Open 100 - F + E x 2 + TOG OVER! before 712

[ZazieR]

That's not an answer to my question. 'Why would scum say that?' is my question.

vote count

popsofctown (4): peter?, soveliss, doc, tenchi
tenchi (2): popsofctown, wall-e
soveliss (1): budja
doc (1): seraphim
budja (1): zazier

not voting: hp[leaves], sekinj, blueheaven

[sekinj]

Sekinj, you mentioned a 'newbie question' and a 'newbie defence'. Which are they?

Is anyone else having trouble figuring out what I'm refering too when I say blueheaven's question and tenchi's defense of himself?

@Z - I'm not a fan of the spanish inquisition without you adding your own opinions. IMO, this is not scumhunting, it is the appearance of scumhunting.

[Wall-E]

"[popsofctown is] ready to leave his "masonism" "up in the air" but is ready to speculate on [Tenchi's]."

This is the most significant thing said in two pages, with the possible exception of:

"Soveliss, why would scum say that Tenchi is not a mason? (Warning. This question is only for Soveliss. If you want to reply, you may do so after Soveliss has answered)"

I still think pops essentially softclaimed mason.

[Doc]

I still think pops essentially softclaimed mason.

I don't think that's likely. What is your reasoning behind this, again?

[Wall-E]

Only a mason can confirm a townie non-mason. That or a rolecop. Why else say, "X is not likely a mason?" How the hell does he know?

[Tenchi]

I had a reply but realized in part that I was answering for Soveliss so I will post it later.

SUMMARY: Drop the "who is mason" talk. But discuss who is speculating masonry and why it is bad at this point in time.

[Doc]

Only a mason can confirm a townie non-mason. That or a rolecop. Why else say, "X is not likely a mason?" How the hell does he know?

That is a very slippery foundation. Mafia have reason to try and draw a mason claim, and a townie who isn't clear on theory may also have a reason to want to out confirmed roles.

Also, wasn't I very clear about speculating on who is mason or not? It goes to you, Wall-E, as much as it goes to pops. DO NOT. DO. IT. AGAIN.

[Tenchi]

Pops, in what way does tenchi implies that he is not mason? And i doubt tenchi's if and when statement shouldn't be a case by itself.

I still don't like how we are pushing for a lynch based on tenchi's voting pattern. In my last game, there is one newbie who weveryone thought was extremely scummy, somewhat same playstyle as tenchi but he turned up town. Feel free to go to that game and look. I have only one other game before and it has ended already.

And wall-e, whats the reason for your vote on tenchi, first just to see what it does, and then the confirm vote?

Note blueheaven's defense of Tenchi based on a playstyle argument.

Doc! Can you clarify this quickly for me? I asked about this in my other post.

[Doc]

QUESTION FOR DOC: Why is a playstyle argument relevant? What do you mean by that?

A playstyle argument is a very weak one by itself, especially since it's not particularly

your

playstyle, but

a

playstyle that blueheaven is basing his defense of you on. My problem, which I see now I failed to emphasise, is that there is absolutely no proof of connection between the mentioned playstyle of an admittedly different player and you.

[sekinj]

An idea: Let's lynch the next person who says the M***** word.

[sekinj]

^a joke

[Soveliss]

That's not an answer to my question. 'Why would scum say that?' is my question.

Many reasons a scum might say that. Maybe he is trying to see how Tenchi would react to it.

[Wall-E]

Only a mason can confirm a townie non-mason. That or a rolecop. Why else say, "X is not likely a mason?" How the hell does he know?

That is a very slippery foundation. Mafia have reason to try and draw a mason claim, and a townie who isn't clear on theory may also have a reason to want to out confirmed roles.

Also, wasn't I very clear about speculating on who is mason or not? It goes to you, Wall-E, as much as it goes to pops. DO NOT. DO. IT. AGAIN.

I don't really understand what you're all saying here, but I'm willing to completely drop it if explaining what is going on to me will somehow jeopardize the town. Sorry if I faux pas, not meaning disrespect, kiss.

[popsofctown]

f anyone thinks my aggression on Tenchi is strange, it was provoked by
a. His caps lock and diction bothers the crap out of me
b. Korts saying it was suspicious of me to consider (at least, out loud) that I'm possibly wrong. I wanted to dissolve anyone thinking that I'm lynching him in a dissociated manner. I think he's scum right now, and if he is a mislynch i take whatever responsibility that entails.

So basically you are even admitting that the main reason you are pulling points out of your ass to try and incriminate Tenchi even further is because I accused you of being wishy-washy (I assume your point a) is just silliness). How is that not scummy?

It is scummy. It's one of those things like OMGUS though, it is a scumtell but it's possible for a townie to do it as well.
It was a tough call for me to decide whether to admit it or not, but usually i decide to admit things like that, i think if i stick to the central principle of "town don't need to lie", and what would be my addendum, "or omit the truth", then in the end it will turn out better for the town. It's a bigger picture thing i guess. It's worse now, but if i live to the last day and I've been transparent the whole game, there will appear to be more continuity in the way I've played the whole game... You get it? Of course, all that was explaining why i admitted to responding to your pressure about me being wishywashy, i can't explain away the suspicions you have about me actually becoming agressive in response to that pressure. I can only say that, like OMGUS, there's both a scum-player and a town-player explanation for the action.

(the third statement is the Law of Syllogism itself, that is proven by Socrates)

Hey look, appeal to authority. Why do you feel the need to reinforce otherwise perfectly valid logic by slapping on a big name?

I thought Tenchi might actually not be familiar with it, so i wanted to make it clear that there is no point in debating the third statement. You're right though, if it's not appeal to authority it borders to closely on it to be appropriate, i should have settled for a vaguer version like "which is publicly accepted to be true".

FLAW:

Someone who is not posting is not defending themselves.
Tenchi said he would no longer be posting. [see above quote] <--- Is this really what I meant? Or is this what you want to see? What did I actually do Pops?

And what was my explanation for saying the quote?

Therefore, Tenchi said he would no longer be defending himself.

You said you would "STFU". That is what you said you would do. That sounded to me to be "not posting". If everyone else in this thread will tell me that "STFU" does not mean "not posting", then I will self-vote. Seriously. It's not what i wanted to see. It's there in plain language.
@underline
It doesn't matter what your "explanation" for the plain language was. I can't say "President Lincoln was very short", and come back and explain that I meant President Lincoln was above average height. You provide an explanation for language that is ambiguous. Your language was very plain to me.

Top three suspects later

[ThAdmiral]

Mod:

I don't think Doc voted himself. He has voted for Pops.

mod:

both Soveliss and I are voting for popsofctown and not me.

fixed

[popsofctown]

There's an exchange that got swept under the rug (or slipped through the cracks) a few pages ago, I'd like to bring it up because it makes me suspicious and never resolved.

Doc questions ZazieR for an apparent double standard (the "same thing" here is thinking HP's question is suspicious, or not suspicious. One of those stupid little theories from early-game)

Oh yeah, and since BH did almost the same thing as me, and you haven't FoSed me, you deserve this:

Raises the People's Eyebrow at Zazie

I don't understand why you set a double standard where I'm not scummy for doing something that BH is scummy for.

ZazieR responds by defending herself with her outstanding vote. On reread, i noticed that hey... her only vote is a random vote on Doc.

Uhm, Doc? You know that I'm voting you, right? I don't see the use of FoSing someone while I'm voting that same player.

Also, regarding the quote you digress, see ';)' at the end of that part.
Well, you don't have to be scared Doc, as I'm only stalking Korts .

BH asks ZazieR if the directly above post implies that ZazieR's first vote on Doc was nonrandom. [not quoted here][use avatars BH, so i can find your posts better] She answers:

It was a random vote. Afterwards I read the whole game again and started to make this part of the discussion. Your's and Doc's responces about hp post stood out.

No one comments on the matter again, and this disproportiation (made up word) of attention isprobably my fault.

Her explanation ultimately does not satisfy me. First, she applies a double standard by FoSing one player but not another for similar actions. Doc suggests she should have FoSed BH and Doc simaltaneously if that particular action is offensive. She says there's no reason to do that because she voting Doc. But that's not a valid defense, because that vote didn't actually carry suspicion on it, it was a random vote. She's hopped on the letter of the law to dodge the spirit: "hey, you expressed suspicion of BH but not of me".
So BH asks if her original vote on Doc was, therefore, nonrandom. In context, it definitely wasn't, y'all can go hunt it down if you like. She answers that it was random, but goes on to say "Afterwards I read the whole game again and started to make this part of the discussion. Your's and Doc's responces about hp post stood out. " ZazieR, what does the word 'this' refer to? I can't figure it out, it's not further down in the post.

Regardless of what the pronoun 'this' referred to, the second sentence gives me pause. "Your's and Doc's responces about hp post stood out." She implies here that she followed up the random vote with suspicion on Doc and BH. But that's not true (unless i missed a quote that predates Doc's Zazie's first quote in this post). Afaik, ZazieR never expressed suspicion towards Doc to match her suspicion on BH. And so now the whole thing has sort of gone in a circle... do y'all see what I'm getting at? It's a little confusing actually.


And so now, my top 3 most suspicious people:
1. Tenchi
2. ZazieR, (blueheaven by extension since his mention induced what seems to me to be lying)
3. HP[leaves]

HP[leaves] has posted some 5 times or so, but still hasn't contributed anything besides a question to the mod. Active lurking. At the time Tenchi accused him of inactive lurking, that was ludicrous because he was quite possibly busy, but now i would deem him active lurking.

[ZazieR]

Sekinj, I work on cases by asking questions. If I don't get my answer, I have to wait till I get before I state my case. And I can if you want refer to an completed game where I did the same, and there's an ongoing game as well.

For those wondering who still have to answer:

Pops

: Can you also mention every comment of P? (Peter?) that you agreed with and why you agreed with those comments.

Budja

: Why is Tenchi suspicious to you?
Do you think players are over-focussing on him?
Who else do you see as suspicious and why?
Who to you hasn't posted much substance yet? Why didn't you try to let them post more substance? Why does this matter to you?

@Pops
'this' refered to the comments made about hp's question.
I said that when I have a vote on someone, that I don't see the need to FoS. So why should I have vored Korts, while he already had my vote?
It was a random vote, but it gained a function after the second read. It seems like you don't think it was a random vote. You can see that I first voted Korts, and a few posts later made the comments about BH and Korts responces.
Doc also asked what I thought of his argument and I gave my reason for it.
And, are you reading this game?

Unvote Vote Budja
I really don't like the comments where you want us to look at other players.

FoS Doc

No other vote, right? No suspicions about Doc's comment, right?

[popsofctown]

At the time you defended with yourself with that random vote, you had done NOTHING to indicate that that random vote had changed into a nonrandom vote. It didn't "gain a second function". I'm not saying it wasn't a random vote, I'm saying it most definitely was, and you couldn't have used it to defend yourself earlier. but you did.

[ZazieR]

So, I need to unvote and vote the same player to announce that my random vote has turned into a real vote ?
Also, did you know that you only mentioned BH in your post which holds your 'case' against me? And hp is scummy for not posting much?

So wait, your point that I earn your second place is that I didn't announce that my random vote had turned into a 'real' vote? Is that what your 'case' is all about? And I used it to 'defend' myself with.

Also, how come you attacked Tenchi for doing something you did as well?
You voted Soveliss for being inactive, but when Tenchi votes hp for being inactive you attack him. And guess what. You voted Soveliss the same day that the game started, while Tenchi did it the day afterwards. Any reason why?
And, when I look at your last post, I get the impression that you read my post. Then why still no answer to my question?
When looking through your posts, I also came across the part about Tenchi not being a mason. It seems more like a 'if he's town, it doesn't matter if he's lynched as he's not a mason' comment. This combined with this:

I'm just concerned that maybe I'm hunting village idiots and not scum.

Gives me the impression that you think he'll turn up town.

I'm going to reread this thread and pick some other players to question.

What happened to this?

And what's the meaning of this?

I think he's scum right now, and if he is a mislynch i take whatever responsibility that entails.

If you're town, then how is this helpful?

Really, you're appraoch is starting to bother me.

[hp [leaves]]

An idea: Let's lynch the next person who says the M***** word.

I like you kind of approach here. I also think the same thing that you do.

Pos is kinda bothering me as he's constantly "complaining" about "double standards".

Techni, why is it bad to speculate masonry at the time being?

[Wall-E]

An idea: Let's lynch the next person who says the M***** word.

I like you kind of approach here. I also think the same thing that you do.

Pos is kinda bothering me as he's constantly "complaining" about "double standards".

Techni, why is it bad to speculate masonry at the time being?

Is English your second language?

[sekinj]

An idea:

Let's lynch the next person who says the M***** word.

I like you kind of approach here.

I also think the same thing that you do.

Pos is kinda bothering me as he's constantly "complaining" about "double standards".

Techni, why is it bad to speculate

mason

ry at the time being?

*palmface*

[Budja]

Read the thread first HP, I think you mean doc not Tenchi .

Also, why do you say that you agree with sekinj yet you still ask why it is bad to speculate m***nary? Since sekinj seemed to be also of the opinion that speculation is bad in the quoted post, why ask the question if you agree with him?

I hope I didn't mangle that question too much.

[popsofctown]

So, I need to unvote and vote the same player to announce that my random vote has turned into a real vote ?

Yes. What, are we psychics? Are we supposed to know when it turns to a real vote?

Also, did you know that you only mentioned BH in your post which holds your 'case' against me? And hp is scummy for not posting much?

I don't understand that first sentence. Hp is not scummy for failing to post, he's scummy for that combined with failure to make a contribution when he does vote.

So wait, your point that I earn your second place is that I didn't announce that my random vote had turned into a 'real' vote? Is that what your 'case' is all about? And I used it to 'defend' myself with.

'yes'. That's 'why'. Don't through quotes around everything. You can put quotes around real if you want, or quotes around defend even, but quotes around "case"? I'm definitely making a case against you, bad case good case, whichever. Putting quotes around stuff makes me feel like you are being dismissive, dismissive doesn't actually prove anything and it doesn't make me happy.
But my issue is that you used a random vote and claimed it as a show of suspicion for Doc when it never was. That's what arouses my suspicion.

Also, how come you attacked Tenchi for doing something you did as well?
You voted Soveliss for being inactive, but when Tenchi votes hp for being inactive you attack him. And guess what. You voted Soveliss the same day that the game started, while Tenchi did it the day afterwards. Any reason why?

Mine was in random voting phase, and I'm pretty sure i made it clear it didn't actually carry suspicion. If anyone besides you thinks it did, I'm sorry for miscommunicating.
I voted Tenchi for voting hp, admitting that his reason for voting hp was incorrect, and still sticking with the vote. If someone had questioned me about how legitimate my vote for soveliss was, i would have explained i'm just doing it to get the game moving, it's mostly arbitrary, and here i'll unvote if you like.

And, when I look at your last post, I get the impression that you read my post. Then why still no answer to my question?

I had to post and go. I knew there was something left to do, but i couldn't remember what it was and had to run. I'll get to it.

When looking through your posts, I also came across the part about Tenchi not being a mason. It seems more like a 'if he's town, it doesn't matter if he's lynched as he's not a mason' comment. This combined with this:

I'm just concerned that maybe I'm hunting village idiots and not scum.

Gives me the impression that you think he'll turn up town.

Yeah, I'm concerned maybe he's village idiot town. It's a possibility, not a prediction. But i think mitigating that risk is: A. he's probably not a ... power role of any... sort B. If we left him alive as town, i think he'd be hard to read the whole game, because he's so newbie.

I'm going to reread this thread and pick some other players to question.

What happened to this?

Haha, it's like the man who asks for a table for three because he looks around and sees three people. I'm questioning

you

right now, you're part of the other people. Maybe I'll move on to a next, maybe i'll want to keep on talking to you.
Also, I asked a brief question to another player, Soveliss i think? He gave a pretty satisfactory answer though and i moved on.

And what's the meaning of this?

I think he's scum right now, and if he is a mislynch i take whatever responsibility that entails.

If you're town, then how is this helpful?

Really, you're appraoch is starting to bother me.

I was trying to make it clear I do actually think he's scum, and the bit about him being too hard to read isn't the main thing, the main thing is if he's scum. So i'm making sure it's clear here that I'm not going to be saying D2 "oh, he's supposed to flip town, i told you he was too hard to read anyway". This is helpful because I'm clarifying that I actually think he's scum, and this more likely than not will encourage others to vote for this scummy player.

[Wall-E]

Some things I spotted on a read:

mod: please delete above and this post

Wait, what? I don't think so, buster!

Korts is not even listed in this game.

PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT PLAYING NEED TO STOP POSTING HERE - IT MAKES READTHROUGHS CONFUSING! THAT MEANS FARSIDE TOO!! OMGWTFSPLOSION!!!










I'm seeing zazie and pops as townies at each other's throats, atm. I find it simultaneously entertaining and a good engine for the scumhunt. I find myself agreeing with Doc and pops often in the thread.

I'm curious how HP will reply to 196 and 197.

sekinj: In your opinion, has pops increased his "excessive wifoming"?

What the mod is saying is that we will find out if the mafia and werewolf kills show up the same.
If they are revealed, I think it could help he town but not until the final days where a pattern could be deduced. Of course this is only my opinion.

Pops seems to like his WIFOM, pick the side you feel is more likely but keep your mind open.

Tenchi is suspicious but lets not over-focus on him. Many people here haven't posted much of substance yet, so their is no need to rush. (not that anyone was rushing , I am just suggesting we don't)

Over-focus? Do you have another suggestion for us to focus on? I think it's a bit silly to just suggest a cease-fire without offering an alternate target. (requisite IGMEOY)