Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

By no means do I view it as hard evidence, but I'm not going to discount it either.

Well, you view it as evidence enough not to consider there is just one Doctor through, correct?

[fhqwhgads]

Why does it seem like you bring up a point, then post a line that somewhat softens your attack. Like with Goat earlier this game. Are you deliberately not trying to get on anybody's bad side? And why does it seem that you never follow up on your suspicions with a vote or some sort of pressure? Both your suspicion of Spring and RC have gone no where really. Do you find your playstyle consistently this hesitant or do you feel it's just this game? I'd like to hear your top three candidates especially to know where you stand.

Wel, what I am trying to do is get a sincere answer from RC. Shooting first, asking questions later is not the way I roll.

By no means do I view it as hard evidence, but I'm not going to discount it either.

Well, you view it as evidence enough not to consider there is just one Doctor through, correct?

And it seems like I'm not going to get a direct answer. Yes. I do believe we PROBABLY have two docs. My mind is not unmovable though.

Lynx, I don't use lists to define most scummy to least scummy. But ok, if you do want something:

1. DO: replacement doesn't convince me otherwise yet.
2. RC: He seems to go from scummy to townie depending on the way he posts. He was going well until he stubbornly refuses to answer my direct question and played down the point I made.


The rest are much to close to each other in the general mishmash to single anyone out.

[Rhinox]

1. DO: replacement doesn't convince me otherwise yet.

Just out of curiousity, what exactly am I supposed to convince you of? What has DO done thats scummy besides suggesting to lynch a claimed doc?

The way I see it, suggesting something and doing something are 2 different things - I don't know what DO's true intentions were, or if he seriously wanted to lynch the claimed doc. I know I have made similar crazy suggestions in the past just to spark a hypothetical discussion to see how people would react.

Bigger post coming today, just wanted to throw that out there for now.

[Spolium]

The way I see it, suggesting something and doing something are 2 different things - I don't know what DO's true intentions were, or if he seriously wanted to lynch the claimed doc. I know I have made similar crazy suggestions in the past just to spark a hypothetical discussion to see how people would react.

I recall that you cited various examples of DO coming across as scummy despite being town (essentially highlighting poor play to explain his actions), and you later prompted others for their thoughts on his meta.

With this in mind, why are you now implying that DO's controversial suggestion may have been a deliberate attempt to guage reactions? Why do you think, all of a sudden, that DO could have been using his initiative, given your earlier stance on his play? If DO was trying to guage reactions, why would he simply replace out with minimal comment about the affair?

It looks like you're just trying out different justifications for DO's behaviour in the hope that one of them gets you off the hook.

The way I see it, suggesting something and doing something are 2 different things

DO

suggested

lynching Spring and he

did

place a vote on her, both in the same post. What do you make of this?

[Rhinox]

FHQ:

Not too sure what to think. It seems he goes back and forth a bit with his suspicions, especially with RC. Makes me wonder how genuine or serious his suspicions are right now. All in all though, nothing here that would cause me to push for his lynch at this point. Couple questions I have:

Really? A policy lynch? In the position town is now? FOS: Deuxieme Octopus

So what position does the town have to be in before a policy lynch is acceptable?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All we get out of this is that no one targeted RC last night. Not surprising really.

I still find Red a bit scummy, but the watcher claim has put these suspicious somewhat on the backburner. I mean, the results doesn't exonerate him, but I'd feel he could be kept around a bit longer.

I don't follow how RC being watched leads to you shelving your suspicions of RC... Why does RC not being targeted make him a less desireable lynch choice, in your opinion?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sekinj:

Not too sure here either. I think SL's attack on sekinj was rather silly, but throughout that entire exchange I felt that sekinj was content to just argue back and for with SL instead of scumhunting. Seemed like a way to remain active without actually having to do anything. I also don't like the ad hom attacks.

After the second Doc claim, thats when sekinj's comments peaked my interest the most. First she wanted to speculate about what the setup would have to be to balance to docs. Then she suggested a massclaim, but backpedaled out of it by saying it was probably a bad idea. I think she contradicted herself at one point:

Let's think about what the make-up of scum woudl have to be in order to balance 2 docs...I think if we have two docs, we have to have two scum groups... expecially if you throw a town watcher in there as well...

thoughts?

and two scum parties doesn't make the scum stronger anyway, it is more in favor of the town, sicne their power is split up and they are sometimes working against each other.

-first quote seems to imply that 2 scum groups makes the scum more powerful to counteract the 2 docs; second quote refutes that.

Also, as someone pointed out, the presence of a mafia GF does not have any effect on balance vs. 2 docs and a watcher. Only a cop, and possibly a vig or sk if the GF is also UNK.

So basically, I find sekinj scummier than fhq, and I would support either of their lynches over my own obviously. But absent the presence of a deadline, and with no one yet being close to a lynch today, I don't really see anything in either fhq's play or sekinj's play that jumps out as being automatically lynchworthy. So I'll be taking my time and considering other players.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the 2 doc situation - it has been brought up that 1 might be a mafia doc. A mafia doc would really only be beneficial as a scum PR if there is a town vig, or a second scum group/sk. Otherwise, a mafia doc is useless. Just pointing this out because it will effect how we interpret things later on.

[Rhinox]

I recall that you cited various examples of DO coming across as scummy despite being town (essentially highlighting poor play to explain his actions), and you later prompted others for their thoughts on his meta.

With this in mind, why are you now implying that DO's controversial suggestion may have been a deliberate attempt to guage reactions? Why do you think, all of a sudden, that DO could have been using his initiative, given your earlier stance on his play? If DO was trying to guage reactions, why would he simply replace out with minimal comment about the affair?

It looks like you're just trying out different justifications for DO's behaviour in the hope that one of them gets you off the hook.

The point is that there are countless explanations I could come up with for DO's suggestion. Since I know DO's role is town, the explanation doesn't matter to me. Upon rereading, and knowing DO's role, my explanation is modifying. In absence of any context, I would say suggesting to lynch a claimed doc with no counterclaims, especially after this particular claimed doc counterclaimed a scum fake claim, would be a pretty stupid idea for a townie to make. Of course, I don't see how it would benefit scum to make such a suggestion either. Thus, my post about how DO is prone to bad play as town.

Upon a more complete reread, I can start adding in "or" situations. Such as, "OR, DO was trying to see how players would react." - "OR, maybe DO just didn't believe SL's claim and didn't communicate the message very well." - "OR, maybe DO knew he had to replace out and was trying to be an ass and screw with the town by intentionally playing anti-town". I'm not DO, so I can't just have 1 explanation for his play that I know to be the correct explanation.

(directed at everyone)

If you view DO's suggestion as scummy and a lynchable offense, it shouldn't matter what I say, because nothing I can say will be able to change that. If you don't view DO's suggestion as that scummy, or don't see it as a lynchable offense, then again, whatever I say, or how many explanations that are, won't matter.

Of course, I'm going to say whatever I need to say to prevent my own lynch. Contrary to the popular, oppertunistic belief, self-preservation is not a scum tell. It supports my win-con to not be lynched, regardless of which allignment I have. It only becomes a scumtell if you think I would be willing to settle for an "anybody but me" lynch. But I'll come up with as many hypothetical reasons as I have to for why town-DO would make the suggestion he did.

Can you give me one reason for why it would be beneficial for a scum player to suggest to lynch a claimed uncounterclaimed doc?

DO suggested lynching Spring and he did place a vote on her, both in the same post. What do you make of this?

Would you agree that had some players agreed with DO's plan and a bandwagon formed on spring, that scum could have been found?

[sekinj]

Does anyone have anything against DO/Rhinox except DO wanting to lynch spring?

That move just strikes me as a replacement wanting to stir up trouble or being bored, or not wanting to read the whole game, ectetera. Does one scumtell a scum make? and to throw a little wifom on the fire - why would scum be that stupid?

[sekinj]

@Rhinox - I'm sure I have contradicted myself while speculating about the setup. I'm just trying to brainstorm, and as I think about it and as others bring up points, some possibilities are ruled out and other possibilities are re-thought.

[Spolium]

Can you give me one reason for why it would be beneficial for a scum player to suggest to lynch a claimed uncounterclaimed doc?

Well, at the time some other players seemed uncertain about Spring's claim, to the point of being suspicious; an inexperienced scum player might have tried to take the opportunity to start a bandwagon under the premise of getting information from a lynch, or was perhaps prompted to say something controversial so his scumbuddies look would look good by being critical of it. Maybe he did it to test the water, planning to WIFOM his way out of it later.

DO suggested lynching Spring and he did place a vote on her, both in the same post. What do you make of this?

Would you agree that had some players agreed with DO's plan and a bandwagon formed on spring, that scum could have been found?

What has this got to do with my question? You were defending DO's actions on the basis of there being an appreciable difference between suggesting something and doing something. I wondered if you could clarify the relevance of this in light of the fact that DO did both, not ask me a vague counter-question which could apply to

any

controversial vote made by town

or

scum in

any

game of mafia.

[Rhinox]

Does anyone have anything against DO/Rhinox except DO wanting to lynch spring?

That move just strikes me as a replacement wanting to stir up trouble or being bored, or not wanting to read the whole game, ectetera. Does one scumtell a scum make? and to throw a little wifom on the fire - why would scum be that stupid?

Feel like I'm being accused of something here, but I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Would you mind clarifying for me?

Well, at the time some other players seemed uncertain about Spring's claim, to the point of being suspicious; an inexperienced scum player might have tried to take the opportunity to start a bandwagon under the premise of getting information from a lynch, or was perhaps prompted to say something controversial so his scumbuddies look would look good by being critical of it. Maybe he did it to test the water, planning to WIFOM his way out of it later.

Well, I did ask for some reasons scum-DO would make the suggestion. Problem is, I don't see these as likely scenarios. I'll maybe give you the first 1. 2nd or 3rd scenarios don't really seem plausible after just losing a RB, as both situations involve intentially doing something to arouse suspicion. I don't see the first scenario likely either for similar reasons, but I don't think it'll do any good to argue it.

What has this got to do with my question? You were defending DO's actions on the basis of there being an appreciable difference between suggesting something and doing something. I wondered if you could clarify the relevance of this in light of the fact that DO did both, not ask me a vague counter-question which could apply to any controversial vote made by town or scum in any game of mafia.

Because I can't really give an answer to your question. On the surface, DO suggested to lynch SL, and SL wasn't lynched. Thus, what was suggested wasn't followed through. Realizing that answer is kind of a cop out, an acceptable answer would require me to know what DO's intentions were. Since I don't, the only thing I can do is guess.

Since I know DO is town, if he really wanted to lynch SL, then he disbelieved the claim so much that he felt a lynch was justified. If he didn't really want to lynch SL and was just trying to catch scum, then he wasn't intending to follow through with the lynch, and the vote was an attempt to motivate scum into bandwagoning on.

The problem with that answer is its exactly the same answer you'd expect me to give whether I was town or scum, which makes the answer almost as worthless as the question.

[sekinj]

@rhinox - I'm saying ppl only have 1 thing against you and that's one stupid thing DO did. I don't think one stupid thing by a repalcement who was obviously not interested in playing the game should make you scum. I'm asking if anyone has anything except that against you.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Sekinj I'll say it again, but I didn't like his L-1 vote. No one else has said anything about it really. DO layed down the vote with no explanation behind it. His justification for this was that he didn't want to rehash arguments. He should have at least pointed out which facts that he was in agreement with and what he found suspicious. His only point was really was that the case on Budja was "self-evident" . The timing and way he went about it lead me to believe it to be a bus.

And I don't like his response to my suspicion here:

DO- Out of all the people on the wagon of Budja, i feel like DO is the most likely to have bussed Budja. He layed down the L-1 vote with little to coment on besides the fact that Budja was pretty obviously scummy. I think, At this point, it was pretty apparent that Budja was gonna be the lynch candidate of the day after my vote. So DO had no trouble dropping the deadweight that Budja had become. His proposal today to lynch the uncountered doctor is pretty scummy. I think it could have just been a poor townie proposal as well though.

Any reasons I posted for voting Budja would have been redundant. Of course there's a good amount of WIFOM in what I'm going to say but, if I was scum would I drop a heavy vote like that without giving at least a paragraph or two of bullshit to prop it up? I could have at least taken the time to quote a few of the others on the bandwagon and then reiterated them. But I did not. The case against Budja was so self-apparent, and I really shouldn't even have to defend it since, hey guess what he was scum. I think if anything, what you claimed was scummy in my vote was the least scummy aspect of it.

If I was scum wouldn't I quote others and reiterate them? I think thats one really bad defense for his vote. Even worse is the him saying he shouldn't have to defend it because Budja turned up scum. Yeah, like scum never vote for their partners

I'm not as suspicious of the doc lynching idea which everyone else has built their suspicion around. I think that could easily have been presented by a poor townie. It by no means helps my view of his alignment though.

[RedCoyote]

2. RC: He seems to go from scummy to townie depending on the way he posts. He was going well until he stubbornly refuses to answer my direct question and played down the point I made.

How did I refuse to answer your question? I thought I made it pretty clear, I don't give the rhyming matching as much credence as you do. I feel as though every player got a rhyming role PM and that anyone could've put in their PM and said, "My rhyming words were bore, snore and my scheme was ABCB".

I mean, what's to stop Jebus from simply telling spring, "lol ya that's what I had too >.>" and just completing bsing all the rest?

Moreover, I don't see how the mafia is supposed to counter a fierce town like ours in the instance of two Doctors. Sure, they had a Roleblocker, but what else?

Now the sanity argument is a different thing, because there are so many branches to that that I can't rightfully discount that possibility.

But as far as having two sane Doctors goes, I'm very hesitant to believe it.

[fhqwhgads]

I mean, what's to stop Jebus from simply telling spring, "lol ya that's what I had too >.>" and just completing bsing all the rest?

But that isn't what happened.

[Spolium]

FHQ has a point. They verified the information in such a way that they're either both town, or both scum (or, as Spring noted, the mod may have given it to Jebus upon request, though it was a fairly tight time slot).

@Jebus. My PM contains a quatrain with an AABB rhyming scheme. The first couplet rhymes with flaming/caning.

Rhyme scheme for my PM is AABB. The first couplet matches with what you said, the second couple ends on words rhyming with "tie" or "fly". Specifically, the second line of the second couple is another word for 'the end of a persons life'.

On the role PM, yes it checks out. It lends you a little credit since you responded quick enough, but the mod was active today and still could have given it to you.

[TonyMontana]

I'm sorry for the lack of updates lately, will get a VC in tonight.
I'd also like to emphasize that

Deadline is Sunday 11pm CET.

After deadline, all bets are off and I might end the day anytime I feel like. (which might be 12pm or might be wednesday)

[sekinj]

As spoilum re-quoted, they have to have gotten the same PM. I compared it to mine and mine is completely different. I wouldn't have been able to follow up what spring said with anything close to what Jebus reported.

@lynx - that is a good point. I can't find where you said that the first time.

[TonyMontana]

Vote Count

All the scum better run
When the town get'er done
Then again, whats to fear
No-lynch seems like it's near

L-5

fhqwhgads

(1) Lynx
L-5

Jebus

(1) sekinj
L-5

Rhinox

(1) Jebus
L-5

sekjin

(1) springlullaby

Not Voting: (7) hohum | RedCoyote | fhqwhgads | Rhinox | Spolium | don_johnson | goatrevolt |

With 11 people alive, it takes

6 votes to lynch

45 hours left until deadline

[sekinj]

whoa, I didn't know I was still voting Jebus.

unvote

[springlullaby]

Mod: I demand hard replacement on hohum

Keeping him in the game is a joke.

[sekinj]

I'm not sure how we can have a deadline if there is a completely inactive player.... Are we supposed to assume that makes him town?

[TonyMontana]

1. I've been trying to replace hohum.
2. I won't end the day until I find a replacement. (I will as soon as I do, so the only way to guarantee a lynch is to get it in before deadline)

[don_johnson]

v/la until 3/31(tuesday)

vote: rhinox/DO

this is the lynch i am most comfortable with.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Ok, here's the deal possible deadline tomorrow night. We need to get a lynch in before then. I'm not willing to take the risk and bank on Tony not finding a replacement to buy us extra time. Unless of course we can get an

extension

?

Nope

It's obvious the two main candidates right now are FHQ and Rhinox. Anyone not voting needs to make up their mind and decide between these two

NOW

. Let's not stall too long. I expect everyone to have a choice by tomorrow. These are the only two I see as viable choices for today.

FHQ and Rhinox should both present their lynch suggestions and explain why they're a better option than themselves.

I still want FHQ lynched. However, If the wagons are stalling I'll act accordingly.

[Spolium]

I'm currently less willing to vote Rhinox than before - while DO's suggestion still leaves a sour taste in my mouth, Rhinox seems to be defending himself adequately and his responses thus far ring fairly town.

Consequently, it looks like FHQ may end up being my choice. I'm interested to see what they each have to say between today and tomorrow.

I will also look into each player some more. Will place a vote tomorrow morning.