Read Your Role Mafia - Game Over

[SensFan]

I personally believe Electra's claim

Any particular reason you believe a prematre, unprompted, claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

[Tamuz]

Ok, so I´m caught up completely.


First... I think that the kill on charter was very likely to be a vengeful on the part of MafiaSSK. His role makes me feel this to be the case. If this is true, that means, to me, that we have solely 1 killing group. Our other kills seem to be vengeful and
modkill related

Given, this is conjuncture, but it seems most likely to me


And I just have to say that both previous lynches have been make on evidence much like today´s. Evidence that was not solid, its was "he said she said." And both of those ended in a mislynch.

Today we have a cop claim saying that Sens and Seraph are " of DIFFERENT alignments" not 1 is scum, 1 is town. Lets keep that distinction in mind. I don´t feel attention is being paid there.

FL I think you are shooting smoke. You make an argument from Seraph´s POV that applies in completly the same way from Sens´POV.

So I think FL is taken a bullshit stance logically. Doesn{t prove it right or wrong, but still bullshit.


Now... as to the meat of today we have to look at things:
"Cop" Claim--- Do we believe it?
What does "different alignments" mean in a game where we are assured 4 alignments?
How do we deal with our answer to the above?
Is testing a person the best way to go?
(remember we could test Sens, find innocent, think we have Seraph nails... he can be innocent as well and we are left with Electrascum laughing at us, or similar situations causing one mislynch)

[Electra]

I personally believe Electra's claim

Any particular reason you believe a prematre, unprompted, claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

What more suspicious?

Situation A:

People: random stuff
Electra: Hey guys I have a result that might be useful to the town!

Situation B:

People: OMG ELECTRA DIE DIE SCUM CLAIM
Electra: Hey, I'm a cop also I have investigation results that might be helpful but I didn't feel like mentioning it earlier.


@ Tamuz - I had to reread your post several times to make sense of it. I'm not sure about Shadowgirl's modkill - while it did say she could be modkilled, it told her what would cause this, and so I think she would probably prevent it?

As for saying different alignments... Seraphim has claimed vanilla. Sens has yet to claim, but at this point, if he claims a role with a weird alignment, I will find this very suspicious since he completely does not believe my claim.

It's not a matter of testing exactly. It's about deciding who is more suspicious. We shouldn't lynch blindly, I just thought this would help us narrow down our options.

Now I actually have a new suggestion.

Is there any one else the town finds particularly suspicious enough to lynch? I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

There is the option of lynching none of Seraphim, me, or Sens, if we are decently sure about someone else that's scum.

Then:

1) If the Mafia kills me, I am confirmed, and you can continue to decide between Seraphim and Sens with more certainty.
2) If the Mafia does not kill me, then I will have a new investigation for tomorrow which will improve the quality of the information we have.

[Tamuz]

There is at least one other method (besides not sending in a list) for your role to be modkilled – please refer to your special notes section

[SensFan]

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

Wanting to fit in much?

[Empking]

I also think that he has a good reason to disbelieve the claim.

Why?

What reason is there to disbelieve the claim?

Just pointing out that I essentially claimed cop for this game and I haven't been counterclaimed.

The fact that you added to your exact role claim when people mentioned mistakes.

Seriously? Is that all you've got?
First of all, it's "person", not "people." FL asked Electra why she [Electra] couldn't target herself, which I think is pretty self explanatory anyway. You and Sens are taking this addition of the fact that Electra couldn't target herself WAYYYYYY out of proportion.

Why would that just blow the whole roleclaim for you, Emp?

Is that really sufficient enough of a reason to discredit the ENTIRE claim? The important component of Electra's role is that she can target two people to determine if they are the same alignment or not and that's what she told us, which I find to be pretty believeable given the context of the game. But it seems like you and Sens are reaching for a reason to try to trash the entire claim.

Vote stands, but

Major FoS: Empking

.

Because it clearly shows that Elektra didn't give a truthful exact role claim.

[SensFan]

I'm really not seeing how people are faliling to see this.

Electra came out and made a very vague "Sens and Seraphim aren't the same alignment, btw" post. This rang several bells in my mind, and left me wondering WHAT Electra was claiming, so I asked for

[SensFan]

I'm really not seeing how people are faliling to see this.

Electra came out and made a very vague "Sens and Seraphim aren't the same alignment, btw" post. This rang several bells in my mind, and left me wondering WHAT Electra was claiming, so I asked for her to "explain exactly how your claimed role works", which I thought made it more than clear that she was to give out all of the information.

She replied that "every night, [she] submits a name." Not "another player's name" or "a name of someone else", but "a name". Nothing about "a name" even comes remotely close to saying that she cannot self-target.

Then, forbiddanlight questioned why Electra wouldn't target herself Night 1. I added that I also didn't like the claimed first choice. Only then does Electra decide to add on that she cannot target herself.

Now, some of you seem to think this is such a small detail that it doesn't matter. Had she claimed normally, I would agree 100% with you, but she didn't. She was asked for "exactly how [her] claimed role works" and she gave an explanation in response to that post, no where saying that she was holding anything back, and so it should be assumed that was exactly how her role works. If that is the case, she can target herself.

Electra, does your PM specifically say you cannot target yourself?

[Electra]

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

Wanting to fit in much?

Rude much?

Really, your defense is just more rehashing on the whole I can't target myself thing? Not only that, but you have failed to give any reason that it does matter. Also, while you requested a 100% role claim, that does not mean I have to comply. It wasn't intentional for me to not include the part about not targeting myself (I didn't even think about that stipulation when I was claiming) but assuming I have some other part in my role, for example, if mafia targets me for a kill, they get an extra night kill, I certainly would not claim that because there is no reason for the town to know this and the information is only beneficial for the mafia. Also, there is no point to saying that I was holding anything back, one, because if I said this, then the natural response would be to demand what I'm holding back, and two, in this case, I didn't consider this to be holding something back.

I'm really not seeing how this is important still, and I'm certainly not seeing why this specifically would cause anyone to not believe my claim.

My PM does indeed say that I can't target myself. Does that matter?

[SensFan]

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

Wanting to fit in much?

Rude much?

Nope. Not at all, actually.

Really, your defense is just more rehashing on the whole I can't target myself thing?

Well, seeing as that's the only reason anyone has given me for voting me all the way to Lynch-1...

Not only that, but you have failed to give any reason that it does matter.

That's plainly untrue, though. I have explained several times why adding that detail made your claim look better, since it removed a source of critisism.

Also, while you requested a 100% role claim, that does not mean I have to comply.

Right, but if you don't specify that you didn't fully claim, its assumed you did, considering how explicit I was in asking for one.

It wasn't intentional for me to not include the part about not targeting myself (I didn't even think about that stipulation when I was claiming)

Yay for invalidating the previous point!

but assuming I have some other part in my role, for example, if mafia targets me for a kill, they get an extra night kill, I certainly would not claim that because there is no reason for the town to know this and the information is only beneficial for the mafia.

Not being able to self-target doesn't help the Mafia, mind talking about relevant things?

Also, there is no point to saying that I was holding anything back

If you ever planned on even thinking of maybe hinting at having a chance of there being another clause in your role, you should have said as much.

one, because if I said this, then the natural response would be to demand what I'm holding back

So you explain that you won't.

and two, in this case, I didn't consider this to be holding something back.

You really do like to invalidate your argument, don't you?

I'm really not seeing how this is important still, and I'm certainly not seeing why this specifically would cause anyone to not believe my claim.

I've explained it several times.

My PM does indeed say that I can't target myself. Does that matter?

Yes, very much. If you have been asked for an EXACT claim, don't you think that you should at least be paraphrasing everything that is in your PM, especially as it pertains to the mechanics of your role?

[petroleumjelly]

Day Three: Vote Count #4

4 SensFan (Caboose, forbiddanlight, Seraphim, Electra)
1 Electra (Empking)
1 Seraphim (wolframnhart)

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch, and

3

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is November 20, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 2 – SensFan, Tamuz

[Caboose]

Well, seeing as that's the only reason anyone has given me for voting me all the way to Lynch-1...

Really?

Because it clearly shows that Elektra didn't give a truthful exact role claim.

You

just

proved my point. So, if Electra left anything, no matter how small, out of the initial roleclaim, it means she was

untruthful

?

Any particular reason you believe a prematre

How was it premature? She had a result, came out on Day 2 and tried to gather info and couldn't do so, so she claimed.

unprompted,

Does the cop need to be prompted to share her findings?

claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

I don't think that Electra was vague. She investigates 2 people and sees if they are of the same alignment. There's not much gray area there.

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

I'm curious to see what these opinions are.

[SensFan]

Well, seeing as that's the only reason anyone has given me for voting me all the way to Lynch-1...

Really?

Yes, really. That whole post is "I don't like the way you attack the claim, Vote: Sens".

Any particular reason you believe a prematre

How was it premature? She had a result, came out on Day 2 and tried to gather info and couldn't do so, so she claimed.

So the Cop should always claim as soon as they have a result, even Day 2, in a large, with no tangeable information?

unprompted,

Does the cop need to be prompted to share her findings?

Of course not. Note how this isn't a Cop.

claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

I don't think that Electra was vague. She investigates 2 people and sees if they are of the same alignment. There's not much gray area there.

I was obviously talking about her ORIGINAL claim, which was very vague.

[wolframnhart]

It's simple; if SensFan flips town, then Electra is scum.

If SensFan is scum, then Electra is mostly likely town.

Vote stands. SensFan, now is a good time to claim.

Completely forgot to comment on this post by Seraphim. In a nut shell i don't like it. If Sens gets lynched today and flips town, then Seraphim is already calling Electra a liar about her role, trying to forgo the fact that based on her claim that if Sens flips town that he must be scum. So Seraphim is cool with going along with Electra's claim as cop and voting Sensfan, but not if Sens flips town (which I think Seraphim knows will happen and is therefore trying to cover his ass the next day).

[Seraphim]

Um. I retain the fact that I'm town. Vanilla townie. Therefore, if SensFan flips town, yes, I will push to make Electra dead because she lied. Sure, my logic is certainly biased, but you'll quickly notice I've wanted Electra dead from day 1, even before her claim.

I'm just following here because Sens's reaction(looking for holes in Electra's claim) looks a lot more scummy than anything Electra has done up to this point. However, if SensFan flips town, from my perspective, she lied. Fakeclaiming cop is always scummy, therefore, I will push for Electra's lynch.

[SensFan]

you'll quickly notice I've wanted Electra dead from day 1, even before her claim.

So as soon as she claims Cop, you decide to trust her?

I'm just following here because Sens's reaction(looking for holes in Electra's claim) looks a lot more scummy than anything Electra has done up to this point.

I haven't been looking for holes at all, actually. In fact, as I'm sure you've noticed, I have only ever attacked one exact part of it.

[forbiddanlight]

FL I think you are shooting smoke. You make an argument from Seraph´s POV that applies in completly the same way from Sens´POV.

So I think FL is taken a bullshit stance logically. Doesn{t prove it right or wrong, but still bullshit.

Your point? And actually, it was bullshit combating bullshit from sens.

Sens defense just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repetition is doing much for you.

[SensFan]

Sens defense just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repetition is doing much for you.

The attack on Sens just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repitition is doing much for the town.

[forbiddanlight]

The attack on Sens just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repitition is doing much for the town.

The attack on Sens is backed up by scummy actions as well as a role.

[Empking]

Well, seeing as that's the only reason anyone has given me for voting me all the way to Lynch-1...

Really?

Because it clearly shows that Elektra didn't give a truthful exact role claim.

You

just

proved my point. So, if Electra left anything, no matter how small, out of the initial roleclaim, it means she was

untruthful

?

Not it means he didn't give an truthful exact claim.

Any particular reason you believe a prematre

How was it premature? She had a result, came out on Day 2 and tried to gather info and couldn't do so, so she claimed.

unprompted,

Does the cop need to be prompted to share her findings?

claim of vague investigative role that requires two lynches to prove?

I don't think that Electra was vague. She investigates 2 people and sees if they are of the same alignment. There's not much gray area there.

I have my own opinions about other members of the town, but I want to know what other people think.

I'm curious to see what these opinions are.

[/b]

[wolframnhart]

@ Tamuz - I had to reread your post several times to make sense of it. I'm not sure about Shadowgirl's modkill - while it did say she could be modkilled, it told her what would cause this, and so I think she would probably prevent it?

Tamuz didn't mention Shadowgirl specifically, so why would you assume he meant her death out of the others?

[Seraphim]

So, Sens, you plan on claiming, since you're at L-1 and you've defended yourself?

[SensFan]

The attack on Sens just feels like the same point over and over that's completely inconclusive and overall useless to the town. I don't think the volume of repitition is doing much for the town.

The attack on Sens is backed up by scummy actions as well as a role.

scummy actions = attacking a convinient change on a weak claim
role = weak claim that changed to accomodate criticism

[SensFan]

So, Sens, you plan on claiming, since you're at L-1 and you've defended yourself?

If everyone on my wagon +1 asks for one, yes.

[forbiddanlight]

scummy actions = attacking a convinient change on a weak claim
role = weak claim that changed to accomodate criticism

Yeah...right

If everyone on my wagon +1 asks for one, yes.

Thanks for being unhelpful. I have no qualms about a hammer at this point in time.