Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[Rhinox]

damn... posts disappeared here too...

I

voted: Rogue Shenanigans

earlier, and there were a couple votes on Kort as well.

[Rhinox]

What would their be to discuss? At this point it would be random guess. Based on the choices I think he picked the safest path plus we have a goal to get to the tree!

I agree with the choice as well...

Rhinox looks left... oooh, scary cliff. Rhinox looks center... aaargh, scary forest. Rhinox looks right... hey, look at that tree. I wonder whats there?

Its the only choice that gave us a destination, instead of a path. Its always good picking the path that gives somewhere to go.

[Rhinox]

Can't blame RS for picking that path

as it seems like he didn't even mean to

- unless there's something in his role about being the one who picks the way, it looks like he was voting for a direction without realizing he was actually picking it.

ORLY?

The first person to bold either Path A, Path B, or Path C has made the decision.

Later when it actually matters more. I do not condone such immediate choosing without a little chin wagging. But as it was said that such a choice right now wouldnt mean much,

I took it apon myself to feel a bit special and pick the path.

unvote, vote Occam

for not reading the thread

[Rhinox]

Was anything important said in the comments that were deleted?

Korts claimed scum.

Quicklynch go!

mwahaha!

dies of laughter, its now night 1

...

in all seriousness, RS started a bandwagon on Korts and said something to the tune of "yay! bandwagon time" so I responded with a "you're right!" and put the second vote on RS... I don't remember anything else.

[Rhinox]

unvote, vote Lunar Tick

To give him something to talk about

[Rhinox]

I really want to know why everyone is so uptight about the ramifications of RS picking path C? Its distracting, and is not scum hunting. Its arguing over nothing.

[Rhinox]

Also worth noting is that both Rhinox and MM have posted since I asked someone to explain the Lunar wagon and neither has done so. This reinforces my belief that it's unfounded.

Whats so noteworthy about that?

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-4

Lunar Tick - 5 (Rhinox, MonkeyMan, Rogue Shenanigans, Korts, Kiro)
BSG - 1 (Prom King)
Rogue Shenanigans - 1 (freeko)
MonkeyMan - 1 (BSG)
Kiro - 1 (Occam)

Not Voting - Syplus, Lunar_Tick, Raider

With 12 left, 7 to lynch.

[Rhinox]

Well, Occam, I didn't wagon on Lunar, so I'm wondering what you find so noteworthy about me not explaining the wagon. I can't really explain why other people decided to wagon lunar.

The question we should be asking is, why are you so worried about votes on Lunar?

[Rhinox]

Why are you still on LT's wagon? Do you feel it's justified?

That all depends on whether or not LT is scum.

If so, please explain why to me, because you're still a vote on it, which implicitly states that you agree with it.

Actually, it means I don't disagree with the votes on LT, which carries a slightly different meaning. My vote stays on LT because I don't find anybody any more scummy than anyone else, so LT is just as likely to be scum as anyone else I could be voting for. If he gets lynched, he gets lynched. I'm not afraid to participate in lynching anybody. You have a problem with LT being lynched?

[Rhinox]

False dilemma? Neither, actually, just trying to prevent a mislynch.

What makes you so sure the lynching LT would be a mislynch? What evidence is there that LT is town?

[Rhinox]

A. I I were scum the LAST THING I would be trying to do would be steering the town AWAY from a mislynch.

Thats quite bad wifom, considering that scum often argue against a townie mislynch to prove their good townie judgment.

B. I'm not sure it's a mislynch. I just see no evidence that it will be a good lynch.
C. Asking me to PROVE that LT is town is the same as asking someone to PROVE that they aren't scum (then using the fact that they CAN'T as evidence that they ARE scum, or in this case, the fact that I CAN'T prove that he's town as evidence that he's scum):

I'm not asking you to prove anything... but surely you must have some reason, or some information, that makes you think LT would be a mislynch, as opposed to simply a bad lynch at a bad time.

But its nice to see you know how to browse the wiki

Oh and isnt all that ABCD crap WIFOM? I mean an actual reason might help. The only thing you are telling me is that the 2 of you are linked somehow. Lovers? Scummates? Help yourself out here.

hmmm... fishing much? Occam defending LT doesn't mean they are linked.

[Rhinox]

I'm actually attacking... Rhinox ...via and because of your bogus play. It's more an act of scumhunting than it is a defense, if you read closely.

I've been trying to wait for LT to post something before I do this, but whatever...

Unexplained bandwagons DO serve a purpose Occam, especially on D1. Lots of purposes actually. You can see what type of response you get from the person being bandwagoned, you can see who jumps on the wagon and why, you can see who ignores the wagon all together, you can see or supports the wagon but doesn't vote, you can see who is vocally opposed to the wagon and why, etc... All of this is valuable information to keep tucked away until later in the game when concrete information is known about players roles, and then logical conclusions can be made.

That being said, lets talk about why you suspect me... first, it was because I didn't justify the case for the wagon on LT. Well, seeing as my vote was random and the first vote on LT, I'm not really part of the wagon. My vote should be analyzed separately from the rest of the bandwagon votes.

Ok, so then it was because I didn't remove my vote from LT after the wagon started, so it must mean I agree with it and support it. Well think about it... leaving my vote on LT during the wagon gives us the opportunity to get answers to the questions I posted in the first paragraph in this post. Removing my vote... does nothing. It removes pressure from LT, preventing any type of a reaction. It might stop others (possibly scum) from jumping on the wagon, and possibly stalls the game. Yes, LT might have possibly been lynched - He could be town, or he could be scum. But even if he were town, the information gained from the quick, unjustified lynch of a townie would be worth the loss of a townie on day 1 (which I believe I've been told that site wide, day 1 ends with a townie lynch something like 60-80% of the time anyways).

What you've done by defending LT is choke the town of valuable information. Because of you, LT hasn't had to respond to the bandwagon, and probably doesn't view it as a threat. What we do learn is that you're furiosly opposed to the wagon on LT. That might mean you and LT are scum partners, that might might mean that you're scum trying to earn "good townie" points by defending a town player -or- it might mean you're town that thinks there is scum on LT's wagon, or you're newbie town that doesn't understand the utility of D1 bandwagons, or you're just a townie making a stupid move by not letting LT speak for himself and possibly make a mistake. Afterall, if you're town, for all you know LT could be scum so you might as well use this bandwagon (even if you feel its unjustified) as a way to get a read on LT before assuming the wagon is bad, right? Because if you're town, you don't know whether LT is scum or not, right?

Here's another way to consider this. Think of it as analogous to the chicken or the egg dilemna - if we all had to have definitive evidence before we voted someone, then we would never vote anyone. If nobody ever voted, then scum would never give us any tells we could use as evidence.

Now that I've explained all this, the utility of my vote on the LT wagon has run its course. I don't see anything scummy about how LT has acted so far, but I was hoping this wagon would give us something to get a better read on him. I've taken note of who jumped on the wagon, and who ignored the wagon, for later when we know more about all the players invloved. I find Occam scummy for defending LT. Yes, Occam, defending LT in the manner you did is scummy, because instead of trying to determine which, if any, of the 5 players voting for LT might be scum, you put out a blanket statement "The wagon is bad and everyone voting for LT is scummy" when clearly all 5 players can't be scum in a mini. However, I find freeko scummier.

unvote, vote: freeko

[Rhinox]

Rhinox - do YOU think what LT did was scummy?

Now that I've explained all this, the utility of my vote on the LT wagon has run its course.

I don't see anything scummy about how LT has acted so far, but I was hoping this wagon would give us something to get a better read on him.

I've taken note of who jumped on the wagon, and who ignored the wagon, for later when we know more about all the players invloved.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see leaving a vote on someone being bandwagoned as an easy way for scum to justify being on a bandwagon. It's very convenient for you, if you're scum, that the bandwagon formed on the person who you had a random vote on. Does that make you scum? No, but I still find it suspicious.

Its not convenient for me at all, if I'm scum, or if I'm town. By calling me scummy for leaving my vote on LT, you're assuming 2 things - that I'm scum, and LT is town. There are 3 other scenarios. Consider this... I leave my vote on LT, and he's quick lynched and scum. What does that mean? What if I remove my vote because of the bandwagon, and LT is scum? What if we're both town? There are just too many possibilities, and too many WIFOM angles, based on too many assumptions you can't possibly know are accurate, for me leaving my vote on LT to be anything more than a null tell. Using certain assumptions, you could come to the conclusion that I'm scummy regardless of whether or not I immediately removed my vote. But instead of worrying about which decision would make me look scummier, I made my decision based on what choice would provide the most information to the town - and keeping my vote and allowing the bandwagon to continue provided more information than removing my vote and playing the WIFOM game of who's scummy for bandwagoning LT.

There are probably somewhere between 2 and 3 scum. MM, Korts, and Kiro are the scummiest of the 5 on the wagon. Does that mean the other 2 aren't suspicious? No. Does it mean any of those 5 are automatically scum? Also no. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to hold back a vote on something I consider scummy.

Strange that you can come to that conclusion without even knowing whether LT is town or scum... Do you think 2 or 3 scum are on LT's wagon if LT is scum? In either case, I find it unlikely that there would be so many scum out of just 5 votes on LT's wagon. I would be suprised if there were 2 scum out of the 4 other players (besides myself), probably either 1 or none.

However, you've moved your vote. Can I ask why you think freek is scum? You've laid out a page long summary of why you think I'm scummy, and not mentioned freek, but then said he's scummier. I agree that freek's question about me and LT being "connected" is suspicious - but is that the reason you're voting him? Anything else to add on that?

Freeko was fishing. Hard, and obviously. He used an invalid assumption that you and LT are scum mates (based on nothing more than you defending LT) to try to pry more information out of you about your role.

Aside from that, freeko hasn't really done much. He hasn't been scumhunting, and he's thrown out Japanese proverbs that seem like nothing more than a charade to try to make himself look smart. But the biggest thing is that in his 7th post (looking in isolation), he viewied the LT bandwagon as nothing more than "a play to get some information from the player that is bandwagoned", but came to the conclusion that you and LT are BOTH scum based on nothing more than your defense of the LT wagon, and used that to attempt to fish out more information about your role. I mean, what was he expecting you to say? "Oh you're right, freeko, LT and I ARE scum partners... you got us!" Not likely...

[Rhinox]

"there is scum on LT's wagon" .. i suck at quoting, so meh.

You do suck at quoting, because thats not what I said... Here is what I did say:

I would be suprised if there were 2 scum out of the 4 other players (besides myself), probably either 1 or none.

...and the implication is that we need more information before we can come to any sort of conclusions about who was on the LT wagon.

What you did, was selectively quote what Occam selectively quoted from this statement:

it might mean you're town that thinks there is scum on LT's wagon

which was 1 of my 5 given possible explanations for why Occam might be defending LT, other than that they are connected.

In other, simpler words... this is a scummy misrep.

Rhinox, where do you get the idea that I had them pegged as scum-mates? For all I know they could be lovers. I love how you make this attempt at turning my questioning completely sideways here.

Actually, I got the idea that you had them pegged as connected, by numerous statements like this one:

The only thing you are telling me is that the 2 of you are linked somehow. Lovers? Scummates? Help yourself out here.

It wouldn't have been quite as scummy if you did say you thought they were scummates - then, its only using false assumptions to come to a possibly incorrect conclusion. However, you just openly stated you don't necessarily think they are scum mates and you just think they are connected in some other way, by role. Way to openly confess to role fishing...

If you missed a MINOR little detail, I do not have my vote on Occam. Nor did my vote ever get placed on Occam at any point.

ok... so I guess that means I can add fence-sitting to your list of scummy offenses. You did say this:

I am truly considring moving my vote either onto you or onto the bandwagon for LT, as it seems to have gotten a reaction out of you. I cant help but think that LT is playing the silent lurker scum while you are playing the more vocal of the group trying to convince everyone else that others within the group are worth more attnetion than your scummate?

Definate fence-sitting, while giving yourself an opportunity to jump on whichever wagon you felt like later, based on, again, the assumption that Occam and LT are scum partners. So maybe this was the post that gave me that idea

Any other straws you want to grasp at, scum?

[Rhinox]

..... :annoyed:

unvote

, pending confirmation from PK

I shouldn't have to ask you to spell it out, but just to be sure... freeko, does your role state that you know PK is town? Same for PK... do you know for sure freeko is town? Without that certainty, the mason claim doesn't mean much.

[side rant]
Why is it that whenever I play in games with masons, the masons play the scummiest and are forced to reveal themselves D1... 2 games with masons, same result... 'course, last time I was SK, so I didn't mind.
[/side rant]

[Rhinox]

Raider, my mason partner gave ME away actually. We are actually what looks to be 3rd party masons. Our victory condition (at least mine) is simply to get to the town alive on day 6. I also have the town win condition of winning when all scum are found. It is unknown to me what PK's alignment is.

Personally, I dont see how my role is a "power" role. The only thing I have is the ability to talk with someone else during the night phase.

IMO, being a mason is a power role because someone can confirm your innocents if you are told your mason partners allignment.

That being said, I'm a tad confused about the inconsistancies between what you just said was in your role, and when PK said he knew you were town.

As far as I always knew, masons were either confirmed (you know each other's allignment) or unconfirmed (you don't know each others allignment). PK claimed he knows you're town, but you claim you don't know PK's allignment. Can anyone here more experienced with masons tell me if that sort of thing (1 mason being confirmed, the other being unconfirmed) has happened before, and if it seems reasonable.

Regarding PK, if he is sure you're town, and you're unsure he is town, then this claim gives us valuable (and from now on, confusing) information about PK... either he is town and he believed you knew he was town, and he outed you to save you and confirm 2 townies, -or- he's scum gambiting that it would make him seem confirmed as town by preventing his mason partner townie from being lynched.

[Rhinox]

Would it be unreasonable to ask for someone who has an investigative ability to look into him?

I'm not sure if that would be the best thing. In my other game with masons, someone suggested a cop investigate one of them, and it was pretty much shot down by everyone as the worst idea ever, although I'm not exactly sure why. Mainly, I think, because the cops investigation choice shouldn't be determined by the town, since there are scum who could manipulate the cop.

[Rhinox]

I don't think you're missing something, I think it's a bullcrap claim.

Well maybe... but as this is a theme game, we can't count out the possibility of unusual roles - even ones we haven't seen before.

We still haven't heard from PK again yet, so its a little premature to be calling for the lynch of a claimed mason, who's mason partner claimed he was innocent. even if they are lying, there are still more scum to find as well.

[Rhinox]

And it would be nice if Korts could explain why he thinks it's bad to lynch one of Freeko or Prom King.

Just to add on to what korts said, in my only other game with masons, the masons had to claim on D1. Both of them were acting scummy, and a few people, myself included still wanted to lynch them after the claim. After discussion, this is what came out of it:

(PS: skip the quotes and read below for a summary)

Mini 688

I'm inclined to believe the mason claim at the moment, only because I doubt scum would claim confirmed mason with their scum buddy this early. If its ever found that either one of them is scum via cop investigation, death scenes or whatnot, they're screwed.

Cop shouldn't be investigating us in the first place.

Well, I was speaking hypothetically, but yes, investigating you or RBT would likely be a waste.

Xtoxm and Rice probably both know I am not a fan of how they have played this game, but meh. Nothing can be done about that. If we believe their claim (I do. The risk vs. reward is very poor for scum to pull this gambit as has been mentioned) it does allow us to not be distracted by their play styles (no offense meant Xtoxm, since I actually like playing in games with you despite not really liking how you play).

Rhetorical question. Given that masons are mafia without a nightkill (and win with town), you can see just how convenient a mason claim is for scum. At the moment, I think it clears, but masons being outed always gives me a funny feeling.

Mason is one of the worst claims for mafia to make, and it's nothing like being mafia.

Especially on d1, masons is a horrible scum claim and the risk vs. reward just doesn't balance out. If either player turns up scum during the game, the other is an auto-lynch. Only the best players could argue their way out of a mason claim when their 'partner' turns up scum. Now if this was close to endgame, mafia might pull a gambit if the numbers worked out where they felt they could gain enough trust to push enough mislynches for the win.

Off topic theory regarding the mason claim: I agree its a bad claim to make as scum on D1, but I'm wondering is it suicidal? meaning, are there situations where it can work? Yes, if one of them dies and is scum, the other is an auto lynch, but how would 1 of them die if they're scum? Assuming the town believes them, then an SK or vig would have to hit one. An sk might hit 1 to try to get the town to lynch the other if they're both scum. I've heard an sk's first priority is to eliminate the mafia, just like town. A vig might hit 1 to prove the claim and either give us a good lynch the next day, or a confirmed townie for at least a day. A cop could get a 2 for 1 investigation by investigating 1 of them.

Assuming none of those scenarios happen, I suppose the 2 claimed masons lasting until LyLo (when there is suspected to be more than 1 scum remaining) might raise suspisions, but even that wouldn't prove they're scum. Now consider that both RBT and Xtorm were directly in the town's crosshairs... is it worth playing the mason gambit if you think you can't argue your way out of the lynch otherwise? Either it was planned at night to claim mason if needed, or Xtorm dragged RBT into it by claiming, forcing RBT to play along. Knowing little about mason involvement on the site, my first reaction is to think that saying its a horrible scum move to claim mason D1 is WIFOM if there is a chance or examples of scum being able to pull it off. If its never been done/can't be done, then I'll concede the point and label RBT and X as "most likely town"

As for the masons - no it definitely is not suicide. One thing I do know about xtoxm though is he does not gambit much and he is not an exceptionally skilled liar by his own admission outside games. I haven't seen a fake claim from Xtoxm yet (outside of claiming vanilla as scum) and I don't think RBT plays that way either. This isn't to say I don't expect them to ever make a fake claim as mafia, but I find it unlikely mason would be the first choice. So, for me, that is definitely giving an early game pass through d1 and possibly d2. Closer to end game I could consider them being scum if both happen to still be alive.

The problem with that is that is that its very likely that at least one of those scenarios will happen throughout the game, especially the SK kill. Claimed masons are either real masons or lying scum. SK's need to kill masons quickly since confirmed innocent's are extremely dangerous to SKs late-game, and if they don't have NK immunity, the mafia are high on their list of targets as well. Therefore, even the possibility of an SK makes claiming mason with a scum buddy extremely risky. Scum can't afford to risk two members (likely 2/3 of their team) on those odds.

Xtoxm says cop shouldn't be investigating the masons. This I do not like. Think about it: Xtoxm has said they were confirmed town to each other. Thus, they are either both town, or both scum. That means that a cop investigation would be able to clear or criminalise both of them. That's by no means a bad investigation (I am not saying a cop should necessarily investigate them; I am simply saying that there are good reasons for such an investigation)

This makes me very happy with a Volkan lynch today.
- - - - - - - - - -
tl;dr version:

"Ugh. Mason claim from my two top mislynches. I'll see if I can salvage a cop investigation on them, though."

X, you are completely twisting my words. I didn't positively say or imply that a cop SHOULD investigate you. I simply disputed your argument that a cop should NOT do so. My position is simply this: it would not be inherently unreasonable for a cop to investigate the masons, contrary to your blunt and unsubstantiated assertion that "Cop shouldn't be investigating us in the first place. "

I've posted all the quotes so players could come to their own conclusion, instead of having to just rely on what I say. Basically, it is my belief, based on this game, that scum claiming mason on D1 is unlikely due to the fact that it is very likely 1 of them will be killed at some point, revealing their true roles. Therefore a cop should not waste an investigation on the claimed masons due to both the unlikliness that scum would try this gambit D1, and the inevitability that one or both of them will be killed before LyLo anyways, revealing who they are. In the event that a cop is still considering investigating them anyways, note that only an innocent on PK will clear both of them in our game, but a guilty on PK does not mean they are both guily. A guilty on Freeko means they are both guilty, but an innocent on Freeko doesn't clear PK. However, it is my belief that a cop should not investigate either of them, especially freeko.

This game is slightly different in that both can't confirm each others innocence. Given what i said above, I find it unlikely that both are scum. I think Freeko is innocent, given that he is the confirmed one of the pair, but we must still be suspicious of PK because he is not confirmed. PK may be gambitting that by claiming to save freeko from lynching, he will be viewed as town, especially in the event that freeko is later nked and proven town. That doesn't mean we should immediately lynch PK - rather, throughout the rest of the game, we can't simply consider him to be confirmed town, even if freeko dies and is a town mason.

[Rhinox]

I voted for Freeko, I don't have anything new to say.

vote MonkeyMan

I think we found our lynch choice

[Rhinox]

Sorry MM. I remember Jebus posting this in the queue regarding this game. Since it was posted in the queue for all to read, before the game started, its info about the game we should all assume is truthful:

Which makes my game the only one currently open.

Which means that you people who may or may not be reading this should get over here and sign up.

No vanilla = moar fun :O

This game doesn't have any vanilla roles, so that makes you lying scum I believe.

[Rhinox]

(but I would like to here what MM has to say about that before anyone hammers)

[Rhinox]

Whats a cleric? I couldn't find anything in the wiki... but maybe I didn't look hard enough...

*feels like such a noob for still not knowing all the potential roles in mafia*

[Rhinox]

Monkeyman, can you tell us what your role does?

[Rhinox]

Because I'm already voting you, and I don't know what a cleric is or does, so it would be nice to have a description to base a decision of whether your claim is believable or not... anyone can throw out a role name, and you already lied about your claim, so it would be nice to know if your role is something that would justify a lie to protect.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-9

MonkeyMan - 7 (BSG, Rhinox, freeko, Occam, Raider, Sipylus, Korts)

Lunar Tick - 2 (Rogue Shenanigans, Kiro, MonkeyMan)
Occam - 1 (Prom King)

Not Voting - Lunar_Tick

With 12 left, 7 to lynch.

That's a hammer. See night scene below.

[Rhinox]

Well, my role is provable, but I'd rather not do so at this point, my only safeguard against being killed is that the mafia doesn't know what I do.

Well I'm not convinced, but I would still like to hear more discussion before someone hammers.

You're really just creating a WIFOM situation here. On one hand, mafia might nk you anyways because you imply you have such a powerful role - on the other hand, if you're not nked, maybe its because you are mafia.

If I was not voting for you now, I would not hammer until I heard a full role reveal, but I have not yet heard enough to justify removing my vote. I will leave it up to others to demand a full role reveal from you if they see fit, but I strongly urge nobody hammer until MM gives a full reveal.

[Rhinox]

You realize that if you get lynched, it wont matter what you do?

Just adding on, its better for the town to have the mafia nk you than to get lynched for refusing to RC.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

You realize that if you get lynched, it wont matter what you do?

Just adding on, its better for the town to have the mafia nk you than to get lynched for refusing to RC

if you're really town

.

correction in italics.

[Rhinox]

You can't prove anything if you don't tell us what you're proving.

As far as your claim, you really haven't. You first lied, then threw out a role name that no one seems to know, and we're just supposed to take you at your word that you can prove your role?

For the record, if someone demands you claim (properly) or die, and you choose death, then it is most definitely your mistake and not the towns.

[Rhinox]

This, unlike morning decisions, is a constant with very little effect.

Mod: if I'm reading this correctly, then I understand this decision has very little effect. Is this correct?

If this is true, then there is really no need to debate about it. The only thing I see coming from the debate is information helpful to the mafia - i.e. who's protown, or who has some role incentive to being the watcher seems to me like info that only helps the mafia, if there is little effect (i.e. no benefits or consequences) to whoever watches. It makes logical sense that whoever watches should be town, but if it truely doesn't matter like the mod says, then we should just let the dice roll decide. (also, if it doesn't matter, then why do we even have to pick?) That being said, I'll be the watcher if its requested of me.

I also have a question about MM: is an indifferent Doc a doc that is not alligned with either side? So, like a survivor doc? That explains why MM didn't full claim I guess... his incentive was to survive and not necessarily help the town.

Also I'm glad I went back and read the death scene again to see this:

only six votes to lynch.

...before bitching out the mod for not keeping vote counts accurate

[Rhinox]

Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.

Korts, why weren't you watching when Occam disappeared last night?

[Rhinox]

I have to start Rhinox with a disclaimer. Rhinox is VERY good at this game. I was in the game where he was serial killer and totally thought he was town (I was the cop btw, but replaced out). People who can be so convincing at anti-town roles make me nervous.

The only thing I want to note for future study is that he seemed to lead the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim. I want to note it because it will be interesting to see in the long run if this was intented to make town doubt them or if it was good townie discussion. To be determined.

The post that started the discussion:

Well, someone thought I was scum that game you're referring to... I did get vigged N1...

Also, I'm not putting doubt into the mason claim... actually, I was arguing that masons who claim D1 are usually indeed masons, and not lying scum. It was important to know whether the masons were confirmed or not.

I'm also wondering... Why is it a problem if I was "leading the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim" (which I wasn't doing), if you are doubting their claims (i.e. you're voting PK and you say freeko is slightly less suspicious than PK.)? Why do you doubt their claim?

Also, Juls, I thought I remembered you saying a while back you were through with mafiascum... I'm glad to see you decided to stick around.

Its more of a check than anything else. and to that extent i think its real simple (and pretty much wifom as well). Either korts is telling the truth and he flips town, or he is not and he is a scum. I am very heavily leaning twoards teh scum side right now. Problem is there is only one way to truly find out.

This is about the worst reason I've ever heard for lynching someone...What reason do you have to suspect korts is scum? This is no different than singling anyone else out and saying, "eh, their either scum, or their not". If this is really the route you want to go, we'd be much better off lynching either you or PK... at least that way, we might confirm a townie (or catch a second scum).

[Rhinox]

Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.

PK, seriously, participate. You've claimed to be a town role, so start acting like it. Quit giving us reasons to doubt you.

This is not helpful:

Did anyone get any valuable info last night??

Also, I'm assuming Occ was killed by the mafia.

Its only fishing and speculation. Why don't you try making a case against someone?

I'm guessing LT is going to be replaced.

Megaflare: more out of you would be nice. Since you're a replacement, maybe you can make a post similar in style to juls where she summarized her scum reads on everyone.

Sipylus: is this player still in the game? or was he replaced? prod if he is, hasn't posted since the 19th.

[Rhinox]

mod: how recently was Rogue Shenanigans prodded?

RS was already replaced by megaflareon...

Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me. It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.

This absolutely sounds like you think we or at least korts should have known that the 6th vote was the hammer. If not, what are you saying then?

As far as Korts choosing to watch without the town's consent, its WIFOM to attempt to figure out if thats scummy or pro-town. Maybe Korts is scum, and watched so someone from the town couldn't, or maybe Korts is town and watched to prevent scum from taking watch. Even if Korts is scum, it doesn't mean he was lying about his watching results, and it doesn't mean we'll magically get his information if we kill him and he is lying. Therefore, lynching Korts based on his decision to watch last night is not a good idea.

I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.

In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-2

Prom King - 2 (BSG, Juls)
Korts - 1 (freeko)

Not Voting - 7 (Rhinox, Megaflareon, Prom King, Lunar_Tick, Korts, Sipylus, Raider)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick.

[Rhinox]

I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.

In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.

Are you asking everyone to just let you watch tonight and test out your theory?

yes, and no. Firstly, I figured we'd talk about who's watching tonight when tonight comes. Secondly, my theory is just that - a theory. Saying what I'm speculating won't effect the outcome, but IMO doesn't need discussed now because its all pure speculation, and doesn't help us catch scum today.

[Rhinox]

Freeko are you just not reading or do you often have difficulties understanding what people mean? He is saying that HE is the only person that HE knows to be 100% town (because he knows his role). He is NOT saying that we know him to be 100% town.

QFT

I have half a mind to just lynch freeko for all the misinterpretations and bullshit. Also why do I get the feeling that only three or four of us are talking? There should be ten of us still alive and pointing fingers for fuckssake.

and... QFT. Well, minus the lynching freeko part. I don't think freeko is scum, I just think he's completely off track with his scum hunting. If he were scum, with a faked mason claim, I would expect him to start lurking to hide behind his facade of innocence... oh hey, kinda like what Prom King is doing

[Rhinox]

Prom King has yet to respond to the claimed mason part if I am not mistaken.

Thats absolutely true... PK hasn't said anything about the mason claim since he said "*wink wink* I know freeko is town". I don't know whats so hard for him to actually answer a question and paraphrase his role PM for us...

[Rhinox]

If I recall in that post he said he can confirm PK on one night and freeko on another night. Read my theory under the Occam section of my big long post. I think that is where he has wandered off to and what he is doing during the day.

Thats... a very interesting thought.

[Rhinox]

freeko, did you say that you can't confirm PK's alignment?

What was said, is that, alegedly, PK knows 100% that freeko is town, but freeko is unsure of PK's allignment and can't confirm him.

Possibilities:
1)PK is scum, freeko is town. My feelings, Its possible, but unlikely. Here's why: PK voluntarily confirmed freeko. It wouldn't make sense for scum-PK to do that. Instead, PK could have hoped freeko was lynched, and shown up as mason. Then later in the game, if/when PK was found suspicious, he could have claimed to be freeko's mason partner, and there would have been no counter claim. He also could have stated they were confirmed to each other, and it never would have been known that PK wasn't confirmed. Of course, freeko would have claimed before getting lynched, as it seems it was getting to that point anyways, and the specific role information would have then got out anyways. PK's flaky play so far makes me think that the early role reveal is on par with flaky play, and not some scheme to make us think he's town for being so willing to prevent his townie mason partner's lynch.

2)Both are scum. My feelings, its possible, but unlikely. It would be a gambit, but with freeko being "confirmed", and PK not, this seems on paper like it would be a perfect ploy to make freeko seem like town after lynching scum-PK. Freeko's mention of wanting to lynch PK makes me worry this is possible. However, I doubt this is something that freeko and PK could pull off and improvise on the fly after the freeko wagon started, so for this to be the case, it would have to have been prepared in the night. I find it unlikely that, especially in a mini with probably either 3 or 4 on the mafia team, that a gambit would be tried D1 to intentionally sacrifice 1 member, and implicate another, with the chances of it working being less than if the scum just played straight.

3)Both are town. My feelings, most likely, based on the unlikliness of the alternatives. Either way, based on my feelings of option 2, freeko is probably town. PK may or may not be town, but shouldn't be our focus today. There are probably 3 other scum in the game even if PK is scum. Our focus should be on finding the other scum, and worry about PK later in the game if he makes it that far.

4)freeko is scum, PK is town. Impossible, unless PK doesn't understand his role PM, and freeko is lying about being confirmed. Given PK is being flaky, that is why

PK really needs to paraphrase his role pm for us

But if we hope to acomplish anything productive today, we need the other half of our town participating. Me, Korts, Juls, Freeko, and Raider have been posting mostly regularly today.

Sipylus, LT, and PK pretty much need replaced.

BSG and megaflareon have been posting, but I would like to see some more participation... mf moreso than BSG.

[Rhinox]

Out of all the opitions I think this one makes the most sense to me. The next being both of them town. Why else could one confirm the other and not get it in return.

So you're saying that just because PK isn't confirmed, that automatically makes him scum, because otherwise the role doesn't make sense? Isn't that kinda a form of trying to outguess the mod? If thats the case, why would PK have bothered to confirm freeko, unless he didn't know freeko couldn't confirm him. But if thats the case, how does freeko know PK can confirm him?

I would expect the role PMs to be consistent, like:

PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment, but he doesn't know yours; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment, but he knows yours

-or-

PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment.

Of course, I guess that means I'm sorta playing the outguessing the mod game as well...

@Juls: I agree, if PK is dies and is revealed Town mason, or scum mason, then freeko is definately town. I don't see how paired scum masons makes much sense, considering scum already can talk to each other at night. If PK dies and is scum, w/o the mason part, then we should probably assume freeko is scum.

I'm starting to rethink right now... the only other game I've played in with masons, they both claimed to be confirmed, so they were either both town, or both scum, for sure. So, it was considered bad to lynch them because if they were town, scum would pretty much have to lynch 1 or both of them by LyLo anyways, since confirmed town players are dangerous to the scum, and if they were scum, The likelyhood that an sk would have taken one out, or a cop investigating them to confirm by day 3 or 4 when it would be getting close to LyLo would have made two scum faking confimred masons practically suicide. Lynching PK, if he is the best choice, might confirm freeko, even if that makes freeko the likely nk choice.

Since PK has been dodging questions, which is definately scummy, and assuming he's unconfirmed, thats a good enough reason for a vote IMO. I certainly don't find any of the other active players as scummy as PK is right now.

vote: prom king

time to start talking.

[Rhinox]

Though I have the basic town win condition of "find the scum", I think I am likely to be an indifferent 3rd party. As I only care about getting to the next town alive. Most of this is all stuff I have said before, a little reading would have shown you this. I know and PK knows that I am town aligned. I do not know his alignment though.

Got it. You're a town alligned survivor.

But... even if the mafia gets a mojority at some point in the game, I think there are still situations where some members of the town can make it to the next town without being able to be killed by the mafia... does that mean those townspeople lose since they don't have the make it to the next town wincon, even though they're not dead?

@Juls, I like your theory about Occam going off to investigate something. Without speculating too much, that means he can investigate something, but has to be away from the group for the day? or, maybe he'll return sometime today once we trigger something? like, when we get to a certain number of votes or something.

Whats bothering me though, is that if this is true, then something is missing from last night...

[Rhinox]

Sorry Jebus, trying to stay active here because I think this is a very interesting game so far, with the extra choices at day and night and what not. But the inactives, specifically PK has really ground this down to a halt.

Maybe later today I'll post some PbPA's of everyone and see if anything pops up though... no promises though. Super Bowl today. GO STEELERS!

[Rhinox]

I would rather no one get mod killed as that takes away from the spirit of the game.

QFT

[Rhinox]

Yay! Vi came

HOWEVER. Based on freeko's reaction to being outed as expressed in the QuickTopic I was given with my Role PM, I don't think he's Mafia.

You might think differently when you read the part where freeko said his role PM said he was confirmed...

OK, there is now an obvious solution here:

unvote, vote: freeko

for insisting he was confirmed when he's not. Lynch All Liars. If freeko is scum, I'm comfortable letting Vi live a while, but not as confirmed town.

If freeko is town, then Vi is

obvScum

probably scum for coming in and telling us freeko was not confirmed when he was (freeko said he was confirmed - if he's town, he's probably telling the truth).

Confirming in.

Good evening, middle of hostile nowhere!

It looks like I'm going to have to claim first thing. Fair enough... I am seafoam. I'm a Miller, because people confuse me with Ocean Spray (that disgusting canned drink from the '90s).

...wait, I think I missed something. I signed up for Water Mafia, right? *reads cue card* I'll come in again.

Oh. My. God. Hilarious! (especially because I was practically typing up a post to confirm vote you for lying about your role, until I realized you were joking around). never a dull moment when Vi is around

Again, terminal idiot. Expect him to make a guest appearance in my rulesets.

hehe. Prof. Guppy has a friend.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

Vi, just so you know. The caravan reaches the destination town on the start of day 6. That is listed in the game rules.

I saw, but I haven't seen anything that specifically says that anything happens at that point. It's heavily implied, but I don't see anything "in writing".

Rereading now.

Another Lie? Freeko says his role PM has an alternate win condition of making it to the next town, and Vi says his does not. At least one of freeko or Vi are probably scum... I thinking freeko, because scum-Vi could have gotten out of his lynch in a way that wouldn't have made him the obv lynch choice the next day.

[Rhinox]

Vi's claim makes me think that they're both scum, actually. PK I can easily imagine as having tried a crude gambit (claiming masons with a scumpartner) and pulling freeko with him; freeko's response fits the profile of wary scum going with the plan but ready to bus, and Vi's most recent claim of neighbour covers all bases in case of a lynch of either one of them.

hmmm... good point actually. However, one of the 2 of them are lying, which means at least 1 of them are scum for sure. Freeko seems more likely to be lying to me, and if he's town, we're going to get Vi anyways. Freeko should be lynched first.

But then, I don't see why they would openly disagree about it during day for all to see.

Well, Vi's claim post makes me think if they're both scum, thats not how Vi would have claimed... It would have been better IMO to keep with the story freeko already started, and then gotten out of the lynch by simply participating, to keep both scum alive, instead of really throwing freeko under the bus. But thats WIFOM, so maybe they are both scum... And if freeko is town, Vi basically just climbed into the coffin.

[Rhinox]

Out of the two, freeko is more likely to be scum; but I don't really like how hard you're pushing the notion that one of them is definitely scum. My stance is that it's more probable that both are, but entirely possible that neither are scum. Vi makes a fair point about how you're setting up a Vi (mis?)lynch upon a mislynch of freeko.

You should read this post then, and see why at least one of them HAS to be scum... unless you think town have a reason to lie about their roles...

I said that my win condition is that I make it to the next town alive, this happens on day 6 (as the rules state). I have made the assumption on my own that surviving until day 6 would be the alternate win condition. It also says that I win when all threats to the caravan are removed.

This is what I have said from the start. The only lies are the ones you are choosing to fabricate out of twisting things away from what they really are.

Last side note, go look up Neighbor from the role wiki, it redirects to Mason. I presume that since we are not sure of each olthers alignments it is more correct to call us neighbors than masons.

ORLY?? I'm fabricating lies? lets go back to the tape...

We are actually what looks to be 3rd party masons.

Our victory condition (at least mine) is simply to get to the town alive on day 6.

I also have the town win condition of winning when all scum are found. It is unknown to me what PK's alignment is.

here you say you have the alternate win condition of making it to the town alive at the start of day 6. Vi does not have this condition, and town roles (me, occam) do not have this win condition explicitly stated. If you have it, you are the only one.

I cannot directly quote my role pm, so I cannot really answer it better.

He knows my alignment (town)

, but I do not know his it seems. The last line of my pm says something to that effect. That I am not sure of his alignment.

Here you said PK knows you're allignment. Vi says PK doesn't know you're allignment. One of you 2 are lying.

Just so you know korts, the caravan reaches the destination town on day 6. It is the last rule in the Other category.

PK and I

win by either siomply making it to the town or by finding all scum. (Would be hard to get killed if there are no scum left I think)

Here you say PK and you BOTH win by making it to the next town. Vi says PK does not have that win condition. Again, one of the 2 of you are lying.

The reason you vote for PK is that

I cannot confirm PK while PK can confirm me.

again you say PK can confirm you. blah blah one of you are lying

Rhinox has it right on the money when he said that

PK knows my alignment and I do not know his.

and again...

Though I have the basic town win condition of "find the scum", I think I am likely to be an indifferent 3rd party.

As I only care about getting to the next town alive.

again with the alternate win condition...

I know and

PK knows that I am town aligned.

I do not know his alignment though.

again with PK knowing your allignment...

Also, here's something else I found...

If you all decide to lynch PK, then so be it.

I dont agree with this lynch,

but I understand why it would happen.

ORLY?

So my scumdar goes something like this. I will gain information by the

lynching

of RS,Korts, or

PK

.

you said you would gain info from lynching PK...

Anyways. My speculation is that PK is trying to hide something from me. He did not participate in the discussion at all. All he really did was force me into tipping my hand and making me need to claim my role all the more relevant to my survival. The problem always has been that I cannot confirm him, but he can confurm me.

you think PK is trying to hide something from you... (p.s. again with saying PK can confirm you)

I want him replaced. hopefully his replace metn could do.. SOMETHING in the game where PK did nothing in our discussion thread in the last game night. Along with obviously being absent for this game day as well.

As an extension of this, I would not entirely mind him getting lynched

, as I cannot cofirm his alignment. The way the pm I have is worded is so that I am to be suspicious of his alignment right from the start.

here you say you wouldn't mind him being lynched...

This is unfortunate, we are at an impasse effectively. Is there a possibility of modkilling if no one replaces?

here you say you want him modkilled if not replaced...

So why is it that when we were actually considering lynching PK, you said you didn't agree with it?

Cry OMGUS all you want, but its not about you voting for me. Its about you not wanting people to live when they are confirmed town. Only reason for that is obvious.

*facepalm* Seriously? thats all you got? I've let it slide before you not reading and misrepping me, but now its rediculous. OBVIOUSLY, what I was saying is that if you are scum, then Vi can live for a while, but I wouldn't call Vi confirmed town if you are scum.

[Rhinox]

Sheesh... from no activity, to not being able to keep up...

I like how thinly veiled this is getting.

Vote: Rhinox

(L-5)

If he's scum, we lynch Korts-scum for being his partner.
If he's Town, we lynch Korts-scum for feeding his wrongness.

See what I did there?

yeah... I see what you're saying, but I think you're trying too hard. As I believe what I actually said was if freeko was scum, you've earned your right to live and NOT be tomorrow's lynch, but if freeko is town, then you're scum (see my last post for "Reasons why one of the 2 of you are lying").

Korts is the one being ambiguous. He's the one who brought up that he thought you were both scum. I agreed that he had a point, but knowing one of the two of you have to be scum (see my last post for "Reasons why one of the 2 of you are lying"), I think that freeko is more likely scum and should be lynched

first

before considering whether or not freeko and Vi are potentially scum partners (I think my use of the word first was wrong and not representative of what I was trying to say)

So, while I understand your concerns, I think you were reading too much into what my intentions were/are slash not realizing how obviously freeko has been lying since the mason claim was made.

Before I'll go into the things that has been said since

VI's

first post (welcome BTW), I'd like to know from Freeko what his role is called in the PM.

hehe... uh-oh, beware Vi's wrath!

Pre-emptive EBWOP:

I would not entirely be happy with lynching someone who I was not sure was scum, but I would have done it to move the game forward.

In reality I would have been expecting the NK there so I would have been able to get away from this game pretty cleanly and not really care that half the people in the game then are inactive.

You were perfectly happy to lynch korts as soon as the day began, and you were not sure he was scum. That had nothing to do with just moving the game along, which by the way is THE WORST reason ever for lynching someone, unless there is a deadline imminent.

Also, just because you "expected to be the nk", that doesn't mean that you should automatically stop caring about events in the game that may be a deciding factor in whether or not your side wins... That sounds selfish and scummy to me...

Now that your skills at taking things out of context are complete. I now grank you the rank of context knight. You still have a ways to go before you are one with the context of things.

Instead of sarcasm, maybe you should try to explain how you have not been obviously lying about your role all game...

[Rhinox]

I'd like to know from Freeko what his role is called in the PM.

You tell me yours and I will tell you mine. There will be no other terms or negotiation here.

C'MON! this isn't pinging anyone elses Radar as rolefishing, now, on top of everything else?

Freeko, it should not be too hard to just answer the question. You've already claimed your role... might as well give us a name. Also, please quit dodging the issue and explain to me how I'm taking things out of context, and how you've not been lying.

BSG, the only part of my post directed to you was the part about Vi's wrath... the first line about not being able to catch up is because everyone is posting so rapidly at the moment, that everytime I post I'm crossposting, so I'm not being able to keep up...

[Rhinox]

And Rhinox, please look at post 381. Perhaps Vi spares me as I'm not the only one who has to start begging

I saw it I thought I would get more amusement out of whatever Vi has to say about it, though

@freeko: Die scum.

That is all.

[Rhinox]

2) Prom King claimed to confirm freeko as Town. freeko understandably had no idea what was going on with that, because my Role PM says absolutely nothing about a confirmed-Town partner and I'm willing to believe freeko's doesn't either. So here you have a conflict of interest for freeko - Prom King is calling freeko obvTown AND is "linked" to him, but at the same time is acting like obvscum who deserves a noose necklace.

And this is a no-win scenario, because I believe freeko is Town (if not confirmed Town).
If you're up in arms about someone lying, I've already covered that Prom King lied to you and everyone about having a confirmed partner, so there's really no mystery about it. But I don't think you're interested in who's lying, so long as one of us gets lynched.

Also, lining up lynches is *bad* in the general sense.

ok... I see whats going on here... This may potentially be a huge oversight on my part... I thought freeko kept insisting that PK could confirm him because it said so in his (freeko's) role PM. But why wouldn't freeko have just said that to clear it up, instead of acting all wierd and saying nothing but "your taking things out of context and fabricating"...

However, I have another question... shouldn't the topic of whether or not the masons can confirm each other come up in the quicktopic pre-game discussion? I've never been a mason before, but that seems like the first thing I would want to ask my partner...

1) That our win condition is to survive until D6, with eliminating the bad guys being secondary. This is an understandable misreading (well, understandable to me because I can read my own Role, although I can't quote it to you) but, as mentioned earlier, not the case. Dare I ask if anyone else got a similar message in their flavor text?

Occam and myself have both said we don't have any 6 day alternate win condtition in our roles PM.

Also, my issue with freeko's claim of an alternate win condition is that:
A) if he has it in his role PM, then he's (probably) the only one, but in one post he claimed that you and him both had that win condition (and you've confirmed today that you dont, and
B) If he doesn't have it in his role PM, it seems like he read the rules, saw that the town made it to the next town at the start of day 6, and assumed that all town probably had that win condition as well - however, the fact that he originally stated he recognized it as an alternate win condition makes me think A) is more likely, unless he stated it that way to be safe, and thought townies would come to his rescue saying "oh I have that win condition too..."

^^

those issues aside, I still don't know why freeko has a problem stating his role name, now that we already know his role, and I find it extremely scummy to ask for BSG's role name in return.

ok, so he's given us his name now... seems believable to me.

@Freeko, does your role PM state Vi can confirm you, or did you just infer that based on PK actually claiming you were town? Does your role specifically say you have an alternate win condition of making it to the next town alive, or did you just infer that from the flavor? I want answers to these questions before I consider unvoting.

@Raider: I've been trying to get a read on you all game... I get the feeling you play as sort of an active lurker... would you say that is an accurate description of your playstyle, and do you think that is a legitamite strategy to use as town?

Um, hello? You DO realize who you're talking to, right?

Ah yes... the wrath of Vi returns.

P.S. Next game you mod, you should include a Dayvig named Right Said Fred, who must include the phrase "I'm too sexy" in every post

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-6

Rhinox - 3 (Vi, Freeko, Korts)
Freeko - 2 (Rhinox, BSG)

Not Voting - 5 (Megaflareon, Lunar_Tick, Sipylus, Raider, Juls)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick and Sipylus, in that order. Megaflareon has one day to respond to his/her prod.

Deadline is in 17 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

[Rhinox]

FFS yourself...

@Freeko, does your role PM state Vi can confirm you, or did you just infer that based on PK actually claiming you were town? Does your role specifically say you have an alternate win condition of making it to the next town alive, or did you just infer that from the flavor? I want answers to these questions before I consider unvoting.

These are two simple and easy to answer questions, and neither requires you to quote your role PM. I'll make it multiple choice.

1: Does your role PM state Vi can confirm you, or did you just infer that based on PK actually claiming you were town?

A)Yes, my role PM says Vi/PK knows I'm town.
B)No, my role PM does not say so, but I thought PK knew I was town since he claimed in thread I was town.
C)FFS... I'm being unnecessarily defensive and hostile, and I refuse to answer any question or be helpful in any way.

2: Does your role specifically say you have an alternate win condition of making it to the next town alive, or did you just infer that from the flavor?

A) My win condition says I win when all threats to the town are eliminated, or if I survive to make it to the next town.
B) My win condition says I win when all threats to the town are eliminated. The flavor to my role says I only care about making it to the next town, but is not stated as a win condition.
C) I don't care what you have to say, and I'm not going to be helpful to the town.

So far you have answered C for both questions. I want to hear in your next post a clear A or B answer for each question. There will be no compromise here. Give an F-ing straight answer already.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont try to be an active lurker but I do come across like that. So I guess it could be considered an accurate description but I try to be more then that. I guess you need to play a few games with me to see that. My problem is that I miss the little things other people pick up on. Some people have a knack for it, I am not one of those people. As far as a legitimate strategy I would have to say sure, I have yet to be replaced in any game I have been in. One thing that gets me is when someone has an argument I stay out of it until I decide which side I think it right.

Hope that explains it.

Sort of... I'm still piecing some things together.

By legitimite strategy, I meant, do you think it is a protown way to play?

The problem I forsee with staying out of arguments until you decide which side is right is that it sounds dangerously like scum fence-sitting until there is a wagon to jump on...

You made this comment earlier:

Not removing your vote is not a bad thing it causes discussions and that is always good. I am a reserved voter as in I normaly do not vote unless I have reason too. However I have learned its the people that toss their votes around that get people talking and in the end figure out the best people to lynch.

But, you've only placed 2 votes the entire game, both on the same person: your random on monkeyman, and then the vote on the monkeyman wagon. Its seems to me like you're not following your own advice - you say the way to get people talking and figure out the best player to lynch is to throw your vote around, but you haven't done that at all. Should I infer, then, that you're intentionally playing in a way to not generate discussion to figure out the best player to lynch?

[Rhinox]

Oh wow. I think I get it.. A (were)wolf in sheep's clothing. What an excellent flavor for this game.

Oh, I guess since you made it multiple choice. The closest answers are B for both of them. Though for the first one I would add that PK is/was a (fill in the blank how you wish)ing idiot. The second one is spot on though.

Thanks...

unvote

while I reread and figure out whats going on now.

FYI, the reason I voted for you is because I thought when you first roleclaimed, you said the answers to those questions were both A, and Vi came in and said the answers were both B. You should have been more clear with your initial claim, and when it became apparent I didn't understand 100% what you actually claimed was your role and what was just flavor or inferred, and when I asked you to clarify how I was misrepping you, taking things out of context, and fabricating, maybe you could have actually done that instead of calling me scum.

I'm still suspicious of you for asking for a role name from BSG before giving your role name.

BSG, just to clarify, were you asking freeko to confirm what his role is labeled as in his PM (mason or neighbor), or were you actually asking him for his flavor name?

[Rhinox]

Flavor name, as it was already clear that the actual name isn't mentioned in the PM.

Since thats the case, then I'm suspicious of your question...

I mean, I know why you would want to know if you're town - to see if the flavor name is similar in style to your town flavor name... however, we don't know you're town. In a theme game, rolename fishing aka flavor fishing is kinda scummy, since scum need an idea of flavor and names they can use if/when they need to fake claim.

vote BSG

, but still exploring other routes as well.

[Rhinox]

...and your seeming-ignorance of me OBVIOUSLY BANDWAGONING SOMEONE is out of place.

oh wow... I completely missed Vi:408... have some comments on it:

RS later joined the Lunar_Tick wagon in 67 after L_T said he had mod-given info about which choices are better than others. Whoever replaces L_T needs to talk about this, pronto.

I don't remember L_T saying he had mod-giving info about the choices, I think L_T incinuated that there might be mod-given info in some people's roles (I.E. RS) about picking paths, and he said so in a scummy role fishing kind or way.

raider seems to like slipping by. His comments tend to be dispensable one-liners. Am I missing a meta here, or is this an obvious front for activity?

This is what I'm trying to determine.

THIS is interesting. Did you seriously think until me and freeko claimed that all the Townies were sheep? Excoos me for being incredulous here. With no sample Townie PM to base your judgment on, this either means your role is Sheep and your role PM has no indication that anyone else in the caravan is human, OR you have no idea who's in the Town because you're not one of them.

You're right... this is VERY interesting.

Why are you still on LT's wagon? Do you feel it's justified?

That all depends on whether or not LT is scum.

Um, what?

Well, seeing as my vote was random and the first vote on LT, I'm not really part of the wagon. My vote should be analyzed separately from the rest of the bandwagon votes.

Um, what?

I was trying to be discrete, so as to not remove any pressure LT might have been feeling as a result of my vote being on him. The LT wagon was the first of the game, and it happened to be on who I randomed for. Instead of unvoting with an "OMG why is LT being wagoned", I decided the LT wagon was a good oportunity to see how everybody reacted to an early, unjustified wagon (IMO, an LT lynch would have been entirely unjustified). Both my comments are truth. If LT would have been lynched and were scum, then there probably would have been some underlying justification for the wagon that I just didn't see. my second comment was my way of saying my vote should be seen as random and left strictly for pressure/reactions without actually saying "my vote had no purpose but for pressure."

ty;dr version: my vote on LT was random, but it was left on after the wagon started for pressure. My comments were meant to keep up the facade that the vote had a real threat of leading to a LT lynch, so that we would maybe get some sort of reaction out of LT (that never came, but it was interesting to see who jumped on the wagon, and who avoided it alltogether - a subject I really should revisit now that you've reminded me about it).

When not saying overtly suspicious things, Rhinox has come off as somewhat reasonable, to produce a generally uneasy read on him.

(And Juls, I know better than you do how good Rhinox is at this game )

I get the feeling you're ALWAYS going to have an uneasy read on me do to past games unless we're confirmed masons together, or on the same scum team.

When Jailbreak is over, I'll poll everyone about what the next game's theme should be. An iPod theme is definitely one of the options

Oh my... Its perfect! /pre-in!!!

Right Said Fred Daykill: I'm too sexy for Rick Astley

[Rhinox]

and you're right. Korts is obvscum. Way scummier than BSG.

unvote, vote korts

[Rhinox]

unvote, vote: Rhinox

Opportunism is a solid tell.

So is OMGUS!

wait... lets try that again...

unvote, vote: Rhinox

Opportunism is a solid tell.

Its awfully opportunistic to vote someone for being opportunistic, no?

One more time?

unvote, vote: Rhinox

Opportunism is a solid tell.

Lies.

Now for the "playing it straight" answer:

unvote, vote: Rhinox

Opportunism is a solid tell.

My post 420 is actually an extension of post 419, I just didn't put the EBWOP at the top. So I was still being vebose. I voted you for the point Vi made about you slipping up and calling MM a sheep - I thought he had a good point - and for a bit of pressure, and Vi wanted to wagon you, so I thought I would see where it went. Plus, Vi said you claimed scum. Can't argue with that

So you've said you're a sheep. Don't know why you would assume all townspeople were sheep, but that goes for whether you're actually town or scum. I don't think you need to claim - no sense in outing your super-sheep powers. Vi's expressed curiousity in what power you might have is noted.

unvote

Back to BSG... BSG, why did you want to know freeko's flavor name? I was assuming you were asking for him to give his role name, I.E. mason or neighbor, to see if it was consistent with what Vi said.

I did say the best way to start conversation is to toss your votes around. However that is not how I like to play. I do not concidered it pro-town or anti-town as that is just how I play.

1) I have been lynched for it as town and scum but that is just how I like to play. I like to think I become more useful as the days goes on as I have bandwagons to look into and more general information on the other players.

We are on day 2 and you have placed 8 votes. To me that says you are just trying to lynch anyone.

2) Is 8 votes excessive or are you just not sure who should be lynched?

If I vote someone I fully intend to see that person lynched or gain some valuable information from it. It sounds like you are trying to twist my playstyle around to sound like my play is always scummy however I play based on the information I have. Alot of new information has come about in the last couple of days.

3) We do not need to rush things.

1) I don't know how well you keep tabs on your ongoings in which you're deceased in, but I replaced into one of them where you were lynched D1 as scum. I'm exploring a bit of this meta connection since you're playstyle seems similar to that game.

I dislike the excuse "well I've been lynched for my playstyle as town as scum, so you should view it as a null tell because its just how I play", because you're basically admitting that you're aware your playstyle comes across as scummy to people, and you've done nothing to change it. Thus, when you're town, your playstyle is anti-town and detrimental to your win-condition if it gets you lynched and you have the self-awareness to forsee that your playstyle could get you lynched. My logic says, then, that you shouldn't act this way as town (because it would be anti-town and against your win condition), so the only other option is you're scum. I can also conclude that you only act that way as town, then, so you can have a meta defense when you want to lurk as scum (such as the game I replaced into).

2) Thats quite a loaded question. I don't think 8 votes are excessive, and yes I am currently unsure of who would be today's best lynch. But I like to use my vote to help determine that in addition to questions and logic - especially early in the game when there is less to go on and I'm more unsure than later in the game. I think if you meta my past games, you'll see that I throw my vote more early in the game, and later in the game I'm more sure of who to vote for and don't throw my vote around as much. Furthermore, when I'm throwing my vote around, I usually either ask questions/make comments along with my vote, intended to invoke a response, or I explain my vote afterwards when the utility of my vote has worn off (such as with my votes on LT, and now korts in this game). I also have a personal goal of always knowing who my top suspect is, so I should always be able to have my vote on someone. Sometimes that gets me into trouble when I try to hard to find a reason to vote someone. Its also not a rule, so I don't follow it religously. Thats why I call it a goal - its more like a destination of how I would ultimately like to play all the time as town.

3) I'm not intending to rush anything, and I don't know what gives you that idea... ok, maybe after Vi replaced in and I was really confident in lynching freeko, but that was based on a misunderstanding of what I thought freeko said was in his role. Other than that, what gives you the idea that I'm in any hurry to rush things along?

[Rhinox]

Wow, what a horribly weak excuse for an attack. You'll notice I didn't ask for a claim; I was just amused by the potential for a Sheep role.

So... let me know then when you're actually being atacked for it

Your overreaction to my statement that WASN'T an attack, is now also noted.

Y'know, on most non-kiddie bicycles backpedaling doesn't actually do anything.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In light of Rhinox 416, again, backpedaling.

No, I don't view it as backpedalling... excuse me for humoring your attempt at a wagon on Korts. If you'll notice, I was expressing concerns about BSG before jumping on the wagon... Did you really think I just thought "Oh forget it, Vi's going to let me get away jumping on Korts wagon so we can lynch him and no one will notice I didn't support my vote lololololllollololl" without intending to return to my concerns about BSG at some point (either after the korts wagon lost its utility, or korts really did claim scum and we lynched him )? You've been in too many of my completed games (3/5) for me to think you don't know better than that...

Though Korts is the ONLY person to refer to anyone or anything as sheep in this game.

NPC Jebus was sheep in the mod N0 flavorkill...

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

@Vi: forgot to add... so what are your intentions with the korts wagon... do you actually find him scummy, or were you just hunting for reactions?

[Rhinox]

Oh my..

That should be Vi.. Sorry about that.

hehe... lets see how freeko gets daykilled

Is anyone else a sheep? I knew from the start there was a sheep as my role hinted towards that. I sort of went into that before thinking that Freeko was a sheep or going to claim that. I have reason to believe that the sheep is also town.

hmmm... don't know what to make of this post. On the surface, its rolefishing. However, he might be completely honest here... wolves might be told to go after the sheep, so someone with a role as wolf would both know that sheep exist, and suspect that sheep are town (assuming wolf would be a scum role)... The "mafia" in this game might be a pack of wolves, or there might be a different mafia group, and a lone wolf sk type who's wincon is to eliminate the sheep... I remember someone talking about wolves before, going to go see if I can find out who.

[Rhinox]

And if you remember you said I only take the popular side in this case I am taking korts side.

I never really said you only take the popular side...

But since we've already had the conversation about your playstyle, you taking korts side now can be seen as you trying to WIFOM us into thinking you're town because you're not taking the popular side, so... Don't know if you were intending to shoot down my meta observation by saying that just now, or if it was more of a "by the way..." type comment to just take a jab at me.

[Rhinox]

What is this, Technicality Day? And I wasn't told ahead of time? How dare you slight me in such a way.
Your notation of my notation of your notation is, quite frankly, noted.

lmfao... whatever

Also lol, you ARE backpedaling with regards to assuming BSG's motives.

That said, BSG needs to exist.

You are right that I assumed too much too quickly wrt BSG, before asking her what her motives were. I wasn't so much backpedaling as hoping she would overlook my previous post and answer my question in my last post. That was my mistake, but what do you think it means?

That being said, I agree BSG needs to exist.

That being said, will you please tell me why flavor-fishing is a crap excuse for a vote on BSG?

You've been in too many of my completed games to not know better than to ask.
Of course I find Korts scummy. And you too

Well, you've called everyone who's active scummy, pretty much. (Juls, Me, Korts, Raider, and to lessar extents BSG and Freeko). Not quite sure what that means, other than being called scummy by Vi aparantly doesn't take much, nor mean much, ITT.

Also, I've pretty much resigned to be one of your focal points every time we're in a game together from now until at least you even the score. If you're town, you really want me to be scum so you can catch me, and if you're scum, you really want to setup a mislynch on me. Be Careful, though, lest we both be town and your thirst for revenge becomes a fatal mistake...

Also, I can't get the enjoyment out of your daykill until I'm home from work and away from the content filter I'm suprised youtube is blocked, but mafiascum/message boards aren't...

(Also, it occurs to me that you people set a sheep up to watch camp last night.)

Not true... did you not read the whole thread, or just the part where korts watched without the town's blessing?

Super-awesome flavor-based suspicion go~

All the cool kids were doing it

I'm so used to being older than everyone I've met thus far on the Internet that it still surprises me to hear about married couples.

Hey! since when does being married equal being old??? I'll be 25 when my big day comes in June, and my parents were 19 and 21 when they tied the knot...

OMGUS: Vi

This excuse is getting a little worn out, isn't it?

Maybe its not just an excuse...

But since all of us ITT are scum besides you, what do you have to say about freeko's reasoning for jumping on korts' wagon? (because the rest of us seemed serious about it, to see if korts was lying)

The part about you only knowing me as a scumbuddy is an ironic irrelevant detail, because that would mean that you in particular should know that I was a cream puff in Mafia 87. (

Yes, Rhinox had me on meta.

Though from D2 until Jah00do replaced in the game really was boring as what-have-you; I don't think I would have done much better as Town.)

And why do I get the feeling that because of that, you're being overly assertive and combative, excessively attacking everyone for anything, in order to try to subvert my meta on you? Remember, my meta is that you are ruthless in attacks when you're town, but your ruthlessness is directed towards only the person you think is scum - not everybody in the thread... You've kinda been all over the place so far ITT.

Meanwhile, I think you're obvscum - partly for trying to push that on me after coming off a wagon I started, partly for Kiro's votes, and partly for what armlx noticed about me in Mafia 87 - you just happen to get the third vote on the wagon these days.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'sup
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait, you're not voting here. Is it Rhinox that kept you away? Hmm... oh wait.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There we are.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh wait, it's Rhinox this time. But he's sketch too. And look, you're right before him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Careful Vi, you're being awfully incinuative here...

Oh, that im a sheep weaksauce? Yeah great. Thats a load of crap. I fail to see how being a sheep has any bearing on the game at all. Especially with how it relates to the supposed night watch that Korts did on Night 1.

Why not tell us what your role is?

good lord...

[Rhinox]

crap... missed the last page...

I think I need to toss in their that as long as no one counter claims sheep I am backing up his claim.

So just to confirm, your role proves the existance of just one other sheep, and not more? Seems odd to me, but I guess its possible.

Vi, I think a more important factor in the vote than whether it's third or fourth or second is the circumstances. And speaking only of the most recent Korts wagon I think Rhinox's vote is more opportunistic than Juls'. I'll have to go back and analyse earlier wagons but I'd rather have Rhinox lynched than Juls at this point, especially since he's spent a lot of his recent time backpedaling.

FFS... (Rhinox likes his shiny new acronym )

So just because I'm usually verbose about my vote when I place it, the one time I'm not means I'm opportunistic scum? Why don't you ask Vi how verbose I can be when placing votes as scum... screw the WIFOM, but do you really think my intention was to lynch you when I jumped on the wagon, considering I didn't even think Vi was being serious when he started the wagon on you? Korts claimed scum, go go go, ring any bells? How about: "Why aren't people voting Korts? Hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry, step right up. You can't get more of a slip than that. Two shots at the dunking booth for a quarter. Quit pushing, everyone gets a chance." Or even this one directed at me: "and your seeming-ignorance of me OBVIOUSLY BANDWAGONING SOMEONE is out of place."

So Vi goads everyone into voting you, on what was obviously aparent not a 100% serious wagon, and looked like a good oppertunity for a pressure-utility wagon, and then you and him have the balls to say "Ha! gotcha opportunistic scum?" I guess you could say I was opportunistic.. I viewed your wagon as a good oppertunity to see how you react to it, since I've had such a null read on you all game.

And IMO, the backpedaling accusation is crap.

I get a vaguely pro-town read on raider, not because he's defending me, but because of what he's defending me with: role-based information which I don't think scum would fake to clear town. To lynch town, much more likely.

So how does your opinion change knowing he's only confirming your flavor role name (sheep) and not your allignment?

I will asnwer this myself.

I WANT KORTS DEAD. Kthxbye.

...

I'm getting the increasing notion that freeko's motives aren't pro-town.

[Rhinox]

Vi, I've got to give you props. You're pulling out all the stops this time...

Uh, isn't this obvious? I think you were trying to push an explanation onto BSG. That's --scummy--.

I wasn't trying to push an explanation on her, I said why I thought flavor fishing was scummy, and the unfortunate part was that I gave her an out and gave her the answer for why a townie would flavor fish. First I should have asked her why she wanted to know the flavor, waited for her answer, and then explained why I felt flavor fishing was scummy. All I can see is that it was a mistake for me to make while scumhunting, as it pretty much makes any discussion about why BSG was flavor fishing worthless now, but I don't see how it makes me scummy... Tying into the next point...

Asking for a more full claim from someone whose existing claim is highly dubious is scummy?

Yes, absolutely, especially in theme games. In theme games, when scum don't have safe claims to make, scum need all the help they can get flavor wise in order to make a convincing fake claim. I'll use Meerkat Manor Mafia as my evidence for that, as someone recognized a scum day 1 due to flavor fishing. You replaced into that game didn't you? go back and read through late D1 I think, after mafiamann claimed.

Suggesting that my suspicion on you is even partly grounded in personal bias is, like, a totally awesome straw man and mildly insulting.

Its only a straw man if it was the only thing I was using to try to deflect your attacks. In fact, this comment by you is just as much of a strawman meant to deflect my defenses.

I'd random vote you, sure (though it would be because you never answered the question about the puppy in the last game),

Actually, remember when I said I had a post prepared at work, but forgot to email it to myself to finish it up at home? the answer was in that post... The game was starting to get serious, and I knew I found scum (Darox), so I never got around to answering the question again.

And by the way, the puppy is a wonderful, 80lb lapdog, rambunctious, full of energy, and slightly psychotic, but thats probably why I love her. Shes starting to spend more of her time being a couch potato though, which it is nice to have a little down time, but she would still love to play 24-7, if I could keep up anyways.

but I'm more interested in finding scum than settling personal vendettas.

hmmmm... so you DO have a vendetta with me then

Wait, so you're posting these walls on the job? Quick, what do you do for a living? *gets ready to take notes* [/onlyhalfjoking]

Haha yeah, ever since I first started playing, I'd say 90% of my posts are from work. I'm an engineer, bottom of the totem pole right now... all I do is analyze data. BUT, I get internet access, and an isolated

cell

office to work in, so I post in between data sets in order to break up the day. "Incidental internet use is allowed, so long as everyone gets their work done" <<< official company policy . unfortunately, the project I've been working on since last january (Jan 2008) just got canceled this morning, so I might have to start finding a new job... that might mean less time to post (and no, the project being cancelled had nothing to do with me not getting my work done )

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between a contradiction of ideas of who's Town and fabricating flavor to tack onto existing claims that twists them into being false.

Oh... you mean kinda like raider did with the merchant backstabber scenario?

Joining every wagon in that Newbie game doesn't count as being all over the place?

The point is, you did 1 at a time. There was a clear distinction when you stopped attacking 1 person, and starting attacking someone else.

I admit I have no idea what this means, but something tells me I don't want to know.

FFS = For F*ck sake... at least, thats what I got out of the context freeko used it. I've seen it before, but never knew what it meant until this game.

And here I'd have thought you knew me better by now. I would jokingly talk like I'm bandwagoning someone, but I wouldn't vote someone unless I were serious about it (unless I unvoted in the same post).

Well, I was specifically talking about the seriousness of you wanting a whole big shiny wagon, and not just your vote in particular. I like letting people scum hunt in their own ways (refer to Days 3, 4, and endgame discussion of Newbie 696 for some good reasons why I feel this way...). You wanted a wagon on Korts, and I wanted a better read on korts, thus my jumping on the wagon.

Really... Me? Am I the "him" in question? I don't remember ever saying that.

Uhh... So if my vote on Korts isn't causing you to suspect me right now, then what is? And if it is my vote on korts, then whats scummy about it that can't be construed as opportunism? The supposed backpedaling? Its only backpedaling if you think I'm scum and know korts is town and... wait for it... opportunistically jumped on korts' wagon, before backpedaling away from it...

[Rhinox]

@mod: I really like your game, but it could really be hampering town to not have replacements. Is there not a single person interested in joining this game?

No, nobody is interested in joining this game, as far as I know. I've got it in my sig, and I've posted it a few times in the mini-theme queue.

I could go lobbying for some more replacements. still 2 of them right? I know a couple mods who owe me favors for replacing into their games

Go ahead (it's three, by the way). I'd appreciate it

[Rhinox]

EBWOP: PS: I promise to catch up and respond to everyone later tonight or tomorrow... after my rough day at work, my fiance and I are going to go veg out and catch a movie.

Also Juls, its very cool that you and your husband are both into playing mafia. I wouldn't even bother asking my fiance to try it out. She has little patience, and that doesn't go well with games like this.

[Rhinox]

Promised I would catch up. Fair warning, this is gonna be a big one...

This has caught my attention as well. My actual rolename isn't named. From the look of the comments given by freeko and Vi, they weren't told if they wre masons or neighbours. All there was stated was that they didn't know the other allignment. So if this is the case as well with Raider, Juls and Korts (Is your role name mentioned in your PM or not), then there is a clash with the role PM you've got with those of ours. If two of the three mentioned above have their real role name mentioned, I'm willing to leave this aside. So Juls, Raider and Korts, could you please state if your role name is mentioned in your PM or not?

My roll PM and I don't have a typical role name - just a flavor name and description. I don't see how you can infer that mine did from the question I asked you, and I also don't see why it matters.

And Rhinox, I'd like to know what is more scummier to you: Asking for a role name trade (like freeko did) or 'fishing' for a flavor name (like I did)?

Actually, I find both to be rather scummy. Probably, in a vacuum, I would find freeko's comment scummier, but we aren't in a vacuum. There are contexts to consider, such as freeko's claim, and all other actions.

Rhinox, all the assumptions you have made in post 416, are completely wrong. Me and freeko have completely different roles, so how should I be able to compare it. And based upon the information I have received in my PM, I can tell you that scum don't have a reason to flavor fish names...
But this is one of those times you have to trust someone with their word, so I can understand that you won't accept this piece.

I find this statement worded rather oddly. I didn't really assume anything in 416. But, maybe I can better answer this question as part of an answer to Vi's question:

Actually, we never saw the scum Role PMs, so I don't know if there were falseclaims out there or not.
I have no idea what ClockworkRuse was trying to do though, as Cass pointed out that a name-counter-claim would be highly unlikely.

The point being that I'm really not seeing this.

Lets see if I can better explain with an example... we're playing a generic theme game (I don't want to use this one, so lets say its meerkat manor mafia). All the town roles are meerkats, and there is an sk-predator role. Suppose Early in the game, a townie is forced to claim. He claims townie, and gives a flavor name. sk-predator starts asking, "Hey, uh, are you sure there is no other flavor?"

There are 2 reasons why I can see a player asking for more flavor:

1) player asking for more flavor is town, and wants to compare the flavor in the claiming player's PM to the flavor in his own PM, so as to verify that yeah, this player is probably telling the truth, scum wouldn't have been able to come up with the town flavor without knowing a town PM

-or-

2) player asking for more flavor is scum, and wants to know what flavor is in a townie role PM, so later in the game when he has to fabricate a fake claim, he can include townie flavor to make his claim more believable.

Let me also point out the differences between Meerkat manor mafia, and this game, so my argument isn't strawmanned by "BSG wasn't asking for all flavor, just a role name..."

In meerkat manor mafia, there were 12 meerkat names the mod provided, and all names were used. 8 (or 9, can't remember) were the actual town role names. the other 3 or 4 were included in the scum role PMs, so the scum had safe fake names to use if they had to fake claim. What they didn't have was fake town flavor - only their own scum flavor.

Now snap back over to this game. We know, or at least don't have any reason to assume that scum have safe fake names included in their role PM. So, BSG asks for a flavor name. Why? Same two options as before...

1) BSG wants to compare the flavor name in freeko's and Vi's claim to her own flavor name to see if freeko and Vi's claim is believable (I'm not saying BSG has the same flavor name, I'm saying that she's comparing more the flavor, than the name itself. Does Merchant make sense as a town role, taking into consideration whatever her town role name is?)

-or-

2) BSG is scum, say, a wolf. (Not saying I have any reason to believe all scum are wolves, but then again, I have no reason to believe they aren't). Later in the game, BSG might have to fake claim something to save herself. Without knowing anything about any of the town roles, how would she have any idea of a flavor name to use for her role? Thats why specifically asking for a flavor name is kinda scummy. For a while, scum could only assume sheep were town roles (due to the N0 flavor kill, and Occam mentioned something about sheep on cliffs). Thats why everyone should be suspicious of Korts claiming sheep, regardless of whether or not raider can confirm there are sheep in the game. Now scum also know there are non-sheep town roles, since freeko and Vi are merchant/companion. In other words, before freeko and Vi's flavor names were revealed, scum had no reason to believe there were any town flavor names other than sheep. Now, they have more flexibility in fake claiming later knowing they can come up with something other than sheep.

Now consider BSG's quote above. She flat out denies that she was asking due to option 1. So, its either option 2, or some other role specific option that I can't possibly know since I don't know BSGs role. She asks us to just trust her, knowing full well that in mafia, asking for blind trust is usually reason enough to not give any trust... So, without asking BSG to fully explain herself through a role claim (which I'm not doing, btw), I am considering her asking for a flavor name scummy do to option 2 above. I voted before to get more of a reaction out of BSG. Since discussion on the topic is basically finished until BSG has to claim (and I'm not ready for that), I'm not voting BSG now because I'm not ready to commit to lynching anyone yet.

Why I asked for a flavor name:

I asked, because the claim has changed a lot. First they were masons, then when Vi comes in, it changed to neighbours. Nothing much, as this could be an honest mistake. But then I thought back of MM's role which was cleric. According to the mod, this meant that he was a doc. My role has also a completely different name than usual. This is most likely the case with everybody.
What I do find odd is that one of them claimed merchant, while the other claimed merchant companion, so I'm not sold yet on either claim.

Interesting... If you thought everyone had a non-traditional name, then what made you think that mason/neighbor was anything more than they're description of their role, since the flavor name wouldn't tell what the role can actually do. I guess maybe if you were checking to see if their role HAD a flavor name, or if it just said neighbor or mason, that would fit into option 1) above for why you were asking for a flavor name. I agree that if every town role had a non traditional name, and Vi and freeko's role PMs simply said mason or neighbor, that would be suspicious and possibly point towards the claim being faked.

Uhm... freeko? You were fishing for my role, I was fishing for your flavor name. Two completely different things. In my opinion, what you did is much worse. As I've seen that you want to hear Korts' full claim (What's your reason for that anyway?) I'm really happy with my vote.

I agree that freeko is acting very scummy. Since the masons are unconfirmed, theres no reason to believe that freeko can't be scum. I agree with Juls that ever since Vi replaced in, freeko has been acting like he thinks he's bullet proof. Part of me wants to hold a gun.. er.. a pike rather up to his head right now to see if his confidence holds (that was artistic liscense for me saying I'm considering voting him for his scummy role fishing he's been doing, and his overconfidence he's been displaying since Big Brother Vi (or sister... god, I feel so stupid but i don't think I've ever known which.. do you have a preference as to which pronoun gender we call you by Vi? I'm assuming sister would be the appropriate one since you said 80lbs is almost all of your weight... unless you're a really skinny 12yo boy ) came in and backed him up. However, we've already got all we can get out of pressuring freeko by votes, so I would only vote him now if I was intending to lynch him.

Don't like the votes from Rhinox and freeko against Korts.
Rhinox as he had only good things to say about Korts until Vi pointed something out, which made him suddenly obvscum.
Freeko's reason is just to see if Korts is teeling the truth about the watching, while there's also a different way to check this.

I want everyone to think very carefully and ask themselves this question: Did my vote on Korts really appear to be made with the intention of lynching korts? Vi, look at my votes in mafia 87, raider, you have that newbie game that just finished to look at, juls, do you still have the link to that game we were both in that you replaced out of? Everyone else, I've already linked Meerkat manor mafia. You guys can pretty much look at every vote I've ever made... When I'm ready to lynch someone, I make my intentions known.

'course, that just means the utility of me throwing my vote around like I've been doing up til now has just been shattered, so don't expect me to be doing as much of that for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't necessarily think I've had only good things to say about korts... I just like his playstyle for catching scum. Even if korts is scum, I think the way he's playing will help me recognize other scum.

Will look at the battle between Vi and Rhinox tomorrow. I don't like quote wars...

I wouldn't consider what Vi and I are doing as quote wars... I would say it seems more like a pissing contest to me Seems Vi agrees:

3) More pointless ad hominem and taunting with Rhinox (with the occasional on-topic point) will come later.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure how I can enlighten you anymore then I already have. There is

another

sheep role. I am 100% positive on that. Korts claimed sheep with no counterclaim so I have no reason to not believe his claim. I also think the sheep role is town and thought that as of the start of day 2.

Very interesting comment here... Raider, feel like commenting on your use of the word 'another' here?

I am glad I could humor you. :p My point is that I felt relatively confident that PK was scum. You have said a few things that are still inconsistent but truckloads better than what PK was giving us, thus the confusion. Plus, you have thrown out somethings that I had missed/not thought about (e.g. Korts sheep slip comment). All valid points, I am just now confused as to what I should weight more heavily...PK or you.

At this point, I'm pretty confident in forgetting PK ever existed. He really didn't do much but claim for freeko, then vanish. Its possible it means something that PK didn't elaborate more on his claim when asked, but assuming the masons are not confirmed, then basically it was stupid for him to even come out and say freeko was town. Thus, any analysis of his play/comments can be explained away due to "PK was an idiot" The only thing that makes me wonder is that scum mason-pk would know freeko is town, where town mason-pk would not. The only reason pk would call freeko town, then, is if pk was scum. But wait... "PK was an idiot..." now the observation is unreliable for use as any sort of basis for a lynch...

While I'm thinking about it... @Vi: someone used that "scum are mostly likely to be the 3rd (or 4th) vote on wagons" BS tell in one of my previous games... It was used to get a townie mislynched. I went back through my completed games (well, the ones that were completed at the time) and found that scum were the 3rd or 4th vote on only 2 of every wagon (not just the ones that led to lynch) in my completed games. In post game discussion, players insisted that it was a valid tell, but based on my own experiences and games, I have nothing to suggest that lynching someone because they were the 3rd vote on (almost) every wagon in the game increases the chances of lynching scum. I still have to take a closer look at your other reasons for voting juls, but I sure hope there are better reasons than just this one.

@everyone: It occurs to me that we could all be just talking circles around each other and that the scum have abandoned the game. It's possible but not likely. I think its reasonable to think that 1 or 2 of the people who aren't currently active could be scum. Recall that Occam just "disappeared", it didn't say he was killed. It is possible that there was no nightkill sent in at all. And I do realize there are some other scenarios that would cause this to occur too but I am going to withhold my vote until we get at least 2 replacements who are participating. I don't want to be going down a wrong path just because we are the only people talking.

I don't think now is the time to consider policy lynching inactives, unless we have reason to believe that every active player is town. Considering we've already mislynched once, and if Occam is dead, then a mislynch today could basically put us in LyLo tomorrow.

Congratulations! Don't name your first born Rhinox! (my first born is named after another character name I used before...Juliet will be my second child's name if we have a girl)

Hmm... Rhinox... what a pretty name... hehe

Regarding all the non-game discussion we seem to be having: I actually kind of like it, so long as its not distracting us from the business part of the game. It makes the game seem to have another dimension to it, as I feel like I "know" a little bit who i'm playing with. I just hope it doesn't cause any hurt feelings if things get heated later on. I don't want anything to get personal, so to speak.

I'm counting my replacement in here on YOUR tab, btw.

As you should. However, you should also know I would replace into any of your games without even having to think about it.

Oh, stop.
Why the congratulation, though?

Not so much congrats... I just meant that irregardless of anyones role, you're doing a very good job arguing in this game (unlike in mafia 87 where I said I thought you were scum due to meta and you kinda just folded...)

Actually, we never saw the scum Role PMs, so I don't know if there were falseclaims out there or not.

In meerkat manor mafia, after the rules, the mod posted the 12 meerkat names, and said the ones that weren't used for actual town roles were included in the scum PM's as safe claims. I thought that was very clear, and never really understood everyone's confusion about it, nor the potential for name counter claims. Anyways, I've already covered the rest above...

The absolutely hideous reason for voting freeko, and associated lining up of lynches. The cryptic responses to questioning about the Lunar_Tick wagon. The shoving of words into BSG's mouth regarding the claim request. The being scum.

Ok... lets go through these one by one:

The absolutely hideous reason for voting freeko:

I've already explained my reasoning. Silly me, I thought the countless times freeko said that PK could confirm him, I thought that was because it was actually in freeko's role pm (i.e. I thought freeko's role pm said something like, "you don't know your partner's allignment, but he knows yours"). Thats why I kept asking PK to elaborate more on his role and whether or not it actually said they were confirmed masons (I might as well have been talking to my dog... would have gotten more of a response). After you replaced in, you said you couldn't confirm freeko. I thought that was solid evidence that freeko was lying about his role, in order to seem to be confirmed town. Turns out it was a big misunderstanding. I guess it just proves the point that we should be suspicious of players claiming to be townie over and over again... constantly repeating something doesn't make it true, but it can make the mind think it is.

and associated lining up of lynches:

The only lining up of lynches was because I thought if freeko wasn't lying about his role (and it really did say that pk did know his allignment), then you would have been lying about saying you couldn't confirm freeko. In that situation, if freeko was town, you had to be scum. When i realized that freeko never said the pk could confirm him part was actually part of his role PM, then obviously there was no more lining up of lynches.

The cryptic responses to questioning about the Lunar_Tick wagon

Didn't I already answer for this, or did you not read that part. LT's wagon was a utility wagon. Pretty obviously, it was. My crypic responses were meant to buy some time to get LT to respond the the wagon that grew. If I had answered straightforwardly, it would have been "LT was my random vote, and I'm only keeping my vote here to pressure LT and try to catch scum jumping on the wagon, or ignoring it". Obviously, that would have not only eliminated the utility of my vote, but also blown an opportunity to try to catch scum by letting everyone know what I was looking for... Are you saying you've never voted for/wagoned someone with an intention to get reactions from other players, without intending to lynch the person being wagoned?

The shoving of words into BSG's mouth regarding the claim request

I've already answered for this, and believe I at some questions for you in return. If not, I'll re-ask them now. Take this post into consideration:

I wasn't trying to push an explanation on her, I said why I thought flavor fishing was scummy, and the unfortunate part was that I gave her an out and gave her the answer for why a townie would flavor fish. First I should have asked her why she wanted to know the flavor, waited for her answer, and then explained why I felt flavor fishing was scummy. All I can see is that it was a mistake for me to make while scumhunting, as it pretty much makes any discussion about why BSG was flavor fishing worthless now, but I don't see how it makes me scummy...

... and answer these questions for me:

1) How was I putting words into BSG's mouth?
2) What words was I putting into BSG's mouth?
3) What is scummy about it?

Also, explain in what context was a backpedaling. Yes, I voted korts, then backed away. Explain to me the context of whats so scummy about that.

The being scum.

D'oh! You got me here...

Question @Rhinox, Juls, and raider: Who's suspicious - other than me or freeko?

You're quite paranoid if you think I'm only suspicious of you and freeko. I've clearly expressed suspicions of BSG and Raider in the thread. Korts and Juls I'm still reading, but I wouldn't say I'm not suspicious of them. Then there are the inactives, but I've already given my feelings on them.

I'm going to be honest - maybe it's because I don't have anything to lose but this dancing-around-what-our-roles-are bit is getting old. I'm not asking for a massclaim, but seriously, I'm getting sick of the vague attacks and defenses based on private information.

This sounds an awful lot like asking for a mass claim, while saying you're not asking for a mass claim. You figure you claimed, so everyone else might as well?

Rhinox has said some things that has made me wonder if he is just trying to get anyone lynched. TBH I really wish we had those replacements in. They hold alot of information that could really push the game in the right direction.

What have I said?

Also, what makes you think the replacements have roles that could give us any information we don't already have?



I think this is all... Let me know if I left anything important out

[Rhinox]

Dammit Rhinox! I'll read that tomorrow, I'm tired right now...

hehe... sorry

No, you misunderstand. I don't want to policy lynch. I don't want to lynch at all until we get some replacements in here. I would rather not lynch someone just because they are active. I want to lynch because they are the best lynch. Some of the replacements may be scum. It's kinda like my last game (that SpyreX modded) where we kinda ignored the lurkers and faught amongst all the bold personalities who were all town. We mislynched twice. (BTW, my uber negotiation skills pulled it out for town...the second to last day is a fun read..or it was at least to me).

ok... just checking...

For what its worth, in my last game, there were 4 more active players, and 3 less active players/inactives. There was 1 scum remaining. Someone suggested that it seemed more likely that the 4 of us active players were all town arguing amongst ourselves, and the scum was one of the inactives. Even though we kept discussing everybody and didn't just make it policy, the 3 less actives were all town and the town pretty much lost because of it. And it all started from a simple suggestion, much like your last post.

[Rhinox]

Korts, somehow I missed one of your posts and just happened across it while looking at your posts in isolation:

Unfortunately for you, the defense of "I was testing your reactions" is weak; you commit to being scummy, yet you don't make a case for me to respond to: what did you expect if not to be attacked?

I don't commit to being scummy, because I don't think my vote on you was scummy. The response I was looking for was a response to Vi's post - I felt you'd give a more genuine response with more votes on you.

I also notice a false dilemna in your logic... every active player except for Raider jumped on your wagon that Vi started. You said something to the tune of "Out of all the votes, Rhinox seemed the most opportunistic. Vote: Rhinox". Essentially, its an argument that at least one of me, freeko, juls, and Vi have to be scum. Not the traditional "either 1 or the other" type of false dilemna, but a false dilemna still. Oh wait...

It has some basis and though the implications are minor from this point, coupled with your vote it's more than sufficient for me to put you over Juls as Suspect no. 1.

I was wrong... it does kinda look like a traditional false dilemna.

Either way, I suppose I should take a closer look at juls, since she is the only active player I haven't looked closely at - mainly for what I thought was a town tell in one of her first posts. However, this tell was contradicted in one of her recent posts. This is probably one of the reasons why Vi is trying to peg us as a scum pair.

I did think that the quick growth of the wagon was odd... but it tells me some things... either most of the town is hungry for blood, there really is some basis for the wagon, or there are scum on the wagon. I find it more odd that the player who unvoted and admitted that he didn't think there was much basis for the wagon going to claim/lynch territory (me) is the one everyone is finding scummy for doing so... Korts, do you think there is justification behind the wagon that formed on you?

[Rhinox]

Only I have information that says he should be a townie.

Do tell. Its only polite to share right?

Have you even been reading along, freeko?

Korts claimed sheep. Raider can confirm the presence of 1 single sheep, but not more. Raider believes the sheep role to be town.

Whether or not that is enough for you to take raider and korts at the word is up to you. Personally, I see no reason raider would say that if he were scum and korts was town. I see very little reason for scum-raider to say that to defend scum-korts. So, I believe its most likely that raider is town, and being honest. With that, it seems more likely that korts is town as well, but not confirmed.

I would also say that no more than 1 of you or Vi or scum, and possibly you're both town (although freeko, I wouldn't necessarily call your play today pro-town). Juls and BSG each may or may not be scum, and then there's the issue of the 3 inactives/replacements - assuming 4 total scum in the game, pretty sure that means at least 1 of those 3 has to be scum. All this is of course assuming myself to be town, which I know to be true. This is pretty much my outlook on the game right now, based on all events. Thus, Juls and BSG need closer looks than they've been given so far, and we need to start hearing from the inactives.

[Rhinox]

This makes me VERY uneasy. Which is it, and why?

Maybe I worded that wrong?

"

We Know that scum don't have a fake claim

We have nothing to indicate that scum have a fake claim."

In other words, I was assuming that because there was nothing in the rules about safe claims, that scum didn't have any... then I realized that safe claims could be included in scum role PM's without the town being told about it, but I wouldn't know because I haven't seen a scum role PM. So until there is something to point to the contrary, we have nothing to indicate that scum would have fake claims - thus, role-name fishing is scummy, depending on the context. In related news, if Occam is really dead, in this regard it helps the town that his name/role wasn't revealed, because scum don't get any fake claim information from the nk.

However, this is interesting:

And based upon the information I have received in my PM, I can tell you that scum don't have a reason to flavor fish names...

Is this because you're scum and you have a safe fake name? In my town PM there is nothing to indicate that scum wouldn't have a reason to fish for names...

'Mind if I give your kid a much classier two-letter nickname?

Sure! Go for it

However, that other freeko vote D1 (Page 6) looks like what you tried to pull on Korts just now - big wall about something else, vote someone unrelated, explain shortly afterward. Was that your intention (re: the freeko vote)?

Actually, I found freeko scummy, mostly for the rolefishing I mentioned in my isolation #10. In #11, I explained my vote on the LT wagon and voted freeko for my reasons in #10. In post #12, I further justified why I was voting for freeko. Then look at my post #13 for freeko sort of falling apart and looking even scummier in trying to defend himself against my vote. After that, PK jumped in with the mason claim. So my intentions? I originally voted freeko because of the rolefishing which I found slightly scummy and voteworthy. Sometime between 12 and 13, freeko made me think he was obvscum, and in 13 I definately thought he was scum and wanted him lynched - maybe not instantly, but eventually. Then the mason claim, and you know how it went from there.

Also, sort of off the topic a little, but I still get the feeling that some players might be doubting my explanation for the LT wagon. Instead of trying to explain it again, I'm going to invite you to look at my posts 4 through 10, and see if my questioning of Occam is consistent with my explanation in 11 about the LT wagon.

4) It comes down to WIFOM. Were you really fishing for reactions, or were you interested in Korts' lynch? Did you expect to get called for your baseless vote, or not? What kind of pressure comes from a baseless

What I am learning is as town, I tend to be more relaxed, arrogant, and cyptic when there are no votes on me, but when I get wagoned, I become a little more stressed, humbled, and straightforward. I see some similarities in how korts has been posting most of the game towards the former, so I thought more votes on korts would give us a post more like the latter. And I think it worked - I could absolutely tell a completely different tone in korts post after the wagon than before. I liked what i heard, so I unvoted.

(aside - I'm now coming to the realization that the former playstyle may be directly causing the wagon which leads to the latter playstyle, as evidenced by all 3 of my ongoing games)

Do you think Juls was fishing for reactions as well?

I'm assuming this is still directed at me? I did not think Juls was fishing for reactions. in her #27, I found her reasons for voting korts to be slightly vague. It seemed she really wanted to be suspicious of the masons, but instead decided to wagon korts. I think you mentioned something like that in 426, so I didn't speak up about it. Whats odd with that is that she wasn't convinced of the masons (aka Vi), but then followed Vi's lead to vote korts. She also didn't mention my vote at all in that post, which was odd. In 28, she was able to list 2 of her own independant reasons for voting korts, as well as the Vi case. Odd now is that she notes my brevity in voting korts, but korts had to point it out first. This paragraph:

Well since the wagon appears to have deteriorated, I wanted to try to put a little pressure on Korts for his statements and see how he would react. I knew your scumbuddy merchant would hop on the wagon and an L-2 would be sufficient pressure for Korts to at least explain some of his actions. I did think you had a good catch and I wanted to see what his explanation would be.

On paper seems exactly like my explanation (minus the part about knowing freeko would jump on the wagon) - but I found it odd because it was after I made my explanation and unvoted. I don't know if this is an honest reason, or a convenient excuse - juls couldn't be called on it without me being called on it as well. Likewise, I can't call Juls on it without looking like a hypocrite. But I felt I didn't need to because you had it covered in 426/445.

--------------------

I do remember LT 66 now that you point it out, but I interpretted it as more of a joke. That being said, looking back at LT's posts, I see they are a bit more horrendus than I originally interpretted them. So, I hope we get a replacement for LT before deadline...

--------------------

Not quite. I'm sick of the airs of mystery around the sheep and the other sheep and the shepherd and the merchants and the role-given information about safeclaims(?) and the lions and tigers and bears (oh my!) and so forth. It's getting annoying quickly.
At the same time, that sounds like a personal problem I can get over. But I still like complaining, because, well, complaining. Having already claimed just adds a twinge of bitterness to it~

I can understand your frustration. I think you have mostly your merchant partner to claim for the fishing. I also don't like all the "I have role information that tells me

[something]

but I don't want to fully claim so you'll just have to trust me"... but once that cat's out of the bag, you kinda have to force some kind of elaboration. I have been curiously humoring the idea of a massclaim in my head... everything I've learned about mafia tells me they're no good until at least LyLo, and even then, they're limited in utility (each time I've had someone argue for a mass claim at LyLo, that person was scum (and Tarhalindur )). However, in this particular game, the town knows there are no vanilla rolls... might make it difficult for scum to fabricate a believeable fake claim. On the other hand, with everything and anything as a possibility, scum could claim whatever they want and the chances of a counter are reduced. Also, there may be town roles that sound completely crazy and way out in left field, but are actually town. So I still think it would be better to not mass claim, which includes dropping not so subtle role information around so liberally, but given the way the game is going, I can't help but humor the idea. It seems like we're going to get to mass claim eventually before this is all said and done.

So what's the tell?

The way she talked about Occam immediately after day began, like she knew for a fact that occam wasn't really dead. I first thought that mafia would know for sure if Occam was really dead or not, but I decided that it would probably be better for the mafia to let the town think that Occam was the target so the town won't get any information from the nk being prevented. (hypothetically, if a doc protected someone, and Occam isn't dead, then the doc probably had a lucky protect and that basically confirms someone). On the other side, if Juls was town, she could have role info herself which could give her information about Occam's fate. I'm not going to speculate into which roles those could be, but its not exactly rocket science to guess...

Since then, Juls has said some things that makes me think that she doesn't know whether Occam is really alive or not, such as a comment similar to "If Occam is really dead...". Then I started thinking that it would be in the mafia's best interest to cloud over the Occam issue moreso than it already is, by making us think he might be alive still, if he really was the NK target. Also, Juls explanation about Occam is that he might be out doing whatever his role allows him to do to confirm the masons. If Juls really knew Occam was still alive doing this, she wouldn't be trying to lynch the masons - she would want Occam to return with his results. I didn't bring this up until now because I didn't want to point out that I thought Juls might be giving off power role tells, but as she's contradicted what originally gave me the feeling, I now have a couple questions:

1)Juls, do you know for sure either way if Occam is alive or dead?
2)Regardless of what you know for sure, if you thought Occam might be out confirming one of the masons today, why did you spend a lot of time trying to lynch one of them?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't believe I'm going to say this right now, but freeko quoted something I find pretty interesting, and overlooked aparently...

Without quoting It said 2. One of which was killed off in the opening sceene, for those that dont remember it was revealed as a sheep. So yes, there should be one other sheep.

This makes me doubt your claim a little. I doubt that the opening flavor kill has anything to do with your role - if it does, than this is a new level of bastard moddery I haven't seen before... I think more likely that if you know for sure there are 2 sheep, and korts is one, than one of the inactives is probably the other. Do you think that is a more likely scenario than "the second sheep referenced in your role was probably the mod"?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would be alot faster at reading up, if you didn't fill up every page to the rim.

Me + Vi = Wall-building Machine! We can put china to shame

[Rhinox]

I didn't read Rhinox 514... Anything worth noting in particular?

If you're going to lock in on lynching me, I'd at least hope you'd read everything I had to say before turning in for the night... how do I know you haven't ignored some of my other similar posts as well? You've made it abundantly clear that you dilike reading large posts... To me, that would signify not caring about the strength of the case and just wanting blood... and that's disheartening and distracting if I'm meant to lean towards you being more likely town due to the sheep situation between you and raider.

[Rhinox]

Don't take this the wrong way, I will read it, but I'm just tired now and I've spent the last two or three hours catching up in games. I will read it later and see if there's anything to comment on.

I know... I'm sure you will... but you've already responded to one of my preveious posts with an "meh, nothing interesting"... just seems to me that you've already resigned to your belief that I'm scum and don't really care what I have to say anymore.

[Rhinox]

Lets not get sidetracked... All the daykilling is a joke, and Vi doesn't like being called VI because being a village idiot is not something to be proud of...

[Rhinox]

1) I don't know anything for sure. It is purely speculation. I am actually kinda excited because I want to see if I am right. Trust me, if I am, it would be the first time I was right about anything playing this game (mafia in general). If you watch the show Lost you might get what I am saying. I have had about 5,000 theories over the course of that show. So far, I am 0 for 5000. I don't have the greatest track record on these things.

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I just want to say one thing about the bulk of your post - in my last game, I said something to the effect of not being confident in my scumhunting ability. Because of that, when I tried to make a case on the player who was the remaining scum, the town also didn't have any faith in my case because I already said I was bad at catching scum. Because of this, the town lost, basically. Similarly, you telling me you've never been right about anything in mafia so far is making me doubt the accuracy of your cases and suspicions.

2) I am not going to rely on my theory to change how I play the game. If we went through the day and gave Vi/freeko a pass and then Occam didn't come back then where would be? I know I have said otherwise while targetting freeko that they are a scum pair but my honest feelings is that one of them are scum and one of them are town. Freeko makes me want to go nuts OMGUSing him, but I am really trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I have withdrawn my vote for now on both of them. If you took the mason claim completely out of the picture, as if it never happened, I would be voting freeko.

I understand what you're saying, but my philosophy on how I play in situations like this is a little different. We can assume there are probably 3 or 4 scum in the game - none have been found. Even if 1 or both of Vi or freeko are scum, there is still at least 1 other scum to find. If there is a chance we can learn something about Vi or Freeko without having to resort to killing one of them, then its better to dedicate more time to finding the other scum. My philosophy would change if it were LyLo, or if there were only 1 scum remaining.


@BSG: do you still exist? Anything you want to comment on in 514? specifically, some clarification on this would be nice:

And based upon the information I have received in my PM, I can tell you that scum don't have a reason to flavor fish names...

@Korts: Regarding the BS inside information attack, you're using some pretty bad logic there... You're assuming that by saying something hypothetically means that I have inside information and know it to be true. Its no different from players using phrases like "

if

player A is town", or, "I'm not ready to hammer yet

in case

its a mislynch". Usually, its not called out as a leak of inside information unless the player leaves out the

if

either subconsciously or if the player thinks its assumed. (for example, you saying "I can't imagine sheep as docs" is a slip of inside information. )

Speaking of that comment, I'm just wondering... If you thought that all town were sheep (or had no reason to believe they weren't), what logic did you use to decide that a sheep couldn't be a doc/cleric? What you basically said is "I think all the town are sheep, and I don't think a sheep could be a doc, so I don't think the town even has a doc."

[Rhinox]

You were speculating about information that was or could have been given to scum; I don't really see how there would be any basis to that kind of speculation unless you are scum yourself. There is also a difference between speculating on town information and scum information because town (something you are or are pretending to be) would know about some of the information a townie recieves in PM and nothing about what scum get.

But you're looking at my comment in a vacuum without considering the context... I was justifying why I think fishing for role names in this game is possibly scummy - because if scum don't have safe fake names, then fishing for role names helps scum fabricate believeable fake claims later by knowing the types of role names that town players have.

I was just pointing out specifically that I don't know for sure whether or not scum have a fake name, because even though I felt that would have been implied, a lot of times when I think something is implied, such as when players are referring to another player as hypothetically town, when they don't use the "if" its often assumed that it was a slip of inside information. Do you not agree it would have been worse if I just would have said "scum don't have safe fake names", as that would imply I know exactly what is in a scum role PM? Or are you trying to argue that my suspicion of BSG rolename fishing is invalid because we don't know whether or not scum have safe fake names? I hope its not the latter, because I think this is a potentially serious issue, and we should assume that scum don't have fake claims to use until we have reason to believe otherwise.

I also think this issue might be cleared up by BSG explaining how she knows "for a fact" that scum don't have to fish for flavor names, as I think that implies more knowledge of inside information than I have shown...

Where cleric is a rolename and not a role.

Arguing semantics doesn't change the question... What made you think a sheep couldn't be a

cleric

, assuming you thought all town roles were sheep (also, assuming we had absolutely no idea what exactly a cleric was in this game)?

And especially since I believe that you are against setup speculation in general, this is a strange thing for you to say.

I think you'll agree that this was not even close to setup speculation, considering the context that I was justifying why I felt BSG was suspicious for role name fishing.

Ugh. You don't mean to imply that every town PM should contain the same things? And what importance is there in emphasising that your PM is town in particular?

Of course not... but I can't imagine any town role being "you know that scum don't have to fish for flavor name because..." nor can I even make up a reason for how a town role would know that. I think BSG should be able to explain how she knows that without giving away her role. As far as emphasizing the town part of my role PM, this is just another example of making sure nothing is left to interpretation by leaving anything in implications. I've learned that most of the time when I think something is implied, its not.

You are one of two things:
1) scum-mason
2) town-mason

Either way,scum already know which you are. So killing PK only helps us (the town) trust you. It doesn't change the way scum thinks of you.

I'm glad you brought this up... I forgot I had a comment about this same post, that I cut from one of my previous posts shortly after this comment was made.

Juls, I believe, was arguing that we should lynch PK, and that by doing so, we would be better able to trust freeko. I think this was when we all thought PK could confirm freeko.

I remember thinking that i didn't like the idea of lynching PK to be able to trust freeko - because if PK's death even would have confirmed freeko as town (IMO the only way that happens is if PK is town-mason anyways), then that pretty much means freeko would be nked anyways.

I also remember not liking the second part of the justification: "Either way,scum already know which you are. ... It doesn't change the way scum thinks of you." I think that was in response to freeko commenting about being nked for sure once PK's death confirms him as town. I didn't like it because scum know everyone who's not part of their group, but town players only become the obvnk when scum don't think ther is a chance they can get them mislynched.

I think I cut this from one of my previous posts because I was still of the mindset that I though juls was incinuating a town power role like doc, but didn't want to bring to everyone's attention the potential tell. Specifically, (since Juls answered my questions) I thought she was suspecting Occam to still be alive because she was a doc who protected him, and I though she might be hinting at being able to protect freeko from obvious death once he was "confirmed". I feel comfortable saying this now because I no longer believe this to be the case, and it sort of explains why I have been shying away from accusations on Juls for most of today.

[Rhinox]

(that and the Doctor was lynched D1).

the

doctor??

Also, I think its pretty clear, for more than just flavor reasons, that MM was a non-alligned neutral party. Were he a strictly town doc, he should have fully claimed to prevent us from lynching him, since its better for a town PR to get nked rather than lynched. I had this conversation with him, and he ignored it out of self-preservation (so he wouldn't be nked). Assuming he was neutral, there is no difference to his wincon whether he's lynched or nked, and assuming he didn't really care what happened to the town, or what was in the town's best interest, that explains why he acted out of self preservation by not full claiming, rather than doing what was best for the town.

I agree with you about Occam though... most likely situation is he's dead, but until we get a role reveal, or until another player disappears in a similar manner, we can't rule out the possibility that he could return.

I also kinda agree with this:

While I agree freeko is acting very anti-town, I must concede that Vi's "confirmation" of freeko is every bit as, if not even more, credible as yours of korts.

...except for 1 thing... Raider has said he more likely believes a "sheep" to be town. Vi can confirm that freeko is his neighbor, but has no reason to believe that he is more likely town than scum.

That being said, I think bad lynch choices for today are {Raider, Korts, Vi, Freeko, (me)}, leaving {BSG, Juls, Tony, afatchic, Megaflareon} as much better choices for consideration today. I'm expecially concerned about BSG's disappearance. Mf didn't give us much to work with today, but we can go back and look at RS for anything. I like Tony's contributions so far, but I'm still looking for more of a "This is who i think is scum..." and why type of post. I'm expecting some good participation coming from afatchic - we've never played before, but I've heard of the name, so that means he must have been here a while, and active. Juls is active and participating, so any concerns here should be able to be answered for.

[Rhinox]

See, this is what I was asking for. Don't leave me hanging to make up my own assumptions

How much of the thread have you read so far? what page are you on?

[Rhinox]

ok... so how did you manage to read the entire thread and not know MMs role? Is this just an isolated instance of overlooking a point, or did you just skim the whole thread?

[Rhinox]

Anyway, Rhinox, I got that information due to my role. And I'd be very surprised if you and I have the same role. Have you caught any large fishes yet?

No, but I'm working on catching a penguin

But in all seriousness, I'm not role fishing. I'm not asking you for your role. I'm asking you to try to clarify how you know scum don't have to name fish without revealing your role. If you can't do that, then fine, but don't get upset if I don't just trust your word. For example, I have role information that says I'm town and shouldn't be lynched, but that doesn't mean that just because I say its so doesn't mean you're all just going to trust me.

@Raider: How would your confirmation of korts being a sheep change if we assumed Occam was a sheep? I'm thinking back to this comment:

I would have picked the cliff myself.

I picture sheep walking on cliffsides.

It doesn't make much of a difference in the long run because we had no info to base our choice on anyways. Seems like most people would rather have had the tree based on post-choice comments - it's just a principle thing, that's all.

This seems to imply that Occam's role is/was also a sheep - otherwise why would he picture sheep walking on cliffsides? Can Korts and Occam (and the mod) all be sheep and your role still make sense?

[Rhinox]

Mod-reminder: NPC's are never more than flavor.

Read: Sheep claim is not a counter to Korts, if we're to believe raider knows there's only 2 sheep in the game.

This... sort of. So, Jebus is not the second sheep, but Occam could be. So another sheep claiming now could still be a counter to korts.

Freeko, if we make it all the way to deadline and I can't come to a distinct conclusion of a best choice between the 5 players I listed earlier, I will be voting for you.

[Rhinox]

yay! a game full of active players.

still haven't heard from afatchic though...

He's been active. He pm'd me earlier saying that for some reason he couldn't post. He should be okay soon, though.

[Rhinox]

Vi, what is your purpose in stating that Rhinox is indeed obvscum if you go and vote Juls?

It's a running gag; pay no mind.

I'm always obvscum hehe.

So for the record, do you find Korts suspicious?

I'm up in the air. I'm putting a lot of weight right now Raider supporting his sheep claim, even though it doesn't prove anything. My thinking is that either they're both scum, or raider is definately more town for defending korts with role information. Korts still could be scum, but raider says he believes the sheep to be town. I believe the latter scenario is more likely, but...

I might be feeling a little conflicted because korts is voting for me, for what I feel like are crap reasons. I also don't like his explanation about a sheep not being able to be a cleric. If all the town were sheep, I couldn't see a sheep irl being anything, but this is just a game, and a sheep can be anything the mod says it is. I find this a very weak reason at best, and at worst seems like a way to retroactively defend lynching MM. It also seems his last vote on freeko was more of just a feeler to see if anyone would follow to lynch freeko for being... well, freeko.

So reading the rest of 514, I have no idea why you're not voting Juls. Well?

She is on my list of 5 I feel we should be looking at very hard today, but I haven't come to a decision yet. I'm still hoping to hear more from BSG, and there are 3 newer players that I still need to get a read on. I'm in no hurry to end the day, and I did say I wouldn't be throwing my vote around as much.


also, Vi, curse you for making me feel obligated to include post numbers in my quote boxes... grrr.

[Rhinox]

So Rhinox, you say you're up in the air about Korts, Juls, BSG, and three other players. Are you even going in some direction with this game?

I'll know where I'm going once I get there

I actually think I've done a pretty good job being transparent lately in where I think focus should be, and I think I've been exploring where I said I would be exploring. I don't think its scummy to not know what I expect to be the end result as of right now. I think at least one of Juls, BSG, Tony, afatchic, and tubby have to be scum... 3 of them I'm still in the feeling out stage, I'm waiting for some more participation from BSG, and also waiting for Juls to return and join back in the conversations.

What do you think of his unvote, then?

Well, that was part of my conclusion about his vote being a feeler. Kinda like he was throwing a line out there to see who else would jump on in his post 81. Nobody did. The next 4 posts he was basically saying the same thing. Freeko never changed his stance, so the unvote doesn't seem to be justified - it seems like, well nobody wants to lynch freeko, so lets just drop it and go back to Rhinox.

Question for Korts though... What makes having strong convictions a town tell?

im in ur mafiascum, revolutionizin ur notation

*sigh* Can't you give me one post where I don't end up ROFLing?

[Rhinox]

Question for Korts though... What makes having strong convictions a town tell?

As the wagon on him grows simply for the reason that he's pushing bullshit points, freekoscum I'd expect to back off. Funnily enough he's done that, in a way, but not while my vote was there.

If that were true though, then all scum would have to do to seem town is to have strong convictions about someone else being scum, without even having a good reason, and then never back off. In other words, its wifom to say you would expect scum to back off, because then all scum have to do to look town is to not back off.

But I also find freeko's last post about going to bark up another tree to be a little odd... but you did ask him to not have confirmation bias on you, and I always like when players continue to scum hunt even after they think they found scum, so I'm certainly not going to sit here and say its scummy for him to back off now.

[Rhinox]

I don't get all the speculation about the shepherd role. Flavorwise, I guess it does make sense that there would be a shepherd to go along with sheep, but how does it help us any to talk about a shepherd? Ok, so I can see how raider being shepherd would make sense since he knows about the sheep. Raider says he's not shepherd though... so what other roles could I imagine would know about sheep without being a shepherd? Raider the Border Collie? Raider the wolf?

Also, I dislike how raider continues to insist that korts is the only living sheep. Raider says his role can confirm the presence of 2 sheep. The N0 kill was strictly flavor. Korts is the only claimed sheep. Anybody else want to claim sheep? there should be another... I think it makes the most sense for Occam to be the other sheep - actually, if nobody else alive is the second sheep, either Occam was the second sheep, or raider is lying. How does speculating about Occam being a shepherd help us in any way. Why would shepherd-occam be trying to locate the sheep, and how would that relate to his role, when the role he implied having seemed to be more of an investigative type role, regarding the claimed neighbors?

If you guys are gonna speculate, at least do it right. Don't just shout something out without any support for it whatsoever, and without taking into account the information we actually know thats not speculation.

[Rhinox]

I don't think a mass claim is necessary - at least not right now. If we're going to have claims, it should come naturally based on who we think is scum and want lynched. Declaring mass claim time just means everybody starts shouting out roles and flavor, and scum have a candy store of information to choose from when fabricating their fake claims. Although, and I think I said this earlier, I'm very interested to hear the types of fake claims we would be getting, knowing that scum can't take the easy way out and claim VT.

[Rhinox]

Which is why ORDERLY massclaiming is cool. If you'll take Tarhalindur's word for it, anyway.

Right... in theory, all good. But since scum are part of the town, the order is also open to manipulation. Much better for only people who are about to be lynched to claim. I'm still undecided on LyLo Massclaims, since the only player I've ever seen insisting they are good was scum... twice, and claims at LyLo are unverifiable anyways.

Because lynching the claimed and uncountered neighbor(s?) is obviously the right play. If I am not scum then Vi obviously is? Thats certainly the scum path to victory this game.

I see you have no interest in scumhunting, but then neither does anyone else in this game it seems.

*SLAP ACROSS THE FACE* Wake up and get with the program, man. Just because no one can follow your logic and will agree to lynch Korts does not mean nobody is scum hunting. You are the one who is not scum hunting, you're just running around shouting baseless accusations and asking for everybody to claim.

No it just shows that there are exactly 0 people interested in actually playing this game.

No, it shows that there are exactly 0 people who are willing to follow around the psychotic merchant. You have not made a cohesive case against korts. Your accusations are based on assumptions that have to be true in order for your case to hold any water at all. Take away the assumptions, and all you have is speculation. It also doesn't help that you dropped your case on korts to go after raider, and now you're voting BSG - not to mention the post where you just about voted everyone. So its pretty hard to take you serious when you say you're sure someone is scum, when your current play and voting pattern indicates to me that you aren't so sure as you're insisting.

@afatchic: any luck on getting caught up? we're getting close to deadline, so it would be nice to get some game related info from you before we have to end the day.

@Tony: what was your purpose for fake claiming sheep?

@BSG: Please exist.

@tubby: are you voting for freeko because you think he's scum, or for some other reason?

@Juls: any luck regarding this comment:

I am willing to look elsewhere and am trying to process everything carefully...I just haven't seen anything yet.

[Rhinox]

@Tony: what was your purpose for fake claiming sheep?

I wasn't. The part of taking it back was a joke.

Ok Im confused by this. Why would you joke about that?

Because of my epiphany about there might being someone with an anti-sheep agenda.

Ok Cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

@Rhinox,

i am voting freeko because i believe his wild posting and accusation are a smoke scree very anti town, I have seen nothing of value come from him yet, if he is town is fail, but i believe him clever scum

ok... I was only asking because it seemed you wanted to lynch freeko more out of utility, and not because you thought he was scum. But I also see you laid out a nice case in 655.

I will say this. I no longer have any desire to play this game. I will replace out if I last the day. I dont want to waste my time arguing with tubby over whats more retarded, his play or his self.

Replace out now. I'm sick of your attitude, and your unhelpfulness. And comments like this really piss me off:

For the record I am the ONLY person to be actively playing this game the entire time so far.

Who the fuck do you think you are?

This is the problem. Lynching me when you know I am MUCH more likely to be town than scum, is absolutely retarded.

We DON'T know you are any more likely to be town than scum, let alone MUCH more likely. Your insistance doesn't prove anything.

Its also the scum's plan to win the game. This I am certain of.

How would you be certain of the scum's plan unless you were scum yourself?

Freeko, the only thing you're doing right now is preventing scum hunting, because anybody could vote you right now and not look scummy for doing it. If you were trying to be pro-town, make cohesive cases, cut the sarcasm and crappy analogies, and stopped insulting everybody, then there would be no reason to find you scummy, and it would be easy to find scum if the "master plan" was to force your mislynch, and then Vi's. The way you're playing, you're either

a)paranoid
b)an asshole
c)scum
d)any and all of the above

Setting 2 on the Massclaim Machine is "random", which takes care of this reservation. Dice tags are wonderful for this.

yeah... that makes a mass claim fair for everybody. I want a massclaim to be beneficial to the town, and detrimental to the scum. Thats why I want players I think are scummiest to claim first. One way of doing that is through normal playing and voting someone to L-1. Rinse and repeat if it is a believeable claim.

How did the whole mass claim thing start? I know I said something about it to freeko but I never said we should mass claim. I just meant that at the rate we are going it is going to turn into that before long.

pretty sure we're just talking hypothetically right now.

Mod: if we need to get replacements for freeko, BSG, and/or afatchic, would we be able to extend the deadline to accomodate?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LT PbPA:

0:

I find it really annoying that you guys are making so much of a fuss about a clearly random, at least for now, choice. Even though it is day one, surely we can find something better to talk about.

Didn't random vote (personal pet peeve of mine). expressed annoyance over the random choice, and said we could find something better to talk about, without suggesting an alternative to talk about. This post basically contains no real content at all - LT was trying to stop 1 line of conversation (preventing conversation is anti-town), while not suggesting anything better to talk about.

1:

@Monkeyman: You seem to be confusing me with Rogue Shenanigans. Maybe.

Another contentless post.

2:

@Monkeyman: Defending the move is just as bad as doing it, if not more so. Like Prom King said, it's unlikely scum would actully choose a path this early, but having someone defend the tactics worries me.

Your whole post and vote assumes that the choice has any kind of bearing on the game. You are very far from being sure of your claims, at least not close enough to make any kind of conclusion and subsequently vote on it. And if you are sure of your claims (and it seems that you are), then you are highly suspicious.

Also I don't like the way you use the word "tactics" in your post, when there was clearly no under-hand mafia scheme but rather a random choice.

Had to think about the broken quote tags. I believe the LT quote in this post was originally lots in the site crash, and I think the rest of the post was MM's response. LT is clearly playing both sides here. On one hand, he says he thinks the choice was random. Then he uses WIFOM reasoning to explain why scum wouldn't make the choice. Finally, he says he's worried about someone defending the choice - which is a way of throwing suspicion both at RS for making the choice, as well as anybody who expressed that the choice didn't matter and didn't find RS scummy for making it.

3:

The only way you could know if there was a scheme or if it was random choice is if you were scum, a townie would not know the difference.

Or maybe the mod told me.

I still assume this was a joke. But, its not pro-town, helpful, or content of any kind.

4:

It there more of a reason for your [MM's] vote then post 66?

What reason is there in post 66?

Post 66 was LT's post #3. i'm assuming raider was asking MM to justify his vote. This comment by LT might be a bit of paranoia - LT seems to think that raider thought post 66 was a good reason for a vote, when its clear (at least to me) that raider was questioning MM because 66 wasn't a good reason and he wanted to know if MM had any better reasons.

After this, LT disapeared and was eventually replaced by afatchic. afatchic has been in for a week now, and how only made 2 posts promising to catch up as quickly as possible. We're less than a week away from deadline now. A week is more than enough time to read the thread, and even if it weren't, a town player should be trying to participate as much as possible to give some input before deadline, and try to catch up on the fly. I get the feeling afatchic is just trying to stall, hope we lynch freeko, and get to the next day without participating at all. Combined with LT's horrible play, I'm wondering if afatchic wouldn't be a bad lynch today. What do you guys think?

Look back at BSG: I want to her exist more, but looking back at her posts, I'm no longer sure she would be a good lynch choice. Nothing up to asking freeko for his flavor name really stuck out to me. While I think asking for flavor is scummy, I think what BSG was doing was checking to see if mason or neighbor was the actual role name in the PM, or if there was an alternate flavor name. BSG explained how MM didn't have a traditional role name, and neither did she. So If Vi and freeko claimed that mason or neighbor was actually what was listed in their PM's, that would indicate they were both lying. I got that feeling from this post:

@Korts
I asked, because the claim has changed a lot. First they were masons, then when Vi comes in, it changed to neighbours. Nothing much, as this could be an honest mistake. But then I thought back of MM's role which was cleric. According to the mod, this meant that he was a doc. My role has also a completely different name than usual. This is most likely the case with everybody.
What I do find odd is that one of them claimed merchant, while the other claimed merchant companion, so I'm not sold yet on either claim.

[Rhinox]

finished read on vi/pk

vi is town. I have been in enough games with vi to notice viscum and vitown this looks like vitown to me.

Can I ask you how many times you've played with Vi, and the how many of the games were vi-scum? how many were vi-town?

[Rhinox]

games i was in with vi

mini 669- vi=scum, tubby=townie result =mod abandoned
newbie 664 vi=townie,tubby=scum result mod cancelled due to wreckage {mis comunication with replacements}
xyl's relative chaos vi= townie, tubby =scum group 2 result scum group 1 {i made it to end game then botched it}

I ask because I also think I have a pretty good meta on Vi based on past games:

Newbie 645 - I was scum, Vi was town
Mini 644 - Both were town
Mafia 87 - I was town, Vi was scum

The only combination I'm missing is where we're both scum. Maybe then I can really get inside Vi's head

Anyways, I can't call Vi town based on my meta, so I find it a little odd for you to so strongly call vi town. What I can tell from this game compared to my other 3 is that Vi isn't playing quite exactly how I would expect Vi-town to play, but I don't see many similarities with how vi-scum played in mafia 87 either (although, that doesn't mean as much because players are more likely to adjust how they play as scum, rather than town, especially after

someone

pegged vi as scum in mafia 87 solely because of meta .

Really though, what I've decided is that my meta of Vi isn't going to help me determine allignment in this game. Can you tell me what parts of Vi's play in this game are consistent with your town meta of Vi?

@freeko:

What makes you assume that tubby only first started to examine Vi at 9:52? What makes you think he only took 13 minutes to read Vi?

[Rhinox]

I actually didnt know you (or anyone) could do that. I learned something just now. Though what good is reading someons posts if you dont also see the context with which they are made? Seems like a great way to make an excuse for misinterpreting something.

Like where you point out my response to korts and calilng it a wifom trap. Completely wrong. I was full well convinced that either myself or PK were going to be nk'd at night at that point. I now realized what the scum plan would most likely be after that. Suffice to say you are fitting into what I believe that plan to be.

My endgoal? Scumhunt, since 5(maybe up to 7) of us actually played for the first 3 weeks of the game day, seems like there is a little catching up to do. So what If I make myself into something of a "red herring" I am done with this game no matter what. More on that later.

Lastly, I dont know.

I do know that this game is a waste of my time. So I dont even care if I am lynched at this point. Im leaving the game irreguardless of how the game day plays out. Since I personally am beyond frustrated with this game and its lack of play. I will at least play the game day out. Its god damn pathetic that the scum will most likely win this game because there will be like 4 posts made by the entirety of the game after I am gone. I even just used the silly search to realize how many people in this game have done absolutely NOTHING in the game.

ty;dr

don't let the door hit ya on the ass on the way out.

[Rhinox]

Korts, don't you think you should decide now so somebody can claim before deadline and we don't end up making a rushed decision?

vote: afatchic

Reasons:

-4 players I said shouldn't be good lynches today: {korts, raider, Vi, freeko}, but freeko would get my defacto deadline choice if no other choice seems better
-I don't think I should be lynched, obv.
-despite BSG's disappearance, I have re-convinced myself that she isn't scummy, despite the flavor fishing.
-Tony and tubby have been contributing rather nicely lately.
-I don't really see anything too scummy after re-reading Juls. I don't even remember why korts finds juls scummy. As far as I know, the only reason korts finds me scummy is because of my earlier vote on him. I'm disappointed that korts doesn't seem to be giving this game much attention. He hasn't really done anything since deciding I was scum. Korts, please outline why you think me and juls are good lynch choices.
-LT's play while he was beyond horrible. afatchic hasn't contributed at all since replacing in. I get the feeling afatchic is just sitting by waiting for the game to get to deadline without contributing. He confirmed into a new game on tuesday, and his posting frequency since joining the site is nearly 9 posts per day. Deadline games take priority, and he's posted in 4 other games since last posting here.

As I've been saying for a while, freeko will be my deadline lynch choice if afatchic isn't lynched, or if there is no other convincing case on anybody else.

[Rhinox]

So.... How are we going to get at least 6 out of us 8 active players on the same page to lynch someone in the next 2 days? To be ideal, we need a consensus like yesterday in order to analyze a claim and be able to consider another option if necessary.

Korts, I agree with you that freeko is not a good play, dispite his abrasiveness. But, if it comes down to deadline, is a freeko lynch better than a no lynch?

[Rhinox]

vi i think i see why you want juls lynched,,

reading rihnox next

Why don't you humor us and tell us why you think Vi wants Juls lynched. Also, can you tell us if you agree, disagree, or are indifferent with that reason.

I was willing to let your "Vi is town" conclusion slide for meta reasons, but you have to start providing something to support your conclusions.

[Rhinox]

kinda like a doctor's visit only no shots and

no lollypops

,, mmkay?

.....

[Rhinox]

Aside from being around and not posting in this game and voting for freeko...is there anything else on BSG? I read her the other day and I didn't feel like she was scum but maybe she has just lost interest in the game.

This.

Huh, I didn't see that. For what it's worth I don't agree with the premise of the lynch at all--"hey look fatty hasn't caught up yet let's lynch him" seems to be the train of thought--I would be on afatchic's wagon in lieu of any more favorable lynch simply because he's one of the players who aren't bad play (where bad play is along the freeko/Vi and the raider/Korts axes).

Not This. Maybe you should go look back at my post where I voted for afatchic and see that it wasn't only because he hasn't caught up yet. Also, I think you're being a little hypocritical. How are the reasons stated for voting afatchic now worse than your reasons for saying you would vote him ("He's not one of the players I don't want to see lynched.")? Your reason doesn't sound like a reason at all - more like an excuse to be able to jump on the wagon, while calling the other people voting for him scummy for their votes/reasons.

[Rhinox]

raiders vote puts afatchic at L-1. I would like to see a claim from afatchic soon.

Also, freeko is at L-2.

I've seen too many times in my few games players "didn't realize" it was L-1 and place an "accidental" or "unintended" hammer, so... everybody should know now.

[Rhinox]

Gosh i have such a good role, i really don't wanna have to claim it.

doesn't seem like you have much of a choice right now... My guess is you're just having trouble coming up with a good fake claim. Claim or die time. Everybody else, if he doesn't claim by deadline, someone better hammer his scum ass

[Rhinox]

Well... I step away for a minute and all hell brakes loose.

Firstly, thoughts on afatchic... Has scum EVER had lynch immunity - even 1-shot lynch immunity? It seems horrible for the town. We find scum and can't lynch him. If he's alive tomorrow, do we try to lynch him again, knowing we might waste another lynch? No, I think he is probably town with lynch immunity, or maybe even 1-shot lynch immunity. Could he be an sk with lynch or 1-shot lynch immunity? Either way scum have to kill him. Even if he's not 100% confirmed town, nobody can lynch him. I'm certainly not going to waste any more lynches trying to lynch an unlynchable player.

Another thing to consider - if he's scum, his scum partners would know he had lynch immunity. I'm thinking back to the LT wagon and wondering now if it was growing so quickly because scum were trying to get a majority vote on LT to force a no lynch? However, nobody wanted to lynch Lt or afatchic today, until very late in the day - I think that also points to afatchic being either town or superstrong-sk.

On the watch subject, I think Raider is a bad choice. Raider is connected to korts due to the sheep claim. I would rather see someone removed from the situation be the watch. However, I don't think Korts was lying about the watch anyways. I mean, think about it... why would scum lie about the watch, knowing that someone else would probably watch the next night and know he was lying? Unless another scum watches again. I know its safe for me to watch because I know my allignment. I'd be comfortable with BSG watching, but there is no way of knowing if she'll be around to make the choice. I don't want either freeko or Vi watching. I think afatchic shouldn't watch due to the liklihood he will be killed and we won't get anything from him tomorrow. I'm iffy about juls and tubby - we're getting to a situation where due to the process of elimination, there is a higher probability that 1 or both of them are scum. Tony is in that group too, but I've liked tony's posts today, and of the 3 I think he is more likely town.

So, my order of preference for who watches tonight: Me>BSG>Tony.

[Rhinox]

I'm far more cautious about Rhinox watching--if he's scum, which I strongly suspect he is, he would have a prime chance to forge some evidence against me.

Herein lies the dilemna with anybody watching...

But now that you've pointed out a flaw, it makes it one big WIFOM problem. For example, what would you expect if I come out tomorrow after watching and completely corroborate your story, given that you expect me as scum to try to fabricate something to frame you? Will you assume I'm town reporting the information I got, or will you assume you foiled an attempt for me to try to make you look bad? What if now, after you suggest I would lie, I actually do get/report more information than you? Would that mean I still tried to fabricate something even though I knew you would find it scummy, or would that mean that I actually was being honest?

How do we know you didn't just suggest that to cover your ass, since you know whoever watches will come back tomorrow with more information that you gave us this morning? Basically, you just said you would be suspicious of whoever watches if they report more significant information than you were able to report this morning.

For that matter, why would Rhinox-scum be any more likely than any other scum to fabricate something to frame you? On of freeko or Vi could be scum, why wouldn't they try to fabricate something? Freeko especially.. I suspect he might even try to make something up as town just because he wants you dead so badly.

[Rhinox]

I would go for path B. Rugged and up and over a hill doesn't seem so bad. Seems like wolves would have a hard time following. Also, on top of a hill, we'll have a better view of the surrounding areas. On the other hand, lake + small shore seems like we could get surrounded and backed into a corner with no escape pretty easily.

Seems like freeko is also an incompetent watcher. Doesn't tell me anything I wanted to know, however, because I did not want freeko to watch.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox seems pretty keen on selling the idea of a mountain walk. Do you know something? (other then your profound flavour reasoning)

Nope, I don't know anything more than anyone else - I just didn't want korts to make the decision . As far as I can see, it doesn't really matter which way we go. We've had nothing happen as a result of direction so far, and I've seen no hints to say that anything special will happen this time. Somebody bold something so we can get on with the day.

-----------------------------------------

Also, Vi, Freeko, since we know Y'all are masons and what not, talk about anything fun and exciting during the night? I'm curious as to why Vi has freeko listed as the most town person besides himself...

-----------------------------------------

anyways, I'm going to go out on a small limb and speculate that there are either 2 mafia remaining, or 2 mafia + sk (I suppose 1 mafia + sk is also possible, but the only time I've seen a game with only 2 total mafia + 1 sk, it was insanely biased towards the town). On the flip side, 3 townspeople and a neutral are dead.

So, that means setup-wise, we're either at 5-2, or 4-2-1.

5-2) Not technically Lylo, but if there is a vig who was responsible for juls death, tonight would be a bad time to misvig if we don't lynch scum today.

4-2-1) Not a true lylo, but no good will come from a mislynch either. A mislynch + no crosskills at night is a mafia victory. A mislynch with mafia killing sk, and sk killing town is again, a mafia win. A mislynch with mafia killing town and sk killing mafia is a 2-1-1 crapshoot tomorrow. A mislynch with mafia killing sk and sk killing mafia is a not too bad 3-1 lylo. On the other hand, lynch sk still leaves us at 3-2 lylo tomorrow, while lynching mafia could put us anywhere from a 2-1-1 again, to a town win, depending on the crosskills.

In either case, its infinitely better to not mislynch today

I've already explained why I do not believe Korts is guilty - I do not think Juls was bussing him.

Similarly, the amount of time you spent voting juls makes me think you were not bussing juls - in other words, not guilty.

[Rhinox]

So...

Part of my analysis yesterday included Raider backing Korts' sheep claim, and calling them both likely town. If you remember, I had a group of {raider, korts, Vi, freeko} that may or may not have been scum but I considered bad lynch choices (later I added BSG to that group), and a group of {Tony, Tubby, afatchic, Juls} where I concluded at least 1 of them had to be scum. Well, 1 of them was scum (Juls), so conditions have changed in a way that makes it so I'm unable to create a (non-random) group where at least one must be scum with information I currently know.

That being said, what I really want to know today is how raider knows about the sheep, and why he thinks the sheep (Korts and Tony) are pro-town. If raider's claim seems honest - that it also makes sense to the rest of us that pro-town raider would know about the sheep and that sheep are pro-town - then I can create a group of {tubby, freeko, and Vi} of which there are probably at least 2 and possibly 3 scum (either mafia + sk, 2 mafia, or 2 mafia + sk).

To me, it seems the best course of action would be to get a full claim from raider early today to see exactly how cleared the sheep are, and move on from there.

[Rhinox]

@rhinox: You look really bad to me right now. Maybe instead of trying to get a claim from someone else, this is about the time you should be claiming I think. With the information brought to light over the night phase (Juls the first scum to be revealed) it makes you look really bad. I think you should be todays lynch.
---------------------------------------
I think Rhinox is in a position that needs him to be claiming moreso than you do at this point. Rhinox I believe is most closely associated with Juls, and we know Juls alignment now. So the question I want to know is what does that make Rhinox?This is a question I feel should be answered above all other things at this point.

Irony is ironic... on many levels.

Freeko, how am I connected to Juls? I don't recall you saying anything similar to that yesterday - All I heard you say is Korts needs to die. Now, you're agreeing with korts that I'm likely scum? Why do I get the feeling you're more likely just a scum curious if I'm the one who vigged juls, rather than you actually think I'm scummy or connected to Juls?

Rhinox wanted me to full claim. I do not have a problem with it as it would help explain things more but it would make me more of a target. I will let everyone make this call not just one person. Last time this was brought up most people said no atleast not until I am at L-1.

I wouldn't worry about becoming a target if you can clear 2 other players (The sheep). That makes the game pretty trivial from here on out.


Here's where I'm at. I don't think i'm in a position where I need to claim today. I'm not sure I have a connection to Juls, and I'm not sure Korts has looked at the game without his "ZOMG RHINOX IS SCUM" glasses in a very long time. Part of why I want raider to claim is because I want to know what information he has to call the sheep and thus korts to be likely town - because otherwise, the only thing korts has done since Vi replaced in is sit around calling me scum, and there hasn't really been much of anything else. Tony also claimed sheep. So, Raider's role claim might also clear him as well, leaving a very small group in which to find the rest of the scum - Me, freeko, Vi, and tubby. I know I'm town. I'm not sure I would believe that both freeko and vi are scum. So, if Raider's claim is as good as we've been giving the benefit of the doubt since yesterday, then that means tubby is almost assuredly scum today. This is where I'm going with asking raider to claim today. If its good enough to make me think that he, tony, and korts are town, then tubby is scum. If his claim is weak, or not quite strong enough to say yeah, the sheep are probably town, then we have a harder decision to make today, because that would open korts and tony for lynch consideration today. Moreover, either way I think raider is likely town for partial claiming to support korts, unless raider and korts are scum together. IMO, much of the game has been based on assumptions surrounding Korts claiming sheep and raider supporting korts. Thats why I think raiders claim would be the best starting point today.

So there, I've lobbied for my opinion. I'm fairly confident its the best course of action today, and will provide the most information about the most number of players, without everyone massclaiming.

[Rhinox]

I'm not liking Rhinox's accusation that I haven't been scumhunting since Vi replaced in. Care to elaborate on that?

And while my conviction is solid in you being scum, I think I have done a fairly good job of keeping my mind open to other options.

I went back and looked at your posts. Since you voted me after Vi replaced in and we wagoned you, you've

1) complained about big posts and made promises to catchup
2) went on a tangent once basically OMGUSing freeko for tunneling on you, then doing a 180 for no apparent reason calling him likely town for a (IMO) bad reason (scum wouldn't be so assertive wifom)
3) said you would switch your vote to juls, but only if she was a bigger wagon than me at deadline

Its seems to me like you're basing all your reads on the wagon that formed around you. Either you're way off on your read on me, or your scum. Yeah, you were right about juls, but it makes me wonder - juls and I got on and off your wagon in nearly identical ways. You called us both scummy for it, but you were trying to push the town in my direction. I could imagine scum-korts doing that to distance from juls in the event she's killed, but still try to get me lynched, instead of your scumpartner. I don't think you were very clear if there were reasons you found us scummy other than how we hopped on and off your wagon, and because of that, I'm not sure why you found me scummier than Juls.

The reason I want raider to claim is because he has information that says you (and tony) are "probably town" for being sheep. If its good information, then I can drop my suspicions of you and just accept that you legitimately find me scummy.

I think everyone should post whether or not raider should claim in their next post. If a majority votes 'yes', then raider should claim, and vise versa. If you vote "no", please state why not. No one's really spoke up yes or no since I proposed the idea, so I'm guessing most everyone is indifferent about it.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox should know why I'm doing this. If he doesn't, that sounds like his own fault.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of holding a seperate vote on the subject. If you want a claim out of someone, convince the town of their scummyness.

Would you tell a cop on D3 (potentially) lylo not to claim even if they could confirm 2 innocents? That is essentially how I'm looking at this situation. I don't really think raider is scummy, but I think his claim could potentially clear 2 players + himself if it seemed like an honest claim. I could potentially see the claim resulting in 3 different scenarios:

1) Its completely solid and we all are fairly confident it proves sheep are town, which also indicates raider would be town as well.

2) It leaves some room for doubt, but seems like a valid claim. The sheep wouldn't be confirmed, but raider would seem likely town due to partially claiming to protect a sheep.

3) The claim sounds completely fabricated, and doesn't make sense at all for calling sheep town. Sheep allignment would be wifomy, but raider would be looking scummy for his earlier defending of the sheep.

Yesterday, I assumed scenario 1. I would like to believe scenario 1 is valid, making it very easy to decide who to vote today. I'm assuming scenario 2 is probably more likely. Without Raider's claim, its impossible to say which of the 3 scenarios are valid.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox should know why I'm doing this. If he doesn't, that sounds like his own fault.

Reread 866, and 850 if you have to.

aha... sorry bout that, I thought I already answered your question.

Early in the day, when you listed the order of who you thought was scummy, you had freeko listed as least scummy, besides yourself. I didn't get the sense yesterday thats where you had him listed in your scum reads, so I thought maybe there was something in your night conversation to push freeko so low on your list of suspisions.

That reminds me of a question: I would like you to expand a bit on this comment you made after listing your night conversation with freeko:

As I typed this, I saw two things that just pushed freeko up from the bottom of my scumlist. Could it really be coincidence...?

You made this comment, but didn't reveal what you saw, or ask any questions, or otherwise pursue any actions relating to this comment. What two things are pushing up your suspicions of freeko, and why aren't you questioning freeko about them?

[Rhinox]

The reason for the vote on Rhinox was because he was the one who asked me to bring up what was said, but didn't seem to bother with actually looking at what was said. Did he care? Did he already know? His question with no follow-up, in light of the relevance of the answer, looks scummy. Yet as I think more about it, there's a problem here, too - a Mafioso scummily outing his partner is utterly preposterous; and I'm fairly confident that even Rhinox, who last time I checked has no experience with non-suicidal scumpartners, would do this. For a counterpoint, see 4) above, though...

Well, there was also another secret reason for wanting to know what was said - If you both are scum faking neighbors, you'd have to come up with a fake conversation on your own on the spot without being able to deliberate with freeko about it, unless you prepared for it the night before.

I did find the mention of BSG slightly odd, but wifomy. Freeko's comment seems in line with his beliefs about BSG yesterday, so his question seems valid. Whats more odd is that Freeko said both last night and yesterday that he thought both korts and raider were scum, and that he expected either himself or vi to be the nk, but today he's saying he expected raider or korts to be the nightkill. Its almost like a subtle "If I were scum, I'd have killed korts or raider, but NEVER BSG ;);)"

I've never heard of a role that gets to read in on a quicktopic, but I guess its possible. Actually, I'm suprised that the 2 of you even get a quicktopic, instead of just PMing. I've always thought quicktopics were for groups of 3 or more, where it would become tedious to PM everything to everyone. However, one thing you wouldn't mention, but we can't rule out, is that the rest of us KNOW there was someone else reading your quicktopic besides freeko, and that person is you yourself. That is why anything in the discussion kinda boils down to WIFOM to the rest of us - how do we know you didn't kill BSG and be ready to frame freeko for it due to the night conversation? Not saying I think thats the most likely scenario, but thats why I decided not to comment on the night conversation - theres nothing definative for me to deduce from it.

I would like to ask, what happened to this?

If Juls and TonyMontana are scum, Rhinox is likely Town, and since he was paying more attention to BSG just listen to him. (Yes, I said that.)

Juls was scum, tony probably isn't... How does assuming tony town move me from "probably town, trust his judgement" to "one of my top 2 suspects"?

Well, the difference is raider has already claimed his "innocents" and a dead unclaimed cop does not talk.

In light of the recent thought about the mugging flavor, I think I'll set aside the claimed sheep for today - TonyMontana and Korts. While I will still research them, as both of them need it, I do not believe both of them can be the remaining Mafia under the game's flavor. That leaves... freeko, tubby, raider, and Rhinox as my suspects - with emphasis on freeko and Rhinox, but mostly freeko.

"Korts"]Why are you trying to force raider into claiming? I don't think it's lylo, since it seems there may be multiple factions--I'd say 2 mafia and an SK based on flavor, with the mafia kidnapping/mugging and the SK stabbing.

To answer all of you, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable taking Raider at his word today. We have to trust not only that he has an honest, believable claim, but also that his interpretation of his role actually does clear the sheep. Other problems I'm having - Assuming everything raider is saying is honest and correct, why aren't "confirmed innocents" being nked? Tony and Korts are cleared through raider, and vi and freeko are neighbors that we can't confirm, but we're to believe they are town as well. Furthermore, why would scum raider clear two real town players, and leave them in the game? So we'd have to assume raider town as well. If all 5 are actually town, I'd really have expected 1 of those 5 to be the mafia kill last night. Also, it should be easy for the town to win - tubby and I are the only 2 not "cleared" in some way. Since I know I am not scum, that means either tubby is the last scum (doubtful), or at least 1 of the 5 "cleared" players aren't really cleared.

So lets back up. Raiders claim is honest and the interpretation is correct. Tony and Korts are still cleared. That means scum are in a group of tubby, freeko, and vi. Since I don't believe both neighbors are scum, I would vote tubby.

Lets back up again. Raiders claim is honest, but the interpretation is not correct and tony and korts are not cleared. The potential scum group grows larger - {Tony, Korts, Tubby, freeko, Vi,

Raider

} Raider becomes questionable because if I believed his claim, then it would seem that he was simply mistaken for calling sheep town, but I couldn't rule out the possibility it was a clever fake claim to protect a partner.

One more time, if Raider's claim is completely rediculous and fabricated, then Raider is probably scum, korts and tubby's connection t raider falls to WIFOM, and tubby, freeko, and Vi are still on the table. Raider would get my vote in this scenario.

If you ask me to just accept raider's claim as true, then its quite obvious to me that tubby should be voted. If you ask me to just ignore what raider has said and vote for whoever I think is scummiest, I have a problem because korts seems really scummy to me. I want Raider's claim so I can ease my own concern about korts, and feel comfortable going after tubby.

@korts: if you really think the setup is 2 mafia + sk, then yes, it basically is LyLo. A mislynch today would mean that can't win without help from crosskills. However, I doubt that we have an sk, and I don't agree with your analysis on flavor for why you believe there is an sk. For one, you say a stabbing sounds like an sk. That would be a knife, or some other sharp, piercing weapon*, yes? What would a vig use? Normally, I would think a gun. But, my own interpretation on the flavor is we're a town in a time before guns, so what other weapon* could a vig possibly use? If you really think about it, I think the signs are pointing to that kill on Juls being made by a vig and not an sk. Doesn't rule out the presence of an sk, however. But IMO, if we have an sk among us, they have yet to make a successful kill.

[Rhinox]

TonyMontana, tubby216, or Rhinox seems like one of them will be todays lynch. When I get time I hope this weekend I will to a PbP on them. Atleast for a starting point for me. I would still like to look into Vi and freeko more but I dont think I would get support for them today so my focus will be on the other 3.

See, this is where I start to have problems. Raider says he thinks sheep are town. Korts and tony are sheep. And now, raider says tony would be a good lynch choice... Why not Korts? Why is Tony a better lynch choice than korts?

This get derailed when Vi replaces in for PK. After this, Korts backs off the wagon, and Rhinox goes for the next target immediately and jumps on me. Rhinox tries really, Really, REALLY hard to try to contort the situation (around the 360-370 post range now) into obv one of the two of us is scum.

This really was just a misunderstanding. I really thought you claimed to be confirmed through role PM - not that you only inferred that through PK claiming and calling you town.

The rest of 892, all I see is that you think I'm Juls scum partner because we both pressure PK at the beginning of D2. PK was barely playing and had yet to clarify his role claim to confirm what you were saying. I'm not quite following your logic for how Juls and I were working together to (mis)lynch PK. All you're really saying is that we both voted PK - the rest you're really purely speculating.

[Rhinox]

Maybe so, but I look back on those posts now in that whole beginning of day 2 exchange and it looks really bad for you Rhinox. I dont think it tames much for someone to draw a conclusion given 1+1=X now does it?

I think a better representation of what you are doing is saying 1+X=Y, and adjusting X and Y to support your conclusion.

Truly, what was your motivation behind the PK lynch, and then my own lynch attempt after that failed then?

I wanted to pressure PK into talking, and if he didn't start talking or get replaced, follow through with the lynch. I have no remorse from lynching players who don't participate, even if they end up being town. I'd rather lynch them sooner rather than later, to eliminate the question mark later in the game. Some say thats a bad reason for lynching someone, to "policy lynch" a lurker. Truth is, I never truely policy lynch someone just for lurking. I have to think they're scummy first. Example is BSG in this game - she was lurking/inactive, but I didn't think she was scummy.

After Vi replaced in and claimed, I honestly thought there was an inconsistency between your claim and Vi's. I thought it was an obvious point that proved you were lying, so yes, I wanted you lynched. When I realized I was mistaken, I obviously did not want you lynched, and haven't considered you a good lynch choice since.

Had to Kill BSG to score brownie points with me since BSG had a vote parked on me for 20+ days? Since the scum failed in their attempt to get either myself or PK/Vi lynched in day 2. They kill BSG to sow more seeds of discontent towards me in a further effort to cause a mislynch of myself or Vi. Problem is that I had much more hatred towards korts, and even admitted I wanted to stomp his guts out on more than one occasion. If the NK was korts, then you would have had a much greater time of convincing others that I was somehow behind it.

This doesn't make any sense... first of all, If I'm scum, and I know you and BSG are both town, and I know you're itching to vote BSG for camping a vote on you, how would killing BSG be beneficial at all? Seems like it would have been better to leave BSG alive, and then help you mislynch her today. So, seems more likely the reasons for killing BSG do not revolve around you afterall, freeko. Its pretty bad WIFOM to say I'm scum because I would kill BSG to make you look bad. Firstly, why would I specifically do that, anymore than anyone else as scum? Secondly, I'm not even arguing to lynch you or Vi today - I'm arguing to lynch tubby (if sheep + raider are assumed as town).

So the NK was a mistake. Much like the first NK was aimed at Occam, the one person who flat out said that they could clear myself and Vi on consecutive nights. Its obvious that the scum plan is still to try to secure a mislynch. THough now on anyone at this point. I dont think you have a shot at either Vi or myself like you thought at the end of day 1. Too bad Juls died, or it might still have had a chace of working.

Yeah, congratulations. You figured out the scum plan... get town mislynched. As I've said before, I'm not arguing to lynch either you or Vi today, so I think you're just confused. Not real sure where you got that idea from.

I knew someone would point this out but I will explain it when I can do my review this weekend. This was something I think would make people think differently.

Ok, I'll be waiting for your review.

[Rhinox]

No raider, not entirely waiting for you, but I do view what you have to say as pretty important because what role information you have revealed is playing a large part on our assumptions and focus today.

Now seems like a good time to go back and look at tubby and his predecessors and see if there is anything more there than process of elimination.

Rogue Shenanigans:

0: picked the path. WIFOM ensues

1: Explains that later he wouldn't condone his action in post 0, but "its ok now because the mod said it didn't mean much". I feel this was a bit hypocritical - what gives RS the right to decide whats an important decision, and what isn't? What gives RS the right to decide what needs talked about and what doesn't? IMO, this limited conversation the town could have been having, and would have provided a different, better way to get the game going rather than just random voting like in every other game. Although I have no reason to believe that scum would or wouldn't pick the path, if I think in terms of limiting the town's conversation, then this becomes a point against RS. The question I have, that I can't get answered, is, is RS scummy for limiting the conversation, or was he just town who was thinking he was just making a decision to get into the game, and didn't realize that talking about picking which path would have been just as valuable, actually more valuable, than starting the game through the traditional random voting.

2: RV Korts

3: Scolds freeko for attacking him for choosing a path without discussion. My note here is just because RS says, /in before "You should have waited for us to talk about it", doesn't mean we should ignore that point and not discuss it. Just because you realize something you should have done, but didn't, it doesn't excuse you from not doing what you should have done.

4: Asks for forgiveness for starting "5 pages of debate over a choice that was stated unimportant by the mod." What I find interesting is that town or scum, RS should have realized that was exactly what was going to happen as a result of his rash decision. If RS=town, then I would imagine that the choice was intentional in order to spark exactly this conversation (similar to someone self-voting in the random stage - you know its going to be controversial, but you're doing it to start a discussion). RC's comment here makes me think he wasn't intending to have a conversation over his choice. I think the apology points more towards scum trying to be apathetic to appease the town. Apologizing for conversation and debate is not something town should do, IMO. Town should welcome all conversation as valuable in some way, shape, or form. Even if RS thought the decision was meaningless, that doesn't make the conversation about it any less valuable.

RS also says "I disagree that Occam was fishing. Or at least fishing WELL. He was just uselessly speculating on the setup and voicing his thoughts." If RS is scum here, he knows Occam is town :shrug: This seems kinda like playing both sides here - defending occam by disagreeing with the attack on Occam, while leaving room to vote Occam later for "uselessly speculating on the setup" if he wanted to. If RS is town, then he was just expressing his thoughts :shrug:

5: "Korts claimed scum.

Quicklynch go!" Joke? Legit bandwagon attempt? Fluff? who knows...

6: Explanation of the site being down

7: Insists his path choosing is null in every respect. Maybe he's right, but thats for the town to decide - its not null just because he says so.

8: "Was answering Prom King. Was defending his idea that I am more likley town... which I dont think is a healthy approach." Very interesting comment here. Speculation: RS-scum picked the path and tried to argue that it didn't matter if we talked about the choice or not, cuz it was meaningless. Just as RS was about to get past picking the choice, PK-idiotscumpartner chimes in trying to say how picking the path actually makes RS likely town. RS realizes that not only is PK's logic invalid, but its a pretty bad connection to each other. RS immediately downplays PK comments and calls them outright wrong.

Now, let me assume RS is town for a minute... If I'm town, I know I'm town, and I want the other townies to think I'm town, so I can not get mislynched and try to mislynch scum. If someone says they think I'm town, even for a reason I don't agree with, I would never say "no, thats wrong, you still have to assume I could be scum". Instead, I would keep that in the back of my head (why would that player think I'm town for that reason?) and keep my eye on that player, and be glad that I'm not being considered for lynch.

However, if you assume RS and PK are scum partners, then this makes complete sense. PK created a link to RS, RS realized it was potentially bad, and tried to destroy the link by debunking PK. Given PK's horrible play, I could imagine this is a ossibility. This would point towards tubby and vi being the remaining mafia.

Alternative explanation: RS scum, PK town. RS was trying to look like a good townie by not accepting being called town for bad reasons. Given PK's horrible play, I could imagine him coming up with bad reasons for calling someone town (i.e. his claim to clear freeko). RS was simply trying to score points by saying "hey wait a minute, that doesn't make me town", while leaving an opportunity to vote PK later for using bad logic.

9: Hops on LT bandwagon, says we can lynch korts-scum tomorrow. Is this scum jumping on a townie bandwagon, or just RS's playstyle to bandwagon every opportunity? RS never gave a reason for voting LT...

10: Says there is a reason for voting LT: "Enough of a bad read to be a place to take off my random korts vote." Also says he has no reason to think korts is scum. RS never expanded on his bad read of LT, as this was his last post before replacing out. This would indicate to me that RS had no reason, and was just opportunisticly jumping on the wagon.

Summary: Nothing I've read would make me think RS is town. Lots of stuff I could rationalize to be scummy. At best, my read on RS would be completely null - nothing pro-town at all, and absolutely no scum hunting. At worst, I can rationalize RS to be pretty scummy based on his few comments.


Megaflareon:

Only 4 posts. The only contribution being that he was undecided on the mason claim until PK confirmed or denied.

tubby:

Tubby has more posts, so I'm not going to go through all of them here are a few I found interesting:

finished read on vi/pk

vi is town. I have been in enough games with vi to notice viscum and vitown this looks like vitown to me.

Does tubby know vi is town because of what he read, or does he know vi is town because he is scum and wants vi as a friend, or are they both scum? I'm thinking option B...

plus i knew vi was town with in his first page of posts, he has a tell and if i inform you of it his tell will dissapear

Vi says he's aware of this tell, so I think its time you tell the rest of us what this tell is.

vi i think i see why you want juls lynched,,

reading rihnox next

Accusing juls without any reason. Bussing?

ok so i read raider and nothing is setting of any alarms,

same with rihnox


but now onto juls,

I don't like how she was speculating over occum possibly being the shaepard, i especially don't like it after she made her full role claim, it doesn't make sense to me at all,

so
unvote: vote juls

The reasons for the vote on juls seem very weak to me. Looking back, I'm not sure I could view this as anything but bussing. Also, when did this opinion change. You though I was town, as well as raider, and you thought juls was scum. Well, juls was scum. Why are you now suspecting me? What changed your mind?

no thats all i felt like typing, inbetween chasing kids and cleanin my house, i do have a life,,, well atleast my wife says i do
------------------------------------------
well chalk you up to the long list of women i have dissapointed,, the list is long but its distinguished

Tubby says he has more reasons for voting juls, but never provides them.

after a time...

i understand the wagon, but with the deadline looming an being lost in my own read i am reluctant to hammer, however i feel it also bad if we alow this to linger out. i believe the more this strectes out there worse off the town is.

This doesn't seem to fit. tubby was pretty sure Vi was town, and raider and I weren't setting off alarms, and he thought juls was scum. Now he says he's "lost" and afraid to hammer afatchic even though there is a deadline - but also submits that "stretching it out would be bad for the town". I get the feeling that tubby wanted someone else to hammer so he could avoid the responsibility of hammering someone he knows is town. I think he says he's "lost" in order to be prepared to today attack players he previously said he thought were town yesterday. Nothing about tubby's posts yesterday made me think he was lost in any way - he seemed pretty sure of his convictions.

i say freeko or vi should watch, preferably vi

Either trying getting scumpartnervi to watch, or trying to be consistent with his earlier comment of being sure vi is town.

i would not be a good choice for watch

Already asked, but why not?

the day started with rihnox being the top suspect

Why do you consider me the top suspect at the start of the day, when at the end of the day yesterday you didn't see anything to set off any alarms?

i do not like rihnox right now he seems a lil scummier than the rest

Reasons? anything other than this:

rihnox pressuring raider to full claim and ask what vi and freeko talk about during nite phase.

Either way, why do you consider that scummy?

Summary: tubby rarely gives reasons for his opinions, and many of his actions reak of opportunism IMO. I want to know what tell he found to call Vi town, as well as answers/comments to my other questions. Tubby is seeming like a pretty solid lynch choice to me.

[Rhinox]

Tubby, I'm a bit uninspired by your answers. Its fine for you to not answer for your predecessors - I didn't expect you to, because you don't know why they said the things they did. But your other responses still leave a lot to be desired:

no thats rude and i will not reveal his tell unless he changes his meta and i think its bad form of you to ask if you can't find it in the games i sited then too bad for you

This is almost enough for me to vote you by itself. If you use meta to call someone scum or town, you better be able to explain why. If you can't or say you won't, I'm assuming you don't have one and you're just BSing us. At best, not explaining your tell is only serving to preserve your meta read of Vi for future games, which is anti-town in this game. Also, Vi said this:

Perhaps not; I'm well aware of the obvious tell. If I were ever Mafia *cough* I would be able to work toward fixing it.

Seems the cat is already out of the bag... So... lets have it.

you posts are i believe are full of misdirection

orly? how? examples?

no i was loat because i spent so much time on juls i neglected what everyone else was doing and i was a victim of my own tunnel vision

That doesn't seem accurate to me. You read Vi and determined you though he was town. You read me and raider and concluded we weren't raising alarms. You made one post saying you thought you saw why Vi was voting Juls (why was that by the way?), and you only made one half way substantial post outlining a weak case against juls. No evidence of tunnelvision causing you to be lost.

i felt that more people felt like vi was more town than i and rather than have someone question me and berate me for watching and nothing happened i figure it would be better if he or freeko did

So we could question and berate someone else? Why are you afraid of being questioned?

because between day 2 start and that post you kinda lit yourself on scummy fire

orly? How?

because i do but more on you later can we just focus on me right now?? i mean is this a case on me? or a defense of yourself,?

Why must the 2 be mutually exclusive? I think you're pushing a BS and opportunistic case on me without supporting it, and that is a part of why I find you obvscum right now.

wrong agian just wrong

orly? I guess you saying so makes it so . Prove me wrong then. *tick tock*

[Rhinox]

i think you are so scared of the lynch so you lash out on me. so that brings me to ask the question why? I believe its because you couldn't get anywhere with raider, and tm/korts would yield you no results and. attackin vi/freeko is pointless.

Right.. scared

Anyways, I don't think Raider is scum, and he has information that clears sheep aka tony and korts. You say I "couldn't get anywhere with raider" as if you think I was trying to get him lynched? That really couldn't be further from the truth. I believe there are 2 mafia left, and if its not raider, korts, to tony, then its you and one of vi or freeko. I don't believe both vi and freeko could be scum. Raider, though, suspects tony could be scum, and I'm interested to hear why, considering he is a claimed sheep. Lashing out is not what I'm doing. Whats a matter? Can't take a little pressure?

ok so you want my case on you stand by just remeber you asked i was content to leave you alone

hmmm... so you think I'm scummy, but you were willing to leave me alone until I started questioning you. This sounds absolutely nothing like what town should do, and also a bit like OMGUS.

FOS: tubby

with an intention to upgrade it to a vote pending what raider has to say this weekend.

and on the vi matter,, her is the deal i sited the games i did the work i get the reward , i drew you a map if you can't figure it out i am not doing your work for you, reading is fundamental

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You either got nothing, or you realize what you think you have is weak. Even if I had my own reads on Vi, I still want to know why YOU are so sure he's town. Preduce your evidence, or your reward will be my nice, shiny, black, bolded vote.

[Rhinox]

this was your first post, path "b" is not the path to choose rocks and mountains are good for goats not sheep, sheep would be slowed and have a hard time running away from attack, path "A" is the shore relatively easier for sheep to travel with the water at our back its less of an area to cover for watching, plus the path would be well traveled and better protected,

all of this is neither here nor there since this al revolves around flavor.

ping 1 one on scumdar

If the direction does not matter, why is my opinion on picking the path a ping on the scumdar?

ok the speculation on set up seems like mis direction the other kill last nite is more likely a one shot vig or an inventor type role i would be seriously surprised if there were two kills tonite.the lylo talk is a scare tactic, if the direction in wich we went diddn't matter then why so agianst korts picking it?
but i do not like this post at all. its a kinda null tell at this point not all that scummy but not all that pro town either imo.

The setup talk was not just misdirection. I too believe a vig kill is more likely than an sk, but it would not be wise to ignore the possibility. LyLo talk is not a scare tactic, nor is it meant to make me look more town. Unless you're saying that taking into consideration the earliest we might be in LyLo somehow helps the scum more than town I wasn't "so against" korts picking the path - it was more of a joke, and considering that the path doesn't seem to matter, neither does the choice - which is why I said anyone could bold whatever they wanted to. If you consider this a null tell and not that scummy, then why is it a ping on the scumdar?

#860 and #873 trying to gain momentum for raider to cliam don't like it really don't like it

I don't care if you don't like it. You or anyone else hasn't really given a good reason why raider shouldn't claim, I think I have a pretty good reason why he should, but whatever. Why is it scummy to ask raider to claim?

agian with the pressure to claim with out voting, its like trying to stirr a big pot of soup with out getting any on you. add in a lil lylo scare tactic for good measure and you get

Your analogy makes no sense. I for one have no trouble stirring soup and staying clean. But again, whats so scummy about asking raider to claim, and why is it a scare tactic that helps scum to mention that if we mislynch, we will probably be in LyLo tomorrow at best, and possibly in an unwinable scenario if there is an sk? At worst, sure, it is a scare tactic - a scare tactic intended to get the town to try extra hard to not mislynch today.

then

tubby

gets into a big disscussion with

rhinox

trying to defend

himself

, then at the bottom of

tubby

attacks

rhinox

out of desperation

and don't even vote me..

fix'd it for ya

Anyways, I'm not going after you out of desparation, I'm going after you because you're scum, assuming the assumptions I've been explaining all day. And I haven't voted you yet because I'm waiting for a post from raider about why he thinks tony might be scum.

and for your last post yah vote me go ahead, but you are lookin in the wrong direction

and i'll even give you the reason of OMGUS for good measure

vote: Rniox

Who's Rniox?

anyways, if I'm "lookin in the wrong direction", that sort of implies that you know I'm town and there is a better direction for me to be looking. Yet you vote me. If you think I'm scum, I wouldn't be looking in the wrong direction now would I?

So then, what exactly is the right direction? You're voting for me - surely I'm not going to take that direction and vote myself. Just makes me think that I'm already looking exactly right where I need to be.

Anyways, I think we're at a point where we can just keep going back and forth like this until our fingers bleed. I'm interested to hear what Vi, Korts, Raider, and Tony have to say about all this. I don't really care what freeko has to say

[Rhinox]

If that were going to be the case, raider would be nked before claiming so we're left to speculate about his role and why he was calling sheep town. Once he tells us why he thinks sheep (well at least korts - for some reason theres a question about tony) then we'll already have the information.

Occam was nked before he was able to clear anybody :shrug:

[Rhinox]

OK, I'm a bit confused now.

I overheard Occam talking to a sheep. So if what he says is trust worth then so if my information.

First question: Did the sheep talk back, or did you only hear Occam?

What was said is not really important anymore as Occam is dead.

Even though you say this, I would like to know what was said, unless it gives away information about roles that you don't want to reveal. I would prefer to decide for myself what is important information and what is not.

All that being said, you knew that Occam was a shepherd before his role was revealed. Either you got extremely likely, or you're being honest with us (so far). Doesn't necessarily mean your role is pro-town, but I would doubt scum would be willing to share so much information with us (but maybe thats what you want us to think... yada yada yada)

Also on a side note, my work did an outing and we went skiing! I tried snowboarding for the second time in my life and though I did much better then the first time (which was a year ago) I am still in a lot of pain and do not feel like moving. That should help me do my review.

Yay skiing . I've been skiing for, wow 7 years now. (2 boards are better than 1, IMO ) First time out was a very horrible experience. I'd have never gone again if I hadn't purchased a package of 8 lift ticets, rentals, and lessons through my school's ski club. Glad I stuck with it because now I'm pretty good and its what keeps me looking forward to winter every year.

P.S. You have your location listed as Upstate NY. Just wondering where you go to ski? I learned at Holiday Valley in Ellicotville - Still my favorite place to go. Living in Ohio now, and there's no hills so I didn't get to ski much this year.

/sidetracked

vi is town to me ( i discussed it with my wife and she called me an ass for not saying why) but when vi is seriously town he over uses his joke daykill "insert player with dumb post here" thing then after like day two he will drop it, if he uses it more than two or three times he's town.

Thats awfully weak, IMO. I s'pose it doesn't necessarily make you scummy. I have no problem with your conclusion that Vi is town, but not if thats all your basing it on.

rhinox seems most likely scum at this point i don'y like how he was pushing raider, i do not like how he wanted to see what vi and freeko talked about, i don't like his sudden focus on me

Please answer these 3 questions:

1) Why was me asking for a claim/further information from raider scummy?
2) Why was it scummy to ask what Vi and Freeko talked about at night?
3) Why am I not allowed to focus on you?

I agree with the basis of your point, but the way you ask your question seems to me like you want to plant the Korts-scum thought in others.

Thats not it at all. Actually, I'm trying to do exactly the opposite. I'm looking for solid evidence to call you town so I can stop worrying about you. Because right now, you think I'm scum, and I know I'm town, so I don't know if you're town who legitimately finds me scummy, or scum just trying to get me lynched. In general, your play seems mostly town to me, and your sheep claim seems more as a result of a town slip (as opposed to a scum slip), but the way you've been mostly after me for the better part of 2 days now is causing me to have doubts.

Ugh. This is bad logic. Why do you assume that everyone would play like you as town? Me, I'd probably call them out. Hell, I can reference a game where Ectomancer specifically demanded of me why I exclude the possibility of myself bussing a known scum when I accused him of possibly bussing. Some players favor sensible logic over their own projected townness; I haven't played enough with RS to know how he thinks, but to assume he thinks the same as you is short-sighted and wrong.

You're absolutely right. But I wasn't trying to say "RS is scummy because...", it was more of a "If RS was scum, how can I rationalize his actions to be scummy; if RS was town, how can I rationalize his actions to be pro-town". It was purposefully speculation, and not meant as part of a case - more of a just a check on RS's play to see how much of his play should affect my read on tubby. In my conclusion, I said that my read on RS was basically null, but I could rationalize it more to be scummy than pro-town. All that tells me is that I can investigate tubby on his own, without any preconditions based on his predecessors' play. (whereas, if I'd have gotten strong scum or town vibes on RS, those would have to be taken into consideration when looking at tubby). I hope that makes sense.

Also, you stated that you had no intention of going after freeko today, but now, for the purposes of this part of the RS/tubby analysis you assume freeko's predecessor was scum? If you think he's scum, why don't you have any intention of going after freeko?

ummmm... Freeko doesn't have a predecessor, so what exactly are you saying here? None of my RS/tubby analysis said anything about freeko.

What leads you to believe the second option over the first one?

Because of his "Vi is town cuz of meta", and refusal to share details of said meta. Made me think he was using "meta" as a BS reason, knows vi is town, and is trying to buddy. Now that tubby has provided his reason, it becomes null because I don't think his reason is good enough for me to call option A more likely (that tubby knows Vi is town because of what he read).

You seem almost like you're eager to have something to refute, even though I share your general curiosity. I'm undecided on whether I actually want to know of this tell.

You guys are really getting me all turned around in this game. If someone tries to clear someone through meta, its seems logical to me to verify why so we know we're not being BSed. It doesn't mean I just want to refute something. Lets look at this another way. Hypothetically, what if tubby told us Vi was scum because of meta and voted him. Would you condone this action by tubby, or would you want to know the details so you could know why?

To be fair, Rhinox makes some fair points against tubby, but I get the feeling he's only doing it to avoid being lynched himself, and not out of a sense of duty to the town. Also, he apparently loves to keep arguing

Yes, I do love to argue. You kinda have to if you wanna play this game.

But I don't think you're being very fair... a number of players suspected me at the start of the day. Should I just sit here in the fetal position doing nothing but defend myself until I eventually have to claim, or should I keep scumhunting and try to find out who's really scum? Players get lynched for the former, usually when someone say's "you're not interested in scum hunting, only defending yourself". Well, I'm scumhunting, and you say "you're only trying to find someone else to lynch and prevent your own".

A couple things: 1: I think I have been clear since the start of the day I suspected tubby the most, and was looking for information from raider to verify my assumptions for coming to that conclusion were valid. I haven't really wavered from that. So, I don't think my actions have been consistent with an "anybody but me" attitude. 2: Self-preservation is not a scum tell. It supports my win condition as scum or town to not be lynched. It is up to you to decide if in acting in self preservation, I'm just trying to get anyone lynched, or if I'm trying to get scum lynched. If you refer to #1, I think you'll see I'm trying to get scum lynched.

In, I think, a similar way to how raider gained knowledge of the sheep, I got the information that Rhinox is responsible for the Occam shepherd's death. It is from a reliable source.

OK, forget everything I just said. Korts is scum.

vote:korts

I am a

Trail Guard

. I was hired by a lord who owns the woods you all are traveling through, and my job is to protect the groups passing through.

I am a limited shot vig - I don't know the limit. My weapon is my trusty pike, which is aparantly not so trusty because it breaks into pieces after a number of uses.

breadcrumbs:

I agree that freeko is acting very scummy. Since the masons are unconfirmed, theres no reason to believe that freeko can't be scum. I agree with Juls that ever since Vi replaced in, freeko has been acting like he thinks he's bullet proof.

Part of me wants to hold a gun.. er.. a pike rather up to his head right now to see if his confidence holds

(that was artistic liscense for me saying I'm considering voting him for his scummy role fishing he's been doing, and his overconfidence he's been displaying since Big Brother Vi (or sister... god, I feel so stupid but i don't think I've ever known which.. do you have a preference as to which pronoun gender we call you by Vi? I'm assuming sister would be the appropriate one since you said 80lbs is almost all of your weight... unless you're a really skinny 12yo boy Razz) came in and backed him up. However, we've already got all we can get out of pressuring freeko by votes, so I would only vote him now if I was intending to lynch him.

later...

@korts: if you really think the setup is 2 mafia + sk, then yes, it basically is LyLo. A mislynch today would mean that can't win without help from crosskills. However, I doubt that we have an sk, and I don't agree with your analysis on flavor for why you believe there is an sk. For one, you say a stabbing sounds like an sk. That would be a knife, or

some other sharp, piercing weapon*, yes?

What would a vig use? Normally, I would think a gun. But, my own interpretation on the flavor is we're a town in a time before guns, so

what other weapon* could a vig possibly use?

If you really think about it, I think the signs are pointing to that kill on Juls being made by a vig and not an sk. Doesn't rule out the presence of an sk, however. But IMO, if we have an sk among us, they have yet to make a successful kill.

Notice the *'s in the last post? well, they were a signal specifically meant for Vi to understand. In my last game with Vi, I used * to mark that I was gambiting. Well I was really hoping Vi was town now and got my message. I think this means he did:

A note on defense - The vote on Rhinox was in large part for pressure's sake, because that appeared to be the

only way to get him to RT*T

(or at least that was the way that would work best in my one-dimensional worldview).

I didn't use my ability at all night one, because of being limited to an unknown number of uses, and not wanting to waste my uses and accidentally hitting town. I killed Juls night 2. I wasn't entirely sure she was town, but I wanted to use my ability because we already had 2 mislynches, and I would be able to vig without causing the town to lose, and provide information to the town based on Juls death, and at worst give the town better odds at hitting scum today by removing a player from consideration. I was also putting some trust into Vi's belief that Juls was scum. Since Juls was scum, thats what caused me to believe Vi was town and use my * signal, desperately hoping Vi would pick it up.

When freeko started calling out my connections to juls, I said there was some irony in there. Ironic, because I actually killed Juls.

I can't guarentee I can kill tonight, which is why I'm claiming now. Claiming now gives us 100% chance of lynching korts-scum, where there is less than that chance of me being able to vig scum tonight, let alone vig at all.

So, as RS said so early in the game...

"Korts claimed scum

quicklynch gogogo :arrow:"

Well, it doesn't have to be quick, but we do have to lynch korts.


[sidejoke to vi] Yes, I know I'm asking you to suspend your disbelief that I can really be a vig and not an sk yet again - what is this, the 3rd time now in our 4 games together? [/joke]

[Rhinox]

EBWOP: forgot, another tidbit of a breadcrumb:

Freeko, how am I connected to Juls? I don't recall you saying anything similar to that yesterday - All I heard you say is Korts needs to die. Now, you're agreeing with korts that I'm likely scum? Why do I get the feeling you're more likely just a scum curious

if I'm the one who vigged juls,

rather than you actually think I'm scummy or connected to Juls?

Bolded part was supposed to be seen as a slip that I "knew" Juls was vigged, and not killed in some other way. The only way I would know that is if I were a vig.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP again:

forgot to add my win condition to the post:

I win when the town traveling party can't be harmed by the anti-town forces - my lord who hired me sends me to the guillotine to lose my head if this becomes impossible.

I assume the interpretation to mean if the scum gain a majority, I lose.

Remember early on when I was talking about out speculative 2nd win condition (making it alive to D6?) and how it could be possible for some town members to make it to the town on D6 even if the scum gain a majority? well, that doesn't apply to me, because I'm not traveling with the town. If I can't prevent the scum from harming the town (prevent the scum from attaining a majority), I lose (my head!).

[Rhinox]

Nice try scum:

Also even if you're really the cause of that kill you may still be scum with a one-shot vig in addition

I don't want him to nightkill tonight.

How many 1-shots do I have you say I killed Occam, who was mugged. I say I killed juls, who was stabbed. If I'm 1 shot, how does that explain Jul's death if you alledgedly got information that I killed Occam, and how would I be able to kill tonight?

Nobody's gonna counter my juls kill except your scum partner. If I killed occam, who disappeared for the day, and was revealed the next night, flavorwise I would have to be responsible for BSG's death. I'm not. I killed Juls. You're scum.

More like you don't want to give me a chance tonight to kill your scum partner

I think its about time we get a full claim out of you afterall, so we can hear what BS you're able to fabricate. Flavorname, role description, and wincon please. Thanks you.

RHinox, you said that you are not part of teh town. Does that make you something then more in the way of an SK.

Since you take credit for Juls death, enlighten us as to why you pwnt juls.

Its right here:

I didn't use my ability at all night one, because of being limited to an unknown number of uses, and not wanting to waste my uses and accidentally hitting town.

I killed Juls night 2. I wasn't entirely sure she was town, but I wanted to use my ability because we already had 2 mislynches, and I would be able to vig without causing the town to lose, and provide information to the town based on Juls death, and at worst give the town better odds at hitting scum today by removing a player from consideration. I was also putting some trust into Vi's belief that Juls was scum.

Since Juls was scum, thats what caused me to believe Vi was town and use my * signal, desperately hoping Vi would pick it up.

And no, I'm not part of the town in flavor, but my job is to protect the town - I win and lose with the town, so stucturally, I'm all town.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

I didn't use my ability at all night one, because of being limited to an unknown number of uses, and not wanting to waste my uses and accidentally hitting town.

I killed Juls night 2. I wasn't entirely sure she was

town

scum, but I wanted to use my ability because we already had 2 mislynches, and I would be able to vig without causing the town to lose, and provide information to the town based on Juls death, and at worst give the town better odds at hitting scum today by removing a player from consideration. I was also putting some trust into Vi's belief that Juls was scum.

Since Juls was scum, thats what caused me to believe Vi was town and use my * signal, desperately hoping Vi would pick it up.

fixed a typo

[Rhinox]

Ok, here's my claim. I am a ram, and I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick. I can survive one nightkill attempt per night. I win when every threat to the town has been eliminated.

The information that Rhinox is scum was not role-based. Unfortunately I can't be less ambiguous about this. See my post 844.

mmm.... inconsistencies I see...

There are no guns in this game. There are (apparently) wolves who maul things, and a vig with a pike. No guns, unless anybody wants to claim to have a gun to back up your claim. That means, bulletproof you are not. NK immune GF or SK perhaps?

Tubby, can you expand on your claim any? I agree with Tony that it sounds weak.

Raider, you're roll name is silly, but I believe you based on the fact that you argued that Occam was a shepherd before his role was revealed, and you knew about the sheep being lost, also before it was revealed. Tony's claim seems solid, but all the info in there he could have gathered just from reading the thread. Korts "slipped" that he was sheep on D1, when contemplating voting MM... scum who slipped and assumed all the town were sheep? and then when questioned about it, had to claim to be a sheep for the slip to not seem like a scum slip?

[Rhinox]

Remembered this tidbit - when I first read it, I thought tubby was a sheep, but he never actually claimed. Could just be interpreted as a warning for those who are sheep not to claim.

ok is it beneficial for those that are sheep to claim at this point?

to me is seems anti town for them to claim.

i also see freeko's relentless persuit of this highly anti town.
that mixed with his posts appear to be missleading.


so with that

vote freeko

What we know is at least 1 of the 3 sheep are lying. I believe its korts because he's BSing information about how I "killed Occam" - Korts, why don't you give us a summary of what was told to you in your own words... sorta like how raider did.

Also, the weak claim. "Bulletproof" does not match the flavor of the game. There are no guns, so being bulletproof would not help at all.

@freeko: I'm very interested in how you've responded to my claim. Because, up until now, you've done almost nothing but try to get us to lynch korts. After I claim, you question me - ok, fair enough, it might have been a bit to take in. Then what... you ask for a mass claim, and then go after tony! But lets not forget that earlier in the day, you were expressing your concerns about tubby as well, and voting for me. This was your chance to jump right back on korts, telling all of us how much you told us so, and you haven't even mentioned his name since I countered his "information". I don't get it, unless you are his scum partner. All game, aside from your assault on korts, it seems like you don't care who's lynched, as long as you can make a silly case and "try" to be clever. You've attacked everyone except for Vi, actually. Now that there are some real major issues with korts, you want nothing to do with it...

I think Korts is scum, tony and tubby are both sheep as they say, which fits with raider's info about "both" sheep, and freeko is korts' scum partner.

[Rhinox]

Raider, did you try plugging what you received in the foreign language into an online translator? Maybe that will tell you something.

Korts, why don't you give us a little more information about 842 and 844 then. What did you have to get cleared up with the mod, and why didn't it apply, and how does that relate to your "information" you claim to have right now?

Also, if you just interpreted your role as bulletproof, why don't you give us a paraphrase of what your PM actually says.

A paraphrase of the "information" you claim to have about me would be nice as well.

[Rhinox]

Again, what does I CAN'T BE ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS imply to you?

That you're feeding us a bunch of BS and don't actually have anything to paraphrase.

I am a ram. Since I am the favorite of the shepherd, and am thus fed with the best stuff, my wool has grown much thicker. New line: This means that I am NK-immune; I will survive the first NK-attempt against me each night. New line: I win with the town.

See, the problem I have is with your first claim in 941:

Ok, here's my claim. I am a ram, and

I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick.

I can survive one nightkill attempt per night. I win when every threat to the town has been eliminated.

The bolded above implies to me that you thick fur has grown so thick it can actually stop bullets, making you literally bulletproof, like a bulletproof vest - not the backpedalling "bulletproof is just the generic term I used" explanation you gave. You second paraphrase just doesn't make it any better - you don't show any connection between how having thick wool makes you nk-immune. The "bulletproof wool" did make sense, except there are no guns :shrug:. Every other claim's flavor has made a lot more sense than that.

And don't get pissy with me for questioning you - you're claiming to have information I know to be a lie, and your claim and "information" you claim to have is full of holes and leaking like a sieve, IMO.

[Rhinox]

Ugh. It's not backpedaling to call a passive ability by its standard name. And are you implying that thick wool stopping bullets makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that it would stop stab-wounds?

Sure it would, but thats not what you said. You said "I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick". The first chance I gave you to correct your role claim was when I explained how bulletproof doesn't fit the flavor. The second chance I gave you was when I asked you to paraphrase your PM for the second time. If bulletproof is the word you used, then there must some other wording in there that explains why your thick wool makes you nk immune. In your second paraphrase, basically all you do is take out the word bulletproof. I would expect it to say something like "you're wool has grown so thick and tough that it can stop any injury". That would be believeable. After 2 chances to paraphrase your role, you don't provide any link to how your thick wool makes you nk immune.

Really. I like how you're protecting tubby's weak claim; tell me, how does a sheep with no ability, active or passive, make sense considering the "no vanillas" nature of the setup? And how does his claim relate to his previous denial that he is a sheep?

When I said that, I didn't mean they were all believeable, I meant that the flavor was consistent. Everything in my role PM is connected and explained. I know why I'm in the woods guarding the road, I know that the lord of the woods hired me to protect the town. Being a trail guard explains why I have a pike, and the flavor about how it breaks after a limited number of uses explains why I am a limited shot. The merchant claims are well thought out, the sheep claims match what we know about Occam's shepherd role (we do know his sheep were lost). Raider's claim is silly, but he knew things before they were revealed in thread, such as Occam being a shepherd. Now that I think about it, I seem to remember others mentioning something about thinking Occam was a shepherd. I'll have to go look and see who.

What I don't like about both Tony's and tubby's claim is that all the role information they provided was available in thread with plenty of advance time to fabricate it into a role claim. Tony's seems proper, but could be just a convincing fabrication. tubby's, on the other hand, contradicts tony's, and when confronted about it seeming like a vanilla role, added in the part about something happening if some action were met. However, Raider said his information mentioned something about "both" sheep, meaning 2 sheep. If there are 2, then tony and tubby are it, because I know you're making stuff up about me. If there is only 1 sheep, then its tony, and korts, you and tubby are scum.

Anyways, this begs the question: if you're so unimpressed with tubby's claim, why aren't you voting him?

One thing I've been considering is that scum have a role that cleans up there kill by making it look like somebody else did it. I've heard of it before, but forget what its called. IMO, it would only make sense if there was a tracker or watcher type role present, but none have been claimed. Also, I would imagine scum would be happy to help me lynch korts-town, and then set me up for lynch tomorrow. Since that hasn't happened, it makes me even more sure that korts is scum.

Not being able to reveal anything else about your information or how you got it is BS, IMO. You must have been given a reason as to why you can't be more direct about it. Can you tell us why?

----------------------------

Anyways, I think there is a second scum, but I'm pretty sure korts is scum at least. I noticed tubby is also voting korts. Bussing? coupled now with the fact that he's saying he believes korts' claim? ugh, idk, pretty sure either freeko or tubby is the second scum. I suppose I'll try to vig one of them tonight - can't guarentee I won't be blocked, or that my pike isn't already broken, however. I guess if tubby is lynched and is town, I should feel pretty comfortable in hitting scum with vigging freeko. If tubby is lynched scum, that makes me pretty useless for tonight if korts is nk-immune scum :shrug: I'm keeping my vote where I know its on scum, however. Raider and Vi are town, IMO. tubby and freeko are the 2 top candidates for 2nd scum, and tony is the 3rd option, but probably town.

[Rhinox]

So I got spared the elaborate flavor. What does that prove? Or do you think that if I was scum I'd be so stupid as to fake noticeably less flavor than I originally got?

This is still a bullshit point.

No, you slipped when providing a reason for why you were bulletproof, and have been trying to backpedal out of it ever since.

BECAUSE I have

reliable information

about you being responsible for Occam's death, like I said numerous times before.

Prove it.

REMEMBER ME REFERENCING MOD COMMUNICATION?

WHAT THE GENERIC SWEARWORD DO YOU THINK I WAS ASKING ABOUT?

CONNECT THE DOTS PLEASE

BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM

Firstly, this is the ORLY scum fallacy.

Secondly, you can paraphrase mod communication. [now enter my version of the ORLY scum fallacy] "BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM (and you got nothin' on me)" [/fallacy]

Paraphrase it, or you got nothin'. Simple as that.


By the way, if the information was so reliable, why didn't you mention it way back when you referenced your mod communication? Was was it not valid then, but is suddenly valid now?

[Rhinox]

Well, maybe I haven't been clear. So I'll spell it out one last time, after which I'll be extremely disappointed if Korts is not lynched today.

Enter Exhibit A: Korts 919 - The information

Hmm. I've had some things clarified.

In, I think, a similar way to how raider gained knowledge of the sheep, I got the information that Rhinox is responsible for the Occam shepherd's death. It is from a reliable source.

That is, pretty much, all I can say.

So I'd really like a Rhinox lynch right now.

Exhibit B: Rhinox 921-923 - My Claim

Facts:

-I killed Juls (No one countered)
-Juls was stabbed (I kill by stabbing with my pike)
-Occam was mauled - disappeared in similar way to BSG (Occam was a mafia kill)

Speculation: If I were an sk who targeted Occam D1 as well as the mafia, I would expect Occam to have been mauled AND stabbed, rather than simply mauled.

Exhibit C: Korts 924

Hmm. Your claim is plausible. However it's not that hard to set up--the pike thing may not have been relevant, and the second piece of evidence was after, from the night kill flavor, it had been apparent what you need to claim. Also even if you're really the cause of that kill you may still be scum with a one-shot vig in addition--knowing my role I think that's quite possible.

Here's my offer. I still think Rhinox is scum; hell, I'm convinced 100%. I don't want him to nightkill tonight. So lynch Rhinox today, lynch me tomorrow if he turns out to be what he claims to be-which he won't. A 1:1 trade is very good even at this point.

So... Korts' explanation for my claim is that I am mafia, with an added 1-shot ability, and used my 1 shot ability to kill my scum partner?!?

1) Given the town roles, does it make sense for the mafia to have an extra 1-shot ability in addition to the regular nightly kills?
2) Traditionally, the mafia cannot target one of their own with their nks... why would a mafia 1-shot be any different?
3) Has anyone actually seen a mafia 1-shot in a mini?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, everything above that line I think is pretty definitive evidence that I'm who I say I am, and korts' information is at best incorrect. I wouldn't say that proves korts is scum though - I think a scum misdirection type role would be plausible; a role that would make it look like someone innocent made a nk. However, korts' responses have made me think that IMO, thats not a probable explanation. Here's a list of reasons for why I think korts is scum:

-Intentional ambiguity about his "information" and where it came from
-being 100% convinced I am scum despite the overwhelming evidence above the dashed line
-Offering a 1:1 trade to lynch him if I'm what I claim (which I am)
-"I don't want him to kill tonight" comment isn't consistency with korts' speculation that I am mafia with a 1-shot - the rest of the mafia can still make their kill even if I'm mafia and I'm lynched, but if I'm a mafia with a 1-shot, I've already used it, and wouldn't be able to make an extra kill - in other words, this sounds like a scare tactic/Appeal to fear.
-Speculation point: If Korts were really town, and because I expect there are 2 mafia remaining, I would expect that the mafia would be itching to help me lynch korts-town so I would look bad tomorrow and be the LyLo mislynch - that hasn't happened, which makes me think its because korts is actually scum.
-Thick, "bulletproof" wool inconsistent with game flavor
-Subsequent backpedaling about the bulletproof wool
-Unwillingness to elaborate on Korts 844 and 842
-The AtE frustration typing in all caps
-The blatant ad hom in Korts 964
-Speculation point: Korts says he didn't get his information through any role abilities. So how then did he get his information? He refuses to say, probably because the information is fabricated.
-The ORLY scum fallacy in Korts 964: "You're just saying that because you are scum" and "WHAT THE GENERIC SWEARWORD DO YOU THINK I WAS ASKING ABOUT?

CONNECT THE DOTS PLEASE

BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM"
-Korts lashing out at tubby for the weak claim, yet keeping his vote on me

Now, I completely expect korts to respond in his faux frustration all caps matter and pick out a couple of the weaker points to try to strawman the argument and insist that I'm scum - but I hope I have shown that me being scum is not only unlikely, but improbable and IMO impossible. I think this is a pretty big grocery list of points against korts, and infinitely more believable than korts' "information" that he claims to have, yet fails to produce any evidence that it even exists, let alone that its believable and reliable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So who's korts' scum partner? there are only 2 options IMO:

Tubby
-only other player voting for korts; possible bussing
-Later switch to believing korts' claim
-weak claim that contradicts tony's claim
-scummy vibes I get from all his posts, but may simply be a result of his posting style

Freeko
-Was originally speculative about my claim
-After believing my claim, decided to go after tony instead of korts
-After I pointed out in Rhinox 946 that I expected freeko to be anxious to jump back on korts with an I told you so attitude, freeko does just that in 966

I don't know which of the 2 is more likely anymore. I would suggest to lynch korts-scum today, I'll vig one of those 2 tonight (assuming I'm not blocked), and the other can be lynched tomorrow if necessary FTW. Yeah, I'm lining up lynches, but thats because I feel that process will guarentee a town win.

Problems with that plan:
-If Korts is town, and has information, but its not reliable. A mislynch would cause me to not vig anybody tonight, because being wrong would cause a town loss. However, korts insists his information is 100% reliable, and I know (and I think I have proven) that its not. If Korts won't consider the possibility that he has unreliable information, then I have to assume that he's lying.
-Assumes Raider, Vi, and Tony are town. I could be wrong in my analysis about freeko and tubby, and possibly one of those 3 could be the second scum. Also possible is a hidden 4 scum, like an sk who hasn't attempted any kills so far. I find an sk unlikely, however.

[Rhinox]

-Occam was mauled - disappeared in similar way to BSG (Occam was a mafia kill)

At the risk of making another "what did i miss?", wasn't Occam mugged?

Sorry, innocent freudian slip. I know it was mugging, but I was thinking about wolves, and wolves maul, and maul starts with m. I was typing in a hurry and excited, it happens.

I liked most everything up to this point. What makes you think Raider and Tony are inherently town? Tony you should know was top on the night discussion list for Vi and I had made. The nexxt contestant is sadly no longer with us in Juls. So the only person on that list that I can agree with is Vi. As you well know, we also listed a someone in that as well. We were spending most of the time discussing who that someone could be and reached no relevant conclusion.

I didn't say they are "inherently" town, but my interpretation is they are likely town. Raider's claim and information is supported by the information he knew before Occam was revealed and his earlier comments - I'm choosing to believe its not an extremely elaborate scum conspiracy. Tony I'm less sure about, but when compared to tubby's claim, and korts who I know is lying, out of the three Tony's claim seems the most valid and accurate to the flavor and what raider had said earlier in the game. The problem I have with it is that everything in his claim was knowledge or assumptions available previously in the thread - nothing about his claim is "new" - its pretty much textbook of how we expected the sheep to work given our knowledge about Occam and Raider's information... almost too textbook.

Becuase we should just trust everything that everyone says right? Why bother questioning any of it. As much as I would want to believe you, I still have my doubts. I will be right up front and say that you could very well be what you say you are. On the other hand.... SK perhaps? Guess that speculation comes with the terriory of that particular role. I still cannot get past your interactions with Juls, who we know is scum, over the last gameday. Consider this the agree to disagree land.

This is not agree to disagree land. You're taking my comment out of context. Its not a problem for you to be speculative initially of my claim, but what I find odd is that despite how sure you've been that korts is scum since the beginning of D2, being irrational and a bit psycho about it, when I actually provide you with evidence that korts is lynch scum, you're skeptical, and you ignore it and decide to go after Tony instead. I find that extremely odd, and it sort of seems like you're trying to push an alternate bandwagon, rather than openly defend your scum partner, or go straight into bussing. For reference, here's what I said the first time I brought this point up, so you don't think I was saying you weren't allowed to be skeptical of my claim:

@freeko: I'm very interested in how you've responded to my claim. Because, up until now, you've done almost nothing but try to get us to lynch korts.

After I claim, you question me - ok, fair enough, it might have been a bit to take in. Then what... you ask for a mass claim, and then go after tony!

But lets not forget that earlier in the day, you were expressing your concerns about tubby as well, and voting for me. This was your chance to jump right back on korts, telling all of us how much you told us so, and you haven't even mentioned his name since I countered his "information". I don't get it, unless you are his scum partner. All game, aside from your assault on korts, it seems like you don't care who's lynched, as long as you can make a silly case and "try" to be clever. You've attacked everyone except for Vi, actually. Now that there are some real major issues with korts, you want nothing to do with it...

If you can't get past my interaction with juls, I suggest you read the final day of Mini 725 where I ended up being lynched (yes Vi, i was finally lynched ) in LyLo because a known scum had a connection to me. I was town, and the town lost because of it.

No, before someone cries foul, I'm not trying to use this to blanket all connections in every situation to be invalid because of this one example, but I'm just trying to show that connections aren't always a solid as you think they are.

Not to mention, Juls was mafia. The ONLY POSSIBLE scum role I can be is SK. Any connection you think I have to juls is simply a coincidence, and not an indication of my allignment.

- bolded because this is a good point, IMO

I dont see the "I told you so" in there, I am pretty sure that I am questioning/insulting his posts no differently than I have in the past. I just dont have the time anymore due to work to draw up some nice big production.

My point was, 966 seems fabricated and out of place, and possibly a direct result fo my comments in 946.

[Rhinox]

Freeko, as much as it pains me to say this, you bring up a couple good points in a reasonable manner. I wouldn't say it completely clears you, but it drops you back down into a more even level with tubby as to who could be second mafia. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say I'm 75-80% sure that either your or tubby are second scum, and 99% sure that korts is scum (the 1% uncertainty comes from the fact that korts could have been intentionally given incorrect information, and is too stubborn t consider the possibility)

The biggest problem I have with you is that I know you were buddy buddy with Juls the entirety of D2 only to stab the person you are buddying up to the whole time at night.

Well I think I've shown quite convincingly that the only scum role I can possibly be is an sk, which would make my interaction with Juls not an indication of allignment, and just a coincidence.

Im also going to go out and say that if anyone in the game were capable of a believeable fake claim, it would most certainly be you.

PRetty sure theres a name for this logical fallacy, just can't remember which.

Though you turn around and call me korts scumbuddy somehow when I stopped at nothing to attempt to get him lynched almost the entirety of D2. You also may have missed a few interactions of Juls towards me when he was pushing for PK/my lynch during D2 before Vi replaced in.That angers me that you of all people would be so stupid and shortsighted.

It is you who is being shortsighted, and quite frankly ignorant, if you can't realize why people don't just accept the things you view as obvious. For example, I can see how obviously town I am, and how obviously scum korts is, but I have not and will not call anyone stupid and short-sighted for not being able to recognize that.

Maybe I should consider wanting to stomp your guts after korts. I certainly have enough reasons why.

Well, after the last quote, I can see that this feeling is obviously based in OMGUS...

Regardless, you made enough good points in your last post that I no longer consider you the obvscumpartner, but on an even keep with tubby, and both of you are more likely to be scum than Vi and Raider, and Tony is sort of the wild card in the equation, but I feel is more likely town than scum.

[Rhinox]

The claim as sheep is allright, but I agree with Vi that the ambigious claims of knowledge are bad.
All in all, the attack on rhinox has been ridiculously horrible. I'm not saying RX is def town, but he's def not mafia.

unvote

Any objections to a hammer at this point?

No objections here. The case on korts is strong, I know he's lying, and I think I have all the information I need to make an informed decision tonight. Unfortunately for whoever replaces in, nothing they could say would reverse my vote at this point.

[Rhinox]

same here... I forgot about the first quote. Thats pretty much the nail in the coffin, IMO.

[Rhinox]

While we're all sitting here waiting for the mod, what do you all think about who should watch tonight?

[Rhinox]

Since the shepherd was dead, I guess that means that korts could no longer win with the town and could only win with the mafia? If I'm reading correctly, korts could only win with the town if the shepherd was still alive...

Anyways, I'm fine with Vi watching. No tubby. Freeko can't. Raider would be second choice, Tony third. Otherwise, I would be fine watching.

More speculation - if korts was schizo, that could explain his false information about me, if he did indeed have information at all.

[Rhinox]

Anyways, I would bold watch out of curiosity, but as I will most probably be the obv nk tonight, I figure it wouldn't be wise to watch if I couldn't report any findings.

About the watch being a red herring... keep in mind that korts watched N1 and he was (mostly) scum. If he got information, he wouldn't have shared. We don't know about freeko either. Could be that that nk role reveal is delayed if scum watch... just speculation though... only way I would know for sure is if I watched, but as I already said, I'll probably be dead tomorrow.

[Rhinox]

I'm so effing confused right now... someone want to explain to me what happened after korts' lynch??

Anyways, I had a secondary role ability. I could ambush, which means I target a player, and kill whoever else targets that player. I shoulda got somebody N1, but I didn't think things through enough... I knew Occam was going to be killed, but I thought he might be doc protected, and I didn't want to accidentally kill the doc... didn't think that MM was the only doc

Rhinox, why did you kill me? I buddyed the hell out of you all game...lol. I was hoping that at my inevitable lynch (when you all realized the gypsy claim was crap) that you would be target number 2 cause I did everything you did.

Because I couldn't peg anyone else as scum :shrug: And I figured if you were town, it would get people off my back for being "connected" to you. And the buddying was pretty obvious as well . At least because of it, I knew Vi was town.

So, I was limited NK-immune as well? I'm so confused... I think I had a pretty damn powerful role, all things considered.

I thought by announcing in thread that I was expecting to be the obv-nk, you guys would leave me alive . Thats why I chose to ambush instead of kill someone. In retrospect, I should have recognized I was already dead and tried to take tubby out with me. Raider had me completely fooled though... good playing raider.

Anyways, more on this tomorrow. This game makes my head hurt :S

[Rhinox]

Well, good game. Sorry about the day I was lynched, I gained an alternate win-con of lyncher (target was of course Rhinox) and I

did

have information that strongly hinted Rhinox as Occam's killer: the PM in which I was told of the new win condition said that I knew Rhinox to have killed my shepherd and that I had to have him lynched that day. Unfortunately I was also told that I cannot directly reference any PM from the mod, and I think I had borderline violated that anyway... Sorry about this, it was very clumsy play.

raider's claim was a bit off in retrospect, but congratulations on making it work wonderfully nonetheless. Was the Japanese thing only coincidence?

Hehe... that explains a lot. Fortunately for me, I like to think I'm pretty good at crumbing my roles, and I absolutely refuse to let myself get lynched

Seeing as we had tried to kill you before, I was convinced you knew about your immunity, the way you were announcing yourself as NK target. As you can read from the QT, i came *this* close to killing raider instead. Which would've saved me from the dilemma. -.-

Wow, yeah just read that. ugh, this game could have gone so many different ways. If I'd have ambushed N1, raider would have been killed. That would have changed everything!

So, Jebus, how many times would I have been able to kill? or was it based on some sort of luck or chance?

Freeko, I have nothing to say to you, other than for as long as I've been here, you're the first player I've come across where I can honestly say I hope I never see you in another one of my games. Ever.

Everyone else, I'll be looking forward to getting some revenge at some point . Vi, I think you and I on the same scum team would be a pretty unbeatable force to be reckoned with. pre-/in for ViPod Mafia btw, unless you already got me on the list.

*sigh*... I can't believe Tony and Raider were both scum, and tubby and freeko were innocent.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

So, Jebus, how many times would I have been able to kill? or was it based on some sort of luck or chance?

nvrmind, read it in the role postings.

Ya know, I started to think that it was a mental barrier thing. If anything, it is helpful, as it makes the vig think very carefully before just running around killing all willy nilly like. Bah.. still shoulda ambushed N1

[Rhinox]

[quote=korts]
I don't understand the freeko hate, myself, I thought he played quite well once he got over the tunnel-vision thing (ironically he was right about me--but for all the wrong reasons, seeing as I was a sheep and the watch didn't turn up anything, exactly as I said). Being an asshole is part of the game.
[/quote]

Theres a big difference between being an asshole as part of the game, and just being an asshole...

In other words, playing like an ass is all fine and dandy, but acting like an ass after the game is over makes me wish this site had an 'ignore' feature.

[Rhinox]

Of course I was not a good guy anyways.

"Not a good guy" = scum ... just not mafia

If you have not used up your one time bullet proof thing I would have been been a shoe in to win.

Well, I didn't even know I had it... But, had I chose to ambush N1 and target whoever targeted Occam, which I really wanted to, you would have been dead