Hero: You might have missed my question, but I'd like it answered-Do you have anything to say about your change of posting style?
During Night 1, I felt that I had really been a waste during Day 1 aside from my empty vote, so I felt that I had to be a bit more open. Also, regarding my fishing, that was because the Hero vs. Tenchi argument was losing it's strength (not the best way of describing it), and Hero seemed to be the more aggressive one.
Who else could Hero focus (post 226)?
I'm not too...annoyed (I'm having trouble finding the word(s)) that he was after Hockey, more of him and Tenchi was the worse part.
Also, can someone explain to me what "tunneling" is?Assuming that a no lynch would be bad for the town, who would have been better to lynch on Day 1? Feeres?
Why would you say Feeres? I was defending him on day 1. I don't know who would have been better to lynch. I think the day should've kept going so we could find out more.Assuming that a no lynch would be bad for the town, who would have been better to lynch on Day 1? Feeres?
Rules wrote: All Newbie games have strict 3-week deadlines. Extensions are given only in extreme circumstances.
1. I'm looking at that page right now, and I'm not seeing what you're talking about, be more specific please?Feeres wrote: Hockeyruler:
1.Why did you not check the thread before making a post where you find me suspicious (post 97)?
2.Why did you suddenly decide that it was good idea to vote for CJ when he makes a stupid post (post 136)?
3.Do you mean that the reason why CJ should have been lynched was that if a person would votehop and not give sufficent reasons, we should lynch them just because of that (post 166)?
4.If you agree that lynching an unhelpful/antitown person is justified, then why do you bring up that CJ is probably townie?
5.Do you think tenchi is town (post 209)?
): Anyways, as you'll notice. Hero and Tenchi have been specificaly targetting each other. And has been said before, this doesn't really do much good (Beating a dead horse) Yet the one thing it does do is remove any suspicion of BOTH of them being mafia. And only once has Tenchi gone to L2 because of this. And that was only from a vote from Toledo. However the downsides to this theory are: L2 is pretty serious, they haven't really done anything else, so while it would make them both look innocent as a scum team, they aren't getting any innocent people killed. And the main problem I have is that Tenchi is constantly giving bad reasons for Hero in a sort of defense of himself.This is very true and I think we should pursue it,Feeres wrote:For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.
kikuchiyo:
Why didn't you find CJ suspicious or how did you think his previous actions were townish?I never said he was "townish". Their play seemed "null-tell" leaning scummy. I approved of the lynch, just not how it went down.
Why do you find me to be chock full of bullshit (post 118)?This question is pointless and after the fact. I didn't believe your story. Hence, you are full of bullshit. This question seems forced.
In the last part, you refer to a story of theirs, who are they (post 132)?You.
Why do you say he virtually clears me off suspicion when he only refers to a part of the causes of my suspicion, he even goes on later thinking that I'm suspicious (post 169)?It seemed an odd way to begin the day, attempting to draw suspicion away from someone as opposed to the other way around.
Do you think pursuing Tenchi with his reasoning for lynching CJ along with his early hammer will be useful or what do you think we can learn from it (post 180)?I do not understand this question.I think the premature hammer was scummy. What we learn from it depends on the interactions in thread and what Tenchi flips.Another kind of pointless question here.
Why do you find starting a day by saying who you don't think is suspicious is suspicious (post 180)?It seems backwards. Townies don't know others alignments and should be suspicious of everyone. Eliminating someone so quickly from your suspicion list is poor scum hunting.
What issues did you have with Tenchi and why did you clear him (post 217)?Sorry, when I said the "case is clear" I meant it as "obvious". The case is solid. He hammered early. You can only analyze the same evidence for so long.
Can you give me a list of people you find suspicious, from towniest to scummiest?No, I don't see that as beneficial. I don't feel that anyone is all that "townie" at this point.
If you find there's something wrong with Toledo's case, why aren't you questioning him but just bring him up (post 224)?I think the case on Toledo is actually pretty solid. That's what that post states. I specifically mention the fact that he rolefished and was on the wagon at L-2. The post itself was not directed to him but to others.
Why are you ok with lynching Tenchi so suddenly (post 233)?Why do you mischaracterize my actions here as "sudden" when I have been on Tenchi all day?
Did you find read anything about the pros and cons of hyperclaiming or debate about them at all before making the suggestion (post 233)?It seems to me that the pros outwiegh the cons. I didn't read about them, just thought about them myself after reading it in other games.
What questions would you like Toledo to answer (post 263)?I never ask Toledo to answer questions. Not sure if this is another mischaracterization or not. Why do you think I am referring to "questions when I am clearly not?
QFT. I found Toledo's post suspicious, but the above statement is correct in terms of the wording.feeres wrote:Toledo never said anything about me being cleared. He said most, that is only a major part, of suspicion is gone, cleared was the word Kiku was using and the word which you are using which implies that I'd be 100% clear. It's odd you'd make an argument against him based on a word choice he didn't use.
How does pointing out suspicious behavior like "rolefishing" amount to "sniping" at "minor" details?feeres wrote:For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.
Hm. Maybe they are small things. Sorry guys, but I think I have been pointing out important inconsistencies. Feeres' random FoS was suspicious. Toledo rolefished and somehow tried to paint Feeres as "not suspicious"(I still don't understand why).Tenchi wrote:KIKUCHIYO: She's a bit jumpy on small things, but that could go either way. Start checking if she comes up with BS cases (the first Feeres case I felt was bad).
So why don't you?hockey wrote:I also think feeres brings up an excelent point.
Feeres wrote:
For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.
This is very true and I think we should pursue it,
I hope not too many posts occur before I get back
How well did you read through the thread before making a post-by-post analysis (post 255)?Well - your answer is in the post - I read the entire thread thoroughly making the notes published in 255 as I went.
Why is my first post wifom, when kiku's so apparently town without question (post 255)?You can have a look at my brief discussion with Hero about this - It was the fact you gave two reasons for the one vote, a) it was random and b) it was because he was scummy. That's a (minor) contradiction and kiku spotted it, giving you scummy points and her townie points. I think that answers the question..
Do you have some issues with me which are unanswered (post 255)?Umm.. I have issues with everyone that aren'tresolved, but no, I think mostly there's an answeruspicions of you. I guess the difference is just because something is resolved doesn't make the scumminess go away, and just because there's an answer it doesn't mean I believe it (or believe ALL of it).
Do you think Tenchi is scummy because of his contradictions (post 255)?My primary reason for finding Tenchi scummy is the quicklynch. Hockey has actually contradicted himself to a larger degree, I feel.
Do you think Hockey is scummy because of his reasoning which is against the major opinion (post 255)?I think Hockey is scummy primarily because of his role in the quicklynch, like tenchi, but the active lurking and contradictions in things he says are also causing me to doubt him.
Are you saying Artem's pointing at me would make his NK logical, if I was scum (post 255)?Yes. And I'm fully aware he was pointing at me too, but I have the luxury of knowing my own town-ness. Also at that stage in my notes, you were my No.1 suspect. I also noted that this reasoning is lessened, because it's logical for ANY scum to kill the one, experienced, clearly pro-town player.
hink that someone at L-1 would try to answer to questions the best possible he can, given that everyone says votes equals pressure (post 255)?I think often people at l-1 give up, feel pressured or try to worm out of it with silly reactions, so that's not necessarily true, but it does pressure people and scum are more likely to make mistakes under pressure. It's just important to realise how close you are putting someone to a lynch.
Do you think that it's ok to hammer someone when they are put at L-1 (post 255)?Only after the town has discussed the decision thoroughly. I would take responsibility for hammering someone that we decided was scummy, but I would not hammer nearly as quickly as Tenchi did D1.
Was the wagon on CJ justified in your opinion?
How did I oddly defend Toledo or attack Hero (post 256)?Your post 155 was terrible. There was a huge difference between Hero's vote and Tenchi/Hockey's votes. You seemed to find Hero scummy for just having his vote on CJ at L-2 - that's completely different to L-1 and hammering in a half an hour period. Have a look at my post @ 255, search for your name and you'll see the examples where I didn't like your posts.
Would you say we are better off hunting for the second scum, assuming Hero/Tenchi would have one of the scum (post 256)?If I knew for sure that Hero or Tenchi HAD to be scum, I would attack them because 50% is better than 1/7. However, I don't believe that is definitely true (one of them COULD be scum, not definitely) and either way - we needed to throw a spotlight on all players so that we could find the SECOND scum and so that our power roles (if any) have a chance of making some correct decisions. I think the last few pages of dialog have definitely improved the town's position.
Do you think Hockey is scummy because he is connected to the fast lynching of CJYes, although not exclusively for that reason.
On what grounds?Tenchi wrote:Mod: Request for deadline extension, and sorry for the quad posts.
Toledo never said anything about me being cleared. He said most, that is only a major part, of suspicion is gone, cleared was the word Kiku was using and the word which you are using which implies that I'd be 100% clear. It's odd you'd make an argument against him based on a word choice he didn't use.
I honestly don't feel bad for killing CJ; he was frankly being way to suspicious. At this point, I think that the majority of suspicion to Feeres has been eliminated with the lynching off CJMiller, since he was just a townie and Feeres would have no motivation to give him one less vote if Feeres was scum.
No, I'm not saying that ALL suspicion of Feeres is gone. If he had in fact voted for CJ, then it would have looked like he wanted a quick kill and prevent information from coming. Though I can see why you still have doubts about Feeres; it might have just been a plot to make CJ look more suspicious the next day if he wasn't lynched.
Also at this point, I'm forced to believe that either Tenchi or Hero is scum. Not sure which one is more reasonable and which is scummy though. It should become clearer over the next few real days.
Hero, you seemed rather focused on getting Tenchi at this point with such a temerity (correct me if I used that word in wrong context). You keep on saying that Tenchi voted for CJMiller with prior knowledge that he was in fact a townie. It seems that Tenchi hammered CJ because he could have just been acting. Yet you say that Tenchi knew he was town, and that Tenchi would rather kill a newbie than scum. Though Tenchi only said that he wouldn't let CJ keep on going to the endgame since he was a newb.
I'm beginning to wonder if you (being Hero) are a cop, and you investigated Tenchi and got negative. But the odds of there being a cop and you being it are slim, and I think at this point it's more of a rivalry between you and Tenchi.
Not voting at this point since I'm still not convinced about anyone being scum. Have my suspects though.
This to me is poor logic indeed. Let's assume they were both scum. If they had constructed their little argument, they would almost certainly have gotten one of them lynched today (If I hadn't replaced in that was looking almost certain, I think it's fair to say.) That means that you would be pretty assured that the non-lynched one was town. But then there is night, then another lynch and another night. SoHero/Tenchi The Mob Squad (Great name I know ): Anyways, as you'll notice. Hero and Tenchi have been specificaly targetting each other. And has been said before, this doesn't really do much good (Beating a dead horse) Yet the one thing it does do is remove any suspicion of BOTH of them being mafia. And only once has Tenchi gone to L2 because of this. And that was only from a vote from Toledo.
I disagree entirely. There are two points here. The first is the desire to defnd yourself is fine - theI think Serial mentioned that I've only been popping in when my name has been read, and only to defend myself. I think its pretty natural for me to do that (defending myself atleast) and I think its also a lot more pro-town then Tenchi defending himself and simultaneously attacking Hero.
I think surely there's been enough talk about odd defences, role-fishing and his support of the CJ lynch post-lynch that you couldn't have missed some scummyness coming from Toledo. Kiku, myself, Hero and Tenchi's recent analysis have all found some form of fault or suspicion with Toledo, often with a fair amount of detail. I also called for his lynch and voted him with a list of reasons and suspicious posts in my first major analysis summary post, a pretty prominent post. This seems like an attempt to both distance yourself from Toledo and at the same time clear him of suspicion, both of which are far from successful in my eyes.I know that its been mentioned multiple times that I could be scum with Toledo. Yet I'm not even sure why toledo is being suspected in the first place? Has he said something in D2 thatI've missed? Because I didn't notice anything in Day one.
Finally, this point is relatively weak. For one, it is reasoning through others, which is a pet hate of mine. If you feel that they have a point, look at the posts in detail and find a reason to agree. He's listed no examples of where that's an issue, where kiku has done anything scummy or why he feels the issues she has brought up so far have been scummy. It's just a red herring thrown in that to me seems purely designed to throw us off the scent.I also think feeres brings up an excelent point.
Feeres wrote:
For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.
This is very true and I think we should pursue it,
I think you misinterpreted the post you quoted, because it seems to me you actually agree with his logic hereThis to me is poor logic indeed. Let's assume they were both scum. If they had constructed their little argument, they would almost certainly have gotten one of them lynched today (If I hadn't replaced in that was looking almost certain, I think it's fair to say.) That means that you would be pretty assured that the non-lynched one was town. But then there is night, then another lynch and another night. So why didn't that person die?? Say Tenchi got lynched and flipped scum, everyone thinks Hero is town - then he isn't killed by mafia 2 nights in a row - it makes no sense. Hero is essentially the only confirmed town person, yet he keeps living. I would find that highly worrying, and in a 3 man lylo, I doubt he'd find a win. In addition - that plan is instantly foiled by a cop, and definitely hurt by a doc. When scum put their buddies at risk early on in the game, it's very hard to win.
.Answers to Feeres.To Hero, some answers to his questions.
Question #1: Stepping on your toes as in he is trying to provoke you in to saying something which would make you suspicious.
Yes I think he was trying to do that. I'm not going to hold that against him though.
Question #5: Other people have pointed out that I have a contradiction in my posts, I do not understand what the contradiction is, therefore I wanted to know if you noticed such or not.
I didn't.
Question #6: You say that lynching CJ was partly your fault, do you mean that it was partly your fault because you voted for him or is there something more than that?
Just because I voted for him.
Question #11: I'm referring to you saying that he ignored half of your post, in your opinion, did he ever deal with these inconsistencies you pointed out?
I forget. =/ I don't think so.
Question #12: It's a statement you make in post 174, that there is usually discussion when someone is put at L-1. Earlier though, you said you would have unvoted CJ when he was put at L-1 but you were too slow. It's connected to my earlier question about your opinion if CJ would answer better at L-1 than L-2, that if you agree that someone answers to questions better when they are at dire danger of being lynched, they would actually take the time to respond properly. It's a question which was raised by this post, because if someone puts a person at L-1, woul0d he be right in not expecting a hammer coming but instead there being bunch of discussion, especially that early in to the game?
It's complicated. hockeyruler was fine with the lynch(as he stated and his L-1 says), but there was probably going to be discussion anyways. I was saying it was irresponsible of Tenchi to hammer without giving anyone a chance to voice their opinion or even CJMiller to defend himself. Normally he would be pressured into defending him self more, and Tenchi should've at least given him the chance.
Question #13: I was meaning that do you think you are focusing enough on Tenchi, while not ignoring other people while doing so? Or in other words, are you giving enough attention to other players' scummy actions as well in your opinion?
Probably not, with the exception of hockey.
Question #18: The point was, if I randomly said that I investigated Tenchi and found him scum, then I'd be killed and turn up town, would you suspect Tenchi as being scum because of that?
If you didn't turn up cop then no...
Question #19: This question might be because of my differing views on the L-1 situation. In your opinion if you put someone at L-1, it means that you agree that he is lynched, while I see it more as a way to pressure someone as much as possible. So disregard that question.
Ok.
I am pursuing it! I wanted to get other people's reactions to it and see what they think. As you can also see, earlier in the post I had said I was running out of time. You always seem to jump into the arguement to agree on something but never actually say anything new except with the arguement with feeres. Its just looks like you've been lurking and only replying to agree or to defend yourself. And this whole post that you've said is essentialy just you defending yourself.kikuchiyo wrote:Hm. Maybe they are small things. Sorry guys, but I think I have been pointing out important inconsistencies. Feeres' random FoS was suspicious. Toledo rolefished and somehow tried to paint Feeres as "not suspicious"(I still don't understand why).Tenchi wrote:KIKUCHIYO: She's a bit jumpy on small things, but that could go either way. Start checking if she comes up with BS cases (the first Feeres case I felt was bad).
So why don't you?hockey wrote:I also think feeres brings up an excelent point.
Feeres wrote:
For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.
This is very true and I think we should pursue it,
I hope not too many posts occur before I get backFoS: Hockeyruler.This is your scummiest post yet. This seems to me to be an attempt to deflect suspicion as opposed to defending yourself. In all seriousness, if you guys agree on the fact that I have been focusing on "minor" inconsistencies then I would appreciate a list of some sort. I don't find "rolefishing" to be "minor", nor do I find a premature hammer to be "minor", nor do i find someone clumsily explaining a "random FoS" to be "minor" nor do I find one player drawing suspicion off of another player at the start of a day with little to no reasoning to be "minor".
I do use preview, but that doesn't mean that I checked underneath. I didn't really expect any replies that fast.Feeres wrote: To Hockey, in post 97 you say you didn't even see Kiku's post before you posted yours. Do you use preview or somehow check what has been said in the thread before you post it?
---
What Hockey's post brings to my mind is that he is being a bit dodgy at times, giving these implying analyses to things. Especially, as Kiku has pointed out, the reply to my thing about Kiku's towniness feels like this. What is there to pursue in this statement?
I'm going to have to disagree. They'd been arguing for a quite a while now and nobody really has shown interest except each other, and Toledo. I do agree that overall it doesn't sound very safe, but if they got suspicion off of each other then had the lynch, the result of the lynch would determine who was suspected. And since they would probably be controlling it, they would know who is suspected. And now since as it seems, I'm going to be lynched or Toledo, that would mean the other will PROBABLY get the investigate by the cop (if we have one).Serial wrote:This to me is poor logic indeed. Let's assume they were both scum. If they had constructed their little argument, they would almost certainly have gotten one of them lynched today (If I hadn't replaced in that was looking almost certain, I think it's fair to say.) That means that you would be pretty assured that the non-lynched one was town. But then there is night, then another lynch and another night. So why didn't that person die?? Say Tenchi got lynched and flipped scum, everyone thinks Hero is town - then he isn't killed by mafia 2 nights in a row - it makes no sense. Hero is essentially the only confirmed town person, yet he keeps living. I would find that highly worrying, and in a 3 man lylo, I doubt he'd find a win. In addition - that plan is instantly foiled by a cop, and definitely hurt by a doc. When scum put their buddies at risk early on in the game, it's very hard to win.
If I have defended myself fast it was only by coincidence. And I don't really think that I have. I have been trying to be more active after about a week or 2 of only posting several times. And what you have to also consider is that Tenchi/Hero have been filling the board with their arguement, which is really mostly back and forth and aside from posts of "This isn't helping" there isn't much to say.Serial wrote: I disagree entirely. There are two points here. The first is the desire to defnd yourself is fine - the timing of the defense is suspicious. Hockey has made about 10 posts out of the last 200, and each of them consists of a direct response to Hero's questions/attacks and that is it. No scum hunting, no discussion of the game state or other players, or taking a side in the HvT debate. He just watched and waited then defended himself every now and then. He also wasn't inactive - he defended himself quickly when attacked. That means he was paying attention, just rarely posted. That is a scum tell to me, I don't like that sort of player, I think it's not pro-town at all.
I don't think so - have another look. Also have a look at Hockey's most recent post where he interprets what I said how I meant.Hero764 wrote:I think you misinterpreted the post you quoted, because it seems to me you actually agree with his logic hereThis to me is poor logic indeed. Let's assume they were both scum. If they had constructed their little argument, they would almost certainly have gotten one of them lynched today (If I hadn't replaced in that was looking almost certain, I think it's fair to say.) That means that you would be pretty assured that the non-lynched one was town. But then there is night, then another lynch and another night. So why didn't that person die?? Say Tenchi got lynched and flipped scum, everyone thinks Hero is town - then he isn't killed by mafia 2 nights in a row - it makes no sense. Hero is essentially the only confirmed town person, yet he keeps living. I would find that highly worrying, and in a 3 man lylo, I doubt he'd find a win. In addition - that plan is instantly foiled by a cop, and definitely hurt by a doc. When scum put their buddies at risk early on in the game, it's very hard to win.
Hockey is raising the idea that maybe Tenchi and Hero are scumbuddies. To me this highly unlikely for the reasons listed above and I find it scummy because it's another spanner in the works, another distraction just as we seem to be making some progress.Hockey wrote:I've really tried to read up on all these posts, but I think its probable I'm missing something. Anyways, heres an idea that I was thinking of...
Hero/Tenchi The Mob Squad (Great name I know ): Anyways, as you'll notice. Hero and Tenchi have been specificaly targetting each other. And has been said before, this doesn't really do much good (Beating a dead horse) Yet the one thing it does do is remove any suspicion of BOTH of them being mafia. And only once has Tenchi gone to L2 because of this. And that was only from a vote from Toledo. However the downsides to this theory are: L2 is pretty serious, they haven't really done anything else, so while it would make them both look innocent as a scum team, they aren't getting any innocent people killed. And the main problem I have is that Tenchi is constantly giving bad reasons for Hero in a sort of defense of himself.
I was asking a deadline extension on the grounds of what I underlined.SerialClergyman wrote:Vel-Rahn - I think he expected the deadline to be earlier than it actually is - please correct me if I'm mistaken Tenchi.
We've had a lot to talk about since I replaced in, but I think it's heading towards a decision -maybe if we're still in limbo a day or two out we could talk about an extension then?
I agree that Hero/Tenchi seems unlikely. It seems as though Hockey has gotten to the point of simply tossing out suspicions with little evidence to back it up. Toledo/Hockey is plausible due to their behaviors and conspicuous placement on the day 1 bandwagon. Hockey seems more obvious scum right now, but that may be because Toledo has gone quiet. I am more inclined to vote Hockey of the two for reasons I can share later, but if Toledo has something more to say I suggest they come out and say it. I am still suspicious of Feeres, I don't like the "I'll leave it up to town" post. It is a good way to absolve yourself of responsibility if today's lynch flips town. If we are deciding between Toledo and Hockey, I would like a more concrete answer from Feeres as to who should go first.SerialClergyman wrote:
Hockey is raising the idea that maybe Tenchi and Hero are scumbuddies. To me this highly unlikely for the reasons listed above and I find it scummy because it's another spanner in the works, another distraction just as we seem to be making some progress.
What's conspicuous about Toledo/Hockey day 1 placements in the bandwagon? I'd say that the common "3rd on bandwagon" tell applies to Toledo, but what's the thing with Hockey's vote? In my opinion his vote or placement of the vote was justified when he eventually gave the reasons for it.kikuchiyo wrote:Toledo/Hockey is plausible due to their behaviors and conspicuous placement on the day 1 bandwagon. Hockey seems more obvious scum right now, but that may be because Toledo has gone quiet
Suspicious because of that? Uh, ok. As you can see now, I am thinking that Toledo should go first. I see that the case towards both Hockey and Toledo is similarly strong, yet Hockey has been more suspicious lately while Toledo has been quiet. I have been strongly suspicious of Toledo for some time now, that's why I voted for him instead of Hockey.kikuchiyo wrote:I am still suspicious of Feeres, I don't like the "I'll leave it up to town" post. It is a good way to absolve yourself of responsibility if today's lynch flips town. If we are deciding between Toledo and Hockey, I would like a more concrete answer from Feeres as to who should go first.