Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[don_johnson]

SL is my biggest suspect right now. her misrep of me seems intentional and thorough. i think she may have been hoping that people were just going to read the bolded parts and her lynch choices.

That's quite the flimsy accusation to make and it is looking scummy on you. Do you seriously believe in the hypothesis of scumME being so crude about it?

Spring, you admitted to misrepresenting me on several points. to have gone throught the trouble of preparing your giant post, you had to have spent a certain amount of effort. effort shows intent. why the wifom question here? my accusation was preceded by an entire post of evidence supporting it. how is that "flimsy"?

No, I have admitted that I had made 2 factual errors/misreads, which we clarified when you pointed them out.

sorry, more than two. reread.

I'm not sure what you mean by "effort shows intent".

you intended your posts to have an effect on this game, no? by putting forth the amount of effort it takes to concieve the amount of notes you posted, it proves that you intended some sort of outcome. maybe not the outcome i am intepreting, but you didn't post, just to post.

My question may be wifom, but I'm not particularly afraid of wifom:
the theory you suggest here is that I purposely made easily identifiable mistakes in order to misrepresent you. This is flimsy because I'm just not that bad scum, which you should have an idea of because you have seen scum me before, hence my question.

what "easily identifiable mistakes? you purposely bolded sections of your notes and drew attention to the fact that you did. it was like you were encouraging people to "skim".

1) I think there is still possibility of backtracking on your part in here because you say that you voted me for active lurking: what at the point of your unvote did I do to change your opinion on that?

you responded. it was all i asked when i voted.

I'm considering this, and I think it is quite the pointless move.

you are entitled to your opinion, but "pressure" is what got you involved in this game. do you disagree?

Please tell me, were your criticism of Ice based on what you think of his alignment, or on how you thought he should be playing?

i don't understand this. i explained how i feel about aggressive behavior. it is not a scumtell, but it has serious anti-town potential. i am always suspicious of it. unfortunately Ice has dissappeared.

I have asked that question because what I see there is a contradiction in terms and possibly a scumslip.

Yes you have explained how you felt about "dangerous play", but you have described it as a *townie* behavior.

As such, you being suspicious of it doesn't make sense.

do not put words in my mouth. i described it as much more then possible townie behavior. you are strawmanning this one.

Ok. By curiosity, were you not aware that I frequently used this line of argument in our previous game?

no, actually, you were the least of my worries, i thought you were bad town and was ignoring you. my hope was to carry you into lylo and then filet you.

I can give you that making things clear is important. But still is the fact that your question amounted to nothing very much in term of scum hunting and the drawing of conclusion. Are we in agreement on that?

no. by not clarifying things we can let scum slip through the cracks, or make baseless and incorrect assumptions about other players.

Well, I think that if 'clarification' is a minor subset of the making of case. Also I dislike your sudden use of 'we' here, but I fear I might be starting to get very nitpicky.

yes, you are being nitpicky. "we" refers to town at large.

Here you are missing the entirety of the argument. Your 176 is a post solely consisting of general considerations about gameplay at large, this is the easiest kind of post you can fake town read in because there is very little reason for scum to lie in theory discussion, and the spontaneity and sincerity involved translates readily.

Ice9 may be faking for all I know, but I don't think it is as likely because my town read of him arise from the attitude he takes in scumhunting proper. And that is harder to fake because, when it comes to scumhunting, deception is involved from scum.

okay, so you have a "gut" feeling on me. you produce no evidence to support this. also, you are pointing to a post that was made in response to several other players. you are faulting me for requested interaction. also, i do ask questions of others in this post and i believe that the post itself, inherently aids the scumhunting process. i think you are reaching on this one, supporting my accusation of "intentionally misrepresenting".

Are you missing the point on purpose? Why do you insist that "I have a gut feeling" on you? I never claimed such thing. Where am I reaching exactly? Right now you appear to be the one misrepresenting me.

Here I see the possibility that you may be under the assumption that I regard that post as a definite scumtell, I'll clarify again that it is not the case. I made an observation to the effect that I detected towntell from the post in question, but were wary of it for the reason described. And it was just that, a remark.

oh. it was "just a remark"? so i guess i should just let you make remarks that insinuate certain players are scum because their posts look "town"? not sure what your point is on this one. you can be wary of it, but if you publicize your wariness of "townie" posts with no evidence to the contrary and suggest someones lynch, i will find you scummy whether you are targetting me or not. sorry, but that's how i roll. you need to be accountable for your suggestions.

I think you are unfair, there are summary elements in my notes true, but there are also relevant opinions.

yes, but your opinions tend to give certain players the "benefit of the doubt" while painting others scummy for what amount to similar gameplay. also, your opinions are seem based off your notes, which you have admitted, are flawed. perhaps it is you who needs to reassess.

Here I think you are being unfair again. It is true that my assessment of this game is not very dramatic, but I believe it is the nature of this game which lead to that. There are very few players who distinguished themselves by their play today, the big bulk of you being in the grey zone, and not particularly distinguishable from each others. I made the best assessment I could, and pronounced myself accordingly.

okay.

I also do not appreciate the ambivalent use of the word 'people' here suggesting plural.

i believe three other players have pointed to issues with your notes as well. three plus one makes four, hence plurality.

And you agree with each and all of these "issues"?

can't say right now, but i haven't seen anything i disagree with. for your benefit i can reread them. my point still stands, unless we are looking at a strongly united four player scum team, you seem to be intent on screwing somebody.

My notes are the process by which I came to the conclusion that you are likely scum but the comment in them are not meant to be definite accusation Ultimately my reason for suspecting you is that when

I view everything you have contributed to this game, I think it doesn't amount to very much.

as opposed to whose contributions? yours?

Well, yes, I think I'm stepping it up quite a bit.

and why is that?

It was not a loaded when I conceived it, but I now that I consider it, I think it might be difficult to answer regardless of alignment.

I'll explain why I asked it further: you seemed quite indignant at my calling your play milky and amounting to nothing much. But looking at your play, I just don't see what you are indignant about because it is by no measure stellar, and you have pretty much backsitted the entire day. I think town would be more honest in their perspective of their own play. What do you think?

i think my play has been pretty pro town. i actually cast one of the first "serious" votes, accomplishing what budja claimed he was trying to do with his random/bandwagon vote. i admittedly lost some interest when the poetry died. i think the fact that i am now center stage with you speaks for itself.

This is not what I asked for, I'm asking for who your others suspects are, plus your reasons why you think them to be scummy. And why you think I'm scummier than them.

you obviously didn't notice the list i posted. top to bottom, scummiest to least. you are scummier because you are more obvious scum. i.e. you are intentionally misrepresenting other players. you are continuing to do so even after being called on it.

[RedCoyote]

Directly after her post, my feelings toward her were much more positive. But I didn't study her post thoroughly and only focused on the things she accentuated. This is exactly what I think she tried to do with that post. Reading back the responses about the amount of mistakes she made, it seems to me these 'notes' weren't made during the game, but rather after the fact.

What inclines you to suspect this? Is it just the notes she took on you?

I'm certainly not going to deny it's a possibility, my whole point is it just seems so unlikely for scum to draw that much attention to themselves, especially a more seasoned player like spring.

I'd be more open to your side of the argument if you could point to some specifics where the notes just seem totally offbase, but frankly it's hard from me to criticize someone's shorthand as they follow the game. She said it herself these were her own personal notes about each post as the game flowed.

While I think it is anti-town not to engage, I think it's significantly worse to be in a position of you, Azhrei, or Budja and say spring should be our Public Enemy #1 when all of y'alls contributions have been rather on the light side. Budja in particular has struck the complete wrong chord with me.

Let me ask you something fhq, can you think of a valid strategy behind what she did if she were scum? I can't think of anything reasonable outside of the complete WIFOM argument that, "she anticpated we would get upset at her inactivity but then write her off completely once she posted some notes". That isn't good enough for me to convict her right now. Whether or not her notes are 100% accurate of anyone is just petty sounding. I'm reading this back and forth between her and don with malaise.

And

I'll even go further

than that and say that don, Goat, and Lynx have all slightly pinged back scummy to me for pushing this issue needlessly. I think spring is an easy out, and I would not be surprised if more than one scum is voting her right now...

---

If we're approaching a no-lynch situation, I'll vote whichever gives us a lynch. Otherwise, I'll

vote: Budja

on the basis of unhelpful wishy-washy filler posts and the fact that everyone has provided an opinion on him (see above).

However, I do agree with this statement. If this town will not budge on spring for a more reasonable lynch (e.g. Budja, fhq, possibly Jebus), then I will also change my vote if necessary.

To be sure though, if this town is serious about lynching spring, then I do

support and extension of the deadline

if only in order to give us more time to reconsider what we're thinking about in this game.

- wallpost ambiguous enough to explain away "misinterpretations" if necessary

Her post was prefaced with the comment that that post was her uncensored shorthand for following this game. To argue that she concoted it is one thing, to argue that it was purposefully ambiguous is another. I found her summation of most players to be apt, and I don't expect a post such as hers to be 100% accurate with regards to everyone's interpretations at the time they made the post.

- "I'm happy to vote players x, y and z" with no vote

I see this as much less of a sin then some of the other players here. Budja left the same "random vote" up long after the player was replaced out of the game. I don't know if Ice9 (

Mod, prod Ice9 please

) still feels the same way about Budja, Jebus (

Mod, prod Jebus please

) still hasn't voted, and Plonky's been on spring's wagon since before it had wheels. I think all of these players have a worse record for voting than spring does because spring has given us her a recent, updated opinion of the game... you know, like she actually cares about who we're going to lynch today. I don't see anything to indicate that spring would not have voted before the deadline.

---

That said, I will tell you that I feel your vote on me is somewhat understandable BUT not justified from a town point of view. I think it is easy and lazy, and quite scummy as it does not take the game in its entirety into consideration. But I also understand that I have written myself in a somewhat difficult corner concerning you by making, what I think are, some minors mistakes, allowing you to take on the righteous townie role.

I think this is mostly true, and spring, if you don't mind me asking, do you have a serious reason for waiting so long to pick up the pace?

---

not sure if you knew what you were getting into with "hackpoetry". Spolium had previously tried to commandeer the Haiku form(in the sign-up thread, i believe?) and his poem tried to express his ownership of it. personally i love haiku and didn't think it fair for one player to "steal" an entire form of poetry. this statement could be taken several ways. it was during the rvs. if you don't understand something, ask a question. you didn't ask because you were busy lurking. so by not clarifying information, your opinion was swayed, hence the importance of clarifying post content.

Okay, I'm reading this, I'm reading all of this, but

come on

.

I know I sound like I'm completely in spring's corner, but this is just asinine.

I don't see how don can argue, on the one hand, that spring is so prone to misrepresenting everyone's posts, but on the other argue that her infamous notes post was completely concocted in order to make it look like she was following the game.

Why would she not go to the trouble to make sure her notes were more accurate

if

she in fact she made the entire post up? These arguments seem completely contradictory to me.

I don't think you can argue that she both made these notes up when she posted them and that they are misrepresentative of the game at the same time. If she made the post up, that necessarily implies that she was taking the time to read the posts carefully and write up the acceptable "note" of each post.

SpringLullaby
Budja
Red Coyote
Fghjdads
Ice9
Azrhei?
Jebus?
Plonky?
Lynx
Goat
Spolium

If you want me to be perfectly honest don, I think a great deal of this anger at spring is a smokescreen. The fact that you find me more suspicious that Plonky, a player who has had zero contribution to this game, is telling. It's telling because you are calling out spring for being such a lurker, and then you're going to turn around and say that Plonky, Jebus, and Azrehi are your 4th, 5th, and 6th most townie respectively?

---

These things seem so completely trivial in my eyes, I don't think one player here has given a decent reason to look at spring that isn't completely derived in WIFOM (e.g. only scumspring would post "notes" like that). don's walls are not aiding the situation at all because I'm not convinced spring's post was artifical, which is the foundation for which all of Goat/don/Spolium/fhq's arguments rest on.

I think we need to get Ice9, Jebus, and Plonky to post in here

as soon as possible

. I do not want this day to end before we have heard from them.

[fhqwhgads]

1. Your first attack is unfair, you shouldn't be concerned over whether my suspects are "among some of the most supected at the moment", but whether you think I'm justified in thinking them scummy.

I'm just observing that you, in your original post, gave vague reasons on all three people being pursued by the majority without really putting your money where your mouth is.

2. What IS significant and in which way? The second accusation is rather vague, what my being arrogant or not has to do with anything?

What IS significant to me, is the fact that I interpreted that these are your notes you have made during the game (feel free to correct me). Your 'lurker' posts continually spewed things like "There's nothing for me to say, so I'm not saying anything", yet your notes DO contain content during these periods. Again, I feel these 'notes' were made after the fact, which is evident in the number of 'minor' mistakes you made, some of which now should alter your view on some people, which leads me to the next question:

Who are your top subjects NOW? and why?

3. Well, it is difficult only if you are lazy enough. Lynching me because you feel to lazy to verify my say is pretty crappy I think.

Ok, fine, I am lazy because I don't have the time to cross reference every telegram style comment you've made with all the posts you mentioned. I'll concede to that if you concede that your post is needlessly difficult to analyse. Lazy or not, the size of that post alone makes it easier for things to slip by in the sheer volume of it all.

How is it good for town to make your arguments difficult to verify?

[Goatrevolt]

Spring: Did you compile those notes during the course of the game, or did you go back and read through and make that post after the fact?

RedCoyote: How is it scummy for me to pressure Spring on that post? All of my pressure has been based on entirely valid points. Also, I thought you were "interested in seeing how my pressure on spring turned out." Apparently not?

I will agree, however, that don_johnson is reaching a bit. I don't see how he can expect Spring to have a completely perfect representation of the entire game in 1 post. There are bound to be mistakes. I'd highly doubt any of her misreps were done intentionally.

-----------

Unvote, Vote Budja

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote: How is it scummy for me to pressure Spring on that post? All of my pressure has been based on entirely valid points. Also, I thought you were "interested in seeing how my pressure on spring turned out." Apparently not?

Perhaps I am unfairly lumping you together with don and Spolium, but generally I do not see the helpfulness behind the pressure spring is getting. The actual quote is not as warm to the suggestion as you make it appear,

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it, but I don't think she's scum at the moment.

as I'm basically trying to say that I don't really see the necessity behind it but I will not completely shut my mind out to it if it produces anything. As I anticpated, it's spiraling into don and spring throwing walls at each other, and I just do not see this being productive. The argument is so speculative from my point of view.

Spring and don Discourse as Reenacted by RedCoyote

spring: here are my notes, don seems scummy here because he meant spolium was longwinded
don: no way you are scum for getting that meaning, I really meant this
spring: you mean that you said you meant that? I thought you meant this
don: no I meant this how could you think I meant this? do you mean you think I meant this???
spring: no I think you mean you mean you mean you mean
don: you mean you mean you mean you mean

Please tell me, were your criticism of Ice based on what you think of his alignment, or on how you thought he should be playing?

i explained how i feel about aggressive behavior. it is not a scumtell, but it has serious anti-town potential.

Yes you have explained how you felt about "dangerous play", but you have described it as a *townie* behavior.

do not put words in my mouth.

I mean, I could go back further, this is just scrolling down to post 248. Like I said, if either of them think there is a lot of merit to be had, then I think they need to explain it a bit more succinctly for the town.

[Goatrevolt]

RedCoyote: How is it scummy for me to pressure Spring on that post? All of my pressure has been based on entirely valid points. Also, I thought you were "interested in seeing how my pressure on spring turned out." Apparently not?

Perhaps I am unfairly lumping you together with don and Spolium, but generally I do not see the helpfulness behind the pressure spring is getting. The actual quote is not as warm to the suggestion as you make it appear,

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it, but I don't think she's scum at the moment.

Why is it unhelpful for me to pressure Spring about lack of solid stances/lack of vote, but yet you have no problem with me pressuring Budja/Fhq/don_johnson on the same?

[RedCoyote]

What makes you think she doesn't have solid stances? And when did I say don didn't have solid stances/lack of vote?

This is the same point I addressed with Spolium, do you mean to say that you thought that spring would

not

vote before the deadline? If so, what gave you that impression?

spring expressed herself and her suspicions very clearly and completely. Budja, Fhq, Plonky, Ice9... these players have votes in limbo and haven't made any current contributions to the game (with the exception of Fhq, he's on that list for other reasons).

I think you're generalizing quite a few of my points Goat, and that doesn't bode well for my opinion of you.

[Goatrevolt]

What makes you think she doesn't have solid stances? And when did I say don didn't have solid stances/lack of vote?

Her post called about 50% of the game "milky" and she listed 1/3 of the game as players she would be willing to lynch but made no effort to do so.

I never said anything about you and don. You're misreading that. I'm saying that I called out spring for a lack of solid stances, and in much the same fashion I have called out Fhq/Budja/Don. You had no problem when I did that to the other 3, but you find it suspicious when I attack spring in much the same fashion. What's the difference?

This is the same point I addressed with Spolium, do you mean to say that you thought that spring would

not

vote before the deadline? If so, what gave you that impression?

I have no idea whether she would have voted or not. I certainly have suspicions that she wouldn't have, based on her precedent set in this game and my experiences with her from others. That's not really a relevant point, though.

Regardless of precedent, or whether or not I actually believed that she was going to place the vote, there's nothing wrong with me pressuring her to do so. I'm forcing her to make a commitment to one of her stances, and ensuring that she isn't going to simply lurk out the rest of the day and then come around tomorrow with something like "I was willing to lynch X, but I just didn't get around to it before the deadline."

Sitting on no vote is a perfect place for scum to be. they can lurk out the day and contribute to a no lynch if applicable. They can wait and see what happens and pick and choose what wagon they want if applicable. Getting people to commit to a vote now is a good thing for a variety of reasons.

spring expressed herself and her suspicions very clearly and completely. Budja, Fhq, Plonky, Ice9... these players have votes in limbo and haven't made any current contributions to the game (with the exception of Fhq, he's on that list for other reasons).

I've said this before, but there is a huge difference between expressing willingness to lynch and actually doing something to achieve that. Secondly, I have pressured many of those same players for the exact same thing, which is not placing a vote or making any effort to achieve a lynch before deadline.

I think you're generalizing quite a few of my points Goat, and that doesn't bode well for my opinion of you.

Back this up. Where have I generalized any of your points? You are suspicious of the pressure I put on spring. My pressure on Spring was based around her lack of a vote. I have also pressured fhq/Budja/don on that very same thing. Why is Spring a special case?

[Goatrevolt]

don's walls are not aiding the situation at all because I'm not convinced spring's post was artifical, which is the foundation for which all of Goat/don/Spolium/fhq's arguments rest on.

I missed this from before. I'm not arguing that spring's post was artificial. I don't think she was faking anything or intentionally misrepresenting anyone. I agree with you that it makes little sense for scum to do that. However, I know for a fact that posts like that are not hard to make as scum, and what stuck out to me the most was the lack of a vote/lack of a lynch preference. If she is town, then it stands to reason she has a preference to who she wanted to lynch most, and she should be voting that player. If she's scum, then she should be forced into making an early stance she might not be as comfortable with.

At any rate, she's put down a vote, so I'm satisfied for the time being.

[TonyMontana]

C-C-C-Combo breaker Vote Count

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Actually, they're violet. Which btw, sometimes roses are too.. weird.

L-2

springlullaby

(5) Plonky, Lynx, Azhrei, don_johnson, fhqwhgads
L-2

Budja

(5) RedCoyote, Ice9, Spolium, springlullaby, Goatrevolt

Not Voting:

Budja | Jebus
With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch

Deadline in

3 days

I have not heard a good reason for an extension, nor is the support overwhelming. Motion denied.

Ice9

prodded.

[don_johnson]

not sure if you knew what you were getting into with "hackpoetry". Spolium had previously tried to commandeer the Haiku form(in the sign-up thread, i believe?) and his poem tried to express his ownership of it. personally i love haiku and didn't think it fair for one player to "steal" an entire form of poetry. this statement could be taken several ways. it was during the rvs. if you don't understand something, ask a question. you didn't ask because you were busy lurking. so by not clarifying information, your opinion was swayed, hence the importance of clarifying post content.

Okay, I'm reading this, I'm reading all of this, but

come on

.

I know I sound like I'm completely in spring's corner, but this is just asinine.

I don't see how don can argue, on the one hand, that spring is so prone to misrepresenting everyone's posts, but on the other argue that her infamous notes post was completely concocted in order to make it look like she was following the game.

noone said the post was completely concocted. scum can follow the game and take notes, however, scums notes are going to be "trying" to find things scummy, as opposed to actually finding scum. hard to explain, but you are way off base with this accusation. also, how do you get this conclusion from my quote above?

Why would she not go to the trouble to make sure her notes were more accurate

if

she in fact she made the entire post up? These arguments seem completely contradictory to me.

they are contradictory, and noone is making them. if her notes were so accurate, why did she point out that her conclusions were bolded at the end of each section?

I don't think you can argue that she both made these notes up when she posted them and that they are misrepresentative of the game at the same time. If she made the post up, that necessarily implies that she was taking the time to read the posts carefully and write up the acceptable "note" of each post.

how many times in one post are you going to say this? i am not saying SL made anything up. i am saying that to me, it appears that she deliberatly spun her take on the game. thats what scum does, which is why i find her scummy. get it?

SpringLullaby
Budja
Red Coyote
Fghjdads
Ice9
Azrhei?
Jebus?
Plonky?
Lynx
Goat
Spolium

If you want me to be perfectly honest don, I think a great deal of this anger at spring is a smokescreen. The fact that you find me more suspicious that Plonky, a player who has had zero contribution to this game, is telling. It's telling because you are calling out spring for being such a lurker, and then you're going to turn around and say that Plonky, Jebus, and Azrehi are your 4th, 5th, and 6th most townie respectively?

i am not calling SL out for lurking. i pressure voted her to be more active. my current issue with her has very little to do with her lurking, and much to do with her misrepresentation of information in this game. yes, i find you more suspicious than some of the players who have not contributed as much. your entire post is opinion. you produce no evidence that Spring's notes are in any way accurate. you produce no evidence of these "smokescreens". i feel i have presented a very well rounded case here. i am not just throwing accusations around without backing up each and every one.

---

These things seem so completely trivial in my eyes, I don't think one player here has given a decent reason to look at spring that isn't completely derived in WIFOM (e.g. only scumspring would post "notes" like that). don's walls are not aiding the situation at all because

I'm not convinced spring's post was artifical

, which is the foundation for which all of Goat/don/Spolium/fhq's arguments rest on.

noone said the post was artificial. i don't really know what you mean by that, but you produce no evidence to show that her post is accurate. yes, she mentions that budja is scummy, but instead of producing evidence to the fact, she reduces one of his posts to "flowers and sunshine". that is blatant misrep.

I think we need to get Ice9, Jebus, and Plonky to post in here

as soon as possible

. I do not want this day to end before we have heard from them.

yes.

unvote

. SL remains at the top of my list, but i notice she has latent votes from missing players. if anyone wants to extend deadline i am fine with that as well. i would like both you and Spring to start talking sense and stop just tossing your opinions around as though they are facts.

[Spolium]

Whoops, I forgot to

declare my support for Spring's extension request.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

God damn it all! I had a pretty damn big post about Spring which I will not be typing again. It is a bit of a rehash of info and only regards to the WIFOM of her move so its not worth wasting the time retyping.

Anyway what I did say was that

I support the deadline

Alot of players have been inactive so an extension wouldn't hurt. We wouldn't have any real read on these players on Day 2(Plonky, Azhrei, Ice). Plus, Budja and Jebus haven't posted in awhile.

Don, why the unvote? You seemed pretty set on Spring as scum. She wasn't in any real imminent danger of being lynched.

If the deadline stays intact. I'd certainly like to hear from Bujda before I make my final decision on who is the better candidate of the two. Spring has defended herself a good amount. Budja...not so much.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

EBWOP:

I SUPPORT DEADLINE EXTENSION, NOT THE DEADLINE

[Spolium]

- wallpost ambiguous enough to explain away "misinterpretations" if necessary

Her post was prefaced with the comment that that post was her uncensored shorthand for following this game.

Announcing something before doing so does not necessarily excuse it.

At first I was content with her post since it marked the start of her active participation - and it's good that she's responding to questions concerning it - but I'm keeping mindful of (1) the fact that she posted her shorthand scrapbook notes in lieu of actually giving others an opportunity to read her over the course of several pages, and (2) the mess erupting as a consequence of her assessment of posts which were made made weeks ago.

I do agree that some of the arguments against her come across as petty, but her post, with such a wide range of minor points, has in my opinion muddied the waters somewhat (in effect if not in itself).

To argue that she concoted it is one thing, to argue that it was purposefully ambiguous is another. I found her summation of most players to be apt, and I don't expect a post such as hers to be 100% accurate with regards to everyone's interpretations at the time they made the post.

I didn't exactly mean that she wrote it with the intention of being ambiguous; it would be more accurate to say that the ambiguity which arises from the rough notekeeping style would make for an excellent scumscreen (where town would benefit from greater clarity). I will concede that this is a bit WIFOMish though.

- "I'm happy to vote players x, y and z" with no vote

I see this as much less of a sin then some of the other players here. [..] I think all of these players have a worse record for voting than spring does because spring has given us her a recent, updated opinion of the game... you know, like she actually cares about who we're going to lynch today.

This is a fair point - all poor votes should be considered - but it's the flexibility of Spring's "good to vote" list which concerns me, not just in itself but also in light of the aforementioned flexibility of her shorthand notes.

[Jebus]

Whoops, I forgot to

declare my support for Spring's extension request.

+1

And will post my comments to Great Wall of China on the weekend.

[don_johnson]

Alot of players have been inactive so an extension wouldn't hurt. We wouldn't have any real read on these players on Day 2(Plonky, Azhrei, Ice). Plus, Budja and Jebus haven't posted in awhile.

i agree.

Don, why the unvote? You seemed pretty set on Spring as scum. She wasn't in any real imminent danger of being lynched.

like i said, there are latent lurker votes attached to SL. i want to reread and see where those votes came from, also. RC seems intent on defending townspring, but he has produced little which proves any of his beliefs. i.e. why is he so sure that SL is town? my case is not weak. noone, as yet, has punched any holes in it. this statement:

And I'll even go further than that and say that

don, Goat, and Lynx

have all slightly pinged back scummy to me for pushing this issue needlessly. I think spring is an easy out, and I would not be surprised if more than one scum is voting her right now...

seems uneccessary. how is questioning a player on a questionable post "pushing an issue needlessly"? i would think determining whether ort not SL's post was genuine would be an

extremely important

issue as opposed to needless. also note, he states that don, goat, and lynx are doing the pushing, yet he quotes fhq. i don't think any one of the three players he mentions are piggybacking at all on what fhq wrote. in fact, it seems as though those three players all have separate and solid issues they are trying to settle regarding SL's post. so, for now,

vote: RedCoyote

your play has been puzzling to say the least.

[RedCoyote]

Mod, with

4

3 inactive players (Ice9, Budja, Ponky, and

Jebus

(Jebus just said he will post before deadline)) and a replacement for Azhrei hasn't came through, I ask that you reconsider the deadline extension.

---

Her post called about 50% of the game "milky" and she listed 1/3 of the game as players she would be willing to lynch but made no effort to do so.

I think we have an honest disagreement here. Personally I think spring was attempting to let people know that she had been following the game and was telling us where she stood currently. I do not contend that she

specifically

shyed away from voting a player because she didn't have a solid stance but rather because she was prepared to deal with the rush of responses that rightfully followed.

She made it clear who she wanted to vote, and nothing indicated that she wasn't going to cast a vote in a reasonable time after that (which she did).

You had no problem when I did that to the other 3, but you find it suspicious when I attack spring in much the same fashion. What's the difference?

fhq and Budja hadn't made a solid stance since the beginning of this game, much moreso in the case of Budja than fhq, but a majority of their posts are defensively oriented, so I agree with you there and there's no sense in arguing the point.

I disgaree with the same suggestions as they apply to spring.

They can wait and see what happens and pick and choose what wagon they want if applicable. Getting people to commit to a vote now is a good thing for a variety of reasons.

This is a good point, and I don't disagree that a person should be voting, especially on D1.

What frustrates me is that spring's post came off as anticipatory and rightfully so. She knew she was going to get several responses from everyone after she made it, and so for her to say who her top suspects were gave us the opportunity to say, "Ok, I think this one is good, but not this one" in order to persuade her. It was more or less a formality that she vote Budja, given the fact that Budja hasn't been particularly interested in scumhunting or helping the town. If she had voted Budja a few posts before she did, I don't see how it would've made much of a difference in this case. She made it clear that she suspected him, she made it clear that her vote would likely go that way on account of the deadline, everything she did was indicative of where the vote was going.

So it frustrates me that you would challenge her on this point, knowing the position she was in with, like I said, an anticipatory post like hers.

I've said this before, but there is a huge difference between expressing willingness to lynch and actually doing something to achieve that.

You don't think by puting "Note: so and so would be a good lynch candidate" in her notes is doing something to achieve a lynch when she posts it for everyone to see?

Secondly, I have pressured many of those same players for the exact same thing, which is not placing a vote or making any effort to achieve a lynch before deadline.

Absolutely, but what makes spring worse to you than the others seems ingenuine to me.

Where have I generalized any of your points?

When you said this,

Also, I thought [RC was] "interested in seeing how my pressure on spring turned out."

knowing that the context of that statement was not as positive as you made it appear.

Additionally, you're trying to frame me in such a way that I would have an equal level of suspicions of spring that I would have of Budja/fhq/don, which has not been the case.

You're asking me why I see a difference between Budja and spring's recent activity when I think there is a clear cut difference between the two. To generalize both of them by saying they both hadn't voted is, in my opinion, completely ignoring the context of the game.

---

noone said the post was completely concocted.

Reading back the responses about the amount of mistakes she made,

it seems to me these 'notes' weren't made during the game, but rather after the fact

.

Again, I feel these 'notes' were made after the fact

, which is evident in the number of 'minor' mistakes you made, some of which now should alter your view on some people

Based on the way you repeat this, I'm guessing [RC's] working under the assumption that spring was following the game and collecting evidence all along, and just chose to drop it all on us now.

Why do you assume this is the case rather than the

also plausible (and I would argue more likely) assumption that she just went back and read the game

?

(emphasis added to previous 3 quotes).

your mistakes seem less reasonable as "mistakes". I believe your intent is to misdirect town.

don, I will retract lumping your name into this general sentiment (of her post being fake), but with post 246 I think you can understand why I had it in the front of my mind that you weren't opposed to this argument. The point you were making is that she posted it delibrately to mislead, so I assumed you were in agreement with Goat and fhq's sentiments from above.

But to correct your statment, yes, people are arguing that her post was concoted.

also, how do you get this conclusion from my quote above?

I used it as more of a springboard to establish my frustration with the argument between you two.

"spring, he was stealing haiku... you not clarifying this is scummy!"

It just made me want to say, "Come on don, really?"

my current issue with her has very little to do with her lurking, and much to do with her misrepresentation of information in this game. yes, i find you more suspicious than some of the players who have not contributed as much. your entire post is opinion. you produce no evidence that Spring's notes are in any way accurate.

Her representation of me, Budja, fhq, Spolium, and others seems fair and what I about what I would expect someone with limited information to take from the game. Her conclusions, for the most part, are acceptable and rational sounding.

I think you showed a couple of comments she made in her own personal notes that weren't completely accurate, as reasonable, townie players sometimes get people's intentions wrong at one point or another. But when you say things like this,

your analysis seems ripe with misrepresentations(not just of me).

I have to stop and question why. I have specifically asked you in particular if you want me to consider a serious case against spring then I would advise you to please lay it out a little more clearly.

Most of the points you have against her are dervied in speculation over what you meant when you made a post, to which you inherently have the advantage over any other player. Like spring, I have to read your comments and come to the conclusion as to whether or not spring came up with a reasonable "note" on the post, but, don, I can't tell you how hard that is for you to prove to me knowing that you could, and I contend you are, pick on her for every minor thing in order to pad an argument.

(And if anyone was confused with the argument I made here,

I don't blame you.

This is exactly why I think the bickering between don and spring is trivial, and it's why I hate arguments that are so grounded in speculation over what one person thought that another player meant.)

you produce no evidence to show that her post is accurate. yes, she mentions that budja is scummy, but instead of producing evidence to the fact, she reduces one of his posts to "flowers and sunshine". that is blatant misrep.

As I said, I have no problem with the majority of her interpretations. I think they sound accurate for uncensored shorthand that a player takes as they go through a thread. Do I argue that I think a townie should do something like this? No. Do I think it's likely that she's trying to misrepresent you and Budja specifically? No.

---

Don, why the unvote? You seemed pretty set on Spring as scum. She wasn't in any real imminent danger of being lynched.

I'm wondering this myself.

---

!!!UPDATE!!!

i would think determining

whether ort not SL's post was genuine

would be an extremely important issue as opposed to needless.

don had to determine whether or not spring's "notes" post was genuine or artificial... right after he got through telling me in post 260 that he never considered her notes to be concoted.

I do not retract my argument from earlier, don is still in the group with Goat and fhq.

Additionally, I think him putting me at L-6 with 2 days left until the deadline is a foolhardy, suspicious move.

FoS: don_johnson

[don_johnson]

mod: azhrei unvoted before he quit...

[don_johnson]

!!!UPDATE!!!

i would think determining

whether ort not SL's post was genuine

would be an extremely important issue as opposed to needless.

don had to determine whether or not spring's "notes" post was genuine or artificial... right after he got through telling me in post 260 that he never considered her notes to be concoted.

I do not retract my argument from earlier, don is still in the group with Goat and fhq.

Additionally, I think him putting me at L-6 with 2 days left until the deadline is a foolhardy, suspicious move.

FoS: don_johnson

you are not understanding the quote you are referencing or you are twisting this and arguing semantics.

you

called the four players out for discussing whether or not SL's post was genuine or not. whether she followed along and wrote scum notes, or read the thread after the fact and wrote down notes, or if she didn't read the thread closely and simply tried to piece together a "town" looking post is only a small part of what these four players were discussing. also, your conclusion is way off base here as the quote is out of context. i urge anyone listening to this crap to actually go back and read the exchange.

i don't think her post was genuine. how she "concocted" it is not the issue. whether it was done while she followed the game or after the fact is not really relevant. you are strawmanning, focusing on a relatively minor point and trying to make it seem as though it is the focus of suspicions on her.

your bolded statement above is all semantics and attempt to completely derail a sound argument with "craplogic".

also, are you saying it is okay for SL to be suspicious of me for the "theft of haiku" post, but it is not okay for me to be suspicious of her for choosing to lurk rather than clarify something she found suspicious?

[Budja]

I am going to post soon. I have quite a bit of reading to do first. The walls of texts are quite daunting.

[RedCoyote]

you

called the four players out for discussing whether or not SL's post was genuine or not.

Yeah, and they did. Did you read the quotes I provided?

whether it was done while she followed the game or after the fact is not really relevant. you are strawmanning, focusing on a relatively minor point and trying to make it seem as though it is the focus of suspicions on her.

It depends, when you said "whether or not her post was genuine" did you mean genuine in the sense that she made up the notes on the spot? If not, what did you mean?

And it is relevant because I've made it clear I don't think it's plausible for someone to say that she made up the notes. That implies that she isn't paying attention to the game and that she is scum.

are you saying it is okay for SL to be suspicious of me for the "theft of haiku" post, but it is not okay for me to be suspicious of her for choosing to lurk rather than clarify something she found suspicious?

I'm saying that if you want to make a case against her for these things, you are going to have to make it much more clear to me. Refer to the end of post 254.

[fhqwhgads]

RC, jump to conclusions much?

My "it was rather made after the fact" does NOT mean "she made it up"

My point, and someone already made it, i forget who, is that she first tried to brashly not take part in the game. When that strategy started to fail, she obviously reread the thread and threw together that post, selling it to us as her 'notes she made during the game'.

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument that she could have made that post up. What is there to make up? It was supposed to be an analysis, the mistakes in the post has been caught by mainly the people it was made against and quite a few she acknowledged. She either makes very sloppy notes, or she did a once off reread and attempted to do the whole thing at once.

All in all, your staunch defense of SL is disturbing to me. She can defend herself well enough, and should.

Speaking of which. Notch another one up for

deadline extension support

.

[TonyMontana]

Due to popular demand

Deadline extended.

Friday, 1am CET
Azhrei's vote removed

[RedCoyote]

My point, and someone already made it, i forget who, is that she first tried to brashly not take part in the game. When that strategy started to fail, she obviously reread the thread and threw together that post, selling it to us as her 'notes she made during the game'.

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument that she could have made that post up.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying she made it up as in she made it up out of thin air, I know exactly what you mean when you claim she made it up after the fact.

I disagree with that interpretation (that she made it up after the fact) because that interpretation necessarily means that she hasn't been paying attention which is, arguably, one of the surest signs of scum (i.e. scum don't have to hunt/pay close attention).

I of course want her to respond as well, I'm just making my position clear that as of now I

do not

think there has been a decent case made against spring, certainly not good enough to lynch her today.