Newbie 74 - Game Over

[Locus Cosecant]

Each given person has a 2/3 chance of being pro-town, and a 1/3 chance of being scum. Given this, it would make sense to keep the cunning people

alive

, so that they could probably use their cunning to ferret out scum, right?

*not voting, because doesn't have any suspicions and random votes are silly*

[Locus Cosecant]

The problem with that logic, inHimshallibe, is that it assumes that the doctor fails. A successful doctor protection on either night 1 or night 2 makes no-lynch a noticeably better option than lynching pro-town. Now, I'm not too pessimistic about our ability to ferret out and lynch scum; I think it's better to lynch than to no-lynch. However, I think leaving out the possibility of a doc protection skews the data a bit.

[Locus Cosecant]

This game needs to get off the ground. Lurker huntin' time, I guess.

vote:Myopia

Also, mathcam, when you do votecounts, can you include a list of who's not voting? That information is helpful.

[Locus Cosecant]

That's some pretty crappy logic there, Myopia. First you essentially echo the reasoning I posted against jdtay's vote on Talitha, then you try to set up a link between me and Talitha because I posted that reasoning? I can't see why it's an acceptable sentiment for you to state but not for me. Hypocrisy is a good sign of someone who's looking more to attack than to find scum.

Speaking of hypocrisy, your post put suspicion on kieron for acting newbie-ish, right after you'd just finished demonstrating your newbishness by asking about the situation where 2 town and 2 scum remain alive.

Also, your post contained a veritable mountain of weasely language. You cast aspersions on three different people, but you put half an fos on one of them. You said phrases like " I cant put much weight to it at this point", "he might simply be what he seems", and "also seems relatively benign". Kinda looks to me like you're trying to lay low while still looking like you're posting content.

To sum up then, I'm quite happy with my vote.

[Locus Cosecant]

Personally, I think you're adding a bit too much content, Myopia. You're giving the mafia (and/or town) tons of ammunition to attack you with. When on the first day, keep it simple and make sure you don't say anything you have to take responsibility for unless you have a strong suspicion or solid information. In later days you can attack people as they attack you, when everyone has ammunition.

Are you encouraging people to lurk, JDTAY? If nobody says anything useful the game doesn't go anywhere.

And Myopia, you are, in fact, being hypocritical. Attacking something in others and then doing it yourself is the textbook definition of hypocritical.

[Locus Cosecant]

Sorry, Locus, but all the vets know that the game begins on Day 2. I wasn't supposed to tell you guys, but basically we wait for some n00b to try to play the game on Day 1 and lynch him. It's how we vets avoid getting lynched Day 1.

JDTAY, I'm fairly simple-minded, so you'll have to break things down a little for me. I don't understand complex things like "sarcasm" and "humor". It's a great disadvantage, I know. The point I'm trying to make here is...

What, if anything, are you actually trying to say? Do you stand by your advice to Myopia earlier? I'm a little confused, and I know I've had trouble with taking people's jokes seriously before.

[Locus Cosecant]

Im kind of annoyed that locus has kept his vote on me for what must have been the mildest attack in the history of the game.

Well, that was kind of my point. You were incredibly wishy-washy, like scum trying to stir the pot without being noticeable.

Vis-a-vis JDTAY's post, I'm still smarting from Newbie 66, where lemming posted a "joke" which turned out to be... actually a joke, and he was pro-town. While I think the serious business of lynching scum is not the appropriate time for levity, I don't want to lynch a pro-town for cracking a joke. Still, since he hasn't come forward to clarify his position,

FOS: JDTAY

[Locus Cosecant]

I'm sorry, but all this bluster makes a perfect cover to hide scumminess. If your actions are strange

anyway

, how are we supposed to notice if you're acting scummy? I've given you a chance to explain yourself, and you have refused.

unvote

,

vote JDTAY

[Locus Cosecant]

mathcam, you have Tally on there as both voting inHim and not voting. I think you mean that Myopia is not voting.

[Locus Cosecant]

o.O That's... a damned strange claim, JDTAY, to say the least. You were not in immediate danger of a lynch; there were only 3 votes hanging over your head, and one of them hadn't even been placed yet. What's more, you played quite aggressively for a doctor player, practically demanding votes.

On the other hand, lynching a doctor would suck. A LOT.

unvote

for now, waiting for a possible counter-claim. Myopia and JDTAY are still my highest suspicions, but I'll wait for everyone else to post and confirm that they are not going to counter-claim.

I don't know; could someone with more experience tell me if Myopia's last sentence makes sense? Is it not worthwhile to trade a doc for a scum? Can we trust JDTAY if there's no counterclaim?

[Locus Cosecant]

Actually, my number one focus coming into the game was hosing you n00bs, but now it's helping my team win, I guess.

I will post again when I am less nauseated with rage.

[Locus Cosecant]

JDTAY, if you don't want to play mafia, why did you sign up for the game? Your attitude disgusts me.

kieron, AIUI, the whole point is that we try to find scum, and then lynch them. The reason for claims is so that we don't inadvertantly lynch a power role. Aside from that, your statement made very little sense. Please think about these things a little more before appealing to a player who, for all we know, could be scum.

My vote goes back to

vote: Myopia

; same reasons I had before, plus he continued to pursue a claimed doc and said the real doc shouldn't come out.

[Locus Cosecant]

I think the idea is that pro-town people never lie, so that when you catch someone in a lie, you can be certain that they're mafia. That social convention is probably to the benefit of the town.

[Locus Cosecant]

kieron, why do you continue to suspect the claimed cop?

strong FOS

kieron.

[Locus Cosecant]

You mean the claimed doc, right Locus?

My mistake.

[Locus Cosecant]

I still gave JD 3% assuming the (very unlikely) scenario I outlined where a townie falsely claims doc...

*eyebrow* If he's a townie falsely claiming doc, he still isn't scum, you realize.

[Locus Cosecant]

Mind explaining why inHim and I top your list?

[Locus Cosecant]

Could you explain, then, why you think Myopia etc. are pro-town? Are these suspicions based on anything, or...

Speaking of which, why do you suspect JDTAY at a whopping 10%? Wasn't it you who said we essentially had to believe his claim?

[Locus Cosecant]

She's third on my list, after Myopia and kieron, although the way she places me at the top of her list and refuses to give me any justification for it is... worrisome to say the least. It would be nice if you gave me something to respond to, Talitha.

confirm vote: Myopia

, though if a wagon on kieron or Talitha got big, I wouldn't want to Nader the voting.

[Locus Cosecant]

imo, this is the scummiest thing weve heard from you yet locus. so basically your willing to jump on any of three different bandwagons, me, kieron or talitha???

Don't get so defensive, Myopia. I'm just making it clear who I would be willing to vote for at this point, so that the town knows. Any one of the three seems like it has a decent chance of finding scum. I'm sorry if you're upset that your name appears upon the list, but...

[Locus Cosecant]

imo, this is the scummiest thing weve heard from you yet locus. so basically your willing to jump on any of three different bandwagons, me, kieron or talitha???

Don't get so defensive, Myopia. I'm just making it clear who I would be willing to vote for at this point, so that the town knows. Any one of the three seems like it has a decent chance of finding scum. I'm sorry if you're upset that your name appears upon the list, but...

[Locus Cosecant]

Defensive? You're already voting for me. I dont exactly have too much more to worry about from you do I

That's not what I meant, Myopia. I meant the intimidation tactic of "oh, person X suspects me, so I'll throw suspicion on him".

I called you focused before. Now you just seem indiscriminate. Isnt leaping from bandwagon to bandwagon a scum trait? Arent you proposing just that?

Crap logic + misrepresentation of my position. I have much first-hand experience with games that stall out and then randomly lynch someone at deadline. I do not want this to be one of these games, so I make sure the town knows where my voting pattern is right now.

This is not a bandwagon leaping move at all. It's exactly the opposite. Now that I've said who I suspect, if I were leap opportunistically on a bandwagon to kill someone who wasn't on the list, I would have some explaining to do to the town. If I'm scum, I've just weakened my position noticeably. And you say this seems scummy?

What about talitha? You didnt seem to find her a bit suspicious until she identified you as slightly more likely to be scummy. Now your happy to hang her?

Yes, the percentages she posted were what put her on the list. I'm as suspicious to her as the person she's voting, but she won't give me anything to defend myself against. Even after she said "we have to believe the claimed doc", she still puts JDTAY on the list at 10%.

And I take issue with you saying I didn't find her the least bit suspicious earlier. I just had no particular reason to suspect her above anyone else. In fact, I seem to recall saying something along the lines of "Please think about these things a little more before appealing to a player [Talitha] who, for all we know, could be scum." Saying that I found her utterly unsuspicious before is a flat-out lie.

[Locus Cosecant]

I find this post fairly suspicious. I think it's scummy play to bring someone into the picture with yourself. And, I feel scum would post this in hopes that the town would not suspect them because they defended someone else.

Well, I couldn't very well ask "Why do I top your list?", now could I? That would have been inaccurate, because I shared the top spot. I wasn't defending you, just wanting Talitha to post

reasons

behind her statements.

And then, I really distrust anyone who posts something along the lines of "If I were scum" or "Do you really think I would have done this as scum?" I find this a fairly weak defense, because there's no telling what scum would do to save their skin.

I agree, saying "my actions hurt me if I'm mafia" is not a very strong general defense, because if those actions draw suspicion away, then they aren't hurting me. However, when someone points to the very actions that would make my position as mafia weaker as being scummy, I need to point this out. How can they be scummy actions if they're harmful to the mafia?

This approach is also very manipulative, because it would tend to make a reader automatically assume the posting player is not scum

Now, be fair. It's in my interest as a pro-town player not to be thought of as scum. If I get lynched, we just mislynched, after all.

Locus elicited a negative reaction from me twice in the same page, and I now find him most suspicious.

unvote, vote : Locus

At least I post twice in the same page.

[Locus Cosecant]

I'm leaving until Monday to visit relatives. Please don't lynch me while I'm away.

[Locus Cosecant]

LC seems like he has a good grasp of the game, and should know that JDTAY's claim is good, making this question more of a ploy for us to doubt the doctor.

I've finished a grand total of one game of mafia ever, so, despite what I may believe to be the case, I lack the confidence to make statements about theory with conclusivity, especially since it is not unimpeachably necessary that an undisputed doc claim be certain. Rather, it depends on social convention of under what circumstance people claim.

[Locus Cosecant]

Locus, when a mafioso claims doctor, it would make sense for the real doc to come out and take down the mafia instead of letting a mafioso get away with looking innocent. It's common sense. I think you're trying to look more unaware than you are.

I agree, if the social convention is that you always believe an unopposed doc claim. However, that's not a god-given truth, just a social convention, which is why I wanted to make sure of the social convention before proceeding.

After all, I still have people voting me after I claimed doc in Mini-140.

[Locus Cosecant]

So are we waiting for kieron, or replacing him, or what?

[Locus Cosecant]

Waiting to hear from KingEnigma.

[Locus Cosecant]

And (a more minor reason) I get annoyed when the person who is posting the most content gets jumped on, when if they hadn't posted so much they might not have been voted for. It's not something I want to be part of, for meta-game reasons.

On that note,

you've

posted surprisingly little content, especially from a supposedly experienced player. You've attacked inHim for lurking, me for ... ??? FILE NOT FOUND ERROR and defended Myopia because you saw that ... ??? FILE NOT FOUND ERROR. If newbies are supposed to be learning from your wisdom, you should really consider putting some of your wisdom in the thread, you know?

[Locus Cosecant]

- Gives no reason at all except "seems scummy to me" - until requested twice for a reason.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*snicker* *chuckle* *snort*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Ah, you crack me up, Talitha.

[Locus Cosecant]

Talitha, you've shown an impressive level of hypocrisy lately. That signals scumminess, as it shows that you don't truly disagree with what you say you disagree with, but are just looking for reasons to attack people.

I'm happy with my vote on Myopia until he posts something, but

strong FOS: Talitha

.

[Locus Cosecant]

Damn it, if you people want to quote people, do it correctly, will you? My head hurts from trying to read all those screwed up quote blocks.

[Locus Cosecant]

I'm kind of incredulous that I'm still being accused of not posting any content.

It's because you don't

explain

yourself. Seriously, you're just playing dumb, now. I've been wavering between you and Myopia for a while now, but you continue to insist that black is white and night is day.

unvote, vote: Talitha

[Locus Cosecant]

It's because you don't explain yourself.

Seems to me that a pro-town player would ask for clarification if they felt that any of my actions or statements needed explaining. Feel free to ask me anything, about anything that I have said or done, I'll be only too happy to explain myself.

I

asked

you why you suspected me, and you refused to tell me.

And by the way, you haven't answered my earlier request:

Could you please elaborate on my impressive level of hypocrisy, Locus?

Sorry, I missed that when the posts started becoming unreadable. You keep attacking people for not posting content, when you have refused to give your reasons for things as well.

If you don't like my style, that is one thing. If you bothered to check, you'd see that I play like this whether I am town or anti-town. There is no justification for your vote.

You're always a hypocrite?

[Locus Cosecant]

Oh, I see.

unvote,

waiting for people to counterclaim or not.

For the record, I am not the cop.

[Locus Cosecant]

Hypocrite is a technical term for one who says one thing and lives by another. Can you suggest a word I should use instead, in order to live harmoniously with the town?

[Locus Cosecant]

Im also finding it sus that locus and dmi are still attacking talitha pending possible counterclaim.

I unvoted. I'm waiting to see if there's a counterclaim, which is, AIUI, what you do in this situation. That's a crap logic reason for throwing suspicion around if I ever heard one.

Talitha explained to you why you were at the (joint) top of her list. It (imo from what she said) wasnt what you had done but that others seemed less guilty. There didnt seem to be anything suspicous about you!

And she refused to give any reason as to why others seemed more innocent. She refused to give reasons that I seemed scummier than the others. That's essentially the same as giving no reason whatsoever, which makes her a person who says one thing and does another when she chews out others for not giving reasons for their suspicions.

Both times you have been on the receiving end of any criticism at all (my throw away comment at the start about you maybe covering for talitha) and her "list" you have responded very strongly..

My response to you at the start had nothing to do with the fact that you criticized me, and everything to do with the fact that you seemed almost unbelievably timid, like you were trying to plant the seeds of suspicion in people's minds without anyone suspecting that you were behind them. It's not that you were attacking me, it's that you were attacking me fecklessly.

Since it looks as though Talitha is cop (only one person to go), I'm returning to my previous suspicion.

revote: Myopia

[Locus Cosecant]

Well, I'm kinda surprised that you didn't investigate me, given that you were stating beforehand that you thought Dmi and I were scum, but I guess in your situation I'd investigate the lurker, so I'm gonna guess King Enigma.

[Locus Cosecant]

What the hell? Talitha, are you probing me? I'm not scum! You're playing a damned dangerous game here. What if the other people see that you called me out and start bandwagoning me down before you can reveal the truth?

You're being irresponsible, Talitha. There are other ways to get information.

[Locus Cosecant]

Well, I'm glad you have the sense not to vote yet, Myopia. I just hope everyone shares your good sense. I don't expect you to believe me at this point, but I know that Talitha didn't

actually

find me guilty, and she'll back soon to explain this. She's just prodding me to see how I react.

[Locus Cosecant]

Absolution is out of the question
It makes no sense to apologize
The words I thought I brought I left behind,
So never mind
All over but the shouting, just a waste of time
Never mind
All over but the shouting, just a waste of time
I'm not ready as I'll ever be
I climb the walls, I fall into the sea
I'm not ready as I'll ever be
And I suppose your guess is more or less as bad as mine
All over but the shouting, just a waste of time
Never mind
All over but the shouting, just a waste of time
And I suppose your guess is more or less as bad as mine
You oughta tell me, you oughta say if you're not sure
You oughta tell me, you got to help me remember
Never mind
All over but the shouting, just a waste of time
Never mind
All over but the shouting, just a waste of time
Never mind
Never mind
Never mind
Never mind
The words I thought I brought I left behind
So never mind

Talitha, we're going to lose this game over your stupid grudge. I urge you to reconsider. You're not being fair to the other townies; you can't bring your personal feelings into it like this.

[Locus Cosecant]

Heh, funny Locus.

Yeah, you win, Talitha. I'm scum, Myopia's my scum buddy, you were just too smart for us both. Nothing to do but lose, lose, lose at this point. I wasn't expecting your clever strategy of lying to the town about who you investigated; I've cracked like a nut under your brutal interrogation.

Time to end my pitiful scummy life.

vote: Locus Cosecant

People like you ruin the game.

[Locus Cosecant]

If you lynch me today, tomorrow won't matter. I don't expect any of you others to listen to me, but Talitha needs to start telling the truth.

[Locus Cosecant]

Sheesh.. locus is still trying to kill me.

And why would I do that? After all, you're my favoritest scumbuddy.

You're all wasting your time. The game is in Talitha's hands now.

STOP LYING!

[Locus Cosecant]

Yes, Talitha. There's still time for you to speak up and prevent this travesty from occuring.

This is not a nice thing for you to do, you know?

If it were just you and me, I could see it. I've been a little bit rude to you in the past. I probably deserve to hang. I can roll with it. However, there's another townie in there, somewhere, and you're not being fair to him. You're forcing him into a losing position for your own pride.

If you're on a team in a multiplayer game you have a responsibility to your teammates. This is true in Mafia as much as it is in CounterStrike.

[Locus Cosecant]

Goodbye guys. I'm sorry we lost. I guess I should know better than to piss off the high and mighty Talitha.

[Locus Cosecant]

Sorry about all that, Talitha.