Read Your Role Mafia - Game Over

[forbiddanlight]

Vote petroleumjelly

Obvscum.

[forbiddanlight]

Hell yeah. Mind Screw was really fun when I did that.

forbiddan: O HAI! I'm gonna Vote Tar
Tar: Modkill
username: DON'T VOTE TAR!!!!!!!
forbiddan proceeds to use her role and end up screwing the game over for town

Mod Note: Fixed quote tag. Purposefully did not fix dice tag since it was referenced in-thread.

[forbiddanlight]

But I am voting PJ. I'm voting petroleumjelly!

[forbiddanlight]

Huh? Why did you do a vote count one hour later with nothing changing? I'm confused!

[forbiddanlight]

Tar lets you lynch the mod! Oh, alright, fine.

Vote Natirasha

for not posting or voting yet.

[forbiddanlight]

I wonder if the mafia can recruit. Caboose appears to have finally gotten around to posting though .

[forbiddanlight]

Oh dear. Stupid written day cult .

[forbiddanlight]

I wonder if the mafia can recruit.

Bit of an odd thing to be wondering, isn't it? You know, given the posted role PMs and who our mod is.

That was a joke, actually. In the worst roles thread PokerFace came up with a "written day recruiter" role that could only recruit by writing recruit playername somewhere in their post. The interesting version let you sneak it in somehow. Caboose brought up the example of "I wonder if the mafia can recruit. Caboose seems to be the first player on the list, so vote Caboose". I changed the latter part to fit the context, but it was essentially a joke, and Caboose caught on to it (hence the "day vig")

[forbiddanlight]

It was a joke. I was only making it cause Caboose was here. There is LIKELY no recruitment.

[forbiddanlight]

Almost did. But I highly doubted you would do that. You aren't me.

Future note. If I'm ever a day vig, someone will be dead in my first post.

[forbiddanlight]

Nat's third on his own wagon!

OBVIOUS SCUM!

[forbiddanlight]

Fong's gambit?

Unvote, Vote Sens

Feels like a good idea .

[forbiddanlight]

Why would a pro-Town role ever vote themselves?

Fong's gambit is the only REASON I can think of...or being Natirasha. He does it EVERY GAME.

[forbiddanlight]

Cool, so no reason. Seraphim just demonstrated why anti-Town roles would vote themselves.

You do realize how stupid this whole argument sounds, right? Either Nat engages in Fong's Gambit (wiki it) every game...or he just has a META OF BEING SUICIDAL! Or at least self voting.

[forbiddanlight]

Because Anti-town != scum.

[forbiddanlight]

No. I personally don't like a "policy lynch Nat" attitude. I like a "let's actually scum hunt and get information, and come to a LOGICAL conclusion if we must lynch anyone, even Nat".

[forbiddanlight]

We could bandwagon Sens. I like my "taking Fong's gambit" reasoning .

[forbiddanlight]

I know. That was Yaw. I'm kinda screwing around still since I really don't expect the wagon on you to gain traction. Though it WOULD generate info if it DID :S.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't take anyones townieness for granted unless I'm a sane cop who investigated them or I'm their mason buddy. You really can't make such a call at this point IMO. I'm not sure Nat's town, but the whole argument concerning his self vote was stupid.

[forbiddanlight]

Because there's reasonably harmless meta, and there is freaking retarded meta. If you did that, no one would join games with you.

[forbiddanlight]

!!!taht seod taht tla na ekam yllatot dluohs I

[forbiddanlight]

Nope. But it was sure fun. Thinking on it, the way charter is pushing pro town sens is unsettling.

Unvote, vote charter

[forbiddanlight]

Hove you ever attempted herding cats, Caboose? Because that is a FAR easier task than convincing Nat to change his meta.

[forbiddanlight]

forbidden, why wait so long to vote me?

Wasn't that long. I was still torn between Sens Fan and you at the time. And also distracted while I was posting. Also, last time someone asserted someone else was town, they were masons. But, I disregarded that for the fact that you could still use pressure.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow...I really do post way too much, lol. But, that won't continue for a little bit:

I'd like to mention I'm going V/LA starting Thursday, but I'm going to be low activity most of this week anyway. I should be back monday.

[forbiddanlight]

Unfortunately I tend to have a fair amount of that. I tend to get accused of high signal to noise *sigh*

[forbiddanlight]

Posty lot, aren't ye *sarcasm*. If I were here, we'd totally be on page 15 by now. But, we have some content. I think that the supposed attack on Nat for "no urgency to post" is bull. I haven't seen anything from charter trying to defend himself, which is odd. Did I miss a post or something? ooba has been fairly townie as wolf said. My brain is still fried and I reserve the right to change my mind. Tomorrow I'll have a more solid read. (10 hours of sleep since Thursday)

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't say that I think Nat was scummy for saying that, I just said that it pissed me off.

Interesting defensiveness.

Especially since I meant the original attack, not your attack. Someone used that term first.

[forbiddanlight]

Because you weren't called into question, that's all. It's interesting to note, I thought. I'm not starting a crusade based on it, since I can understand the misunderstanding. I just thought it was clear.

[forbiddanlight]

post 130

Oh your deflection. Yeah, no.

Vote stands.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, your defense is fine. It's that lovely part where you randomly throw the ball to ooba with minimal explanation. And that's now why I'm voting you.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah...even if it's his meta, his active lurking is a GREAT way to push a mislynch. for now,

Unvote, Vote MafiaSSK

,

FoS charter

[forbiddanlight]

I thought it'd be enough to warrant at least a vote. Probably not a whole lynch.

Well, there's still the fact you conveniently forgot this game after the charter wagon started :S. I'm keeping my vote.

[forbiddanlight]

I think Yaw has some good points, but I'm still more in favor of an SSK lynch. He comes out, gives us a little tidbit, and then disappears. He sits and makes us wait for this magical meta, and then, convienently, right before deadline, he comes back to use with these "rereading..." posts (stalling tactic) and then just parrots what he said before until finally concedeing that he doesn't have that strong of a case on charter. Call my scummeter broken (you won't be the first to do so), but I read that as a shenanigan to distract the town while using up as much time as he can.

Most of this. I still don't like Electra suggesting no lynch, but supposedly this was an old school meta since you used to have night starts? I could believe that.

[forbiddanlight]

What? That didn't make sense.

I'm around 85% sure SocioPath is scum. Bandwagon him.

Why? Could you please point out what makes him scum? And not just say read his posts in isolation?

I'm fine with an SSK lynch, but if Yaw can actually support the SP one (and I also agree after reading SP in isolation), I think it would be a better lynch since there would likely be more of a case and more information.

[forbiddanlight]

After reread SP as well as considering Yaw's case, I agree that Sociopath is a better lynch than SSK

Unvote, Vote Sociopath

I'll explain more later. I have to make dinner.

[forbiddanlight]

Anyway, the explain more is essentially reiterating a lot of what Yaw said. For the most part, it feels like Sociopath is trying to push "Any lynch he can get" and also possibly pushing counterwagons to avoid troublesome lynches (for him). The ooba case felt weak and only got weaker as you tried to further justify it. The current electra case seems to be trying to play off the fact people don't like no lynch. I was actually half ready to attack her for that myself until it was pointed out she has older player meta where no lynch would be done on a day start. I'm willing to accept that and look for other scum tells if she drops them. I disagree with your WIFOM case for the most part. And thusly, that is why I'm voting you, SP. Also, I'd like to state you really SHOULD full claim.

[forbiddanlight]

forbidden (or anyone other than me, for the sake of making sure SP doesn't call it OMGUS), do you agree with how bad it was that I'm supposedly scummy for posting 2 mins after him?

Scuminess is scuminess. If you were voting him for scuminess (which as far as I can tell you were), then it's pretty clear that the time shouldn't matter. That's a fallacy to claim that because someone did something quickly it makes them scummy.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, the only way I could figure to use my role effectively is to one if I'd been role blocked for one of the nights, or to convince scum somehow to NK me since they would know to an extent that I was a power role, up until I full claimed. Me eatting a bullet because of scum thinking I'm some big juicy power role would have been fine with me, cause I'm not really much more useful than a townie.

So, you probably should have lied. Useless, and unbelieveable. Happy with my vote.

[forbiddanlight]

On the subject of SSK, I find it unlikely that Mafia says things like "do whatever you want, lynch me." Town is much more likely to do something like that, or an SK. The reason is that town and sk have no ties, if they get lynched, then they can just be like, whatever, the town was dumb. In terms of Mafia, they would be letting their partners down if they threw in the towel, so it's just socially less acceptable. :p

I'm sorry, but this IS WIFOM. I personally pride myself on being able to have no ties to my partners no matter how badly I play. I would likely welcome death if I thought it was imminent, part to play on this naivety that only townies/SKs are willing to say "Ok, lynch me", and part to confuse the hell out of town when I flip.

[forbiddanlight]

The point is, no one besides me thinks that Mafia is less likely to do this, so it's not going to confuse anyone else, so Mafia are still less likely to do it. :p

I just feel like everyone's so in love with the concept of WIFOM that they ignore that sometimes Mafia and town ARE more likely to do specific things. But I don't really want to argue about this, this is just why I don't find SSK to be scummy.

Actually, I'm using my personal attitude to figure things out. I know that I'd do it, especially if people took it as a town tell like you are.

I've never been much for lying, which is anti-town anyways, so another reason why I abstain from it. I can be anti-town all on my own thank you.

Is it anti town for a doctor to claim something else to avoid drawing a night kill? In fact, lots of power roles lie so that they can be more effective. I'm not a great liar myself, but I know when to lie and when not to lie. But more importantly, since you QUALIFIED your supposed truth with the fact you wanted the scum to kill you by seeming powerful, it's intuitive that you should have lied, which makes your claim less believable.

[forbiddanlight]

and if we have nothing promising by then we can go with the more obvious lynch.

Careful with this. We don't know when lylo is, and while I doubt it's now, we can't let a survivor live to lylo. I'm not sure how useful I'll be for the next few days (My sister is getting married on the 31st and things are busy up to then). However, I will try to contribute as I can, and return to full speed after that.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, one of those deaths last night appears to have been self-inflicted, so I'm not convinced there would be two more deaths. (Read ShadowGirl's role again.)

I'm aware of that. It's just multiple factions that worries me

At any rate, the main purpose in saying that was that I expected to see a big push to lynch SSK right out of the gate, and felt that was rather useless while he isn't around. Apparently I was wrong for thinking that would happen. I agree that SSK shouldn't be living until lylo (and absolutely should not be allowed to lurk until lylo), but if he is telling the truth about his role than lynching scum is better than lynching a survivor. That assumes we have a good lead, of course.

Mostly agree with this, but I kinda have a lynch all survivors attitude since mind screw. I'm willing to give him a chance to be pro town though.

[forbiddanlight]

The claim seemed very unbelievable, and also the fact that he appeared to be pushing weak cases to get a D1 mislynch.

[forbiddanlight]

Four factions, right? Couldn't it be Town, Mafia, SSK, ShadowGirl?

That's entirely possible. Well, at least 4. Well, long as we don't leave him alive at lylo.

[forbiddanlight]

To be fair, townies should have no fear explaining reasonings whether they are being called to it by town or scum. Otherwise, I think you have a pretty good point there Sensfan.

[forbiddanlight]

umu...who's Sephiroth? This isn't FF VII Mafia y'know .

[forbiddanlight]

Jeez, I really must be over extending myself. This is the third game I've semi forgotten in the past week or so :S. This is not reflecting well. Well, I did pick up my prod, let me take a look at what's happened recently.

[forbiddanlight]

Upon reread, I like an SSK lynch, so

Vote MafiaSSK

. Furthermore, I think the Seraphim is scummy and trying far too hard to paint a scumteam that just isn't really there. His actions also feel inconsistent, going after a Yaw/ SSK scumpair and then voting Electra because he "promised". This also feels like trying to look townie because he "keeps his word". Not sure what other conclusions to draw thus far.

[forbiddanlight]

Why do you like a MafiaSSK lynch? You vote for MafiaSSK but spend the entire post attacking me. And seeing as I've already posted my defense on all of your points, I don't feel a need to repeat myself.

And I don't think your defense really fits. I'll try to get more specific when I have more time. As for MafiaSSK, he's first a claimed survivor, and second, has been incredibly scummy in that he hasn't said anything helpful and he hasn't even been trying to put his thoughts out there.

[forbiddanlight]

Wolf. What you fail to realize here is that SSK might as well be Scum, for all intents and purposes. Even if he actually is a Survivor (which we don't know), he will flip to Scum at LyLo.

Basically this. Remember earlier I wanted an SSK lynch before lylo. I personally think what he's contributed (or not) today isn't worth keeping him alive any longer.

[forbiddanlight]

That's L-1, by the way, if my count is correct.

[forbiddanlight]

He's claimed already.

I'm worried more about closing discussion before we have to. we have enough on him for a deadline lynch +1. No one needs to hammer unless we are done talking for the day. I think that's a fair concern, ne?

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddan, if the majority of the people agree on lynching SSK, is there really a lot more discussion that needs to be done?

On other suspicions beyond SSK. I owe Seraphim more specifics on why I didn't like his defense, which means I need to reread it beyond my cursory glance that had it not sitting well with me. This might take a little bit, but shouldn't be too long. I suppose I'll knuckle down and do it.

[forbiddanlight]

And just in case you haven't noticed, all the roles are really ridiculous in this game. If the example and the dead are any indicator, some of the roles are really weird. I found SP's claim perfectly acceptable in the context of the game.

First thing that doesn't sit well. I know the roles will be weird, but that weird? We also didn't have any flips at that time. At best, you could figure in the example, but I see weird roles like that all the time for examples and the real roles be normal. I have a few theories about what this could mean, but it twigs me none the less.

lost a good chunk of it, which included my attack on Electra

I put the two posts next to each other to prove that, despite being caught in a serious lie, no one has accused him of lying yet. Not even that day was he accused. I wanted an Electra lynch. I still want an Electra lynch. But if MafiaSSK is the better lynch, I will vote for him.

Also, my bad on the vote. That was a typo...

You obviously intended to vote electra like you said. Why pass off your switch as a typo? This feels weird.

I'm not saying you're scum, I'm saying that you can't use that argument to argue that you're not scum. Scum can change wagons too.

You quoted Yaw here, after you had said:

I have a theory. I think that it's entirely possible that MafiaSSK and Yaw are scumbuddies. Here's the idea:

The uncertainty makes it not directly a contradiction, but it feels like it.

Once again, I'm not questioning the original case on SP. You're absolutely correct about that. What I didn't like was

A. How you introduced it.
B. How you didn't back down even though the MafiaSSK case was still salvagable after SP's roleclaim

To be fair, SPs roleclaim felt scummy, and I see no reason for Yaw to have tried to get off SP for it. I don't think Yaw bought the claim either IIRC.

Agreed. I am merely proving a point(and unintentionally making a very strong case against MafiaSSK) that no one changed their vote after MafiaSSK claimed survivor. And I'm a little disturbed by that.

We thought we had scum in front of us is my guess. I actually didn't really notice SSK's survivor claim.

As for Electra...yes, I still believe she is very likely scum. However, for the good of the town, I believe that MafiaSSK should be lynched. How the hell was I wishy-washy on her? I changed my bandwagon; isn't that what you did?

I might have missed this earlier, but why?

And that's basically what I didn't like.

[forbiddanlight]

I'll give FL time to explain any more specifics she wants before hammering.

I'm done, though Seraphim probably wants to respond.

[forbiddanlight]

Isn't discussion for the most part pro town? Townies use the day as their tool to fight scum. There's no point ending the day early if there are things to be said. If everyone is ok with ending then day, then a hammer is justified. I'm ambivalent myself, since I've said my piece, I'd just like to see more people checking in.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I laid out my reasoning yesterday.

Vote Seraphim

[forbiddanlight]

Jelly is pretty much saying that some of the roles will be really, really weird. At least, that's my way of looking at it.

I'll let this one settle.

2) I agree, this does look rather bad on my part. However, the rest of the post is lost to the voids of computer data, never to be found again. I suppose I wanted to make it look like a mistake because I didn't want to seem indecisive. When I made that edit...well, it was more of a pride thing, I suppose. In hindsight, after I had made that half-of-a-post and had noticed my case leads towards a MafiaSSK lynch as opposed to an Electra lynch. Instead of retyping my post, I instead made it look like that was my intention all along. Which was a major, major gaffe.

Admitting it doesn't make it right. We don't know precisely where your post was going and we won't find out. I don't think my point was invalid.

3) I'm not I understand quite what you're saying. Do you mind clarifying?

You said you didn't say Yaw was scum, but in that earlier post, you said he was. It's somewhat of a contradiction.

4) I suppose that's a viewpoint I don't share with you, Miss Light.

Well, that's not as much the problem as the problem of the motives you were ascribing Yaw for not believing SP's roleclaim. So just because someone claims he's supposed to automatically jump off and go on another wagon? Considering no one really observed SSK claiming survivor, I think point 5 kinda covers this as well..

5) Fair enough, fair enough.

This wasn't a point against you so I'm not sure why I pointed it out, lol.

6) Summary post for that coming up. I'm going to reread the entire game and post my new findings and my case against Electra once again. This reread will also put the game into perspective for me, as charter has been revealed to be scum.

Fine. I'm keeping my vote on you for the time being since everyone else seems to want to lynch Electra.

Why would you automatically think it is a pro-town vigilante electra? Even if you did say "maybe" it is an odd conclusion to immediately jump to.

This.

FoS Electra

[forbiddanlight]

Uh... when I see roles that are antitown being killed, I like to hope that there are protown vigs. I know that it's probably actually an SK, but I have wishful thinking.

backtrack.

[forbiddanlight]

You were at L-3. Did you REALLY need to claim?

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't claim because of votes, I claimed because I have a result?

Then why didn't you claim earlier when you first posted if it's so important?

[forbiddanlight]

Explain exactly how your claimed role works. No one else talk about his result or his role until this is answered.

There was one more thing I wanted to ask (well, right now), but I agree with this, Sens.

Well, except for the fact you failed to read Electra's gender symbol (or the gendered connotations of her name for that matter). But, overall, I agree.

[forbiddanlight]

Because it doesn't say that Seraphim is scum, I am deducing it based off my assumption that Sens is town and I wanted other people's opinions on this issue before I claimed but no one responded besides Seraphim, and there was no point to just sitting here waiting for nothing.

Fair enough.

Every night I submit a name and I get told if the person I submitted is the same alignment as the last person I submitted. The first night I get told that it's not the same, but since I don't have a submission before that, it's meaningless.

Night 1: Sens
Night 2: Seraphim - not same

Why didn't you target yourself?

[forbiddanlight]

Hmm...wanna revise your opinion on Sens, Electra? I normally wouldn't believe you, but given the flips so far, it's very plausible. Not liking Sens' reaction.

[forbiddanlight]

Still want Seraphim's response though.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm pretty sure I explained very clearly why I called her choice poor, actually, but nice misrep. I asked her to explain the EXACT mechanics of her role, and only after people questionned her choice (of which I was not the first to do, by the way) did she mention that she couldn't self-target.

No, actually, you never said a word about why choosing you was a poor choice. In fact, I probably came closer to asking why than you ever did.

Sorry, I thought I had commented on it, but I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking about the same thing forbiddan was.

Nothing is obvious in mafia. reread your own posts before attacking someone calling you out.

So, you're just hung up on the fact that Electra added a small detail after FL asked Electra why Electra didn't target herself?

this.

Waiting on Seraphim but might switch to Sens if this keeps up.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not sure if I want to completely rethink my opinion of Sens yet, but his reaction is definitely scum-ish and Seraphim's reaction so far has been more town. Of course Seraphim had the luxury of reacting after several people responded.

I am confused by Sens's reaction because he voted Seraphim yesterday, indicating that he thought Seraphim was scum. If he were town, then my claim should be the nail in the coffin or whatever that phrase is - he should take this as Seraphim definitely being scum. However, he's attacking me instead. I can't really think of a reason for him to do so if he were town.

Well, I can see a couple scenarios where SEns town might do it. I see far more where sens scum might do it. I want him to answer this why he reacted the way he did.

Yeah, I don't like the change of details. I still like myu vote. I think I should say that its easy to sound townie when you only make one short post that says it'll give a response Monday.

And the fact it's Monday. Sure it didn't say they were the same alignment, Electra ?

[forbiddanlight]

You have it backwards. Her choice makes no sense under the original role given. When she was critisized for that, she THEN added a restriction that makes her choices look better.

To be honest, I think you are nitpicking, and possibly she didn't think that she needed to say that at first.

[forbiddanlight]

I definitely was not aware that it became the standard to include 'I can't target myself' in a role claim. To avoid any future confusion, I also can't target dead players, players not in this game, the mod, celebrities, and trees.

What about fire?

[forbiddanlight]

In the end, I have to move this way myself.

Unvote, Vote Sens Fan

[forbiddanlight]

It's simple; if SensFan flips town, then Electra is scum.

If SensFan is scum, then Electra is mostly likely town.

Vote stands. SensFan, now is a good time to claim.

You are the only one who knows if this is true or not. I'm not one to be all like "Yesh, I buy this completely". I'll re examine everyone outside the context of their claims based on Sens' flip.

[forbiddanlight]

Why would Seraphim want to lynch a confirmed townie (to himself). Seriously, talk about read your role .

[forbiddanlight]

He is claiming that I should be lynched because it will tell HIM who the Scum is. By the logic, he should be lynched because it will tell me who the Scum is.

One problem. You both know your roles. Meaning his logic doesn't apply the way you are stating it.

[forbiddanlight]

He knows his alignment. He doesn't know yours. Your lynch will reveal to him who is scum. Therefore, his lynch won't (to him). However, from your perspective, it's reversed.

[forbiddanlight]

Why should his perspective be worth a damn, though? I just don't see how he can possibly justify demanding a claim for me on the basis that lynching me will tell him (and only him) that Electra is Scum.

Preferably, you should be claiming because you are at L-1. Not because Seraphim wants to know who is scum.

[forbiddanlight]

You see me as having 1/2 chance of being Scum, statistically. How is that "very likely"?

forbiddan, I'm not claiming until tomorrow, at least, after I've defended myself.

Fair nuff. But make sure to claim before deadline.

[forbiddanlight]

FL I think you are shooting smoke. You make an argument from Seraph´s POV that applies in completly the same way from Sens´POV.

So I think FL is taken a bullshit stance logically. Doesn{t prove it right or wrong, but still bullshit.

Your point? And actually, it was bullshit combating bullshit from sens.

Sens defense just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repetition is doing much for you.

[forbiddanlight]

The attack on Sens just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repitition is doing much for the town.

The attack on Sens is backed up by scummy actions as well as a role.

[forbiddanlight]

scummy actions = attacking a convinient change on a weak claim
role = weak claim that changed to accomodate criticism

Yeah...right

If everyone on my wagon +1 asks for one, yes.

Thanks for being unhelpful. I have no qualms about a hammer at this point in time.

[forbiddanlight]

Really? That's ridiculous. How is it unhelpful to ensure that, you know, I will be lynched without claiming, before I claim. I mean, that's kinda the only time you should claim...

You have summarily refused to claim, unless I misread your post? You appear to be saying "Screw you guys, hammer me and I'll claim".

[forbiddanlight]

No. I said if everyone on my wagon and 1 person who is not on my wagon asks me to claim, I will.

Fine, misunderstanding. It's still unnecessarily obstructionist as deadline approaches. You feel like you are stalling because you think you'll just blow us away with your claim. You realize that you seem more and more anti town the more you delay it while at L-1, right? Because the more you delay, the less time we have to vote on a different candidate should we choose to believe your role. I believe it is in the town's best interests for you to claim soonest, so that we may assess it and have time to switch if we like it.

(Note, another possibility is you are trying to come up with a fakeclaim that's believable and want more time to do it)

[forbiddanlight]

I can understand now why you don't buy Electra's claim. Hmm...rumination is required.

Unvote...

for now.

[forbiddanlight]

What's your alignment?

Good point...I keep forgetting the at least 4 alignments clause in this game. I'll keep my unvote since Sens is still at L-2.

[forbiddanlight]

...*sigh*.

Ok, I've come to a conclusion that will likely be unpopular

Vote Sens Fan

. The way he's defending his claim feels a lot like crap logic and false comparison. "Oh, well Watchers/Trackers/ Role cops can be scum roles too", rather than explaining why the way he used it benefits the town...I don't think I'm explaining it properly, but it feels like Sens is the liar.

Yes, it is still possible Seraphim is lying about his alignment, even if he didn't kill anyone last night (and instead someone else sent the kill)...it's just I feel more vibes from sens then seraphim. I feel the least scum vibes from Electra out of the three.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, another reason I'm voting Sens is Empking's actions. EVERYTHING Emp has said is a DIRECT defense of sens, as if sens can't defend himself. I actually would support an empking lynch if we leave those three alive.

As for lynching seraphim, Logically, that's the right play, but...given my read of the two of them I lean sens at the moment.

The argument against me was literally "That role could benefit Scum, thus Scum role." How is "That can be said of any claim (including Electra's, given the multiple alignments" not a fair defense.

And obviously the use of my role, just like any Tracker/Watcher/Role Cop/Electra's Role/etc... is to bust fakeclaims.

It felt weird, to be honest. I can't explain WHY it felt weird, but it does. I can fully understand if I'm not going to be able to push your lynch because I can't back it up well. But...I dunno, your defense felt awkwardly...not formal, but by the book kinda?

How is it a false comparison?

Mostly the fact that 2 of those three roles have a meta of being protown, I believe.

[forbiddanlight]

First of all, no. More importantly, though, this role has no meta.

Making your comparison invalid

That's right. I haven't decided yet, although I lean towards Seraphim or forbiddan.

Reason for the FL suspicion?

OMGUS, pretty clearly. Which makes me feel better.

[forbiddanlight]

"The role could help Scum, so its probably Scum, I think. I can't really explain it. Oh, and you can't compare it to the roles it was probably based off of, since they have a meta of being Town."

ie, OMGUS. Anyone who's played with me will quite well realize I ALWAYS have this problem, and it frustrates me when I'm right.

[forbiddanlight]

a) I don't believe I've every played with you
b) You just admitted my reasoning wasn't OMGUS
c) You threw in Appeal to Emotion

c. AtEs are rarely a true scumtell and I try to avoid using it as one.

b) Um...where? I said it WAS

a) You might not of, in which case others will have to back me up.

Like I said, we don't NEED to lynch any of you three. Empking is a pretty good candidate too.

[forbiddanlight]

c) "Oh, I hate it when I'm right and no one believes me!" Want to explain what purpose that serves, other than try and get a 'sympathy vote'?
b) You said "Yeah, OMGUS". Thing is, what I described is not OMGUS...
a) Can you at least explain exactly what "this problem" is?

c) As I said, AtEs are rarely as scumtell. Do better
b) No, it pretty much is with crappy reasoning
a) Not having the words to describe JUST what's wrong with your behavior, just that it feels off.

[forbiddanlight]

c) Way to avoid the question. "Oh, I hate it when I'm right and no one believes me!" Want to explain what purpose that serves, other than try and get a 'sympathy vote'?
b) I gave very clear reasoning for why I am voting you. Your reasoning is crap, you can't even pretend to back it up, and you are not allowing me to even point in the direction of the roles my role was based off of.
a) Yeah, of course...

c) As I said, it doesn't matter. And the fact you are using such an idiotic point annoys me. FURTHERMORE, it's cluing people in on a self aware meta that they can check if they so desire. If you really want an answer for using a shitty scumtell. Like my vote

b) So, since when did you read Pjs mind and decide that your role was based on these things? Further more, I don't think your reasoning is viable at all.

a) Well, it should have been obvious

[forbiddanlight]

c) I answered it. Read

b) Actually, I've found rolecop purpose is to find targets for scum. As for trackers/watchers, I thought they were just a clever way to catch scum "in the act", i.e a nerfed cop

a) Depends on the post. Yours have been harder to pin. And there are others for me as well.

[forbiddanlight]

"As for trackers/watchers, I thought they were just a clever way to catch scum "in the act", i.e a nerfed cop" is basically exactly what I do...

c) "it doesn't matter" is not at all a valid response to "What purpose does XXX serve, if not to get sympathy?"

Former is a backtrack

Latter means you didn't read it. Read ALL of c, not just some of the convenient parts.

[forbiddanlight]

Ummm, not at all. "My role is just like X and Y" "Really? X and Y do THIS" "Yeah, THIS is basically what I do..." OMGOBVSCUM BACKTRACK LOLOLOL!"

I don't care if you think its a scumtell, so I ignored that part. And no, "OMG NO ONE EVER BELIEVES ME AND I HATE IT" is not "cluing people in on a self-aware meta", that was the first part of your statement, which fits under a, I believe.

Except you said something completely different than what you initially said.

Actually, it is. But apparently we disagree. Odds are because I'm town and you're scum ^-^.

[forbiddanlight]

Lol. Mind explaining what the difference is the-Oh wait, I'm sorry. I completely forgot that you never ever ever explain anything and that its so hard for you when you're Town and happen to be right, because those big baddies don't listen to you when you don't explain anything.

No, this time the difference is clear

"Oh, I bust scum fakeclaims"

" I thought rolecops were for scum to find targets, and watcher/trackers are nerfed cops"

"OH YEAH! THAT'S it"

[forbiddanlight]

bust fakeclaims=nerfed cops. Or, as you put it, catch people in the act of fakeclaiming. Which is what I've said my role does all along.

No, I actually said catch them in the act. As in of killing. Don't put words in my mouth ,scum!

[forbiddanlight]

Really? Not only would that make Trackers/Watchers much worse, but do you really fault me for misunderstanding what "catch them in the act" meant, seeing as they literally catch people fakeclaiming?

I have never seen a tracker/watcher catch a fakeclaim beyond scum claiming townie. Honestly, I thought it was obvious what I meant, and I think you did a purposeful misrep.

[forbiddanlight]

The bolded part is EXACTLY what my role does. Like, no-doubt-about-it exactly.

Also, could you answer Electra's question?

But as for that, it doesn't appear to do it well.

[forbiddanlight]

Really? I mean, it kinda tells me if someone is or is not a Townie/PR, and REALLY fucks with Scum who try to fakeclaim. More importantly, there's an eveb better way of catching Scum with it, but I'd rather not specify, in case they haven't realized it.

Fair enough.

Yeah, Seraphim is my second choice, followed by you.

If I can't lynch forbiddan, I'd rather be taking steps towards figuring out the Scum in Electra/Seraphim.

I have to pretty much agree with this. Seraphim and Electra, in that order for me (after you, Sens )

[forbiddanlight]

Townie survivor/one shot vig? That's weird, yet awesome .

[forbiddanlight]

I do not have to be alive to win. BUT if I were the only person to survive (I don't know how that would happen anyways), then I would lose. At lest one pro-town player has to survive for me to win.

Now it's just weird. Why not just be town?

[forbiddanlight]

...22 hours!? Oh shit!

Unvote, vote wolf

Whatever I may think, there really isn't much point continuing pushing it with so little time left. I'm assuming wolf has the most votes.

[forbiddanlight]

lol, go pj. Actually, Sens apparently had the most before I unvoted, which really wasn't saying much.

In which case,

Unvote, vote Sensfan

. It's still possible!

[forbiddanlight]

Depending on how the votes are going tomorrow before I go to school, I'll reassess my vote.

[forbiddanlight]

Pretty sure wolf is town. Far too easy for him to jump on the sens wagon for the lynch, yet he's chosen not to. I still say Sens is the play. Keeping my vote since you have enough for a deadline lynch on wolf.

[forbiddanlight]

Nyeh, well, that was odd. It was a fun concept, I think. Surprised the mafia killed me since I was coming off as scummy near the end there, and my activity really was much lower than usual. Either way, it was a good game and I love a game that gets down to F3. Fun to watch the tension crackling.

[forbiddanlight]

So, why was I killed?