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[Andresvmb]

Hello everyone.

Excited for this game to have finally started after being in signups for so long. One item I will point out - the rules indicate that the Scum have multi-tasking, so I would imagine that PRs will not be a meaningless part of this game. Just something to keep in mind.

VOTE: Nero Cain

I’m hoping you’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

sup andres

Hey Pooky. I gotta say, I’m going to try and be careful with your slot.

I know have a Scum game under my belt, so you can go take a look at that and compare it to my play here over time. It should be obvious what I am.

[Andresvmb]

^I now have*

[Andresvmb]

Every next Day Phase lasts 7 days (168 hours), except for the phase in which the town faction should find themselves in ELo (“eliminate or lose”) should that happen in the course of this game – that Day Phase will last 5 days (120 hours).

is vengeful

a normal role?

It is. Not sure how that relates to the part of the rules you quoted, but I very much believe so.

[Andresvmb]

It is. Not sure how that relates to the part of the rules you quoted, but I very much believe so.

won't the timer tell us if we have a vengeful?

It shouldn’t, no.

[Andresvmb]

angela I’m not going to lie - I find your concern for disclosure around a Vengeful role Scummy. The impact from there being a Vengeful role in the game is that the Scum can’t be certain that a coordinated hammer would end the game in what’s presumed to be ELo. Other than that, there’s no true downside for Town unless the Vengeful Town, if it exists, shoots incorrectly prior to Endgame. At Endgame, there isn’t much of a downside to shooting incorrectly since the game would’ve been lost if their role didn’t exist.

[Andresvmb]

Having said that, I suspect you would have asked your Scum buddies these questions outside of this thread, so perhaps too brazen for Scum. I just don’t think this conversation is helpful for the Town.

[Andresvmb]

I have rolled Town 96.2% of the time on this forum. Unbeatable.

[Andresvmb]

sup andres

Hey Pooky. I gotta say, I’m going to try and be careful with your slot.

I know have a Scum game under my belt, so you can go take a look at that and compare it to my play here over time. It should be obvious what I am.

what do u mean be careful with my slot :/

I have played with you as both alignments, and gotten you wrong last two times you played with me (as Town and Scum). Which means my accuracy regarding your alignment is horrific. That’s what I mean.

[Andresvmb]

It is in my nature to worry about stuff like that.

[Andresvmb]

I’m back tonight btw.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry I’m back. Let me read slowly I have a few hours. I’ll be around.

[Andresvmb]

I have rolled Town 96.2% of the time on this forum. Unbeatable.

Is that including this game?

And just for the record, it only includes completed games. I keep a record of all the games I play, so I took the % from there. I don’t update it until a game is over. In case you were interested.

[Andresvmb]

I gotta say, I’m going to try and be careful with your slot.

y?

your reason sounds kinda dumb

I find your concern for disclosure around a Vengeful role Scummy.

then vote her? surely a vote on someone that you find scummy is a better place for your vote than a RVS.

VOTE: gera revenge

You don’t like my reasoning? Well tough shit. I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to recognize upfront that my accuracy as it pertains to Pooky is bad, and therefore I need to try and be more careful about my assessments there.

And I explained why it might not be coming from Scum. Not sure why you’re surprised I didn’t vote there. I don’t throw around my vote all that much as you know, so until I’m particularly settled somewhere, I don’t see the need to move away from my RVS vote.

[Andresvmb]

Hi

VOTE: save the dragon

You usually start with votes that are random, and are loathe to put a serious vote down. So what triggered this?

Did anyone ask this to you? I’ll just keep reading.

[Andresvmb]

could you maybe put to words why?

like what can be gained from this/have you checked the math yourself/would it mean anything if it was untruthful

can wait until andres responds i guess if you'd like

but i don't really get it

because I was going to lead into my analogy of Roulette at a casino. They tell you what numbers have fallen and people use that to "predict" what numbers will come next.

But probability states that the past rolls have zero bearing on the next one, meaning you could be town in 99% of your games up to thins one, but that means nothing this time around.

Does that help?

You think that I was suggesting that because I’ve largely been Town around here, that I must be Town now? I have literally bashed someone in a different game for suggesting this

in reverse

. Obviously you wouldn’t know this, but someone was trying to say that because I had been Town in multiple games in a row, I couldn’t possibly be Town that game. And I quoted the fallacy you are accusing me of committing (instead of reading it in context, as the obvious joke that it is). I’m not sure how I should feel about it, but it’s both useless content and let’s you contribute without saying anything. Negative points for you.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Scorpious

[Andresvmb]

It really is a very low risk lim. Not really expecting much hunting from N_M.

I think you’re likely to be Scum. So I don’t want to do NM and would much rather you be executed.

[Andresvmb]

which one is it or do u already know they are both town

Rathe I think you could be Town. I like this take.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: rathe

This is a bad vote btw.

[Andresvmb]

Can someone explain the immediate wave of suspicion/possible wagoning on NM? Feel like I'm missing some important meta stuff here, most of that exchange gone right over me.

NM is an infamous player with a very unconventional and trollish style of play that makes him difficult to read. He doesn't straight up gamethrow or anything but he has a shtick of hammering anyone at E-1. It's often proposed to lim him early so he doesn't get in the way, but I feel it's silly to lim a null player when other players might yet make themselves scummy.

Okay cool, anecdotally only played with them in one game, they did exactly this and turned out to be mafia. Agreed getting rid of them turn one on this basis is a poor idea and kinda suspicions though.

This is a moot point.

This is the last time I’m accepting N_M conversation as potential town content..

Anything beyond this will be considered scum filler by me. There is way to much discussion about a slot many of us know is kinda just there. Deal with it…

As I said. NOTHING they do is AI.. expect a quick hammer, maybe a quip or two(sometimes insightful) and a “mum” Joke here an there. that’s it …

No more N_M discussion please, unless it’s to vote.

This is false btw. And you don’t get to veto conversation about a player we’re trying to sort. I can understand the thought that if people only comment on NM D1

and nothing else

, that this could be Scum indicative as it’s a dodge on providing actual content. But (1) I have played with NM before multiple times, (2) and have seen them contribute positively as Town (while nailing multiple Scum). I have also seen them troll and be useless. Either way, just dismissing them so that they’re never paid attention to I disagree with. Having said that, there’s a lot I wouldn’t take seriously.

[Andresvmb]

sup andres

Hey Pooky. I gotta say, I’m going to try and be careful with your slot.

I know have a Scum game under my belt, so you can go take a look at that and compare it to my play here over time. It should be obvious what I am.

angela I’m not going to lie - I find your concern for disclosure around a Vengeful role Scummy. The impact from there being a Vengeful role in the game is that the Scum can’t be certain that a coordinated hammer would end the game in what’s presumed to be ELo. Other than that, there’s no true downside for Town unless the Vengeful Town, if it exists, shoots incorrectly prior to Endgame. At Endgame, there isn’t much of a downside to shooting incorrectly since the game would’ve been lost if their role didn’t exist.

Having said that, I suspect you would have asked your Scum buddies these questions outside of this thread, so perhaps too brazen for Scum. I just don’t think this conversation is helpful for the Town.

I have rolled Town 96.2% of the time on this forum. Unbeatable.

VOTE: Andresvmb

Happy to change this in time as andre posts more going forward but I feel like this is an okay early vote for now.

Not sure how other people feel, but these posts come across as a bit desperate to come across as helpful townie for me.

Like I said before the initial accusation on Angela before the quick and sudden rollback in the next post hinted at some uncertainty for me, as if Andre was wary they'd gone in too hard. Then followed up after that by a joke to try and diffuse the situation.

This slot is… sigh. I’m hoping you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not wary of going “hard”. What a bunch of crap. I explained why I didn’t think the conversation was +Town. I also said that even if that’s the case, I don’t think Scum would be so blatant about it. Additionally, I actually think angela has been asking solid questions (though I wouldn’t settle on angela being Town just yet for forever).

[Andresvmb]

oh look gera is joining another bandwagon. nothing suspicious about that.

do you have much experience with geraintm?

and if so,

would you say that town!geraintm generally functions under a blanket

"wagons are good"

playstyle?

also interested in anyone else with experience with geraintm weighing in on this

I am NOT a fan of meta, and I don’t have a definitive answer yet based purely on content this game, but I would say that geraintm’s approach so far is not what I’m used to seeing from the slot in previous games. We’ve played multiple games and I’ve expanded upon my views of the slot in D1’s in more than a few other games (all from a Town perspective). I’ll see if I can quote a summary.

[Andresvmb]

oh look gera is joining another bandwagon. nothing suspicious about that.

do you have much experience with geraintm?

and if so,

would you say that town!geraintm generally functions under a blanket

"wagons are good"

playstyle?

also interested in anyone else with experience with geraintm weighing in on this

I am NOT a fan of meta, and I don’t have a definitive answer yet based purely on content this game, but I would say that geraintm’s approach so far is not what I’m used to seeing from the slot in previous games. We’ve played multiple games and I’ve expanded upon my views of the slot in D1’s in more than a few other games (all from a Town perspective). I’ll see if I can quote a summary.

viewtopic.php?p=13074910#p13074910

[Andresvmb]

mainly just gut i read what malcolm said about him but i just think he is probably town

No seriously. "This player is putting effort into the game, that's worthy of a vote." Christ.

VOTE: geraintm

Prime, Grade A, free roaming , grass fed overreaction right hea.

If geraintm is Scum (and they easily could be btw), you’re next.

So far, I think Rathe is Town, Nero Cain is Town, angela is Town. Pooky seems fine but I don’t really know yet.

I’m hating Malcolm, Scorpious, Morning Tweet. geraintm I’m skeptical of.

[Andresvmb]

i'm torn i think ger needs attention but i like my rathe vote, and rathe hoped onto ger so

should have probably said i was vla this weekend got really busy i can have some better thoughts on monday

I don’t want to ignore the possibility that Rathe is coming out to call me as Town because they know I can be loud and they’re trying to pocket me, but I am not seeing them as Scum so far. So I think you should reconsider.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I think I’ve read every post and made some comments. You all know where I stand now.

[Andresvmb]

I have rolled Town 96.2% of the time on this forum. Unbeatable.

Is that including this game?

And just for the record, it only includes completed games. I keep a record of all the games I play, so I took the % from there. I don’t update it until a game is over. In case you were interested.

I would have accepted almost anything other than. "This is a real number" not that I'm making a case out of it,but it's total bullshit. Why would you push that as not just being a gneralization?which I would accept,but inisist thats an actual figure

You realize if you played lets say, 10 games and were anything other than town once you would have to roll town another 10 times in a row to even be at 95%?

Like I said, It's just weird you would come in as heavy as you did but lead with a lie. It's noted..

What’s total bullshit? It

is

a real number. And it only relates to games I’ve played on this forum. Why would I lie about something so stupid? All you have to do is count the number of games I’ve been involved in, and count the number of games I’ve been Town in. Which is super easy, since I was Town 25 games in a row, and I just completed my first Scum game around here ever. This isn’t even that hard, since I kept making a joke about how often I was rolling Town, and some people that have played with me multiple times kept making fun of it. You look horrific for accusing me of lying about something so elementary.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not wary of going “hard”. What a bunch of crap. I explained why I didn’t think the conversation was +Town. I also said that even if that’s the case, I don’t think Scum would be so blatant about it. Additionally, I actually think angela has been asking solid questions (though I wouldn’t settle on angela being Town just yet for forever).

As I said it's still early game and I'm more than happy to change my mind - but it kinda just interested me and gave me an early mafia vibe, throw out a strong accusation but then roll back on it shortly afterwards.

Your posts over the past couple of pages feel a bit panicky as well to be honest.

You’re full of shit. I’m not panicky. You’re ascribing an emotion to my posts that isn’t even close to anything I’ve been feeling. And it wasn’t a strong accusation. Like what?! I said that I felt angela’s posts about a particular topic were Scummy. That’s not even remotely close to a “strong” accusation from me. My posts about Scorpious are far stronger. In fact I would be interested in your opinion about that slot.

[Andresvmb]

which one is it or do u already know they are both town

Rathe I think you could be Town. I like this take.

Do you like the "Kitty already knows angela/Scorp are town" component, or do you like

kitty mentioned that angela and scorpius cannot both be mafia n then says they r probably both town

the part where Rathe calls this a contradiction?

The first part. I’m not sure it’s a contradiction, but I definitely felt it was way too early to be calling that interaction TvT. I definitely arrived at the same conclusion. It seemed to want to defuse away from a Partner in a way that wasn’t realistic. The probing by angela seemed genuine as far as I can tell, and I didn’t immediately assume they were just off base.

[Andresvmb]

mainly just gut i read what malcolm said about him but i just think he is probably town

No seriously. "This player is putting effort into the game, that's worthy of a vote." Christ.

VOTE: geraintm

Prime, Grade A, free roaming , grass fed overreaction right hea.

If geraintm is Scum (and they easily could be btw), you’re next.

So far, I think Rathe is Town, Nero Cain is Town, angela is Town. Pooky seems fine but I don’t really know yet.

I’m hating Malcolm, Scorpious, Morning Tweet. geraintm I’m skeptical of.

Scorp's reaction to Kitty's post is exactly the same one I had. You're going to need to explain why it's bad

That was a terrible reaction by Kitty because it makes an unreasonable assumption and ends all thought there. You don't say "Oh you're voting me because you think I'm towny? You're scum" and stop. That is, unless if you're not interested in actually trying to solve

You felt Kitty was “overreacting”? Really? I didn’t. It was a post dripping in sarcasm coupled with a vote. Not sure where the overreaction is. Which is why I felt Kitty’s vote was fine, and Scorpious’ reaction was bad.

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to explain in some detail why I think what I do, and then you can say whatever you want to say.

I never made the argument that my roll percentage was in any way relevant to determining my alignment this game. If you read the context of my comment, you will immediately realize it was a joke. I’ve already said as much. You grabbed onto it as part of an effort to slightly cast doubt upon my alignment (see 79, 87). You’re basically arguing that I’m relying on a logical fallacy to raise above suspicion, and make pointed arguments against someone you think are not there. The first one is straight up wrong (which I’ve already explained), the second one isn’t Scum indicative in my honest estimation. You’ve been asked these questions in different language by angela. You started getting questions about this and about your posts on NM, and you got slightly defensive (see 169). Which fine, maybe whatever. But then when I clarified that the number was an actual figure, you assumed I was lying. Which is terrible for a number of reasons. One, it makes me think you’re doubling down on your earlier take of my slot because I’m calling you Scum, so you can discard my read or make others at least question my push a bit. And two, because there is no Scum motivation to lie. Or at least I can’t think of one. Assume I’m Scum for a minute, and assume the number is manufactured. Do you really think I would have doubled down on the number, particularly since I had already stated it was a joke? I would have simply said yeah no of course not, I was kidding like I said. And that would have been that. It’s an idiotic thing to lie about, particularly as Scum. That number is never untrue is the point, but you seem to be manufacturing a reason to bash me (I would have accepted any answer but the one I provided, is basically what you said). Tou also seem to imply that I can’t do basic math which is just obnoxious. Overall, this is clear nonsense. And now you’re dismissing my response as an overreaction. It isn’t, and I think you’re quite likely to flip Scum.

Outside of that, I thought 148 was Scum indicative (“I’m fine with that policy execution, but I don’t want to push it” is the vibe I got). Also, I am perceiving Rathe to be Town, so I absolutely hate 208 and particularly your first sentence about giving Rathe a pass about their “horrible votes”.

[Andresvmb]

It really is a very low risk lim. Not really expecting much hunting from N_M.

I think you’re likely to be Scum. So I don’t want to do NM and would much rather you be executed.

If Scorpious is mafia and NM isn't then I'd argue Scorpious has no particular reason to divert the conversation away from NM - recurring chat about someone's meta role in a way that's disconnected from this particular game benefits mafia because it lets them coast by without actually having to post all that much content about this particular game.

I think it's probably unlikely they're mafia together though as it'd be too obvious a move for Scorpious to try and direct the chat away from NM. Personally feel like his annoyance seems genuine even if I don't fully agree with the extent to which he didn't want people discussing NM. If NM is mafia, then I reckon his teammates would have been more likely to try and move the conversation on naturally in a way that could appear more townie without making an obvious connection.

I hadn’t gotten to this post.

I think you’re wrong and I’ve detailed why. Feel free to engage with my thoughts in my most recent post about Scorpious. Not going to disagree that I don’t think Scorpious and NM are probably not SvS, unless it’s some elaborate distancing ploy that I don’t believe is occurring (much easier to just say the slot is null, let’s move on).

[Andresvmb]

You’re basically arguing that I’m relying on a logical fallacy to raise above suspicion

^rise above suspicion*

I meant to say that you seem to be arguing that I was using my roll % for others to think that I’m more likely to be Town, which you also seem to think is suspicious. I’m calling bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

The amount of double negatives in 356 make that post confusing from me.

I agree. I don’t think NM and Scorpious are SvS. If NM is Town, the motivation could be that Scorpious doesn’t think there’s tremendous benefit to execute NM. That could easily be a reason to want to divert attention away from the slot. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening, but if you perceive NM to potentially be detrimental to the Town, and a source of chaos, you might want to keep the slot around. This isn’t unheard of. I would argue it’s quite common for Scum to make arguments in favor of marginal players they think will benefit their win condition in the long run. So I would be careful about assuming that defense makes Scorpious more likely to be Town than Scum. Not saying this is what’s happening, but it’s definitely something to consider.

[Andresvmb]

Ah now I’m flailing?!

I’m going to insist on my vote for today, I think.

[Andresvmb]

I did answer your question, btw. You asked why did you feel it was relevant to share my roll %? I answered that it was a joke. Multiple times now. You accused me of lying and saying that this was noted. You have yet to admit to being wrong about that. Which, btw, you obviously are. You have failed to explain the Scum motivation behind even thinking about lying about it being a real number.

I’m not sure why you’re dismissing all my arguments (which there are a few) as excrement. Why not engage with them one by one? The problem is you are being condescending in an attempt to diminish me, but you’re not admitting it. Which is weird. You had to write out that if I had rolled Scum once after rolling Town 10 times, that percentage is meaningfully smaller than 96.2%. Which assumes I wouldn’t have considered that if I was insisting on lying about the number (which is what I’m calling obnoxious). Unless I really lack in basic math skills, I would immediately know that if I have played whatever number of games, I would have had to roll Scum a really small number of times for it to work. At most 2 in ~50 games. So where is my error?

[Andresvmb]

^to Scorpious.

[Andresvmb]

I will read all of your posts carefully later though. all I'm saying is i am worried your disagreement is rooted in difference of approach rather than alignment

It really isn’t.

[Andresvmb]

@angela do you think I’m being overly touchy?

Assume for a minute I’m being prickly. Why would that make me Scum? It’s a bullshit accusation and Scorpious doesn’t strike me as engaging in good faith. The vote on me is horrible, and anyone with a brain can see that 348 is full of condescension. The spelling out of the math, after I had already stated that I keep a detailed account of all the games I play, I find so obnoxious. They’re pushing a bullshit case, wholesale dismissing my arguments as “excrement”, and just tossing out the word “flailing” in a blatant effort to diminish my standing.

[Andresvmb]

i feel like we're getting distracted in crap that doesn't matter and ignoring what does matter like voting rathe

What? How are we being distracted “in crap”? Please elaborate.

[Andresvmb]

@angela do you think I’m being overly touchy?

Assume for a minute I’m being prickly. Why would that make me Scum? It’s a bullshit accusation and Scorpious doesn’t strike me as engaging in good faith. The vote on me is horrible, and anyone with a brain can see that 348 is full of condescension. The spelling out of the math, after I had already stated that I keep a detailed account of all the games I play, I find so obnoxious. They’re pushing a bullshit case, wholesale dismissing my arguments as “excrement”, and just tossing out the word “flailing” in a blatant effort to diminish my standing.

i think

like the way you are expressing things at times probably has a net negative effect on the game, for lack of a better way to phrase that,

but like i said doesn't necessarily seem like a mafia weighted thing to me

and scorpious approach has felt kinda ??? to me as well

Disagree on how I’m expressing things - I have very much attacked arguments and content, not players. I could be more diplomatic perhaps but frankly, around here no one pays attention to arguments that aren’t in your face.

[Andresvmb]

Disagree on how I’m expressing things - I have very much attacked arguments and content, not players. I could be more diplomatic perhaps but frankly, around here no one pays attention to arguments that aren’t in your face.

there isn't a lot of value in us discussing this during a game for obvious reasons,

and i wasn't trying to say you 'crossed the line' or 'broke the rules' or anything

but rather that i just think that if wrong you are more likely to find out from a different approach to interaction and it makes the game more pleasant to play

like i think the benefits of not being 'in your face' outweigh the benefits of being 'in your face' by a significant margin

but as previously mentioned i am not always so good about this myself and am trying to be better

and! yeah discussing this during a game probably an altogether bad idea

Yeah I wasn’t suggesting you were arguing I broke the rules. There’s no issue there and you don’t have to worry about that. Agreed on there not being tremendous benefit in discussing style because it’s difficult to convince each other either way and it’s informed by a variety of items including personality that maybe we can’t do much about.

I’m not “in your face” a whole lot in games when I’m unsure, to be honest. I try and keep it civil, express my thoughts as I have them, and not be too forward. But I did feel Scorpious’ case on me (the hints, the subsequent condescension and dismissal, and the insistence on me being untruthful - which btw, anybody independently can just go check at this point and confirm whether I’m right or not), and some of the other contributions were Scum indicative, and I felt I might as well make it obvious to get some reactions because the only other person really pushing it is you, and there’s a whole lot of slots that seem to want to just move on.

[Andresvmb]

I counted a Discord Mafia game I played called Nickelodeon Mafia where I was Town. So 24/25, or 96.0% (you have 25 games listed there). If I wanted to make myself exactly accurate, with this game, 25/26 (or 96.2%).

[Andresvmb]

But yeah you get it.

[Andresvmb]

I am sorry if i came off as hand-wavey earlier, I don't think it's all garbage or anything like that. But you and scorpios argument hits a lot of the familiar notes for me I guess to where it feels like an argument that isn't being informed by either of your alignments, and rather your play.

I looked at your initial vote. You said something like how you roll town often, then Scorp took you fairly seriously, interpreting it as a gamblers fallacy. You in response think, "You're accusing me of a gambler's fallacy? You can't seriously think I meant it like that, *vote*"

That just.... seems like a miscommunication to me more than anything

I expanded upon my reasoning. And in my view, the root of I t isn’t a miscommunication. I don’t think this is an accurate characterization of the situation, if I may say so.

[Andresvmb]

I felt the “Christ” was condescending. Perhaps sarcastic isn’t the exact term. Whichever way you prefer to describe it, I would argue it isn’t equal to an overreaction. If you think someone has bad logic, and you highlight that bad logic by using a remark like there, and then you put a vote down, at most you could argue that the reasoning is bad, or you could say that you disagree. But an overreaction? The accusation seems incorrect. Look if you want me to further that thought - I think Scorpious is using a rather innocuous post to cast shade onto a slot in a way I disagree with. How about that?

[Andresvmb]

I don't see why scum would have an "Oh yikes" moment and have to reel back that first post. That being said i like the observation

Can you expand upon why you like the observation? It seems like you’re saying that you don’t think there’s any Scum motivation behind that sequence of posts, but still think that the observation is a good one. You also seem to have said that you think I’m Town. Is there any reason why the vote on my slot isn’t raising any suspicions from you if that’s the case? Not trying to argue certain players should entirely be judged based on results, of course. I just think that’s interesting.

[Andresvmb]

There are a lot of towny players so far. I think gerain, Scorp, Andre, angela, Dragons are all town and i might even be able to expound upon those

pedit: I don't think i'm anything but fair there to be honest, at least for the first few posts in the exchange. I haven't read the lengthier later ones yet though, correct

I have to say - I really don’t like this grouping. Scorpious is expressing a lot of confidence that I’m Scum, yet you think both of us are Town? So you think I’m just way off? I also can’t quite understand why you would have STD in that early group of what seem like your surefire Town. geraintm even less so, especially when they’ve said that most of their posts are all just fluff. I would argue geraintm hasn’t deviated all that far away from null territory.

[Andresvmb]

Andres,

You’re just throwing shade anywhere you can fit it right now..
I don’t like it, but I don’t think scum comes out blasting like you do tbh.

UNVOTE:

This isn’t remotely accurate.

I have been very targeted with my shade and my questions. You just want to make broad statements about my play, but you’re way off.

[Andresvmb]

You don’t like my reasoning? Well tough shit.

man take a chill pill.

Hi

VOTE: save the dragon

You usually start with votes that are random, and are loathe to put a serious vote down. So what triggered this?

how do you know this is a serious vote?

Does no one else find it weird that half of the game instantly shuts down any and all discussion surrounding NM for some reason?

not really. So what NM is scum and his 2 buddies are like "hey let's steer this convo away from NM." and town just shuts up in fear? like what do you think here?

You’re the one probing aggressively at me, not the other way around. I didn’t know it was a serious vote. I now realize it wasn’t. That was clarified later.

You wanted content and then when you get it you make… this post.

[Andresvmb]

You don’t like my reasoning? Well tough shit.

man take a chill pill.

Hi

VOTE: save the dragon

You usually start with votes that are random, and are loathe to put a serious vote down. So what triggered this?

how do you know this is a serious vote?

Does no one else find it weird that half of the game instantly shuts down any and all discussion surrounding NM for some reason?

not really. So what NM is scum and his 2 buddies are like "hey let's steer this convo away from NM." and town just shuts up in fear? like what do you think here?

You’re the one probing aggressively at me, not the other way around. I didn’t know it was a serious vote. I now realize it wasn’t. That was clarified later.

You wanted content and then when you get it you make… this post.

All he did was point out a bad assumption you made, it was hardly aggressive.

I was talking about the first response, not the second one. I responded rudely because Nero was also rude in their very first interaction. The second question is valid and I didn’t imply otherwise.

[Andresvmb]

I was talking about the first response, not the second one. I responded rudely because Nero was also rude in their very first interaction. The second question is valid and I didn’t imply otherwise.

You mean the "Take a chill pill" comment..? That's a de-escalating comment, i'm not sure what you mean

Sigh. Alright I’ll explain this now and frankly just drop it - I don’t think Nero is Scum and this isn’t going anywhere.

Nero attacked my take on why I needed to be careful with Pooky. I obviously didn’t put forth reasoning I thought was stupid, but it’s also not a particularly strong point and I’m not playing the entire game tip toeing around Pooky because I’ve been wrong there before. Nero basically said it was shit. So I said that I didn’t care. I thought Nero was a bit rude, and I responded in kind. Asking me to “take a chill pill” is silly because they clearly weren’t kind and were trying to elicit a response. If I make a dig at you, and you then respond, it’s cheap to then be “oh but relax”.

If you think about it, Scorpious is doing this too, but Scorpious is an even worse offender. Scorpious says I’m throwing shade wherever (with no evidence mind you to back that up), and when I respond that the comment isn't remotely accurate, they accuse me of being defensive. If you aren’t willing to back up your point, then don’t be surprised when I dismiss it as terrible.

[Andresvmb]

It feels like we're seeing entirely different universes this game sometimes

For what it's worth though I do see the rude comment you're referring to now so I get the context better. I figured the "take a chill pill" was referring to you and Scorp, not you and Nero, i hadn't realized there was more to it. My apologies

No apology necessary.

And yes, we are seeing dramatically different universes. But there’s a very good reason for it. You’re TR’ing Scorpious. I find that read preposterous. However, I know my alignment. And I know Scorpious has made really reachy arguments and I can be sure of that because I know what I rolled. I’m totally ignoring btw the hilarious comment that they’ve been criticizing my imagined reliance on gambler’s fallacy only to make that post about how maybe I’m overdue to be Scum twice in a row. I am fully assuming that’s a joke and moving on.

I just don’t think my read there is totally imagined, and I think you’re way off because I’m assuming part of how you’re looking at the game depends on that read. angela has really hinted at this heavily in that the way they’ve approached trying to read me is so fatally flawed, it’s hard for me to conclude they’re Town. That’s what it boils down to.

[Andresvmb]

I think the backing off by saying I’m too aggressive for Scum (even though they did say aggressiveness wasn’t AI just before) is a form of self-defense.

I can also see my suspicions are being dismissed wholesale by most players so I’ll attach myself to whatever case I find most convincing elsewhere then and stick to that. I’m just not going to try and impose my opinion too much because it’ll just be aggravating.

[Andresvmb]

I think the backing off by saying I’m too aggressive for Scum (even though they did say aggressiveness wasn’t AI just before) is a form of self-defense.

I can also see my suspicions are being dismissed wholesale by most players so I’ll attach myself to whatever case I find most convincing elsewhere then and stick to that. I’m just not going to try and impose my opinion too much because it’ll just be aggravating.

I’m talking about 398 and 430.

[Andresvmb]

I have yet to really look at Scorp super critically i guess, it's just that Scorp/Angela and Scorp/you have been having arguments that really hit a lot of the "this is not AI" notes for me and from what i did read from him i was agreeing with

It could be very well that you are correct it just wasnt my first instinct. I should do better to recognize what exactly is colouring my view of the gamestate tbh but i am trying my best!

If I’m being totally honest, I would really appreciate you expanding on what exactly is not AI and what do you think is, and what you’re conclusion is when you have a moment. I have played enough mafia games that I don’t think I get myself into fights a lot about stuff that has no bearing on someone’s alignment.

[Andresvmb]

I have yet to really look at Scorp super critically i guess, it's just that Scorp/Angela and Scorp/you have been having arguments that really hit a lot of the "this is not AI" notes for me and from what i did read from him i was agreeing with

It could be very well that you are correct it just wasnt my first instinct. I should do better to recognize what exactly is colouring my view of the gamestate tbh but i am trying my best!

If I’m being totally honest, I would really appreciate you expanding on what exactly is not AI and what do you think is, and what you’re conclusion is when you have a moment. I have played enough mafia games that I don’t think I get myself into fights a lot about stuff that has no bearing on someone’s alignment.

hahaha i still get into fights with no bearing on alignment plenty. That's just playing the game. i need someone else to tell me too, or else I won't stop

I think a large amount of fights that happen on day one are like that to tell you the truth.

i'll definitely try and elaborate on my exact feelings later today. I might end up agreeing with you on scorp or maybe it'll at least communicate what i was seeing earlier better

I agree it happens a lot D1. I don’t think I do it an enormous amount. Everybody does it because yeah, everyone makes mistakes. That includes me.

Regardless of how often it may or may not happen, I am very interested in how it applies to Scorpious. Because at a gut level, I really strongly disagree.

[Andresvmb]

You don’t think saying “I think your logic is kind of dumb” is a bit rude? You can’t think of a better way to say that?

I know I can come across as aggressive. That’s fine. But don’t dump the entire fault at my feet, because that’s just not fair. Nero you’ve been criticized in other games as being blunt. Or do you think I’m just making it up?

[Andresvmb]

I gotta say, I’m going to try and be careful with your slot.

y?

your reason sounds kinda dumb

Here is the actual quote. So I’m not accused of manipulating your words.

[Andresvmb]

dude, I'm not dumping the fault on you. Yeah, I'm blunt, sue me.

You’re suggesting my reaction was unwarranted. I’m explaining why I reacted the way I did. By suggesting I’m overly angry, and that you weren’t rude first, you’re dismissing my point that it was in response to something you said. I think you’re wrong. But I don’t really care. This isn’t very helpful for determining alignment, and it’s a small point. I was just clarifying what had happened, because Morning Tweet made a comment and I thought they were off base.

[Andresvmb]

Fundamentally, what I’m trying to avoid is to be dismissed as too reactionary, or overly defensive, or whatever. Because I don’t think I’m imagining what I’m seeing about Scorpious. And it’s just so much easier to dismiss my concerns if I’m just an overreacting, aggressive player with no concept of civility, who is arguing things that aren’t alignment indicative. Like I want responses to my opinion, and I want to see whether what others think. I’m totally open to the idea I’m wrong, but I want explanations. It’s too easy to just say yeah here we go with Andrés again, and none of my actual points debated.

[Andresvmb]

Galron/geraintm/Andres

For what? Scum I take it?

[Andresvmb]

Here is my early view of the game:

Lean Town
{angela}
Slight Lean Town
{Nero Cain, Galron, PookyTheMagicalBear, Rathe}
Neutral
{geraintm, KittyTacky}
Slight Lean Scum
{Save The Dragons, MalcolmTucker}
Lean Scum
{Scorpious}
Scum
{ }
Uncertain
{Morning Tweet, Not_Mafia}

[Andresvmb]

You’re suggesting my reaction was unwarranted

I said no such thing. I said that

I

didn't feel like I was being rude. Do you think that maybe just maybe the guy that wrote the post actually knows his own thoughts and feelings? I mean sure maybe I was unintentionally rude b/c I have the vocabulary of a 3rd grader but I wasn't trying to be. As you pointed out I've been criticized for it b4.

You didn’t say it, but you implied it. And it’s confirmed by the fact that you don’t think you were being rude. Put differently, how could you possibly think I reacted appropriately if you don’t think you did anything wrong? I absolutely grant you that you were probably not trying to be rude. But from where I stand, I’m telling you that I perceived it as rude, and reacted in kind. Again, this is mostly pointless, because it doesn’t really matter. My feelings aren’t hurt or whatever, and I don’t really care. I recognize you’re blunt and I don’t have a problem with that part. We’ve played enough that I know what to expect. I wasn’t getting offended if you will, but I certainly will respond however I see fit if you call my reasoning kind of dumb haha I mean, you can’t possibly be surprised that I reacted negatively. If you expected me to be like yeah no you’re right my thinking was totally dumb, I’m not sure what to tell you.

[Andresvmb]

Andres,
come out of your tunnel a little..

Who else pings you?

Btw, I’m not tunneling you. In my view, at this point, I think you’re the most likely player to flip Scum. You’re also not the only player I’ve commented on. I’ve also said I’m not going to impose my opinion too strongly. I don’t have the time or patience. But if you think I’m just going to forget how I perceive your slot because I’m not gaining much traction, you’re sorely mistaken.

[Andresvmb]

hahaha right next to NM! i love it

Why's Galron town for you?

I’ll explain why.

Earlier, you pinged me because of how you were “defending” Scorpious. You aren’t saying they’re Town, but you’re softly attacking the cases put forth against the slot. So of course that pings me. But you don’t sound irrational to me, and you seem curious (which is slightly Town positive because well, it’s just another way of me saying that I’m perceiving some of your questions as coming from an uninformed mindset.) At the same time, you’re experienced, and I’m solidly Scum on Scorpious and that’s distorting my world view a bit.

Not_Mafia actually pinged me positively earlier. If you could believe it. I thought the post about them being overly hyped was funny. But their solve is… yeah, not similar to what I’m seeing, so that’s concerning. And they’re naturally a black hole.

I hate having to do this, but Galron boils down to gut feeling. The post about them being in their head too much and needing to read and post later seemed honest. It’s not a strong vibe.

[Andresvmb]

And by saying that you’re experienced I’m saying that you could be faking the curiosity or hiding well. Less experienced Scum are much easier to spot - I don’t think that’s a controversial take.

[Andresvmb]

I need to re-read KittyTacky. I don’t know what to make of them. I want to say I have read all of their posts, but I don’t know that I’ve tried to ascertain their alignment.

Pooky seems fine haha but they’re probably too eager to execute someone this early. It’s very obvious there’s a lot of disagreement so I think it’s going to take some time for there to be consolidation where maybe we can actually try and push something through.

[Andresvmb]

514 - this is objectively a bad take yeah? Is Scorpious the only person I have as potential Scum? Does anybody else agree?

[Andresvmb]

To make it easier - {Scorpious, Save The Dragons, MalcolmTucker} is my pool for an execution today. I’m not offended by an execution of Not_Mafia, but I think it’s not better than random if I may say so (so not great). I would argue the same for geraintm. I’m not going to vote for {angela, Nero Cain, Pooky, Rathe}, and Galron I think is maybe Town but that one I’m just not sure about. The slot is not high on my execution list at present. I need to really determine how I feel about KittyTacky (I just don’t know), and I’m keeping an eye out for Morning Tweet, but I also don’t think they’re a good execution today. And that’s because as skeptical as I feel about the slot, I think they’ll make solid contributions or make their alignment somewhat more obvious over time.

[Andresvmb]

I need to focus on work for the next 24 hours or so, so I’ll be back tomorrow night. I’ll try to keep up when I can.

[Andresvmb]

You were proven to be wrong, not the other way around. The fact that you fail to grasp something so basic is just beyond me.

How can you conclude that me saying my rate is 25/26, and then admitting that I included one game on a different platform, but the actual number being 24/25 (96%), means that you were right? It’s like aggressive nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I misread your post. Just ignore that I want this subject to be dead.

[Andresvmb]

And it wasn’t proven to be true by angela. This is the basic distinction you are failing to grasp. I clearly knew the number. Or at the very least, I showed that I at the very least kept a reasonably accurate record of the games I’ve played. And that’s NOT why I think you’re Scum. I’ve been questioning your thought process and your way of approaching my slot and others. That’s the fundamental item you’re not understanding.

[Andresvmb]

So stop phrasing it as it being driven by a disagreement over a number. I find that incredible. At the very least try and understand the reasoning behind a read.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

I don’t like having to admit this, but I think Scorpious Town told yesterday. So I think Morning Tweet is right.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Galron

[Andresvmb]

dont agree on scorp but happy to be wrong

Why don’t you agree?

[Andresvmb]

That’s not good enough. Cite actual reasons within the game as to why Scorpious is Scum. I think I tried to do that and then I realized Scorpious was annoying me more than they were being Scummy. They’ve done something that’s really +Town in my mind which is why I’m totally switching tracks but I want to see what you say first.

[Andresvmb]

what makes him townie?

You’re deflecting. Answer my question first.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but I don’t disagree on your criticism about the approach Scorpious has taken at times. I have been at the forefront of criticizing it (as has angela). Having said that, Scorpious has been

too

insistent in my mind, and then they backtracked and starting treating me like stubborn Town which

maybe

could be Scum trying to draw less attention to themselves but strategically, it doesn’t make sense. They’re better off doubling down on trying to attack me, I think.

And you were deflecting. I asked you to cite why within the game you view Scorpious a certain way. And you asked a question to me instead of answering. You’ve answered now, but it’s almost like you don’t think Town can make mistakes (which I believe I have here), or focus on innocuous things. Which is a bit surprising coming from you.

[Andresvmb]

^started treating me*

[Andresvmb]

I was baffled by the focus on a % I quoted which clearly was based on facts. But the surprise at the number wasn’t the part that I found Scummy (I think Scorpious is right about that actually - it’s not surprising they would, initially, think the number was made up). What annoyed me (and drove my view initially) is that they maintained I was lying (and openly accused me of doing so) even when I had been very specific about the fact that it wasn’t invented. Even if you still didn’t believe me at that point, you should have either checked (understandable you wouldn’t though since that’s some exercise), or just drop it entirely. Because it’s really unhelpful to finding Scum.

Having said all of that, being skeptical about it in a way reflects a Town mindset. Does that make sense? You’re here to find who is lying and Scum, and who isn’t and can be trusted. Even if I think you’re wrong to focus on that, it reflects at the very least that Scorpious isn’t here to simply accept things at face value. And that, in and of itself, is +Town in a way. But what I also mentioned was their responses yesterday. They just struck me as coming from Town that is trying to move on and continue digging through the game. If they wanted to dig their heels in and avoid spewing others (while keeping their post count up, which as you know matters somewhat), they could have kept going against me. They decided not to. I can’t make sense of that strategically.

That’s what I was thinking.

I also really disliked geraintm’s pileup there, so there’s that too.

[Andresvmb]

why would he double down and attack you when he has no traction on you

MalcolmTucker was voting me, and Kitty thinks I’m null. This isn’t entirely accurate.

[Andresvmb]

why cant he be scum and not believe your roll percentage?

I don’t think Scum would openly accuse me of lying about something like that. When I’m Scum, D1 at least, I try and keep my accusations somewhat more vague (a bit like what you’re doing right now). Because it’s easier to defend later in the game when my targets flip Town. If Scorpious was Scum, I doubt they would go accuse someone of lying about something specific. Or insist on that for so long. Because the minute they’re proven to be wrong on the facts, then they look bad. Scum would instinctively look to avoid that.

[Andresvmb]

why would he double down and attack you when he has no traction on you

MalcolmTucker was voting me, and Kitty thinks I’m null. This isn’t entirely accurate.

i dont think either of them are very influential in being able to force an elim thru atm

This I don’t disagree on.

[Andresvmb]

But it still doesn’t mean they weren’t getting

any

traction.

[Andresvmb]

why cant he be scum and not believe your roll percentage?

I don’t think Scum would openly accuse me of lying about something like that. When I’m Scum, D1 at least, I try and keep my accusations somewhat more vague (a bit like what you’re doing right now). Because it’s easier to defend later in the game when my targets flip Town. If Scorpious was Scum, I doubt they would go accuse someone of lying about something specific. Or insist on that for so long. Because the minute they’re proven to be wrong on the facts, then they look bad. Scum would instinctively look to avoid that.

ok but this dude literally claimed bulletproof cop once and got away with it so I'm not really a fan of townreading him based on "i wouldn't do this as scum so he wouldn't do this as scum"

Well, I did (I) limit my point to D1, (ii) and made a general point (not just about what I would avoid personally). But fair that perhaps Scorpious might do that thinking fighting over something like that might be thought of as Towny. This obviously doesn’t apply to mechanics - circumstances can clearly force you to lie about roles, and that’s generally expected. Skepticism about a

claim

is materially different than skepticism about a fact unrelated to the game though.

[Andresvmb]

you're townreading him for doing something you wouldn't do as scum

that is a bad reason to townread him because you are not him.

This is… sigh Pooky c’mon. Read my entire post. If I’m going to actually expand upon my thinking, then don’t grab onto the one thing you disagree with to discard my read entirely.

[Andresvmb]

@Pooky talk to me about what you make of Morning Tweet.

[Andresvmb]

i feel like it's fairly clear angela/scorp/andres are town at this point

i think scum is in like, Pooky/Nero/Galron

I don't think Kitty is scum as much and Rathe pretty much said what i was thinking with regards to scum being more on the quiet side and Scorp/Angela/andres all likely being town

At worst there's one scum in that group but I wouldn't know which rn

i dont believe tweetie actually srs me so this post is quite ??? to me

Like what is ?? about this post? Why couldn’t they think you’re Scum?

[Andresvmb]

I've been lost in my own thoughts past day or so. I will catch up tonight.

Looking forward to you actually doing this in detail.

[Andresvmb]

lets just vote Scorp, he's clearly not reading.

VOTE: Scorpious

Nero I was reading your ISO and I’m not sure I fully understand this vote. You’ve had some solid takes about for instance what you’re seeing on KittyTacky, and your criticism of geraintm doesn’t seem unfounded. But I don’t think you expanded a whole lot about this vote, and Scorpious clearly has a lot of content so perhaps you can elaborate further. What are you seeing? I’m not seeing as much of the fiery attitude from you that I typically see.

[Andresvmb]

for context:

tweetie just modded a game where me!scum fooled galron!town at elo so it should make sense to her that galron would enter this game somewhat paranoid of me.

he was also similarly lost/inactivish throughout her game

so its weird to me she would think me/galron are partnered AND decide to vote for galron btw the two of us.

To be fair, Galron hasn’t been particularly active this game, and seems to have taken a massive step back, so a vote there to get more out of the slot isn’t absurd. But I can see where you’re coming from with this.

[Andresvmb]

galron was mostly inactive for the entire game that tweetie modded so i dont see how she scumreads him for not being around here.

You could lobby this defense for an inactive partner though.

[Andresvmb]

They might also think that Galron as a first step is an easier execution to expose the Scum Team instead of going against you head on early when it’s much harder to eliminate active, solid players.

[Andresvmb]

@Pooky your vote has been sitting on Kitty for a long time. Is that the player you really think should be executed today?

[Andresvmb]

also like did i miss it or did our favorite cow walk in and do anything ai cuz why did tweet just randomly drop him from her scum list?

As far as I can tell Not_Mafia has been very detached from this particular game.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: scorpious

I'm getting town vibes from Scorpious a good bit, I don't think their posts are perfect but for the most part they seem genuine in a way I don't reckon is too mafia at the moment.

this feels like the exact sort of post someone makes with a green flip in mine.
this and the subsequent post do ping me a little

I’m reading this back, and I can’t make sense of this at all. Isn’t geraintm saying here that MalcolmTucker is spewing Scorpious Town? Even if you are intent on just voting whatever is the largest wagon at different times, you could hold off on putting your vote down somewhere that contradicts directly with a point you’re trying to make.

[Andresvmb]

@Pooky your vote has been sitting on Kitty for a long time. Is that the player you really think should be executed today?

ill probly end up sheeping whatever angela wants tbh

Why angela?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but I don’t disagree on your criticism about the approach Scorpious has taken at times. I have been at the forefront of criticizing it (as has angela). Having said that, Scorpious has been

too

insistent in my mind, and then they backtracked and starting treating me like stubborn Town which

maybe

could be Scum trying to draw less attention to themselves but strategically, it doesn’t make sense. They’re better off doubling down on trying to attack me, I think.

and like, this just seems like a kinda weird assumption to me,

like there are just so many other variables (what if partnered with one of the others being counted as pressuring you, what if changing tactic because leading wagon and you are on that wagon, etc)

Well we know that Scorpious unvoted me before I unvoted back, so the second part of your post doesn’t make sense, right. Because my vote was still on Scorpious as was the bulk of my attention. The only other player actively pressuring me was MalcolmTucker. Either Scorpious piled on after MalcolmTucker criticized my early posts (either as Scum both, or MalcolmTucker as Town and wrong, which maybe), but then why move away before MalcolmTucker does? Or Scorpious realized they weren’t getting anywhere (which I believe Pooky alluded to), and wants to push someone else. Which maybe? And yeah, some of this is probably influence by what you think Scum tend to do. If you think they’re more likely to

want to appear Town

instead of

drive mis-executions

, then you’ll probably think (like I do) that the line of attack and ultimately moving away and changing their mind at that stage is +Town (because like I explained, I think I’m not the only player that has expressed reservations with how Scorpious is approaching other players - all you have to do is read the exchange with Pooky for that). If you think they’re more likely to want to make sure that Town is executed, then perhaps it’s +Scum to you.

I don’t know if any of that makes sense, but I am trying to lay down how I thought about the situation and why I felt strategically, they were probably better off continuing to find reasons to stay on me and just drift somewhat to the background. Scorpious just hasn’t done that.

[Andresvmb]

what if partnered with one of the others being counted as pressuring you

right because then instead of it being

some

pressure but certainly not nearly enough

it would be effectively zero pressure and would definitely need to collectively pivot

and its probably worth noting that malcolmtucker then immediately moved vote when next arrived to thread

and also said was doing so because was now townreading andresvmb

rather than because no longer a viable wagon, so

I guess I would ask you - do you think MalcolmTucker is Scum at this point in time?

[Andresvmb]

what if partnered with one of the others being counted as pressuring you

right because then instead of it being

some

pressure but certainly not nearly enough

it would be effectively zero pressure and would definitely need to collectively pivot

and its probably worth noting that malcolmtucker then immediately moved vote when next arrived to thread

and also said was doing so because was now townreading andresvmb

rather than because no longer a viable wagon, so

I've not completely cleared Andre yet but their approach to the game has felt more helpful and they just inherently seem more townie than mafia despite early reservations, like they're trying to drive the game forward and get reads out of people in a way that can hopefully help spark some life into the game and mafia probably don't need to do that turn one unless they're under threat of going out. Mafia andre probably pushes Scorpious a bit more given that wagon was forming.

i am questioning the read of scorpious there more than anything else, while also questioning morning tweet's read of the whole situation

as like, it doesn't actually make a lot of sense to me for andresvmb to think scorpious is town for that

and while i think it would probably be better for mafia!andresvmb not partnered with scorpious to hold tight, i also have been trying not to clear people for not doing what i think would be optimal for mafia as much anymore

because

a) has led to me being wrong previously

and

b) not everyone agrees with what would be optimal for mafia to do

I do think it’s interesting that you think Scum!Me would probably benefit from holding tight on Scorpious, but you don’t think the same for Scum!Scorpious (them holding tight on voting me). Like in my humble experience, I’m not so sure that Scum want to have the people they’re voting D1 actually flipped. It’s much more powerful long-term to be voting someone for reasons that others view as valid, but have the Town drive a mis-execution elsewhere. I don’t know if you can necessarily plan for it, but depending on who is seeing pressure, perhaps you think you can stay the course, not draw too much attention, and stay away from the execution (provided it’s not your buddy). And to an extent, I think Scorpious recognizes that they don’t have that much power to drive any execution here (outside of their vote), so I don’t perceive them as wanting to push forth a viable wagon on a Town player. But yeah, lots of assumptions there for sure, and I could very well be wrong.

Like I said, I’m trying to lay out what drove my gut reaction, see if it makes any sense haha it’s probably all gibberish.

[Andresvmb]

b) not everyone agrees with what would be optimal for mafia to do

like to me

a lot of people very very heavily overvalue being townread as mafia

but if andresvmb is one of those who do heavily value being townread as mafia, then might not hold tight instead of reciprocating the deescalation

I think I can provide my thinking. I could also point to the Mafia PT of the last game I played - I laid out in a lot of detail what I was trying to do.

In general, I care a lot less as Mafia about being TR for the sake of being TR. I care about being TR so that I can drive the Town down a cliff. Like I will make sacrifices for how I’m perceived in the long-run (like I will open myself up to the accusation that I’m full of shit after driving multiple mis-executions), if it improves the odds that my Team overall will win the game. There’s reasons for this, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to discuss in game. But fundamentally, depending on how the game is shaping up, I will sacrifice my personal standing in the game if I think it makes it more likely that the Team as a whole will win in the end.

As Town, I don’t play like that. I think the most important thing as Town is to be TR (which is why I think you’ll see me get somewhat upset / angry when I’m being misread by multiple players). And for me, that involves doing what I do every time I play, which is to stumble like an idiot in the dark but lay out my thinking so that it’s clear where my assumptions are, where I could be going wrong, and what I think is happening. Though I think I’m not below average in my ability to identify Scum, I don’t think I’m above average to the point that I should be sheeped constantly. I just do my best to stay on top of the game and make some arguments that make some sense and see what happens.

If you don’t trust my self-meta because well, self-meta is garbage and all that, then I invite you to read some of my more recent games. I think you should be able to identify what I’m saying here.

[Andresvmb]

like there are just so many other variables (what if partnered with one of the others being counted as pressuring you, what if changing tactic because leading wagon and you are on that wagon, etc)

Well we know that Scorpious unvoted me before I unvoted back, so the second part of your post doesn’t make sense, right. Because my vote was still on Scorpious as was the bulk of my attention.

sorry, i did not explain this very well - i know scorpious unvoted before you did, that's what i meant by 'changing tactic because leading wagon and you are on that wagon'

like scorpious, as it stood, would quite possibly be eliminated so if mafia would be unlikely to simply hold position

and appealing to someone on the wagon by unvoting them and such makes a lot of sense as a tactic in that situation,

The only other player actively pressuring me was MalcolmTucker. Either Scorpious piled on after MalcolmTucker criticized my early posts (either as Scum both, or MalcolmTucker as Town and wrong, which maybe), but then why move away before MalcolmTucker does? Or Scorpious realized they weren’t getting anywhere (which I believe Pooky alluded to), and wants to push someone else. Which maybe? And yeah, some of this is probably influence by what you think Scum tend to do. If you think they’re more likely to

want to appear Town

instead of

drive mis-executions

, then you’ll probably think (like I do) that the line of attack and ultimately moving away and changing their mind at that stage is +Town (because like I explained, I think I’m not the only player that has expressed reservations with how Scorpious is approaching other players - all you have to do is read the exchange with Pooky for that). If you think they’re more likely to want to make sure that Town is executed, then perhaps it’s +Scum to you.

I don’t know if any of that makes sense, but I am trying to lay down how I thought about the situation and why I felt strategically, they were probably better off continuing to find reasons to stay on me and just drift somewhat to the background. Scorpious just hasn’t done that.

and then, your wagon is all but dissolved, and malcolmtucker comes to game, is now also townreading you, as opposed to just leaving your wagon because now unviable,

which seems kinda hmm to me

and i, kinda regardless of what i think scum are more likely to do, think scum!scorpious wouldn't really be able to stay on you and drift to the background, because scorpious was the leading wagon and i don't think scorpious would have deemed continuing to battle you as being more likely to result in your elimination rather than scorpious's elimination

Yeah I can see what you’re saying here. But you’re not really saying then what you’re thinking, which is that you think MalcolmTucker and/or Scorpious is Scum. If I’m reading your posts correctly, you seem to be saying that they both planned on pushing me with the hope that it would catch on, and when it didn’t (and instead made it more likely that one of them would be executed), they dropped the push and started looking elsewhere. Yeah?

[Andresvmb]

I think there’s an emotional component to this. I think Scorpious was somewhat emotionally invested in getting me executed. From their posts to how they were approaching me, it felt like they truly wanted to convince others that I’m Scum. I thought it was emotionally difficult for Scorpious to pivot when they did. I think in my head I saw that as being done out of a desire to get the right answer, which I felt was Towny. That’s probably what overall lead me to say that I felt it was more often coming from Town.

I appreciate what you’re doing, which is that you’re considering all of the alternatives, but I guess I arrived at the conclusion that it tilted positively and didn’t immediately explain why. I was also kind of annoyed at unvoting. I have an ego too, and admitting that I feel I was wrong isn’t what I want to be doing. I would much rather be right and have Scum just have to move away from me because they can’t win a fight against me.

[Andresvmb]

If you think they’re more likely to want to appear Town instead of drive mis-executions,

Why do you believe that these are mutually exclusive?

Which situation are you applying it to?

They’re not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it’s easier to be TR if you’re not the person leading an execution D1 on Town.

[Andresvmb]

If you think they’re more likely to want to appear Town instead of drive mis-executions,

Why do you believe that these are mutually exclusive?

Which situation are you applying it to?

They’re not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it’s easier to be TR if you’re not the person leading an execution D1 on Town.

This sounds like one of those mafia maxims that are bandied about in order to mislead.

I'm not saying you're scum for it, but it's easy to fall into that trap.

If you’re going to criticize one assumption I’m making that relates to one read I have, then perhaps you want to share your own reads? I don’t think you’ve done much since you said you needed to get your thoughts together.

[Andresvmb]

good rathe posts

only worry with this would be

like

if rathe was also in need of wagon

Do you think Scum “need” a wagon?

[Andresvmb]

that last exchange with angela was pretty head scratching scorpius do u have a lag when posting

angela was answering ur questions but u kept asking

Kinda feel like this is another case of players just firing 4/5 posts off at each other at a time and then missing the important ones. Which we've all sometimes been guilty of.

This shouldn’t be plural. The only player clearly missing posts and trying to pressure angela in a nonsensical way is Scorpious.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

Like at times I’m getting the vibe that Scorpious is trying to seem like they’re sorting players, but they’re doing in such a heavy handed / confusing way, that I start thinking that it’s for show.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also perceiving some of these attacks on geraintm as easy ones to make. geraintm does get notably better as the game goes on, and sure it’s tough to read them D1 since they play the exact same way, and excluding them just naturally makes it a lot harder to nail a Scum D1, but I would agree that there are Scummier players in the game.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Scorpious

[Andresvmb]

I also have realized that I have way too many Scum Reads now.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also perceiving some of these attacks on geraintm as easy ones to make. geraintm does get notably better as the game goes on, and sure it’s tough to read them D1 since they play the exact same way, and excluding them just naturally makes it a lot harder to nail a Scum D1, but I would agree that there are Scummier players in the game.

(If geraintm actually happens to be Scum that is)

[Andresvmb]

How is my push “horrible” exactly? You do realize I have spent, outside of angela perhaps, the most amount of time trying to sort you right? I’m clearly not the only player (unless you think the entire Scum Team is making the same argument and it’s in bad faith) thinking that you’re constantly cherry picking at statements to make weak as hell cases in ways that at least to me come across as pretty poor.

[Andresvmb]

Lol, I’m scum again because you decided to parrot Angela?

She said everything you just posted..

I’m not parroting anyone. It’s obvious to see. That’s the point.

[Andresvmb]

The way you’re reacting to my vote is

ridiculous

. You keep apologizing for making reading comprehension mistakes, and have seen multiple players question you on it (Nero Cain, Rathe, angela, me), but I just happen to be the one parroting another player, and I’m the player you vote. Why? You’re engaging in such obvious OMGUS I don’t know what to think.

[Andresvmb]

Like how do you conclude after everything I’ve posted that I’m pushing you in bad faith, and not due to a genuine confusion as to how you’re going about pushing players?

[Andresvmb]

Mailman is confirmable, but says nothing about your alignment. Just so we’re clear.

[Andresvmb]

Like I wouldn’t stop voting you just so I can preserve a mailman. There’s probably multiple elements of the game I’m missing obviously with incomplete information, but I’m not all of a sudden going to start thinking oh a mailman? That’s such an important role, I need to immediately unvote.

Having said that, what it does do is confirm at night that you’re away from where the NK takes place (unless you can multi-task), which I suppose on balance is a positive.

Can someone chime in here?

[Andresvmb]

Does anybody want to guess the chances this flips Scum?

[Andresvmb]

@Not_Mafia have you claimed? If so, claim.

[Andresvmb]

Sigh. I really don’t want to hammer you. Seems like a bad vote given how the wagon built.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Save The Dragons

[Andresvmb]

@Morning Tweet, @Scorpious you really should vote elsewhere at this point.

[Andresvmb]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

I think Not_Mafia is marginally Town. I think Save The Dragons is slightly Scummy. They’ve voted for {Morning Tweet, Galron, Rathe} and honestly, do you think they’ve made any solid arguments?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: angela

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t appreciated how Scorpious has approached the game so far, but I have a hard time seeing how they’re straight up lying about sending angela a message.

I re-read some of what Scorpious’ has been posting. I would argue they’re not all that likely to be Scum to be honest. Not the greatest player perhaps, but probably not Scum. I also really didn’t like how angela was speaking about Not_Mafia towards the end of the day yesterday, covertly trying to dissuade me from saving Not_Mafia. So I’m beginning to think I’m being fooled by angela, and the slot deserves some pressure.

@Scorpious, what did your message say?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

The fact that you’ve defaulted to arguing that Scorpious and I were doing theater is a major head scratcher. I have engaged in distancing and theater before, but I have a hard time believing you immediately assume I’m Scum with Scorpious as Town (instead of, say, just wrong?).

[Andresvmb]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

I think Not_Mafia is marginally Town. I think Save The Dragons is slightly Scummy. They’ve voted for {Morning Tweet, Galron, Rathe} and honestly, do you think they’ve made any solid arguments?

hm kinda curious about what you’ve found marginally towny from not mafia

but also feel like that wouldn’t make you worry about the way the wagon formed?

And I’m speaking about this post.

[Andresvmb]

Okay actually, let me take a step back though.

It’s very likely that Scorpious is being set up here. They claimed Mailman, but have had a hard time connecting with anyone and have gathered a lot of votes. So the Scum, who probably have a Jailkeeper or something of the sort, prevented Scorpious from firing a message to make them look like they’re lying (and a real easy target).

[Andresvmb]

Does anybody really think Mailman is the first role Scum use to fake claim? Are you serious?

[Andresvmb]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

[Andresvmb]

They’re being set up, and not only are Kitty and you encouraging it with no skepticism, but now you’re arguing I’m partnered with Scorpious? Why don’t you go back and read at our exchanges and point to how it’s theater then. If that’s what you’re going to argue.

[Andresvmb]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

What where you trying to insinuate with this then? Why don’t you help me out?

[Andresvmb]

Scorpious doesn’t lie about being a mailman unless they’re playing way sub-optimally. In my mind, they’re either being set up (with a block), or you’re Ascetic angela, and Scum. Either way, Scorpious is a horrendous execution unless you can convincingly argue why Scum would lie about being a mailman. Have you seen that before? D1?

[Andresvmb]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

[Andresvmb]

Besides I have reason to suspect this setup has a scum mailman. Trust me on this.

You should clarify this.

[Andresvmb]

Either way, Scorpious is a horrendous execution unless you can convincingly argue why Scum would lie about being a mailman.

scorpious is a mafia because scorpious is lying about the mailman; it does not matter why

It’s a dumb fucking lie. No one in their right mind would lie about it. The fact that you’re trying to convince people without even a hint of doubt about this is such a red flag I’m stunned.

[Andresvmb]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

why would it be

a good idea

to vote within the not mafia wagon?

And how is this a serious question?

[Andresvmb]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

yes they do

all of the time

it's one of the best ways to win as mafia

look at game the mafia team won scummy for last year with unlikely day one fake claim

What was the claim?

[Andresvmb]

Malcolm is Town. One of angela/Kitty/Save The Dragons can die today as far as I’m concerned so far.

@Nero Cain, Rathe I want to see some comments from you I’m interested in your perspectives.

[Andresvmb]

Malcolm is Town. One of angela/Kitty/Save The Dragons can die today as far as I’m concerned so far.

@Nero Cain, Rathe I want to see some comments from you I’m interested in your perspectives.

wait

why is malcolmtucker town?

scorpious is a mafia and lying

why would a team of me/kittytacky/x push this?

this entire thing continues to be nonsensical

I’m not shutting my brain down and arguing that there’s no chance in hell that Scorpious isn’t Scum. It’s possible. Their focus has been strange, and Pooky and I rightly bashed it (as did you). But your insistence that they’re lying without considering that perhaps they’re being set up seems weird to me.

Just my gut is telling me that mailman is a bad fake claim. It is. You could argue it’s a quirky fake claim that buys you time if implemented properly. But long-term, it’s difficult to maintain as Scum because it’s confirmable. What I assumed would happen if Scorpious was Scum is that they would be plenty able to send a message, and that this would let them pocket players. I certainly didn’t immediately assume they would be straight up lying (like I said, extremely hard to maintain long-term). So yeah, I really didn’t expect that they would claim to have sent a message, and then that the message would not have arrived at their destination. Because it sets up a 1v1 that is very much tilted against them. It’s very easy to assume that well, they lied to stay alive, they’re lying about their message, so they need to die.

I low-key also suspect that if they wanted to establish a 1v1, they would have picked me funny enough. Or a player that they could have more easily defeated in a 1v1. As a choice angela, based on how D1, you feel like a terrible choice.

[Andresvmb]

Malcolm is Town. One of angela/Kitty/Save The Dragons can die today as far as I’m concerned so far.

@Nero Cain, Rathe I want to see some comments from you I’m interested in your perspectives.

wait

why is malcolmtucker town?

scorpious is a mafia and lying

why would a team of me/kittytacky/x push this?

this entire thing continues to be nonsensical

I’m not shutting my brain down and arguing that there’s no chance in hell that Scorpious isn’t Scum. It’s possible. Their focus has been strange, and Pooky and I rightly bashed it (as did you). But your insistence that they’re lying without considering that perhaps they’re being set up seems weird to me.

Just my gut is telling me that mailman is a bad fake claim. It is. You could argue it’s a quirky fake claim that buys you time if implemented properly. But long-term, it’s difficult to maintain as Scum because it’s confirmable. What I assumed would happen if Scorpious was Scum is that they would be plenty able to send a message, and that this would let them pocket players. I certainly didn’t immediately assume they would be straight up lying (like I said, extremely hard to maintain long-term). So yeah, I really didn’t expect that they would claim to have sent a message, and then that the message would not have arrived at their destination. Because it sets up a 1v1 that is very much tilted against them. It’s very easy to assume that well, they lied to stay alive, they’re lying about their message, so they need to die.

I low-key also suspect that if they wanted to establish a 1v1, they would have picked me funny enough. Or a player that they could have more easily defeated in a 1v1. As a choice angela, based on how D1, you feel like a terrible choice.

i did consider this though

but if so it's that they are being setup by roleblocker not by kittytacky,

and all of it just doesn't feel as likely to me as scorpious being a mafia

you don't need to maintain a fakeclaim as mafia, you have partners, i will try not to just ramble about theory so much today but buying a day, as many times as you can, is what you're aiming to do, pooky as mafia does that constantly and is very very good at it,

You’re refuting my argument with nonsense which makes me think I’m onto something. Of course I don’t know if Kitty is the Roleblocker that potentially is setting Scorpious up. That idea is so random.

Why is Scorpious Scum? Outside of the mechanical argument which really you’re not going to convince me about I don’t think. What about their behavior D1, in your estimation, points to them as Scum?

And you DO have to maintain a fake claim. If we execute Scum, and they flip Mailman, do you think Scorpious survives more than a day after that? Answer honestly. And I’m not Pooky, and I’m not rambling. I’m thinking critically. The first thing you’ve been arguing the minute you saw that Scorpious claimed to have sent you a message is that they were lying and Scum. You didn’t stop to consider the alternatives. That just screamed to me as being done in bad faith. Because Scorpious’ post, given how widely TR you have been angela, would have struck me as bizarre. Surely you would have wanted to lay out what it is that could be happening, and asking for other opinions. But you didn’t, and I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

tbh I really need to read.. maybe I should shut up till tomorrow, but seeing 3 pages over mailman??? really…

Are you reading?

[Andresvmb]

You know why this is important right? The options for executions yesterday if we’re being honest for a second were {geraintm, Scorpious, Save The Dragons, Not_Mafia}. Not_Mafia was ultimately executed and flipped Town, and there was some visible resistance to executing Save The Dragons. Scorpious is the easiest choice for mis-execution amongst the players that gathered multiple votes yesterday, if they’re actually Town.

I think angela’s conviction that Kitty is Town is also just completely bizarre. Maybe you could say that you think Kitty is Lean Town or something an explain why. But can anyone tell me why there’s so much conviction behind that read? I don’t get that at all. I certainly don’t agree with it.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

Argh. I’ll take a break.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Save The Dragons

[Andresvmb]

So there’s two options here. Either the Friendly Neighbor claim is coming from two Scum together (this is not a novel concept, and I have faxed it directly as Town before, but it was a risky claim that almost lead to the Team’s loss), or it’s a real claim and we have to accept Kitty is Town. Given how the game has played out, I’m inclined to believe Kitty is just Town. So I’ll lock that one. Note that the claim doesn’t speak to angela’s alignment, but it does eliminate the possibility entirely that they’re Ascetic. Which means, Scorpious is either lying or was blocked. Since there weren’t any claims prior to today, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that the Scum would have chosen to block Scorpious as a frame, but it does raise the probability (which I still think is not the most likely scenario) that Scorpious is lying about their role and message, and therefore Scum.

[Andresvmb]

^faced it directly*

[Andresvmb]

so lets examine the setup then.
Why would there be one confirmable message sender and one not?
Why would there be a town neighbor and a mafia mailman?

The second seems incredibly unbalanced to me..

This, however, is silly. Without having full knowledge of the roles, it’s very difficult to say whether the setup is balanced. The Scum could easily have other roles outside of a Scum mailman, and the Town could have other roles that complement what we’ve already seen. You’re speculating about lack of balance only to make yourself look better and that is suspicious to me.

[Andresvmb]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

[Andresvmb]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

He once claimed bulletproof cop. I wouldn't put it past him to make bizarre claims.

Besides, angela has little reason to lie about a mailman message if she is scum either! Because she will just get killed the next day is Scorp is town. And angela is way more townie to me than Scorp. I'm parked on Scorp still.

Yes, if I’m being honest, now that I feel maybe a bit better about angela again, I think Scorpious is the better execution of the two if we’re going down that path. Since Scorpious has made bizarre claims in the past, I can’t discount that this claim was totally made up. I think it’s idiotic and I would be furious if I was part of the Scum Team (I mean c’mon that is going to backfire at some point if that’s the case), but okay, should not be discounted.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t appreciated how Scorpious has approached the game so far, but I have a hard time seeing how they’re straight up lying about sending angela a message.

I re-read some of what Scorpious’ has been posting. I would argue they’re not all that likely to be Scum to be honest. Not the greatest player perhaps, but probably not Scum. I also really didn’t like how angela was speaking about Not_Mafia towards the end of the day yesterday, covertly trying to dissuade me from saving Not_Mafia. So I’m beginning to think I’m being fooled by angela, and the slot deserves some pressure.

@Scorpious, what did your message say?

"I am sending a message to you because you are obviously the catalyst to the game. I assure you my role is town. Side note between me and you.. The hammer was accidental" ~Scorp

It didn't look very accidental...

And yes, I’m with you here. The claim that the hammer was accidental doesn’t sit right with me. I had even clearly stated before that vote that I did not want to hammer Not_Mafia. So anyone paying some attention to the thread towards the end of the day (which I suspect Scorpious was doing since they acted on my appeal to move their vote) would have known that Not_Mafia was at E-1. I think that is objectively a bad sign.

[Andresvmb]

@Scorpious you’re misunderstanding the point. There are certain slots that will happily fake claim as both Town as Scum. There are also slots that will be more aggressive with their fake claims as Scum. For example, Koba or House both fake claim as Town to draw attention, or to disrupt the flow of the game when they perceive it to be in favor of Scum. They’re not in this game, but I would never take a claim from them at face value unless it was confirmed multiple which ways. Flavor Leaf and Koba are both also very aggressive with their fake claims. Sometimes to their detriment. But they will make claims that are way out there, and you have to be careful to assume that they just wouldn’t claim something crazy or seemingly sub-optimal, because they do it intentionally as part of their strategy (and they’re very good players as Scum).

If you have a history of doing something, then that plays against you. You could look at my entire history of games as Scum, and I play conservatively with claims. Why? Because I think I have rhetorical skills that generally speaking let others give me the benefit of the doubt, so I’ve never felt pressure to push my luck with claims. I just don’t get executed a whole lot (and almost never as Town). This doesn’t apply to you. So I can’t just assume that your mailman claim, which objectively is a bad claim for Scum, definitely means you’re Town. That’s the point. And since that’s the case, it’s far better to analyze your slot from your actions in the game. And if I’m being honest, I did strongly think you were Scum at various times for a reason.

[Andresvmb]

You’re still not understanding what I’m saying. If you have a tendency to do something as Scum, ignoring that possibility is dumb.

If you see that I self-vote a lot as Scum, but never as Town, and you’ve played with me a lot, and I’m self-voting in a game, what do you think that means on average? That’s a bit what some players are arguing. You can’t just ignore the past entirely because certain players do have tendencies. Is it repeating itself here? I don’t know, I’m not arguing your claim makes it so that you’re Scum. What I am saying is that the claim itself wouldn’t make it impossible for you to be Scum, despite how hard it is to maintain long-term.

I can guarantee that you will never see my fake claim mailman as Scum. I’m either a Scum mailman, or a Town mailman if I’m claiming it. But it’ll never be made up. We’re faced with the possibility that you could have made it up. Just because I wouldn’t do it doesn’t mean you wouldn’t. And your history helps judge that.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be honest, the fact that Nero Cain and Save The Dragons seem to be taking a complete back seat this game is raising some massive red flags for me.

[Andresvmb]

@Galron I think you’re Town. I read your ISO and I appreciate some of the points you’ve made even though you’ve ended up voting incorrectly at times. Can you come back and tell me if you would vote Scorpious here? Or do you think we should try and clear up whether the counter-wagon of STD is Scum? Because Not_Mafia and Pooky both felt STD could be Scum, and I certainly think that might hit.

[Andresvmb]

This is how I have the game right now:

Town
{Not_Mafia [Vanilla Town], PookyTheMagicalBear [Vanilla Town]}
Strong Lean Town
{KittyTacky [Friendly Neighbor]}
Lean Town
{MalcolmTucker, angela, Galron}
Slight Lean Town
{Rathe}
Neutral
{geraintm}
Slight Lean Scum
{Nero Cain, Save The Dragons, Scorpious [Mailman]}
Lean Scum
{ }
Scum
{ }
Uncertain
{Andante [Morning Tweet]}

I don’t think there’s anything AI from Andante, and I can’t read Morning Tweet from their activity D1.

[Andresvmb]

I still can’t read geraintm all that well but I wouldn’t execute there today. I think we need some resolution to either the end of day yesterday (STD), or to resolve Scorpious. That’s how I feel right now.

[Andresvmb]

So that’s where I will mostly end up.

I’ll let others contribute. I’m around if there’s any questions but I have a lot of work to tackle.

[Andresvmb]

I like dragons reads. Dragons seems towny!!!

ok gg. 1 read a day... read for today is done

What? You like that they think that geraintm should have solved the entire game D2? Or that they find me Town but annoying? And do you think their read of Galron is sensible? Galron actually has a decent amount of posts. Their read seems like a giant cop out. And they’re calling you Scum too you know? Like what?

[Andresvmb]

STD’s comment about trying to outguess the Mods is accurate but I’m unsure as to then how that connects with their thought that the information from the Friendly Neighbor makes them wary. Does clearly seem like conflicting statements.

[Andresvmb]

^regarding Scorpious.

I would almost guess that they’re hedging in case Scorpious gets flipped, but it also allows them to avoid voting there.

[Andresvmb]

STD’s pool is {geraintm, Andante, Rathe, Nero Cain, Malcolm Tucker}. Tell me that’s not wide as all hell.

[Andresvmb]

Oh and Galron.

They’ve basically argued {angela, I, Kitty (by claim), Scorpious} are Town. The only controversial take there is Scorpious, and basically they want anybody but Scorpious dead today.

@Andante, please clarify what you meant.

[Andresvmb]

what i meant on what?

Why do you like STD’s reads?

[Andresvmb]

They seem half-assed, and frankly just bad.

[Andresvmb]

I like dragons reads. Dragons seems towny!!!

ok gg. 1 read a day... read for today is done

You wrote this. If you haven’t read much, and don’t have much of a sense for what’s going on, why would you say you like STDs reads? That seems like a fair question yeah?

[Andresvmb]

Like when someone says they like someone else’s reads, it’s because they tend to agree with them. If you just like that they made a set of reads and aren’t judging the content… I think that’s just suspicious.

[Andresvmb]

ger isn't in my pool and i didn't say he should have solved the game by d2 i said it was annoying they can't seem to play d1 and didn't bring up anything juicy so far now that they "can play" or whatever they couldn't do d1

my pool is wide but some of those are just leans. i don't think that that's unreasonable considering you have 1 neutral, 1 uncertain, and 3 scum reads yourself.

Yeah geraintm is null, but I’m not actively SR’ing them right now. The Uncertain is for reasons I’ve explained. And I don’t think my SRs are unreasonable, even if they include you. You disagree on Scorpious which fine whatever I’m having a hard time nailing that down completely, but outside of Kitty due to their role, and angela, we really aren’t looking at the same game. So I was interested to figure out why Andante decided to praise you for posting a list of reads, but said nothing about mine (outside of hey I have my own Tier), when they haven’t read the game really. That just seems odd.

[Andresvmb]

And a wide pool is not Town positive.

I’m opening myself up for criticism if say Nero, STD, and Scorpious all flip Town. Like, clearly. And if Galron, Rathe, and angela have all fooled me, I will look like an idiot. STD gets to gloat meaningfully if Scorpious flips Town, but then gets to say regardless of what happens elsewhere for the most part, that they had them in the POE but are actively trying to sort. There’s a clear difference in potential blowback depending on how the game develops, and I’m not perceiving that as a positive.

[Andresvmb]

i wasn't saying you read are bad or anything i was pointing out you have a lot of {?} which i have a lot of {?} too

i tr kitty from play yesterday so just because i mentioned the doesn't mean that's the only thing i'm considering. we also agree nero is suspicious and potentially andante, and that ger is null, so i dunno why you're acting like my list is bad when we do have some common points

Kitty is almost surely mechanically cleared so I can’t read into that one.

I want more from Nero, and I don’t trust how you played the end of day yesterday. Yeah of course we have common points you can’t possibly disagree with everything I’m saying that would be absurd. But what I’m struggling the most isn’t the conclusions necessarily. Like why is Galron suspicious to you? Why are they not at all memorable? What do you make of their vote on angela that is still sitting out there?

I can be very wrong. Of course. I have played some really horrid games. But at the very least I want to understand your mindset and then make up my mind. Your reads list does seem half-assed to me and there’s not a whole lot to grab onto to criticize later if you turn out to be wrong and that’s what pinging me more than anything.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah of course we have common points you can’t possibly disagree with everything I’m saying that would be absurd.

my point is that you said Kitty and angela was our only common ground or at least implied this

im worried you're painting me in a bad light because you've decided i'm scum and are now misrepping me unintentionally

Like why is Galron suspicious to you? Why are they not at all memorable? What do you make of their vote on angela that is still sitting out there?

i don't think it's a great vote atm i think angela is town. what exactly is memorable about galron?

i don't think my reads are half-assed but i guess that's just your opinion man i don't really know what to argue to convince you that my reads are genuine

Let me rephrase. You’re not sufficiently expanding on your reasons for viewing the game in the way that you are. As far as I can tell, you haven’t much explained what’s driving your SR of Malcolm. I don’t know that I remember your reasons for SR’ing Rathe either. And UGH isn’t a reason.

Look I meant what I said - I don’t know that I have anything right. I’m trying desperately to find more than one player I don’t want to see executed outside of Kitty and angela at the moment. Some of my SR’s are giving me nothing, and Scorpious is acting like such a victim it’s impossible to definitively read there. The claim is confusing the crap out of me, and I still don’t understand why you would lie about that, because that’s honestly the only world where they’re Scum. Because a Town player didn’t stop from them from delivering a message otherwise, and we have almost definitive confirmation that angela isn’t Ascetic. But I don’t understand how you can conclude that their play points to Town unless you think the emotional content is too high. Which maybe? But I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

[Andresvmb]

coming for my arguments here sheesh

Like how is this a Town reaction as the alternative wagon nearing deadline? That’s what I truly don’t like about your posting end of day yesterday. If I’m coming for your arguments, why not either expand on them, ask what it is I don’t like about them, or be outraged at my accusation? This is so passive it reeks of Scum to me, because it makes me think you didn’t believe in anything you were saying.

[Andresvmb]

I can do that.

VOTE: Save The Dragons

VOTE: save the dragons

is there anything you want to engage me with

Now I certainly think that if you flip Town, then I need to flip my view of the game outside down and this is where I would start. But I’m trying to get more out of you so I change my mind with enough time if I need to do that.

[Andresvmb]

You know why this is important right? The options for executions yesterday if we’re being honest for a second were {geraintm, Scorpious, Save The Dragons, Not_Mafia}. Not_Mafia was ultimately executed and flipped Town, and there was some visible resistance to executing Save The Dragons. Scorpious is the easiest choice for mis-execution amongst the players that gathered multiple votes yesterday, if they’re actually Town.

I think angela’s conviction that Kitty is Town is also just completely bizarre. Maybe you could say that you think Kitty is Lean Town or something an explain why. But can anyone tell me why there’s so much conviction behind that read?

I don’t get that at all. I certainly don’t agree with it.

As has been said, this also doesn't chime with Angela in yesterday's turn who seemed very open-minded.

This could be MalcolmTucker trying to chip at angela’s status as the top TR, while letting me take the blame for it. Rathe at times reads like they could be actively trying to pocket Scorpious for example (like when they said they didn’t think Scorpious was lying), but they’re staying a bit out of the fray. Like it’s not impossible by any means. I just haven’t felt that MalcolmTucker sounds Scummy. Does that make sense? And Rathe seems to be largely agreeing with me but since I’m loud and could be wrong, that could be intentional. You’re naturally going to be more skeptical of these slots since they voted for you. So what are you seeing?

[Andresvmb]

@Kitty can you build a universe with Scorpious Scum that makes sense to you? Maybe I should ask that too.

[Andresvmb]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

unable to gain any formatting clarity regarding friendly neighbour message vs mailman message

so i either received a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

or a mailman message made to look like a friendly neighbour message

as far as i can tell

No this isn’t possible. Like there really isn’t any room for ambiguity here and this is nonsensical.

The message you receive when you’re the recipient of a message from a Friendly Neighbor comes from the Moderator, and it confirms Kitty as Town. If the moderator simply passed on a message, but it was clear in the message that it was not authored by the moderator, then it is nothing more than a message. This really shouldn’t be hard. One is a confirmation and assuming the game isn’t bastard (which I know it isn’t since this is the Normal queue), then you should know for a fact if Kitty is Town or not. You should easily be able to confirm. At the very least, you should be able to ask if the message that you received counts as Mod communication.

[Andresvmb]

Messages that come from the Moderator cannot be lies. So if the message is coming from the Moderator, then it is true. If the message is the result of a night action and contains content that makes it seem like Kitty is a Friendly Neighbor when they aren’t one, then that’s a Scum claim, and you should be able to tell.

[Andresvmb]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

unable to gain any formatting clarity regarding friendly neighbour message vs mailman message

so i either received a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

or a mailman message made to look like a friendly neighbour message

as far as i can tell

No this isn’t possible. Like there really isn’t any room for ambiguity here and this is nonsensical.

The message you receive when you’re the recipient of a message from a Friendly Neighbor comes from the Moderator, and it confirms Kitty as Town. If the moderator simply passed on a message, but it was clear in the message that it was not authored by the moderator, then it is nothing more than a message. This really shouldn’t be hard. One is a confirmation and assuming the game isn’t bastard (which I know it isn’t since this is the Normal queue), then you should know for a fact if Kitty is Town or not. You should easily be able to confirm. At the very least, you should be able to ask if the message that you received counts as Mod communication.

the message appears to be a friendly neighbour message, but i have no way of determining whether or not a mailman could have submitted that message in order to make me think that, and i am unable to gain further clarity

You’re asking the wrong question and I’m really beginning to doubt this whole thing.

How can you not gain further clarity? Let me ask the Mod one second.

[Andresvmb]

Like this sounds like bullshit. There are certain things that aren’t supposed to be confusing. If there’s a real Friendly Neighbor in the setup, you should absolutely be able to tell if the message you received was not a communication from a different player but came from the Mod. This isn’t supposed to trip you in that way. If the message is formatted a certain way, I still think the Moderator would start the communication with: “You received the following message from [blank]”. Otherwise, this just leads to an element that might be perceived as bastard, and I don’t think that’s ever the intention.

[Andresvmb]

Ask the Mod if the communication came directly from them. Like if they’re the author of the information.

[Andresvmb]

This is the sort of question that should get a definitive answer. That cannot be ambiguous.

[Andresvmb]

Like this sounds like bullshit. There are certain things that aren’t supposed to be confusing. If there’s a real Friendly Neighbor in the setup, you should absolutely be able to tell if the message you received was not a communication from a different player but came from the Mod. This isn’t supposed to trip you in that way. If the message is formatted a certain way, I still think the Moderator would start the communication with: “You received the following message from [blank]”. Otherwise, this just leads to an element that might be perceived as bastard, and I don’t think that’s ever the intention.

there is no indication of sender, simply a message that appears to be a friendly neighbour message

Okay then it is and I won’t speculate otherwise.

I checked the Role PM of a Scum Multi-Tasking Mailman in another game I played, and in the Scum PT it clearly states for the Mailman that their message will clearly indicate that the message came from a player and not the Moderator. Therefore, I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying.

[Andresvmb]

I asked the Moderator a question basically on your behalf but I couldn’t get an answer because the Mod doesn’t want to interfere in the game in any way and does not want to give the impression that a role exists within the game. I’m paraphrasing, but that means I won’t get direct confirmation.

[Andresvmb]

I asked the Moderator a question basically on your behalf but I couldn’t get an answer because the Mod doesn’t want to interfere in the game in any way and does not want to give the impression that a role exists within the game. I’m paraphrasing, but that means I won’t get direct confirmation.

you were also unable to gain formatting clarity

and can kinda shrug if we lose to mafia!kittytacky based on mailman message we have no way of separating from a friendly neighbour message

Hard disagree. A message from another player that is mailman will indicate that the message came from another player. If there’s no such component, and it looks like the format from your Role PM, then it’s a Mod communication and confirmation that Kitty is a Friendly Neighbor.

[Andresvmb]

The message from a mailman will say it came from another player. It’s never ambiguous.

@Scorpious, can you paraphrase what it says that the player receiving a message from you will be told when receiving your message?

[Andresvmb]

Yes I understand you received a message. But a message from a mailman indicates it came from another player. It’s an important difference. The point of the role is not to confuse you or open up the possibility that you would interpret a message from another player as a Moderator communication. Because that gives the Scum an advantage that’s not supposed to be there. They’re not supposed to be able to impersonate the Moderator. This is completely clear in my mind.

[Andresvmb]

Yes I understand you received a message. But a message from a mailman indicates it came from another player. It’s an important difference. The point of the role is not to confuse you or open up the possibility that you would interpret a message from another player as a Moderator communication. Because that gives the Scum an advantage that’s not supposed to be there. They’re not supposed to be able to impersonate the Moderator. This is completely clear in my mind.

but a friendly neighbour message also comes from another player

from the wiki:

"A Friendly Neighbor can target a player at Night to tell them that they are Town. The target will receive a message saying that the Friendly Neighbor is Town"

this appears to be the message i received

however, i have absolutely no way of knowing if it would look any different if a mailman sent me a message saying kittytacky was town

This is not how the role works.

You do receive a message. Kitty targets you as the recipient of the message. But the content of the message doesn’t come from Kitty. If it did, it wouldn’t count as confirmation that they’re Town (only the Mod can provide such confirmations). Like they can’t just type out a message that says “Kitty is Town”, send it to you as mailman, and for you not to clearly see that a player typed out the contents of that message. If the message came from a mailman, it’ll say: “You received the following message from [another player]: “[message]”. It will never just be a Mod confirmation with no source.

[Andresvmb]

What I really don’t want to see is that Kitty flips Scum in this game for some reason, that angela then gets to claim that they were confused by the way their communication was received. If Kitty flips Scum, absolutely execute angela no questions asked.

[Andresvmb]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

[Andresvmb]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

I think It's a waste of time,The only way this is fabricated is if they are both scum...

I don't see it..

If I point you to a game where the Scum played a gambit where a Scum player claimed to be a Friendly Neighbor, and roped in another member of their Team as the recipient of the message, will you stop this? I have directly said that I have seen this used a gambit between members of Scum. You are getting all upset that folks don’t believe your claim of mailman, but then when another claim is scrutinized, you’re choosing to accept it at face value. Why, I don’t know.