Gnosia Game over!

[FakeGod]

Punishment is unknown.

Few questions I privately asked the mod pre-game suggest that punishment is instant death and losing the game.

I am not familiar with the source material, and I wasn't aware that characters would have game impacting abilities related to lore.

[FakeGod]

This is a Cop/Doc open setup, which lends themselves well to Follow the Cop strategies.

The game also happens to be multi-ball with the inclusion of the Bug.

I would like to make a proposal to the Gnosia team in their help in eradicating the Bug threat together.

I figure that eliminating the Bug first would raise both of our team's winning chances.

[FakeGod]

Also scum can't NK Bug, so what do you mean that you want their help?

I want them to no kill until the Bug is killed.

[FakeGod]

Alive bug more benefits town.

Perhaps you are seeing something I am not seeing.

Help me see it.

[FakeGod]

Therefore, if we start losing, they actually will be forced to try to vote bug out before they achieve majority. Which is hard as it sounds.

My understanding was that the Gnosia wins when they reach majority, regardless of if the Bug is still alive.

Am I wrong?

[FakeGod]

I really don't see the logic behind it.

There are three groups trying to win in this game. Presumably, each group has some percentage of victory.

If we kill off one of the groups, then logic dictates that the chance of victory goes up for the other two groups.

Although, I need to reconsider my proposal - I did not know how the Bug's victory condition worked until shiki explained it to me.

[FakeGod]

I think NK15 is more likely to be the real cop, but I wonder if we need to eliminate between the cop claims at all.

Why are people saying roles cannot be confirmed after day 1?

We do have a coroner, after all.

[FakeGod]

That said, Doctor (not Guardian Angel) should claim as well

Why? I read your 116 and I still do not understand.

[FakeGod]

If mafia wants to trade like that, let them.

[FakeGod]

What don't you understand?

I understand your fears about uncontested late town PR claims, but I don't think the town would be naive enough to give them a free pass.

I worry that if we follow your plan and have the doctor claim, mafia does not cc and simply just shoots the doc tonight, leaving rest of the power roles vulnerable.

[FakeGod]

if one of them dies during the night we know they're both town cuz scum doesn't want to get rid of that kind of wifom.

What is this logic??

[FakeGod]

I don't think a situation where we trade 2 mafia for Cop & Doc is a bad situation.

[FakeGod]

Sorry, make that Cop & Coroner.

[FakeGod]

why would u ?

Why would a town player counterclaim a cop claim?

[FakeGod]

but not known 15 fakeclaimed mason in a newbie as town

He was about to be executed in that game when he made the claim.

Very different situation here.

[FakeGod]

why would a town player fake a cop claim?

They wouldn't, because the real cop would counterclaim and town would be thrown into a shitshow.

This isn't a role madness game. The setup is open, and there is no 1-shot lightning rod kamikaze.

[FakeGod]

If the Doctor claims and does not get CC'd, then the Guardian Angel protects them tonight.

I wasn't aware until now that you were talking about the Coroner, not the Doctor (Guardian Angel).

Also, I've decided nk15 is probably the traitor equivalent of this setups theme, it makes the most sense for him to counter claim the cop blind on d1.

NK15 did not counter claim cop, but I'll assume you meant to type "claim".

I have been thinking about it as well. I think it's likely that the traitor would be claiming as a town PR in this setup.

[FakeGod]

Or counterclaiming as one.

Either way, I suspect there is a traitor in the cop claims.

[FakeGod]

State your role, Not Known 15.

[FakeGod]

Bah.

I was hoping NK15 would be a traitor.

Town and traitor must true-claim to my ability - Bug and groupscum can lie.

[FakeGod]

Yes.

[FakeGod]

Which means he's town, groupscum, or bug.

[FakeGod]

which means, we still on square 1

Well, we know he's not traitor.

[FakeGod]

I'm struggling to understand NK15's "State Your Human" plan coming from another other than a Traitor with how ineffectively he used it.

Agreed, which is why I asked him to trueclaim his role.

My ability only works on town and traitor. Mafia and Bug can lie.

[FakeGod]

VOTE: Enchant

[FakeGod]

Autere, I assure you I haven't engaged in any fakeclaiming or reacting testing.

My ability is real, and I used it because I thought there was a good chance that I may catch the traitor with it.

As much as I hate town players who lie, I think Enchant's post-claim position of telling the Coroner NOT to claim speaks for his towniness. (Because he knows that he's going to retract his claim at some point and Guardian Angel can only protect the Cop claim, and won't be able to defend a Coroner claim as well)

I thought his position was odd at the time, because as many people have pointed out, mafia will likely not shoot in the cop claims and Coroner claiming would have been the optimal play post cop claims.

Now, it makes sense.

[FakeGod]

We are in good position. We managed to get an uncontested cop claim through on day 1, and we can proceed to game solve using the Follow-the-Cop strategy.

Executing Enchant would be a low risk, low reward move I think, as he's likely a VT with a off chance of traitor, probably not groupscum, and certainly not Bug.

[FakeGod]

Not sure.

I thought Shiki's 373 was fairly insightful.

[FakeGod]

Why do you want the coroner to come out?

Our guardian angel is going to be on the cop claim. Coroner will just get shot.

[FakeGod]

I agree with Enchant.

I don't care if guardian angel makes a save. I only care that Cop lives.

[FakeGod]

VOTE: shiki

Consider my vote on Marashu as well.

[FakeGod]

VOTE: Marashu

[FakeGod]

I would like to hear what he has to say.

[FakeGod]

Enchant also argued pretty hard for other power roles to NOT claim, even though Coroner claiming after cop was CC'd was the right move.

This is because he knew that he fakeclaimed and will be retracting it, which would leave Coroner vulnerable to nightkills if claimed.

I think that's a point spoken to Enchant's favor.

[FakeGod]

I had a thought.

Let's say Coroner dies unclaimed, and then Mafia fakeclaims Coroner later in the game, like Day 3 or something.

How does the mafia then justify surviving night?

[FakeGod]

surviving the night*

[FakeGod]

There is no good excuse. It's a dead-end claim.

Guardian Angel is going to be protecting the Cop every night.

Any claimed town power role that survives the night is going to be executed the following day, unless the Cop clears them.

Therefore, I'm having trouble understanding roden/shiki/marashu's stance on the matter.

[FakeGod]

Why do we care about Coroner results?

[FakeGod]

Of course it's useful, but if Coroner claims today as you advocate, then he dies tonight and we get zero Coroner results anyway.

Can you tell me who said that we expect us to have Coroner results?

[FakeGod]

Who do you think Mafia is going to shoot tonight if there's a Cop claim and a Coroner claim?

[FakeGod]

I apologize, Roden. I'm frustrated that you are not seeing what I'm seeing, so I'm going to try to explain my thoughts as clearly as I can.

I think Coroner will be shot if he claims because out of the two claimed roles (Cop and Coroner), Guardian Angel will likely protect the Cop because it is a much stronger role. Therefore, Mafia will shoot the Coroner who will have no protection.

[FakeGod]

guess fakegod is just going to ignore 714

I used to engage in EV calculations for possible game scenarios such as the one you brought up, but nowadays I simply don't have the time nor the energy. I'm too old.

Methinks assumptions you made in your scenario are unlikely to happen, but alas, I cannot offer up a satisfactory response to your post. My apologies.

[FakeGod]

You're assuming that:

1) Doctor doesn't get CC'd

2) Gnosia would prefer to play in a game state with four confirmed crew (Engineer, Doctor, Guard Duty) while we play Follow The Cop

3) Gnosia see Doctor as a bigger threat than hunting for the GA

4) The entire Gnosia team doesn't understand the set up and play this extremely suboptimally.

I just don't see why mafia would bother CC'ing Coroner or "play in a game state with four confirms", when they can just shoot the Coroner.

I think mafia would kill un CC'd Coroner over hunting for GA. They have a 1/9 shot of hitting GA (14 players remaining tonight, 3 of them scum, 1 cop claim, 1 Coroner claim), and 100% of killing the Coroner who is not counterclaimed and is publicly known to be town.

Your last point makes an assumption that your way of playing this setup is the optimal way. Perhaps you can show me in postgame why, but I unfortunately fail to see your points.

[FakeGod]

Alright, Roden.

I trust you, and I will defer to your expertise.

[FakeGod]

Guardian Angel is allowed to lie as well.

[FakeGod]

You're correct. I did not consult the mod about Guardian Angel interaction.

It was already in my role PM.

[FakeGod]

Yeah, it looks like I mistook Gnosia/GA as Gnosia/Bug in the role PM when I wrote my posts.

"Bug" actually wasn't in the role PM, but mod told me Bug can lie when I asked her.

She told me the ability was intended to be a traitor hunting tool, so I left it at that.

[FakeGod]

With the VT claim, Marashu remains an excellent elimination option for today, and I am comfortable with my vote placement.

Ranger, I believe this game is unique in that the approaching the setup correctly will lead to a significant mechanical advantage for the town, and that mechanical discussion is likely quite contributory to town success. Quadruple town confirm start may present an insurmountable barrier for the scum team to overcome, as they are forced to choose between killing the growing number of clears and trying to hunt for the GA (not to mention that they won't get a confirmation on death due to flipless setup)

This may be why Roden was very frustrated with me during our talk.

[FakeGod]

I think MathBlade is scum.

[FakeGod]

VOTE: MathBlade

[FakeGod]

I guess we can go somewhere else... for now.

You really gonna give him a pass?

[FakeGod]

Not to you.

[FakeGod]

FakeGod ability is fishy.
Like town can just answer "I Am AC FOLLOWER" on it.

How?

They will be told by the mod to claim in the thread honestly.

[FakeGod]

It's what the role PM says.

[FakeGod]

I'm fine with being rolecopped.

You will see that I am truthful if your ability is real.

[FakeGod]

Also, I am frankly appalled that your trigger condition is "being sus'd", if it really is real.

Not only it feels rather subjective, but also it forced this very awkward entrance from your replace in.

I do not approve.

[FakeGod]

VOTE: Jessica Rabbit

[FakeGod]

I voted as requested. I think poorly of NK15's antics and care less of Jessica's posts, as it's become clear that she is not Guard Duty.

Rest of you should do the same and end the day.

[FakeGod]

I see no point to continue pushing unclaimed slots. We endanger our masons.

Our cop has made a decision and I intend to follow through.

[FakeGod]

Block argument

What in the god almighty is this?

[FakeGod]

Obviously it's a scum claim, but it also looks like some kind of power usage.

Maybe it negates NK's vote or something. I'd feel safer if we had couple of extra votes on her just in case.

[FakeGod]

Does a town player randomly use an ability on the claimed cop without any explanation after being eliminated?

Answer is no.

[FakeGod]

In that case, should we come up with a code of any kind for NK15? for tomorrow before the thread closes?

[FakeGod]

Nevermind.

[FakeGod]

Excellent elim choice, NK15.

I suggest we start looking for mafia in the counterwagon.

[FakeGod]

VOTE: FakeGod

Fake God is very likely scum here for voting me after this post.

More votes on FakeGod please.

I love it when caught scum calls me scum.

[FakeGod]

I think Drapion and MathBlade are town based on Jessica interactions.

[FakeGod]

I think Drapion's whole spiel when he pointed out Jessica's softclaiming Mason shows him as town.

I don't think that's scum v scum interaction.

[FakeGod]

beeboy has done nothing since replacing in. That in of itself is suspect.

By play, I believe Jessica town;
By play, I feel all of {beeboy, FakeGod, Elmo, narrow parking} are suspect.

Basically, Jessica has given reads under pressure, while being incredibly emotionally compromised. The "AtE" is nai by itself given the reason to be upset exists regardless of alignment, but her expressal of it looks town.

I've come to the conclusion Jessica Rabbit is likely town. Not not-Gnosia; likely town.

I don’t think Jessica is Gnosia.

I would prefer not to lim Jessica today.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN
I'd prefer this.

Ranger's hard defense of Jessica yesterday looks really bad.

It looks so bad that I question whether a scum would defend her buddy like this.

[FakeGod]

*sigh* Math/Drap, if you think Jessica's scum you're helping her appear town. She is town.

Coroner will confirm Jessica's town tmo if you manage to put her through.

I request you vote Elmo and we cop Jessica. Jessica is an asset. An empty slot makes it harder to lim scum.

Why are you tunneling [Jessica] after you beat them into obvtowning?

VOTE: Elmo

Let's vote here.

Actually, Drapion if you're a student of meta, you'd have a pretty high likelihood of Jessica being town.

I'm not voting a Nancy that takes personal offense at being scumread. That's Nancy's script for being town.

Jada looks really bad as well.

[FakeGod]

So... shiki's plan was replacing out?

[FakeGod]

I think I'm willing to vote Jada today.

I trust Roden with the task of sorting their neighbor.

[FakeGod]

Oh, dang. That's a scum claim from Jada if I ever seen one.

I'm ready to move onto the next day.

[FakeGod]

FakeGod your ability was one-shot?

Yeah

[FakeGod]

Still waiting for Jada flip.

[FakeGod]

Alright, our cop died somehow so I think this is outside of what's supposed to happen.

Roden, can you give us some options in case of cop death?

[FakeGod]

[FakeGod]

I agree with the character ability mass claim, but I would like it to be directed by Roden, my trusted advisor.

[FakeGod]

where is Roden I need his guidance

[FakeGod]

I'm down to clown and vote with Herta

[FakeGod]

gimli, son of gloin

your predecessor marashu the cat also pushed for the death of narrow parking

that is very interesting to see two people come into the same slot and make the same push

[FakeGod]

I just realized enchant can't be bug because he has that ability that roleblocks passively and that would block cop investigations

and mod wouldn't introduce a mechanic that has the cop investigation kill bug and then secretly negate the mechanic to pull a fast one

[FakeGod]

I'm not pushing narrow, I'm asking what's the case on narrow since freedom mentioned them

oh I see that is good

did you know that NK15 our dead cop originally picked your slot to be killed on day 1?

[FakeGod]

oh my

what a weird role you have

[FakeGod]

Enchant/Gimli son of gloin/Mathblade interaction with caught scum Jessica makes me think that those slots are town

[FakeGod]

autere posts felt legit deer in headlights

freedom posts felt whack

shiki posts felt like town Sakura Hana posts

[FakeGod]

Jessica tried to shift wagon to Elmo (Esooa) in 1385

that leaves Roden Ranger narrow parking

[FakeGod]

oh yeah jessica tried to deflect to beeboy as well

so I feel comfortable keeping beeboy around

[FakeGod]

pretty useless but easily confirmable; i can stop my name from being mentioned for the remainder of a phase

can you use it to stop people from voting you

[FakeGod]

MathBlade stop voting yourself

[FakeGod]

I have high hopes for gerryoat

also holy crap our mod had to replace like 36 people so far

[FakeGod]

my ability sucks - it can only catch traitor

I leaned town on shiki slot long before LLD got here

I'm sorta pondering if scum ranger would hard defend jessica, but I think we just execute narrow parking today

[FakeGod]

Wait a second, ranger had me as scum in 1623 which is in day 2 after Jessica flip, but she now thinks I'm not scum?

What changed?

[FakeGod]

roden/ranger/narrow parking was my POE

explanations were in pg 87 or something

[FakeGod]

I've summarized why I lean town on remaining players on the same page.

I think it's page 86 actually.

[FakeGod]

excellent work so far we are basically gods at this game

not sure why they shot ranger

she was in my POE pool so I might have pushed her today

saves me a miselim I guess *shrug*

[FakeGod]

i will be going through player interactions with the flipped scum to find the last scum

not sure what to do about bug

my ability lets me detect traitors if you can refill me my shot and want me to use it on someone

[FakeGod]

I publicly ask someone to state their role, and they must do so, unless they are Gnosia, Bug, or Guardian Angel.

I confirmed with the mod that traitors will be forced to reveal that they are a traitor.

I already used my role on NK15 in 396.

[FakeGod]

So it just says "traitor" or "non traitor"

No, it reveals their role, but Bug, Gnosia, and Guardian Angel can lie.

If it hits a town power role, it's going to reveal their role.

[FakeGod]

I am not sure

if traitor is not dead, then I think they have been playing rather poorly so far anyway

I'm currently leaning Roden as possible bug - not sure on the last Gnosia

[FakeGod]

I think it's possible that mafia shot at Roden night 1 and failed their kill?

[FakeGod]

Roden was rather dominant in day 1 postings.

Hmm... He continued to go after Elmo over Jessica, which makes him possibly Gnosia.

[FakeGod]

Now, I think Roden may be the last Gnosia, so I would stay off his slot today.

[FakeGod]

I don't see the point of mass claiming.

[FakeGod]

I don't see the point of mass claiming.

It’s about creating and maintaining accountability.

In a flipful game you have that accountability with seeing vote movement and flips.

Here we don’t have vote movements and if things go horribly (I hope not) we lose flips.

It’s about creating a commmunity.

You know how we lose flips?

We mass claim, GA gets revealed and shot, then coroner dies.

[FakeGod]

...Guard Duty?

[FakeGod]

I am Guard Duty.

[FakeGod]

Is anyone even remotely surprised?

[FakeGod]

gerryoat is the other Guard Duty.

[FakeGod]

If we hit Gnosia, we lose.

(town win con is achieved, but Bug is still alive, therefore Bug victory)

[FakeGod]

I don't think Traitor matters to win condition?

[FakeGod]

I'm down to murderize whatever.

I'm also down to traitor cop whatever.

[FakeGod]

Gimli
Save The Dragons
Esooa
Mathblade
Freedom
Lady Lambdadelta

This is the list of unknowns yeah?

We have 4 cleared players, so we can kill off 4 on this list while confirmed town die.

[FakeGod]

okay... so who do you want me to target with this thing?

[FakeGod]

I'm down to do whatever.

LLD makes sense but I think traitor is already dead which would make this moot.

I think Gnosia Bug GA all would claim non VT because VT claim gets them killed.

[FakeGod]

Also, this is why I don't like more than two factions in a setup. Gnosia cannot win anymore but are forced to play like wtf

[FakeGod]

Waiting for herta

[FakeGod]

I think this shot really belongs to LLD, so I'll let her dictate the target.

State your role, MathBlade.

[FakeGod]

Don’t be fooled

What's this?

[FakeGod]

Same

I guess Bug or Gnosia is doing things or something

[FakeGod]

I'll just pick a person for elim I guess

Make your cases

[FakeGod]

Don't think traitor matters

[FakeGod]

MathBlade wanted Esooa or LLD so I'll prob pick between those two

[FakeGod]

Can everyone line up players in the order they want eliminated?

Do it in your next post.

[FakeGod]

I think I want

STD
Gimli
Freedom
Esooa (who I think is Gnosia. Assumign that the timing on that works and we have votes? If not, Freedom is probably just town so)

Huh

I thought Esooa might be bug actually

[FakeGod]

I also once upon a time thought STD slot was Gnosia

[FakeGod]

I guess this order seems fine.
Though, I don't really SR STD.

Uhh... LLD's order and your order are very different.

[FakeGod]

I'm currently deciding between LLD and Esooa.

Herta did say he thought Esooa was the last Gnosia in 2492, so I'll probably go with LLD's list, and eliminate starting with LLD.

[FakeGod]

Assuming that Esooa is the last Gnosia and you are dead, I should be able to go down the list as you've written.

[FakeGod]

i do not think esooa is the last gnosia

Any reason why you waited until Herta was dead before you brought this up?

[FakeGod]

Okay, in that case, I think we kill Esooa today.

[FakeGod]

I'm probably going to die tonight so

jerryoat

you need to carry the team to victory okay?

[FakeGod]

I'm willing to buy STD's argument that Jessica tried to start counterwagon on Elmo as proof that Elmo (now Esooa) is not Gnosia.

Therefore, we get rid of Esooa today.

I think LLD is also a good choice, and town should consider eliminating there tomorrow.

But Jerryoat will be in control then, so good luck.

[FakeGod]

I think it's possible that mafia shot at Roden night 1 and failed their kill?

Rats!

[FakeGod]

Thanks for the game, MariaR!