Open 100 - F + E x 2 + TOG OVER! before 712

[Doc]

/I'm firm.

[Doc]

vote: popsofctown

Of course you'd say that. You know who else would say that? Scum.

[Doc]

So, like that Korts guy said, hp actually deserves slight pro-town points for that. Scum don't have any particular motivation to ask that question or at all any question relating MO's.

[Doc]

No, I don't see a reason.

vote count

popsofctown (1): doc
hp [leaves] (1): wall-e

not voting: everyone else

[Doc]

Soo, first page of first game as an alt, and already I'm busted...

[Doc]

Fair enough.

[Doc]

Yep. Sorry. That was me. Busted...

[Doc]

Fair enough.

Hi Doc!

May I ask what you "understood"/saw as "fair enough" from Wall-E's post?

I acknowledged that his stance on the MO question made sense to me, even though I hold that it was marginally indicative of pro-town intentions.

[Doc]

I also don't know why people are calling me Korts >_>

Who is that guy anyway?

[Doc]

Oh, right. Wall-E said basically that it's natural curiosity for scum to want to know as much about their role and how much the town would know of their specific decisions as to their NK target.

[Doc]

Understanding his stance doesn't mean I share it.

[Doc]

who doesn't know how to handle girls

I digress. What did you devulge this from?

Also, I'm a bit scared. Stalking that poor Korts guy so thoroughly...

Your FoS on BH is more than weak. I agree that assuming what hp-scum would do is useless as a scumhunting technique, but basically BH did the same as me, he looked at the motivations for that question.

[Doc]

Oh yeah, and since BH did almost the same thing as me, and you haven't FoSed me, you deserve this:

Raises the People's Eyebrow at Zazie

I don't understand why you set a double standard where I'm not scummy for doing something that BH is scummy for.

[Doc]

Dammit! Log out, log in, shouldn't be that hard...

[Doc]

'Scum won't ask questions like this as it draws attention upon them.'
'However, they think this as well and therefor ask it.'
'But by thinking this, they won't.'
'I don't agree as...'

And continue as long as you want to.
Your argument why you say he deserves slight pro-town point is a circular argument and is in fact a fallacy. Does this answer your question?

I know that technically I presented circular logic. But consider this: it would be extremely malicious to intentionally generate such a WIFOM-argument with a question to the mod. I certainly don't consider hp, after a quick scan of his posts, to be such speculating brass turd, therefore I don't see why hp-scum would go into a speculation of whether such a question would make him look pro-town or not, especially when the question itself doesn't immediately jump out as an inherently pro-town action.

Note: being an alt won't be a problem, hopefully. I've got the hang of it now.

[Doc]

Forgetting to log out and log in doesn't reflect on scumhunting in any way. If you think otherwise, please elaborate.

[Doc]

You can call me whatever you want

[Doc]

OVERREACTION ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

Case in point: use of phrase "God forbid" in relation to the as yet unraised possibility of hp getting lynched for that single tell; also, use of comma after "but".

Also, I don't understand the confusion around me. I'm an alt. Live with it. I won't mess up again.

[Doc]

EBWOP: my post is directed at Seraphim.

[Doc]

Also to be noted: use of "sure" as start of sentence twice in a row. And then there's the fact that my point wasn't at all related to whether hp should be allowed to be lynched on the point held against him.

[Doc]

My point was, noone even mentioned the possibility of lynching hp over that, yet you started arguing against it like it was being considered as a valid option by some players.

[Doc]

unvote, vote: Tenchi

Wall-E disagreed and then Doc seconded it. What really poked my curiosity was how easy it was for Doc to drop defense for HP, since I shared the same opinion as he did.

Fail. Read what I say a little more thoroughly next time. Please point out where I say that I share Wall-E's opinion on the matter? Considering it a valid stance isn't the same as agreeing with it. I don't like misreps.

With that, I decided to ask him a few questions, hoping he can make me understand what Wall-E's point was and hoping I'd get information on what he really thinks on the issue. I think I succeeded on that. And what I think about it? I think it was a dissociation from HP.

What was? Conceding that Wall-E's argument made sense, yet holding to my own opinion that it was a slight pro-town tell? If considering someone's actions marginally pro-town is disassociation, then I don't know what the hell isn't. Your accusations are weak, my friend.

But I'm not really sure, that's why I didn't even put an FoS on Doc and just let the issue be. I didn't think it was THAT big, that's why I didn't even bother to say anything about it.

Your lack of any mention of this implies to me that your suspicion is contrived.

Why am I saying it now, because I don't see any reason to keep that suspicion to myself. At least you guys know where I stand, though at the same time I try not to rock the boat unnecessarily.

"I try not to rock the boat unnecessarily" isn't a very pro-town play early game. Nor ever. Perhaps you don't want to stand out of the crowd with your mad scumhunting skillz?

I'll not even waste a comment on your impatience. People have lives (well, most people. I just sit here all day and press refresh every five seconds ;))

--------

Zazie, you seem to have made it clear that you have suspicions. Do you feel I am one of them? If not, why use only FoSes instead of your vote?

[Doc]

Not contrived. It was incomplete. I didn't have any conclusions to make. As you said, it was very weak.

Ok, fair 'nuff.

Well, if there was one thing I wanted to learn here in MafiaScum was the thing about trying to not get in the way (which was what I interpreted as "not rocking the boat unnecessarily"), I have never really learned how to do that in a long term game because I'm "impatient" (because I'm so used at being aggressive at my quicker games). If I am to help you guys, I'd rather stand a bit back because, my scumdar needs a LOT of polishing (i.e. half-baked suspicion on Doc). Hopefully I improve as this game goes along.

That wiki article is entirely subjective, in my irrelevant opinion. My stance is that every town's duty is to find scum, and the only way to do that is to evoke reactions. One way to do that is be aggressive. Not rocking the boat does not do that, though. Be your aggressive self.

I agree with pops' summary of Tenchi. However:

Alright, now for the other side of the coin. While i do think there are definitely some real reasons to be suspicious of Tenchi, I'm not totally sure he's the right lynch.

What purpose does it serve to be even talking about a lynch? No-one mentioned him being the right lynch, therefore your comment that he may not be is suspect because you had no reason to say it. Unless, of course, you were trying to subconsciously plant the thought that people should be thinking about who to lynch right about... now.

Also, why are you pre-emptively defending your previous action to get a rise out of Tenchi? Your whole post feels contrived and cautious to me, while your previous actions didn't imply that you were intending to be cautious.

[Doc]

I don't like pops jumping back on the Tenchi-wagon when Peter posted a big enough case. And he's basically piggybacking on Peter's case; the only changes he makes to it is a slight difference in emphasis on the "if/when" point and the addition of paraphrasing Tenchi for the sake of a sentence.

And the last paragraph is just bad. He's basically justifying a lynch on someone for being disturbing.

I can see the two of them being on opposite scum factions. They definitely aren't scumpartners from their interactions so far, but both of them seem scummy.

[Doc]

PARAPHRASING: The initial case was whether HP was more townie or more scummy by asking that question. Now, BH's argument was HP is more townie for asking the question in the thread because he thinks scum would ask via PM (being more cautious). Given that HP is a seasoned player, HP could be aware of that fact hence using it as WIFOM.

Firstly, the supposition that hp is a particularly seasoned player is flawed, considering that he has ca. 100 posts. That means around two or three games finished, and finishing them doesn't even guarantee that his play improved drastically. Also, this would be a helluva stupid thing to apply circular logic on. I mean, do you really think scum would think to themselves, "hmm I'd better go and confuse the town by asking in-thread about setup-related stuff"? Regardless of hp's alignment, the question was an obviously honest one.

Pops, in what way does tenchi implies that he is not mason? And i doubt tenchi's if and when statement shouldn't be a case by itself.

I still don't like how we are pushing for a lynch based on tenchi's voting pattern. In my last game, there is one newbie who weveryone thought was extremely scummy, somewhat same playstyle as tenchi but he turned up town. Feel free to go to that game and look. I have only one other game before and it has ended already.

And wall-e, whats the reason for your vote on tenchi, first just to see what it does, and then the confirm vote?

Note blueheaven's defense of Tenchi based on a playstyle argument.

I still don't like how we are pushing for a lynch based on tenchi's voting pattern. In my last game, there is one newbie who weveryone thought was extremely scummy, somewhat same playstyle as tenchi but he turned up town. Feel free to go to that game and look. I have only one other game before and it has ended already.

Please don't cite older games. Irrelevant (even if it is to my defense supposedly). KTHXBYE.

What do you mean by this? Why not use available meta?

He said, "Nobody is going to defend me except myself". If he was mason, there'd probably someone directly or indirectly helping him, and he probably would have avoided such a comment and left that up in the air. Ideally, even if he's vanilla he would have a avoided such a comment and left it up in the air.

I don't think it's untownie to point out the remark. It is tangibly valuable info, that if Tenchi is mislynch he's not mason mislynch. And I really doubt I've helped the scum figure out who's mason too much. It's not like a reverse-psychoanalyzed and quadratic pattern of his postings to deduce that he might not be mason, and released my findings. He said, in front of town, scum and all, "Nobody is going to defend me except myself".


@Tenchi, please lay off the caps lock

Pops, it is

definitely

anti-town to make theories about who is or isn't a mason. It only serves for scum to narrow down the pool of possible NKs. You get a Cold Hard Star from me for that. And shut up about that issue now.

No one seems to have actually answered hp's question yet, which I find strange. Judging from the given role PMs I'd say we are told the method (The Werewolves PM says eaten while the Mafia's says killed)

I think it'd be very courageous of mafia if they stepped up and said "Yes it does; it's in my role PM"

Any reason you c/p'ed only the wolf pm?

I don't see what relevance this has. This post has no value to the town.

Zazie, leave Peter alone re: the alt business. He had his reasons for making one, and he doesn't have any obligation to reveal his other identity. Also, you can do better than those nicknames (the lurve doc is kinda okay/creepy though)

Also,

unvote, vote: pops

Tenchi increasingly feels like a simple newbie, but pops' timing for jumping on the Tenchi wagon and his echoing Peter's case, especially blowing the if/when point out of proportion, smells like more definite scum to me.

[Doc]

But Tenchi wasn't on the verge of being lynched! And if he would've been, he would've been asked to claim! At least you have to realize how pointing out that someone is more or less likely to be a mason is anti-town.

vote count

popsofctown (3): peter?, soveliss, doc
tenchi (2): popsofctown, wall-e
soveliss (2): budja, tenchi
doc (1): seraphim
budja (1): zazier

not voting: hp[leaves], sekinj, blueheaven

[Doc]

f anyone thinks my aggression on Tenchi is strange, it was provoked by
a. His caps lock and diction bothers the crap out of me
b. Korts saying it was suspicious of me to consider (at least, out loud) that I'm possibly wrong. I wanted to dissolve anyone thinking that I'm lynching him in a dissociated manner. I think he's scum right now, and if he is a mislynch i take whatever responsibility that entails.

So basically you are even admitting that the main reason you are pulling points out of your ass to try and incriminate Tenchi even further is because I accused you of being wishy-washy (I assume your point a) is just silliness). How is that not scummy?

(the third statement is the Law of Syllogism itself, that is proven by Socrates)

Hey look, appeal to authority. Why do you feel the need to reinforce otherwise perfectly valid logic by slapping on a big name?

And Tenchi, you can admit to having phrased yourself badly. You

did

say you would stop posting. And seriously,

watch

that appeal to emotion (see post 167). Also see post 167 if you want to see reference to meta, something which you are apparently against in other people's arguments.

[Doc]

First of all, Korts I know that those nicnnames were bad. You didn't have to rub that in my face. I have testweek and I'm really stressed right now, so I was surprised that I actually came up with some nicknames.

My intention wasn't to make you feel bad. It's just that I know you're capable of much more than that Take your time, it's not like I'm going to wander away.

Korts, I asked if he was interested in telling us which player P? actually is. If he doesn't want to tell us, he may do so, but I want a reason for that. Besides, why do you actually enter an open game as an alt?

The first reason that springs to mind is to clear their meta, like I was trying (tough luck...), and that's a reason that is perfectly valid for not revealing their real identity. I don't see why this would cause a big problem. If Peter has a harmful meta in his original identity, and he's trying to change that through an alt, that can only be benficial.

And you're right about my vote.

mod:

both Soveliss and I are voting for popsofctown and not me.

Tenchi: for posts in isolation see the "display posts from previous:" part at the bottom of the page, where if you set "all users" to a particular name, and click on "go", you'll get all the posts of that particular user in isolation.

[Doc]

Unfortunately, town end up doing things they shouldn't have motivation to pretty often, usually due to misunderstandings in theory. You aren't scumhunting properly if you're looking at what town wouldn't do. You should be finding things that scum would do.

[Doc]

I still think pops essentially softclaimed mason.

I don't think that's likely. What is your reasoning behind this, again?

[Doc]

Only a mason can confirm a townie non-mason. That or a rolecop. Why else say, "X is not likely a mason?" How the hell does he know?

That is a very slippery foundation. Mafia have reason to try and draw a mason claim, and a townie who isn't clear on theory may also have a reason to want to out confirmed roles.

Also, wasn't I very clear about speculating on who is mason or not? It goes to you, Wall-E, as much as it goes to pops. DO NOT. DO. IT. AGAIN.

[Doc]

QUESTION FOR DOC: Why is a playstyle argument relevant? What do you mean by that?

A playstyle argument is a very weak one by itself, especially since it's not particularly

your

playstyle, but

a

playstyle that blueheaven is basing his defense of you on. My problem, which I see now I failed to emphasise, is that there is absolutely no proof of connection between the mentioned playstyle of an admittedly different player and you.

[Doc]

Note (mostly to self): will post here on the weekend. Got a lot of things going tomorrow and Friday and I gotta study.

[Doc]

So anyway, it's time for a list of suspicions for me. Top is most pro-town, bottom is least (periods in between names mean significant difference in read). Note that this is mostly gut regarding the pro-town reads.

Doc (naturally)
sekinj
.
Wall-E
Peter?
.
.
hp
blueheaven (default suspicion levels)
Zazie
Budja
Soveliss
.
Seraphim (LURKER ALERT, CODE RED)
Tenchi
.
pops

I think the cases on pops and Tenchi are clear; Seraphim is not playing, or fooling me real well; Budja and Soveliss have been slightly slow (perhaps deliberately) in comprehending the mason issue. hp seems like a lost townie in a sea of speculation. Zazie seems her usual pushy self, although I'd like her to commit to a set of suspicions anytime soonish and not just throw questions around. Peter and Wall-E have been solid bastions of logic so far; and sekinj's contributions also seemed level-headed and I also see him searching for motivations on top.

[Doc]

Dear Guise. pops is ofcscum. Plz vote him.

Thanks! Much love,

Doc

[Doc]

Dear Guise. pops is ofcscum. Plz vote him.

Thanks! Much love,

Doc

I have a picky freudianish tell here. I've done one before, and it was right, so i have a little bit of faith in them.

Note how this joke post is in the form of a letter to another group. "Dear guise". Not a group he is already with and among. Then he says "Plz vote him." Again, it's like he's asking a favor from a seperate group or body.

I don't see how that's scummy. I was addressing the people not voting you. I am voting you. Why should I include myself?

The lack of us/we language here is not good. There's not a joke post here with "cmon, we arr smarter than savajes" or something, rather there's one that addresses a separated group.

You're saying there's a structure for joke posts that I should have adhered to? Why should I have included a "cmon we arr smarter than savajes" type sentence? What purpose would I have strived to achieve then? I'm just asking for more votes on you because your wagon needs more votes.

It's sort of like he's slipped that he's asking for the lynch as a gift he would like to "plz" have from the town, because it eliminates a member of the faction against him. (because Doc does in fact think i'm scum, though i'm not).

I'm asking nicely for votes on you. Since when is it a scumtell to say "please"?

I'm sorry, but all these points are BS. You're flailing because I've got you figured out, right? ;)

[Doc]

Also, happy birthday, scum!

[Doc]

Where did I ad hom, aside from the obvious "happy birthday scum" joke?

True or false, it helps the town if we keep this game long and continue examining all players?

True. Your point?

And it would be nice if you actually addressed my questions instead of categorizing my whole post as ad hom.

[Doc]

hp, sekinj and blueheaven need to commit to a vote.

[Doc]

Since when do you post Xtoxm-style?

Since discussion stalled, pretty much, partly due to lurkers and party, well, due to lurkers. Without their differential there's nothing new to go on. So, pushing a wagon is the only way to go.

So, you gonna vote pops or what? Now that Budja's getting replaced, your vote serves no purpose. And that goes to Wall-E, too. Voting people on the verge of being replaced is a cop-out.

[Doc]

How do i view my own 12th and 36th post so i can see that?

There's a "display posts by" button with a scroll-down of usernames at the bottom of the page.

Also, when do i vote someone or accuse someone for revoting?

I'd also like hp to expand on this with quotes. Also, jumping on the biggest wagon with a one-liner as justification seems a little opportunistic.

[Doc]

Since when do you post Xtoxm-style?

Since discussion stalled, pretty much, partly due to lurkers and party, well, due to lurkers. Without their differential there's nothing new to go on. So, pushing a wagon is the only way to go.

So, you gonna vote pops or what? Now that Budja's getting replaced, your vote serves no purpose. And that goes to Wall-E, too. Voting people on the verge of being replaced is a cop-out.

I... I what? HE ASKED TO BE REPLACED AFTER I VOTED FOR HIM!!

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

You can't know the exact time of his request for replacement. You do have a point, though.

I'd agree to a Tenchi lynch, but would prefer Budja, so if a strong wagon forms on Tenchi again I'll hop onboard.

I could've gone with a Tenchi lynch until one of your later posts:

I disapprove of this lynch, but can't say why because it's verboten (apparently).

Real subtle. Now I really am convinced pops is the lynch for today. Best informational lynch available, aside from the insignificant fact that pops has been way scummy. Order of things: pops claims, someone hammers. All clear?

Seraphim's assertion of having stated his opinion of pops multiple times is off a bit, but not enough to stop the pops wagon.

Tomorrow, remind me to say a few things about Wall-E.

abridg.ed for people on the go:

Order of things: pops claims, someone hammers. All clear?

[Doc]

Stop the blatant fishing please. A claim might possibly cast things in new light, although it's very unlikely. We'll see.

[Doc]

All caps, scary.

Fishing for information. Specifically, I will say what I have to say about you when I deem it will help the town. Right now it won't. I'm not attacking you currently so chill.