Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Porkens]

*your

[don_johnson]

So you're vote basically because he didn't vig anyone?

no. my vote because:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

with all the power implied by the town pr claims i would imagine mafia to have a roleblocker or hitman. both of which could have targeted our outed "vig". why was he left alone?

also, i know he says he wanted to be honest, but why admit to being a "one shot vig" in the first place? it sets up the scenario for the explanation of a nk later in the game. this is a huge liability for town.

honestly, i don't believe him at all.

this is why. if you want to break it down and ignore the other reasons that's fine. its not like my one vote is going to lynch him. i want others input. if what i am saying makes no sense i am happy to listen to why. the ONLY reason i had ger in my town column was due to their claim. to me, the claim just doesn't add up and his dismissal of me posting a wiki entry is puzzling. all he had to do was look up the definition of "several" in the dictionary or something to that effect. the wiki is the closest thing to a game guide this forum has to offer and it(to me) is perfectly reasonable to reference it in arguments.

just for shits and giggles:

sev⋅er⋅al   /ˈsɛvərəl, ˈsɛvrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sev-er-uhl, sev-ruhl] Show IPA Pronunciation

–

adjective 1. being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind: several ways of doing it.

2. respective; individual: They went their several ways.
3. separate; different: several occasions.
4. single; particular.
5. Law. binding two or more persons who may be sued separately on a common obligation.
–noun 6. several persons or things; a few; some.

from dictionary.com

but is suppose the DICTIONARY isn't a relilable source of evidence either. [/sarcasm]

i gave him the benefit of the doubt yesterday. not today.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: i realize there are more definintions of several than the one i bolded. but it is just as silly to dismiss the one i bolded as it is to dismiss the other 5. i don't believe it "anti town" for me to interpret the wiki the way i am. i could be wrong, yes, but is the sum of all these parts that lead me to my vote, not just one item standing alone.

[Porkens]

Why would he say he was a tracker in the first place and then switch it to watcher and then tell us that no one visited penguin, of all people?

[don_johnson]

Why would he say he was a tracker in the first place and then switch it to watcher and then tell us that no one visited penguin, of all people?

if i knew the answers i would tell you.

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point:

by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

also the wifomic nature of your question helps to clear him. my bottom line: are you going to clear him for playing dumb? i have won as scum by playing dumb. its one of the easiest ways to skate through to endgame.

also, now he has used his one ability, that only leaves his vig shot, which he can easily explain away later on, unless the flavor behind his kills is different than

player x: shot

. which is why we need to find a way to confirm him, or lynch him. he has already discounted the self-vig. which, by the way, is somewhat anti-town. sorry, but i don't trust night killers, especially one playing as bad as this.

[Porkens]

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point: by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

However, it doesn't jive with the implications you drew earlier about Ger and IP:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

[Megatheory]

I was clubbed unconscious last night. I doubt that would have any effect on penguin's power if he really is a tracker.

Also, in case it's not clear, we are in LYLO. We have nine players now. 9 alive - 1 lynch - 2 kills = 6 which is a town loss barring some kind of miracle. This basically makes my plan on dealing with penguin an extraordinarily bad idea.

I'll post more later.

[Porkens]

I was clubbed unconscious last night. I doubt that would have any effect on penguin's power if he really is a tracker.

what

?

Also, in case it's not clear, we are in LYLO. We have nine players now. 9 alive - 1 lynch - 2 kills = 6 which is a town loss barring some kind of miracle. This basically makes my plan on dealing with penguin an extraordinarily bad idea.

What kind of miracle?

[don_johnson]

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point: by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

However, it doesn't jive with the implications you drew earlier about Ger and IP:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

i don't see what you mean. i wasn't implying that they were working together, if that's what you are getting at. if there is some glaring problem you will have to point it out.

[Atronach]

atronach wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

just pointing it out. your choice of words is suspicious.

I don't understand. What is suspicious about asking if we are just taking his word that he has the powers he has, or will tell the truth about them?

I see only two possibilities regarding geraintm at this point. One is that he's lying about his role and everything else- in which case we should lynch him, as there is no pro town reason for him to be doing so. The other is that he's telling the truth about his role and the mistakes he made- in which case we should make the best of a bad situation and decide, as a town, who he should vig.

And you going on about how "scummy" a dead townie is 1) distracting 2) convenient for a scum who is going about how "good" a wagon is. I think I echo Juls sentiments in saying that I'll be okay with either IP or MT, I think I'll have a tendency towards MT once I finish my re-read.

I see you as equally guilty of prolonging this argument, which I do find distracting. I dont see how what Don said was wrong- he said that Nameless did not do all that great a job as town, which is hard to argue with. He isnt saying that somehow magically saying Nameless was actually mafia, and its a bit of a stretch for you to keep perceiving it as such.

Juls is advocating a don or MT lynch, not an IP one. Why would you be for an IP or MT lynch after all you've said about don?

Suggestion about trackers: perhaps, if our tracker tracks someone who went out and they did not target a dead person, we have the tracker lie and said that they did not go out at night?

How would we be able to trust the people we think are trackers? If we could trust one, what is the point of lying now that you've brought it up in game? Anyone they peg as 'did not go out at night' is now vulnerable to scum suspicion that they are power roles.

If we ever decide to string up one of our trackers I think we should then ask because if there is a possible mass confirmation of townies than we can possibly more easily avoid mis-lynches...

Am I right that your idea here is that we let our possible trackers rack up a list of people they tracked without saying results, then have them list the results all at once before we kill them? There are lot of things wrong with this idea. For one, not to keep hammering the point, but we dont know if either of our 'trackers' is real. The longer we leave them around without trying to confirm the more likely that they can- if actually scum- do some real damage. Second, what good is a list kept in secret going to do for the townies on it if in the meantime we or the scum go after them. If they get lynched or nightkilled and only the tracker knew of their innocence, what good was the tracker? Finally and most pertinent, I'm not sure how long any such 'list' could be. Our numbers are rapidly dwindling, and every day that goes by is a chance for the scum to get rid of one of our claimed powerroles. With your plan, odds go up that one of them dies and we never get to see this list.

Also, when did you become so certain that both our role claims were telling the truth? Earlier, you flat out said you didn't believe Gera:

I don't believe Gera. Partially because of the redundancy and partially because 1 tracker result is easy enough to fake and a SK or mafia could easily sacrifice 1 nk. I also don't trust Gera to follow the tracker discussion that he decided was worthless to realize that IP is under serious consideration for lynch even if he just hits one tracker result wrong, and IP isn't a 1-shot tracker.

FOS Danchaofan

[Porkens]

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point: by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

However, it doesn't jive with the implications you drew earlier about Ger and IP:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

i don't see what you mean. i wasn't implying that they were working together, if that's what you are getting at. if there is some glaring problem you will have to point it out.

Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean here by:

his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

If you don't mean they could be scumbuddies, what did you mean?

[Megatheory]

You're right that a townie can campaign against another townie, but there are different levels of certainty regarding one's target.I know when I get to a high level of certainty I have caught scum. Don is projecting a level of certainty that is so high, he is probably right.

Since it's been brought up, my belief that don or Nameless should be lynched doesn't come from a belief that one of them absolutely has to be scum. Initially, I only believed that lynching one of them would have a good chance of hitting scum and provide a lot of information on the other.

The last statement you made about this does not synch up with what you've been saying all along. Even earlier in the same post. You say that if one flips town, the other doesn't 'absolutely' have to be scum, but that's not consistent with what you're saying at other times. Your earlier statement sets up Don for a high fall if he's been wrong about Nameless all along and you have, meanwhile, distanced yourself from the blame

No. Abolustely not. I will

never

distance myself from lynching Namless or don if he is lynched today. I accept full responsibility for the consequences of my actions.

Also, it's pretty ridiculous to suggest I'm doing something to distance myself from blame when I've put all of my effort into creating this situation. If I am scum, I did a very poor job of executing any kind of plan that accompolishes what you are suggesting.

No way to lynch either now unless someone switches their vote. I (and the town)need more information for day 2 so I am going to switch. Note: I don't think Nameless is more scummy but if he flips town and I live through the night my vote will stay on don, no exceptions.

Unvote. Vote Nameless (L-1)

Why did you switch your vote at this time? It seems really early, suspiciously early even, especially when ger had not voted yet.

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either

he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working,

or

he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you." i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

You keep harping on the specific wording of this one point, but you aren't looking at the whole situation. I posted that don or Namless should be lynched, then Namless comes along and heaps dirt on me but doesn't address the reasoning in what I posted. At that time, I thought it was highly likely that he was scum, and when he posted what he did, I thought he was just ensuring his survival and limiting his liability by protecting don. I posted reasons to believe that lynching one of them was the best play, and Namless suggested that it was equally likely that they were both townies but he didn't provide any reasoning behind it other than that it was a possibility. So, thinkin that he was scum, I insisted that he provide some kind of evidence that the two of them were townies.

nameless lynched himself. don_johnson has all of one vote, it took seven to lynch. not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1. no wonder he got lynched.

Um, you jumped all over him when he implied that he wouldn't self vote like he promised he would. Besides, why are you heaping dirt on a dead townie?

knowing that if nameless didn't self hammer, he would be outing himself as scum, why on earth did juls change her vote?

This is something you and I believed, but I don't remember Juls expressing this opinion. You are putting our words in her mouth.

@ geraintm: why did you not vig me? it would have saved us a hell of a lot of trouble.

WTF? How can you expect ger to vig you when you posted this in twilight:

a mislynch is not terrible. if town has vig's, please be careful. if we see two nk's, a misfired vig shot could put town in a lynch scum or lose position tomorrow. if people want to be mad at me and not move their vote tomorrow that's fine. i will have to assume you are scum. look at the wagons, not just the drivers. scum throw votes on with little to no reasoning more often than not, and if your were paying attention to the last few pages you should have picked up on some of those.

i would like there to be discussion. if we decide to string me up, so be it. if we have a vig, i am a much better nightkill.

I really don't care for this line. You've just told us how you shouldn't be lynched, you have one (count 'em ONE) vote on you, and you're already bargaining for a night kill instead.

i don't look at it as "bargaining". i am just trying to help town. lynching me would put us at even steven tomorrow from the looks of it(assuming three anti town roles.) all i'm saying is that town

allegedly has a vig

. from the flavor and number of the kills per night we should reasonably believe that we can clear him. sure there is wifom, mafia could send in a no kill, but at least i would be cleared without a mislynch.

porkens: do you have any other suggestions for a lynch? or would you rather force through the day, like juls, without discussion, investigation results, etc.?

i am a dead man walking. that much is clear. you guys just need to make the right choices to win this game. if anything, my day 1 play should be a complete null tell, so lynching me will prove nothing.

Hmm... I don't like this line of reasoning. If you don't want to be lynched, asking to be vig killed instead doesn't help the town if we are in LYLO like it appears we are. It's also weird to suggest that you should be vigged and also suggest that your day one play is a nulltell.

Your quote conveniently misses the "Either" which MT originally had. Otherwise, I would probably agree that your interpretation might be valid.

i do not miss the either. either i am scum and dropped a case that wasn't working(no mention of why). or i am town who has caught scum. mt's theory is that i am either scum or town. it does not directly translate into nameless' alignment.

This pretty much captures my thought process perfectly. However, if some idiot comes along and insists that I have to push for don's lynch because of it, I won't dignify that bullshit with a response.

just noticing this, but from my point of view, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon. i am wondering if mine and nameless' argument could have caused a complete self destruction?

What? Both of us were on the wagon and we're anything but confirmed, obviously.

i am mistaken. ip does not confirm mega. mega's posts seemed very town to me on day 1, but i could be skewed because we shared the point of view that nameless was scummy. i am not trying to spread misinformation. i would appreciate it if we could converse a little less argumentatively here on day 2. i am trying to help. my statement was pure speculation. juls, you are now calling for a lynch of on of two people. what was so scummy about mega from day 1?

You only thought I was town for about 10% of the day. The rest of the time, you accused me of committing a mountain of scumtells. You only decided that I was town when I helped you get what you wanted (a Namless lynch). So what makes you so sure that I'm town?

I will post an analysis after I have heard about geraintm's night actions. I think it is important to know if he used his vig ability or his watcher or ability or neither. And it is important that conversation move fast because our deadline is Thursday. I am disappointed. Let me be disappointed. I will post more after I hear from geraintm.

In twilight, you said you suspected myself, don, and canadianbovine. CB is dead and you are clearly pushing for the two of us that are left, so nothing has changed. The only reason to hold back your analysis is to limit your liability if ger's actions contradict your assessment.

No, MTs statement breaks down into a) a is town, b is scum b) a is scum, b is town. With no other possibilities, unless "you" can find sufficient evidence that there is another case.

you are completely wrong here. mt never states why player "drops" the case. mt never states that b must be scum. you are wrong. i am not going to argue with you.

Your quote conveniently misses the "Either" which MT originally had. Otherwise, I would probably agree that your interpretation might be valid.

i do not miss the either. either i am scum and dropped a case that wasn't working(no mention of why). or i am town who has caught scum. mt's theory is that i am either scum or town. it does not directly translate into nameless' alignment.

Ok, so based on the wording of the first statement, it allows for 3) a is scum, b is scum. But, the implication of MT's statement still is if either flips town, the other is scum. Which is convenient for mafia if both nl and don were bickering townies.

No, this is not convinient for mafia at all. If you lynch one, you still have to make a case to lynch the other. Scum do not gain an advantage by suggesting what I have suggested.

Suggestion about trackers: perhaps, if our tracker tracks someone who went out and they did not target a dead person, we have the tracker lie and said that they did not go out at night? Assuming mafia have a role-blocker or something, then us assuming someone that went out a night and did not kill is a town could prove fatal, meanwhile the knowledge that someone did go out and is not part of the mafia makes our power roles vulnerable to attack, pegs some people as vanilla and the mafia will still have an easy time at picking power roles. If we ever decide to string up one of our trackers I think we should then ask because if there is a possible mass confirmation of townies than we can possibly more easily avoid mis-lynches...

Are you really suggesting that powerroles should lie to confuse the scum? Don't forget that such a lie would confuse townies as well, which is a bigger blow to the town then it would be to the scum.

also the wifomic nature of your question helps to clear him. my bottom line: are you going to clear him for playing dumb? i have won as scum by playing dumb. its one of the easiest ways to skate through to endgame.

I get your point, but which is more likely: ger is playing dumb, or he really made a mistake regarding his role? In my experience, townies do make these kinds of mistakes. Do you have any reason to believe that he is playing dumb outside of this one mistake?

I was clubbed unconscious last night. I doubt that would have any effect on penguin's power if he really is a tracker.

what

?

That's flavor I got last night. I was clubbed unconcious.

Also, in case it's not clear, we are in LYLO. We have nine players now. 9 alive - 1 lynch - 2 kills = 6 which is a town loss barring some kind of miracle. This basically makes my plan on dealing with penguin an extraordinarily bad idea.

What kind of miracle?

I don't know, that why I'm so sure we're in LYLO.

[Juls]

I haven't read anything today. My daughter fell at her daycare and cut her head. I have been at the emergency room tonight and don't feel like messing with it. I will post tomorrow night.

For now,

unvote

, in case anything has happened.

[Atronach]

I'm sorry to hear that Juls- I hope your daughter feels better soon.

[don_johnson]

nameless lynched himself. don_johnson has all of one vote, it took seven to lynch. not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1. no wonder he got lynched.

Um, you jumped all over him when he implied that he wouldn't self vote like he promised he would. Besides, why are you heaping dirt on a dead townie?

sorry, not trying to heap dirt on the poor bastard. i don't remember "jumping all over him". i think that might have been you.

knowing that if nameless didn't self hammer, he would be outing himself as scum, why on earth did juls change her vote?

This is something you and I believed, but I don't remember Juls expressing this opinion. You are putting our words in her mouth.

nosirree bob. i had this conversation with juls. she may not have felt the same way, but i explained this line of reasoning directly to her.

@ geraintm: why did you not vig me? it would have saved us a hell of a lot of trouble.

WTF? How can you expect ger to vig you when you posted this in twilight:

a mislynch is not terrible. if town has vig's, please be careful. if we see two nk's, a misfired vig shot could put town in a lynch scum or lose position tomorrow. if people want to be mad at me and not move their vote tomorrow that's fine. i will have to assume you are scum. look at the wagons, not just the drivers. scum throw votes on with little to no reasoning more often than not, and if your were paying attention to the last few pages you should have picked up on some of those.

come one, now. people railed against me all day for trying to "direct" the doc. ger was one of those who didn't approve. i posted full well knowing noone would be listening. i actually thought my post might antagonize someone. my honest hope was that i would be vig'd. in fact, i had canadianbovine pegged as a vig. not sure if anyone noticed his question about the possibility of two vig's. i am still amazed that neither one of our claimed power roles were targeted by anyone.

Hmm... I don't like this line of reasoning. If you don't want to be lynched, asking to be vig killed instead doesn't help the town if we are in LYLO like it appears we are. It's also weird to suggest that you should be vigged and also suggest that your day one play is a nulltell.

i stand by the statement that my day 1 play is a null tell, in that it is perfectly reasonable for two townies to have a disagreement which spirals into a lynch. i didn't employ "scummy" tactics in my argument with nameless(other than the "shameless" which i did to be funny). all of my evidence was real. his play was anti-town. you voted for him too. i only suggest vigging me to avoid a mislynch. i think you may be right about lylo, however, a cross kill can keep us in the running. i find it odd that ger didn't use his vig attempt. it would have been a good town play to vig me before the day's start. are you going to argue with me on that?

just noticing this,

but from my point of view

, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon. i am wondering if mine and nameless' argument could have caused a complete self destruction?

What? Both of us were on the wagon and we're anything but confirmed, obviously.

i am confirmed to me. you are not as i state next:

i am mistaken. ip does not confirm mega. mega's posts seemed very town to me on day 1, but i could be skewed because we shared the point of view that nameless was scummy. i am not trying to spread misinformation. i would appreciate it if we could converse a little less argumentatively here on day 2. i am trying to help. my statement was pure speculation. juls, you are now calling for a lynch of on of two people. what was so scummy about mega from day 1?

You only thought I was town for about 10% of the day. The rest of the time, you accused me of committing a mountain of scumtells. You only decided that I was town when I helped you get what you wanted (a Namless lynch). So what makes you so sure that I'm town?

nothing really. it is not odd in the least for someones suspicions to shift during the course of this game. sometimes players can have revelations about other players and shift their opinions quickly. it wasn't the fact that you jumped the wagfon with me that made me think you're town, it was your reasoning behind it. the fact that you were home last night helps a bit. though i wonder why you were clubbed...

also the wifomic nature of your question helps to clear him. my bottom line: are you going to clear him for playing dumb? i have won as scum by playing dumb. its one of the easiest ways to skate through to endgame.

I get your point, but which is more likely: ger is playing dumb, or he really made a mistake regarding his role? In my experience, townies do make these kinds of mistakes. Do you have any reason to believe that he is playing dumb outside of this one mistake?

his play is terrible. i outlined the few other reasons i have. his post that significantly reduces my contribution to day 1 to "nothing of substance" and "more wasting time on the doc" just doesn't sit right. you can write it off as my ego, but i am tempted to do a pbpa of that post and point out everything he decided to glaze over. also, his denial of evidence is scummy. refute evidence. don't deny that it is applicable when it clearly is. a definition

straight from the mafiawiki

is not something that should be dismissed with a simple wave of the hand. has anyone in this game been in a game with a JOAT? if so, how many abilities did they have?

Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean here by:

his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

If you don't mean they could be scumbuddies, what did you mean?

ger conveniently clears himself and the other tracker. however, later in the game he could easily make the case that he only knew IP was out. this still leaves IP in the hotseat for a mislynch. yeah, i'm reaching a bit, but its plausible. making others look town can easily help any one of us look more town. like i said, i'd like others input. noone seems to be sure of anything. i guess i am just believing IP's "dumb" act more than ger's, and due to the fact that neither one of them was targeted in any way makes me think at least one is lying.

i am also not sure what to think of mega's "clubbing"? it may be an attempt to smear IP. IP admitted to going to mega's house. why would he admit that if there was some sort of foul play? also, what kind of role goes around clubbing people anyhow?

TO ALL: if we are in a possible lylo, how do we feel about a mass claim? if we choose to do it, how would we go about doing it?

[Atronach]

@Don- I was taking the 'clubbing' as flavor for a roleblocker.

I am not in favor of a mass claim- seems to me to be a good way to let ourselves be picked off one by one.

@Everyone- I understand Lylo to mean you must lynch scum or lose the game that day? I think that we'd only be in that state tomorrow, and that's IF we cant catch scum today. What am I missing?

[geraintm]

That's a

horrible

breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even

because

, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

yeah, i've not really ever tried to do that sort of thing before, but i thought with me being a tracker it was such an obvious thing to do during the night might as well point to it.

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

unsure how your suspicion of me could get any higher really?
the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.
my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

why would i have vigged you?
i wasn't sure who was scum day one, and the odds of shooting scum get better once night one is out of the way after mafia kill some townies. my odds now are 1/x-2, not 1/x
i would also have a better idea of guessing who i think the bad guys are too leaving it an extra day.

also, i know he says he wanted to be honest, but why admit to being a "one shot vig" in the first place? it sets up the scenario for the explanation of a nk later in the game. this is a huge liability for town.

honestly, i don't believe him at all.

why mention the vig role, well i have always been taught to be truthful as town, don't lie. if i hadn't mentioned the vig and then later killed someone, how would i have explained that?

your post 476 - seriously, quoting dictionary/com at us to back up your position?
why do you want me dead so much. are you thinking i have a vig for tonight and you really, really don't want me to shoot you?

he has already discounted the self-vig. which, by the way, is somewhat anti-town. sorry, but i don't trust night killers, especially one playing as bad as this.

don, what happens if i self vig?
9 players now
we assume 2 scum one SK (is that a safe assumption to make, anything else seems unbalanced)
so 6 townies left
we lynch someone tonight, taking us to 8
i kill myself, taking us to 7
SK and mafia kill one each
taking us to 5
so left with 2 town, 2 scum, one SK
that is what you are advocating to happen?
you want me to kill myself to confirm i am town, rather than have SK/scum kill me due to being scared to me catching them?

look, i realise my wrong claim has screwed things up, and if that costs town any chance of winning then i am really sorry for effectively wasting everyone's time, please don't let it happen

I see only two possibilities regarding geraintm at this point. One is that he's lying about his role and everything else- in which case we should lynch him, as there is no pro town reason for him to be doing so. The other is that he's telling the truth about his role and the mistakes he made- in which case we should make the best of a bad situation and decide, as a town, who he should vig.

agree, everyone has to agree on me very quickly, if this goes on longer than a day or two discussing me, then wastes time for later more important discussions.

come one, now. people railed against me all day for trying to "direct" the doc. ger was one of those who didn't approve. i posted full well knowing noone would be listening. i actually thought my post might antagonize someone. my honest hope was that i would be vig'd.

no one ever posts something if they think they are going to be ignored.

post 489, you have me quoting yourself and adding some text, but that was not me who posted that, you quoted incorrectly

ger conveniently clears himself and the other tracker. however, later in the game he could easily make the case that he only knew IP was out. this still leaves IP in the hotseat for a mislynch. yeah, i'm reaching a bit, but its plausible. making others look town can easily help any one of us look more town. like i said, i'd like others input. noone seems to be sure of anything. i guess i am just believing IP's "dumb" act more than ger's, and due to the fact that neither one of them was targeted in any way makes me think at least one is lying.

i have not cleared penguin at all. all my result shows is that no one came to penguins house, penguin can still be doc, SK or mafia. if you are thinking me an penguin are paired because i have cleared him, then you are making assumptions based on very foolish thinking.
i hope you go back now and rexamin your thinking knowing that i have not cleared penguin at all

at the moment, i am leaning very strongly towards don being suspicious. i can't work out why he is pushing me so hard, making assumptions which aren't true, linking me in scummy pairings, mixed up logic on what people should be doing etc unless
a) he is a bad guy and scared of my one shot
b) got sidetracked by my abusing him in my posts and he can't see past that
Discuss:

[don_johnson]

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

how is asking players what they think "pushing"? you seem to enjoy spinning what i say to seem scummy. i am asking a question. i would prefer an answer to a ridiculous question. we are not technically in lylo, but we do seem to be in a lynch scum or hope for a cross kill and lose scenario. i honestly think we need more info on the table. you and IP claimed and were not targeted by scum. so what's the harm? my fos is warranted. i explained why you were included. can't tell if you are playing dumb with me or not.

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

unsure how your suspicion of me could get any higher really?
the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.

you were. mega pointed out that several could mean just "more than one." my dictionary entry shows that not to likely be the case, but whatever. it only the dictionary.

my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

noone is saying you said it "cleared" anyone. i am glad you are trying to be truthful.

why would i have vigged you?

to make this day easier.

i wasn't sure who was scum day one, and the odds of shooting scum get better once night one is out of the way after mafia kill some townies. my odds now are 1/x-2, not 1/x
i would also have a better idea of guessing who i think the bad guys are too leaving it an extra day.

you had no guarantee of survival. you should have used the ability which better benefited town. maybe you think you didn. i think you didn't. if you are not lynched, you run a serious risk of nightkill. self vigging or vigging me would not be a good option unless we lynch scum today.

why mention the vig role, well i have always been taught to be truthful as town, don't lie. if i hadn't mentioned the vig and then later killed someone, how would i have explained that?

i'm sure you could have thought about something.

[geraintm]

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

how is asking players what they think "pushing"? you seem to enjoy spinning what i say to seem scummy. i am asking a question.

so you are saying you were merely asking the question, your answer to that question would be no, you didn't want mega to claim but you thought it best to bring up something you didn't want to happen because getting everyone else to waste their time answering yes or no to a question you think is no? is that right? is that what you are saying?

the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.

you were. mega pointed out that several could mean just "more than one." my dictionary entry shows that not to likely be the case, but whatever. it only the dictionary.

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with

several night abilities

, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.

Please don't split hairs. Several can mean any number.

really? you say saying mega was saying you were splitting hairs wasn't someone else besides me who called you on that? you are either the most finickity player i have ever seen, or you are really really trying to make me look bad

my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

noone is saying you said it "cleared" anyone. i am glad you are trying to be truthful.

seriously? i actually quote the line of text where

you

said i cleared myself and penguin and you then now say no one said it cleared anyone?

vote don_johnson

sorry the rest of you, i can't work out what else to do with him

[Danchaofan]

we're at 9, we can honestly expect to be at 4 tomorrow, 1 lynch, 2 nks from last night, 1 nk from gera, so uhh yeah lets scum hunt............

And you going on about how "scummy" a dead townie is 1) distracting 2) convenient for a scum who is going about how "good" a wagon is. I think I echo Juls sentiments in saying that I'll be okay with either IP or MT, I think I'll have a tendency towards MT once I finish my re-read.

I see you as equally guilty of prolonging this argument, which I do find distracting. I dont see how what Don said was wrong- he said that Nameless did not do all that great a job as town, which is hard to argue with. He isn't saying that somehow magically saying Nameless was actually mafia, and its a bit of a stretch for you to keep perceiving it as such.

Juls is advocating a don or MT lynch, not an IP one. Why would you be for an IP or MT lynch after all you've said about don?

No, I'm not arguing about NL's scuminess (which would be distracting), I'm arguing at the possibility of Don being scum and brushing off suspicion of campaigning for a wagon that lead to town. Typo sorry- I'm looking over don and MT right now. IP and MT doesn't really echo Juls.

Suggestion about trackers: perhaps, if our tracker tracks someone who went out and they did not target a dead person, we have the tracker lie and said that they did not go out at night?

How would we be able to trust the people we think are trackers? If we could trust one, what is the point of lying now that you've brought it up in game? Anyone they peg as 'did not go out at night' is now vulnerable to scum suspicion that they are power roles.

We only need to trust our trackers if they track someone that targets someone that got nk'd. The point of this is to protect our power roles. If someone goes out and they did not nk: they are either a townie power role or a mafia role other than the killer, or a third party (i.e. sk). The mafia know who has roles among them so it is logical for them to target anyone who targets someone that is not killed (as they are most likely a town power roles). Anyone who does not go out at night and is not mafia the mafia would likely assume is a vanilla (or pgo or miller or commuter). So, in order to protect our power roles it makes more sense to not reveal them. The second portion is unlikely as I don't think we will be lynching any of our claimed powers, however if we do, it makes sense to attempt to clear people. That said, if we have any claims from role who target in the future i.e. vig, doc, watcher, whatever, we should and a nk'd IP tracked them and said something inconsistent (they stayed home), we shouldn't rely on IP to convict them iff we go ahead with this plan.

Also, when did you become so certain that both our role claims were telling the truth? Earlier, you flat out said you didn't believe Gera:

I don't believe Gera. Partially because of the redundancy and partially because 1 tracker result is easy enough to fake and a SK or mafia could easily sacrifice 1 nk. I also don't trust Gera to follow the tracker discussion that he decided was worthless to realize that IP is under serious consideration for lynch even if he just hits one tracker result wrong, and IP isn't a 1-shot tracker.

Yes, I'm still weary of both of our "trackers". I'm a little more believing of gera as a watcher though. I still wouldn't mind seeing some kind of confirmation. i.e. scum kill one =).

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either

he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working,

or

he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you." i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

You keep harping on the specific wording of this one point, but you aren't looking at the whole situation. I posted that don or Namless should be lynched, then Namless comes along and heaps dirt on me but doesn't address the reasoning in what I posted. At that time, I thought it was highly likely that he was scum, and when he posted what he did, I thought he was just ensuring his survival and limiting his liability by protecting don. I posted reasons to believe that lynching one of them was the best play, and Namless suggested that it was equally likely that they were both townies but he didn't provide any reasoning behind it other than that it was a possibility. So, thinkin that he was scum, I insisted that he provide some kind of evidence that the two of them were townies.

(we're talking about nameless right =P) Let's assume two town are seriously debating. And both are under close scrutiny for lynch. Mafia can subtly put forth a statement that one or the other has to be scum. Come day 2 and one of the lynchee flipped town. The mafia pick up the other wagon (which had to have evidence if both were in consideration for lynch) and continues under the premise that one of the two had to be scum. Thus, the mafia ensures two mislynches. Meanwhile someone comes along and says, "hey, what if these two guys are just two townies" Your line, puts burden of proof to find evidence that BOTH are town. There may not be evidence, both townies probably had scummy actions due to them being lynch candidates, but, the possibility is discredited due to lack of "evidence".

Can you go back and find where NL said it was "equally" likely that they are both town. I don't think NL ever protected don. NL's posts seem fairly confident that don is scum but concedes the possibility that both NL and don are town.

[Danchaofan]

@Everyone- I understand Lylo to mean you must lynch scum or lose the game that day? I think that we'd only be in that state tomorrow, and that's IF we cant catch scum today. What am I missing?

I'm pretty sure lylo can mean continually lynch scum or loose i.e. 5 alive 2 scum barring anything fancy, if scum are lynched 2 days in a row, town wins, any other scenario and town looses.

[don_johnson]

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

how is asking players what they think "pushing"? you seem to enjoy spinning what i say to seem scummy. i am asking a question.

so you are saying you were merely asking the question, your answer to that question would be no, you didn't want mega to claim but you thought it best to bring up something you didn't want to happen because getting everyone else to waste their time answering yes or no to a question you think is no? is that right? is that what you are saying?

no, that is not what i am saying. i am asking you this:

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

and you are COMPLETELY avoiding answering the question. instead you are trying to cast suspicion on me by somehow guessing my answer. i want to know how town feels about this. i want input, just like yesterday when i asked for input on how we go about confirming players like yourself who have claimed power roles. i am asking for input and you are slinging mud. for the record: I SUPPORT A MASS CLAIM AT THIS STAGE. yes it endangers our power roles, but we need to lynch scum today to have any chance at winning this game(barring a fortuitious cross kill, if that's even possible.) ger, if you are town you should start cooperating by answering questions.

the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.

you were. mega pointed out that several could mean just "more than one." my dictionary entry shows that not to likely be the case, but whatever. it only the dictionary.

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with

several night abilities

, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.

Please don't split hairs. Several can mean any number.

really? you say saying mega was saying you were splitting hairs wasn't someone else besides me who called you on that? you are either the most finickity player i have ever seen, or you are really really trying to make me look bad

finicky? maybe? but i do like my ducks in a row. i don't look at mega's post as "calling me" on anything. he offered his opinion which was: several can mean any number. in the definition provided by wiki, "several" seems to me to be used as an adjective describing the word "abilities". that points to definition number one which means "more than two". is the wiki wrong? maybe, but it is certainly admissible as evidence when trying to determine actual claims from fakeclaims. i am not trying to make you look bad. you are doing that on your own by avoiding any responsibility for your actions and your lack of ability to answer questions without offhanded comments attacking my character.

my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

noone is saying

you said it "cleared" anyone

. i am glad you are trying to be truthful.

seriously? i actually quote the line of text where

you

said i cleared myself and penguin and you then now say no one said it cleared anyone?

yeah... and. I SAID YOUR RESULTS CONVENIENTLY CLEAR YOU AND IP. I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID IT, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING ME OF.

sorry the rest of you,

i can't work out what else to do with him

if you can't find scum its because you are. try pointing the finger at someone else besides the guy you don't like. your vote is omgus. also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

[Atronach]

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

Having him choose his own target completely defeats the purpose of having town direct the kill.

What I'd like from you, Don, at this point is clarification. Is gera still your vote for the day or do you want him to use his power? And if so, what target are you nominating?

[don_johnson]

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

Having him choose his own target completely defeats the purpose of having town direct the kill.

What I'd like from you, Don, at this point is clarification. Is gera still your vote for the day or do you want him to use his power? And if so, what target are you nominating?

unfortunately, i don't think choosing his target is a good idea yet. if i had to choose now, i'd say me or himself. right now, i'd rather lynch him. until he starts contributing to the scum hunt and stops avoiding logical protown discussion i see no reason to believe his claim. also, mega's predicament implies the existence of a mafia roleblocker which could block ger, or serve as a convenient excuse for ger if he is lying.

honestly, the only down side to a mass claim that i see is that we out our doctor(if we have one). however, doc can still protect tonight, so if by mass claiming we can identify at least one scum, i think it would be a good trade at this point.

to say ger is my vote for the day would not be prudent. ger can still change my mind. others offering input can still sway my decision. but like i said: i don't believe him at this point. he is voting for me. from my point of view he has a much higher chance of flipping scum than myself, and his play has done nothing to prove that he is town(to me), yet.

i would like people to discuss the pros and cons of a mass claim.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: atronach, when i stated that ger should vig me in my last post, it was meant in direct response to his "i don't know what to do with him," comment. i may have just been being a smart ass. not sure if you took what i said out of context or not, but just thought i'd clarify.