Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and /confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Atlas

for not putting my city on the map.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: MacavityLock

. Hmm, I feel like I've heard that name before... >.>

That rings vaguely familiar too. Maybe I'm thinking Kevin McCallister from Home Alone?

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

Vote: MacavityLock

. Hmm, I feel like I've heard that name before... >.>

That rings vaguely familiar

to me

too. Maybe I'm thinking Kevin McCallister from Home Alone?

Fixed.

[StrangerCoug]

Well so it is...

Happy birthday, mod!

[StrangerCoug]

Days I read commonly kick off from someone doing something scummy, or a player jumping on the smallest of actions. The former is misguided because it usually occurs when a newbie that doesn't know better stumbles, or the player just does this on purpose to start the day or set an obvious scum trap. As for the latter, I deeply despise it because the eager paranoid does not find those actions scummy at all, and will most likely generate a discussion based on false/exaggerated premises and opinions. The paranoid also unfairly earns suspicious for being "jumpy" and is labeled as scum trying to lynch a townie based on nothing, which is almost never the case (...).

How does everyone else feel about this?

Well, something has to happen to get the ball rolling, I can tell you that. For the first one, we cannot clear the person that did the scummy action just because the person is new (that's called the newbie card). As for somebody doing something on purpose, I've done that once before and nearly got my head ripped off for it, but it sure got reactions going, which was clearly what I intended to do with it.

Jumping on the smallest of actions is also known as jumping at shadows and warrants a vote on the person doing it.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Corvuus

Would you like to explain?

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Atlas
Vote: EvilGorillaz

for refusing to explain his vote on Corvuus.

[StrangerCoug]

Jumping on the smallest of actions is also known as jumping at shadows and warrants a vote on the person doing it.

I was referring to jumping on meaningless actions in the first couple of pages. If this is what you also meant, then I hugely disagree. Calling everything suspicious in the RVS is more of a null-tell to me, because I don't see mafia gaining anything from it (unless the town is stupid enough to lynch based on such a weak case.) #42 is a clear example of such... I don't see EvilGorrilaz any more likely to be mafia with his vote. Clearly it's not pro-town to vote without explained reason, but I don't see him pushing any malicious agendas with it.

I couldn't tell whether Evilgorillaz's vote was random or not. There are scummier actions than voting without an explanation, yes, even than refusing to explain your vote. I am also fully aware that Evilgorillaz may or may not be today's lynch. We do not have just one Mafia member. In my experience, three is the most common in a mini, though I've also seen and heard of two (not on their own, however—some of those two-player teams had traitors working for them, some were playing against another two-player Mafia team).

Where did I say or imply anything along the lines of calling everything in random voting suspicious?

[StrangerCoug]

Just wondering; are post restrictions possible in this Mini?

It's a normal, so most likely no.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote, Vote: Evilgorrilaz

I found a scum! All aboard!

Going after an easy target, now aren't you?

Unvote: Evilgorillaz
Vote: Cephrir

for mindless bandwagoning.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote, Vote: Evilgorrilaz

I found a scum! All aboard!

Reasoning please!

Later!

Now!

[StrangerCoug]

OK, this is getting cheap. Both Evilgorrilaz and Cephrir are acting scummy at this moment.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry for not being here for a while.
Are we past random voting?

I honestly wish we were. Of my three votes in this game so far, two have been serious. I wish everybody would wake up, snap into reality, and look at Evilgorillaz and Cephrir.

[StrangerCoug]

Did I say something wrong?

Just to get rid of the quote pyramid...

I really don't think so given I voted Cephrir for mindlessly bandwagoning and the same post that contains my vote accuses Cephrir of going after an easy target, but I'm not the one being asked the question. I'm

TRYING

to get the town on the right track, but almost everyone is going off on a tangent. We accomplish nothing in doing so.

[StrangerCoug]

So somehow or other, accord to Primate, I am a convenience store robber. And this is relevant to a game of Mafia because?

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

So somehow or other, accord

ing

to Primate, I am a convenience store robber.

Fixed.

[StrangerCoug]

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

[StrangerCoug]

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

o_O

FoS: StrangerCoug

Bad vibes.

One of the people I was talking about there was you.

[StrangerCoug]

I meant to point out the bandwagoning only and got a little overambitious.

Be very careful with that. That doesn't usually bode well.

[StrangerCoug]

One of the people I was talking about there was you.

Pointing out the obvious is scumhunting?

I was referring to your #37 and #39, which were the reasons for my first serious vote. The only two things your next post, #59, do are call MiteyMouse a copycat and vote him, though I do see somewhat of a case on him. I don't know what you're referencing.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

[StrangerCoug]

Be careful, MiteyMouse—as well as that works, there are no universal rules to scumhunting.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: The wireless adapter on my computer is acting funny at the moment, so if I go too long without a post, that's why. I do have access to other computers, however, so I won't consider myself V/LA.

Noted.

[StrangerCoug]

@Primate voters: even if Primate is faking a PR, I don't think it's scummy. Antitown, perhaps, but not scummy. And I'm far from positive that he's making it up anyway.

I don't associate post restrictions with mini normals, nor do I think the pictures in and of themselves warrant a vote. If Primate is allowed to speak in words, I'd rather he do so, but his actions are not per se scummy.

Now, if he can't post words but he's allowed to post rebuses, then I can see him communicating.

[StrangerCoug]

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

[StrangerCoug]

Personally, I think that Primate's being pretty clear with his posts. Sure, he's having some fun, and not being as informative as he could be, but I'm pretty well following what he's saying.

Posts #127 and #128 make quite a bit of sense to me, so I think I've figured him out.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I now believe that the wireless adapter problem is fixed.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry I've been off for too long.
Are we past Random Voting, or are we working with tangible evidence?

We're past it now. A lot of the current cases have something or other to do with Primate.

[StrangerCoug]

Your response doesn't answer my third question, Corvuus. You wrote this:

But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

I wrote this in response:

Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

I'll allow whether voting in and of itself is contributing to be debated (I don't think so), but for you to make an untrue statement and then use that statement to push a utility lynch is scummy.

i am voting him to pressure him to actually say something or unvote/vote. I didn't say he was scum but he is being stubborn, not helping and what is wrong with voting for someone who isn't scumhunting or contributing?

I have no problem with voting someone who isn't scumhunting, and pressure voting someone who isn't contributing is not scummy in my book. What is wrong, however, is that if this is a post restriction of his as we believe, then voting him to get him to speak in words is useless.

sorry, i don't consider /confirm,
vote: *blank*
in order to make it 2>1.

Are you actually reading the thread, or are you skimming? You are pressure voting Primate to get him to do something he either most likely can't do or already did. The "vote: *blank*" is actually a vote on me—in post #76, the line breaks after the word "vote" on a 1024×768 monitor.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: The "vote: *blank*" was actually on Evilgorillaz, not me. I am the person he's currently voting, though.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

[StrangerCoug]

SC, why don't you tell us what you think of who is your top two picks for being the most scummy.

It was you and Cephrir for the Primate case (you were pushing a utility lynch, Cephrir was mindlessly bandwagoning), but it's now Zeppo007 and Cephrir. This post is setting me off:

I've got a question for Primate. You seem pretty set on StrangerCoug being guilty do you have any extra info as part of Role that would give you this info? If not can you show us some quotes that have given you this high suspicion of Coug?

You are aware that this is a day start and, even if he had an investigative role, he really wouldn't know yet, right, Zeppo007? Why are you asking him questions about his role?

Unvote: Corvuus
Vote: Zeppo007

Not much has changed in terms of Cephrir, and I have seen him play more pro-town than hesitating to explain his votes.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

The fact that very few people seemed to care to scumhunt yet. I'm looking at Primate right now.

Unvote: Cephrir

You say you care about scumhunting here, but I don't see you trying to scumhunt or do anything contributing at all. You also say you are looking at Primate but you never say why and you start defending him next as well.

I'm simply against pushing a utility lynch. Town may be "useless", but lynching a useless townie is still a mislynch. I can see how scum might use them to their advantage. I'm also against lazy town, and Huntress has not voiced any objections to his pointing pictures except one where he was insulting you.

I don't think it helps us to speculate on setup and such until after we get a few dead bodies to see what role/flavor there really is. Otherwise it is a mod WIFOM isn't it?

I agree with you here. We have to wait until Night 1 to get a idea of how many groups we're dealing with.

Assuming we have no doctors or roleblockers:
One person dies Night 1 = just the one Mafia
Two people die Night 1 = Mafia/Mafia, Mafia/SK, or Mafia/Vig
Three people die Night 1 = Most likely Mafia/SK/Vig, though Mafia/Mafia/Vig isn't too far-fetched an idea. Mafia/Mafia/SK is unlikely in a mini normal.

Simply speaking, we don't know what groups we're dealing with simply because we're all alive. We shouldn't be outguessing the mod, and anybody already trying to do so on page four should be viewed as suspicious for knowing more about the setup than the town should.

I agree with what Atlas is saying as well.

I had just said let's not speculate about game setup since it is not helpful and then you... speculated on game setup. You also keep agreeing with people and try to 'coast' or skim by. This is not very good playing either.

Even if I agree with people, I still have my suspects. My vote's out.

I didn't say Primate's voluntary PR is scummy, I said it was anti-town.

i.e. it doesn't give us info or help the town overall.

I can't get a read on a 'picture' in order to determine what he is thinking/saying, etc. and how can he contribute to a real discussion with only pictures/smilies?

I mean, for all of you I could do a PBPA at some point but for him, if I click on his name now it is a bunch of pictures or a dancing smiling thing. He doesn't even have a random vote! The only word he has spoken is /confirm at the beginning!

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

So yeah, I don't think he is scum; but until he types a word/vote I am voting for him (or if someone scummier appears).

Corvuus

I don't get this post. One, Primate is voting, and the mod has counted his vote on me when he typed it in words. Two, if you think Primate is merely anti-town instead of scummy, then why are you voting him? Three, why are you viewing Primate as a liability to the town that needs to be disposed of?

Vote: Corvuus

Your questions here are ... frankly... stupid and out of place. You later state that voting to create pressure is legitimate but ask me why I am voting for him if I think he is anti-town. Obviously because I want him to stop being anti-town and post something helpful (which he did).

OK, I understand that much.

This fits as both point out the other (since if one of them gets lynched, the other gets semi-cleared) and also why SC flip flops and goes from suspecting Primate to completely unsuspecting him and then defending his "PR" and other actions.

Quote where I suspect Primate. (My saying "I'm looking at him", "I don't know what to make of him", "his post interest me for some reason", or anything along the lines of those three don't count, by the way. The first one simply means I'm looking at someone's case to see if it makes sense; I don't use the other two as an indication that I have a firm belief that a player is scum.)

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Primate hasn't said anything along the lines of why exactly I'm scummy, but I'm sure he has them.

I thought of your playing style and how you "like to point things out which are easy and wrong" in order to make it seem like you are contributing and that is also a bad style. It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

I have attacked them.

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

I've cleared you because I feel you have explained yourself adequately. I don't have to approve of a Primate lynch to think you are town.

Why would you keep voting for people and then unvoting them? If you have a position or feeling about something then stick with it! Instead, you come off as afraid of gaining attention, being seen as bandwagoning, etc. and just willing to coast and point out others doing things for them to get lynched instead of you.

So I'm somehow supposed to "lock" my vote and ignore other people's defenses. Right.

I've had my vote on you for awhile; in fact, I think I've had it on you the longest for the Primate case. I remember voting four people other than my random vote: Evilgorillaz, Cephrir, you, and Zeppo007, and I believe in that order. Three Mafia is standard in a mini, so I know all four of you can't be, but I fail to see where I'm being wishy-washy with my vote.

I think SC you should have also gone after Primate for marking you as Scum (100% red) instead of just attacking someone else asking why Primate was marking as you scum.

Player X voting player Y for scummy action Z, whatever that might be ≠ player X being scum necessarily. For player Y to propose otherwise is OMGUS. Granted, I should have probed Primate for reasoning, but I cannot attack Primate solely because he voted me.

Instead you ignore it, which a normal townie wouldn't do since it is basically FoS or voting you, and you also state that you understand all of his pictures and such so you had to understand the ven diagram so I don't see why you aren't against Primate at all but instead going after others.

There is no need for me to panic over one or two votes. You have put me at L-4, which is not really a dangerous position in a mini, but being at L-4 does mean that you had best be explaining what you did, and I am doing so right now.

[StrangerCoug]

Taking Corvuus's quotes out of mine.

If Cephrir is scummy to you then build a case on him and go for it. It isn't a issue of quality or quantity. It is an issue of you claiming you want to scumhunt, do stuff, etc. and then not actually doing it.

I think it's already clear that I don't like his bandwagoning and hesitation to give his vote reasons.

This is not a real answer and doesn't explain anything. You can say *now* that you are against a utility lynch but that isn't what you said back then.

When did I say that I approve of a utility lynch?

Can you elaborate on this? State what you understand, what you think, why, etc.

You said that you were voting Primate for pressure. He responded, you thus unvoted. I'm fine with pressure votes, which is why I'm dropping that as part of my case on you.

Sadly, it does count.

In a PBPA of you, post #14, you state: "i'm trying to get the town back on track" i.e. scum hunting.

Primate posts his pictures and votes for you. You respond with post #15 on PBPA where you ask if Primate thinks you are a convenience store robber (and he is voting for you). So he is 'scum hunting' in a sense with his PR.

I asked how my being a convenience store robber is relevant, not why he thinks so.

In post #17, You state that you are looking at Primate since people aren't scum hunting.

When he HAS voted for you and drawn a picture of you as a 'convenience store robber".

So that's where.

Why didn't you respond to this or care? He basically says you are scum, and then you shrug it off.

I responded with the convenience store robber question, though it is a valid point that I haven't really tackled it any further.

You go on to state that you understand his pictures, his pictures are fine, leave him alone, (even though he did vote for you and he does have you marked as 100% scum) so why aren't my points valid?

I'll be hanged if I know, considering that I understand your case on him now.

Note: you can't say because he has no evidence, etc. since then that proves my point about his posts 'not contributing' in terms of his thinking/analysis, etc. which you state that you don't believe and you understand his posts fine.

I am not saying Primate has no evidence of my being scum.

Why the inconsistency? If you get his posts, he sees you as scum, then why not bash his PR or his logic or his reasoning? Instead, you just 'ignore' him and move on to other players.

So my point is Valid since you "do mention" Primate (so we can't accuse you later of completely ignoring him) but you pretty much do give him a jail out of free card in terms of his actions, etc.

I see it worthless to attack a post restriction. I agree that his logic and reason, however, are lacking.

What does this statement mean? You are sure he has them? Then why not ask him to elaborate? Why not ask him to prove his point with his PR or with words, etc. Instead you just let him call you scum, let him vote for you and then say, "I don't know, he has reasons... but yeah, I understand all of his picture posts and Corvuus' going after his PR (which is not voluntary) doesn't make sense".

It'd be nice if his reasons were known, yes.

What you did doesn't make sense. You could say, "I didn't think about it, or I didn't think of that" but seriously, you have pointed out 'everything' else that is 'wrong' with everyone else, I don't see why you would ignore Primate who IS voting you and does have picture of you being scum. I wouldn't have accused you of OMGUS if you asked for a better explanation , etc. or thought it was weird that Primate is pointing you out. Instead, you pretty much ignore it and go after ... Zeppo i think as "#1 or #2" on your list for asking Primate questions when really you should be asking Primate questions instead.

I have been ignoring Primate for too long.

How does that make sense? You go after Zeppo for asking why Primate thinks you are scum but you don't go after Primate for thinking you are scum?

I am not going after Zeppo007 for asking Primate why he thinks I am scum, and he is as right as I should be to do so. I am, however, going after Zeppo007 for rolefishing.

I don't get the above statement. You need to elaborate and state 100% whether you think Primate's PR is voluntary or real.

I have reason to believe that it is real.

That isn't my point. I would just ask you this. Primate thinks you are scum. What is your defense and what do you say to Primate?

I'd still like an explanation on how exactly he concluded that I am scum. When I asked how the convenience store robber is relevant, he referenced the first post.

This is an error in logic. Primate isn't voting you for a specific scummy action Z. in fact, he never stated why he is voting for you or why he thinks you are scum which is the entire problem with Picture PR. I get that he thinks you are scum SC but why, how, etc. I don't know.

Now, if Player P(rimate) votes for Player SC for "no reason" as being 100% scum, then Player SC is PERFECTLY fine in saying that it is scummy for Player P to do so. It is like Cephrir voting without giving his reasons which you are QUICK to jump on... but when Primate did the same to you, you ignored him.

No one would have said that it was OMGUS for you to ask for a explanation so that you could actually respond and refute Primate's response.

So YES, you should (and from your actions against other players) would have gone after Primate for solely voting you for no "clearly" stated reason. if you can state Primate's reasons for voting for you here, then state them and refute them.

OK, I was being too conservative for my own good.
_____________________________________________________________

OK, now on to Primate, since it's been established that I've been ignoring him for too long:

• Why do you think I am scum?
  
• Who else do you think is scum and why?
  
• What do you think of Corvuus's case on me?
  
• What's your opinion of Zeppo007?

[StrangerCoug]

I did find it kind of odd SC didn't try to defend himself from Primate's accusations. But I don't know if that's a sign of a passive scum or a passive townie.

What do you mean "accusations"? Hasn't it been established that Primate voted me without a reason?

[StrangerCoug]

What do you mean "accusations"? Hasn't it been established that Primate voted me without a reason?

Primate is accusing you of being scum; thus it is an accusation.

Yes, but note that I quoted the plural. "Accusation" is singular.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll mind my own business with the PR discussion bit.

Oh, sorry about that. Though technically Primate accused you twice; once as a convenience store robber and the other in his colorful diagram.

OK, I understand you here. It's established that he thinks I'm scum. Now where on planet Earth is his evidence!?

[StrangerCoug]

MiteyMouse, you, and SC are my top targets right now.

What is your case on MiteyMouse?

[StrangerCoug]

Don't even send Primate a prod, just replace him. Come on mod, don't be antitown. Replace him even if he keeps posting.

You want Primate gone that bad!? How is this request pro-town?

[StrangerCoug]

Ooh boy. LlamaFluff's a good player. Welcome.

[StrangerCoug]

- First I really want to see what primate (or his replacement if he doesn't pick up his prod) will post next.

It'd be nice if he came back. He's made only two posts on site since his last post, one eight hours after his last post here and the other on the 12th. This appears to be his only game, as well.

- Scondly I'm seeing Corvuus's actions as more over-exuberant town than scummy at this point.

That's what I'm leaning towards as well, and I can see what his argument is.

- Thirdly I don't like Cephrir's post about just replacing primate because he is anti-town. If he doesn't pick up his prod then he should be replaced.

Quoted for truth.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm beginning to think that people are suspicious of me because they've taken everything I've done this game completely seriously. Don't.

Then stop making fluff posts.

[StrangerCoug]

Guys, didn't Primate basically say "I'm avoiding work (posting words) because I'm stubborn" in #127? Doesn't that basically confirm he's making the PR up? Or am I totally misinterpreting his pictures?

I interpreted those specific pictures as an attack on Corvuus.

[StrangerCoug]

For the 10,000th time, I'm not SG!

I see what LlamaFluff is talking about with page three, especially given my own "this is getting cheap" post there.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't consider my vote was immediately after Macivity's vote....we will have to disagree on that one.

Does a vote have to come right after someone else's vote to be OMGUS?

No, but usually a player X guilty of OMGUS against player Y votes after the latter.

[StrangerCoug]

If player X commits OMGUS against player Y, he or she generally votes after player Y. I used "the latter" to mean player Y as opposed to player X.

[StrangerCoug]

A few of you (including Corvus) are looking for buddies already. I call such evidence conspiracy theory and I don't like it. It leads to confirmation bias, false conclusions, and mislynches.

That (and thanks a lot for the insight—it's very useful) and it simply makes no sense to me.

[StrangerCoug]

I like both Corv and Macavity as Town players at this time and see them as the least suspicious everyone else is pretty much neutral to me at this time.

Why Corvuus and MacavityLock as town?

[StrangerCoug]

Any comments on Primate/Ythill or anything substantial you wish to contribute?

I'm surprised that the post restriction was voluntary, and Ythill's been more pro-town than Primate was.

In particular, I would like to hear your top 3 list and what do you think of Zeppo?

Zeppo007 is actually still my #1 suspect and current vote for the rolefishing thing already discussed, and I believe Macavity's #318.

Cephrir is my #2 for reasons already stated, mainly his withholding his reason for voting Evilgorillaz and finally answering by saying he was trying to get us out of the random voting stage (which I don't buy—there are more pro-town ways to go about it).

Apothecary's misrepresenting Cephrir (L-3 vote ≠ quicklynch vote) and his using my actions to make MiteyMouse suspicious make him my #3.

SC... isn't really responding or defending himself. I don't really get why not either. Maybe it is just mindgames for me to assume so, but if SC defended himself fairly decently and actually did some scumhunting then I could see him getting out of being lynched and if he was town, then he would attempt to do so... instead he is just kind of fluffing around and waiting for himself to die. Either non-helpful townie or scum resigned to his fate.... either way, I figure he would say or do something unless him saying more could be harmful to his 'team'.

If I don't have anything new to add, I generally don't post. I'm not resigning to my fate; people are already saying what I wanted to say.

[StrangerCoug]

What's the sad face for?

[StrangerCoug]

Earlier you said "I don't associate post restrictions with mini normals." Can you explain this?

SC, that was directed at you.

Sorry. Missed it.

Post restrictions are rare if even existent in mini normals, which is why I said that. For awhile, I bought the exception, and I was surprised to see Ythill posting normally when he replaced in. I don't remember saying that Primate had the restriction for sure; only that I wasn't convinced otherwise.

[StrangerCoug]

More votes for Atlas please.

No. I don't buy his case, and asking for more votes on somebody is tantamount to rushing the day, which is scummy.

Unvote: Zeppo007
Vote: Ythill

[StrangerCoug]

I buy Zeppo007's defense as to what I thought was rolefishing. You said not too long ago that my case on him was weak and you explained it away as sarcasm, remember?

While Ythill's asking us to vote for somebody whose case I think is nonsense does factor into my vote, I simply do not like being rushed, and longer days help the town. Yes, I know it's been about 3½ weeks, but at this stage of the game it's normal and I'm not in a hurry for someone to die.

[StrangerCoug]

Cougar, your vote significantly loses its psychological effectiveness and credibility when you change it every time someone does something scummy.

I wasn't going anywhere with the Zeppo007 vote, which is why I switched.

[StrangerCoug]

Since Ythill actually presented a decent case on Atlas I believe, I will

unvote Ythill

and demote him to a

minor FoS: Ythill

(I still don't like the fact that he's trying to rush us). I want other people to give their input before I do anything else, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Doctor here.

[StrangerCoug]

Wait, for people claiming Doctor, is there actually a doctor role to claim?
I'm confused as at the beginning, it doesn't specifically if there are any special roles in this game.

Ythill has it covered, but in a closed setup, the only roles you know in advance are your own and any others the mod tells you about in your role PM. This is something that is best taken to Mafia Discussion, however.

[StrangerCoug]

Did you try to 'breadcrumb' or let anyone know you are a doc in your posts?

No.

Would you play a doc role differently than a normal townie role?

No.

What do you wish you had done differently in this game before Primate replaced.

I wish I questioned Primate more in an attempt to get more information out of him.

[StrangerCoug]

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

[StrangerCoug]

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

[StrangerCoug]

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused here. "Minor anymore"?

I already said Zeppo007's role bit has been explained, and I still don't like Ythill's rushing for an Atlas lynch.

(I missed the part about the pronunciation of Ythill's name, as if it's relevant. I've always pronounced the Y and the T individually in my head, e.g. "why-tee-hill".)

[StrangerCoug]

I simply offered an alternate viewpoint. I don't see why this is arousing this much angst and suspicion. If we all jumped on someone when they offered an alternate view, we'd never get past day 1. I just passed a comment that may or may not have shown others that there isn't a rigid set of scumtells. I thought that was part of the game, to suggest things.

Yeah, but suggesting that a vanilla is fakeclaiming to shield from his or her lynch is a good way to bankrupt your credibility.

[StrangerCoug]

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

[StrangerCoug]

What exactly don't you get?

[StrangerCoug]

Fixing Corvuus's quotes so it's nested correctly:

It just seems like you are enjoying your 'get out of jail free' card entirely too much and your statements are just... bad.

----------

Alright then. I don't believe SC's claim. But I don't believe he's a scum either, but a townie hoping that the claim will shield him from the lynch.

WHAT? This is utter lose. What benefit would vanilla (or other town power) have to gain by avoiding a lynch by claiming doc? It would risk a doc counter-claim (bad for town), an auto-town lynch (aka Lynch all Liars, bad for town), and any number of consequences that would be antithetical to a townie's win condition.

FoS: Apoth

. I'm not excited to have anybody who thinks like this in a game. I'm not sure if a townie would think like this at all, though maybe that comes back to his semi-newb status. Apoth, if you're town, please don't go fake-claiming power to avoid a lynch. That's really bad mojo.

Quoted for truth, and the only situation I can think of where town would fakeclaim is Kokusho's gambit, which involves neither a doc nor a doc claim.

Vote: Apothecary

Here, you just hop on and agree with another player, but I don't think you really get what is going on and being said, or that you are even thinking about it at all just as long as it "isn't you".

MacavityLock and I both agree that it is scummy. He got a chance to respond to the post before I did, and ML had already said what I was going to. My original input here was mentioning Kokusho's Gambit. I understand that my post implies that I'm not pulling the gambit off, but it's simply because I'm not. It's mentioned because, as I said, the gambit is the only situation I could think of where a town-aligned player would fake a claim.

For those unfamiliar with it, in Kokusho's Gambit a cop gets a guilty result on a Mafia, fakeclaims tracker with a result of that Mafia targeting a dead player, and drives that player to claim. After the Mafia claims, he admits being cop with a guilty. Very effective gambit, too.

Am I a cop? No.
Did I claim tracker? No.
Does Kokusho's gambit therefore apply? No.
Can I think of anytime else town would fakeclaim? No.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

Perhaps this is why Apoth got so confused. You are voting him for proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor. If so, then I have to say that is indeed lame. Proposing the idea of vanilla faking doctor isn't scummy to me, it is that he has you as scum before your claim, and then all of a sudden he says you are vanilla faking a claim.

It looks like you are bandwagoning without even understanding what is going on.

Tell me how it's pro-town for vanilla to fake any power role let alone a doctor

AND

how someone in his right mind who's been here 6½ months with more than twenty completed games would do that as vanilla and I'll dismiss this part of Apothecary's case.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?

Alright then. I personally believe he was just shielding himself from the pressure and decided that it was in his best interests to avoid an immediate lynch. Of course, that is also a defense for scum players, and now I see how that was a bit stupid to suggest that. I apologize, if that's what you want.

OK, but apologies don't change anything. Sorry.

what does your post here add or change to anything? I want to lynch you now just for this statement alone practically.

I understand but do not buy his defense.

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.

I have no freaking idea except that you don't know what is going on and are just posting words and trying to sound like you are keeping up.

I do indeed know what's going on, and I am reading this game.

I don't see you and Apoth being scumbuddies tho so the entire situation seems fairly... weird.

Any specific reasoning for this?

[StrangerCoug]

I'll address Corvuus's most recent post when I get home. Didn't pay enough attention to my watch, and now I'm late for class.

[StrangerCoug]

This is so utter lose. Kokusho's gambit (or whatever) has nothing to do with this. You bringing it up when it doesn't relate and then knocking it down is utterly pointless and I don't count crap as contributing originality.

Kokusho's gambit was presented as the only pro-town fakeclaim I could think of. Since it does not apply, of course I brought it up so I could knock it down, but it was part of my case against him.

The rest of this part of my post is on you than Apothecary, but it's more "you should have told me earlier" than scummy. Here goes:

I could only think of pro-town fakeclaiming as town pulling Kokusho's gambit.
The only way someone can think of ≠ the only way period.
Therefore, pro-town fakeclaiming ≠ town pulling Kokusho's gambit per se.
Furthermore, I was not aware of any pro-town reasons to fakeclaim other than Kokusho.

You should have specifically brought up your explanation of why it would be pro-town for town to fakeclaim doc below the moment you saw me vote Apothecary for the same.

It also presents a false dilemma in that YOU think that a vanilla townie would never fake claim doc in order to save himself.

See above.

If you claimed Vanilla, we would almost 80% guaranteed be lynching you right now. The only way to prevent your lynch today is to claim a power role, i.e. doc, regardless of whether you are town, scum or real doc.

I understand that. I also understand that town would much rather be nightkilled than lynched, but at the same time they should not be worrying about self-preservation.

I could craft a sane hypothetical with a sane townie claiming doc when there was a real doc in the game and it 'working'.

The hypothetical is completely based on whether the real doc *knows* he shouldn't counterclaim, and he should know based on it being D1.

The townie fake claiming would survive an extra day but probably get NK'ed later that night since mafia would take his claim at face-value. Go town.

If it is scum fake claiming and they survived, then suspicion will come back later, and if the real doc died then they will almost certainly be gg'ed right there. It could be the scum fake claiming to also net the doc with his death, etc.

See above.

Either way, a D1 doc claim is the weakest, laziest claim but there is no reason to lynch you now since you will 100% die before the end of the game.

What other option do I have as a doc at L-1, claiming something else? To sit there or claim vanilla is tantamount to suicide. The only other role I can think of claiming is jailkeeper, and for that to work the doctor would have to be paranoid. You rarely know your sanity if you're starting on Day 1, and even in night starts, figuring out you're paranoid takes awhile.

It is D1. There is no need for a counterclaim by real doc. Whether you are town, doc or scum, you will not die this day but you will die eventually. If you were cc'ed then you would and real doc would both die and that would be fairly pointless.

If you know a townie knows this and think others know it (or can insinutate it before real doc counterclaims) then your 'get out of jail free card' doc claim is just postponing your execution which may be good for town.

OK, point understood and case dismissed.

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Apothecary proposed the idea of vanilla faking doctor, and my suspicions of Ythill and Zeppo007 are minor anymore.

as above, lame. you really aren't trying.

OK, which of the following three do you find scummiest?
A.) Suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim
B.) Rushing the game
C.) Asking about someone's role

Or, by some chance, are all of the above equally scummy to you, even if none of the above are scummy?
[/quote]

see, you seriously aren't even trying since your above suggestions are silly.

First of all, suggesting that vanilla would fakeclaim in itself isn't scummy. How apoth said it is. I would point out that someone else other than Apoth said the equivalent that you may be vanilla fake claiming, but then again, i don't expect you to have read or seen that.[/quote]
Rather than keeping to yourself (which is scummy) hoping that I die, why don't you bring it up?

Second of all, what is your definition of rushing the game?

Asking people to mindlessly bandwagon someone.

Just because we vote and get someone near L-1, L-2 doesn't mean we *want* the day to end with quicklynch. We can just get information out of it and move on. If the vote actually ended with a lynch on the first person to get to L-1 in the very few pages, then it is suspicious and rushing. If the vote gets to L-1, L-2 and pressure, discussion, etc. and the day moves on then it is fine.

Ythill already shot down my rushing argument against him by saying he was the only vote on Atlas, but given the situations you talk about here I'm having a hard time why you don't think rushing is scummy, especially when you mention otherwise.

Third, you say asking about someone's role. Asking for a role without any reason at all is horrible. soft claiming, etc. is horrible. Asking you to claim at L-1 and discussing it is a null-tell to me since "everyone" does it.

What I was trying to get at has nothing to do with my being asked to claim. That was supposed to a reference to Zeppo007 asking about Primate's role. You imply here that his doing so is horrible, so why are you attacking it being scummy as nonsense?

Ha! I'm bankrupting my credibility! Most of us have done that already in this game! Right now you lot are just grasping at straws for quicklynches! That's pretty self destructive in itself.

Are the straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?

What does the above, "straw men the main reason we've bankrupted our own credibility if that's how we're going to look at it?" really mean?

I am trying to probe exactly what made Apothecary make that statement. I'm not attacking this specific post; I just want to know what he's thinking.

That is what you think your question is doing? getting to know what he's thinking by asking about straw men?

Exactly; more specifically, if he thinks we're guilty of straw man arguments. I won't drop it at that; it's a statement I still plan on working with after he answers what I asked.

[StrangerCoug]

When I made that statement about grasping straws, I was saying that you're going for an easy way out of today. I wasn't making any reference to, ah, "Strawmen". I was merely being a little bit defiant and angry. I think if you breathe to much into that SC, then I think that's a sign of desperation, trying to keep me as the prime suspect.

But you used the term "you lot" instead of just the word "you", so you said that we as a group, and not I alone, are grasping at straws. In addition, as far as I am aware, grasping at straws = straw man (but again, someone needs to correct me if I am wrong).

[StrangerCoug]

You know, instead of making ad hominem attacks, maybe you should reread the last senence of #429 closely and explain where I'm wrong.

[StrangerCoug]

So I'm wrong. Shoot me.

[StrangerCoug]

SC-Corvuus makes me want to strangle

someone

SC.

Fixed.

FoS: Cephrir

for misrepresenting MacavityLock. MacavityLock gave a legitimate reason why he would want to "strangle" Corvuus too (namely, Corvuus is still pressuring me after my claim—he has the right to think that doing so is useless, and he apparently is exercising it). A Mafia game is not a good place for the concept of "fixing" other people's quotes to make them say what you want.

[StrangerCoug]

Bolding mine to clarify what I'm addressing:

Way to take me too seriously

and blow it way out of proportion.

Here's something to keep in mind: Regardless of alignment (or situation, Mafia or not), I will not necessarily get something that requires a sense of humor. You've already given your opinion; MacavityLock was giving his.

[StrangerCoug]

I also feel the rumblings of a Jazzmyn wagon deep in my stomach.

We've agreed that Zeppo007 was not rolefishing; why are you worried about Jazzmyn being bandwagoned?

[StrangerCoug]

When you make a case you dont defend the person or add filler, that just makes the case weaker so it wasnt for either of those reasons.

How do you know what I do? You know how you play the game. I make my cases the way I do to

help me determine

if someone is scum, not to craft an airtight argument that neither scum nor town would prevail against.

As for the rest of the case, look how often you used "seem"... my favorite one was where you were trying to accuse me of preparing to do something that hasn't been done by anyone, because I "seem" like I'm

going to

do it. Seeming is made up of (my) action and (your) projection, and your PoV

seems

to be skewed.

It seems like the main reasoning was the stance on SCs claim (which you claimed wasnt a reason before), and that his suspicions were ingenuous.

There's the "s" word again. So, when I say something is

just plain wrong

, as opposed to disingenuous, wouldn't most people think of those two things as opposites. Thing A is a lie, thing B is

just

wrong.

I never paid attention to it in his post, but now that you bring it up, I can see how the word "seem" is being abused. There's a big difference, mentally and otherwise, between "he

seems

to be doing it" and "he

IS

doing it". Your bringing it up does leave a black mark on LlamaFluff, but it on its own doesn't make him overly scummy to me.

[StrangerCoug]

By the way, where are Elmo, MM and Atlas? I dont remember too much from those three lately.

Elmo posted twice yesterday, but thanks for reminding us about the other two. Atlas hasn't posted since Tuesday, MiteyMouse not since Monday.

Mod: Please prod Atlas and MiteyMouse.

[StrangerCoug]

Now, I currently believe he is scum due to his attitude towards me and saying claiming "vanilla townie is suicide". This does seem a little scummy, as it made him look as if he was just claiming a power role to protect himself when it's pretty obvious he can't back it up.

Way to take what I said out of context. This is what I said:

What other option do I have as a doc at L-1, claiming something else? To sit there or claim vanilla is tantamount to suicide. The only other role I can think of claiming is jailkeeper, and for that to work the doctor would have to be paranoid. You rarely know your sanity if you're starting on Day 1, and even in night starts, figuring out you're paranoid takes awhile.

I thought I implied here that it's better to tell the truth than to lie at L-1 if you're the doctor, whether you think claiming doctor is useless or not. I also thought I was a big advocate of vanilla townie

NOT

fakeclaiming a power role before I was told how vanilla fakeclaiming doctor might be an effective gambit.

It may be true that I've only been able to dodge the noose twice after claiming vanilla (I got endgamed in one and won the other), but that's still misrepresenting my position on claiming because what you said implies that I think nobody should ever claim vanilla, which 1.) I don't and 2.) is completely false.

[StrangerCoug]

Now that you bring it up, Elmo, MiteyMouse has been quieter lately than I'd like her to be. She has posted too recently to be prodded, though.

[StrangerCoug]

That's not my point, Apoth. My point is that a power role has absolutely no reason to claim vanilla. I am a power role; therefore, I have no reason to claim vanilla.

Also, how do you know there's only two scum?

[StrangerCoug]

With this number of people, I assumed that there'd only be two.

I've seen two-man scum teams in a twelve-player game, but more common is three, just so you know.

But a power role should keep himself concealed. To reveal yourself at Day one is just like signing your own death warrant. You've practically doomed yourself, regardless of whether or not you are a power role!

Uhh... Last time I checked, not claiming your role when you're at L-1 will only serve to get that warrant signed faster since a refusal to claim is a scum tell. That's why some people demand that people at L-1 "claim or die". There is also rarely any danger in lynching a claimed vanilla, which is why I said that for a doc to claim vanilla is suicide.

Mod: Both games referenced below are completed.

I've been driven to claim doc on day one before (Newbie 630), and I really was the doc in that game. The Mafia had a roleblocker, and they opted to block instead of kill me, but even though I ended up losing I managed to avoid getting lynched.

I've also been driven to claim vig on Day 1 (I'd have to double-check the number, but I think it was Open 80), and once again I made a truthful claim. After I survived an attempted Mafia kill, said Mafia decided to keep me around since that's what I got for announcing my intended targets out loud. That wasn't won either, but I was able to force the game into a draw.

And if you are the power role, then congrats. You just reduced your value for the town. You'll have to choose whether to protect yourself at night, or to risk your life for someone else. If you had remained secret, you would have been a damn sight more useful.

I lost the option to keep my role a secret when I got to L-1. I am forbidden from protecting myself, as most docs are, so that's not an available option either.

So, in a nutshell: Yes, I am well aware of the fact that my protection ability is now useless, but it is still invalid to present something I was forced to do as a case against me.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: It was Open 81, not Open 80.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote

.

SC, do you have any games in which you have been scum and were lynched or nearly lynched, and/or in which you fake-claimed a PR?

I faked tracker in Mini 624 and seer in Open 96. I was scum in both games, and got lynched in both. (For the latter one, my Day 3 play is controversial, but I was confirmed scum upon bussing my buddy with my claim. Talking about it gives me a headache, so please don't bring it here.) As for the games where I was scum and didn't fake-claim, you're on your own I have a Wiki page. Read it.

Mod: Both games mentioned are finished.

I haven't decided on Ythill vs. LlamaFluff, and I don't have a lot of time to comment on it (if I'm not out the door in the next few minutes, I'll miss the bus). I owe it a read, but it'll come when I can get to it.

[StrangerCoug]

In what dialect is "we should probably lynch one of these two people today" wishy-washy?

The dialect where you say it by naming MM and SC as buddies, and weighing the identity of the third between me and Rx, and decide Rx based on LF being either wrong or scummy (you were vague), and then concluding that we should hang MM or Rx.

I'd say QFT, but I'm trying to work out Elmo's thinking. It seems that I either dropped lower on Elmo's list of suspicions (I don't remember him believing my claim) or am now off it entirely. I kind of see how LlamaFluff played a factor in picking Apothecary over you as scum, but I'd like to see quotes.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP for crossposting: Cephrir, nice OMGUS.

[StrangerCoug]

Cephrir, you FoS'd MiteyMouse specifically for being my scumbuddy. How can you accuse player X of being player Y's scumbuddy when player Y's alignment is not confirmed?

I buy the fact that you forgot to unvote me after my claim, probably because I forgot about you posting after my claim. However, I fail to see how MiteyMouse implied that scum are more easily bored by certain exchanges than town, and your response to MiteyMouse called your actions not pro-town reeks of

tu quoque

.

[StrangerCoug]

Now that Ythill brought it up, I'm bolding what concerns me about LlamaFluff's post:

Quickly Ythill launched an attack on Atlas for what seems to be key points of; slinging mud (which was later written off as possible null), buddying, theory discussion,

trying to get Primate lynched on alignment instead of uselessness

, using a false dellima and abandoning the wagon.

WHAT?!?

Major HoS: LlamaFluff

[StrangerCoug]

@SC - You do realize that was what I said that Ythills case on Atlas was right? Either you misinterpreted something, or you need to explain more.

You're right—it was the former

Un-HoS: LlamaFluff

[StrangerCoug]

Simplified summary: Llama has claimed that (1) my Atlas case was weak and therefore scummy (2) my Atlas case is a model for validity. The difference was tactical, meaning that he is saying whatever serves him best at the time, rather than what he truly believes. That's a pretty serious scumtell.

I'm pretty convinced given just this that LlamaFluff has contradicted himself, but I'm wary of FoS'ing LlamaFluff again because of a misinterpretation, so I'll ask Ythill one question about this before acting further on this case: Is LlamaFluff saying that your Atlas case is a model for validity in the sense that it is logical and backed up with evidence, or is he saying that it is a model for validity so he can prove that your case is invalid?

[StrangerCoug]

Cephrir, you FoS'd MiteyMouse specifically for being my scumbuddy. How can you accuse player X of being player Y's scumbuddy when player Y's alignment is not confirmed?

I was just saying that I think you're both scum, but I'm fairly confident about your alignment so I think I can pretty reasonably call anyone else I think may be scum your scumbuddy. There's also the part where MM's post seemed to show that she considers you a beacon of protownness, which I find slightly suspect and possibly indicative of a connection. But mostly, the answer to your question is 'hyperbole'.

Very well then, point dismissed since you're allowed to have more than one suspect. (I do myself: My top ones are Apothecary and LlamaFluff, but I haven't forgotten about you.)

[StrangerCoug]

Is LlamaFluff saying that your Atlas case is a model for validity in the sense that it is logical and backed up with evidence, or is he saying that it is a model for validity so he can prove that your case is invalid?

I think the correct answer here is: neither. His intention was to say that my case was a model for validity in order to validate his own case. However, his intention doesn't matter in this instance (see below).

And why does he need

YOUR

case to validate

HIS?

[StrangerCoug]

Well, I think another

FoS: LlamaFluff

is warranted anyway.

[StrangerCoug]

He also brought up Kokusho's gambit, which is a load of crap in a situation like this.

For the last darn time, it was brought up as the only thing I could think of where town would want to fakeclaim. I knew it didn't apply, but the fact that it didn't was supposed to be a point against you as I wasn't aware of the gambit of vanilla faking doc (I see the point to it, but it's not something I'd want to try).

[StrangerCoug]

No-lynch D1 leaves us with no more info on D2, and is extremely anti-town.

Quoted for truth. What on earth is Apothecary thinking!?

[StrangerCoug]

Apothecary, if I were you, I wouldn't be pessimistic about your impending death. You should be fighting back. See Mini 601 Day 3, where I pretty much gave up as town and ended up being the lynch that day.

I think the mod's well aware that Mini 601 is over, but bolding this sentence anyway so it gets her attention.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: your = my

[StrangerCoug]

There we go. It's more pro-town to fight to the death than let yourself be consumed.

Pretty much the major reasons why people think you are scummy are:

• You misrepresented me by taking my "claiming vanilla townie is suicide" comment out of context.
  
• You suggested a No Lynch Day 1.
  
• Not a lot of things you said regarding my claim make a lot of sense in a pro-town context.

What I personally

DON'T

think is scummy (or at least not anymore):

• Your saying that I could be vanilla fakeclaiming doc (Corvuus shot that down by explaining how it might work).
  
• Your implying that there are only two scum (I understand your confusion).
  
• Your saying that we're all bankrupting our credibility by grasping at straws (I know I confused grasping at straws with straw man arguments, but other than that the only two things I did were ask if I interpreted it correctly and say that I was trying to figure out why you said it).

[StrangerCoug]

You forgot about my opinion of just claiming vanilla if that's what you really are, but I think your defense covers it anyway.

About the last one, I was saying in general, but while that was not what I was thinking about when I wrote that, you're on the right track. If you have a power role at L-1, then you should claim it. Yes, in most cases your role becomes useless after doing so, but nobody except scum wants to lynch a doc, cop, vigilante, etc. That's why I said what I said.

[StrangerCoug]

I do think that before we lynch we should have everyone mention their top 2 scum picks at least?

Apothecary and LlamaFluff.

[StrangerCoug]

I do think that before we lynch we should have everyone mention their top 2 scum picks at least?

Why? What does this do other than give scum a better idea of who the most obvious townies are?

How does naming off one's top two suspects give scum a better idea of who the most obvious townies are? We've all been doing this all game, MacavityLock. What gives now?

[StrangerCoug]

But Corvuus never asked who everyone thought the two towniest players were.

[StrangerCoug]

I had the worst case scenario worded differently in my head (keep the people named around so the scum can set them up to fall), but the end result is the same.

[StrangerCoug]

In the beginning I didn't feel commited to the game and didn't really get into it, just watching it for a while, and not posting. This was lurking and I should have made an effort to be more a part of this game. (Points 1, 4 & 2)

Confessing your crimes, Apothecary, huh? Tsk, tsk.

My fence sitting of SC in the beginning was because I, again, didn't really take part in the game, and I didn't want to commit at that point. Plus the way it was worded did make it look a lot weaker.
I meant he could've been a confident that the accusations wouldn't lead up to a lynch. (point 3)

Being noncommittal is scummy.

I often feel really threatened in these sorts of games when people press me. But 176 was a post because people asked why I voted for Corvuus. (Point 5)

If you're going to play Mafia, you will have to live with this. Yes, to the initiate, Mafia can be a living nightmare. But, in my opinion anyway, you improve only by playing. That's why I haven't given up playing despite my losing record as both town and scum.

As for my "ingenious suspicions" I never posted anything agaisnt you. I was just concerned that you were barking up the wrong tree. But that statement about SC being a vanilla fakeclaiming was a pile of crap, I know. That was a stupid belief I had, and I just feeling a little pity for him, because he could've been town. (point 7 & 8).

Oh,

NOW

you think I'm telling the truth.

As for my illogical defences, I am not exactly a veteran player at this, so I am not very good creating an argument to defend myself (as evidenced now). I also failt to read fully throught some posts, and this causes problems. (points 9 & 10)

I believe this is called the newbie card.

The argument for a no-lynch is just me being a conservative. I would prefer to only lose one town player, than lose two in one day. But I do understand that it is the more pragmatic approach to win the game. I'm still rather naive in this game so I often go for a no lynch instead of a townie lynch (ie, me).

Yes, we want as few townies to die as possible. But even mislynches give us info to work on. Think about it.

[StrangerCoug]

Bump. Let's get to lynching Apothecary, guys.

[StrangerCoug]

What is considered an active lurker?

If I'm not mistaken, someone who makes a whole bunch of fluff posts over a long time period.

[StrangerCoug]

I think it's obvious that I like an Apothecary lynch better, but I see the case on MiteyMouse, and I think LlamaFluff is scummier than Ythill. There are still some things I don't like about Cephrir (mostly early today), but I have more reason right now to believe Cephrir is town than scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please prod Jazzmyn.

[StrangerCoug]

To Ythill: I didn't want to commit an opinion on SC because I didn't want to be put under pressure, as I said earlier and I didn't want to commit properly.

This is not an excuse for withholding your thoughts on me.

[StrangerCoug]

It's probably a bad idea to hammer given jazz's catching up and MM being replaced.

If my count is correct, qwints, you just did so. Congratulations.

[StrangerCoug]

It's probably a bad idea to hammer given jazz's catching up and MM being replaced.

If my count is correct, qwints, you just did so. Congratulations.

It's not. Missed the unvote before the vote (and hadn't you unvoted, you would already have been voting Apothecary).

[StrangerCoug]

How hard is it to kill Apothecary, for the love of the mod?

[StrangerCoug]

SC - If you are going to live on borrowed time please scumhunt, or at least give the illusion of scumhunting

I'm trying to get Apothecary lynched for reasons I have already stated. I already named my other suspects—you and MiteyMouse—but Apothecary is much closer to being lynched than either of you.

And you should not be telling anyone to be giving the illusion of scumhunting in lieu of actual scumhunting.

HoS: LlamaFluff

.

[StrangerCoug]

I have someone who I thought was scum claim doctor and no one want to lynch them, now they are sitting back saying "oh I think this person is scum" and thats about it. If you are scum, cool keep doing it. If you are the doctor though, START HUNTING. You are going to get mislynched if you dont, for the record saying "player X is scum" is not scumhunting.

Prove that all I have said in regards to my suspicions post-claim is "player X is scum".

Also since when MM? You keep saying "Apoc and llama", MM gets pressure and now you think he is a good lynch too?

Since I said I saw the case on

HER

. I don't think she is as scummy as you and Apothecary, but her minimal contribution combined with her replacing out once pressured is undeniably telling.

[StrangerCoug]

I already named my other suspects—you and

MiteyMouse

Uh, where did you name her as a suspect?

I think it's obvious that I like an Apothecary lynch better, but

I see the case on MiteyMouse

, and I think LlamaFluff is scummier than Ythill. There are still some things I don't like about Cephrir (mostly early today), but I have more reason right now to believe Cephrir is town than scum.

I think seeing the case on somebody implies that that somebody is a suspect. My top three suspects in order are Apothecary, LlamaFluff, and MiteyMouse.

[StrangerCoug]

@SC and Ceph - Is MM or Apoc scummier? Why?

LlamaFluff, you're not reading this game. I just said which one I think is scummier four posts ago, and I've been pushing that person like mad. He's non-committal, he's misrepresented me, and a bunch of other things that it's too early in the morning for me to think about this game.

[StrangerCoug]

Unless something surprising happens in the next 12 pages of reading I'm afraid the current leading wagon on apothecary is just gonna be your standard lurkerwagon, which at this point feels like its going to be full of fail.

The wagon on Apothecary is not a lurker wagon. He's also acted very suspicious after my claim. He's misrepresented my stance on claiming and he's non-committal.

[StrangerCoug]

Yet, SC continues this tack, saying in later posts that “suggesting that a vanilla is fakeclaiming to shield from his or her lynch is a good way to bankrupt your credibility” and that he can’t think of any other situation other than Kokusho’s Gambit (which is not at all the same circumstances) in which a townie would claim doc.

That's not true. Kokusho's Gambit is the only situation I thought of at the time where town would want to fakeclaim period, not doc specifically.

Yes, it's very possible for vanilla town to fakeclaim doc, but I thought it was stupid.

SC goes on to say in his post #476 that he’s “been driven to claim doc on day one before (Newbie 630), and I really was the doc in that game. The Mafia had a roleblocker, and they opted to block instead of kill me, but even though I ended up losing I managed to avoid getting lynched. “ Why the word, “really”? If you were the doc in this game and in that game, wouldn’t you be more likely to say, “I was driven to claim my doc role on day one in another game, as well” or something like that, rather than “I was really was the doc in that game” ? Perhaps it’s semantics, but perhaps it’s a genuine slip-up.

All I can really say is to read Newbie 630 yourself.

[StrangerCoug]

I'd say somebody should drop the hammer.

Seeing as I'm doomed, I'll do it myself.

Unvote: Apothecary
Vote: StrangerCoug

[StrangerCoug]

And my buddies pulled it through. I was hoping to get Apothecary lynched Day 1 and set Cephrir up for Day 2, but I guess suicide

WAS

the answer this time.