Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[don_johnson]

/confirm

[don_johnson]

vote: don_johnson

there. i posted.

[don_johnson]

Self voting is ridiculously stupid. It accomplishes nothing positive for the town and provides no information that we can use to determine your alignment. Knock it off. Seriously. Don't try to defend this boneheaded action or you will just be risking getting yourself lynched for no benefit whatsoever.

sorry, i thought we were in the random/joke vote phase.

unvote

funny. it is "ridiculously stupid" and has "no benefit", yet you use my self vote to show your towniness.

just to be clear: have we moved past the random/joke vote phase?

[don_johnson]

You're acting like the random phase has no actual purpose. Besides breaking the ice, sometimes scumtells can come through during that time.

my vote broke the ice. by virtue of us still talking about it, it has obviously generated some type of discussion. discussion is pro town. also, the idea of the random vote is multi faceted. by randomly choosing someone we can hope to land on scum. if we land on scum then perhaps a "scumtell" comes through in their reaction. so why wouldn't a "scumtell" come through in someone elses reaction to a self vote? i.e. you say my lynch has no benefit. does that mean that you know i'm town?

Beyond that, self voting is bad

all the time

.

i believe you mean "anti-town." self voting can actually be a "good" scum manuver later in the game if properly executed. again, the fact that we are having a discussion contradicts your assertion that self voting is ridiculous. come to think of it, it also contradicts the fact you are trying to make with the above statement.

What was your intent other than to say "haw haw, I self voted! Isn't that goofy?"

generate discussion.

This is a team game, remember? If the town doesn't work together, there is no chance for success. Advising you the way I did is intended to move you towards better play.

uh, thanks?

I don't know if you are town or not, but statistically you are probably town unless I have a reason to believe otherwise. My intent was not to appear now townie, that was just a side effect.

your intent is irrelevant. you

used

my self vote. you responded. now we are talking. do you still believe a self vote in the random phase to be "ridiculous and stupid"?

[don_johnson]

my vote broke the ice. by virtue of us still talking about it, it has obviously generated some type of discussion. discussion is pro town.

Discussion does not always benefit the town. If two townies get into an argument and one of them gets lynched over it, their discussion was ultimately bad for the town. Our goal here is to find scum, so our discussion needs to be aimed at that end. Discussions about self votes rarely help find scum.

discussion always helps town. that is my stand.

also, the idea of the random vote is multi faceted

. by randomly choosing someone we can hope to land on scum. if we land on scum then perhaps a "scumtell" comes through in their reaction. so why wouldn't a "scumtell" come through in someone elses reaction to a self vote? i.e. you say my lynch has no benefit. does that mean that you know i'm town?

Two aspects of this are completely wrong. First, you're ignoring the fact that we can gain information about a random voter's alignment. If said voter votes for himself, there is no alignment related information to gain. Second, scumtells usually come out during random votes

when a scum reacts to someone voting for them

. The idea is that the scum is more concerned about being lynched than a town player, so they will be more sensitive about a vote for them and react too strongly.

multifaceted was meant to imply that there are more than just two ideas and motivations behind the random voting phase. you make no sense here. first, are you implying that you can determine someones alignment based on who they randomly vote for? the self vote promotes discussion. through that discussion scum can be exposed.

also, as i said: someones reaction to a self vote can also contain a scumtell. the point you italicize is part of the point i made. we agree on that. no aspect of what i said is wrong. you have misunderstood.

this:

Second, scumtells usually come out during random votes when a scum reacts to someone voting for them.

equals this:

by randomly choosing someone we can hope to land on scum. if we land on scum then perhaps a "scumtell" comes through in their reaction.

see? so we agree.

i believe you mean "anti-town." self voting can actually be a "good" scum manuver later in the game if properly executed. again, the fact that we are having a discussion contradicts your assertion that self voting is ridiculous. come to think of it, it also contradicts the fact you are trying to make with the above statement.

Wow, this makes no sense whatsoever. Self voting is good for the town because it's good for the scum in certain situations? So why on God's Green Earth would it be good for a

townie

to self vote? If I didn't know better, I'd see this as you admitting that you are scum!

who said "self voting is good for the town because it's good for the scum in certain situations"? if one is scum, then self voting can be a "good" manuver late in the game. i.e. to cut off discussion and drop the hammer on oneself. no one implied or said anything about this being good for town. you said "self voting is always bad." what you should have said is "self voting is anti-town." either way, you are wrong. self voting is not

always

anything.

do you still believe a self vote in the random phase to be "ridiculous and stupid"?

Yes. You haven't demonstrated that self voting is good for the town in any way, except "it generates discussion." Is it still good for the town if we are both townies and this argument leads to one of us being lynched because you didn't realize what you were doing?

you seem to be overly concerned with lynching. its quite early in the day. also, for someone so concerned with this argument leading to a mislynch, you seem to be pushing it towards that end quite forcefully. are you going to vote me now?

[don_johnson]

If two townies get into an argument that still helps an attentive town as much for other people's reactions as the two arguing. If one of those arguing is lynched, then it's the voting that's causing a problem, not the discussion itself. More discussion means more analysis, if a townie can't cope with the quantity that's a personal time issue that could be overcome by eg. just analysing key exchanges. Given it's the primary source and basically the point of the game for the town, discussion = good. Portraying discussion as sometimes bad (or trying to keep discussion low) seems slightly dubious.

QFT.

Combined with other factors, random votes can help determine someone's alignment. For example, scum might vote for one of their parteners as a low risk way to distance themselves. If you think two players are scumparteners, such a vote may be evidence that such a relationship exists.

Can you provide any examples of how self voting promotes discussion that helps the town?

hindsight is always 20/20. once you find one scum it is definitely worth going back and analyzing their vote pattern. however, there is usually going to be no way to pick out a scum pair using

only

the random voting phase. so yes, combined with other factors, random votes can help determine someones alignment. just like my self vote. to answer the question: see above. and of course, hypothetically, if this discussion were to tailspin into your lynch and you flipped scum then my self vote would have been extremely good for town.

If you are town, why would you want to do something that is demonstrably only good for scum? That makes no sense.

see above. without seeing how this game plays out you cannot say whether my self vote was good or bad. i believe discussion to be good for town and i believe my self vote generated at least some.

I'm not pushing towards your lynch. I'm not voting for you. I don't find you suspicious. You are using some weird logic and I am interested in seeing where this goes, but if you are willing, I'd be fine with droping this altogether.

you are free to drop it anytime you wish.

not voting is not necessarily scummy. not giving reasons for a vote or answering questions about a vote is.

chaosomega: do you have anything to say relevant to your current vote?

[don_johnson]

hindsight is always 20/20. once you find one scum it is definitely worth going back and analyzing their vote pattern. however, there is usually going to be no way to pick out a scum pair using

only

the random voting phase. so yes, combined with other factors, random votes can help determine someones alignment. just like my self vote. to answer the question: see above. and of course, hypothetically, if this discussion were to tailspin into your lynch and you flipped scum then my self vote would have been extremely good for town.

Why are you implying that I'm scum? Do you find me suspicious? If so, why?

i am not implying that you are scum. i find you slightly suspicious because you have said that my self vote was ridiculous and implied that the discussion generated by said vote would be useless to town, yet you continue the discussion. also, now you are voting Juls to "see where it goes". which is more anti town: self voting in the RVS or abstaining from voting during said time with a reasonable excuse?

you are free to drop it anytime you wish.

I'd love to, really, I would. But you are using such weird logic in this discussion. You are unwilling to recognize any risk to yourself, and you keep turning it back on me, like I will be lynched regardless of the fact that I'm not pushing you, nor did I find you suspicous before. You're certainly getting there, though.

how is my logic "wierd"? you initially said:

Self voting is ridiculously stupid. It accomplishes nothing positive for the town and provides no information that we can use to determine your alignment.

now, from the ensuing discussion you are threatening me with:

I'm not pushing you, nor did I find you suspicous before. You're certainly getting there, though.

how could i be "getting there" if the discussion is useless and the self vote provides no information that you can use to determine my alignment? simple answer: i couldn't. the self vote generated discussion. the disccussion may or may not have been helpful to town. just like any other discussion that stems from a random vote. even if i were to be lynched because "i didn't realize" what i was doing, town would have both discussion and a full bandwagon to analyze in order to track down scum. that means this:

If two townies get into an argument and one of them gets lynched over it, their discussion was ultimately bad for the town.

is not necessarily true. this happens all the time.

[don_johnson]

Quote from Don_J:

funny. it is "ridiculously stupid" and has "no benefit", yet you use my self vote to show your towniness.

Wait, what does this have to do with anything? Everyone's trying to prove their alleged townieness; the point was that selfvoting generally tells little about the voter. Yes?

mega never actually said the word "useless", but i felt he was implying that my self vote was exactly that. i was just pointing out that it wasn't as he was obviously

using

it to show his towniness.

i liked your post, though i would definitely request less "stream of consciousness" posting. i do it as well sometimes, but i find it easier to communicate when things are structured well.

vote: megatheory

the more i think about it the more i realize that on page 1 he used my self vote to not only paint me in an anti town light, but to show off his towniness. he pseudo threatened me with a lynch by implying that i didn't understand what i was doing, pushed the discussion on(perhaps due to ego), and then backed off after threatening to find me suspicious. not finding me suspicious, but threatening to.

if i were to assign each player a number and then roll a die to cast my vote "randomly", i would have just as much chance of landing on myself as any of you. to insinuate that a self vote in the rvs is any more or less informational or beneficial to town than any other random vote in the same stage of the game

before

ensuing discussion reveals any relevant information regarding players alignments is bad logic.

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should

definitely

lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

[don_johnson]

ip: what a wonderful, long, and insightful post. you must be town.

don_johnson: 3

1) First off, the self-vote which has been a good spark of discussion and has brought up the point about self-pointing (if it has one). It sure was ballsy to start off that way. I have to say that at first, I saw it as just something stupid and meaningless to get the game started for you, especially since you did unvote shortly after. But as time goes on, that feeling has changed....
2)

THIS IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT!!!! WHY?!?!?!

3) If I had to take a stance on you right now, I would say that you and mega agreed at the start of this game to throw a pointless conversation out there right off the bat so that you two scum buddies could really spin the heads of the townies. If this is true, it will be very interesting to see how it progresses. If this is false, you have mega to blame (and yourself a little) for really putting a bull's eye on you, in my eyes.
4) Please post something about another aspect of this game soon or I we will have no other info to work off of to get a fair picture of who you are. If you are town, I would get out of the arguement ASAP. Especially since the door was opened for you to finish but you didn't.

FOS: don_johnson

- post something more!

to answer your question(which i bolded): perhaps its because that is the only thing people are talking to me about. i am aware of other goings on in the thread and will comment on them when i see fit. funny how this is the only direct question you ask me. post something more?

okay, here's something more:

you are willingly hopping onto a bandwagon with two players you find scummier than the person you are trying to lynch. you rate both chaosomega and me as scummier than megatheory(co:3,dj:3, mt:3.5). yet you vote for megatheory. please explain your rationale behind this vote.

[don_johnson]

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

This statement seems strange to me. This is very anti-town. I can only see a scum saying this. If we lynch Mega first and he flips town then you have covered youself because you know he is town therefore your request to be lynched would not apply. If we lynch you first and you do flip scum you are trying to get mega to be lynched next and taking one for the team. I am less convinced you and mega are scumbuddies and more convinced that you are scum. Let's pretend now that you are town. Why would you want to get yourself lynched if mega flips scum? I don't like this at all.

more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing. if mega were lynched and flipped scum this would cast enough doubt as to my alignment that i feel it could be devastatingly bad for town in a lylo situation. the other scum would have a premade case to get me lynched thereby costing town the game. this would work vice versa. i never said that one of us is definitely scum, and i never stated that lynching one of us would offer any clues as to the others alignment. i just don't want to hand scum an easy argument at lylo.

To be honest, the third vote made on mega was made as I was making my near hour and a half post (watching fball too) so I thought that I was going to be vote 3. However, I am very comfortable with my vote on mega as his reaction and possible lynching will tell me much more about my other feelings and analyses that I didn't post of as well as the more general analysis that I posted.
I guess that that doesn't really affect me much (joining a forming wagon) as long as I am comfortable in my reasoning with my vote. I will VERY rarely vote unless I have very sound reasoning to vote.

I hope that answers your questions.

not in the least. are you saying that you want to lynch megatheory for "information" instead of lynching one of your top two scum suspects? how would lynching megatheory clue you in to anyone elses alignment, especially considering he has been tied up with me for most of the thread? where is this "sound reasoning" you speak of?

i liked your post, though i would definitely request less "stream of consciousness" posting. i do it as well sometimes, but i find it easier to communicate when things are structured well.

This makes me laugh because you have trouble finding your Shift key. But seriously, you're exaggerating Mega's scumminess in your game theory exchange and saying one of you must be scum is very wrong. (Protip: Townies disagree often, and you are getting tunnel vision. There will be more than one scum, why not take a break from Mega and try to give opinions on who the others might be? You're allowed to have some initiative rather than wait for questions, you know. -_-)

i NEVER said that one of us

must

be scum. thanks for noticing, but believe me, i am aware of the perils of tunnel vision.

[don_johnson]

still waiting on insanepenguin to answer why he wrote this:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

but did this:

All in all, I want to say: Vote: megatheory.

unvote, vote:insanepenguin02

i understand rl delays, but your initial answer did not suffice and i don't feel that this should just be swept under the rug. it is suggestive that ip knows my alignment. only scum know alignments of other players.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: just to be clear, i am saying that ip may know that i am town. he may also know that mega is town as well but by placing his vote on a growing bandwagon he has a better chance to avoid accountability. i.e. if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched. it just doesn't sit well with me for someone to vote for who they think is the third scummiest player in the game.

[don_johnson]

Posts like these strike me as extremely odd. Why in the world would you be talking about a lynch or lose situation this early in the game? This line of thinking reeks of desperation. A lylo situation is not even a remote possibility at this point so why the "warning"/attempt at contingency plans?

desperation? are you implying that i am desperate? why would that be? i'm not getting this at all. we are on page 5 and nowhere near a lynch. my hypothetical "lylo" situation was just to show that i am aware of what i'm doing. also, lylo is a possibility in any game. it is not a warning, just a very sensible suggestion.

I see it being scummy, but I don't see too much indication that he knows your alignment - unless you're scumbuddies with him. Or he knows you're town but is deliberately voting his scumbuddy instead (in such fashion that he's becoming suspected, no less) because he knows you're town.

Scummy yes. Strong case of very scummy alignment-knowledge? Nope.

On Preview: O . . . kay. In my opinion, actually joining a bandwagon on a Townie comes with its own set of difficulties for scum. But I see where you're coming from there now and it makes general sense. You're really saying it's less about knowing your alignment and more about joining a more advantageous Townie bandwagon, yeah?

less about knowing alignments, yes. if he is scum then he knows alignments. it is peculiar voting which draws my attention. normally one would vote for the person most likely to be scum. but ip is voting for the player with the third place rating. why? it could lend itself to ip knowing i am town and jumping a bandwagon. it could lend itself to mega being ip's scumbuddy. it could lenditself to chaos being his scumbuddy(not voting, but scoring high so that if chaos is lynched later, he can point to his original post and say, "see i thought so."). it could lend itself to me being his scumbuddy for the same reasons. in any scenario i can think of to describie why he is voting the way he is, however, there is a clear parralel. that being that in every scenario, he is scum. so unless he can explain why he is voting that way i have no alternative but to begin campaigning for his lynch.

[don_johnson]

Well in all actuality, I really wanted to get some reaction out of mega. As he has not responded much since, I have been left without the additional info (reaction) that I wanted. I do think that you, don, have been scummier than mega overall, HOWEVER I wanted to see some more specific reaction out of mega, thus the vote. If you want me to vote for you, I have absolutely no problem with that but for now, until I get more from mega, my vote stands.

this is the easy answer. it still does not explain your scoring system. if you wanted to pressure mega, you would not have listed him as your third place scum candidate.

[don_johnson]

I think that this post right here shows that nobody really knows anything at this point and are just trying to dig for info for their own and for the group's good. What if this, what if that? We don't know and that is why I asked so many questions and enjoy sparking discussion!

And if it apparently so clear to you that I am a certain role in the game, why would I make such a "peculiar" vote in your opinion? IMO that wouldn't be a very smart move for me to make. And see, I didn't vote for the one that I saw "most scummy" though am getting a pretty good reaction out of you. Why is that?

you are saying your vote on mega was a pressure vote. what kind of pressure were you hoping to apply by giving him such an obvious out? i.e. if you wanted to pressure him you could have made a much shorter post and jumped on the bandwagon to gauge his reaction. you, however, wrote a novella about every players scumminess or towniness. what kind of reaction did you expect other than, "huh? why are you not voting for who you think is most likely scummy?"

had you not said yourself that:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

you would have a case. had you not rated TWO players

more

scummy than mega, you might also have been able to get away with the "it was a pressure vote" excuse. you, however, bandwagoned. plain and simple. plum has already pointed out the wifom defense which is poor. even still, if you ask me that question i'd say that you just slipped up.

why are you getting a reaction out of me? oh, i don't know, maybe because i'm paying attention.

[don_johnson]

Wow - I have played in much more fun games than here!

really? why is this not fun?

[don_johnson]

i have no problem with a claim. penguin has done nothing to alleviate suspicion. his explanation of a "pressure vote" seems contrived.

[don_johnson]

unvote

can't say i necessarily believe you, but this warrants discussion. everything you've done since coming under pressure has reeked of desperation. a "tracker" claim seems par for the course.

[don_johnson]

i'd like for ip to get into the discussion a bit more. a pr claim isn't a free pass. you have done nothing but omgus against your "three scummiest" players and presented nothing in the way of hard evidence. how do you feel about juls? you scored her at 7, i believe.

porkens: don't know your meta, but i don't see you as necessarily anti-town. who are your top picks for lynch and why? please include what it is you found scummy enough about ip to put him at L-1. for the record, i agree that an L-1 claim is standard.

[don_johnson]

There's no way his wagon wasn't scum driven

. I still think he's scum because if I was his partner, I would probably bus him, too.

the only way for you to

know

that the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. but

definitely

? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.

canadianbovine: are you aware that ip has claimed a power role? i still find him scummy, i'm just not sure if you noticed he claimed or not. your post didn't seem to mention it. also, please stop saying the day 1 lynch doesn't matter. it does. yes, sheer odds point to a mislynch, but there is a huge difference between the best lynch, a good lynch, a not so good lynch, and the absolute worst lynch.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: mod can you fix my quote tags, sorry.

[don_johnson]

the only way for you to

know

that the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. but

definitely

? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.

So you think a typical town would run up penguin to L-1 in that situation without any scum voting for him?

typical is an extremely subjective term. short answer, yes. ip's post was horrible. do i believe there was no scum on the wagon? no, but i accept the possibility. i'm just saying to choose your words carefully here. if ip

is

scum, then he could have pretty readily been sandbagged by 6 eager townies while his scum partner(s) faded into the background. smart scum isn't going to push a wagon it doesn't need to.

[don_johnson]

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

[don_johnson]

yeah, sorry. i was just trying to make sense of what was being said.

[don_johnson]

Yeah, IP's not even trying to be helpful now. Given that he did put the effort into his series of questions and answers earlier I'm not inclined to believe he's an angsty townie. He dies comes deadline if nothing else major comes up.

i would like to see more contribution as well. not sure if i will agree with a lynch. depends on the rest of the day(i.e. a counterclaim).

Don doesn't find Porkens anti-town? Even though Porkens hasn't contributed really at all? That's being (mildly) suspiciously overgenerous.

i have reread porkens posts. they are not suspicious to me. the L-1 vote is almost suspicious, but somebody has to do it. his laziness in helping lynch scum could be just that. later in the game it would be more suspicious, but on day1 anyone who actually dropped the hammer would be stupid. that said, let's be cautious with putting people at L-1 as long as canadianbovine walks among us.

Megatheory states there are no cops in this game (from flavour NPC kills). He also states that scum must be on IP's wagon. I find both these statements overly sure and dubious. And Mega, yeah I'm serious about that promise. It's not about whether IP is town or scum, it's about dissuading scum (and overeager townies) from cutting off discussion time in a constantly deadlined game.

i agree. megatheory has been racking up scumtells from page one when he insinuated i was town. not sure yet if he is slipping, or if he is just choosing poor words.

Okay, seriously, people who think D1 doesn't matter are wrong. Discussion now is just as important as any other day, skilled townies can pick up on scummy actions just like any other day etc. Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy. I'm looking at you, bovine.

i wouldn't say scummy. it is wifomic. its poor play.

Either bovine is not reading the thread, or bovine is BSing. Going to go with BSing here,

FoS: canadianbovine

. Also, believe it or not, "consistent posting" is not an excuse for you to look scummy. -_-

i've thought on this, but, well, they may just really be canadian.

Atronach, stop and think about that plan for two seconds. Tracker not equal cop. If IP is a tracker and targeted scum, the scum will just claim a powerrole. Or IP could target a powerrole, and they'll be forced to claim, so we're not going to know which from IP alone. Or IP could target a vanilla townie. Or IP could be scum and claim to have targeted a vanilla townie. Do you see where I'm going with this?

there are so many variables, but letting him live a night or two could be very helpful. if we have a doc, and we lynch scum, then doc doesn't have to protect him. let the mafia confirm him or leave him be. whoever he investigates can confirm him. i don't think theres anyway to completely confirm him without his eventulal death, though. at least none that i can see. if we think he's lying we lynch him day 2. the most important thing to do to spin this to our advantage is to lynch scum today. so everyone not worried about who we lynch should start paying attention.

Oh Porkens, not you to. Even if we assumed the game had no cop that's not reason to assume there must be tracker, or that if there were and IP weren't they would they'd need to claim now. And it's GREAT to know you have no reason to believe IP is scum after putting him at L-1 and saying other cases had convinced you.

[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]

your reasoning is somewhat sound, but lynching an uncounterclaimed pr on day 1 is just plain silly. if you are so sure he's scum then we should be able to pick out his partner(s) from all this mess. i would like to hear from juls, she posted earlier to say she would post later. she hasn't as of the time that i'm writing this. apologies in advance if i get ninja'd.

[don_johnson]

Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy.

i wouldn't say scummy. it is wifomic. its poor play.

That's not what WIFOM is. Also, gah, with posts like the one you just made it is really hard to not to start mentioning connections between players. (Not that it stopped you suggesting I look for connections from IP.)

wifomic in the sense of whether or not complacency is a scumtell. porkens might just be

lazy

. cb might just not be observant.

Yes, IP is right. He can't prove himself in one night. Therefore, we must leave him alive until the endgame. *Nod, nod* Also, did he seriously just blame his lack of analysis on the weather?

NOONE suggested leaving him alone until endgame.

your alternative is to lynch an uncounterclaimed town power role on day 1?

had you actually read my suggestion.

Screw it.

I'm saying this much in case I die N1

, but don't expect me to elaborate further unless one of them flips scum: Possible insanepenguin02 - canadianbovine - don_johnson scumteam. That is all.

holy pile of crap statement. you are insinuating that the person(me) probably most responsible for pointing out ip's initial flawed post and then actively campaigning for his lynch is in league with said character. the third member of your "scum team" is a player who very well may have accidentally hammered ip? the fact you are trying to call a scum team on day 1 is far worse than speculating on scum partners which has already been discussed as poor strategy. also, your blanket statement(by sheer probability) has around a 25% chance of completely screwing up the game for town. odds suggest that each of the three names you mentioned(and this would work with any three players names) has a 25-30% chance of flipping scum. and you don't want to explain this? how could you possibly narrow down the field in such a manner? why would you even post this this early in the day? not to mention the generic, wifomic,
nonsensical "if i die tonight" bullshit.

vote: nameless

this is nowhere near omgus. nameless is posting wifom to confuse town. there is no other explanation for posting the things he has posted at this point of the game. my vote stays until you explain yourself logically.

[don_johnson]

you better start posting better cause i am very tempted to vote for you, my own little lynch all liars mantra is lynch all who attempt to guess on day one

the entire scum team

...

statements like this draw my attention. i.e. how would someone know that three players make up the

entire scum team

? geraintm, please explain why you are assuming(like nameless) that we are dealing with a three player scum team?

that aside, if we've been paying attention: there were two nk's to start this game. we are probably dealing with either rival families or an sk. correct? i am not as familiar with twelve person set-ups but i would assume that rival families would have to be pairings and not threesomes. though geraintm may have just chosen words poorly in their post, this idea makes my suspicion of nameless swell just a bit more. i never really trust players who point out obvious things like ,"in case i'm not here tomorrow..." but i digress. i would like more discussion on recent matters. still waiting for juls to pick up where they left off.

[don_johnson]

don, it was just a follow on from his post, where he named three people. i have no clue how many scum are in the game. it is just poor choice of words, no more no less

i figured. just had to ask. why do you think nameless named three? does that strike you as suspicious(aside from the

general

suspiciousness of the statement)?

ip: please give us your opinion on nameless.

[don_johnson]

i think its scum and sk. Scum usually shoot the night kill, if im not mistaken, as there are anti night kill roles such as bullet proof, which stops scum night kills. I don't know why, but when I think of beheaded I think of SK's.

I don't quite understand Nameless' claim of their being a 3 scum team that he's already named. especially when one of them is un counterclaimed tracker.

what stirkes me as odd is that he would choose three as his number. two night kills, one a beheading, and he chooses a "three" player scum team. are you thinking two or three scum? my thought is that tossing out a three player scum team may be an sk trying to throw town off track. i am speculating, but until more discussion ensues or nameless comes up with something better my vote will stay. consider it a pressure vote at this point.

[don_johnson]

This is a lot like what I was talking about in post 185. Penguin claimed. This needs to be put to the test. If he finds scum, we lynch the one he found. If they flip town, we lynch IP. If they are in fact scum, we'll see if he can find scum again. If he doesn't find scum, we lynch IP. Doctor, should there be one, should keep IP safe during the night.

it is just not that simple.

ip: exactly what kind of information can you get? people have mentioned that if you investigate a town pr you would get the same result as scum? sorry, i have not played with a tracker yet.

as i said before, doc protection for ip should maybe depend on whether who we lynch today flips scum or town. ip so far has proven nothing to us. though it doesn't make sense to lynch him, protecting should not be a definite. also, by not letting scum know for sur what we are doing it gives us a better chance of avoiding an nk.

i will not worry about deadline just yet. for now i suggest we try and find someone other than an uncounterclaimed town power role.

[don_johnson]

Finished readthrough (finally!). A post will come tonight with my thoughts, I just need to turn my notes into a coherent post.

Please save it until we've made a decision about penguin.

Also, let's not direct the doc, if there is one.

why and why?

i'd like juls thoughts. i am not saying to direct the doc, but agreeing on some guidelines that would help us in confirming our "tracker" would be helpful to town. if all tracker can do is confirm

vanilla townies

then we needn't waste protection on him. if he is who he says he is then he's probably safe at this point anyway. we can lynch him tomorrow if we still feel it makes sense. then at least we can confirm his one investigation and him.

[don_johnson]

@ Don, I "assumed" a three player scumteam because I noticed interactions between ... three players. I find it interesting that you ask the question to geraintm, rather than myself, though. Why was that?

i asked geraintm to guage a reaction, to which i got what i consider a null tell. naming a scum team or pairing is bad on day 1. you are feeding mafia strategy. you have no real case against two of the three you name, and you refuse to draw out the connections you've made. i hope what you posted is not your connections, because by those accounts we are all connected. so if you do die tonight town is left to wonder and suddenly begins picking off the players you named in hopes of finding scum? is that your hope? that is extremely anti-town. the mega/don scum pairing was brought up, which is what prompted me to post the statement that juls can't seem to stomach. with two kills a night(three if town has a vig), lylo is way more of a possibility than you think, so my statement was simply good advice to town: don't bring a fallguy to lylo. it costs town the game more often than not. that being said i am happy to lynch you today.

*gets behind wagon, starts to push* "come on! let's lynch this guy!"

juls: good observation on dan. do you feel he has the best chance of flipping scum? because it doesn't seem like he would be a good informational lynch. your suspicions of me seem to waver a bit. i have explained the quote you question twice now. you do realize that day 3 could be lylo for town? i disagree with your ip plan, but i do think he should be left until tomorrow.

unless

he starts doing some actual scum hunting i say we almost have to get his results and lynch him sonner rather than later, regardless. it would be a nicer scenario if we lynch scum today. also, why would you assume someone countering ip's results to be scum? that makes no sense to me. in any case:

*hands juls a flier with a digitally enhanced picture of nameless swinging from a tree branch*

"vote nameless"

[don_johnson]

So there is a lot of chance, I guess. IMO, not the easiest thing to claim if I were actually scum. For the good of the town, I shouldn't have posted what I did earlier by asking so many questions and looking suspicious in so many of your eyes' because then I could have lived a few more days and given the town some very good info, I would imagine. But now I am targeted by fellow townies (I would assume) who want me lynched EVEN AFTER A POSSIBLE GOOD TRACK IN NIGHT ONE and obviously would be targeted by the mafia due to being a power role.

it is wifom like this that keeps me from embracing you as town. rather than whining about it and living in the past, the best thing you can do is start scum hunting. you need to change players minds about you, not just keep apologizing and regretting your behavior. also, as a townie you should be less concerned with your own demise. your death will vindicate you if you are who you say you are, and will also serve to confirm whoever it is you choose to target. that said:


*hands juls a flier with a digitally enhanced picture of nameless swinging from a tree branch*

"vote nameless"

Between the Don/Nameless/Ger conversation, the last few interactions, I believe, have gone into namelesses corner.

care to elaborate? your only defense at this point that you are not scum is that you are lazy. do you plan on playing like this the entire game?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: sorry copy/pasted: should read *hands ip a flier...*

porkens: "here's yours" **hands porkens a flier with a digitally enhanced picture of nameless swinging from a tree branch*

[don_johnson]

your only defense at this point that you are not scum is that you are lazy. do you plan on playing like this the entire game?

What do you want? An un-cc'd claim? Some kind of proof? Gimmie a break.

No, I don't.

i would like some more analysis. that is all. i was not implying that you are scum, just pointing out that you seem to be enjoying playing on the fringe. the question was somewhat rhetorical. i don't know you, but i am expecting you to contribute more.

also:

*hands porkens a button that says "vote nameless"*

i am getting quite the loner vibe from nameless. i know his "off track" posting may not seem scummy to most, but with the flavor of the first nk's and his pointing to a three person scum team with no real connections and then refusing to comment further on it points to sk. at least for me. its worth a shot. ip is by no means "clear" in my mind, i just see more value in him as a day 2 lynch if we choose to go that route. live scum can prove helpful in flushing out more scum, if you get my meaning.

[don_johnson]

Tell me more about this "loner" vibe...?

for starters:

Screw it. I'm saying this much in case I die N1, but don't expect me to elaborate further unless one of them flips scum: Possible insanepenguin02 - canadianbovine - don_johnson scumteam. That is all.

the "if i die" speculation should be reserved for twilight, and even then, should be fully explained. why do i use the term "lonely"? because to me, fear of nightkill is a shared dilemma. we are all at risk of dying at night, to single yourself out is suspicious.

also, wanting to lynch an uncc'ed tracker on day 1 is like saying "we(i) don't need any help in this game." town needs help. mafia and sk do not.

Yeesh. I make one sidenote and suddenly it's FLAME ON.

"poor me, why is everyone picking on me?" there are in truth only a couple of us who responded to these posts. so yeah, i feel like nameless has isolated himself.

[don_johnson]

don - You have an intriguing case building. Looking back over nameless's posts, I can see where that "vibe" you are getting is coming from.

*Take the handout from don_johnson , folds it up, and puts it in the right, back pants pocket*

are you kidding? please show us where you "can see where that "vibe" you are getting is coming from.". piggybacking on my case makes you look even worse. you do realize that, don't you?

[don_johnson]

So anyway, I propose we lynch one of the following players:

Porkens

, for lurking and the dubious L-1.

i don't agree. i think porkens has been a null tell. they don't fall into the category of "lurker" for me, and the L-1 was a null tell play(though maybe not the smartest). though setting up a "quidckhammer" may be a viable way to catch newb scum, you run the risk of having someone like canadianbovine stepping in and "accidentally" hammering. whether or not they(cb) are scum is still undecided.

Danchaofan

, for saying VERY little but filler (see Juls's #224), especially after comments like "if I don't see scum hunting, eventually, I'll be serious.".

i will do a reread here. is lynching a player who has little interaction with the group going to be all that beneficial for town?

u]don_johnson[/u], for the self vote, following overly long/pointless discussion, following mega vote and the awful "wifomic? yes. but only until my death." self pairing THING, still disagree with the way he jumped on the IP bandwagon with what I see as the (then exagerated) smallest reason, seriously arguing semantics (eg. #172), frequently using "wifomic" to cast false suspicion on arbitrary players/posts, for a second time exagerating and pushing a single minor point as the only reason to lynch somebody (that's me!), make it overly clear that he doesn't know the scum setup, trying to partially direct the doc (#220), aaaaaand epic stretching by taking a cassual comment ("Yeesh ...") as serious evidence that someone (me again) is SK.

its nice how you detail my actions but don't really explain

how

they are scummy. my votes have been pretty well explained. you disagree with my jumping on the ip bandwagon? intersting. i thought i was like the first one on that wagon. jumping? more like pushing. as i stated earlier, my reasoning was not simply that he voted his third scummiest. my vote on ip was because of how they voted. they made a list with actual rankings of scumminess and

then

voted the third on that list. a pressure vote it was not.

also, i believe you were speculating as to whether or not cb was scum due to their "accidental" hammer vote on ip. that is what i was referring to as wifom. that is wifom. any argument you have in the game of mafia regarding whether a person would act a certain way because of their alignment is wifom. i bring it up alot because it exists on almost every page.

what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game. again, you exhibit the "loner" vibe.

i'm not saying you are sk. i'm saying you are suspicious. suspicious enough to lynch day 1 for sure. interesting how you strawman a case against me while accusing me of it.

@ Don, first you say I'm "feeding mafia strategy" by daring to mention something for later, but then accuse me of refusing to elaborate ... which is what you've been calling scummy in the first place. Do you WANT me to actually feed mafia strategy?

One last time guys, noting possible connections for future consideration not equal seriously claiming I've found a three man scum team.

Everybody else seeing Don's strawman here? Good. (Also, I work under the basic assumption the town aren't as retarded as you make them out to be, and will not mindlessly lynch a player because one townie noted some connections earlier.) The fliers are a nice touch, though.

noting connections with no explanation is crap. no i don't want you to feed mafia strategy, but you already fucked up by drawing connections. without explaining yourself you leave the players in question with no possible way of defending themselves from what may eventually turn into an angry mob. i don't think anyone's seeing strawman here. i am not

accusing

you of refusing to elaborate. you

are

refusing to elaborate. thats a fact. trying to insinuate that i think town is retarded is strawmanning. its putting words into my mouth to make yourself look better. why? because you have no case and you are scum and you need to rely on smoke and mirrors to get your votes. me? i'm grassroots!

*begins handing out fliers with digitally enhanced pictures of nameless' body being dragged around a vacant lot behind a pick-up*

"vote nameless! you won't regret it!"

why are you no longer pushing for ip's lynch? your new "best lynch" list is two players you are labeling as "lurkers" and an omgus. you do realize that, don't you?

[don_johnson]

what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game. again, you exhibit the "loner" vibe.

Don’t direct the doctor. If we start putting out direction to a possible doctor you are broadcasting to scum what town wants to have done. Let the doctor decide if there is one. Lets keep them hidden!

noone is "directing" the doctor", but having a strategy isn't bad. ultimately, if we have a doctor they are always free to make up their own mind, but in the case of ip, i strongly suggest not wasting the doc's ability on them

if

, and only

if

, we lynch scum today. i am not asking doc to claim, or in any way do something that could hurt town. ip has shown themselves scummy. tracker results, as many have now pointed out, have the distinct possibility of outing a town power role, so protecting said player would be silly in any case, but if we lynch scum today, protecting them is unecessary. in my opinion. "broadcasting" strategy to scum is bound to happen. the key is finding a strategy that works whether they know it or not. it is all i am suggesting.

[don_johnson]

Big FOS: don_johnson

.

It seems pretty suspicious to me that you would tell the doctor NOT to waste their power on someone that IP fingers.

It seems like scum not wanting a doctor to protect a town power role. Let the friggin doctor decide if there is one. You just directed the doctor after saying no one is directing the doctor. You can direct a doctor by insinuation. If there is a doctor out there, please make up your own mind and do not do anything that ANYONE tells you to do. It may be scum (like don_johnson) directing you.

juls, you are either misunderstanding me, or i am not being clear. i said nothing about the doctor in regards to who ip fingers. i am saying that the doctors power would be wasted protecting ip,

if

we lynch scum today. i am speaking in terms of a town strategy, not trying to tell the doctor what to do.

i am putting this up for discussion:

if we lynch a townie today it makes sense to offer ip protection. if he is town he will need protection and we would better benefit with results from an investigation. even if he is scum, results from a fraudulent investigation could turn out to be helpful in either outing ip as scum, or his partner(s).

if we lynch scum today, then we need the results of ip's investigation less so, and so i would say protecting ip in that scenario would not be as important. this is my opinion, i am not trying to direct the doctor. i am trying to help town find a strategy where ip is useful, because as of right now, they are not.

if we lynch scum today, and ip is town, scum would be better off nking them(ip) than leaving them alive due to their "investigative powers". if they do so, then ip is confirmed at the start of day two. ip confirmed is more helpful than living, breathing, useless non scum hunting ip.

if mafia leaves ip alive, then we have results of their investigation and go from their, possibly outing another scum day 2. further, if ip's investigation sounds suspicious, we lynch ip confirming not only ip(if they flip town), but also whoever they investigated. get it?

if we lynch scum today, ip could be just as helpful dead as they are alive. if we mislynch, ip would be better off "doctor protected" and alive for the start of day 2. that's what i'm saying.

i don't think it really benefits mafia to know this strategy. if doc wants to protect ip regardless, then by all means they should do it. the fact that they might will have mafia guessing and will therefore work in our favor anyway. i said nothing in regards to ip's target and how anyone should act forthwith. i bolded the above part of your statement which is a complete miscommunication between us.

also, how do you feel about nameless?

*hands juls another flier... and a button*

[don_johnson]

LET THE DOCTOR DECIDE!!!!!

If the hypothetical doctor decides the mafia is forced to take a chance on an IP night kill and possibly come up empty handed (assuming IP is telling the truth) or focus on somebody else.

Still FoS on don

....

stop leading a potential doctor

. If you do it one more time I am switching my vote to .

veiled threats will get you nowhere and do town no good. i am not deciding for the doctor(if we have one). i am not trying to sway the doctor. nor am i trying to decide this strategy for the town. i am simply giving my thoughts on the subject. the fact that you seem to be turning a deaf ear to my entire theory based on the small misconception you have that i am trying to lead the town doctor is brow raising. i'm not going to bother with an FoS.

do we agree that it is a bad idea to walk blindly into day 2 with no plan whatsoever?

also, according to your previous suggestion,

anyone countering ip's investigation will be scum?

so if ip investigates a town pr and calls them out as scum, they should not counterclaim? so we lynch them(even if they are a town pr) on ip's word? the other option being that if they do counter his investigation we lynch them for "countering"? makes no sense. further, what if ip targets a

vanilla townie

and paints them as scum. we lynch them on ip's word? or they counter, you assume them scum and they are lynched anyway? i am not seeing how your idea is any better than mine.

also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?

[don_johnson]

also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?

If the things you were suggesting had no effect on what mafia does at night I wouldn't have a problem with it but I would rather the doctor make the decision in secret on Day1!!!!!!!

whatever. fact: doctor(if there is one) will make the decision in secret. i don't think it detrimental in the least to have a plan, but obviously this conversation is bothering you(referring to the all caps and multiple exclamation points). what you are not realizing about my plan is that if we follow it, it simply isn't going to matter whether scum knows ip will have doc protection or not. the idea is to create a situation where town has some control over how its remaing players begin day 2. you wanna wing it? go ahead.

[don_johnson]

also, i believe you were speculating as to whether or not cb was scum due to their "accidental" hammer vote on ip. that is what i was referring to as wifom.

I'm not sure WHY you're using the term "hammer vote" (or accidental for that matter) here when there has been no mention from cb or myself about him trying to hammer. Care to explain?

sure. cb claims he had no idea about the claim. if he hadn't read that part, odds are that he hadn't noticed ip was at L-1 just before the claim, or that people had unvoted, thus clearing ip from danger. the way it looked to me is that cb almost accidentally dropped a hammer vote on ip without even realizing what was going on. you speculate that they are no that stupid. which is where my wifom comment came in. this:

(As for the speculation, you see, I have this optimistic outlook on people that I honestly don't believe any player would be stupid enough to make a vote without actually reading any new posts first.)

is wifom. being optimistic isn't a bonafide mafia strategy.

Incidentally: You were the third on the wagon (I still think your point was the weakest against him/exaggerated), depends how you define pressure, that's a rather loose and meaningless usage of wifom then, and you did say that what I was doing specifically pointed to an sk.

yes. a loner vibe points to sk. my case against ip was not weak. for exapmple, would you find it suspicious if i wrote:

nameless and juls are the scummiest two players i see. vote: danchaofan.

i think anyone might as it makes no sense. ip's post screamed scum to me as it just so happened that his vote went onto a live bandwagon instead of on to his top two scum.

I'm no longer pushing for IP's lynch because there is some benefit to leaving him alive for a day or two, and more to the point I know I'm not going to convince enough people to lynch him today.

this is a complete 180. reasonable? yes. but still a complete 180.

misleading the town is obviously a problem too)

agreed, so stop doing it.

and yes, you

do

suck for voting me in the same flawed fashion as you did IP as well as the various other reasons most of which I noted even before you attacked me.

And hey, this attack on me only came after I noticed a few dubious actions of yours and noted you in the connections, so we can ignore it as an overreacting OMGUS too, right?

my reasons for voting you are sound. i have not implied that you have done anything i cannot prove.

you leave the players in question with no possible way of defending themselves from what may eventually turn into an angry mob

This? This is the part where you seriously consider the town would play

that badly

. I'm going to go ahead and keep playing as if the town weren't idiots, if that's okay with you.

townies lynch townies all the time. if you don't want to leave a good trail of information then you're not playing this as a team game. loose speculations in the manner which you put them, without any evidence has the potential to mislead even the smartest townie.

Also, suggesting a strategy for the doctor is the same thing as directing the doctor, no questions. And Don is doing just that (#260, OMG), after it having been explained several times why this is a bad idea.

Don is also strawwomaning Juls in #262

, no questions there either.

please explain this strawman. 262 is a list of questions determined to help me understand what juls is talking about. inn that post i am seeking clarification of her plan.

also, no one has explained why using the doctor to towns advantage is bad. in fact, you and juls just keep reiterating the fact that it is bad, but have not come up with a plausible scenario where it is bad. i have not asked the doctor to expose themselves, but asked town to come to a consensus on how we go about using ip to our advantage. i have asked for input, not dictated others actions.

[don_johnson]

(As for the speculation, you see, I have this optimistic outlook on people that I honestly don't believe any player would be stupid enough to make a vote without actually reading any new posts first.)

is wifom. being optimistic isn't a bonafide mafia strategy.

What WIFOM? I'm getting sick of you slapping that term around without regard (you use it so often and too often it's misplaced or simply not really the point you're trying to get acroos. Seriosly, next time you want to say 'WIFOMic', explain what you find townie/scummy/circular about the subject in question, just as an experiment).

wifomic. i use it as an adjective to describe when someone speculates on why a player is acting a certain way and how it refers to their alignment, or anything parralel. look it up. almost evcerything we argue about in this game is wifom. i keep saying it because people say i'm misusing it. saying "the town is smart and so they wouldn't run off half-cocked and lynch a guy over a crappy post from day 1 that had no substantiating evidence" is wifomic. why? because it is basing a resolution of an as yet undetermined situation on a number of assumptions, one being that town is somehow "inherently intelligent". like i said, "optimism" does not seem like a good thing to base one's strategy off of.

i have not accused anyone of having "brains the size of eggplants", nor did i refer to anyone as "retarded". those two terms were placed into this conversation by plum and nameless respectively. sorry for trying to point out that nameless doesn't have connections, is lying, and is scum.

you say you are so smart, but noone here claims to see the benefit of discussing the doctors(if we have one) role in town strategy. the point is moot. me talking about what the doctor will do is meaningless to both the doctor and mafia. to insinuate that i am somehow hurting town by discussion is entirely scummy.

so far, almost everyone's "alternative" to lynching ip is to string up a lurker. at least atronach is trying. if you want me on the list that's fine, it would just be nice to see someone actually substantiate a case against me:

1) nameless: for the "loner" vibe, strawmanning, for "optimistically" depending on something other than their own wit, muddying the waters with scum team speculation, "if i die tonight" bullshit(see loner vibe), omgus etc.
2) ip for his horrendous post and subsequent meltdown.
3) don_johnson for attempting to discuss and form a cohesive strategy to which town can use ip's day 1 blunder to their advantage, using the word wifom too much, asking people to substantiate claims and present evidence, and actually trying to campaign for someone elses lynch.

how's that for ya?

atronach:

thank you for your observations. i will take a closer look at geraintm. i believe they are v/la over the weekend and will look forward to their response.

plum: if we don't lynch scum today, you don't want to have ip protected so we may benefit from their results? you just want the doctor to decide? even if the doctor is geraintm who(as determining by their "random lynching" comment) may simply apply their power randomly so as to have no effect on town strategy? yes, i am speculating, but you, like juls and nameless, have not explained how this hurts town.

here are two situations(both considering ip to be town aligned):

hypothetical 1: we all agree that doc protects ip. mafia nk's someone else because they know our strategy..

hypothetical 2: we all agree that doctor should decide for themselves. mafia nk's someone else due to the mystery surrounding whether or not the doctor actually did protect ip.

two scenarios. one outcome. town still has ip's results the following day.

and if ip's scum(provided we don't lynch him today)? he's not going to die anyway. we waste doc protection for night 1. ip claims "roleblock" or feeds town terrible results and gets himself lynched.


let me be clear: IF TOWN HAS A DOCTOR THEY SHOULDN'T BE LISTENING TO ME AND ONLY ME! I AM NOT TRYING TO DIRECT YOU. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT.

that said: i will not mention strategy again. i am willing to switch my vote if someone brings a case against a better lynch candidate than my own. i am willing to lynch ip or hop a bandwagon i don't necessarily believe in, ONLY to avoid a no lynch situation. other than that my vote is going to stay where it is. i will be doing a reread of the few others whose names have been suggested for lynch.

[don_johnson]

okay. post 226 is a short explanation of why leading the doctor can be bad, however, you are ignoring the current situation of an uncc'd power role. doc can do as they wish and i will drop the subject. i must point out that noone has even discussed my ideas. i don't get it.

also, i am not understanding juls plan at all. that is why i asked her questions. she said she didn't want anyone to counter ip's investigation. i get that, "if you are a town pr don't reveal yourself". however, then we are left with the quandary of who to lynch. the later idea of ip keeping their results a secret is a good one, however, if they are nk'd night two then we lose results. perhaps we should compromise and ask ip to reveal results in twilight? i really don't know here, what i am hoping is to form a good strategy so that we don't just waste our tracker(if he is who he says he is).

You can prove a loner vibe that equals SK now? (At least, that hilarious and cutting retort still holds if I've actually managed to wrap my mind around that confusing statement right.)

i did not say loner vibe = sk. i said it points to it. in my opinion. also, by the phrases you choose to use i can prove

why

i'm getting a loner vibe. you have yet to

prove

your strawman accusation(see above). part of the reason i keep on you, nameless, is because of statements where you have been putting words in my mouth. to me that is scummy. if you want me to stop responding then i will ask that you stop spinning my arguments.

"veiled threats" refers to the obsession players have with using their vote in a threatening manner. "you better knock it off or i'll vote you." it seems more of a scum tactic. this being a team game, townies are often asked to "take one for the team" because their mislynches will provide valuable information. townies, especially

vanilla townies

, should really not be afraid of peoples votes and should therefore see no benefit to using them in a threatening manner. therefore i generally associate threats being a daylight strong arm tactic used by mafia who seem to have good standing with the town. that's what i mean.

would you find it suspicious if i wrote [nameless and juls are the scummiest two players i see. vote: danchaofan.] ]

Only depending on the context.

well place this in the context it was in in ip's post. complete with numerical scores.

unvote

*tears up fliers, tosses buttons into garbage can*

it is obvious noone sees what i am seeing. my only logical solution is to admit i have had tunnel vision for a few pages, go back and reread a bit.

[don_johnson]

@don: discussion of what the doc should do gives an idea to maf who the doc will protect giving them a better chance have a successful kill. Not good eh? Announcing in twilight doesn't help as mafia still get to make use of the information albeit marginally less time to contemplate the results. Please post a list of people you wouldn't mind seeing lynched.

current top three:

1) nameless
2) Juls
3) ip

i have already explained why ip and nameless fit into my list. juls has been strawmanning all day in regards to my posting. this could be a miscommunication issue, as i am obviously not understanding her "nobody counter ip's findings" bit, however, she has exhibited what i find to be scum tells with both the veiled threat of a vote and her putting words into my mouth. if you need to i can digf up the quotes, but if you read my posts in isolation you can find all my responses to juls. also, both her and nameles have rather stealthily worked me into their top three lynch lists based on facts that really aren't scum tells. i know you disagree with discussing what the doctor should do, and i have since droppped that discussion, but in the context of utilizing our uncc'd tracker i believe it is more than a viable subject for discussion.

i am not going to imply a scum pairing here as i don't think that's the case, but i could easily see one of the two of them as scum buddying up to town. nameless "isolation" wordings in his posts have him as my most likely scum, but alas, there is inevitably some omgus in my findings. i do think that one of the two of them is scum as they have been supporting each other quite a bit and have both exhibited the unconscionable manuvre of putting words into my mouth. nameless accused me of strawmanning because i asked juls questions in order to clarify her position.

other than that, i just seem to rank high on both of their lists for my use of the word wifom, and my persistence in trying to decide on a town strategy to deal with our "tracker", which it seems as though everyone is abandoning at this point. my list is under review, but i am not going to lynch someone for "lurking". not on day 1. it leaves us with nothing to go on.

[don_johnson]

this could be a miscommunication issue, as i am obviously not understanding her "nobody counter ip's findings" bit,

Answered in post #257 and post #263. But I guess I will answer it again...That is based on

if we used my plan

. The goal is to keep power roles hidden. The hypothetical where IP says:"DJ targetted Plum last night". and to avoid being targetted you say "no wait! I am a watcher!". If you were to do that and we had already agreed to my plan to just ignore IPs claims until he is proven by his death then I would assume you to be scum trying to get out of it.

no. not answered. the above paragraph makes no sense to me. why? if ip targets someone, finds out they went somewhere. we do nothing until ip dies? i don't see how that works to anyones advantage. your plan makes little sense to me. it gives ip and those he targets a free pass until when, exactly? i'm not trying to argue with you on this, i just don't see what you are trying to accomplish with this plan.

-Penguin can only get off the hook if he finds a player who targeted a dead player.
-If that player is lynched and comes up scum, penguin should be lynched unless he finds another player who targeted a dead player.
-This continues until penguin does not find a scum or three scum are dead. At that point, penguin is lynched.
-We guarantee that penguin does not survive until endgame.

OK. So basically we treat him as a one-shot tracker and then if he finds scum he gets another shot. I can go with this. @IP - if you really are the tracker and we go with this strategy please don't lie to stay in the game. Your goal is for town to win, not for you to stay alive.

this is a good idea, however it goes against your plan juls. what if ip tracks a town pr? the only way to know if ip finds scum is to lynch whoever he fingers, right?

she has exhibited what i find to be scum tells with both the veiled threat of a vote and her putting words into my mouth.

The point of the threat was to get you to SHUT UP plain and simple. I was trying to give you every opportunity to realize that what you were doing is anti-town and you should cut it out. The more you kept it up the more you looked scummy...and I can't help but notice you STILL continue to talk about it. Not leading anymore but completely keeping it in the discussion when everyone else is trying to move on from it.

i get the feeling you don't like me or something. i get alot of negative emotion from your posts. discussing strategy is not anti-town. discussing town pr set up's on day 1 is. trying to utilize everything at towns disposal in order to not only confirm a claimed pr but also find scum is not. funny, you have now admitted to threatenging me in order to get your point across. veiled threats are scummy. why do you think i would fear your vote?

]also, both her and nameles have rather stealthily worked me into their top three lynch lists

I can't speak for Nameless but I voted you in post #94, mention suspicions in post #224, and then of course there is #259, #261, and #263. That's not stealthy. You weren't top of my list when I posted my long post but you certainly weren't super townie to me either.

i apologize for lumping you together. i certainly should not. it will give the wrong impression. sorry, but my feelings on how i am climbing the charts still stands.

[don_johnson]

Not game Related: Out of curiousity, why suggest that I "don't like you" when you didn't suggest the same for nameless or megatheory during your arguments with them. Is it because I am female?

could be subconsciously, but i don't believe so. neither of us seems to understand the other and we both feel as though we are using "the plainest of language". when you all caps phrases like "shut up" i take it personally. i am trying to gauge how much of your suspicion of me is based on what i am saying, and how much is based on you not liking how i am saying it. like i said, i have been a victim of tunnel vision with nameless, but it is what he is saying that gets me. how he says it bothers me, but i expect it from scum. the actual words and phrases he has chosen to get his points across are what i am suspicious of. i didn't have you pegged as scum before, but this constant inability to understand each other has to stem from somehwere. if its not that my style bothers you, and its not that we are just misunderstanding each other, then it must mean that you are scum. so i guess the answer is yes. you are female and i do not want you to be scum.

[don_johnson]

I notice Juls gives the same Lynch List as I do, which is either coincidental, or indicitive that we are both awesome scumhunters (probably not the later). Don has us both on his, and doesn't mention this fact (only that he's on both). Juls already responded to this, but it bears repeating ... there has been nothing "stealthy" about my arguments with Don and ongoing suspicion thereof. I'd say he was strawmanning, but Don is throwing that word around almost as much as wifom. Nevertheless, take note that Don ignores the majority of the reasons I'd lynch him (for a summary, please see #246.)

funny. you must not have read my response to your accusations.(see post #256.) i am not just throwing around terms. i have explained why i am using those terms each and every time anyone hasd asked. try again.

Another thing that I find suspicious, is that despite nearing deadline and still listing me as his #1 lynch candidate, Don unvotes me. He says "it is obvious noone sees what i am seeing." even when several posts

have

indicated similar suspicion of me (I've even made Plum's scummy mashup!). He apparently admits tunnel vission, but continues making misleading statements about myself. Basically, without any obvious trigger or change of position, Don has unvoted as we near deadline.

This is a bad thing, and I'd love to hear an explanation for it.

why is this bad? no one seems to agree with me. you mention plum, but they seem disinterested. what's wrong with admitting tunnel vision? i have been focused on you. it occcurs to me that i am not swaying voters. therefore my time is better served trying to do more scumhunting. i can always

vote: nameless

see. its not that hard.

the actual words and phrases [Nameless] has chosen to get his points across are what i am suspicious of.

I've been suspected from semantics, from someone who can't even use the term WIFOM sensibly. Well that's just great. Sigh.

this entire game is wifom. but thats just my opinion.

unvote

okay, jump on me for speculating about a possible sk. i have been in games with them. the flavor fits. but i digress. apparently noone wants me to talk.

[don_johnson]

i am trying to gauge how much of your suspicion of me is based on what i am saying, and how much is based on you not liking how i am saying it.

My suspicions of you are based on:
1) talking about lylo on day 1 and I feel preparing an escape clause for yourself if MT turns out to be town.
2) being distracting. This is the third "fight" that you have started and have difficulty ending. you and MT had the theory discussion, you had your button/flyer campaign for nameless with few real bites, and now with me, you wouldn't end the doctor discussion despite at least 4 people suggesting it is a bad idea.
3) you were leading the doctor despite being asked to stop.
4) you targetting me in an OMGUS kind of way and the other person who finds you suspicious just happens to be on your lynch list. And the third person on your list is IP which at least 3/4 of us find suspicious.

thank you for posting them in such a readble way. if i may respond:

1) i have been in lylo as early as day two in other games. day 3 easily. my lylo comment was meant to help town when deciding who to bring with them. i am not a viable endgame townie. my alignment is in such obvious doubt that i really don't see too many scenarios where it is in towns best interest to keep me alive for endgame. i do not believe that i am a good day1 lynch, but i understand i may be a liability for town come endgame.
2)i am not trying to "fight". i have pointed out things i see as scum tells. i have not shut anyone out, nor ignored any single question posed to me. i may not be the best communicator, but i have been trying. i was accused(by nameless) of strawmanning because i listed a series of questions for jul in order to better understand her plan.
3) i was not leading the doctor, i was attempting to engage town in a discussion to find the best way to utilize our uncc'd tracker. i repeated this many many times. saying that i was leading the doctor

is

strawmanning. also, both plum and nameless keep saying that town is so smart. well if they are so smart then why would you even care if i was leading the doctor? if town is so smart then they would know better. anyhow, the point is moot. i never attempted to lead the doctor, i only sought town's help in developing a strategy to deal with ip.
4) i have been suspicious of ip since his "post". that suspicion has never wavered. i have well documented my case against nameless. i have pointed out extremely specific things he has posted as what i see as scumtells. i have not put words in his mouth(which he has repeatedly done to me), and i have unvoted due to lack of interest in his lynch. now he is suspicious because of that? i am in a no win situation here. juls, you have climbed my list because you are agreeing with nameless and i don't see how anyone protown can agree with his pov regarding my posts.

i feel i have been as helpful as i can possibly be. it is not omgus, i just honestly believe that a bandwagon on me would contain most(if not all) of the scum in this game.

[don_johnson]

this entire game is wifom. but thats just my opinion.

You can take this approach to WIFOM if you feel like, it. It's legit enough, I guess. Just realize that if the whole game is WIFOM, WIFOM becomes an inherently useless accusation. I generally reserve WIFOM accusations for the times someone chooses to use a WIFOM-laden statement as an actual defense ala IP.

i have not been using wifom as an accusation. i have simply pointed out where players are using it and trying to pass it off as fact.

@IP: If we don't hear something from you by tomorrow I am going to start pushing really hard for your lynch. You have been around the site but you are neglecting this game. People are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt despite every scumtell in the book but don't take advantage of us. Post something of substance ASAP.

QFT. this absence is unacceptable.

I'd love to hear about it. Please. Make your case for there being a serial killer.

plum is somewhat correct. talking setup is not going to be helpful, however, my case on nameless is what jumpstarted the speculation. the flavor is what got me thinking on it at the start of the game but i ignored it for a bit. when nameless began "isolating" himself it just kind of grabbed me. it is speculation. i just completed a game where i thought there was an sk and was wrong. turned out to be two families. so guessing at this stage may not be helpful. however, i don't see anything anti-town about simply bringing it up. plum's reaction is a bit harsh.

Stop the whiny-townie attitude here, if you please. I'd like you to talk scum-hunting sense. Not speculate about an SK. That speculation is worthless, distracting, and anti-town Day 1.

not whining. just not going to keep talking to the wall. i've been scumhunting since page 1. nameless is at the top of my list, but noone seems to want to go and reread his and my posts. if you do you will see how he is spinning every argument i make to look scummy. he is not explaining

himself

at all, nor does he respond to my accusations. he just brushes them aside behind a curtain of insulting comments. if you read my replies to his accusations you will see a much more cohesive line of explanations regarding my own actions.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: regarding the sk/nameless case. my suspicions are not solely that nameless is sk. mafia tend to isolate themselves as well. his actions have convinced me that he is anti-town. the rest is my own speculation. please reread my posts. i posted more evidence based suspicions that we are no longer discussing. read where he accuses me of not replying to post 246. then read 256 and tell me what you think.

[don_johnson]

claim then
Jack of All Trades, i can't focus on anything, i like to imagine myself as randy from my name is earl.
one shot tracker
one shot vig

as i said, i had flavour in my role message, hence my liking that post which was askign for flavour from penguin.

glad that got sorted out quick, you can all either decide to lynch me or go looking for someone else to go lynch.

not sure i buy this. are those your only two abilities? do you get to choose which you use at what time?

if what you say is true, i don't remember ip adding flavour to his role. so why do you believe him? i am rereading the last two pages but want this question answered.

to all, vig is a nightkiller. perfect cover for scum

or

sk.

[don_johnson]

just finished reread. all of geraintm's contributions have come at L-2.

yep, planning how to deal with a tracker on day one when you are going to get results from otehr players seemed odd. i knew that i was going to be able to throw in a tracker result too for example, and i strongly suspect there will be mor epro-town info to come after night 1. i considered it a waste of time.

why did you not speak up previously? the discussion of what to do about ip carried on for several pages. why only mention this now?

chaos
don
mega
plum
they seem the worst to me. lynching them different matter, if i thought they needed lynching i woul dbe voting for one of them already

nice way to squeeze me in knowing full well my lynch is a consideration. way to cover your ass when i flip town.

don - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:01 am his post here where he brings up the "more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing"
i never saw this.
up to this point, i found his posts to be pretty wishy washy, full of quantity but very little quality.

i don't find his posts helpful in trying to find scum at all. too often responding to others comments, pressuring them to talk more or him directly asking questions, the whole doc thing, just a waste of time...same with any mention of SK

why are you saying this NOW? the discussions had been going on for most of day 1 and you choose NOW to point out how you feel about these subjects...

atronach has presented the weakest case so far. ger summed it up here:

so far, from what i can see, you have me as scum for not spotting a smiley, for suggesting a random lynch, for forcing penguin to fully claim and for not taking my vote off. that right?

yet he is absent from your scum list?

penguin wanted to, but wasn't allowed to.

yes, vig could be a good cover for a SK or scum, but i wasn't going to claim and not include it.

penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker"

and

a "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?

also, i find it interesting that you don't think i have been scum hunting. you could say i have been extraordinarily poorly scum hunting, but to say i haven't been scumhunting to me is extemely suspicious. i have over fifty posts in this game, and though some contain arguments with other players, they are mostly arguments over who i believe to be scum. i have repeatedly pointed out why i think players are scummy. i have backed up every reason i have used with evidence. you can call my evidence weak, but to say it is non existant is a complete misrepresentation of how i have been playing. i believe at this point that you are scum. you were cornered. though your claim doesn't seem desperate, you have pushed the town in my direction with your subtley placed criticism of my play which you have backed up with absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE.

i will withold my vote so as not to get you hammered prematurely, but unless you can explain why you posted the things about me that you already have, and why ip and atronach are absent from your scumlist, then i will support your lynch.

do not try to spin a new case on me. please back up what you have accused me of.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: i have rethought some things and alot will depend on how you respond. however, vig may be an entirely provable claim due to flavor in this game. i.e. if town directs ger's one-shot kill i would think it would not turn up as "beheaded". just a thought. what are others ideas?

P.S. anyone who tries to spin this as me directing the vig is scum. i am opening an avenue for discussion. not telling anyone what to do. directing any town pr is something town should do as a whole with an agreed upon strategy.

ger: i would like you to respond to my reqeust for evidence. if you have made an error i would like you to explain yourself.

seeing as how my current list is unacceptable to most townies and that deadline is approaching i will turn my attention to Atronach. their most recent attack doesn't sit well at the moment, however, i may simply be skewed by ger's response. i will post my assessment later today. until then:

ger please respond.

others: address how we can confirm geraintm. simply letting anyone who claims a power role off the hook on day one with no strategy to confirm any of them is poor play.

[don_johnson]

on the subject of confirming ger...That would be quite hard. He has that one shot tracker ability, and we can put him on the same plan we have for penguin. I just find it weird to have a JOAT with a tracking ability and a tracker also...

he also claimed one shot vig. i agree, though, why two trackers(one being a JOAT)? which is why i would like them both to post a paraphrase of their pms(mod approved of course).

[don_johnson]

Why would we have two trackers?

It's possible, I suppose, though the likelyhood . . . meh.

Unvote

for now. DonJ is, of course, my second choice, so my vote's going there for now.

Vote: don_johnson

chaos
don
mega
plum
they seem the worst to me. lynching them different matter, if i thought they needed lynching i woul dbe voting for one of them already

You responded with this when asked to name your top suspects. You're not voting anyone. Can you explain this here?

thank you for your input on my suggestion that both claimed pr's "paraphrase" their pm's. if town directs the vig kill, the flavor of said kill may vindicate geraintm. you people realize that i would not be repeating myself so often if people took what i'm saying seriously and responded to it?

it is possible we have two trackers, but why a tracker and a JOAT with tracker as an ability? i think one of these two is lying.

meta question: also, is anyone familiar with the JOAT role? does it normally only have two abilities? the name suggests to me that their should be more than two options...

[don_johnson]

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with

several night abilities

, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.

[don_johnson]

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

pay attention much? Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig). come on man, we're close to deadline, the least you can do is RTFT.

[don_johnson]

Don thinks Atronach's case is weak, echoes Gera's (incomplete) rebutal, yet considers scum BUT withholds vote. (

This close to deadline?

) Don also accuses someone ELSE of "squeezing him in" their lynch list.

yet another example of classic strawman. don_johnson NEVER stated that Atronach was scum.

seeing as how my current list is unacceptable to most townies and that deadline is approaching i will turn my attention to Atronach. their most recent attack doesn't sit well at the moment, however, i may simply be skewed by ger's response. i will post my assessment later today.

i am simply trying to help town and avoid a no lynch. i have been accused of spending too much time focusing in one area, now that i offer to focus elsewhere, nameless gets back to his old tricks. for the record: i reread Atronach's posts in isolation and found no reason to vote them. geraintm is not the best at explaining himself, and atronach's interpretations, though flawed, are not scummy.

vote:nameless

this is now my official deadline vote.

Note that Megatheory attempts to handwave the different cases against three players under the same category of "bad D1 play". This is stupid because bad play is an incredibly general term that pretty much every scummy action falls under, and because Mega tries to use this as a reason to attack several players for, god forbid, pushing a single player for lynching. Mega then states that one of Don or I must be scum (BAD, townies get into arguments too, you know). Mega also obviously defends Gera.

HoS: Megatheory

and this man needs to be examined closely D2.

mega's last few posts have been nothing but town to me. their reasoning is solid, and being the first to suggest the self vig gives them townie brownies from me. it only makes sense to look through peoples posts and distinguish "bad play" from scum tells(see strawman above).

Oh, and after a quick reread and since it was so wildly popular last time, Gera - Mega - Bovine connections

NOTED WELL.

holy distraction batman! save it for twilight if you are the lynch. why do you continue to muddy the waters?

Argh, unsure whether / where to move vote for the greatest chance of scum or a useless townie or ANYONE being lynched today. >_<

*digs into garbage can, pulls out flier with picture of nameless swinging from a tree.* here ya go!

I can't help but notice DCF suggested the idea but has not yet himself listed lynch preferences.

dan is not paying attention. ADHD is not a scumtell.

[don_johnson]

on the subject of confirming ger...That would be quite hard. He has that one shot tracker ability, and we can put him on the same plan we have for penguin. I just find it weird to have a JOAT with a tracking ability and a tracker also...

this is what nameless has levied suspicion against cb for. this does not look like cb giving ger an "easy way out" as nameless puts it. it looks to me like a suggestion from someone who is clearly unsure of how to deal with the situation. i quote this only to show that nameless is not just targeting me with his misrepresentations.

[don_johnson]

I don't think DonJ is too likely to be a townie, but am far from convinced that I'm infallible. It's my best effort at this point, my vote on DonJ, and I think it's good. But you have not made a convincing case that it must be the case that one of Nameless and DonJ

must

be scum. It's plausible, but by no means the only plausible explanation for these events.

what exactly are your issues with me? please provide evidence of why you think i am scummy. are you deliberately ignoring my posts? nameless last post misrepped both cb and myself. why is noone calling him on this? he has been doing it all game.

[don_johnson]

geraintm: post 375 is unacceptable and insulting. i have typed out over 60 posts that span nearly three pages of this thread. that acounts for just under 20 % of the material in this game. you have reduced my contribution to 61 incomplete sentences with no regard for the actual substance of my posts. i require an apology. you said you were bad at scumhunting. this is proof. i will not respond.

as to self viging: noone is saying that it is what should be done. but it is a viable pro town option. how it works with a "one shot" vig could be difficult, but typically if a vig's alignment is in question and the situation arises where a mislynch can cost town the game, it is a good strategy for a player to self vig, thereby confirming their alignment to town and not causing a mislynch. players are only confirmed by their deaths. for us to confirm ip to be town we will either have to mislynch or count on mafia killing him. you have the option of suicide. that is all.

[don_johnson]

#359. I've already clarified Don's misinterpretation of strawmanning. Don is obviously defending Mega in this post rather than let Mega answer for himself, but doesn't actually correct my suspicions or do much else than accuse me of strawmanning, again. (First it was wifomic, I take it this is Don's new pet word to throw around.)

Asking a townie to self vig is not, under any circumstances, a good idea.

It loses the town a member for exactly no benefit, and Don giving Mega "townie brownies" for this (what I had assumed not to be serious) seems either a mindless agreement, or WORSE if Don had actually thought about it first.

As for "muddying the waters", my "wildly popular" remark might have tipped you off that the comment was at least partially sarcastic.

Otherwise, apply my entire previous explanation.

first: the funniest thing about this is that you refer to geraintm as a "townie". no one here is a confirmed townie. saying this is a scumtell. the reason behind self viging, which by the way is an approved protown strategy, is to confirm someones alignment without a mislynch. you apparently already know geraintm's alignment. how could that be?

second: you had been told before that your scum buddy assertions and connections were not pro town. we are no longer in the rvs. why on earth do you think it acceptable to joke about such matters at this point, so close to deadline?

(The only real concern here is the

previous

times Megatheory has defended or assumed to be town Gera, even from joke comments. Even when Mega claims to suspect Gera, he includes clarifiers such as just the latest post, or that it's too early to make real judgements. Next thing you know he's claiming to have known Gera was a bad lynch, defends Gera's posts, believes his roleclaim without any explanation why or as to how it supposedly fits his playstyle, and generalises other players actions to cover up Gera's lack of contribution. Given possible motives and gut on Mega's playstyle,

I would say this is more indicitive of Mega's alignment than Gera's. YMMV regardless, Mega has gone much further for Gera than a townie would have reason to.)

if gera is a townie, like you stated above, shouldn't mega be going out of his way to defend him? you are contradicting yourself here. in your fist attack in this post you have gera as confirmed townie and suggest that anyone suggesting a self vig on a townie is "not a good idea under any circumstances." now, for purposes of painting mega scummy, gera's alignment is in question. interesting.

(#360. Megatheory says I can't argue Gera's actions are suspicious compared to bad play, but Mega has at no point argued why Gera's actions are bad play rather than suspicious, making this a nulltell at best and hypocritical at worst. (See also my reply in #366.) Mega accuses me of not addressing his arguments and just heaping suspicion on him, but even after quoting my points does not respond to them. Also hypocritical. Mega then states either Don or I must be scum. These kind of absolutes are bad for the town in any case, but he specifically points out I would need evidence to argue against this, after proving none himself. Again, hypocritical.

intersting. i read post 360 and will quote it in entirety:

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

I do NOT want to lynch ger. If you would pay attention, you would notice most of my last post is devoted to arguing

against

his lynch.

don or Nameless should be lynched today.

Note that Megatheory attempts to handwave the different cases against three players under the same category of "bad D1 play". This is stupid because bad play is an incredibly general term that pretty much every scummy action falls under, and because Mega tries to use this as a reason to attack several players for, god forbid, pushing a single player for lynching. Mega then states that one of Don or I must be scum (BAD, townies get into arguments too, you know). Mega also obviously defends Gera.

HoS: Megatheory

and this man needs to be examined closely D2.

I noticed you can't argue that ger's actions are truly suspicious as opposed to bad play. The difference is huge because town and scum are equally likely to play badly. Your vote is still on him. Do you really want to lynch someone when you can't argue that they are suspicious? Maybe you can, but instead of addressing my arguments and understand what I'm saying, you're taking the opportunity to shovel dirt on me while masking the core issues I've brought up.

I defended ger because I believe his role claim. His play backs it up. Why bother arguing that it doesn't when you can just heap suspicion on me?

You and don have had much more than a simple argument. don thinks you are scum, and went so far as to campaign for your lynch. Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario

with evidence

, then the best play is to lynch one of you.

I'm still rereading, but I already know what we should do.

Vote Nameless

nowhere in post 360 does megatheory say :

Mega then states either Don or I must be scum.

NOWHERE.

#368. IP joins my bandwagon with no further explanation than I'm "starting to read scummy". Right. IP's claimed previous suspicions of me make for light reading: There was one FoS soley for not giving specific examples of flaws in his Question Time Analysis. I did then give examples, and recieved no response to them. Some time later he gives a few reasons in #228, none elaborated, which in my next post I answered as much as I could without particular examples to refute. Later, IP agrees with Don's "vibes" argument, but gives no explanation or examples. Basically, IP has made no case to answer.

true. this will not bode well for ip in the future so consider this noted.

#369. canadianbovine Joins The Brawl! The only reasons he gives for voting me are that I do not provide quotes for my arguments. In first case (my FoS regarding his suggestion to confirm Gera), it was obvious which post I was referring to, and Bovine quotes it himself in his defence. (As for the confirmation itself: Scum might be able to fake a vig kill, but since that would give control of scum NK to the town, it's a good thing. Relying on tracking is bad for all the reasons noone could actually agree on a plan for IP.) In the second case, it was regarding my noting connections. I've elaborated somewhat on that earlier in this post now that I'm apparently a lynch candidate but the reasons I didn't quote everything then are the same that I didn't quote everything last time I mentioned possible connections. (See: #203) Note also that (lampshade hanging aside) the way I posted connections then was no different to what I did the first time, but the first time Bovine made no comment other than he didn't quite understand it. As a whole, bovine is similar to IP in giving very little explanation for voting me.

it was already well publicized that scum pairing speculation without reasoning was anti town. so he called you out on it when you did it AGAIN. also, fellow players, please look back at the thread. the matter of bovines suggestion of confirming ger with his tracker ability was just that: a suggestion. it is pro town to make suggestions. read cb's post, there is no malicious intent.

#370, and Megatheory is back for another attempt. (I'm going to need to paragraph this ...)

Suspicion number one, I used rhetorical questions. About the only reason I had for using them was that I felt like using that particular arguing method at the time, but the fact Mega is arguing against a method still clearly conveying my point amounts to meaningless semantics.

this is your opinion. you did not prove your point. you are not proving it now.

Number two, I accused Mega of considering voting/lynching part of discussion. Mega even admits that I answered this, but to repeat it again: it is entirely possible to discus something, even strongly scumhunt, without voting.

but you are suspicious of me for not voting geraintm? interesting.

The reason I found Mega's statement suspicious was that by implying voting of one party was inevitable from discussion, Mega was implicitly discouraging generating discussion. (Yes, this was a weak suspicion, but it was very early in the game.) Mega even directly responded with a clarification of his intent in #63. This isn't an unanswered question, this was a concluded exchange in the early game that Mega only brings up now in an attempt to justify his vote.

are you sure your post numbers are right? that's not what 63 says.

Three, I distorted Don's case against Mega. I didn't actually comment on any point in the case TO distort, to start with.

My only comments were that I believed Don's case to be exaggerated given it came from a discussion on game theory (I stand by that), and that it's bad to state one of two players must be scum

(I admit I misread Don's post at the time, and kind of quietly moved on when I was corrected). Note also that Mega says Don had good points against Mega, which makes you wonder why Mega then

never responded to it himself

rather than expecting me to have done so at the time.

Four, I implied there are probably scum on IP's wagon but was dubious of Mega when he agreed with me.

This is a gimme; I said there were

probably

scum on the wagon, whereas Mega said there

were

scum on the wagon, and in case it wasn't obvious already, using absolutes is suspicious.

(This wasn't a case of mistaken semantics either, Mega's followup to Don indicated he did mean it.)

good points. the first one was never said.

it's bad to state one of two players must be scum

you strawmanned it out of mega's posts. if it is somewhere it is not in the posts you are referring to so i suggest you go and find it. second bold remark: absolutes like the one you used to start this post?

Five, I accuse Don of jumping on the IP wagon when Don was the first to vote IP after the Question Time Analysis. There still was a small bandwagon on IP at the time though, so the statement is literally justified if a poor choice of words, but my accusation wasn't THAT Don joined the wagon, it was WHY Don joined the wagon that I disagreed with (Mega just didn't bold that part). And this was among a list of other suspicions. Oh, and Mega blatantly argues semantics by suspecting me for the word "disagree" rather than summarising with a harsher word. I'm sorry, I'll swear next time. (Mega also says I'm using a "distancing tactic", but since he doesn't explain this I can't defend against it.)

Okay, I'm done, enjoy the wall of text.

i am happy to take responsibility for pushing ip hard. i found his post extremely scummy and am not going to revisit it. reread the thread. i explained myself in full. others agreed. what made me stand out?

[don_johnson]

Don,
i wrote this about you

don - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:01 am his post here where he brings up the "more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing"
i never saw this.
up to this point, i found his posts to be pretty wishy washy, full of quantity but very little quality. i don't find his posts helpful in trying to find scum at all. too often responding to others comments, pressuring them to talk more or him directly asking questions, the whole doc thing, just a waste of time...same with any mention of SK

you objected to this, you asked for evidence of why i thought this about you and why i thought you were a bad scum hunter.
i then went through all your posts and gave brief summaries of them (the 61 incomplete sentences, which they were, but it was easier writing "nothing of substance" rather then "Whilst rereading this old post of Don's, i did not find much of it of importance." you said i made no regard for the actual substance of your posts, what did you want me to do, quote every single one of your posts and then write under it, i didn't find anything interesting here, nothing that significantly advanced the towns cause? i read them all, i read the substance of all your posts).
i wasn't going to do detailed, too much there, too little time.
this long list was not scum hunting, it was my attempt to show why i thought your posts were often wishy-washy and that you wasted too much time talking about topics i felt were not really relevant.

you use the word wishy washy. please prove this. you are making statements without evidence. no you do not have to quote my entire posts. but wishy washy should be easy to show. that's what i am asking of you. evidence. i can easily discount your play as unintelligent. but i don't.

but, i stand by what i wrote about your posts. i feel that many of them were not helpful in finding scum, many of them are you asking other players to respond to your points and i don't find that style of play a good one. i feel that style of play allows a player to appear in the game but actually is forcing other players to talk a lot and give others more words to twist if needed. seriously, there is no apology coming from me for my post, i feel it was what was asked for when you asked for evidence of your posts being wishy-washy and focussed on poor topics. i am sorry you are so offended by my post, but i have no regret at all with what i wrote.

again. prove this statement. also, how is passionately pushing two wagons on day 1 wishy washy? i've changed my mind on a couple of things, but i have always laid out clear reasons. if you think i'm scum, vig me. don't lead town to a mislynch. nameless is obvious scum.

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

pay attention much? Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig). come on man, we're close to deadline, the least you can do is RTFT.

as to self viging: noone is saying that it is what should be done. but it is a viable pro town option. how it works with a "one shot" vig could be difficult, but typically if a vig's alignment is in question and the situation arises where a mislynch can cost town the game, it is a good strategy for a player to self vig, thereby confirming their alignment to town and not causing a mislynch. players are only confirmed by their deaths. for us to confirm ip to be town we will either have to mislynch or count on mafia killing him. you have the option of suicide. that is all.

sorry. one person was saying that is what should be done. it was you, and you follow up when you said no one said that should be done by then saying you think it is a good idea.

Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig). [/quote]

really? i said "it should be done"? looks to me like i said

Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig).

this was in response to someone else not paying attention. even taken out of context it is not saying "it should be done". it is saying that another player has offered a viable solution. do you know what viable means? it certainly doesn't mean written in stone?

off topic(but not really): is english a second language for you?

with 12 players, i cannot see it being good thinking at all to kill myself when the info which it would confirm - one track - isn't worth the loss to the town of a townie

there are situations where it can be beneficial. not to you, but to town. seriously, i am not trying to trick you. it is an approved pro town strategy in certain circumstances. i would not expect nor ask you to self vig night 1. also, i did point out the issue of you being a "one shot" vig. a regular vig can use their ability to try and tag a few scum before they self vig. with you, it proves more difficult, but if it came down to it late game a self vig may prove more useful to town than having you around to possibly mislynch. your claim clears you for day 1, but later on your alignment may fall under serious scrutiny.

[don_johnson]

scanning simply because I have to go sleep now, but... a vig isn't town?

"Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon."-MT 360


writing shameless doesn't exactly get you townie points either. I haven't read up that much on nameless but I'm not liking don enough to

unvote, vote: don

no. a claimed vig is not a "confirmed" town. nameless paints gera's alignment as definitely town in order to make one point, and then paints gera's alignment as if its in question in the very next paragraph in order to smear mega.

please, i don't care if you like me, but your sabotaging town if you don't pay attention. your reason as a vote is probably the absolute worst that i have heard. read and then vote, not the other way around.

plum:

plum, plum, plum.

nowhere in post 360 does megatheory say :

Mega then states either Don or I must be scum.

NOWHERE.

Megatheory, post #360 wrote:
Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you.

He made it quite clear that he did not believe an 'alternative scenario' to one of you being town is possible. Is that a mismanaged Chainsaw Defense or do I have my terms wrong here?

you are putting words in his mouth.


considering i wrote this:

plum: if we don't lynch scum today, you don't want to have ip protected so we may benefit from their results? you just want the doctor to decide? even if the doctor is geraintm who(as determining by their "random lynching" comment) may simply apply their power randomly so as to have no effect on town strategy? yes, i am speculating, but you, like juls and nameless, have not explained how this hurts town.

and you say i wrote this:

You keep saying 'no, I'm not dircting the hypothetical Doc; heaven forbid!' At the same time you say 'The Doc should strongly take into account my strategy here'.

then yes. you are absolutely one hundred percent wrong. you are skewing my statements just like you are now skewing his. nowhere did i say that the doc should strongly take my advice. NO FUCKING WHERE. your persistent misrepresentation of my words has been noted. i suggest you and others put their personal feelings aside and reread this thread. sorry im' an a$$hole, but that doesn't make me scum, and no matter how players like yourself and nameless try to spin my words, you can't remove my original statements from the thread. your interpretation of my words is simply untrue. now you are doing it to mega.

He made it quite clear that he did not believe an 'alternative scenario' to one of you being town is possible.

may be what you interpreted from what he said, but it is not what he actually said.

He made it quite clear that he did not believe an 'alternative scenario' to one of you being town is possible.

does not equal

Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you.

it simply doesn't. he is willing to hear evidence but is voting what he believes. the only answer i can see as to why you would continue to skew peoples thoughts and posts is if you are scum as well. it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

if you are town, start reading what people are writing and stoptrying to make up what you think they are saying in your own head and then spouting it as fact.

Why don't we lynch CO?

let the mod nightkill him. if he's town then we're wasting a lynch.

[don_johnson]

i require an apology.

No, you don't. Questioning you and your actions in this game is kind of the point of this game. Nowhere in his posts do I see him saying anything rude or offensive to you.

don't tell me what i need. i have contributed alot to this game and find his summary insulting. he presented no evidence, just his opinions.

you said you were bad at scumhunting. this is proof. i will not respond.

It's not proof, because we don't know that you're town. And oh how I wish it was true that you would not respond. You actually have some worthwhile points in those posts- I do think that Gera using his tracking skill first and vigging himself is a workable option, though I'm not sure I'm advocating such a strategy. But that type of useful discussion is buried under mounds of insults and game derailing theatrics (and for the record: I think if you have to resort to childish namechanging tactics in your arguments, then your arguments cant have been very strong to begin with).

Your argument that Nameless saying "Asking a townie to self vig is not, under any circumstances, a good idea" is a scumtell is flat out wrong. Hes speaking of a hypothetical situation, for one. For two, in that hypothetical situation if someone CAN 'self vig' then it stands to reason that they ARE a vigilante. Thus, town.

@Juls- I already said who I'd be willing to vote for. I'm not sure I'm as suspicious of Don so much as exasperated by him- I'm not going to vote him just for that. I'm reading and will vote before deadline.

the bolded statement is not true. when asking someone to self vig you have no way of knowing whether or not they can. so their alignment is in question. they are not town until their dead body shows up with a mod tag next to it revealing their role. that's my point. the other point i made is that nameless did a complete 180 when trying to smear mega in the next paragraph. nameless was also not talking in a hypothetical situation. a hypothetical has details. he gave none, just made the statement that asking a "townie to self vig is anti town". the point is entirely stupid. why would you ask a "townie" to self vig? you wouldn't. you would ask someone whose alignment is in question. which brings me to the point of why does nameless say that ger is town? ger is unconfirmed.

a slip like that IS a common scumtell. sorry i tried to be funny with the name changing, but nameless' scumminess is so freaking apparent to me at this point. if he flips town i would be utterly shocked and apalled. i believe the only reason there is a debate on this matter is due to scum pushing hard in nameless' defense.

what have i done taht makes you think i'm scum? a major difference between my posts and nameless' is that my posts actually contain quotes to back up what i am saying. if you read his case against me, it is solely his opinion and his twisting of existing posts. he has a hard time finding any actual evidence to back up his claims. come on, man. disliking me or my playstyle should not affect your vote. look at the evidence.

[don_johnson]

geraintm, if you are town i would like to make a point for your consideration. i would prefer not to do a pbpa of your post about my contirbutions, but if you would like me to i will. in lieu of that i would like to discuss this:

post 57 - utterly bizarre post, seriously one of the biggest reaches i have seen in any game of mafia to attach suspicion to someone.

here is post 57:

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with several night abilities, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.

nowhere in this post does it say, "gera is lying, this is meant to attach suspicion." my post, by its nature, does attach a certain amount of suspicion, but it should be acceptable suspicion. why? because scum can fakeclaim. scum will often fakeclaim as a last resort to avoid lynching, therefore, town pr claims need to be discussed for validity. my ebwpop was meant to do nothing other than quote directly from a reputable source exactly what JOAT is listed as. my post was not intended to accuse you, badger you, or anything of the like. it was an informational post meant to encourage discussion about your claim. do you suggest that when someone claims a power role, that we should just accept it without question? i think you could agree that that makes no sense. here's the thing.

i believe you at this point. but my ebwop is not "reaching". though i will accept your interpretation as one of several valid intepretations, it was not what was meant at all. for instance, why do you think i wanted ip to explain his role?

if he was scum and his claim was fake, he might post something that could incriminate him. by using wiki as a resource, we can go about deciding on whether or not to believe certain claims.

post 57 was an ebwop to inform town as to what they are dealing with. if you had an issue with it, all you have to say is that your role did not specify more than two abilities. that is perfectly reasonable, but to condemn me fo trying to help town figure out whether or not to believe you is not pro town.

if you notice, post 57 does not include the phrase "geraintm must be lying," or "this is what wiki says, and should cast suspicion on ger's claim." post 57 is simple and straightforward. i have noticed this discrepancy with some of your other interpretations and can point some out if you wish. i am asking you to please read my posts for what they are and try to remove your personal feelings. yes, i implied with other posts that you may be lying. but what alternative do i have? should i not be skeptical? should i just accept everything people tell me as truth. that would make me a terrible player.

[don_johnson]

nameless: you post is rather incoherent. again you fail to provide evidence. just opinions.

It is my opinion that I felt like using rhetorical questions? WTF Don actually mean here.

you say you proved your point with rhetorical questions. you did not prove anything. thats WTF i mean there.

- All the other scummy things you did made you stand out. Obv.

it may be obvious to you, but if i am scum you need to make a case. what is scummy about my play? provide examples.

Heh, you know you arguments are bad when even Danchaofan, half asleep, can point out flaws.

i responded to dan.

I like how Don, in #397, tries to defend and distract the town from Mega's obvious implications by bringing up an older, unrelated issue (directing the doc). Have I mentioned the obvious Don -> Mega connection yet? Yes? Good.

connection? yes, we both think you're scum. i am not trying to distratc town. the issues are related. here is mega's post:

Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you.

i will break this down mathematically. mega is saying this

player a is either scum who saw a case not working, or a town who caught scum but became discouraged.

everyone seems to be turning this into an equation:

if player a is scum then player b is town. if player b is scum then player a is town.

this is not logical. there is no statement of player b in mega's speculation. you have to realize that in the case in which i might be scum, the case i dropped is because it is not working. not because player b is town. player b could still hold an anti town role that is not necessarily aligned with mine. mega's speculation is about me, not nameless. he suggests we lynch one of us because of this scenario

and

because he believes nameless to be scum. does that help?

the connection of the two quotes which nameless accuses me of using to distract town is that they are both examples of misrepresentation of what someone is saying. but i digress. perhaps an explanation from mega is in order.

don't tell me what i need.

No tells to mention in this sentence, I just can't help but imagine Don saying this all dramatically.

prime example of how posts can be misconstrued. you imagine me saying this dramatically. i wrote it matter of factly. a good reason why people should stop trying to read with their emotions. not saying i'm not guilty of it too, but it is unhelpful to town.

also, for further clarification on the "directing the doctor" case against me:

let me be clear: IF TOWN HAS A DOCTOR THEY SHOULDN'T BE LISTENING TO ME AND ONLY ME! I AM NOT TRYING TO DIRECT YOU. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT.

this is the only thing i said that was directly addressed to the doctor(if we even have one). THE ONLY THING. everything else was said in the spirit of discussing how to deal with our outed power roles.

discussion=protown

"but don, discussion can be a distraction."
of course it can, but when you get to points later in the game you can go back and see where it was a distraction and where it was not. so:

discussion=protown

because the only traceable evidence we have to track down scum are vote counts, death scenes, and the posts in this thread.

------------------------------

@juls: i am taking both claims with a grain of salt. time will tell and with the fact that both players seem to be playing rather poorly(in my opinion) i don't think it will be hard to uncover any lies should they be scum, but i see no reason to risk a power role mislynch on day 1. nameless has already claimed a non power role. as for me:

claim: vanilla

i have hinted at this quite a bit through our discussions. if you look through my posts in isolation you will see that when i have discussed other roles i have used regular text or quotation marks. every time i wrote the words

vanilla townie

i used italicized text. i was trying to subtly let you know who i was. i know it doesn't prove anything, but i feel it lends to the fact that my claim is not a "last minute decision".

in my estimation, town has two good options for lynch. i believe nameless to be scum, but if he flips town we will have a nice bandwagon to investigate. same goes for me. given the consistency in my play, i don't honestly believe that i can at this point be lynched without a significant number of anti-town roles on the wagon. so i agree with nameless that people need to start voting. (for nameless )

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote donjohnson

If it has to be one of you, fine.

uber lame.

seriously, though, why me over nameless?

[don_johnson]

If everyone voting for Nameless or don were to leave their votes on them as it is now, it is impossible to lynch Nameless unless chaosomega comes back. However, don could still be lynched if geraintm and Atronach put their votes on him.

It is now approximately 27.5 hours until deadline.

I'm just saying.

nice attempt at using "fear of no lynch" tactics.

if geraintm and atronach put their votes on nameless he has promised to self hammer. whether or not he does would be quite a telling scenario. so, vote your conscience. a "no lynch" uncovering one scum is better than lynching a townie. probably one of the only scenarios i can think of this early in the game where a no lynch would actually be helpful.

i'm just saying.

[don_johnson]

I would prefer a lynch over a no lynch, even if it is Nameless. We need to know some stuff in order to have a direction D2. If you turn up as town I will take a very thorough look at the others on your wagon.

i agree. not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer.

if he doesn't then he is scum.

that is pretty good information going into day 2, and town will only lose townies to nightkills instead of having an extra mislynch.

so in a way it makes sense to place nameless at L-1 and request the self hammer. i am not saying i want a no lynch, but it seems with nameless' suggestion and us being so close to deadline, we should consider it as a viable strategy if the sittuation arises.

the obvious other side of this argument is if you are convinced that i am scum. but i really don't see how you could be. i think my explanations have been pretty thorough and i have been making an effort to remove my emotion from my work. in any case. food for thought.

[don_johnson]

I'm pretty sure my vote's going right back onto don tomorrow.

great. you mean the vote you never backed up and threw on at the last minute? awesome.

i am not going to apologize for leading the wagon. had nameless claimed his role i would have never pushed it to the end. but that is useless now.

a mislynch is not terrible. if town has vig's, please be careful. if we see two nk's, a misfired vig shot could put town in a lynch scum or lose position tomorrow. if people want to be mad at me and not move their vote tomorrow that's fine. i will have to assume you are scum. look at the wagons, not just the drivers. scum throw votes on with little to no reasoning more often than not, and if your were paying attention to the last few pages you should have picked up on some of those.

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you."

i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

i have explained this once and everyone else seemed to get it, so herein twilight, i will explain it again for the slow kid in the back:

i will break this down mathematically. mega is saying this

player a is either scum who saw a case not working, or a town who caught scum but became discouraged.

everyone seems to be turning this into an equation: Quote:
if player a is scum then player b is town. if player b is scum then player a is town.


this is not logical. there is no statement of player b in mega's speculation. you have to realize that in the case in which i might be scum, the case i dropped is because it is not working. not because player b is town. player b could still hold an anti town role that is not necessarily aligned with mine. mega's speculation is about me, not nameless. he suggests we lynch one of us because of this scenario and because he believes nameless to be scum. does that help?

i will apologize for being an a$$hole.

to all: sleep well. hope to see you tomorrow. nameless, if you flip town, this was nothing personal, i believed you were scum.

[don_johnson]

that's a well informed vote, right?

i am alive because:

a) i am scum

or

b) my alignment is questionable enough for me to be the next viable mislynch.

FACTS:

nameless lynched himself. don_johnson has all of one vote, it took seven to lynch. not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1. no wonder he got lynched. that said:

knowing that if nameless didn't self hammer, he would be outing himself as scum, why on earth did juls change her vote? it was seriously argued that mega's misinterpreted argument of "if one of nameless or dj is town, the other must be scum", was a horrible theory, and yet now, because nameless flipped town, juls is voting for me before any other information is revealed. kind of feels like she is setting us up.

porkens vote was heinous. insidious. blatant bandwagoning for a lynch. not particularly any different than his playstyle for the entire day, but pretty blatantly anti-town.

so what? i am scummy because i directed the doctor? because the main argument in my defense was that i felt it prudent to discuss the doctor's actions in case town wasn't as smart as they could be. the rebuttal to that argument was that i should stop assuming that town was not smart. well, if town is smart, then what's the harm in me directing the doctor, who should be smart enough to know that they don't need to listen to me?

analyze the wagons people. find some scum.

my list:

juls, porkens, danchaofan

@ geraintm: why did you not vig me? it would have saved us a hell of a lot of trouble.

i would like there to be discussion. if we decide to string me up, so be it. if we have a vig, i am a much better nightkill.

[don_johnson]

it was seriously argued that mega's misinterpreted argument of "if one of nameless or dj is town, the other must be scum", was a horrible theory, and yet now, because nameless flipped town, juls is voting for me before any other information is revealed.

kind of feels like she is setting us up.

Here's some classic WIFOM for you: If she were going to "set us up," couldn't she be a

little

more subtle about it?

good point, but you see, this is my opinion. we are all entitled to one.

porkens vote was heinous. insidious. blatant bandwagoning for a lynch. not particularly any different than his playstyle for the entire day, but pretty blatantly anti-town.

OMGUS, or what? The going theory, at the time, was that one of you needed to be lynched. I would have rathered it was you, plain and simple.

you have never explained why. that is not plain and simple. like i said, you explained nothing yesterday. to explain myself, until your last vote you were in my "neutral" category with dan and chaos. this unexplained vote moved you to anti town. not because you voted me, but because you voted without explanation.

i would like there to be discussion. if we decide to string me up, so be it. if we have a vig, i am a much better nightkill.

I really don't care for this line. You've just told us how you shouldn't be lynched, you have one (count 'em ONE) vote on you, and you're already bargaining for a night kill instead.

i don't look at it as "bargaining". i am just trying to help town. lynching me would put us at even steven tomorrow from the looks of it(assuming three anti town roles.) all i'm saying is that town

allegedly has a vig

. from the flavor and number of the kills per night we should reasonably believe that we can clear him. sure there is wifom, mafia could send in a no kill, but at least i would be cleared without a mislynch.

porkens: do you have any other suggestions for a lynch? or would you rather force through the day, like juls, without discussion, investigation results, etc.?

i am a dead man walking. that much is clear. you guys just need to make the right choices to win this game. if anything, my day 1 play should be a complete null tell, so lynching me will prove nothing.

[don_johnson]

No, MTs statement breaks down into a) a is town, b is scum b) a is scum, b is town. With no other possibilities, unless "you" can find sufficient evidence that there is another case.

you are completely wrong here. mt never states why player "drops" the case. mt never states that b must be scum. you are wrong. i am not going to argue with you.

Your quote conveniently misses the "Either" which MT originally had. Otherwise, I would probably agree that your interpretation might be valid.

i do not miss the either. either i am scum and dropped a case that wasn't working(no mention of why). or i am town who has caught scum. mt's theory is that i am either scum or town. it does not directly translate into nameless' alignment.

Why is Don still calling NL to be anti-town, c'mon the mod 1) ffs already told us he was a nurse, and 2) self-hammering is bad in the whole entire "we're having a discussion we don't have a deadline." Given how close we were to deadline a self-hammer to ensure no no-lynch is perfectly viable imo. (that said, I still think he should have let antr or gera to put votes in)

there was no need to self hammer. we were over thirteen hours from deadline.

also, had he claimed nurse, don't you think one of the players on my wagon would have switched?

don't be a dumbass. i am saying his actions were "anti town" because they were. that's why he was lynched. he acted anti-town all day. he got himself lynched.

call the bolded statement above wifom all you like, it is still an extremely valid point.

ip: why did you target megatheory?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: the bolded statement should read: don't you think one of the players on his wagon would have swicthed?

[don_johnson]

just noticing this, but from my point of view, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon. i am wondering if mine and nameless' argument could have caused a complete self destruction?

i would love to hear what geraintm has to say. until then:

vote: danchaofan

if the rest of the wagon was town, it is reasonable for juls to be just what she claims: confused town. porkens, though frustrating, is at least consistent. their vote on me could simply have been "hey i like nameless better." dan wasn't even paying attention to what was going on yesterday. and today he is arguing logic with me. also, i believe his whole "why is don still calling nameless anti-town" to be strawman. focusing on something that isn't terribly relevant to the issue at hand. if ip is telling the truth that means that not only did nameless lynch himself, but he did it with a lot of town help. can anyone honestly deny that nameless' self hammer was in any way protown? he may have thought it was, but it very plainly wasn't. to argue this makes no sense to me.

that said, i will try and take a backseat today. i am obviously not the best leader. i agree with atronach. discussion can only help.

[don_johnson]

just noticing this, but from my point of view, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon.

Folks, this is the misinformation that makes don_johnson scummy.

Megatheory is NOT confirmed just because IP says he didn't go anywhere.

It only means that if megatheory is mafia he did not send in the kill. The tracker role ONLY tells you who was targetted and not what action they did. It does NOT tell you his guilt or innocence. Furthermore, NOTHING has been said or done to confirm don_johnson. Please lynch don or Megatheory...I am willing to vote for either.

i am mistaken. ip does not confirm mega. mega's posts seemed very town to me on day 1, but i could be skewed because we shared the point of view that nameless was scummy. i am not trying to spread misinformation. i would appreciate it if we could converse a little less argumentatively here on day 2. i am trying to help. my statement was pure speculation. juls, you are now calling for a lynch of on of two people. what was so scummy about mega from day 1?

perhaps you should reiterate your cases in a form which others can actually read and respond to.

also, talk about "misinformation": you lopped off the part of this quote that was the actual conclusion from this train of thought. you skewered my post and have spun it so it looks "scummy". my point with this post is that nameless' bandwagon may have been

entirely

town driven. given his anti town behavior it is entirely plausible. if i get you correct you are saying that you are town. you were on the wagon. in fact, you arguably were one of the

scummiest

voters on the wagon. perhaps you should wait for geraintm's results before you start calling for a day 2 lynch. vote all you want, but if you're going to quote my posts and call for a lynch, don't just chop out the parts that fit your case.

[don_johnson]

Answering Don's Question:

you have never explained why. that is not plain and simple. like i said, you explained nothing yesterday. to explain myself, until your last vote you were in my "neutral" category with dan and chaos. this unexplained vote moved you to anti town. not because you voted me, but because you voted without explanation.

Remember that the person

I

wanted to lynch was Ger, but Nameless demanded that I vote for one of the two of you. I found that demand to be a fairly townie (maybe not pro-town) thing to do, so I figured if one of you were actually scum, it was probably you, not Nameless. So you were, at the time, simply scummy by comparison.

fair enough. thank you.

Continued Suspicion of Don:

i don't look at it as "bargaining". i am just trying to help town. lynching me would put us at even steven tomorrow from the looks of it(assuming three anti town roles.) all i'm saying is that town allegedly has a vig.

from the flavor and number of the kills per night we should reasonably believe that we can clear him.

sure there is wifom, mafia could send in a no kill, but at least i would be cleared without a mislynch.

The point isn't to clear you, though! At that point, we would want to clear Ger. And if you are town, why do you want to waste our 1 vig shot to prove it?!

no, the point was not to clear me. the point is to clear both of us without a mislynch.

i am a dead man walking. that much is clear. you guys just need to make the right choices to win this game. if anything, my day 1 play should be a complete null tell, so lynching me will prove nothing.

Appeal to emotion.

maybe, but upon further review and given what little i know of our mod, i doubt he would give town a situation that would be unwinnable with mislynches on both day 1 and day 2, so i'm not sure it is going to be all that detrimental to lynch me. i would rather hit scum today, though, and i'm not sure how much information my lynch would provide. i will leave that up to the rest of you. i am not trying to appeal to emotion as much as i am to common sense. if i am scum, i am brazen.

just noticing this,

but from my point of view

, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon. i am wondering if mine and nameless' argument could have caused a complete self destruction?

That's an interesting observation but you know you aren't confirmed to the rest of us.

yes, i know, this poat was from my point of view. sorry, i am trying to be as clear as possible.


i have no comment on your connections, i have had atronach in my town column for a while, mainly because of his level headed ness. dan just seems to be stuck in second gear and i have previously stated how i feel.

juls is slowly earning my vote. but like i said, i am not driving today.

[don_johnson]

No, MTs statement breaks down into a) a is town, b is scum b) a is scum, b is town. With no other possibilities, unless "you" can find sufficient evidence that there is another case.

you are completely wrong here. mt never states why player "drops" the case. mt never states that b must be scum. you are wrong. i am not going to argue with you.

Your quote conveniently misses the "Either" which MT originally had. Otherwise, I would probably agree that your interpretation might be valid.

i do not miss the either. either i am scum and dropped a case that wasn't working(no mention of why). or i am town who has caught scum. mt's theory is that i am either scum or town. it does not directly translate into nameless' alignment.

Ok, so based on the wording of the first statement, it allows for 3) a is scum, b is scum. But, the implication of MT's statement still is if either flips town, the other is scum. Which is convenient for mafia if both nl and don were bickering townies.

no it doesn't. you are not getting it. i spent four years in college as an english major. what you believe MT implied and what he actually wrote are two different things. i see what you are getting at, though, with MT trying to clear himself. perhaps you can find better evidence to support the theory.

if the rest of the wagon was town, it is reasonable for juls to be just what she claims: confused town. porkens, though frustrating, is at least consistent. their vote on me could simply have been "hey i like nameless better." dan wasn't even paying attention to what was going on yesterday. and today he is arguing logic with me. also, i believe his whole "why is don still calling nameless anti-town" to be strawman. focusing on something that isn't terribly relevant to the issue at hand. if ip is telling the truth that means that not only did nameless lynch himself, but he did it with a lot of town help. can anyone honestly deny that nameless' self hammer was in any way protown? he may have thought it was, but it very plainly wasn't. to argue this makes no sense to me.

Are you still seriously saying I wasn't paying attention yesterday? One post was made while I was half asleep in the morning and your using it to generalize my entire play?

sorry. not trying to generalize your entire play, but you voted near deadline while admitting not having fully read the thread. plus, your inability to comprehend my math(see above) is agitating to say the least. i had you as a null tell all day, but your end of day posting moved you onto my scum list.

I'm arguing logic with you because my main candidate for scum is MT. So how the logic of his statement works out when my interpretation of it is very convenient for a scum is quite relevant to the day's discussion.

yes, all i am saying is that your interpretation is more your opinion and less based in fact. if you want to make a case against MT i am fine with it, but it needs to be coherent.

And you going on about how "scummy" a dead townie is 1) distracting 2) convenient for a scum who is going about how "good" a wagon is. I think I echo Juls sentiments in saying that I'll be okay with either IP or MT, I think I'll have a tendency towards MT once I finish my re-read.

i have not referred to our nurse as "scummy" since he flipped town. i said "his actions were anti-town". and they were. you cannot seriously argue that lynching oneself instead of claiming a "gamebreaking" role is protown. it is not.

Suggestion about trackers: perhaps, if our tracker tracks someone who went out and they did not target a dead person, we have the tracker lie and said that they did not go out at night? Assuming mafia have a role-blocker or something, then us assuming someone that went out a night and did not kill is a town could prove fatal, meanwhile the knowledge that someone did go out and is not part of the mafia makes our power roles vulnerable to attack, pegs some people as vanilla and the mafia will still have an easy time at picking power roles. If we ever decide to string up one of our trackers I think we should then ask because if there is a possible mass confirmation of townies than we can possibly more easily avoid mis-lynches...

not sure i follow you here. as far as avoiding mislynches, if we proceed at the current rate of two nk's per night, we cannot afford too many more. in fact, as i mentioned before, i don't think our mod practices the art of bastardry, but numbers will dwindle, and unless there is a cross kill then town is going to run out of townies quicker than you might think. if you are for a IP or MT lynch i suggest you make a solid case.

number of killings suggests two "anti-town" factions. the beheading has raised the idea of an sk. we talked about it yesterday and people were skeptical about it then. i doubt there is one "anti-town" faction committing two nk's, but i guess it is possible. from a numbers standpoint i am thinking scum pair and sk which makes a "cross-kill" less likely. but i've been wrong before.

[don_johnson]

That's a horrible breadcrumb, bro :p

QFT

your blunder may help your innocence to others. however:


neither one of our power roles was roleblocked or targeted by scum. it is speculation on my part that there would even be a roleblocker in this game, but i would guess with at least two investigative roles that scum would need to have something to balance out the power. especially since we had a nurse(which would imply a doctor).

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

do we want ger to explain why he chose not to vig? he kind of already has, however, it seems as though he is not worried about getting nk'd. i would think most players would vig over track. but i could be wrong. what do others think?

unvote

dan's response was to my vote was town. i am moving him back to the null tell category.

We don't know shit about what he did or didn't do.

FOS: Atronach, Geraintm

poor choice of words? assuming ger didn't use his vig attempt is one thing. posting as though you know what ger is going to say incriminates the both of you. reeks of night talk strategy.

[don_johnson]

What are you talking about? Juls and I were having a conversation, that went like this:

Juls: I'm not sure theres an SK
Atronach: Why not?
Juls: Because Gera might have used his vig power last night. I dont want to speculate until I know what he did.
Atronach: I follow,

but are you going to take his word for it

that he used his vig power?

In this conversation, Juls was already taking it for granted that Gera was telling the truth about his role. I was pointing out that we dont have any reason to believe Gera, as he's unconfirmed.

bold is different than:

I understand what you are saying,

but are we just taking his word

that he didn't use his vig attempt?

just pointing it out. your choice of words is suspicious.

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

with all the power implied by the town pr claims i would imagine mafia to have a roleblocker or hitman. both of which could have targeted our outed "vig". why was he left alone?

also, i know he says he wanted to be honest, but why admit to being a "one shot vig" in the first place? it sets up the scenario for the explanation of a nk later in the game. this is a huge liability for town.

honestly, i don't believe him at all.

vote: geraintm

unless someone can come up with a way to clear this man, he needs to be lynched. sorry, but i've changed my mind. i would be happy to drive another wagon.

[don_johnson]

So you're vote basically because he didn't vig anyone?

no. my vote because:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

with all the power implied by the town pr claims i would imagine mafia to have a roleblocker or hitman. both of which could have targeted our outed "vig". why was he left alone?

also, i know he says he wanted to be honest, but why admit to being a "one shot vig" in the first place? it sets up the scenario for the explanation of a nk later in the game. this is a huge liability for town.

honestly, i don't believe him at all.

this is why. if you want to break it down and ignore the other reasons that's fine. its not like my one vote is going to lynch him. i want others input. if what i am saying makes no sense i am happy to listen to why. the ONLY reason i had ger in my town column was due to their claim. to me, the claim just doesn't add up and his dismissal of me posting a wiki entry is puzzling. all he had to do was look up the definition of "several" in the dictionary or something to that effect. the wiki is the closest thing to a game guide this forum has to offer and it(to me) is perfectly reasonable to reference it in arguments.

just for shits and giggles:

sev⋅er⋅al   /ˈsɛvərəl, ˈsɛvrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sev-er-uhl, sev-ruhl] Show IPA Pronunciation

–

adjective 1. being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind: several ways of doing it.

2. respective; individual: They went their several ways.
3. separate; different: several occasions.
4. single; particular.
5. Law. binding two or more persons who may be sued separately on a common obligation.
–noun 6. several persons or things; a few; some.

from dictionary.com

but is suppose the DICTIONARY isn't a relilable source of evidence either. [/sarcasm]

i gave him the benefit of the doubt yesterday. not today.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: i realize there are more definintions of several than the one i bolded. but it is just as silly to dismiss the one i bolded as it is to dismiss the other 5. i don't believe it "anti town" for me to interpret the wiki the way i am. i could be wrong, yes, but is the sum of all these parts that lead me to my vote, not just one item standing alone.

[don_johnson]

Why would he say he was a tracker in the first place and then switch it to watcher and then tell us that no one visited penguin, of all people?

if i knew the answers i would tell you.

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point:

by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

also the wifomic nature of your question helps to clear him. my bottom line: are you going to clear him for playing dumb? i have won as scum by playing dumb. its one of the easiest ways to skate through to endgame.

also, now he has used his one ability, that only leaves his vig shot, which he can easily explain away later on, unless the flavor behind his kills is different than

player x: shot

. which is why we need to find a way to confirm him, or lynch him. he has already discounted the self-vig. which, by the way, is somewhat anti-town. sorry, but i don't trust night killers, especially one playing as bad as this.

[don_johnson]

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point: by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

However, it doesn't jive with the implications you drew earlier about Ger and IP:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

i don't see what you mean. i wasn't implying that they were working together, if that's what you are getting at. if there is some glaring problem you will have to point it out.

[don_johnson]

nameless lynched himself. don_johnson has all of one vote, it took seven to lynch. not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1. no wonder he got lynched.

Um, you jumped all over him when he implied that he wouldn't self vote like he promised he would. Besides, why are you heaping dirt on a dead townie?

sorry, not trying to heap dirt on the poor bastard. i don't remember "jumping all over him". i think that might have been you.

knowing that if nameless didn't self hammer, he would be outing himself as scum, why on earth did juls change her vote?

This is something you and I believed, but I don't remember Juls expressing this opinion. You are putting our words in her mouth.

nosirree bob. i had this conversation with juls. she may not have felt the same way, but i explained this line of reasoning directly to her.

@ geraintm: why did you not vig me? it would have saved us a hell of a lot of trouble.

WTF? How can you expect ger to vig you when you posted this in twilight:

a mislynch is not terrible. if town has vig's, please be careful. if we see two nk's, a misfired vig shot could put town in a lynch scum or lose position tomorrow. if people want to be mad at me and not move their vote tomorrow that's fine. i will have to assume you are scum. look at the wagons, not just the drivers. scum throw votes on with little to no reasoning more often than not, and if your were paying attention to the last few pages you should have picked up on some of those.

come one, now. people railed against me all day for trying to "direct" the doc. ger was one of those who didn't approve. i posted full well knowing noone would be listening. i actually thought my post might antagonize someone. my honest hope was that i would be vig'd. in fact, i had canadianbovine pegged as a vig. not sure if anyone noticed his question about the possibility of two vig's. i am still amazed that neither one of our claimed power roles were targeted by anyone.

Hmm... I don't like this line of reasoning. If you don't want to be lynched, asking to be vig killed instead doesn't help the town if we are in LYLO like it appears we are. It's also weird to suggest that you should be vigged and also suggest that your day one play is a nulltell.

i stand by the statement that my day 1 play is a null tell, in that it is perfectly reasonable for two townies to have a disagreement which spirals into a lynch. i didn't employ "scummy" tactics in my argument with nameless(other than the "shameless" which i did to be funny). all of my evidence was real. his play was anti-town. you voted for him too. i only suggest vigging me to avoid a mislynch. i think you may be right about lylo, however, a cross kill can keep us in the running. i find it odd that ger didn't use his vig attempt. it would have been a good town play to vig me before the day's start. are you going to argue with me on that?

just noticing this,

but from my point of view

, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon. i am wondering if mine and nameless' argument could have caused a complete self destruction?

What? Both of us were on the wagon and we're anything but confirmed, obviously.

i am confirmed to me. you are not as i state next:

i am mistaken. ip does not confirm mega. mega's posts seemed very town to me on day 1, but i could be skewed because we shared the point of view that nameless was scummy. i am not trying to spread misinformation. i would appreciate it if we could converse a little less argumentatively here on day 2. i am trying to help. my statement was pure speculation. juls, you are now calling for a lynch of on of two people. what was so scummy about mega from day 1?

You only thought I was town for about 10% of the day. The rest of the time, you accused me of committing a mountain of scumtells. You only decided that I was town when I helped you get what you wanted (a Namless lynch). So what makes you so sure that I'm town?

nothing really. it is not odd in the least for someones suspicions to shift during the course of this game. sometimes players can have revelations about other players and shift their opinions quickly. it wasn't the fact that you jumped the wagfon with me that made me think you're town, it was your reasoning behind it. the fact that you were home last night helps a bit. though i wonder why you were clubbed...

also the wifomic nature of your question helps to clear him. my bottom line: are you going to clear him for playing dumb? i have won as scum by playing dumb. its one of the easiest ways to skate through to endgame.

I get your point, but which is more likely: ger is playing dumb, or he really made a mistake regarding his role? In my experience, townies do make these kinds of mistakes. Do you have any reason to believe that he is playing dumb outside of this one mistake?

his play is terrible. i outlined the few other reasons i have. his post that significantly reduces my contribution to day 1 to "nothing of substance" and "more wasting time on the doc" just doesn't sit right. you can write it off as my ego, but i am tempted to do a pbpa of that post and point out everything he decided to glaze over. also, his denial of evidence is scummy. refute evidence. don't deny that it is applicable when it clearly is. a definition

straight from the mafiawiki

is not something that should be dismissed with a simple wave of the hand. has anyone in this game been in a game with a JOAT? if so, how many abilities did they have?

Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean here by:

his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

If you don't mean they could be scumbuddies, what did you mean?

ger conveniently clears himself and the other tracker. however, later in the game he could easily make the case that he only knew IP was out. this still leaves IP in the hotseat for a mislynch. yeah, i'm reaching a bit, but its plausible. making others look town can easily help any one of us look more town. like i said, i'd like others input. noone seems to be sure of anything. i guess i am just believing IP's "dumb" act more than ger's, and due to the fact that neither one of them was targeted in any way makes me think at least one is lying.

i am also not sure what to think of mega's "clubbing"? it may be an attempt to smear IP. IP admitted to going to mega's house. why would he admit that if there was some sort of foul play? also, what kind of role goes around clubbing people anyhow?

TO ALL: if we are in a possible lylo, how do we feel about a mass claim? if we choose to do it, how would we go about doing it?

[don_johnson]

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

how is asking players what they think "pushing"? you seem to enjoy spinning what i say to seem scummy. i am asking a question. i would prefer an answer to a ridiculous question. we are not technically in lylo, but we do seem to be in a lynch scum or hope for a cross kill and lose scenario. i honestly think we need more info on the table. you and IP claimed and were not targeted by scum. so what's the harm? my fos is warranted. i explained why you were included. can't tell if you are playing dumb with me or not.

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

unsure how your suspicion of me could get any higher really?
the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.

you were. mega pointed out that several could mean just "more than one." my dictionary entry shows that not to likely be the case, but whatever. it only the dictionary.

my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

noone is saying you said it "cleared" anyone. i am glad you are trying to be truthful.

why would i have vigged you?

to make this day easier.

i wasn't sure who was scum day one, and the odds of shooting scum get better once night one is out of the way after mafia kill some townies. my odds now are 1/x-2, not 1/x
i would also have a better idea of guessing who i think the bad guys are too leaving it an extra day.

you had no guarantee of survival. you should have used the ability which better benefited town. maybe you think you didn. i think you didn't. if you are not lynched, you run a serious risk of nightkill. self vigging or vigging me would not be a good option unless we lynch scum today.

why mention the vig role, well i have always been taught to be truthful as town, don't lie. if i hadn't mentioned the vig and then later killed someone, how would i have explained that?

i'm sure you could have thought about something.

[don_johnson]

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

how is asking players what they think "pushing"? you seem to enjoy spinning what i say to seem scummy. i am asking a question.

so you are saying you were merely asking the question, your answer to that question would be no, you didn't want mega to claim but you thought it best to bring up something you didn't want to happen because getting everyone else to waste their time answering yes or no to a question you think is no? is that right? is that what you are saying?

no, that is not what i am saying. i am asking you this:

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

and you are COMPLETELY avoiding answering the question. instead you are trying to cast suspicion on me by somehow guessing my answer. i want to know how town feels about this. i want input, just like yesterday when i asked for input on how we go about confirming players like yourself who have claimed power roles. i am asking for input and you are slinging mud. for the record: I SUPPORT A MASS CLAIM AT THIS STAGE. yes it endangers our power roles, but we need to lynch scum today to have any chance at winning this game(barring a fortuitious cross kill, if that's even possible.) ger, if you are town you should start cooperating by answering questions.

the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.

you were. mega pointed out that several could mean just "more than one." my dictionary entry shows that not to likely be the case, but whatever. it only the dictionary.

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with

several night abilities

, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.

Please don't split hairs. Several can mean any number.

really? you say saying mega was saying you were splitting hairs wasn't someone else besides me who called you on that? you are either the most finickity player i have ever seen, or you are really really trying to make me look bad

finicky? maybe? but i do like my ducks in a row. i don't look at mega's post as "calling me" on anything. he offered his opinion which was: several can mean any number. in the definition provided by wiki, "several" seems to me to be used as an adjective describing the word "abilities". that points to definition number one which means "more than two". is the wiki wrong? maybe, but it is certainly admissible as evidence when trying to determine actual claims from fakeclaims. i am not trying to make you look bad. you are doing that on your own by avoiding any responsibility for your actions and your lack of ability to answer questions without offhanded comments attacking my character.

my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

noone is saying

you said it "cleared" anyone

. i am glad you are trying to be truthful.

seriously? i actually quote the line of text where

you

said i cleared myself and penguin and you then now say no one said it cleared anyone?

yeah... and. I SAID YOUR RESULTS CONVENIENTLY CLEAR YOU AND IP. I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID IT, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING ME OF.

sorry the rest of you,

i can't work out what else to do with him

if you can't find scum its because you are. try pointing the finger at someone else besides the guy you don't like. your vote is omgus. also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

[don_johnson]

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

Having him choose his own target completely defeats the purpose of having town direct the kill.

What I'd like from you, Don, at this point is clarification. Is gera still your vote for the day or do you want him to use his power? And if so, what target are you nominating?

unfortunately, i don't think choosing his target is a good idea yet. if i had to choose now, i'd say me or himself. right now, i'd rather lynch him. until he starts contributing to the scum hunt and stops avoiding logical protown discussion i see no reason to believe his claim. also, mega's predicament implies the existence of a mafia roleblocker which could block ger, or serve as a convenient excuse for ger if he is lying.

honestly, the only down side to a mass claim that i see is that we out our doctor(if we have one). however, doc can still protect tonight, so if by mass claiming we can identify at least one scum, i think it would be a good trade at this point.

to say ger is my vote for the day would not be prudent. ger can still change my mind. others offering input can still sway my decision. but like i said: i don't believe him at this point. he is voting for me. from my point of view he has a much higher chance of flipping scum than myself, and his play has done nothing to prove that he is town(to me), yet.

i would like people to discuss the pros and cons of a mass claim.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: atronach, when i stated that ger should vig me in my last post, it was meant in direct response to his "i don't know what to do with him," comment. i may have just been being a smart ass. not sure if you took what i said out of context or not, but just thought i'd clarify.

[don_johnson]

deadline is thursday. i hate to beat the drum here, but i think a mass claim would help us figure out whose lying.

[don_johnson]

And just one more comment before I drudge through all this....

93 posts don? really?!?! Thats almost 1/5 of the total posts (including the mod!)

thank you. i like to contribute. look at that: 94!!

[don_johnson]

don_johnson
=============================
Scummy Thing #1:
=============================
We all recall the unbearable theory discussion between Megatheory and don_johnson. But for the large portion of the conversation, neither voted the other. I thought maybe they just disagreed on the merits of self voting or the argument was staged by both of them. But on re-read, I noticed after Plum made her post (the first big shift from the theory discussion) that don felt inclined to vote Megatheory. I think don's motivation in that argument was to make Megatheory out to be scum. If you read the conversation, don prods MT a lot trying to get him to react. Strong reactions tend toward scum. On top of that, his vote would have been second on the list so he wouldn't be accused of starting the wagon and he also saw it as an opportunity to buddy Plum (since she voted for MT). I think this statement proves that he had these ideas in mind at the very least subconsciously:

if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched.

honestly. no response to this. it is opinion.

=============================
Scummy Thing #2:
=============================

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

I mentioned this at the time and it still bothers me. I think he knows MT to be town and put this as a back-up plan. He would know that MT would flip town and therefore, in his mind, this statement would clear him as town.

Further, if HE flipped scum, it would put enough doubt in our heads that if MT made it to lylo we would lynch him

.

this makes no sense. i said not to let either of us get to lylo if one of us flipped scum to prevent such a scenario as the one you describe. what is scummy about trying to prevent that situation?

=============================
Scummy Thing #3:
=============================
Leading the doctor. I will let his quotes speak for themselves:

and you did let my quotes speak for themselves. they are all even toned, well presented ideas. not once do i directly address the doc, nor do i imply that the doc should take any action i am suggesting without town's approval. by the time i got to the end of these quotes i really don't see how you could think i'm scum. but whatever...

=============================
Scummy Thing #4:
=============================
Doubting both claimed town power roles. Granted IP is fishier than tuna but he also doubts geraintm in post #52. I am leaning toward believing both of them at this point given that we have all but confirmed either two mafia families or a mafia family and a serial killer. Obviously town would have to have some power roles to counter that. Nameless was a Nurse but that is the only town power role that has flipped. So if we have 3 anti-town roles left it would be logical to think that town would at least have 2, possibly 3 more power roles. But back to don. His excuse for not believing geraintm is weak. His claim that JoaT would have more than 2 based on the word "several" is beyond weak. He further tries to push this argument in post 56, post 57, and he revisits this argument in D2.

you are completely misunderstanding my suspicion of geraintim. it is not based on the mafiawiki definition(though the definition doesn't help him). my suspicion is based on his response to my presenting evidence for town to examine in determining whether to believe his claim or not. you don't seem to like evidence either...

And a quote for emphasis...he wanted flavor to determine the EXACT details of the information. This benefits scum more than town:

penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker" and a "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?

this is arguable. first, i never said EXACT details. i said paraphrase. yes, it could benefit scum, but if it helps us decide who is telling the truth then it would benefit town. i also support a mass claim. so that's just my opinion vs. your opinion. why is it so scummy to suggest things for town to decide on for themselves?

=============================
Scummy Thing #5
=============================
I don't like that MT suggested a self vig from geraintm but I think that this is obviously an opportunity for scum to agree.

mega's last few posts have been nothing but town to me. their reasoning is solid, and being the first to suggest the self vig gives them townie brownies from me.

Of course he wants geraintm to self vig! That's one less townie he has to pick off.

(Dont do it geraintm!).

This is not something I see as particularly scummy but annoying is that he admonishes geraintm for not night viging him after that. Oh really? geraintm? The one you don't think is a JoaT.

see the bolded part of "scummy thing # 5?

that's juls "directing" the "vig".

the only person who can make ger self vig is ger. why are you so worried about me?

=============================
Scummy Thing #6
=============================
On day 1 he says...

if geraintm and atronach put their votes on nameless

he has promised to self hammer. whether or not he does would be quite a telling scenario.

so, vote your conscience. a "no lynch" uncovering one scum is better than lynching a townie.

i agree. not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer. if he doesn't then he is scum.

On day 2 he says...

not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1.

So basically nameless was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

not at all. i was under the impression that he had claimed vanilla. had he claimed nurse i would have been lynched in a heartbeat. there would have been no need for him to self hammer. and even if noone switched at deadline, you would have seen don_johnson do everything he could(including self hammer) to prevent a town disaster. wifom, i know, but you are making a case on a GRAND ASSUMPTION that i would not have relented had nameless claimed the role he actually had. my worst case scenario when lynching him was that i was accidentally lynching another vanilla townie. i had no idea he was nurse and he self hammered thirteen hours(or so) before deadline AND THEN CLAIMED. sorry. not my fault.

=============================
Scummy Thing #7
=============================
Please read post #72. In it he restates the points that just because nameless is town doesn't automagically make him scum. The fact that he brings this up in twighlight (and with everything else he has done) makes me see that he is thinking up defenses at all times. Scum tend to think up defenses before they are attacked, not townies.

maybe you should read your own twilight posts. nameless actually said the same thing i did in twilight. is he scum?

=============================
Scummy Thing #8
=============================
Requesting a mass claim when we are no where near ready for that. If we lynch scum today we are still in the game. We are not truly in lylo until D3 in my opinion especially with a vig kill.

how is "requesting a mass claim" scummy? can i force you to do it? it seems as though there is quite a bit of flavor in this game, even though it is a mini-normal, and i honestly think by forcing scum to lie we may be able to catch one. how is that scummy? it is an opinion and it makes sense. do you agree? no. do you have to agree? no. do you have to do what i say? no.

Now, I have made my case against don and my vote will stay on him. We ARE two days from deadline so please vote as soon as possible in case last minute craziness occurs. Further, I want to note that don has already claimed vanilla so if he claims anything else he should be lynched on grounds of lieing alone.

yes. don claimed vanilla. don breadcrumbed vanilla. if you can't see that don is vanilla by now then you

should

lynch him.

Some of you have expressed suspicions of me moving my vote. I am sorry but 13 hours before deadline putting someone at L-1 is not too early IMO. I did not hammer. I wasn't sure if I would have access that day as I have 3 classes and work ( I can't access Mafiascum at work). It turns out I did have access that day but it is never guaranteed. I made a bad decision, I wish I had went with my gut. If you read my posts in isolation you will see that I wasn't buying the nameless wagon. I felt though that if we learned nameless's alignment it would give us some insight into D2.

wow, i love that quote. here's another one i love:

Scum tend to think up defenses before they are attacked, not townies.

my three favorite lynches for day 2:

juls, geraintim, atronach(sorry bro, but two slips does not a townie make.)

[don_johnson]

ebwop: happy birthday mod!

[don_johnson]

I am going to bet on town not being stupid enough to believe your last attempt at discrediting me. Yet another weak (scummy) argument. In the two quotes you "love", the first is me answering to the questions that have been posed to me since my last substantial post and that was why I switched my vote. I was ANSWERING a question, not thinking up defenses before I was attacked. There is a huge difference.

sounded like a pre formed defense to me.

and you did let my quotes speak for themselves. they are all even toned, well presented ideas. not once do i directly address the doc, nor do i imply that the doc should take any action i am suggesting without town's approval. by the time i got to the end of these quotes i really don't see how you could think i'm scum. but whatever...

I believe you said somewhere that you are an English major. I find it hard to believe you don't know the difference between leading and directly addressing. You were "leading" by making suggestions. How can you not see that?

read the quotes without attaching my name to them and then tell me if they are scummy. they are not.

see the bolded part of "scummy thing # 5? that's juls "directing" the "vig". the only person who can make ger self vig is ger. why are you so worried about me?

Are you serious? Why am I worried about you? Because you are doing scummy things! My comments doesn't imply that because you told him to do it he is going to do it. My comments are the fact that you took an idea from MT that could be townie (the jury is still out on that one) and you rode it because it benefits you.

Further, hell yeah I directed ger not to do self-vig. What motivations would I have to do that as scum?

Further, I believe his claim and therefore I don't want him to waste his vig power on trying to prove himself.

He just explained his flavor in his most recent post (or the one before?) and it is reasonable.

a) he could be your scum partner.

b) you could know he is town and be trying to make yourself look more town. come on, juls, you are making this too easy.

second bolded statement: he hasn't vig'd. why are you and he so positive he will get another chance? same question for atronach.

I am going to make a request and a claim here.

I am a vanilla townie

. If you guys don't lynch Don today, please lynch me...because until I get rid of Don, I will not be able to concentrate on anyone else because I believe him to be scum.

vote: Juls

i don't believe you. i will give Geraintim one more night to prove himself and honor your request.

why can't anyone seem to do some scumhunting today? i feel like everyone is saying, "well, let's lynch don, unless he comes up with a better idea." we are twenty four hours from deadline. vanilla townie juls has asked for either a don lynch, or a juls lynch. so i suggest everyone make their choice and we be done with it. i have had juls pegged as a possible partner with geraintim since her vote switch yesterday. seriously, if you believe the load of crap she calls a case, then by all means, lynch me.

atronach: dan and porkens pointed out "slips" earlier. i am not voting you today. i am not going to waste time building a case, but your assumptino of a "scum" roleblocker and your statement which seemed to show precognizance of what geraintim was going to post are the "slips" of which i speak. if you are town i suggest you honor juls' request. this game needs to move forward, and unfortunately, don is locked in another "its either him or me" struggle. if my alignment is in such question, then i should be lynched as i am serving only to confuse town.

sorry, what was the "question" you asked of me?

[don_johnson]

don_johnson wrote:
atronach wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

just pointing it out. your choice of words is suspicious.


I don't understand. What is suspicious about asking if we are just taking his word that he has the powers he has, or will tell the truth about them?

he never gave "his word". your explanation is reasonable, but it is still suspicious.

he hasn't vig'd. why are you and he so positive he will get another chance? same question for atronach.

....Do you mean, because he might get killed by scum tonight? Of course that is a possibility; that is a possibility for all of us. I shouldn't have to put that forth in a statement; that should go without saying. I thought I had made my position pretty clear about gera: we should be lynching him, today, if we think he's scum. If not, we should be proving his role and taking another opportunity to take down scum by directing his kill.

if it goes without saying then : WHY DIDN"T HE VIG? he has not answered that question adequately. he has no guarantee of being able to use that ability. IT IS A POWERFUL ABILITY. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED. VIG'S GIVEN THE CHANCE TO VIG ON NIGHT ZERO WILL OFTEN TAKE THE SHOT. yes his chances of hitting scum go up when he waits, but his chances of surviving should be going down. ESPECIALLY SINCE HE OPENLY CLAIMED THE ABILITY. a mass claim can help clear this all up(i.e. it would help to know MT's claim and also who "clubbed" him). you assumed a mafia roleblocker(second slip), but if a town roleblocker is out there then a massclaim would help clear it up. it is an acceptable tactic in a themed game, and this games flavor seems to lend itself to the strategy.

if you are town i suggest you honor juls' request.

Why? That I believe Juls to be town does not ness. mean that she is right. I've stated as much.[/quote]

NOONE HERE IS SCUMHUNTING. WE ARE 24 HOURS TO DEADLINE. YOUR PERSISTENCE IN AVOIDING THE TASK AT HAND KEEPS YOU ON MY SCUMLIST.

if you think juls and i are both town, then produce some suspects. seriously, i am getting frustrated with this game. at least juls is willing to take a stand. i am not posting anymore until a couple hours before deadline. i will lynch:

juls
geraintim
atronach

in no specific order as i think they are all scum. that's final. see you later.

[don_johnson]

If geraintm did not send in a vig attempt then we can explore the Mafia+SK setup.

.

My response in Post #465:

I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

Pointing out that we cannot just take geraintm on his word that he did not use his vig attempt last night.

he never gave "his word". it shows precognizance. i assumed a mafia roleblocker as well. your statement, however, shows precognizance of what ger would say. how did we know he hand't tried to use it and was going to claim "roleblocked"? your explanation is reasonable. one slip is okay.

two slips does not a townie make.

sorry, but my suspipcion of you stands. if you think dan is twisting this scenario then maybe you should look at him. i am the obvious "to avoid a mislynch" lynch, so i don't see why people are wasting there time trying to build a case which can't be built.

seriously, though, i am becoming frustrated and not having fun. i am not on these forums to add stress to my life. if you want to lynch me, go ahead. i have done nothing to warrant it and the fact that i seem to be everyones best target just goes to show the lack of imagination that pervades through this game.

[don_johnson]

don_johnson: I do not dislike you in any way, shape, form or fashion despite what you may think. I just felt like you were doing scummy things and was calling you on them. This is my first game I have completed so I am still learning a lot and I probably need to fine tune some tells...I will get there with experience.

hey, you figured this mess out. i

was

doing scummy things. its part of my problem. i was introduced to mafia on another site and my first game was a version titled "kickass mafia". it did not involve voting, but instead players could

HIT

other players. there was no unhitting and 3 times the number of players is how many hits it took to lynch. long story short, the game devolved into ass kicking and trash talking amongst friends instead of theory and strategy discussion like happens here. so unfortunately, i have an aggresive style. i am really trying to tone it down.

porkens: your day 1 vote(and play) was freaking hilarious. i was like, "wha!?" why the hell is he voting me?

nameless: i thought you played well, i had to continue drubbing you on day 2 because i felt i needed to do whatever i could to prevent a mislynch. honestly, the only thing that really surprised me was the hammer then claim. i would never have lynched you as nurse.

good game all, dan, that was impressive.

ger: i thought for sure you were going to vig me night 1. why porkens instead?

[don_johnson]

no hard feelings ger. like i said, i am an aggressive player and i know i get under peoples skin sometimes. i was really surprised the scum didn't nk you after claiming vig. after nameless' lynch i felt terrible and was just hoping you'd kill me, lol..