Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 5)

[Gibdo]

Ok first post!
Generally, my reads so far are that DrNickRiviera and Elements seem most town to me. It's good to poke at the other players to get a feel for their playstyle before jumping to any conclusions.

I don't necessarily agree with voting on D1 but trying to turbo end DP1 without any kind of info gathering or reads is really scummy.

No major scum reads thus far, but if I had to point fingers it would probably go to VOTE: VOTE: RationalMadman because I just disagree with the game reasoning the user put forth overall. Mafia can't get too much of a PR read on DP1 since everyone is finding their footing anyway and posting without any real substance.

[Gibdo]

Ok first post!
Generally, my reads so far are that DrNickRiviera and Elements seem most town to me. It's good to poke at the other players to get a feel for their playstyle before jumping to any conclusions.

I don't necessarily agree with voting on D1 but trying to turbo end DP1 without any kind of info gathering or reads is really scummy.

No major scum reads thus far, but if I had to point fingers it would probably go to VOTE: VOTE: RationalMadman because I just disagree with the game reasoning the user put forth overall. Mafia can't get too much of a PR read on DP1 since everyone is finding their footing anyway and posting without any real substance.

you said you don't necessarily agree with voting someone out on Day 1 but you also voted Rational who has been the biggest advocate for not voting someone out, can you explain more on why? do you think your disagreement with Rational's takes mean he's more likely to be scum?

I think Rational is mostly just contributing to a line of discussion that isn't very productive for the town. (Elements was a little bit too, but I got the vibe that she was moreso trying to pick apart the idea, which seems towny to me.) I have a scummy-ish read on Rational but it could just be a more confrontational playstyle, idk.

[Gibdo]

I'm getting decent scum read from Hu Tao as well, but I'm not confident enough in changing my vote.

[Gibdo]

Dann and Elements (possibly can throw in Grovyle) are thinking almost exactly as I am, seem town enough for me for now

[Gibdo]

I've played a few games with only Dannflor, and maybe I'm misremembering, but criticizing others' reads of him doesn't seem like his scum playstyle.

[Gibdo]

It def seems Rational is pushing way too hard (let alone on D1) for him to turn scum. Annoying as though it may be.
UNVOTE:

@Dannflor and @Thomith, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts regarding your cCS votes.

[Gibdo]

I mostly agree, but I'm not comfortable writing off Rational as obvious town. If he's experienced as he has repeatedly claimed, it's still very possible he's just causing a huge scene now to mitigate suspicions on him later.

[Gibdo]

Honestly so am I. I’ve felt so disconnected from this game. I feel like a lot of the game is being dictated to me and not enough is me actually participating and developing reads.

I’m really trying to figure out why I’m not feeling it and fix it.

I feel this way a little bit too but I can't help but worry if stating it directly is a method of playing a bystander card and letting people point fingers and argue. Not that I'm scum-reading you.

[Gibdo]

I can get behind a KayJay vote if anyone wanted to start a wagon there

I'd actually be more apt to vote Hu Tao over KayJay. Still gonna refrain from voting because I'm not confident enough yet, but 640 just raises some alarm bells for me because I can think of a couple good reasons why you would not want to stop a mislim.

[Gibdo]

I actually don't see Dann pushing me like this as town, so I'm leaning scum on him now. I could understand a push but a tunnel like this is not like him ever.

Your reads are barely skin deep and I haven’t felt this certain about a scum read in a long while

It’s not like I’m really known to tunnel as scum either so I think you’re just grasping at straws

I don't like this reply

[Gibdo]

It's hard for me to imagine Dannflor jumping straight to counter-attacking a scummy read on him instead of trying to justify his thoughts, even if he does strongly suspect Hu Tao.

[Gibdo]

The KJQ slot I was feeling slightly towny about actually. I don't know what to expect of Black yet so I'll need to wait for more reads on her to reinforce my previous read on the slot.

[Gibdo]

I think it's noteworthy that Gibdo seems reluctant to vote for Hu Tao but he apparently had no issue voting for Rational for relatively weak reasons. In 710 he says he's refraining from voting for Hu because he's not confident but I'm having a hard time believing he was confident in his Rational read

Not only is he reluctant to vote for Hu but now he is chainsaw defending her

My Rational vote was made pretty early and was mostly just to see who else would wagon. I have bad vibes about Hu Tao but like I said, I'm not fond of fast elims. My play style is very informationally driven and not much in D1 has any substance since no deaths have happened.

[Gibdo]

My reads on players so far:

Elements - leaning towny, but vote flipping semi-often feels like she's searching for a wagon a little bit.
DrippingGoofball - idk, haven't heard enough
DrNickRiviera - also leaning town. or at least not very suspicious.

Grovyle - looking very town after reading his opinions in 1019

Hu Tao - my strongest scum read at the moment. 1035 feels almost ditzy and unnatural, and 1104 is frankly just a very poor argument.
Black - mostly a vibe read, but feels town

ActionDan - pretty towny introduction, seems to be closely analyzing the game, especially in 1054
Thomith - my biggest neutral read. nothing particularly scummy or towny
camelCasedSnivy - leaning scum, also a vibe read
Dannflor - feeling town. the reads he's drawing from hu tao and awesomeming have better-flowing logic than what i'm seeing from them.

awesomeming - probably scum. maybe 10880 is genuine but i feel it's more likely a scum thing to say.

[Gibdo]

It's safe to say that there's at least one town between Dannflor and Hu Tao from how hard they're going for each other's throats.

[Gibdo]

My reads on players so far:

Elements - leaning towny, but vote flipping semi-often feels like she's searching for a wagon a little bit.
DrippingGoofball - idk, haven't heard enough
DrNickRiviera - also leaning town. or at least not very suspicious.
Grovyle - looking very town after reading his opinions in 1019
Hu Tao - my strongest scum read at the moment. 1035 feels almost ditzy and unnatural, and 1104 is frankly just a very poor argument.
Black - mostly a vibe read, but feels town
ActionDan - pretty towny introduction, seems to be closely analyzing the game, especially in 1054
Thomith - my biggest neutral read. nothing particularly scummy or towny
camelCasedSnivy - leaning scum, also a vibe read
Dannflor - feeling town. the reads he's drawing from hu tao and awesomeming have better-flowing logic than what i'm seeing from them.
awesomeming - probably scum. maybe 10880 is genuine but i feel it's more likely a scum thing to say.

awesomeming post is supposed to be 1080, not 10880 of course.

[Gibdo]

And also switch my opinions for cCS and awesomeming. Jeez, what a nightmare of organization on my part.

[Gibdo]

Does that mean you're down to vote Awesomeming or only hu tao and CSS?

I didn't say I'd vote for Hu Tao or cCS. Those three are just my strongest vibes for mafia.

[Gibdo]

I'll take note of that mixup by Gibdo though, it's a scumslip potentially, due to (potentially) fabricating a readslist.

A reasonable thought.

[Gibdo]

1172 is WILD to me after everything that has come from Hu Tao.

[Gibdo]

VOTE: awesomeming327

I want to hear some really innocent-sounding arguments from awesomeming specifically regarding why he's reading Hu Tao as town and why he thinks "progression with dann is also good".

[Gibdo]

VOTE: Hu Tao
I'm not comfortable with Hu's start of D2 at all. Felt like an attempt to distract from the wagon on her more than anything. I also think it's a likely case that she'd NK Dannflor to take suspicion off herself a little bit.

[Gibdo]

This is laughable. If you can dish it then you certainly better be able to take it

Agree, this is pathetic.

[Gibdo]

He's adorable.

Actually he has big phat townie thoughts that he expresses at a near constant cadence

[Gibdo]

I do feel obligated to mention that Dannflor neighborized me in the night before he died and had some final thoughts to share that may be valuable to the town.

He revisited the conversations between Elements and awesomeming, and came to the conclusion that Elements is looking pretty town. In fact, his strongest townreads were RM, DGB, Thomith, Elements, and ActionDan. Scummiest reads were Grovyle, cCS, and Hu Tao.

His final thought was that Grovyle was starting to look more suspicious than Hu Tao was in his eyes.

[Gibdo]

Talk to me about Gibdo, everyone seems to be hard town reading him

Why would you be willing to vote him?

I can understand why Elements would be ok with voting me in the sense that I've been generally lurkier than other players, but it definitely does raise an eyebrow because I'd like to think that my posts have looked more town than my grandma looks pruny.

[Gibdo]

I think I'm also going to UNVOTE: Hu Tao, at least for now. The scum case for camelCasedSnivy is looking a lot stronger at the moment, especially after re-reading ActionDan's post 1439. Most town-driven analysis I've seen so far this game. I've had my suspicions on Grovyle too, as did Dannflor while he was alive, but I'm following his logic and largely agreeing on his takes for who is scum (see 1681), so I'm reading him slightly more town.

[Gibdo]

I do feel obligated to mention that Dannflor neighborized me in the night before he died and had some final thoughts to share that may be valuable to the town.

He revisited the conversations between Elements and awesomeming, and came to the conclusion that Elements is looking pretty town. In fact, his strongest townreads were RM, DGB, Thomith, Elements, and ActionDan. Scummiest reads were Grovyle, cCS, and Hu Tao.

His final thought was that Grovyle was starting to look more suspicious than Hu Tao was in his eyes.

did he give any reasons?

also I'm assuming then you did not really read daystart since I called for whoever was hooded to claim this asap

I definitely only skimmed it
He didn't give any concretely specific reason for suspecting you.

[Gibdo]

I haven't viewed Thomith as particularly scummy... as was said, he helped sway the vote onto awesomeming.

[Gibdo]

It is hard to get reads in this game. I still think mafia could be lurking between Hu Tao and DGB, Hu Tao because of the shifty D1 and DGB just because their playstyle feels a little TOO lurky... and I would have thrown camelCasedSnivy in there too, but I'll wait for Klick's thoughts before I make any further judgements there.

[Gibdo]

VOTE: Klick


1793 raises a few big red flags for me.

First, putting Hu Tao in the "Town" category would be a very scary and hasty conclusion for a town-aligned player to reach, especially when you consider the following:
- Dannflor, as the only confirmed town, hard tunneling her in D1 and getting NK'd right after
- She was one of the five players to NOT vote awesomeming after a clear ball drop

- 1774 wouldn't give a decent player enough information at all to read Hu Tao as town, if there's more to your read here Klick then I need to see it.


Second, after Klick replacing camelCasedSnivy (who was heavily scumread by most of us) and reading up on the game, I don't think a good enough case was presented for Thomith to match such a strong scumread on him. I'd have expected something far stronger than "this doesn't feel genuine" in 1777.


Thirdly, the reads on ActionDan are inconsistent between 1786 and 1793, especially for only being a couple hours apart. It gives the impression that town's favor is trying to be gained by agreeing with him while not actually acknowledging that ActionDan has been consistently making incredibly town-aligned posts.

[Gibdo]

This feels like a desperate Klick trying to save the slot by trying to fabricate a case against one of the less-strongly townread players (Thomith) and also try to take suspicion off of Hu Tao as much as possible.

Hu Tao's OMGUS-esque vote against Grovyle supports my theory.

[Gibdo]

I think the play is limming Klick first since both they and cCS look very scummy, and then move to Hu Tao for a D3 lim, assuming no drastic changes in behavior.
Thomith should have a close eye kept on him as well.

[Gibdo]

Day Triple Vigilante Kill:

Hu Tao, camelCasedSnivy, awesomeming

He may have been cookin'

[Gibdo]

I contrast it with this, which is a big wall of things that just serve to justify a vote that Gibdo clearly already wants to make

None of this actually says 'this makes Klick scum' and I don't think Gibdo believes in this as much as he wants to present something that looks competent

I feel like I laid out pretty clear-cut reasons why your posts would point to scum behavior. I was also reading your predecessor as mafia anyway, for reasons described pretty well in 1493. Besides, if I were scum here, it would make far more sense for me to lurk more than I am at the present moment since I am already being townread by most of the players. I certainly wouldn't feel any particular need to prove myself now.
You are correct about the first part though. This is definitely a vote I want to make.

[Gibdo]

I'm willing to compromise on Klick but I would prefer Hu Tao

I think Klick is probably the more secure vote for town, but Klick and Hu Tao are the ones I want limmed as well. I'm pretty firm on this.

[Gibdo]

Hu voted CCS at one point.

I'm going to fence sit on Hu until it matters. If Hu is scum, she is deliberately posting anything and everything off the cuff without filter. A lot of what she says when does this, like the above example, are not transparently scummy

This is the exact reason I'm slightly less confident about Hu being scum here than I am about Klick. Most of the posts coming from the two of them recently feel painfully scummy at worst and very awkward at best.

[Gibdo]

I kinda saw the Enchant NK coming...
I hate DGB's lim suggestions as things stand now though. Maybe I'll have to go back and reassess everyone's play thus far to get a fresh perspective.

[Gibdo]

I'm actually reading Hu Tao less as more town than I was before, after re-reading through her posts... it just feels too nonchalant for scum gameplay, but maybe that's just her playstyle? Can someone attest to that? Also, is there a world where DGB is scum here?

[Gibdo]

I'm VT as well

[Gibdo]

I'm inclined to believe claim from DrNick. Grovyle and DGB claims are looking less comfortably town...? Unless I'm missing something?

[Gibdo]

I think Smiley is making way too much sense to be scum here. My town read on Grov started fading a bit after the D3 lim on Hu Tao anyway. I at least want to give Grovyle time after finals before I commit my vote there.

[Gibdo]

We're getting good info either way we vote here and town can still afford to flip a green I think. VOTE: DGB

[Gibdo]

I'm tempted to vote Grovyle off here but I've been townreading him at pretty much every other point in the game so Smiley honestly seems like the safest choice.

[Gibdo]

All I know is I trust Black and Aureal

[Gibdo]

I at least trust as much as I can for 6 left alive. It's hard to imagine that the game would play out like it has with you as scum. There's definitely at least one scum between Grovyle and Smiley, and it's not impossible for Gypyx to flip red either, but one of my stronger suspicions is actually that Grov is bussing Smiley as his partner. Considering that there are few other strong scumreads amongst the town, I don't think it's out of the question that he's trying to get some town cred.

[Gibdo]

So in the last day... between DGB and DrNick, the NK was definitely stopped, as their targets were Grovyle and Smiley, respectively. Since DGB and DrNick have both flipped town we can confirm this is the case. This would also mean that Grovyle and Smiley should be going for each other's throats right now, as if either of them are town, they would know that a scum role lies with the other person... the only way both of them would be ignoring this is if they are red together.

[Gibdo]

Is anything about that incorrect?

[Gibdo]

This is why Grovyle suddenly harping on Gypyx from a "guilty" is so strange to me.