Babylon 5 Mafia: Severed Dreams - Over

[Kinetic]

Vote: The Internet

With the "1 non-town,1 mafia,1 town" components of each faction, it is revealed that The Internet is totally scum.

Care to explain?

He won't vote for someone claiming to be his partner.

Who? And who claimed to be his partner? He should vote for his partner?

This game confuses me, but I'm making cognitive inroads, if slowly.

HP claimed Anti-Vorlon. Farside claimed Anti-Vorlon. I'm pretty sure that one of farside or theinternet is scum, so hp (obviously) thinks the scum is theinternet because he'd rather lynch someone who hasn't claimed to be his partner.

[DrippingGoofball]

Ah, I see.

Farside did get caught in a lie though and I can't think of a situation where that would be pro-town. I think she's more blatantly scum. Also, she's giving up for a flimsy reason. Just like KoC gave up when caught and hoped that we'd forget about him. I think farside is hoping that having herself replaced is going to trip us into voting someone outside of her player slot.

vote: farside22

[DrippingGoofball]

Dybeck is a dead anti-Vorlon. So we have HP, Farside and Dybeck as claimed anti-Vorlons?

Am I missing some "anti's?"

[Mana_Ku]

The anti-shadows. Natirasha and I have claimed. There's possibly another one.

[Kinetic]

Ah, I see.

Farside did get caught in a lie though and I can't think of a situation where that would be pro-town. I think she's more blatantly scum. Also, she's giving up for a flimsy reason. Just like KoC gave up when caught and hoped that we'd forget about him. I think farside is hoping that having herself replaced is going to trip us into voting someone outside of her player slot.

vote: farside22

My sentiments exactly.

Except I can't shake this nagging suspicion that Theinternet is more scum. This post from yesterday just screams "you caught me, I have no defense"

Well, I guess all I can say in my defense is don't outguess the mod, and this is a tar game. I'd also like to raise the theory that all of the anti-x are actually members of one of the mafias using safeclaims. Just a possibility, remember there are 3 of them and 3 of each mafia.

Granted, at that point in the game I virtually assured that Theinternet was scum and he was almost assuredly would have been lynched, but he was so... calm about it, it made me think even more he was scum. So much so that when my reason for thinking he was scum was removed I STILL think he could be scum more than someone like farside. How messed up is that?

[Kinetic]

That being said, so far every race but Unaligned has a claimed Anti- player. So if someone from Unaligned claims an anti-role, then unless Theinternet counter-claims farside, he is the scum...

[armlx]

I love how the town are forced to keep the non-towns alive. If you lynch the anti-scums, then the game goes from a scumhunt to a racehunt.

Since when is that remotely true?

[Kinetic]

I love how the town are forced to keep the non-towns alive. If you lynch the anti-scums, then the game goes from a scumhunt to a racehunt.

Since when is that remotely true?

Especially since there is an anti-scum in every race. If we eliminated them all we'd be left with just scum and town.

Unfortunately if we go that route the scum factions will just get free kills for 5-6 days in a row. Not something we can afford.

Right now, however, the anti-scum are more of a problem for the scum their against then the town. When that scum is eliminated, that non-town/anti-scum faction becomes even more useless to the town.

[Kinetic]

This is just a random guess, and I'm afraid I'm not as sure of it as any of my other ideas, but I'm thinking that maybe the Vorlons are from the Minbari, B5, and unaligned, just like their anti-shadow counterparts and that the Shadows are from Centauri, Narn, and EF just like the anti-vorlons.

I'm not trying to direct the cops, so I won't speculate about specific targets, but I do know I'll only believe hp if he comes up with a Vorlon and mana if he comes up with a shadow. As such, I'm thinking checking those specific races because they have a decently high chance of containing said scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

...then unless Theinternet counter-claims farside, he is the scum...

So we have a 50-50 chance of hitting scum with either of these two? If so if becomes a question of which goes first.

[Kinetic]

...then unless Theinternet counter-claims farside, he is the scum...

So we have a 50-50 chance of hitting scum with either of these two? If so if becomes a question of which goes first.

Yes. I believe this.

It is contingent on my theory being right, but I'm sure enough that it is to push for this.

[Kinetic]

...then unless Theinternet counter-claims farside, he is the scum...

So we have a 50-50 chance of hitting scum with either of these two? If so if becomes a question of which goes first.

Yes. I believe this.

It is contingent on my theory being right, but I'm sure enough that it is to push for this.

I should, however, note that my theory could be wrong in this way: If there are only 2 of each anti-faction (a very real and distinct possibility) then farside is false-claiming and the ONLY reason for this is because he is scum. Theinternet would be an innocent in this scenario.

[malthusis]

Hp is lying scum trying to cover her tracks with a cop claim. I am actually a Narn Gunsmith-like role, and I got a guilty read on [hp] having the ability to kill people(The flavor says I am a good judge of character, so [hp] might not nessecarily have a gun). It's also really hard to believe we have 2 cops and 2 roleblockers in the same setup.

Vote [hp] leaves

[armlx]

Vote HP

Its so nice when things are that easy.

[Kinetic]

Hp is lying scum trying to cover her tracks with a cop claim. I am actually a Narn Gunsmith-like role, and I got a guilty read on [hp] having the ability to kill people(The flavor says I am a good judge of character, so [hp] might not nessecarily have a gun). It's also really hard to believe we have 2 cops and 2 roleblockers in the same setup.

Vote [hp] leaves

That is quite the claim and all of a sudden we have another 50/50, one which I personally didn't see coming.

That being said, hp's claim bugged me from the beginning but Mana's coming out actually made me feel better about hp's claim...

If HP is scum, that puts some heavy questions on Mana...

Especially since:

Every night I can read someone's mind, learning his/her race and faction.

And yet he got:

My attempt to read Malthusis' mind also gave me no result.

No race or faction. Bad Bad mojo.

Unvote

(Can't remember if I voted yet.

Vote:HP

[malthusis]

Another fact dawned upon me as I got my results. I'm now thinking that each of the mafia's faction WC's must have mentioned their anti-factions in them for them to get the idea of claiming them, so this logically means the mafia's win conditions do not require them to kill each other. (And if their mentioned WC's had anti-factions in them, this indeed puts a lot of doubt on the people who claimed the anti-races in the first place). Another hit against Mana_Ku is that I simply don't think that Tar would put a cop in a game without a drawback or restriction.

[Kinetic]

Another fact dawned upon me as I got my results. I'm now thinking that each of the mafia's faction WC's must have mentioned their anti-factions in them for them to get the idea of claiming them, so this logically means the mafia's win conditions do not require them to kill each other. (And if their mentioned WC's had anti-factions in them, this indeed puts a lot of doubt on the people who claimed the anti-races in the first place). Another hit against Mana_Ku is that I simply don't think that Tar would put a cop in a game without a drawback or restriction.

I don't know about that. I think the anti-factions might have been named as possible safe claims, but I can't see the actual mafia factions NOT having a clause that the other mafia faction must be killed. That's a mighty big leap.

[Kinetic]

I think my post might be a little unclear, here is my attempt to clarify my meaning.

I can see in the Vorlon PM them mentioning the Anti-Shadow faction as 'allies' and vice-versa, but I can't understand the Vorlon PM mentioning the Anti-Vorlons as a faction objective. It doesn't make sense to have the Anti-Vorlons as an objective and not the other scum faction. Additionally, I feel that if such is so (Vorlons having anti-Vorlons as a faction objective) that we would have seen some sort of targeted attack against them. I'm baffled why we didn't with them claiming cops, and if you add them as objectives as well that would seal the deal.

That doesn't make logical sense in my opinion.

[DrippingGoofball]

Good job.

unvote, vote: HPleaves

[DrippingGoofball]

So, wait. Earlier, I wrote:

"Dybeck is a dead anti-Vorlon. So we have HP, Farside and Dybeck as claimed anti-Vorlons?"

We had 4 possible anti-Vorlons. Does this mean that one of the claimed anti-Vorlon, HP, is lying? If so then what is farside trying to cover up?

[forbiddanlight]

Um...wow, well, with that

Unvote, Vote hp [leaves]

We all know malthy is dead if he's lying, right?

[Natirasha]

Still thinking Farside is more scum, but w/e

Unvote, vote: Hp

[The Internet]

I see my calmness has rubbed people the wrong way. I'd like to point out that Kinetic's theory is very, very far from perfect, having been rebuilt so much it is barely recognizable and IIRC there are still issues and uncertainties. Remember, not every roles have equal shots at winning (jesters can win easy, SK's have hard times). Not sure who'll I place my vote on, waiting for HP's reply.

[Kinetic]

I see my calmness has rubbed people the wrong way. I'd like to point out that Kinetic's theory is very, very far from perfect, having been rebuilt so much it is barely recognizable and IIRC there are still issues and uncertainties. Remember, not every roles have equal shots at winning (jesters can win easy, SK's have hard times). Not sure who'll I place my vote on, waiting for HP's reply.

The original premise is actually still there and stronger then when I originally presented it. Additionally so far nothing has completely disputed this. The reason for the push on the vote between you and farside is if for some fantastic reason you're both not scum, then its a blow my theory cannot live through and it is fundamentally wrong.

However, if one of you is scum, the theory still fits very well.

[veerus]

Kinetic, I know you don't like me trying to attach the theme to everything, but this IS a

Babylon 5 themed game

. Roles were made with at least some connection to the series. When I was reading the following quote, it made me think that you said just about everything that would sound more plausible if you attached the theme subcontext to it instead of just presenting it as another theory.

This is just a random guess, and I'm afraid I'm not as sure of it as any of my other ideas, but I'm thinking that maybe the Vorlons are from the Minbari, B5, and unaligned, just like their anti-shadow counterparts and that the Shadows are from Centauri, Narn, and EF just like the anti-vorlons.

In the series, Vorlons

did

ally with Minbari, B5 and unaligned (by extention of unaligned being allied with B5). Same goes for the Shadows, for the most part. Centauri and EF

were

allied with the Shadows. Narns not so much, but if Malt's claim is legit, then maybe Narn are the true "town" faction since he would be the second non-scum Narn. I know it throws your numbers off a bit... but I think you've said earlier that the numbers may not be equal.

Also, to follow on my earlier theory and attach it to the theme, Alfred Bester is an Anti-Vorlon and is pro-Shadow (aka Shadow Operative) because half the stuff he did in the series, he did it for the Shadows.

Same goes for Mana_Ku. In the series, Lyta Alexander was the only human who "saw" inside a Vorlon. Her Anti-Shadow allignment combined with the character name just screams Vorlon Operative.

I'm not trying to outguess the mod and whatever tricks he's prepared to confuse those familiar with the theme. But look at the facts:

- Vir Cotto is a vanilla Centauri who was pretty much against both Shadows and Vorlons in the series as well as in the game
- Lorien is a neutral. Once the idea of neutrals/survivors came up, I knew Lorien had to be in the set up. I just didn't know in what capacity. Now I know, and the role also discounts other possible independents (soul hunters, that bitch who found immortality, etc)
- Dybeck's role as well as Malt's claim are nameless pro-town Narns, which also makes sense since Narns were not a race with a lot of key characters.
- Lennier as a Vorlon Godfather is a bit disconcerning, but since Minbari were allied with the Vorlons from the start, it's not entirely unexpected that a Minbari would be the Godfather.

I guess my point here is that I would like to lynch either hp[leaves] or Mana_Ku. They both claimed cops and they both returned no results. They both claimed Anti-x roles when it is just as likely that they are listed as X Operatives and just decided to conceal that fact by using the "safe" format already presented by Nat. I'll repeat again, I'm not trying to outguess the mod, but I believe that it is plausible that the mod didn't expect people to do such a full claim as they have done so far. I would assume that most people would claim an ability(cop/doctor/etc) and a race, but not

everything

as we have seen so far. And to any other player, the character names are mostly meaningless. To someone with knowledge of the theme, those two names just scream Shadow/Vorlon.

vote: hp[leaves]

If he comes up town, or anything but Shadow Operative, I will not mention theme connections for the rest of the game.

Also, as far as farside is concerned. The role PM is not very confusing. She's been on the site for a while and is even modding a probably similarly confusing theme game "Family Guy". Claiming incompetence is a poor way to clear yourself when caught lying. I think she would also be a fine lynch target however I would like to confirm my theme connections first.