Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[forbiddanlight]

Well, we all know how I start these things, though in light of mind screw maybe I should rethink this
...
...
...
NAH

Vote:Tarhalindur

[forbiddanlight]

...and so it begins...

Vote: Forbiddanlight for voting the mod which offers absolutely no information to the other players of this town... or space station as the case may be.

Because I've only done this in every OTHER game I have played at least since Mini 630. Even if I did random vote I doubt you'd get much from it.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yeah.

OMGUS FoS: veerus

[forbiddanlight]

You should also realize voting Tar is actually more relevant in a tar game than it is in any other game.

And what do you propose the mods do to me when I vote them?

[forbiddanlight]

I'd voye For but if its meta.

Vote: Natrishka

Self voting in the random voting stange = scummy.

Isn't that Nat's meta as well? Just what I've observed.

[forbiddanlight]

I like my vote.

But I will

UnFoS veerus

and start FoSing down the list each vote count to see who's special ^-^

FoS VisMaior

[forbiddanlight]

I really don't care if they are or not though. If I'm in another game with you I'm still going to vote the mod first post. It's what I do.

[forbiddanlight]

It's still a theme game though, and thusly FoS's MAY count for something on someone.

[forbiddanlight]

To be fair, Cheshire Cat knew. And of course, I was masquerading as the mod for a while there, lol. Ah, that was fun. I'm STILL pissed that I made two big mistakes and single handedly lost it for the town (Trusting Nat and vigging IAUN because it was 2 AM and I thought I miscounted the players :S)

[forbiddanlight]

ok.

UnFoS, FoS: Empking

And SSK is right. You really can't trust tar if the game is themed.

[forbiddanlight]

I know my vote is on the mod. Part of me wants to start a bandwagon on the mod to make sure he's not doing anything crafty.

The FoS' are part of the "testing" period of any tar game. It would be nice if more people would help. There's no one who seems particularly scummy to me at the moment.

[forbiddanlight]

Not really. Right now this is the best use of a random stage I've ever partook in. If I find something, I'll be happy. If I don't and the game starts moving, well, that's good too.

[forbiddanlight]

Nyeh...you might have a point about the FoS though. All I'd prove is that my FoS isn't a vote or that someone is mistrusted.

I still haven't seen anything overtly scummy to switch my vote to though.

[forbiddanlight]

I dont think second guessing the mod, or trying to figure out the setup is productive.
That said, forbiddan seems very keen on people FOSing a lot.

In Tar games, second guessing the mod appears to be the norm. Ah, maybe I'm getting too into Mind Screw mode.

And in some tar games, most notably the Mind Screw game, FoS' did things.

[forbiddanlight]

When the hell was lynching any survivor claim NOT the default.

Mind Screw. I seriously should have vigged him or called for his lynch at that point. But I didn't know that policy at the time.

[forbiddanlight]

I won Mind Screw 2 as an SK off the back of a Survivor Rolecop Lover Mason claim.

I recall Survivor rolecop. But where did Lover Mason come in?

[forbiddanlight]

veerus ur fosing me

y


hi forbiddan r u mafier

Oh god who the hell let you in?

Once again, no.

*sigh*, this game just got more annoying. And are we going to get into the anti-town meta=policy lynch argument here as well? It's annoying, and lurking is rather harmful, and I'd PREFER it if SSK didn't do it, but it's a null tell with him. He DOES have to post within activity requirements and if he's scum he'll screw up somewhere.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd like to mention I'm going V/LA starting Thursday, but I'm going to be low activity most of this week anyway. I should be back monday.

[forbiddanlight]

Not really. I mistrust tar games more than any other game. I just was a little misguided.

[forbiddanlight]

cretin wagon is A-OK!

Unvote, vote cr3t1n

[forbiddanlight]

Because I haet him? idk, my bff jill?

[forbiddanlight]

Is my V/LA noted, Tar?

[forbiddanlight]

Well, Nat is certainly an idiot. But, his role is a null tell for his alignment. Part of me wants to vote him because of Mind Screw II, but that's probably screwing myself...

And then I notice that Cybele and Kinetic magically jump on Nat. And there are two survivors...

I almost want to think it wouldn't be this obvious.

But, either way, asking the survivors to claim, while likely futile, isn't scummy. We can deal with Nat later (I think). I'm happy with

Unvote, vote Cybele

HoS Kinetic

Also

HoS MafiaSSK

You are phony as hell, I'm just leery of any survivor in a tar game (they have teeth *shudder*). I'm pretty sure the people jumping on Nat with those BS reasons are likely survivors.

[forbiddanlight]

Mind explaining why you think its a null tell?

Well, first, it's a tar game. That's all you really need

But further, what alignment is a survivor hunter to you? pro town? pro scum? Third party? I don't know about you, but I could find cause to put it in any of these three.

There was nothing magical about it. I gave my reasons for my vote, explained as much as I felt I needed to, and voted him. Cybele immediately following like he's attached to my ass is more on him than on me.

As for your obvious attempts to link the two of us together, maybe you should do a little more research. In my first serious post of this game (123) I noted the very thing everyone is voting Cybele for and FOSed him for it. 7 posts before Arlex voted for Cybele, which was his first vote.

Hey listen. You and Cybele aren't connected, nor did I ever say you are. I in fact, intimated that you were both survivors. So, let's see what the survivor role is. A third party that tries to last to endgame, wins with any faction as long as they are alive. I highly doubt you two are connected. Don't try to make it look like I am connecting you. That's a strawman, k thx.

Oh, and bussing doesn't look good. Why is Nat as a survivor hunter auto scumming him again?

Ah, what a perfect example of Ad hominem without being aggressive (which it seems many people on this forum incorrectly assume is needed for an Ad hominem attack).

You either disagree with my conclusions or otherwise don't believe they are right, but instead of arguing against them you make an attack against me (he's most likely a survivor, thus he must be wrong not because the argument is wrong, but because he's a survivor.)

Sorry, that doesn't fly, and for trying to tie me to Cybele without doing a little research which would show that very unlikely, and using a fallacious argument to try and discredit me further I FOS:forbiddenlight.

Speaking of fallacies, you engaged in one of the most incredible strawmans I have ever seen. Good show on the scumminess, survivor man. I'm not connecting you and cybele. Your reasons for voting nat are his role. Yeah...NO. Get evidence next time, k thx, and try to avoid giving your opponents stances you can actually beat when they have you pinned.

Unvote, vote Kinetic

So...let me understand your logic, Kinetic...your voting me because...wait...your voting me because...your voting me because I want to win?

Well, to be fair, this is bullshit too. We vote scum who just want to win, do we not? I reject this line of logic. But, this does imply third party. However, given the two win conditions, you could be aligned elsewhere as well...confusing :S.

FoS: Nat

[forbiddanlight]

You are connecting us together, both implicitly and explicitly. Just because you're linking us together as survivors and not mafia does not mean you did not EXPLICITLY argue a link. Even in your rebuttal you used the SAME link to try and prove you didn't make a link. In fact you VOTED Cybele even though by your own admission you don't think that he's scum! If you DIDN'T think he was scum then why did you vote for him? All you have is a possibility that he MIGHT be a survivor based on an argument I made and that he (albeit way too quickly) agreed with.

A third party is for all intents and purposes not scum. Survivor masons sounds farfetched. I'm not connecting you two no matter how much ad nauseum you throw at me. You two are probably survivors, of different flavors, since instantly a bandwagon forms on the biggest threat to you. Hmmm...

There is no strawman in my argument.

End of conversation. I'm not going to fight semantics here. You said it, if you didn't mean that, then say that you didn't mean to, but don't turn it around on me because what you said (and continue to say) is very clear.

Bullshit. I never connected you two, and anyone THINKING could tell that.

As a matter of fact, I ask everyone, did I connect Cybele and Kinetic by calling them survivors? Please answer?

If you want to have a logical fallacy-off, I can play that game too, but it's just a distraction. I show you how your argument is a fallacy, you show me how mine could be a fallacy, blah blah blah. In the meantime the scum win. I'm going to end it here and now before it becomes a distraction.

Because I'm right

Forbiddenlight: You may want to rethink that whole 'Cybele is a survivor' theory. The biggest gap: I've my recent actions have, effectively, thrown myself into the fire, something rather counterintuitive for a survivor, dont'cha think? Also, I'd tell you why I'm not likely to be scumbuddies with Kinetic, but he's already beat me to it.

If you don't think you'll actually be lynched for it. It's WIFOM. I would take an obvious chance like that if I thought I could pull out. It really depends on your confidence, not the situation.

Also, FL's apparent confidence that there ARE two survivors seems suspicious. FOS: forbiddanlight

Actually, at least two. For now, I think Nat is telling the truth about THAT. I don't trust him, but he wouldn't lie about everything. The best lies have seeds of truth. Interesting call for a massclaim, by the way, kinetic.

[forbiddanlight]

IF the scum also have two win conditions, in NO WAY can one of those win conditions be pro-town. Why? Betrayal. If a scummer has a scum win condition and a town win condition, then he can just tell the town who his scum buddies are, lynch them, and win with the town.

Lakitu in Mushroom Kingdom.

THUS if a scum has another win condition, that win condition must either be neutral, survivor, or scum related. I was thinking this when I was preparing to enter the game (I wanted to join from the beginning, because I was intrigued, but the game closed up before I came back to the site). When Nat basically jumped up and said "Hey, I have a 'neutral' second win condition", ... well, yea, you can put 2 and 2 together now if you want to. But that is why I wanted him to reveal his win conditions, because I wanted to see if I could get him to slip without any help from anyone else...

Nat has information. I'd like to pull as much as we can out of him and discard him if we decide he's a scum neutral. You however, have not shown any promise of information at all, which is intriguing. Hence, why I vote you between these candidates.

at the very least, anti-me and quite likely anti-town. FOS: Empking

So, did anyone ELSE notice this in veerus' post?

FoS Veerus

[forbiddanlight]

I don't understand your problem with that statement but I'm guessing your lack of knowledge in the theme is the reason for that. Since this IS a theme game that the mod didn't require background knowledge for, I'll try to explain.

In my win conditions, there are four opposing factions mentioned (something that I'm sure is true for most, if not all, players). As I actually know the story of Babylon 5, one of the win conditions specifies factions that I wouldn't exactly call scum, thus the reason for the differentiation.

Hmmph...I still don't like it. Given all the hubaloo about survivors a neutral win condition scares me, and everyone would claim their other condition is town. However, I can't fault that most everyone likely has a neutral win condition.

UnFoS

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, it's more like, I don't think you are going to give any apples if you have them, and you are more likely to be scum. As someone else said, Nat is least likely to be town, but you are most likely to be scum. I honestly think you are the correct lynch. What I'm trying to figure out is how to steal those apples from Nat as well though...and part of this is intuition that could be completely wrong...but I also have a feeling nat gets more information as the game goes on. I don't know why, but I get that feel.

That said, if a Nat wagon DOES sprout up, I'm willing to support it since that may be the easiest way to get those "apples". Also, Cybele wagon=good as well.

[forbiddanlight]

forbidden: Even joking not to found of the OMGUS FOS for veerus Post 37: This seems very unhelpful. Post 52: How does voting for the mod help move the game to real scum hunting? Post 57 then why the FOS on EmpKing?

Nyeh, two words explain each of these problems

Tarhalindur Games.

I'm paranoid as hell, but I'm easing into playing it a little less jumpily. But if there is ONE real mind screw, I am totally going to push the mod's lynch. You never know WHAT he might do. And if you question this, please read the mind screw games.

[forbiddanlight]

Nat is confirmed non town indeed. And I believe earlier we were discussing what to do with non town. I endorse a Nat lynch today, and a Kinetic vig if we happen to have any vigs.

Unvote, Vote Natirasha

[forbiddanlight]

Why am I reminded RUDELY of Mind Screw by that claim? "Oh, I get super powers, keep me alive town". We aren't KKing it today.

[forbiddanlight]

...what? I never claimed to get more powers in MS2. I claimed to be an ability cop(which was partially true), and a survivor(which was also partially true). The whole Lover-Mason thing was because I thought Malthy had Inversion.

No, actually, what you said in that game was that the town should keep you around because you have neat powers.

I'm believe Nat's claim.

Why?

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I was talking about my ability cop ability...

Either way, that's just further justification. My main reason stretches back to early D1 discussion. Lynch all non town.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm believe Nat's claim.

Why?

He makes it seem believable.

So did his survivor claim in Mind Screw II. Null Tell

As for Kinetics plan...given a full claim, I'm willing to entertain a hearing of it. So count that as a tentative yes. But realize part of this is because I expect him to be wrong. Tar doesn't make easily broken games, and I need a good laugh .

[forbiddanlight]

Does anyone have a reason to support the plan other than blind faith that Kinetic has actually broken the game?

Actually, I want to see him fall on his face so I can laugh.

I don't think it will work whether I claim or not. Scum will just fake claim now that we've made it so easy for them.

Given other Tar games, scum don't need our help to fake claim. Tar likely has a "Mafia falseclaim" ability for the scum or any anti town faction.

I don't see the point of the claim other than the fact that you think you've broken the game, despite the fact you know nothing of scum's abilities that could be aided by a mass claim and the fact that the mod is experienced and highly unlikely to have made it so easy.

This, though he might know scum abilities if he's scum .

[forbiddanlight]

The other one is, as you suspect; the anti-vorlon, the vorlon version of Nat's faction. The reason that I fully believe Nat's claim is that I'm from this faction. If you don't believe me, go on and lynch Nat (or me). Since the role PM's are exposed in the death scene, you'll see that I'm right.

Well, that's one win condition. Can we really trust Nat's other?

[forbiddanlight]

Why would two win conditions that have similar structure and be confirmed by the other(i.e. this whole game, I've been targeting survivors) be different?

forbiddan, yes, this is a Tar game, but this is not a Mind Screw game. He is not out to screw us over, he's simply modding. And your flagrant use of meta is not useful either.

Mafia Falseclaim.

I'm sorry I'm laying meta on too heavy but I tend to do that apparently. And even if it's not a Mind Screw Game, I highly doubt he'd leave the scum without that ability. Just my personal read.

[forbiddanlight]

Look for Tar's first game, Mostly Mountainous. The mafia did not have the Mafia Falseclaim ability.
Malthusis: By rejecting my Anti-Shadow claim, you are also rejecting hp[leaves] Anti-Vorlon claim.

That also wasn't a theme game, was it? He's also done more games. I think his more recent games are more of an indicator of what he'd do in this game.

[forbiddanlight]

FL, just because the mod did something in one game, doesn't mean he would do the same thing in another game. Your wild and unbased theories are ridiculous and distracting. This isn't MS so get over it already.

...are you just reading the words mind screw and not reading the rest of what I say? Or are you honestly this ridiculous? I'm not even talking about a mechanic that's mind screwy. It appeared there, but honestly, any well run theme game would make use of that ability or something similar to give the scum fakeclaims. I honestly don't think Tar would leave it out.

....Or all the sharing of information just gives the informed minorities a better idea of who to kill? Have you ever even played mafia?

This. What are you attempting, Kinetic?

[forbiddanlight]

I'd greatly like to hear from other people, I just want to know from you if you'd try and derail the claim if the majority of people supported it.

You know my stance. I only support the plan if you fullclaim with it.

[forbiddanlight]

If we are doing this, I vote

armlx

to start

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, wait, I messed up. Sorry, for some reason I thought we wanted scummy people to claim last O.o...my apologies. Switch my vote to

Cybele

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah.

The goal is to have scummy people claim first fl, so that the people who think are most likely scum and therefore have the most reason to lie have to least info to base a potential lie off of.

Yeah, I was tired when I was thinking. I don't think you are scummy as of yet. I do think Cybele is for what I was attacking him for earlier.

[forbiddanlight]

I think I know what he means, but I'll let him say it. Also recall he's part of the mind screw crew so he might be of that mindset as well. But, I really don't know and need to learn to let people explain themselves.

[forbiddanlight]

Thanks FL Very Happy A role in MS2 died after it's first post but was actually alive and communicated by giving the mod messages to say on it's behalf. Just because the mod said it, I wouldn't exactly be 100% sure that it's the mod's doing. (As in I'm wondering whether someone revealed the true version, or made a fake).

Hey, that was the role

I

got in MS2. I LOVED that role, lol. Even if I handled it horribly. But yes, Lain Iwakura, the Townie that Doesn't Exist was definitely a fun role. I don't think that shenanigan would go on here though, but I pretty much figured this is what you were referring to .

However, you do raise a valid point. What I was thinking is there might a third party role that can post results of investigations or something. Or possibly a scum role that can post their fakeclaim through the mod. I mean, it could be any number of things, which is why I wouldn't cleave 100% to it. For now though, I don't see any reason NOT to believe it.

[forbiddanlight]

That being said, stop thinking over thinking everything. You and everyone else is just going to out think yourself right out of the truth if you constantly feel the mod is out to get you.

You just gave a reason not to believe it...

Are you saying it's a valid one? I honestly don't think so.

However, I will state that what I meant with that post is judge randomgem on his actions, not what the mod says. I have no reason to disbelieve that is RG's role, since he seems to have been acting townie.

[forbiddanlight]

I think that what Mod Tarh did was to confirm him as a scumhunter pretty close to break the game. I dont know if scum could gain any advantage of it.
So yeah, should be interesting to look after.

I honestly don't see this. Scum might use structure of role PMs to try to smoke out power roles or some such. I don't think Tar confirmed Kinetic either way.

Ding ding ding we HAVE a winner! (Read: Forbiddanlight is 100% correct here and you should listen to her.) - Tar

[forbiddanlight]

You all really look too hard for confirmation. The only person that is remotely confirmed is RandomGem, and even that's iffy. Tar was only saying that I correctly understood why Kinetic wasn't modkilled.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, I usually don't get prodded. I'm sorry about the drop in activity. I've been both busy and also there seems to just be more repetition of the same points about this race claim. Honestly, we need to move, both to a lynch and to whatever else we are doing.

[forbiddanlight]

Wow, I usually don't get prodded. I'm sorry about the drop in activity. I've been both busy and also there seems to just be more repetition of the same points about this race claim. Honestly, we need to move, both to a lynch and to whatever else we are doing.

This.
Will give my thoughts after my showa.

saddogirl?

Well, anyway, given the current line of discussion, both Nat and hp need to die I think. I'll support either lynch, and since currently it seems to be in favor of hp leaves...

Unvote, Vote hp [leaves]

[forbiddanlight]

I doubt we have any more survivors - it would make the game a little unbalanced for scum to have such a big chance of their kills failing.

Wait, what? Did I miss something here?

[forbiddanlight]

Survivors can't be killed, correct? They must be lynched, correct? Therefore, we must have scum, that is, evil factions, who are capable of kills, otherwise the point of a survivor role is negated.

Since when were survivors bulletproof? Though to be fair, that WOULD make the role a bit better.

[forbiddanlight]

Ah, my apologies. I assumed that survivor roles would naturally be bullet-proof, since that has been the case in other games I have played with/as them.
I can see that survivors may not necessarily be bullet-proof... but I fail to see the point of it.

Yeah, I know. It's seriously a sucky role to have I would think without SOME protection. I know Tar made a 3 day survivor in a mind screw game, but I dunno what he'd do with it here.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not so sure about Nat and hp's WCs. I think its more likely that there are 3 survivors. Yes, three sounds right. A third scum group consisting of only survivors.

Survivor scum? That sounds like an utterly horrible role. I mean, that's like survivor lovers almost.

[forbiddanlight]

Not exactly survivor scum. And I don't mean to say they're a 'group' in the sense they're working together. What I mean is that I believe that there are three survivors.

Alright then. What makes them different from each other?

[forbiddanlight]

I don't know. I'm just speculating at this point. What makes you think they're different?

Three regular survivors...in a Tar game? Yeah right. Survivor in MS one had that cool power that screwed up vots. Survivor/Serial Killer in MS two had the ability to kill by abilities. Even if this isn't MS, I doubt that Tar would EVER make a vanilla survivor. And I doubt he'd use two of the same type unless maybe they were mason survivors (which would be a cool role, lol)

[forbiddanlight]

Are we claiming or not? And also, I think dybeck is being semi hypocritical. calling out people for stalling when he himself is doing it right there.

Unvote, vote dybeck

With three days to go and significant characters V/LA, lurking or stalling, tell me that you've figured a way around this.

Does it matter? With three days to go you might as well do because it looks like you are gonna die. Also, if no one objects, I think we might as well just do our raceclaims right now, no popcorn. I'll do mine in my next post if people are fine with it and start doing it.

[forbiddanlight]

To be fair, we do need a lynch, and with all the information regarding Nat and such...I can get behind a

Unvote, Vote Knights of Cydonia

.

I also may consider switching to Nat or Mana_Ku under suspicion of scumbuddy protection.

[forbiddanlight]

Hmm? Are you saying that MAna is lying? And WHY NOT SOONER?

[forbiddanlight]

No, I'm not sure Mana is lying. He could very well be telling the truth, but I'm not sure yet.

Ok, so why a Mana vote?

[forbiddanlight]

B5 is babylon 5.

Hey, wait, that sounds just like my race .

Babylon 5 is my race.

[forbiddanlight]

...

YOU COULD HAVE CLAIMED THERE

Unvote, Vote RandomGem

[forbiddanlight]

WAit a second...

unvote

I forgot, your role PM has been revealed. My apologies for jumping on you for that.

[forbiddanlight]

Honestly, I think I'm fine with

Vote Natirasha

comparing the claims.

[forbiddanlight]

Why are you lynching people that don't actually hurt the town when you could lynch people who actually are scummy and have commited scummy actions, like KoC and SSK?

Far too much fear. Allow me the chance to reconsider this game tomorrow when I'm a little less tired and maybe I'll change my mind. But you must admit there is a bit of paralell. I know in my mind I should let it go, but my gut doesn't want to.

But, speaking of which

Tar, I voted Natirasha, and my vote was already not voting so I didn't have to unvote

This mod edit brought to you by lack of sleep, lack of time, and the usual Tarhalindur accuracy in vote counts.

Tarhalindur games: offering consistent inaccuracy in vote counts since 2008. - Tar

[forbiddanlight]

This mod edit brought to you by lack of sleep, lack of time, and the usual Tarhalindur accuracy in vote counts.

At least I didn't shoot anyone with a nice triumphant message about how I figured out the scum . Apparently Mod late night updates are less damaging than players .

[forbiddanlight]

Two cops, huh? Both anti this or that. Odds are you are a specific cop for your alignment if you are indeed cops. But, I'm not so sure I believe it. For now, I'll hold my vote since I'm weary of lynching a claimed cop. The mutator seems more suspicious. I will vote before deadline because I'd rather avoid a no lynch. To be fair, Mafia SSK is an alright lynch but I want his claim first.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...hmm...given Mana_Ku's fullclaim, one of her or hp [leaves], leaning hp [leaves] at the moment, but I'd have to reread his cop claim. And Knights of Cydonia. I'm not really sure about Nat anymore :S. Actually...I have more than two, but you only asked for two and I think those two are higher priority.

With that, I'll

unvote, Vote KoC

I am supa interested in Kinetics plan.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, it's more cybele's behavior than KoC's. He jumps on Nat the minute the idea that a survivor/Volron killer exists is put out there. I don't know much about the series, but I'll look up Narn later to see what I can find.

[forbiddanlight]

B5ers, I wanted to know the two you most thought were scum that have the B5 racial tag. That's it.

Oh, sorry, under B5?

Mana_Ku and...I really don't have a good second read. Empking and DGB haven't been around as much as I'd like, so most likely one of those two. Veerus seems pro town, and I don't have much of a read on Vis Maior.

[forbiddanlight]

Hmm...well, I see the logic for

Unvote, vote: The Internet

.

What I don't understand is why he says 3 of each mafia. Where did this number come from? This is another thing that I feel implicates him.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd probably even rather lynch KoC then work on the speculation that the scum/anti-town groups are evenly distributed among the secondary WC's.

My vote is part that but more because of Internet's latest post claiming three mafia in each :S. That's out of NOWHERE.

[forbiddanlight]

We also need a race claim from you, KoC.

[forbiddanlight]

In Kinetics theory.

Can you cite this? I don't remember it.

[forbiddanlight]

Given KoC's apparent noticing Kinetic without noticing the race claim and predecessor scumminess...also deadline...

Unvote, vote Knights of Cydonia

We'll find out his race the 100% accurate way (I think?)

[forbiddanlight]

Emphasis Mine.

Noted. Fair enough. I wish you had stated it at the time though.

[forbiddanlight]

Tar is amazing. Thanks for being liberal with the deadline. And now we wait :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Knight of Cydonia, Vorlon Operative

/Minbari Godfather

, lynched Day 1

Any ideas what to make of this? Because I'm looking intently at the other Minbari right now.

[forbiddanlight]

On another note, Vote: Farside. Obviously lied about win condition, Dybeck was the other anti-vorlon.

Sorry, where was this? I don't remember it but if you can cite it, I would have to agree with LAL.

[forbiddanlight]

As the main proponant for the race claim, who also happens to be Minbari, do you honestly think I would do this if Minbari was a scum faction? It makes no sense. Read your own role pm.

Just a weird way to phrase it to me. There was also the Narn leader person.

Oh, Mana_Ku and hp[leaves], you obviously had views. What did you see?

[forbiddanlight]

This game seems to be a bigger beast then I imagined.

It's a tar game. What part of that did you miss .

If I had sig space I'd sig this. - Tar

[forbiddanlight]

With the "1 non-town,1 mafia,1 town" components of each faction, it is revealed that The Internet is totally scum.

Where did this formula come from? Not that I disagree per se.

Love how neither of you could get a result. Fisheh.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...wow, well, with that

Unvote, Vote hp [leaves]

We all know malthy is dead if he's lying, right?

[forbiddanlight]

I also don't get why you're voting me off just because I have the ability to kill?

Are you claiming an ability to kill? Because that makes you a liar.

And if Malt is lying, he has the problem of having to deal with Mana_Ku as well (provided she isn't lying)

[forbiddanlight]

ne1 who is voting hp becuz of malts result needs 2 explain y malt is moar trustworthy then hp

If hp isn't scum, then Malt dies tomorrow. It's as simple as that.

This.

If there was a vig in this game, SSK would be dead last "night". If there is an active cop/info role, odds are SSK is a high profile target.

That's how dead weight like him is resolved. Eventually, it may even become a mod meta to not let him into games until he shows improvement.

Nyeh, some people might not kill him and actually look for scummier targets. But, that's a route we don't want to go down.

[forbiddanlight]

True, and I guess the faction thing might influence people to make the incorrect town play otherwise.

But, remember, D1 was a bit crazy anyway. There were more targets for a protown vig than just SSK.

[forbiddanlight]

Hmm...I'm actually beginning to buy both Hp's and malts claims. I still dislike the fact that NEITHER cop got a result, which is odd. But, actually, if malt is a gunsmith like role, it would make sense that some cops would fall under has a gun. In this case, it's a danger sense role, and certain mind raping cops ping that danger sense .

Unvote, vote The Internet

Given the theory (one of each in each race), I feel that this is a good way to test it.

[forbiddanlight]

Anyone who blindly follows this theory before such a time as it is proven is scummy. Using it as additional evidence is all well and good, but it should never be the only reason.

Well, it works for additional evidence since I do feel TI's reaction was weird earlier, but to be fair, how can a theory really be tested without a lynch?

[forbiddanlight]

Doesn't that mean an easily breakable game?

Then it's just a matter of mechanically going through the motions.

Well, I'm assuming there's a curveball somewhere. But I don't think it's with TI.

[forbiddanlight]

Why?

TI's reaction when we started voting him the day before.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, DGB, to be fair, the obv partner is fl, Kinetic believing his theory is just more likely then him unbussing.

Setting me up already? You do realize that malt has been all over the place between "dangerous" and "can kill". He's FINALLY reconciled these, which is why I'm going to

Unvote, Vote [hp] Leaves

. To be fair, claiming "gunsmith like role" and the fact I could see cops as being dangerous, I think it's actually more obvious that I'm trying to actually lynch scum rather than just follow the cop/gunsmith But, whatever.

Why? HP has essentially a guilty result on him.

No, he didn't until malth clarified. Thanks for misrep.

FoS Armlx

Besides, he has admitted that it's a gunsmith-like role. That could mean that he will see cops as dangerous. And not to forget, this is a tar-game. Anything can happen.

this.

[forbiddanlight]

However, that's one thing that bothers me. The other thing is that Malthusis can use his flavour about him being a good judge of character, that he made a mistake. But now he starts talking about knowing it for the fully hundred percent. And that's the other thing. He only started talking about definitly knowing it, after ppl started voting hp.

That does bother me, but he's locked himself to a position that he gets lynched if hp isn't scum/killer.

[forbiddanlight]

Actually, it's D3.

And can anyone update the race claim list?

[forbiddanlight]

Thanks. Ok, so two out of the predicted 3 B5s are dead. This means we likely have two scum/survivors among B5. Unless we are being incredibly stupid about this, which is entirely possible. Also, did any of the flips break any of the other theories?

[forbiddanlight]

I would also like to note that there are two EF alive. Killing Mac will not, in and of itself, end the game for Minbari. Far from it it pretty much makes EF untouchable for anyone who is Minbari.

Has a scum EF died? Because if this isn't the case, we DO have to kill one EF for AoL win con :S. This, of course, assumes that MacavityLock is scum as per your theory. I'm willing to chance it, I think.

Vote MacavityLock

[forbiddanlight]

I'm a firm believer in not letting go of the scum in front of us. Because guess what? We can think through the pacman/ DGB issue. (checked front page to see what to do with EF), and find the scum. I like my vote, and I'm willing to lynch you. I'm further willing to see tomorrow what the situation is and possibly resolve the EF issue then. Though there are arguments for both sides of the EF problem. If we deal with it right then tomorrow, we have less info, but a lot less WIFOM to deal with as well. If we put it off for too long, I can see this becoming of a game of "PREVENT CERTAIN WINCONS FROM COMPLETING" as opposed to actual mafia.

Furthermore, there IS one situation where we can lynch EF wrong.

We use our supposed set up knowledge for a joint Minbari/EF win. But, I need to ask something about that

Mod, if two win conditions are fulfilled at the same time (say, for example, Army of Light and Minbari), do both factions win? I don't see how else to resolve it

Correct.

Side note: EXACTLY AS PLANNED. - Tar

[forbiddanlight]

I assume you mean a joint Minbari/AoL win. Which I think is probably reasonable, but would require so much careful planning, especially for an uninformed group, as to be pretty much impossible. If you lynch DGB or pacman incorrectly first, this game is not going to become "avoid other win conds", it'll devolve to the race war.

Then we just won't lynch incorrectly. Or we'll do our best not to. I can't abide by scum living. I'll only let this go if the town decides it's not worth it. And yes, I meant Minbari/AoL. And also, while I'd LIKE to resolve EF immediately, we don't HAVE to do it so quickly. Which might behoove us more.

[forbiddanlight]

Yup. I'm going down no matter what, but this may actually keep me alive another day or two.

Not if I have anything to say about it. Alternatively, you could be helpful by pointing out another target through the 1-1-1 method ^-^. Because I am INCREDIBLY lazy.

[forbiddanlight]

Would we rather choose we lynch an EF and try and find the scum as a town or let Nat decide who the thinks is the scum? Or worse, Nat might choose to find the town to set us up to the point where we HAVE to either let Minbari win or aim for the joint win, which will be very very hard.

I...like this logic. Though, Nat will just turn around and shoot the other EF, forcing us to leave Macavity alive til we've gotten all the other scum. Again, I'm fine with a joint Minbari/AoL win, but it will be difficult if we are relying on Nat the vig. And remember, even if we lynch Nat it's useless since you can win after death even if your faction is wiped out (right?)

[forbiddanlight]

Deciding between lynching pacman or Macavity now...I mean, Mac is admitted scum, but pacman is pretty obviously scum himself.

[forbiddanlight]

So, why am I scum again? You kinda fail to explain this, and it makes you look suspicious.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, you misinterpreted your results or are flat wrong. I'm not scum, as a matter of fact. As for the rest, we can deal with that tomorrow, I think.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, you've claimed a role that supposedly says I'm scum. My opinion is that it's actually something that reveals an ability to kill. I do have that. Though, then again, that was Malt's role...so, who knows.

[forbiddanlight]

I told FL that since if he is not lying and has a killing ability that killing VM will be the smartest move. I'm personally confirming that Empking is both AoL and B5 faction.

She. And yeah, that's probably what I'll do.

[forbiddanlight]

Originally, I was trying to use my role as a pro town vig, and I thought Mana_Ku was lying her ass off (hence targetting twice). When N3 came around, I couldn't resist the quick win ^-^. So, I'm curious why you blocked me though, farside?

[forbiddanlight]

I do think, though, that in addition to the cult there should have only been one other survivor though.

Would've made the anti conditions too easy though.

[forbiddanlight]

Well still, I'm glad I didn't have to go past D3 after claiming a killing role. I dunno what Kinetic was after saying he knew I was scum, but that scared me into screwing up, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

Jha'Dur - This role was deceptive: the SK condition was unfulfillable by design. This was actually designed as the one true neutral survivor, with the SK condition simply intended as an incentive for the player with this role to kill people (preferably in a disruptive manner). I'm not sure whether forbiddanlight ever realized that the SK condition was unfulfillable, but she played the role very, very well (I was a bit disappointed that she played vig at first, but I do see the logic behind it).

Franklin (the obvious Doc rolename) was given to this character as a safeclaim both because I felt it was the strongest safeclaim available and because I wanted this role to have a hint that there was no Doc.

I knew SK was unfulfillable the whole time, to be honest. It was obvious no matter how you played it someone was going to win racially or factionally.

Actually, there was a possibility. If three unrelated races were dead, there was one AoL, one Volron, one Shadow Operative, and myself, and the Shadow op killed volron, volron killed AoL, and I killed Shadow. But getting in such a position would be practically impossible. I think I could pull off the same with one more AoL alive of one more race. So, SK wasn't so much unfulfillable so much as trying to fulfill Green Liquid's Innocent Scumbag altrenate wincon (Get lynched...but he was a confirmed innocent )

Ivanova - One of the first roles added to the setup, she remained untouched during design. If I had been playing this role, I would probably have globalblocked D2 (especially since that could protect malthusis/Mana_Ku) then daykilled ASAP D3), but veerus's decision made some sense.

I actually was wondering why there wasn't a globalblock D3 (after seeing the roles), which would have completely ruined my plans, since I'm not sure how long I could get away with claiming AoL vig, and claiming SK/Survivor would automatically make me the best lynch given the situation.

Narn Bat Squad Leader - Yes, this was a role in the game. Yes, it was vanilla. My name is Tarhalindur, you know...

Lynch bait!

- Forbiddanlight played an excellent game (to such an extent that I would call her the player who did the most to ensure her own win) - making up for Mind Screw II, I see?

I didn't make any 2 AM decisions . Or give my ability list to anyone. Or for that matter trust an SK . Oh wait, I did do that last. I trusted myself ^-^.

- Town won because Kinetic had enough information to figure out most of the setup and none of the killing roles ever took a potshot at him (FL's choice makes sense given how she played her role, but Mafia should have noticed that he pulled the same bluff in freaktown and not made the same mistake, and VisMaior of all people could have figured out he was bluffing).

I was vaguely considering killing you, but you really weren't hurting me, and you seemed relatively town. I seriously just played as if I was a vig with benefits, and used those benefits D3 for the win . Would you have believed my vig claim (though I would have had to find a different character, lol)?

[forbiddanlight]

There would've been if I hadn't died in N2. I planned on blocking in N3 and blowing someone up in D4. I thought I had enough random suspicion on me (thinking B5 would have the most people and claiming as such) that I wouldn't get NK'd. And the extra day would've given me more information on who to blow up in D4.

Oh yeah, I forgot you died, lol. Solly .

[forbiddanlight]

I'm sure you remember I pre inned. Though I didn't do a few things and I'm sorry about that.