Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[veerus]

Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL

Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force

It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win. We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town. If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.

This is a pretty good guess. One correction though. Vorlons and Shadows are technically races. Therefore, I think the faction WC for them would likely be "kill AOL". And the race WC would probably be "kill the other mafia and Babylon 5". I say B5 because that was the main AOL faction in the series (thus the name of the game).

Anyway, like I said, this is a great guess at the structure even though there are some thematic inconsistencies. But it's quite likely that they are what they are due to game balance reasons and seeing how Tar games have gone in the past, it's not impossible for him to throw in a few inconsistencies to confuse those familiar with the theme. To further support that argument, my race win condition (which you correctly mentioned btw) has such inconsistency I'm talking about so relying solely on thematic knowledge isn't a good idea here. At any rate, I would be for the race claim as the faction WC should be easier to achieve.

That being said, I still think Nat is the best lynch for today. I believe that his claim is fake. This guess is supported by Kinetic's theory and my comments regarding shadow/vorlon win conditions. Even if his claim isn't all fake, Naroon was a renegade and very anti-town in the series.

[veerus]

To further clarify my reason for the race claim is that I'm guessing that all races have a roughly equal number of people. Therefore, during the claim if any one race has more people than other races, that's where the mafia lies...

Hmm, on the other hand (and I'm thinking out loud here), as was pointed out in recent posts, this would encourage people to go for their race WC.. So, if we do not race claim, I guess we can go on as long as we can agree on the likely structure of the game and what to expect out of it. Based on their race/WC's, can anyone else confirm Kinetic's theory or correct it any way?

[Empking]

Yeah, the race claim won't have the effect I think Kin thinks it'll have.

[Kinetic]

Faction Win Conditions
Army of Light (Town): Defeat Shadows and Vorlon Operatives
Shadow Operatives(Mafia A): Defeat Vorlons and AOL
Vorlon Operatives(Mafia B): Defeat Shadows and AOL

Race Win Conditions
Minbari: Kill Earthforce and Narn, they are hunted by Babylon 5 and Unaligned Worlds
Earthforce: Kill unaligned and Centauri, are hunted by Babylon 5 and Minbari
Babylon 5: Kill Earthforce and Minbari, are hunted by unaligned and Narn
Centauri: Kill unaligned and Narn, are huned by Narn and Earthforce
Narn: Kill Centauri and B5, are hunted by Minbari and Centauri
Unaligned: Kill B5 and Minbari, are hunted by Centauri and Earth force

It is just a big circle guys. We're all hunting each other and in the end the scum will win. We must ignore these win conditions and work toward the Army of Light win condition. I know you all have it, and if you don't, you're not town. If there is seven race win conditions then a few of the above race win conditions are wrong, but the circle will still be there I'm sure. The race win conditions are meant to break the town up.

This is a pretty good guess. One correction though. Vorlons and Shadows are technically races. Therefore, I think the faction WC for them would likely be "kill AOL". And the race WC would probably be "kill the other mafia and Babylon 5". I say B5 because that was the main AOL faction in the series (thus the name of the game).

Anyway, like I said, this is a great guess at the structure even though there are some thematic inconsistencies. But it's quite likely that they are what they are due to game balance reasons and seeing how Tar games have gone in the past, it's not impossible for him to throw in a few inconsistencies to confuse those familiar with the theme. To further support that argument, my race win condition (which you correctly mentioned btw) has such inconsistency I'm talking about so relying solely on thematic knowledge isn't a good idea here. At any rate, I would be for the race claim as the faction WC should be easier to achieve.

That being said, I still think Nat is the best lynch for today. I believe that his claim is fake. This guess is supported by Kinetic's theory and my comments regarding shadow/vorlon win conditions. Even if his claim isn't all fake, Naroon was a renegade and very anti-town in the series.

Ah, I know the series as well, but I based my deductions on the series not having anything to do with the game, and only if there maybe resembling some things. I also used the rule the game balance trumpts what happened in the series.

First, Vorlons and Shadow are technically races, however, Vorlon and Shadow OPERATIVES are the younger races being controled by Shadow and Vorlon plots. Thus, Shadow and Vorlon OPERATIVES (who are the target of the AOL win condition, look at it in Tar's post) are a faction, not a race.

Babylon 5 is definately a race, not a faction. And I'll talk to you about the second post later...

Kinetic, wouldn't ever claiming their race just lead to more issues with people pursuing their race WC over the AOL one? Why not just have everyone agree to NEVER claim race, which means no one can ever target another race specifically and therefore has to win via their alignment WC.

No. I'm afraid my big reveal will explain exactly why, but I cannot do that yet.

Because of the circle, you have a balance of power based and assured mutual distruction for the town if we begin trying to go for racial win conditions.

Okay, one is Nat's claim: Anti-shadow. That has no business with either the Light Force or the Vorlons. Their win condition is to get the shadows and neutral survivors dead (one of Nat's early posts was about asking survivors to come out and tell why he shouldn't kill them)

The other one is, as you suspect; the anti-vorlon, the vorlon version of Nat's faction. The reason that I fully believe Nat's claim is that I'm from this faction. If you don't believe me, go on and lynch Nat (or me). Since the role PM's are exposed in the death scene, you'll see that I'm right.

Just telling again that neither the Anti-Shadow or Anti-Vorlon factions need to eliminate the Light Force to win

This post is ... interesting. ...

I can't be sure, but I believe your post actually makes it easier for town to win if we go through with the race claim...

Answer me this... are you Centauri?

I don't think it will work whether I claim or not. Scum will just fake claim now that we've made it so easy for them.

What reason would scum have to claim a false race? In fact, the way my big reveal will show is that they CAN'T pick a false race, I'll know. This was a flaw in the original WC claim, but I made sure this flaw didn't exist before I went forward with this.

Furthermore, one of my win conditions is an anti-faction win condition, so declaring which one it is just makes me a target for nightkill. Which doesn't help me or my faction.

I don't care about your faction win condition. Only your race.

mod is experienced and highly unlikely to have made it so easy.

I present into evidence, Freaktown Large Theme game. The game was a Large game with over 20 people, modded and created by Raj (very experienced mod), Tar and I both played in it. Tar was scum, I was town. The game had a NO REVEAL on death. The town was never sure who was town or scum. There were two scum factions, both of whom could kill up to three times per night. I successfully broke the game and solely won the game from town, out-thought Tar at a pivitol moment in the game, and figured out the ENTIRE set up with less information that I was given in my own role PM for this game. Trust me, figuring out this game was NOT easy, but I did it.

So no, overall, I'm not going to go along with your mysterious, inadequately-informed plan. On Day 1.

That was not my question. My question is, if the majority of the town agrees, do we have to lynch you to figure out your race or will you tell us?

You stated originally you wouldn't entertain the idea without my full claim. I agreed to give it if you agreed to support the race claim. Now you're dialing back and not agreeing to even compromise.

Now it seems to me you never had any intention of even entertaining the idea, and you have been hard set against it from the beginning. Were you just trying to get me to full claim and then leave me hanging without even claiming your race? Sounds scummy...

Role Call so far

Support Plan, unconditionally

Mafia SSK
Theinternet
veerus

Support Plan, with Kinetic Full Reveal

forbiddenlight

Do not support Plan

dybeck
Empking
Nat (doesn't matted since he already claimed...)

Undecided

pacman281292
VisMaior
malthusis
Cybele
armlx
Darox (rep. seraphim)
populartajo
Mana_Ku
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
RandomGem
[hp]leaves
farside22 (rep. Tovarish)

[dybeck]

I just don't believe we have enough information to know that a massclaim will do us any good.

I don't believe you have this information either, although I confess you certainly do seem better informed than the rest of us. Whether you're informed by virtue of being scum, or by virtue of some power role, I don't know. Will you at least confess that scum could have some ability that you haven't anticipated?

Part of me thinks that if you were scum, you wouldn't be so vocal. However, your odd relationship with the suddenly-quiet Cybele from earlier in the game still gives me an inkling that you could be in the same informed minority, and that's another reason why I'm loath to lay all my cards on the table until we've explored some more traditional methods.

Also, I will categorically tell you that at least one of your race WCs is flat wrong.

Can I ask a question to the town?

Does anyone have any evidence that Shadows are not scum?

Does anyone have any evidence that Narn are scum?

[malthusis]

I have evidence that someone is framing the Narn faction to be scum so they can win. And no, I definitly haven't changed my stance on mass claim (That means no). I still want to lynch Nat, his Anti-Shadow claim is suspicous (It isn't like he's going to help the town anyways).

[RandomGem]

Doesn't my vote also not matter?
I'll unconditionally support the plan. I trust you enough, plus I personally lose nothing by this. (Although town may get screwed...)

[Natirasha]

Why would two win conditions that have similar structure and be confirmed by the other(i.e. this whole game, I've been targeting survivors) be different?

forbiddan, yes, this is a Tar game, but this is not a Mind Screw game. He is not out to screw us over, he's simply modding. And your flagrant use of meta is not useful either.

Mafia Falseclaim.

I'm sorry I'm laying meta on too heavy but I tend to do that apparently. And even if it's not a Mind Screw Game, I highly doubt he'd leave the scum without that ability. Just my personal read.

Look for Tar's first game, Mostly Mountainous. The mafia did not have the Mafia Falseclaim ability.
Malthusis: By rejecting my Anti-Shadow claim, you are also rejecting hp[leaves] Anti-Vorlon claim.

[forbiddanlight]

Look for Tar's first game, Mostly Mountainous. The mafia did not have the Mafia Falseclaim ability.
Malthusis: By rejecting my Anti-Shadow claim, you are also rejecting hp[leaves] Anti-Vorlon claim.

That also wasn't a theme game, was it? He's also done more games. I think his more recent games are more of an indicator of what he'd do in this game.

[Natirasha]

Look for Tar's first game, Mostly Mountainous. The mafia did not have the Mafia Falseclaim ability.
Malthusis: By rejecting my Anti-Shadow claim, you are also rejecting hp[leaves] Anti-Vorlon claim.

That also wasn't a theme game, was it? He's also done more games. I think his more recent games are more of an indicator of what he'd do in this game.

Bah, this outguessing the mod is getting us nowhere.

Next, what do you think of hp[leaves] anti-vorlon claim?

[veerus]

FL, just because the mod did something in one game, doesn't mean he would do the same thing in another game. Your wild and unbased theories are ridiculous and distracting. This isn't MS so get over it already.

dybeck: Thematically speaking, Narn are not scum, and Shadows are.. this is also supported by the AOL WC.

First, Vorlons and Shadow are technically races, however, Vorlon and Shadow OPERATIVES are the younger races being controled by Shadow and Vorlon plots. Thus, Shadow and Vorlon OPERATIVES (who are the target of the AOL win condition, look at it in Tar's post) are a faction, not a race.

Ahh.. I think I see where you're going with this.

[Kinetic]

Will you at least confess that scum could have some ability that you haven't anticipated?

You refuse to give an inch, until I give a meter, and then you try and negotiate the inch. -.-

I've given you nearly ALL the information I've gathered and am willing to give you more information, at the risk of myself, yet you refuse to even CONSIDER helping me.

Cows could have wings, .9999999 does not equal 1, scum could have some magical ability that I haven't anticipated, but none of these things matter for what I have in mind, nor will they effect the race claim.

Also, I will categorically tell you that at least one of your race WCs is flat wrong.

I see. This is your issue I bet. Interesting. This could mean one of two things. One, there is a seventh race, like I thought there might be, and this is throwing off my math for the six race theory. Either that or something else is wrong with my math... I'll double check and get back to you.

[Kinetic]

Dybeck, in order to figure out where I went wrong, can you at least give me a little information? Did I have your race there at all? If it was, was both or just one of the races as the WC wrong?

I'm trying to narrow down if there are 6 or 7 races, but right now all I have to go on is the Narn/Centauri anomaly and your own comments. If there is a seventh race, it would make a lot of sense, but I can't pin it down...

[dybeck]

No, I don't think giving scum yet more info is necessary at this point.

I think I've made my point about how half-baked your plan is.

[malthusis]

There's definitly 6 races, just that your WC's are wrong.

[Kinetic]

No, I don't think giving scum yet more info is necessary at this point.

I think I've made my point about how half-baked your plan is.

You haven't made any point. In my original post I mentioned there could be six or seven, but that my plan doesn't require there to be six or seven. The reason I posted what I believed the WCs were was mostly just a guess on some of them. However, none of that matters. If there is only six, then that's perfect.

And stop the bullshit about "don't want to give the scum more information". That's anti-town talk. TOWN are the ones who need to share information, and creating dissent, chaos, and misinformation is the role of scum. Stop acting like scum unless you are, and if so then you're doing a fine job and keep it up.

[Natirasha]

And stop the bullshit about "don't want to give the scum more information". That's anti-town talk. TOWN are the ones who need to share information, and creating dissent, chaos, and misinformation is the role of scum. Stop acting like scum unless you are, and if so then you're doing a fine job and keep it up.

....Or all the sharing of information just gives the informed minorities a better idea of who to kill? Have you ever even played mafia?

[forbiddanlight]

FL, just because the mod did something in one game, doesn't mean he would do the same thing in another game. Your wild and unbased theories are ridiculous and distracting. This isn't MS so get over it already.

...are you just reading the words mind screw and not reading the rest of what I say? Or are you honestly this ridiculous? I'm not even talking about a mechanic that's mind screwy. It appeared there, but honestly, any well run theme game would make use of that ability or something similar to give the scum fakeclaims. I honestly don't think Tar would leave it out.

....Or all the sharing of information just gives the informed minorities a better idea of who to kill? Have you ever even played mafia?

This. What are you attempting, Kinetic?

[Tarhalindur]

"No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free." - G'Kar

Cybele has 48 hours to respond to prod. - Tar

The Fourteenth Vote Count (aka the "Grail" Vote Count):

Vote Count:

VisMaior (0)
Empking (0)
malthusis (1) - cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer)
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (3) - Natirasha, VisMaior, DrippingGoofball
Cybele (3) - MafiaSSK, pacman281292, dybeck (rep. soaperguy29)
MafiaSSK (1) - Mana_Ku
armlx (0)
Darox (rep. seraphim) (0)
forbiddanlight (0)
populartajo (0)
Mana_Ku (0)
Natirasha (10) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), armlx, RandomGem, Darox, (rep. seraphim), Empking, farside22 (rep. Tovarish), malthusis, forbiddanlight, veerus, hp [leaves]
veerus (0)
The Internet (0)
DrippingGoofball (0)
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (0)
pacman281292 (0)
RandomGem (0)
hp [leaves] (0)
dybeck (rep. soaperguy29) (0)
farside22 (rep. Tovarish) (0)

Not Voting (3): Cybele, populartajo, TheInternet

Votes required to lynch: 12

FoS Count:

VisMaior (1) - farside22
Empking (1) - veerus
malthusis (1) - armlx
Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon) (2) - Cybele, The Internet
Cybele (3) - Kinetic (rep. MBPikamon), Natirasha, veerus
MafiaSSK (1) - malthusis
armlx (1) - VisMaior
Darox (rep. seraphim) (1) - hp [leaves]
forbiddanlight (3) - Empking, Kinetic, veerus
populartajo
Mana_Ku
Natirasha
veerus (1) - Empking
The Internet (1) - Kinetic
DrippingGoofball
cr3t1n (rep. Blitzer) (1) - malthusis
pacman281292
RandomGem (1) - pacman281292
hp [leaves] (1) - Kinetic
soaperguy21
Tovarish
people pushing this idea (1) - malthusis
Tarhalindur (1) - Kinetic
Mastermind of Sin (1) - Kinetic
Glork (1) - Kinetic
Lucky Charms (The Cereal) (2) - Kinetic, RandomGem

Current and Final Deadline:

October 31, 2008 at ~6:00 P.M. (GMT -6)

[Empking]

.9999999 does not equal 1.

[Kinetic]

Alright, I slept on it and I think I figured out where I went wrong with the WCs.

Here are the updated WCs for all races, if there are 6.

Centauri, kill Unaligned, Narn
Narn, kill Minbari, Nonaligned
Babylon 5, kill Earthforce, Minbari
Nonaligned, kill Centauri, B5
Minbari, kill Narn, Earthforce
Earthforce, kill Babylon 5, Centauri

[hp [leaves]]

No Kinetic, I'm not Centauri

[dybeck]

Kinetic, your guesswork is putting the town at risk.

And I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction.

And there's every chance you're scum.

unvote, vote: Kinetic

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, your guesswork is putting the town at risk.

And I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction.

And there's every chance you're scum.

unvote, vote: Kinetic

So you're admitting you're scum?

[dybeck]

Kinetic, your guesswork is putting the town at risk.

And I'm fairly certain you're not from my faction.

And there's every chance you're scum.

unvote, vote: Kinetic

So you're admitting you're scum?

If this is a serious question, then you have alarmingly less knowledge about this game setup even than your posts so far have revealed.