Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Korts]

des, are you accusing me of not scumhunting?

He's so town that it's blindingly obvious, yet it's also unexplainable because it's a gut read?

Unvote
Vote: roflcoptor

I see what my beef with this is. a) rofl's "blindingly obvious" comment was a very clear hyperbole, and b) "blindingly obvious" doesn't even come close to contradicting the statement that it was a gut read on des. This is pure, unadulterated BS.

Kison is scum for casting aspersions on roflcopter's unblemished record as townie town town in this game.

Otherwise I feel DGB has been fairly pro-town, but this statement is openly buddying up to rofl.

In post 195, Guardian is glaringly obviously attempting to deflect attention from CKD. There is also the statement that self-voting is scummy. It may be anti-town, but it definitely isn't scummy, IMIO.

Reading over the thread again, there are two quick things I'd like to say.

If, after considering whether you truly think the case on CKD is good, you still think it is, keep going for it. I do not want us to waste time, but I just remembered the plethora of reasons I refuse to defend people -- I am not going to defend him by saying why I think the points against him are weak, that is up to him.

After trying to discredit CKD case, and a reply from rofl, he quickly retreats and basically allows rofl to follow the lead on CKD. I think he's trying too hard to stay uncommitted to any particular side.

unvote, vote: Guardian

I endorse DGB's post 212 (although the vollkan self-bussing idea is just silly).

Please cut out the garbage -- it is unhelpful and suspcious. Posting a lot of nothing can make you look like you are scum hunting, being active, thinking about the game, etc. when you aren't.

HEY! That's what you just did.

Especially this is so very true.

There's a very clear buddying up attempt again at the end of her post, though. I wonder if she'd be so open about it.

The Korts-ckd connection became more evident when Korts talked about ckd's motives with so much confidence

Korts, If ckd is scum he's going to be conscious of whether or not he's voting for someone who's on his team. He unvoted you and moved to rofl without giving much more reason than his first vote.

I still don't see how that's particularly scummy, placing multiple random votes.

Is this me talking about motives "with so much confidence"? Cos it was you that implied that CKD's second vote was pretty much another vote without real reason (i.e. a second random vote). I don't know why CKD decided his vote on me was lacking. The fact that I didn't do much constructive posting up 'til then does make his unvote raise my eyebrow, looking at it now, but I fail to see that as an associative tell (I would say that, though, wouldn't I).

He describes ckd's case on rofl as OMGUS, ignoring the fact that ckd voted rofl before this could have been a factor.

I think that ckd was threatened by rofl's vote and his following case against him seemed almost knee-jerk.

...

How is this not the same as me saying that CKD's case was rooted in OMGUS?

Why isn't Korts questioning the legitimacy of ckd's reasoning prior to his exchange with rofl?

Because "gut" is an acceptable though not very helpful reason for an early game state, while BS is always invalid.

I don't like Guardian's post 218 tirade that could've been summed up in a single sentence (and still be wrong).

I also want to point out that discussion on who and what is scummy is usually never a bad thing. I find the case on ckd unconvincing, and I find it a waste of space, but nevertheless it could lead to good things. I was wrong to say to stop it earlier.

More on the fence.

This is just silly. Self-voting is indicative of nothing at all, and vollkan did it to bus himself, as he is the SK

So does it indicate nothing or does it indicate that he is SK?

I don't know if Guardian genuinely doesn't realize that DGB is joking or he's really intent on refuting every single paragraph of DGB's post in a desperate attempt to defend himself.

I disagree. Mafia has an implicit social contract where we all put our thoughts about other people to be analyzed. When you don't self vote, you don't do that. It is like lurking. It robs the town of discussion and moves the discussion in a bad direction. At worst it can bring suspicion to yourself -- because it IS unhelpful to the town.

One way it is helpful is that it outs the opportunistic players who are all too eager to jump on an anti-town thell saying it's a scumtell. Remember, kids, anti-town=/=scummy. There may be overlaps, but it's a false conclusion to paint

every

anti-town action as scummy. And self-voting isn't scummy.

Why refuse to state who you are suspicious of and why? Why refuse to list the players and make comments? I want a firm stand from you on the players because right now you are my first (second if you count me misreading Korts) real suspect. I will explain further after you procure such a list or again explicitly refuse to.

Whoa, misrep! DGB is refusing to list those players she sees as

town

. She made it pretty clear who she thinks is scum, with added comments.

[roflcopter]

korts just earned back a bit of town cred, and is v right about guardian

[Battle Mage]

BM, why do you think DGB will be unreadable?

Because she's being deliberately stupid, so we can't take anything she says seriously, and cant assess whether she is scum or not. You could say everything she's done so far is scummy, but this is DGB. It's the way she is, and she's playing upto her meta here.

Why are you continuing to promote this meta of vote hopping if it is a scummy meta?

I've only done it once, and i was scum in that game. But, it was a long time ago, and i've found that making votes early on can help you when you read back when the game is 60 pages long (day 2).
Also, it's funny to prove idiots wrong. Random voting is no more informative or protown than self-voting/voting No Lynch.

Scummy things are generally scummy because they are unhelpful to town -- if you acknowledge that constantly moving your votes is scummy, e.g. unhelpful, why continue to do so?

It's scummy in a meta sense, but it's not unhelpful. In game terms, it's a null tell, but for me, it will be helpful later when i need to remember who needs examining again, and if you're one of the people who thinks random voting is a great way to find ties between people, i'm leaving myself wide open to be analysed, which seems fairly helpful to the town too.

Self voting is scummy -- it robs town of information. I am disappointed in vollkan especially for this -- I've always looked at his play as logical and very helpful to town. I find his choice to self vote and rob the town of information suspicious and out of character, especially considering I think that others self-voting probably impacted his decision to do so.

This is entirely wrong. But then, you havent thought it through, which saddens me. You think self-voting is scummy, because it robs the town of information. BUT IT DOESNT! Because by self-voting, you gain valuable information and reactions from other players. I've actually realised that an early self-vote is the most protown play for someone.

This is supposed to be such a stellar cast -- we seem to have largely spam'd/noise'd our way to page 8 in two days. Short page lengths are better for towns -- in reality, people are not going to re-read 40 page day ones as well as they read 15 page day ones.

I disagree. As scum i hate to reread, because finding scum doesnt directly fulfill my win condition. As town i will reread and analyse, because it's the name of the game for me.

BM you need to re-read the thread and come up with something logical, and stop the knee-jerk voting reactions that seem to come three times a page.

No i don't. YOU need to think before you speak, and maybe you won't look silly on things that are fairly basic.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Reading over the thread again, there are two quick things I'd like to say.

If, after considering whether you truly think the case on CKD is good, you still think it is, keep going for it. I do not want us to waste time, but I just remembered the plethora of reasons I refuse to defend people -- I am not going to defend him by saying why I think the points against him are weak, that is up to him.

I think destructor is townish, but I have been wrong and been burned too many times to say "obviously town." I already decided I am going to keep my eyes on him today, and not let my initial read blind me. I suggest everyone does the same with all players.

Unvote, Vote: Guardian

Being afraid of looking scummy, even if its a result of doing something protown, is a scumtell.

BM

[Battle Mage]

mod, please prod yosarian2

he hasn't posted at all

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian

He's posting actively elsewhere. I know if Yos was here, he'd want us to string up a lurker. If he does show up, i wholeheartedly expect him to self-vote.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, I know you said it jokingly. I'm repeating myself here. You got the FOS for implicating Sens. Kison played along with DBG based on interaction that already existed. You specifically bought SensFan into it for no reason I can understand. What was the point of that?

He was a name i could remember was in the game, that i hadnt mentioned yet? I dont know. It's called the RANDOM voting stage for a reason.

@Kison-ive already explained my stance on CKD at least twice.

@Des- same applies to you. It'd be nice if you read some of my posts, before asking me questions that i've already answered.

BM

[Adel]

See this post for a little more explanation about the mechanics of this game.

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 230

_{with 14 alive, 8 will lynch before deadline}

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

¬curiouskarmadog:

4

:roflcopter, DrippingGoofball, destructor, vollkan
Battle Mage:

2

:Raging Rabbit, SensFan
roflcopter:

2

:curiouskarmadog, Kison
Korts:

1

:ZazieR
Raging Rabbit:

1

:Elmo
DrippingGoofBall:

1

: Guardian
Guardian:

1

: Korts
Yosarian2:

1

: Battle Mage

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

1

:Yosarian2

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[Elmo]

Now that's quality spamming.

I'll reread when we hit page 20. Or, you know, not.

[roflcopter]

so i read a game once where scum elmo almost lurked to victory. does anyone have a good town elmo meta?

nice birds though

[Elmo]

If that's Satin Doll Showdown, I sometimes get lurky/unhelpful when I'm bored, and that game bored the crap out of me. I don't think anyone here has any kind of meta on me.

[roflcopter]

active lurking + only participating in order to self defend

yeah, elmo's probably scum here

[Korts]

active lurking + only participating in order to self defend

yeah, elmo's probably scum here

I agree. Unless there's someone who's aware of Elmo doing these as town.

[Battle Mage]

@Korts, Roflcopter - Why arent you voting for Yosarian2? What is your view of his lurking here?

BM

[Korts]

Guardian's hardcore fence sitting is much more implicating than Yos' lurking. I'm not even sure Yos is aware this game has started.

[Battle Mage]

well, he hasnt been prodded, and he picked up his pm, so i fail to see why he wouldnt.

BM

[Korts]

I don't follow your logic. He hasn't been prodded because it hasn't been 72 hours since the game started. I'll wait for the first prod to see whether his lurking is intentional.

[Battle Mage]

I don't follow your logic. He hasn't been prodded because it hasn't been 72 hours since the game started. I'll wait for the first prod to see whether his lurking is intentional.

I dont see why he wouldnt be prodded if the Mod felt he genuinely hadnt been made aware that the game had started. Is he the only offender?

BM

[Korts]

I don't see why the mod would give Yos special treatment, though, regardless of her beliefs. I think he's the only offender, if you were asking me.

What I also don't see is why we're debating this. If Yos doesn't post even after he's prodded, I may consider pressuring him, until then, there's no proof he's following the game.

[Guardian]

Guys, I realized that I did something that was not pro-town, and admitted it and corrected my stance. I am a bit perplexed as to why this is being used as the basis for votes, and why it is being termed fence-sitting.

I am not fence sitting -- I have not yet wavered from saying that I find the case on CKD lacking. But if people want to continue discussing it I should not stop that, for many, many reasons. For example, CKD could react in a scummy way and the initially unconvincing case could lead to CKD-scum catching. Or I could become convinced. Or if someone keeps pressing a bad case they could look suspicious. Etc.

---

destructor, I don't think rofl's question-avoidance was very scummy, especially in the context of the whole thread, but it was unhelpful and something that I think should be avoided.

BM, I fundamentally disagree that your vote hopping is helpful. By over-voting your rob your votes of any meaning. They do not express who you are most suspicious of, they do not intimidate those who you are voting, etc. When you just voted me, I thought to myself "oh well, but he will probably change that in a few pages." It took exactly one post :\. Your votes are meaningless if you continue in this fashion.

As for "we cannot take anything DGB says seriously..." I fundamentally disagree with that as well. Contrary to popular opinion, I think DGB is always serious. She just uses apparent humor to get things done her way. I was converted to this line of thinking after playing with her in mith's California game #2 and mod-ing her in iPick. She's fun -- but we can look at her play and see motive, logic, etc. there.

[Battle Mage]

BM, I fundamentally disagree that your vote hopping is helpful. By over-voting your rob your votes of any meaning. They do not express who you are most suspicious of, they do not intimidate those who you are voting, etc. When you just voted me, I thought to myself "oh well, but he will probably change that in a few pages." It took exactly one post :\. Your votes are meaningless if you continue in this fashion.

This is a stance i can appreciate, but you are still FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. By 'overvoting' as you call it, my vote no longer represents anything YOU want it to, it represents what I want it to. It represents suspicion against someone. A vote cast at this stage shouldnt be immovable-i want to be able to look back at my votes, and get a good idea of who has been the scummiest in the game. My votes carry a significance, but you have to consider them ALL together, whereas you seem to want to draw conclusions from a very small minority of them.

As for "we cannot take anything DGB says seriously..." I fundamentally disagree with that as well. Contrary to popular opinion, I think DGB is always serious. She just uses apparent humor to get things done her way. I was converted to this line of thinking after playing with her in mith's California game #2 and mod-ing her in iPick. She's fun -- but we can look at her play and see motive, logic, etc. there.

Right. So you're saying DGB genuinely believes that the people she has named as scum are scum, and those she has named as town are town? I think not. She lies constantly, and unless she starts playing the game honestly, she is completely unreadable, because we cant use interactions or lies as scumtells, because they are all tongue in cheek. You cannot apply normal scumtells to DGB.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also, i'll give Korts the benefit of the doubt.

Unvote, Vote: Guardian

BM

[Guardian]

After trying to discredit CKD case, and a reply from rofl, he quickly retreats and basically allows rofl to follow the lead on CKD. I think he's trying too hard to stay uncommitted to any particular side.

Uncommitted? My stance on the CKD case has not wavered, why are you saying it has??

I also want to point out that discussion on who and what is scummy is usually never a bad thing. I find the case on ckd unconvincing, and I find it a waste of space, but nevertheless it could lead to good things. I was wrong to say to stop it earlier.

More on the fence.

How is this fence sitting -- I am doing the exact same thing DGB is doing -- refusing to explain why I find a player townish.

I don't know if Guardian genuinely doesn't realize that DGB is joking or he's really intent on refuting every single paragraph of DGB's post in a desperate attempt to defend himself.

I don't know whether you generally believe we cannot analyze DGB because she is "joking" or whether you are spewing a line of bullshit. "DESPERATE" attempt to defend myself? Because DGB is attacking me for not posting content when I have posted content, and I have one vote?? And this makes me DESPERATE? I was trying to illustrate how bad DGB's attack was -- and now I find you agreeing with it :|.

One way it is helpful is that it outs the opportunistic players who are all too eager to jump on an anti-town thell saying it's a scumtell. Remember, kids, anti-town=/=scummy. There may be overlaps, but it's a false conclusion to paint

every

anti-town action as scummy. And self-voting isn't scummy.

I fundamentally agree that self-voting is not scummy, as I spent a whole post explaining. Not

every

anti-town action is scummy, but it is pretty damn close. I made this pic to help you understand:

Whoa, misrep! DGB is refusing to list those players she sees as

town

. She made it pretty clear who she thinks is scum, with added comments.

That's exactly the thing -- she has

not

made it pretty clear who she thinks is scum; she's said at least 5 players I can recall are definitely scum. I want to hear her actual stance on everyone with reasons. If she doesn't want to give reasons for who is town, fine, but everyone she thinks is scummy I want reasons for.

Right. So you're saying DGB genuinely believes that the people she has named as scum are scum, and those she has named as town are town? I think not. She lies constantly, and unless she starts playing the game honestly, she is completely unreadable, because we cant use interactions or lies as scumtells, because they are all tongue in cheek. You cannot apply normal scumtells to DGB.

We can analyze her motivations for lying, if she is lying. If she refuses to play honestly I am up for lynching her. One of my greatest pet-peeves is saying players are unlynchable because they have a scummy meta. I personally do not know of anyone who has such a meta. But if you believe that someone does, I support policy lynching them in every single game I am in with them until the meta changes. If in this game, the town as a whole refuses to acknowledge that a player is readable AND then refuses to lynch them (whether this player is DGB, or anyone), then I am going to replace out. No one should get a free pass in mafia. Giving it is idiotic. Especially not DGB, she is perfectly readable.

I do not think she hasn't been playing honestly -- if she hasn't I would like her to explicitly state that this is the case, and explain what was honest and what wasn't.

[Battle Mage]

If DGB is not playing honestly, what makes you think she would be honest enough to tell you this? *facepalm*
Nobody said we give DGB a free-pass. Nobody even said she had a scummy meta. She simply has a 'useless' meta. What i've learnt from playing with DGB lately, is that ignoring her is by far the best policy. If there's enough interest, and nobody better, we can string her up. But in the meantime, she's just background noise. What concerns me is, people who dont know her, might think she is being serious, and then we get the next generation of Goofballs.

I disagree entirely with your view on meta, but as you misread me completely, it really doesnt matter. If you want to talk mafia theory with me, send me a pm.

In the meantime, you're flailing. I'm happy to see you put under some heat.

BM

[Korts]

Uncommitted? My stance on the CKD case has not wavered, why are you saying it has?

Pardon. I just find an inherent contradiction between you not believing the CKD case and letting others pursue it when it is to your mind a dead end. I used the wrong term, possibly.

I don't know whether you generally believe we cannot analyze DGB because she is "joking" or whether you are spewing a line of bullshit. "DESPERATE" attempt to defend myself? Because DGB is attacking me for not posting content when I have posted content, and I have one vote?? And this makes me DESPERATE? I was trying to illustrate how bad DGB's attack was -- and now I find you agreeing with it .

For the record, I think DGB can be analyzed, but her statement that vollkan is self-bussing as an SK is an obvious joke because it doesn't make sense as either a scum, town or SK gambit and doesn't further any agenda other than an opposing faction's. Therefore you taking it (DGB's statement) seriously and thinking that there are

two

legitimate theories (self-voting indicates nothing and self-voting indicates SK self-bussing) either means that you didn't realize DGB's joke was that, or you are over-compensating in your self-defense for being scum.

I fundamentally agree that self-voting is not scummy, as I spent a whole post explaining. Not every anti-town action is scummy, but it is pretty damn close. I made this pic to help you understand:

<Venn-diagram>

Yeah, I know that (the Venn-diagram). My point was that the gist of your tirade against self-voting

was

that self-voting is scummy. Here, I'll quote.

Self voting is scummy -- it robs town of information

Now that may have been just a turn of phrase, but it doesn't change the fact that you did, in fact, say that.

That's exactly the thing -- she has not made it pretty clear who she thinks is scum; she's said at least 5 players I can recall are definitely scum. I want to hear her actual stance on everyone with reasons. If she doesn't want to give reasons for who is town, fine, but everyone she thinks is scummy I want reasons for.

She has made it clear that her suspects are the following: Guardian, Kison, CKD; vollkan as SK particularly.

Right. So you're saying DGB genuinely believes that the people she has named as scum are scum, and those she has named as town are town? I think not. She lies constantly, and unless she starts playing the game honestly, she is completely unreadable, because we cant use interactions or lies as scumtells, because they are all tongue in cheek. You cannot apply normal scumtells to DGB.

I digress. I think that every person DGB pinned as scum she did suspect, excluding the first couple which were obvious random jokes (Kison/Guardian/BM circle-bussing on page 2 or something). I support Guardian's stance on this (although I have faith enough in this particular town to say the hypothetical situation of DGB being unreadable and yet unlynchable won't happen).

[Kison]

des, are you accusing me of not scumhunting?

He's so town that it's blindingly obvious, yet it's also unexplainable because it's a gut read?

Unvote
Vote: roflcoptor

I see what my beef with this is. a) rofl's "blindingly obvious" comment was a very clear hyperbole, and b) "blindingly obvious" doesn't even come close to contradicting the statement that it was a gut read on des. This is pure, unadulterated BS.

Disagree. When you're willing to clear someone and make statements like this, you should be damn well capable of figuring out why you have such a strong town read on that individual. My stance on 'gut' is closer to Vollkan's hardcore disapproval of them; it's an easy cop out for not backing your reads on an individual. Something causes your 'gut' to tell you one thing or another; you simply have to find out what it is. (and it looks like he finally did)

so, now that i've pointed out why i find des to be so protown, are you gonna stop voting me, or are you gonna manufacture another reason to keep your vote where it is?

No, actually, I liked your post a lot. But more importantly, I took the time to look at some of your completed games and found that you have done this before as Town(the best example I found was Open 81). That basically gets rid of anything I had going on you.

Unvote

Someone asked me what I think of the furious karma dog. As I said, I agree with his point about clearing Destructor so early without being able to point out why, but disagree with most everything else he used as a basis for switching his vote. However, whether or not his switch of a vote indicates a link between him and Korts, I do not know. I'm going to go back and look over the whole ordeal right now and will post back shortly.

<3,

Me.