Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[fhqwhgads]

Winning scum last game
Townies swinging from the trees

vote: RedCoyote

[fhqwhgads]

Knowing his play style permitted me to see
that silence is not usually indicative of RC.
The thing you should keep in mind about Red,
is the way he fills, with walls o' text, a thread,
but he might just have needed to use all his time
to get all that words he is writing to rhyme!

I thus give him time till weekend has passed,
before I accuse him of being half-arsed.
The rest of our voting is random at best,
but perhaps now, we should try to find a pest!
don_johnson was quick to show his suspicion
perhaps it might be a distractive decision?

[fhqwhgads]

At last, the rhymes done,
but it certainly was fun...

Seriously though,
the biggest thing for me so far is budja's third vote. Well, he got tongues wagging, but now you gotta follow through buddy.

I do find it interesting that Red Coyote is trying to cover for him.

I think this is a bit of a reach.

[fhqwhgads]

I'm mostly with RC here (damn, again?! How do you do it? )

I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here...

...speaking of which, if he IS the scapegoat, I find it interesting that Goatrevolt is pushing him the hardest. It by no means is a scumtell, but if Budja just made a mistake (and taking Spolium's word for it, not for the first time), your case on him can be used as a misdirection by scum.

I think the ones we should be looking at, are the lurkers. If we are just townies fighting among ourselves, the ones winning is scum lurking and waiting for us to string up one of our own.

[fhqwhgads]

I'm WAY out of this game, reading and will post then.

[fhqwhgads]

Ok,

Listen, seeing as it is a HUGE part of discussion, I'm going to give an explanation for my post on Budja:

I said that his retraction seemed sincere and thus his scummyness was lowered in my opinion. I also didn't really believe all the arguments against him was from scum alone. Goat just stood out because he was pushing the hardest at that time (I'm sorry if you think I implied you were scum). I do think everyone has ignored the fact that spolium pointed out his gameplay was verified by his meta. This was also one of the bases of my argument that we shouldn't tunnel on Budja, which I felt was happening at the time.

On the coaching front, I can see why you say that, but it certainly wasn't intentional. It was more of a challenge to Budja to defend himself more. This, in my opinion is a GOOD thing, because if he really is scum, it gives us more chance to catch a slip or a logical fallacy. Just accepting him as town at that time would have been more of a mistake, in my opinion.

Regarding the ice/spolium/goat debate. I'm kinda seeing both of their points. Goat's interpretations of my actions are valid, hence me trying to clear it up. Spolium read me pretty spot on and most of his arguments about my actions are spot on, hence I'm not going to repeat them here.

However, the argument about ice's dismissal of spolium's case perked my interest. I see the argument that he's not really being scummy of ignoring it if he stated he's going to ignore it, but the fact that he dismissed the WHOLE argument as OMGUS (which I believe is wrong) is what really makes piques my interest.

On another note, I probably should remove my random vote;

Unvote

[fhqwhgads]

FHQ, why did you try to shift the current focus to pursuing the lurkers.

Look, I wasn't generally trying to shift the focus in as much as it was starting to feel like everyone was hyper focussing on Budja. I was in no way trying to give him a free pass, I just found that some people were just floating by, not even contributing to the Budja argument and thought we should at least call them out to get their opinion.

[fhqwhgads]

Again, I was just thinking that everyone was on Budja's case a bit harshly. Or more to the point, at that moment it didn't seem to me like a lynchable offence.

The reason I mentioned Goat and lurkers were because it was so early game, I didn't have a lot of other suspicions either. I thought a bit of pressure would do no harm. Goat jumped on me (understandable), but again, I didn't outright call him scum. I could ask why he was so defensive on such a small push, but I suppose if my comment was seen as scummy and names are being dropped, it is a 'normal' reaction.

On another note, spring really is pain at the moment. Risking the same reaction as before, I have almost no read on her, due to her refusing to add anything useful to discussion. I suppose that makes her lean on the scummy side, but again, having such a limited read makes it 45-55% chance that she's scum.

The other problem is that no one else really jumps out at me. If you're gonna push me, I have to say don_johnson's 'fear' of L-1 is a bit much. The argument why that's not necessarily a problem has been made and one has to wonder if he's just trying very hard to do the 'townie thing'.

[fhqwhgads]

Urgh,

Wall o text, I'm going to be honest and say I only read the notes on me, and the conclusions on the rest. I have to say, at least you're playing along now, and knows what is going on in the game (it seems almost better than I do). I can't say I like your gameplay so far, but I can't fault your grasp of the game in that post.

The only problem really is, although it is a good summary, it contains very little content in the sense where anyone can question your motives (for good or bad); I might be wrong on that, should read the notes on the others as well, but I can't say you're making it easy for me.

Which makes me even more confused of where to go with my vote. I'm rather hoping Ice is going to say something soon, he's been IMA since the "I'm not responding to your OMGUS" argument.

If something good doesn't come soon, I'm going to have to seriously re-evaluate everyone in this game.

[fhqwhgads]

I also understand that you have given us written word that you would be willing to lynch any of those 3. However, there is a large difference in willingness to lynch, and actually voting someone to move towards a lynch. Saying you're willing to lynch people is pretty meaningless without actually making any effort to do so.

QFT

In fact, what she's doing is making herself open to jump on the bandwagon of one of the three people that ironically are among some of the most suspected at the moment. Being non-committal makes it easy for her to backtrack in various ways later.

Also, reading further it seems Spring really made quite a few mistakes (admittedly, she did accept some) in her analysis. While this might be no biggie in insolation, seeing as this is her big 'comeback' post after openly and arrogantly lurking in this game, it IS significant. Also, making such a huge textwall and also cross referencing all over the place with rather telegram style comments makes it VERY difficult to go check the validity of her points.

Also, RC's "Oh nice, you're off the hook" pinged my radar a bit...

[fhqwhgads]

Budja and FHQ who are your top candidates for a lynch. Who are you most willing to lynch and what is holding you back from laying your vote on that person?

Speaking for myself, at the time of my previous post, the vote count wasn't up yet, and I felt cautious to vote until I know what the standings are.

Thing is, my suspicions earlier in this game was mostly 'fishing' to see responses, rather than having something solid. That being said, I rather like my feeling on spring at the moment, so I feel confident to

vote: springlullaby

.

That makes more sense to me than to assume she just drew up all these notes in a few minutes and used her lurking as some sort of ploy to look like a crappy townie.

You know, I agreed initially with the way you feel about SL. Directly after her post, my feelings toward her were much more positive. But I didn't study her post thoroughly and only focused on the things she accentuated. This is exactly what I think she tried to do with that post. Reading back the responses about the amount of mistakes she made, it seems to me these 'notes' weren't made during the game, but rather after the fact.

[fhqwhgads]

1. Your first attack is unfair, you shouldn't be concerned over whether my suspects are "among some of the most supected at the moment", but whether you think I'm justified in thinking them scummy.

I'm just observing that you, in your original post, gave vague reasons on all three people being pursued by the majority without really putting your money where your mouth is.

2. What IS significant and in which way? The second accusation is rather vague, what my being arrogant or not has to do with anything?

What IS significant to me, is the fact that I interpreted that these are your notes you have made during the game (feel free to correct me). Your 'lurker' posts continually spewed things like "There's nothing for me to say, so I'm not saying anything", yet your notes DO contain content during these periods. Again, I feel these 'notes' were made after the fact, which is evident in the number of 'minor' mistakes you made, some of which now should alter your view on some people, which leads me to the next question:

Who are your top subjects NOW? and why?

3. Well, it is difficult only if you are lazy enough. Lynching me because you feel to lazy to verify my say is pretty crappy I think.

Ok, fine, I am lazy because I don't have the time to cross reference every telegram style comment you've made with all the posts you mentioned. I'll concede to that if you concede that your post is needlessly difficult to analyse. Lazy or not, the size of that post alone makes it easier for things to slip by in the sheer volume of it all.

How is it good for town to make your arguments difficult to verify?

[fhqwhgads]

RC, jump to conclusions much?

My "it was rather made after the fact" does NOT mean "she made it up"

My point, and someone already made it, i forget who, is that she first tried to brashly not take part in the game. When that strategy started to fail, she obviously reread the thread and threw together that post, selling it to us as her 'notes she made during the game'.

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument that she could have made that post up. What is there to make up? It was supposed to be an analysis, the mistakes in the post has been caught by mainly the people it was made against and quite a few she acknowledged. She either makes very sloppy notes, or she did a once off reread and attempted to do the whole thing at once.

All in all, your staunch defense of SL is disturbing to me. She can defend herself well enough, and should.

Speaking of which. Notch another one up for

deadline extension support

.

[fhqwhgads]

Damn, lost a post when my PC crashed:

I think we all need to take a step back and analyze this, because I'm concerned this rush of sudden suspicion on me is absolutely scum-ridden.

Possible... but I have to say, I'm rather warming up to the case against you. Spring isn't any less scummy to me ATM, but you certainly are getting scummier to me.

Fine, I take your point about your 'defending' of spring, but the matter of the fact is that you DO talk a LOT about her, and not much else. Also, most of your shooting down arguments are 'I don't believe that.' At one point you even questioned the 'errors' she made when she already admitted them!

At the moment this leads to one of 2 scenarios for me. Your spring's partner and is trying to protect her, or you KNOW spring's alignment already.

Moreover, I've said that lynching spring is acceptable today. Granted, I think that would be a bad move on the town's part, because I certainly don't think she's the most scummy player here, but spring has no one but herself to blame for ignoring the game as she hasn't given anyone an acceptable excuse of her behavior other than "deal with it".

This leads me to believe point 2 above, rather than point one. Hey, that's cake you have there, eating it too I see?

Either way, both paths above leads me to believe it might be a better move to change my vote.

Unvote

[fhqwhgads]

Crap. I totally misread Budja. I really thought he was town.

[fhqwhgads]

At one point you even questioned the 'errors' she made when she already admitted them!

Where?

I'd be more open to your side of the argument if you could point to some specifics where the notes just seem totally offbase, but frankly it's hard from me to criticize someone's shorthand as they follow the game. She said it herself these were her own personal notes about each post as the game flowed.

Granted, in my memory this stood out as more solid than it really is, I just found it funny that right after she admitted mistakes that you were downplaying them. Also there were some VERY specific posts before that where people were calling her out about it.

[fhqwhgads]

Option 3: you are scum, there is no doctor and you orchestrated the doc claim/counter claim and the subsequent no kill to throw people off the scent.

I find this highly unlikely. I'd much rather suspect that scum decided to leave the doc alive, as seeing spring already had quite a large body of suspicion on her, hoping town would bite. I think either spring's protect worked, or scum deliberately didn't kill to make spring thing her protect worked? (Don't know what would be gained by the last case though)

I just felt Don tried to look Pro-town by being the "champion" of continuing discussion perhaps to make up for not being on the Budja scum wagon.

Excellent point.

What say you!?

Really? A policy lynch? In the position town is now?

FOS: Deuxieme Octopus

The fact that Spring countered so quickly is also telling to me. I'd think scum would wait a little while to see if the real doc would counterclaim before throwing their own fake counterclaim in there.

QFT

I still refuse to concede that. A townie having an opinion on another player does not necessarily have to always mean a defensive/offensive position. My intentions were clear, I thought spring seemed more likely town than other candidates, but, based on policy, I would accept her lynch.

If you're being sincere, I think you are making a mistake. Not worrying about looking scummy is one thing, but nitpicking on definitions of something to make it seem more town is another.

[fhqwhgads]

But who in fact is guility of being wrong? hmmmm

wth?

[fhqwhgads]

Urgh, this game is stagnating.

atm I'm torn between DO for his absurd 'policy vote' suggestion and RC.

RC, I just don't buy your 'opinion vs defense' argument (or is that just my opinion?). Personally I think you would have looked much better if you just conceded on being on the defense for spring. This justification of your defense that isn't one is just doesn't work for me.

[fhqwhgads]

Is that really all your basing your vote on today?

What vote?

Why aren't these statements contradictory?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misunderstand me. I say you would look better if you

CONCEDE

that you defended spring. I'm not saying you'd look good or that I like the fact that you are defending her, but I am willing to give you town points for admitting as much. Or let me rephrase that: I am willing not to give you any more scum points.

Seriously, I find it strange you call me out on that. I think you are smart enough to know what I meant.

Can you explain?

I changed my mind? Initially I thought it to be a fair argument, but looking back and reading the back and forth, I get much more the feeling of you backpeddling.

[fhqwhgads]

Don, I have no reason not to believe your claim, and I think you shouldn't read that anything into that flavour regarding RC's stance.

All we get out of this is that no one targeted RC last night. Not surprising really.

[fhqwhgads]

Again I ask. There's no reason not to say, unless you're not actually a doc.

What? Really? Do you stand by that statement?

[fhqwhgads]

Firstly, I'm not going to apologize for my 'protection' of Budja. I believed he was town being scapegoated and believed he was town up until he's slip. If being wrong makes me scummy, then vote away.

SL: Damnit, if I did't put any value in your claim I would be so gunning for you right now. Your play style leaves me cold.

Re Protection, I find it odd that you protected Spolium, because I had the idea that you didn't think he was town. Still, I still hold on enough to your claim to accept this claim and thus it makes spolium even lower on my scumdar (he was pretty low to begin with)

FOS: Jebus

for pushing the doc results though. Playing ignorant doesn't fool me, the reasons for withholding has been discussed earlier in this thread (although not at length).

Vote: DO

. You try to policy lynch the claimed doc, and when that fails you disappear. Talk. Now.

[fhqwhgads]

Unvote

then.

[fhqwhgads]

FHQ, I'd like to know for sure what your stance is on Red. Is he scummy or not to you? Is he in your top suspects still after Don's watcher claim?

I still find Red a bit scummy, but the watcher claim has put these suspicious somewhat on the backburner. I mean, the results doesn't exonerate him, but I'd feel he could be kept around a bit longer.

It is an easy thing to vote for an extension if people are so willing, you guys are so fucking lazy.

Hahaha. I'm just going to laugh at this statement.

The whole Spring/sekinj discussion is exhausting. I'm only in the middle of reading it, but my advice to sekinj is to drop it. Spring is proving her own point by making me want to vote her everytime she posts something, even though she's ALMOST confirmed town. Hence her lurking is a good thing. It's making me less inclined to vote her off.

OMG Jebus claim:

1) Would explain his pushing of Spring's results
2) I find spring entertaining his claim intriguing

Jebus' protection claim doesn't add up though. I heavily doubt Spring would be scum target number 1. In fact, if his claim is correct, why would he protect someone who counterclaimed a role he KNOWS is false. This makes no sense.

Jebus: You thought Spring was a townie falseclaiming??

[fhqwhgads]

@fhq - why wouldn't spring be scum target #1 as the (then) only claimed doc?

Hmm, good point. Yes conceded, but still, doc protecting doc? OMG, we have a paradox. (AFTER POST EDIT: It seems that multi doc's is possible, so I'll entertain this...)

I gave it a 20% chance, and thought it a decent move because of the possibility of a scum no-kill.

And for now, I just feel like we need to go somewhere now, and I'd already messed up, so I claimed. I do think DO knew ahead of time that Spring was not a doc, he was the one who suggested that scum did that gambit.

WHAT? Please elaborate on this, because to me this makes no sense at all.

why in regards to the bolded statement, please?

As mentioned above, I retract that statment; wasn't thinking straight when I posted that.

Keeping the possibility of two docs in mind, couldn't they cross protect each other?

Sure, but that would also make them useless to town to get further info. But it could screw with an endgame scenario...

[fhqwhgads]

I have to say, while I am uncomfortable with the 2 doc theory, the only way for it not to be true in my mind (and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong) is that both of them had chance to communicate outside of the thread to confirm their rhyme schemes. This almost certainly would mean they both are scum.

Three scum claiming doc in one game without a real counterclaim? That's just TOO far fetched to me. All those pushing that the 2 doc claim is false should elaborate on how they think this could be possible.

[fhqwhgads]

So, and I know spring won't have and problem with this (lol), it might be best that spring, Jebus, and don stay quiet and all ultimately make their own decisions about who to use their powers on.

I concur.

May I refer you to this middle section of my post 606 with the question of how you don't think my 2nd and 3rd options are valid?

Counter question then. How do you discount the 'similarity' of the rhyming sequences of their role PM's?

I don't see this as a likely scenario. You're suggesting that the scum doc countered the scum role blocker? Or that the scum doc countered the real doc on day 2? The first situation seems unlikely because then both scum power roles would be outed and under severe scrutiny. The second is also unlikely because I highly doubt that the scum would trade their mafia doc for the real doc after losing a member day 1. Both just seem so improbable to me. I just don't see any strong possiblity of a scum doc being one of our claimed docs.

QFT

[fhqwhgads]

That's not good enough for me.

That's a fair opinion, but if you look back, Jebus basically gave the final word in his poem away without directly quoting it. Thats quite compelling to me. Also, your statement 'I don't think it would be too hard to just say, "Hey, I got a poem with such-and-such rhyme scheme, what about you?" "Yeah I had something similar." ' deliberately makes the statements made seem less significant. They were more specific than that.

By no means do I view it as hard evidence, but I'm not going to discount it either.

[fhqwhgads]

Why does it seem like you bring up a point, then post a line that somewhat softens your attack. Like with Goat earlier this game. Are you deliberately not trying to get on anybody's bad side? And why does it seem that you never follow up on your suspicions with a vote or some sort of pressure? Both your suspicion of Spring and RC have gone no where really. Do you find your playstyle consistently this hesitant or do you feel it's just this game? I'd like to hear your top three candidates especially to know where you stand.

Wel, what I am trying to do is get a sincere answer from RC. Shooting first, asking questions later is not the way I roll.

By no means do I view it as hard evidence, but I'm not going to discount it either.

Well, you view it as evidence enough not to consider there is just one Doctor through, correct?

And it seems like I'm not going to get a direct answer. Yes. I do believe we PROBABLY have two docs. My mind is not unmovable though.

Lynx, I don't use lists to define most scummy to least scummy. But ok, if you do want something:

1. DO: replacement doesn't convince me otherwise yet.
2. RC: He seems to go from scummy to townie depending on the way he posts. He was going well until he stubbornly refuses to answer my direct question and played down the point I made.


The rest are much to close to each other in the general mishmash to single anyone out.

[fhqwhgads]

I mean, what's to stop Jebus from simply telling spring, "lol ya that's what I had too >.>" and just completing bsing all the rest?

But that isn't what happened.

[fhqwhgads]

*Rises from the grave*

Not really.

Initial reaction:

There is only one scum group, and I'm not convinced there are two Doctors. I believe don. I'm going to need a good reason not to want to lynch spring today.

I will give a better post later.

Hmm... this is tough. I want to agree with you here. Although I have to point out that Don's role is still pretty unconfirmed. Also his alignment, regardless of his role.

But the poetry thing really won me over (like that dead guy, fhqwhgads, said yesterday. You know, the town one who had no scum agenda). I think you (RC) have played down that info too much. Getting the meter right might be easy to fake, but rhyming words? That's one hell of a coincidence.

[fhqwhgads]

Second reason is a bit of wifom, but worth mentioning: Why would scum target jebus? If I were scum, I would assume that even a best case scenario, the kill would fail due to protection from the other doc. Worst case scenario, a scum would be caught making the kill by the watcher. To me, this seems like a textbook example where scum should've tried to kill someone who had no chance of being protected or watched, unless the scum knows that don is not a watcher.

I agree this is wifom, but it's not bad. In fact, I think you do make a relevant point.

Ok, I've had enough.

Vote sekinj.

OMGUS much?

And to make it clear, my modkill demand is serious and is separate from my case against sekinj.

No it isn't.

Actually no.

MOD: I demand modkill of sekinj.

---

see? I can throw crap logic around as well. That doesn't make it true.

[wifom] The moral is, if I were the scum, I would have targeted Jebus on the chance that Spring was going to go do her own thing and not follow the plan discussed[/wifom]

Yeah... erm. You see, the problem I have now, is I have to disregard both your and Spring's arguments against each other, because there is some indeterminate amount of personal opinion involved.

I don't see a reason town you would make such offensive, false accusations and I think you are scum antagonizing me on purpose, trying to use appeal to emotion.

No. Fail. That other dead guy, fhqwhgads also commented on your play style more than once in a similar vein. We all know what alignment he turned out to be. Stop taking this personally. If your we think your play sucks and you disagree, leave it there. This isn't scumhunting, it's a personal feud. See my previous point.

[fhqwhgads]

...so I explained why Spring was lurking at the back of my mind.

At least we have evidence that your mind is anchored in reality.

The difference between yourself and sekinj is that you have reproached me my playstyle, but when I told you that you could stuff it because this was the way I was going to play, you stopped the pointless bickering.

Point taken, but that does not mean I changed my opinion.

What in sekinj's play do you think is town beside her attacks on me?

Putting words in my mouth much?

Yeah... erm. You see, the problem I have now, is I have to disregard both your and Spring's arguments against each other, because there is some indeterminate amount of personal opinion involved.

I don't think she's town. I don't know, because what she is saying gives me no read at all. I do agree that she should drop it and deal with it. The rest of us did. And despite that, we're one mafia member down. Let's focus on what is important here.

The only thing anti-town I have done is spend way too much time responding to you. However, I do beleive it has made a ripe bed for scumhunting. Look at RC for example. His jump on my wagon I found very supicous.

Excuse me if I feel that came out of nowhere. Please elaborate.

[fhqwhgads]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to ask for a replacement.

Getting married this week and then I'll be away for 2 weeks.

[fhqwhgads]

Only caught up reading now. Wow. Even reading after the fact, the almost no-lynch on day 3 had me shitting bricks!

What a game for my first mini!

Oh and I totally KNEW don was scum when I replaced in for ice and I thought I was the watcher. Until Ice himself later dropped the power role pair theory. I totally thought he was off the hook.

Congrats mafia... we'll get you next time.