Choose Carefully Mafia: (Game Over)

[Battle Mage]

confirm.

[Battle Mage]

Rich, do you know SPAG?

[Battle Mage]

we really need Armlx here, to talk tactics. Do we vote for the weapon first, as that might allow 1 scumgroup to get complacent, and run riot, or do we do it last, to try and gauge reactions and make votes mean something?

Also, i'll

Vote: CarnCarn

3rd on a wagon is obvtown.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Don't forget: we use whatever weapon happens to have the most votes (tie goes to the one that got there first) when the lynch goes through. Should we decide to choose the weapon afterward, we have to make sure that nobody hammers our potential lynch victim while we shuffle our votes.

Having said that, I'm not sure it'll matter (at least on the first day). Let's say we vote gun and and the lynch fails. While there are apparently other reasons why that lynch would fail, the most likely reason would still be because that person is Sicilian. Come night, that person's going to get night actioned up the wazoo and likely lynched the next day. Either way, they're screwed.

Are you an alt of somebody?

BM

[Battle Mage]

we really need Armlx here, to talk tactics. Do we vote for the weapon first, as that might allow 1 scumgroup to get complacent, and run riot, or do we do it last, to try and gauge reactions and make votes mean something?

Also, i'll

Vote: CarnCarn

3rd on a wagon is obvtown.

BM

you need armlx to "talk tactics" and you jumping on my wagon? Hmm...

FoS: Battle Mage

I should probably elaborate on this. My vote on armlx was not purely random. I have some setup information that makes me sightly suspicious of him. Nothing incriminating either way, but suspicion none the less.
BM calling out to armlx to "talk tactics" and jumping on my wagon deepens my suspicions.

That's acceptable. If Armlx turns out to be scum, i'm sure that will look scummy upon me. But atm, i'm not quaking in my boots-mainly because i dont see what setup information you could possible have. And i really hate these 'secret tell' discussions.

And ooi, how can something be suspicious, but 'not incriminating either way'?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Not a random vote:

Vote:ZTR

Why is this not a random vote?

When someone says they're mafia as a joke, they usually are.

i assume you have meta evidence for this?

FoS: Empking

This isnt a vote because i vaguely recall you being as helpful as this in another game we shared.

BM

[Battle Mage]

You are either avoiding the issue or I just picked up another bit of information about the set up.

Or I'm calling your bluff.

Like I said, I can't see any source of pre-game information that would only make you

slightly

suspicious of a particular other player.

No, it's not a bluff, and from only pregame info, it is only enough info for slight suspicion.
What alarmed me was BM's calling out to you to "talk tactics", which I found strange. Still, it's only slight; not more, not less at this point.

Talking tactics is like, Armlx's THING. Have you never played with him before?

Unvote, Vote: Santos

CarnCarn bores me now. Let's have a ride on the WIFOM train.

BM

[Battle Mage]

HoS: Empking

Joining a very easy wagon under pressure.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Players i would happily bandwagon now:

Santos
EmpKing
RiceBallTail

Of the 3, the latter has majorly pinged my scumdar twice, out of a handful of posts.

Unvote, Vote: RBT

but

IGMEOY: Empking, Santos

BM

[Battle Mage]

sarnath'd. lol

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, this game seems large enough to have 2 scum teams.

The set up itself implies 2 scum groups. considering we have to choose which one is lynch vulnerable each day.....

Going ahead and clearing up any remaining confusion. You know for a fact that there is a Sicilian Mafia and a Corsican Mafia in the setup.

Reading through, Armlx is starting to smell...right up until this comment by the Mod. Why would the Mod post this? It seems fairly obvious to anyone who is paying attention. And it's not like it will really have a major impact on the game if it isnt remembered. That is, i cannot see how the Mod could possibly make this comment if Armlx was scum, because if he did, it could be considering meddling with what could be a ploy by Armlx.
As such, he's pretty much confirmed town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also, the vote count has some discrepancies. ex: BattleMage is not voting when he clearly is voting for me.

and you also missed my vote switch to RBT. So yeah.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Well, I'm glad you guys do, but it doesn't really clear them in the slightest (not that I don't believe the claims).

@BM: get out of my head...

Never!

Also, CarnCarn and Armlx are both town. I'm about 95% sure. An RBT wagon is the way to go. And some pressure on Santos if we wanna really screw with the Mod.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I am pretty sure I voted for gun.

Fixed.

This is 'why Santos'.

BM

[Battle Mage]

The set up itself implies 2 scum groups. considering we have to choose which one is lynch vulnerable each day.....

Going ahead and clearing up any remaining confusion. You know for a fact that there is a Sicilian Mafia and a Corsican Mafia in the setup.

Reading through, Armlx is starting to smell...right up until this comment by the Mod. Why would the Mod post this? It seems fairly obvious to anyone who is paying attention. And it's not like it will really have a major impact on the game if it isnt remembered. That is, i cannot see how the Mod could possibly make this comment if Armlx was scum, because if he did, it could be considering meddling with what could be a ploy by Armlx.
As such, he's pretty much confirmed town.

BM

I'm not sure I understand how the mod agreeing with Armlx makes him town. I don't understand what kind of ploy Armlx could be pulling, because he's pretty much giving information from the OP.

I read Armlx's post as being equally unsure of the setup- hence he used the word 'implies' and skirted the issue, as opposed to stating that there WERE 2 scumgroups. I saw the Mod's edit as directed as much at Armlx, as CarnCarn, who had seemed equally unsure. This interpretation may not be accurate, on reread, but even if we assume that Armlx was merely being sarcastic and pointed out the truth of the setup, i find it hard to see how the Mod could viably edit his post and concur with this, if he was scum, because it could be classed as meddling. This is why i dislike unnecessary mod intervention. But, in this game, i think we can learn alot simply from Mod slips.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Santos makes it clear that he wants to be voting gun. It's a pretty weak tell, since it really could be someone correcting the mod, but it also does make me suspect him (very slightly) to be of the mafia that is immune to gun.

If BM got something different from that, he'll have to say it, but that's what I got from it (after he pointed it out).

Forgetting the gimmick does not seem to be a scum tell, rather, if it's a tell at all (which I don't think it is) it's probably a town tell, since if he were scum, CarnCarn'd have more reason to know about it, but if he were town, it's not really on his mind.

That's part of it. But the fact the Mod got confused, could be linked to the only extra mechanic in the game- scum who are immune to certain weapons. Perhaps the Mod automatically put Santos-scum as voting Gun, because he is gun-immune, and this is logical. In other words, the mod error reflects badly in either direction.

Also, i've read your points against Armlx, and you could be right. For now, i'll continue to consider him a suspect. But i'm not buying CarnCarn-scum atm. Not unless Armlx is too.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote; Vote:Moses

I think you're trying too hard.

The sad thing is, i'm inclined to agree.

FoS: Moses

One to watch, for sure.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm feeling Moses is town based off his early strategy speculation about choosing the lynch method. I think he's extrapolating too much from an honest slip, though.
Also, I tend to agree that the Santos "tell" is a stretch, as well as trying to read mod-tells. AFAIK, who knows for sure why mods really do anything?

Well, it worked in Khelv's mini game. Admittedly, that was Khelv, but still. This is why Mod participation in a game really bugs me. After playing games that were broken by it, its kind of instinct to assume that we CAN draw conclusions from mod slips. I could be wrong, but it's a train of thought nonetheless.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Santos makes it clear that he wants to be voting gun. It's a pretty weak tell, since it really could be someone correcting the mod, but it also does make me suspect him (very slightly) to be of the mafia that is immune to gun.

If BM got something different from that, he'll have to say it, but that's what I got from it (after he pointed it out).

That's part of it. But the fact the Mod got confused, could be linked to the only extra mechanic in the game- scum who are immune to certain weapons. Perhaps the Mod automatically put Santos-scum as voting Gun, because he is gun-immune, and this is logical. In other words, the mod error reflects badly in either direction.

Eh...I figured you'd say this, but I was hoping you didn't think this. The mod correcting a mistake is not a tell or an error at all. You're assuming that the mod has memorized the setup up, knows which scum group each player is off the top of his head, and that the mod would think that a scum player would automatically vote for the weapon that doesn't kill them.

Big stretch.

roflmao. If the Mod doesn't know the setup, then you get serious problems. Are you seriously suggesting that assuming our Mod has given this game due care and attention is a 'big stretch'?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I am not going to vote for a rope or gun at the moment because now it just seems to mess with other player's abilities to find scummy tells when they have become much too reliant on these abrasive lynch methods.

This, I don't like. The Gun/Rope vote is very linked to people possibly being scum. Avoiding it = bad.

Hmm, i have to agree and disagree with you here Armlx.
On the one hand, i agree that people's votes for Gun/Rope could be useful as scumtells later on. On the other hand, i really dont see abstaining as scummy at this point-indeed, i've intentionally done the exact same thing, because i have no preference either way. Can't be considered scummy.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

Why would they need to know everybody's role?

Because, roles do stuff. And in THEME games especially, the Mod really needs to be aware of who can do what. Do you think it's viable for a mod to accept night actions from vanilla townies? Daykills from Roleblockers?
This argument is ridiculous. The Mod should know everyone's role. End of story. -.-

BM

[Battle Mage]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

Why would they need to know everybody's role?

Because, roles do stuff. And in THEME games especially, the Mod really needs to be aware of who can do what. Do you think it's viable for a mod to accept night actions from vanilla townies? Daykills from Roleblockers?
This argument is ridiculous. The Mod should know everyone's role. End of story. -.-

BM

No, but the mod doesn't need to remember who has what role. Just have a record of who has what role.

It depends on the setup. Typically in a theme game, you can get wierder roles, and having a record isnt enough. Have you ever moderated a game on MS?

BM

[Battle Mage]

On MS, no.

That explains it then. I guess you'll just have to trust me on this.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

Why would they need to know everybody's role?

Because, roles do stuff. And in THEME games especially, the Mod really needs to be aware of who can do what. Do you think it's viable for a mod to accept night actions from vanilla townies? Daykills from Roleblockers?
This argument is ridiculous. The Mod should know everyone's role. End of story. -.-

BM

No, but the mod doesn't need to remember who has what role. Just have a record of who has what role.

And if they were ever unsure they woud check and know - therfore not needing to memorise anything.

If they didnt KNOW, theyd always be unsure, and would thus, always be checking, until such a time as they LEARNT THE DAMN ROLES.
It's not difficult to remember something fairly simple. If your brain cant keep track of 'Name: Role' for 16 people, then you have serious problems.

BM

[Battle Mage]

On the other hand, i really dont see abstaining as scummy at this point

Its the whole random vote principle. Random votes are fairly useless early on, but not random voting is anti-town for reasons I'm sure you have heard/understand.

I understand what you are referring to, but the fact is, votes for lynch are different to votes for HOW to lynch. Whilst townies have a vested interest in who they want to lynch, and can have opinions on who is scummier than who, voting for kill METHODs at this point is simply a shot in the dark for most of us. Except scum that is. Now, if no townies vote for weapons, scum will either be outted immediately, or, far more likely, they will also not vote for weapons, and thus a mechanic that can be exploited by the scum is removed from the equation.

I have a funny feeling Santos is telling the truth. Meh, these roleclaims are really bugging me now. In a game with 2 mafia's, 2 mason pairs is possible for symmetry, but them all being innocent seems unlikely.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote: CarnCarn

If your brain cant keep track of 'Name: Role' for 16 people, then you have serious problems.

I would hope all mods would have the roles noted down and use their notes when processing night actions. Trying to do it all in your head is when mistakes happen.

As far as random-voting for a lynch method at the moment, I think stating that you have no preference right now is ok, as long as everyone votes one way or the other by the end of the day.

In Theme games, actions can happen during the day. That's why Mod's need to know their roles. It's ridiculous to suggest that when writing, distributing roles, and then recieving actions, or not, from them, the Moderator will not remember the setup to a greater or lesser degree.

BM

[Battle Mage]

also, i forgot to say, Sineish, if you can explain your last point, without help from Armlx, that'd be good. Why should we all vote by the end of the day?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

And at no point in the game did you have any idea who was who?

No, but the mod doesn't need to remember who has what role. Just have a record of who has what role.

QFT. Dude, the point is that a mod may not remember exactly which player has what role on D1, nor do they need to, because, it's...uh...day, and no one...uh...does anything.

Ugh. Look around buddy. This is the Theme Park. In case you haven't been here before, it's where the wacky games go. One's that can have roles with actions DURING THE DAY. *facepalm*

If they didnt KNOW, theyd always be unsure, and would thus, always be checking, until such a time as they LEARNT THE DAMN ROLES.

Uh...dude. The posts in question are 42 and 79 (after about 16 confirmation posts). There's no reason to check what role someone is just because they've posted.

There is no reason to check the roles atall, if you know them. Equally, if you dont know them, you should be constantly checking until you do, because otherwise, you can't effectively run the game.

It's not difficult to remember something fairly simple. If your brain cant keep track of 'Name: Role' for 16 people, then you have serious problems.

Uh...dude. I memorized the english equivalent to 125 spanish phrases in one afternoon, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to memorize the roles to all the players in Newbie 680 (game I'm modding).

Newbie games are somewhat different, as you will only get actions at night. But, if you dont know the roles by Night 1, you will have to check, and keep checking every night, until you learn them. Same principle, but to a lesser degree.

And your statement requires all three of my points to be true...can I assume you agree with the others and this is the only one you had problems with?

what?

So now that we've had this pointless argument, what's next?

The mod correcting a mistake is not a tell or an error at all. You're assuming that the mod has memorized the setup up, knows which scum group each player is off the top of his head, and that the mod would think that a scum player would automatically vote for the weapon that doesn't kill them.

The most important one is the last one, because technically the mod could look it up if he felt like it, but in order for BM's accusation to be true, all of those statements need to be correct, in that the mod must know which role a player is (the first two), and that he must make the mistake of assuming the scum would act a certain way.

See? When you put it like that, my logic seems pretty sound.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

Duh. But the whole point of this discussion is trying to answer that question.

2) The mod is equally likely to correct a mistake made by player regardless of role.

But is the Moderator equally likely to make a mistake about the mechanic, regardless of role? Imo, the answer is no.

3) There's no really good way for the scum to vote for a lynching weapon. Voting for the opposite one seems to make sense, but they can WIFOM by voting for their own, or they could abstain. You're accusation also requires voting for the opposite weapon to be the most desireable outcome for scum, which I'm not sure it is.

at the game's most basic level, at which the Mod will probably be looking at it, the default position of scum is to preserve themselves.

BM

[Battle Mage]

It's still D1. No actions. I assume the mod has better things to do than sit in front of his computer and memorize which role goes with which person pregame.

I assume you missed my comment that this is the Theme Park, and day-roles do exist. Can you say 100% that there arent any in this game?

I'm not saying he won't know some of them, but I am saying that he's going to remember that XXXX belongs to YYY scum group before even receiving a night choice from them.

lol, the funny thing is, you are now speculating as much as me. I guess it's a matter of opinion. And in my opinion, the Mod will know the roles, and a mistake could be telling. Case closed.

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

And at no point in the game did you have any idea who was who?

On D1, when the lynch occurred, it behooved me to double check to make sure that if I said someone was townie, they were actually a townie. There were points in the game where I had no idea who was who. When I modded Dragon Mafia (before my untimely disappearance) I knew most of the roles, because most of them were silly. But I still probably would not have been able to know 100% of the roles had you quizzed me on them.

As long as you have an idea of who has an ability, and who doesnt, who is scum and who is town, you should be ok.

Ugh. Look around buddy. This is the Theme Park. In case you haven't been here before, it's where the wacky games go. One's that can have roles with actions DURING THE DAY. *facepalm*

Dear BattleMage,

The role in question, i.e., scum, is very unlikely to have a mechanic during the day. I am not arguing whether or not a mod in general knows the roles, but rather, in this specific situation, whether it is possible. Normally, I'd agree with you, but in this situation, on D1, with a fairly non-wacky set up, and with a mod who has been (no offence, mod) not really on top of the ball here, I think it's a little unreasonable to assume that he knew Santos was scum and that he knew which group.

Love, STD.

Dearest STD,

Scum are not the only roles which can have day actions. Even protown roles with day actions might encourage the mod to KNOW THE SETUP. This is perhaps the simplest of truths. Is this game an open-setup?
Perhaps it is BECAUSE the Mod is not 'on top of the ball' that he might accidentally make an assumption which could reveal information about the setup. Maybe i'm being naive, but i'm going to assume that people who care about a game, will pay attention to who gets what role. Maybe you aren't the pioneer of moderation on MS atm. People who don't care about a game, shouldn't run it, because if the Mod doesnt care, why should the players?

Lots of love and KISSES,

Battle Mage.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

Duh. But the whole point of this discussion is trying to answer that question.

Yeah, I realized after I posted this, I was being a bit beligerant. My bad.

But is the Moderator equally likely to make a mistake about the mechanic, regardless of role? Imo, the answer is no.

I'd argue yes, merely because the mod has basically turned it into a vote count, and there's no evidence to suggest that he'll treat it other than a vote count, and we have evidence that he's messed up the vote count already, so unless you think that he's made a mistake with the people who's votes he's messed up (read, the three posts before mine), I'm not sure how you can keep saying this.

at the game's most basic level, at which the Mod will probably be looking at it, the default position of scum is to preserve themselves.

Wow, you're assuming a lot. But you're entire argument is based on several assumptions, so I guess there's nothing I can do.

Lol, so is your entire retort.

BM

[Battle Mage]

My one concern with this is picking a lynch method is this case is rather random, and we have 0 information on which one would be beneficial. I think we should pick a player we want to lynch and then pick the method we think will be most likely to kill them.

Actually, this makes ALOT of sense, for reasons some of you probably worked out ages ago, and which should not be divulged at this point.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I assume you missed my comment that this is the Theme Park, and day-roles do exist. Can you say 100% that there arent any in this game?

No I did not miss it. That's why I said several times that my argument only applied to this specific game and I do not think that scum have day roles, which is something I assume you missed.

No, i did not miss it. I implicitly replied to it in fact, with the retort that it is irrelevant WHO has the day roles, if they exist.

The insinuation that I don't care about my games just because I don't take the time to sit in front of my computer pre-game and make sure I know exactly who is who and who does what when it is not yet necessary to do so is a little insulting, and a little baffling.

Insulting, maybe. But from where i'm sat, if you don't want to commit to moderating a game, you shouldn't be moderating. It's not like im claiming to be the best mod since Mr Flay, but at least i can acknowledge that there are standards for modding, and if i was to fall short of them, i'd openly admit that. Baffling? I'm not really seeing it.

But whatever. I'm done with this argument right now. It's pointless, as far as I'm concerned we're shouting useless things, but my pride is the only thing making me continue.

The greatest irony, is that your pride is the only thing been expended by continuing to flog a dead horse.

BM

[Battle Mage]

i dont think discussing lynch methods is helpful at this point. In terms of tactics, Santos' play is far more logical than that of those voting for a weapon at the moment. Hence, my vote is on RBT.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Can someone remind me what was the role name of CC and armlx? I looked through the thread and couldn't find it.

I don't recall them saying either.

I think it's OK to say this now. I am a Neighbor. Santos and EJ were correct in their role-name claims.
This doesn't say whether or not we have any other night abilities, as armlx mentioned earlier.

I'm far from convinced over the Santos wagon. If he is scum, he is being bussed like stink, but if someone can really clarify the points that dont concern his claim, which has now been backed up, that'd be cool.

In the meantime, i'd like to see Santos choose his weapon in case he does face death today.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I also don't understand why my cooperation with everyone who asked me anything makes me scum. I am pretty sure I participated in everything that was asked of me (except maybe some minor details, which if you don't mind pointing out to me, I wouldn't mind answering).

Other than that, I seriously don't understand where you guys have concrete information fingering me as scum.

Actually, your co-operation is the one scummy thing you have done in my mind. I'm still waiting to hear what the others have.

also,

Vote: Gun

If this shizzle does go down, i'm backing Gun to do the job.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Actually, your co-operation is the one scummy thing you have done in my mind. I'm still waiting to hear what the others have.

This pertains no logic whatsoever, IMO, because I could have not cooperated at all and other people would have considered me scummy.

If you think that is illogical, then you are, quite frankly, an idiot.

Its pretty clear that if you do stuff just because tell you to, then you are behaving as scum would, because scum want to integrate, whereas townies wont go against their own opinion as easily.

I dont actually care why other people are voting for you- I, currently, am not. But, if you behave in a way which is clearly scummy, then i will be forced to.

If you think people are voting you for poor reasons-take it up with them-not me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm pretty sure the right choice is Rope, and BM's going back on his logic earlier about the mod mistake smells fishy.

Given what we know, the right choice seems to be Gun. Not that i'm by any means convinced Santos is scum, but if he is, i dont think the Rope will tie him down.
And really...Must you try and distort everything i say into a scumtell? All it does is encourage me to lurk, regardless of affiliation, because, as an IC, people take you seriously. When you constantly undermine me, not only do you allow scum to hide behind a smokescreen, but it makes all my games really monotonous, because i spend my entire time arguing over non-issues with you.

I'd also like to hear from Zazier, as to why he thinks 'Rope is the right choice', and Moses Le Fou, regarding his dodging the question. Armlx, for backing him up, and having even less excuse for not commenting on the Santos case, you can share the flak for this.

BM

BM

[Battle Mage]

Rope lynches scum, gun kills townies.

If Santos thought this at the beginning then why would he choose gun? That's why i think rope is the right choice for him.

But if you think gun is the right choice, then why is that?

Simple really. Now his choice REALLY MATTERS because he is quite likely to die today, he chose to vote for Rope. Hence, it is likely that, IF he is scum, Gun is his weakness. This logic will be WIFOM after today, so let's make the most of it.

As far as your logic goes, you assume that if Santos is scum, he would be telling the truth. Somehow, i find this doubtful. But, if you assume he is scum, the only motive he would have for that comment, would be to persuade the town to use ROPE, and NOT GUN. Hence, your argument further reinforces that Gun is the weapon most likely to kill him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, armlx, wouldn't he assume the town would choose the

opposite

of what he chose?
I'm sticking with Rope for now.

Not necessarily. Personally, i see him as having made 2 choices this game. 1 when it didnt matter, and 1 when it does. If he is scum, i dont credit him with the sense to have voted honestly when there was no need, and then gambitted when it really mattered. That would be really embarrassing if he helped string himself up.
It's like acting really protown under no pressure, and then when people get suspicious, throw a complete scum-spaz.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Well, the WIFOM is already present.
If Santos is scum, which would he choose? The method which lynch him or the method which doesn't lynch him? (just a question to think about)

I find the following question way better:
Would a townie random vote the method which he thinks will lynch townies?

To me, the answer is no.

Lol. You suppose it is more likely that a townie would SERIOUSLY vote the method which will lynch townies?

As for assuming he's telling the truth about this. If he's lying, he only made it worse for him. By telling that he thought gun kills townies, and voting this one at the random voting stage, he made himself scummier. Why would he lie to make himself scummier?

He lied. Full stop. His affiliation is a completely different issue. That he lied is a fact. If we assume he is scum, as is necessary for this discussion, then he HAS lied as scum, and screwed himself over. Why is this hard to understand?

Besides, the other scum team knows that he's scum during the night and can easily kill him.

Why would the other scumteam kill someone who is blatant lynchbait?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Waiting for a dead Santos.

This.

*facepalm*

NB: Empking is obvtown.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Anyone voting Santos is lazy.

Anyone voting Rope is a moron.

Need i say more?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Despite me and others asking on several occassions, there has been a blatant lack of explanation of the case on Santos. Until such reasoning is clarified, i see no reason to think Santos is scum.

I dont KNOW Empking is town, but he seems to be the only person who is really paying attention atm, so i guess we gotta hope...

Rope is blatantly a bad choice given SANTOS IS VOTING FOR IT NOW. -.-
This has already been discussed, and we've established why Gun is the weapon of choice.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If you don't think Santos is scum, then why is rope a bad choice?

Rope is blatantly a bad choice given SANTOS IS VOTING FOR IT NOW. -.-
This has already been discussed, and we've established why Gun is the weapon of choice.

Let's play a game. I'm thinking about a word, which is actually an abbrevation, consisting out of 5 letters starting with the W. What would it be?
Now that we're talking about it, BM who are the 'we' you are mentioning in that quote?

Oh HAI!

The decision on kill methods is based on the premise that Santos is scum. And making the assumption Santos is scum (as we HAVE TO) Rope is not going to kill him. It's completely illogical.

If you can cut the patronising bs, i might be inclined to take you more seriously. Hell, maybe you could follow up by actually answering my original question.

BM

[Battle Mage]

We have 2 claimed Mason pairs, right?

If there was to be symmetry, we would assume that each pair had 1 scumbag (presumably from different teams). Alternatively, 1 pair had 2 townies, and 1 pair has a scumbag from 2 different groups. I dont see how this makes Santos the play.

Can you elaborate more and/or expand into arguments that dont involve outguessing the mod?

BM

[Battle Mage]

There are two claimed neighbor pairs. Yes, I know this is outguessing the mod, but it seems, to me, the most logical.

I am a neighbo

u

rs with Santos.

armlx and CarnCarn are also neighbo

u

rs.

As armlx has already pointed out, this setup of neighbours is most likely symmetric. It just makes sense.

If Santos, for some obscure reason flips town, I'm assuming armlx and CarnCarn are scum - I doubt this though.

I'm quite sure one of armlx and CarnCarn are scum.

Somebody on the rope wagon should vote gun now.

*facepalm*

You do realise, that if Armlx and CarnCarn are BOTH scum, they are not 'neighbours', but 'mafia'?

From where i'm sat, the symmetry Armlx is referring to, applies to both groups. As such, if Santos comes up town, you will be lynched next by your own logic. To that end, why have you chosen to make YOURSELF the test subject pair and leave those two potential scumbags with 2 mislynches, when, if you are town, you GUARANTEE a better result by lynching them first.

But, kudos for good spelling.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I am not going to vote for a rope or gun at the moment because now it just seems to mess with other player's abilities to find scummy tells when they have become much too reliant on these abrasive lynch methods.

That.

Eh?

The whole weird Moses vote thing

Link/post number?

the non-belief of the neighbor claim on the invalidity of the role mechanic when that was his role.

Surely if you are accusing him of being a scum neighbour, this is a null tell, based on him not knowing his role properly?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Lol, i'm finding it highly amusing that simply because we have claimed mason-type roles, we have come to the consensus that we must decimate them immediately.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Surely if you are accusing him of being a scum neighbour, this is a null tell, based on him not knowing his role properly?

What are you talking about here?

You seemed to be suggesting that him not believing the neighbour role was scummy, when it is of course, is a null tell.

Eh?

Its a Santos quote.

umm, what about it?

I'll look at the post you linked me to and get back to you, thanks.

BM

[Battle Mage]

You seemed to be suggesting that him not believing the neighbour role was scummy, when it is of course, is a null tell.

Why though? It was after the fact I had fucked up on it, I'd assume everyone else would double check. I'm assuming he knew he was a "neighbor" at that point, so what reason does he have to suspect another similar claim?

So you think he knew he was a neighbour, and yet, argued that the role didn't exist? Even as scum, that makes no sense.

umm, what about it?

Did you read it? Actively not participating in an action that has strong scum tell implications?

Yes i read it. I wasn't participating either, because in the early stages, it made no sense for me to do so, so this isn't a scumtell.

BM

[Battle Mage]

why are you guys discussing something I already explained? They claimed to be uninformed masons so i wanted to speculate more on that before I claimed. Whats so hard to believe about that?

arent YOU an uninformed mason?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: Santos

STD and Armlx have me convinced. But STD-take your vote off Rope please!

BM

[Battle Mage]

STD.

I'm interested.

Unvote

Elaborate please.

This also has to do with how BM's vote swapped right after you said that.

Actually, i'd been thinking about it since STD's post on the last page. 497 doesnt show him in the best of lights, and i think the reason this wagon is stalling as opposed to disintegrating is that Santos is actually scum.
I have to say, it hasn't escaped my attention that you were pushing a Santos-lynch from off-wagon. But this is just an instinct call now.

BM

[Battle Mage]

This is the one game we've shared of late where i DON'T think you are scum. dont jinx it!

BM

[Battle Mage]

Rope lynches scum, gun kills townies.

If Santos thought this at the beginning then why would he choose gun? That's why i think rope is the right choice for him.

But if you think gun is the right choice, then why is that?

Simple really. Now his choice REALLY MATTERS because he is quite likely to die today, he chose to vote for Rope. Hence, it is likely that, IF he is scum, Gun is his weakness. This logic will be WIFOM after today, so let's make the most of it.

As far as your logic goes, you assume that if Santos is scum, he would be telling the truth. Somehow, i find this doubtful. But, if you assume he is scum, the only motive he would have for that comment, would be to persuade the town to use ROPE, and NOT GUN. Hence, your argument further reinforces that Gun is the weapon most likely to kill him.

BM

This one should suffice.

[Battle Mage]

I guess, but that basically amounts to giving scum a safeclaim. Not that that is anything strange in itself, but, for some reason I doubt it would be given that way.

I really don't think Santos is scum because his claim was the actual role name (capitalized N, spelled exactly the way it is in my own role), not like oEJo, who not only only choose not to capitalize, but also to use a different spelling. Even if he didn't think that is the way it should be spelled, why would he use something different from what the mod gave? Unless he didn't realize that Neighbor is a role name claim, and not just an ability.

I don't think scum would know the role name of their mason partner; it just seems unfair. More likely, the scum are just latching on to the "neighbor" term and trying to subtly pass it off as their own role name.

umm, surely if their role is 'Mafia Neighbor' then the fact the Neighbor is capitalised and spelt incorrectly shouldn't matter.

BM

[Battle Mage]

This setup discussion is just going way over my head. We need to either lynch someone who hasnt claimed neighbour, or go through every single neighbour until they are all dead.

BM

[Battle Mage]

knowing your own alignment?
How do you figure?

BM

[Battle Mage]

you think this game is comprised of more than 40% scum?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Why 'Neighbour'?

It's the Queen English, my dear.

This is correct. Even the Australians can get it right-so why not you??

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sorry, I'm English. :p

rofl. LaL!

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote Count:
Santos (6): ZazieR, Moses le fou, Save the Dragon, ZTR, hp [leaves], Sineish, Battle Mage
Save the Dragons (2): Riceballtail, Santos
Battle Mage (1): SocioPath
Riceballtail (1): Battle Mage
ZTR (1): Empking

Yay, i have 2 votes!

Unvote: Santos, Vote: RBT

Unvote: Gun

Lynch Method Vote Count:
Gun (10): hp [leaves], oEJo, ribwich, SocioPath, Battle Mage, armlx, Sineish, CarnCarn, Riceballtail, Santos
Rope (5): Save the Dragons, Empking, Moses le fou, ZazieR, ZTR


Not voting for a lynch method (1): Thunder

If a lynch were to happen without any change in lynch method votes, the

Rope

would be used.

WTF? 0.o

BM

Mistakes in vote count fixed, along with the tags in this post.

[Battle Mage]

argh, my tags suck...

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote: Santos, Vote: RBT
Unvote: Gun

So, you're going back to RBT. Why the sudden shifting? The Gun unvote is also interesting.

Getting cold feet about the stalling of the Santos wagon. Also curious to see what happens when it begins to lose more momentum.

Unvoted Gun because im no longer certain it is the right decision if Santos is scum. I cant see how Santos scum makes logical sense, given his weapon votes, unless he is just being completely random.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Well, Save the Dragons has seemed the most hostile towards me out of anyone, but it will probably be argued that its just an 'OMGUS' vote. However, he seemed to be leading most people to getting me lynched quick, fast and in a hurry. When CarnCarn made his points earlier, I agreed with those and probably will not change my vote at this time.

He goes back to me because he loves me so much.

Its comments like these that are pretty much waaaaay too ambiguous to ever know if he is a scum flirting with other players cutely, or a power role doing the same thing. He is definitely worth some paying attention to, IMO.

Lol. Ironic isnt it, that you commit your own fictional scumtell 2 posts after this?
I dont understand how you can conclude that those kind of comments can be power-role tells.... :S

BM

[Battle Mage]

does that mean Oejo gets a new neighbor?

BM

[Battle Mage]

His role was Neighbor. Not 'protown Neighbor'.

Vote; Armlx

BM

[Battle Mage]

His role was Neighbor. Not 'protown Neighbor'

Check the win condition
I doubt he was making it up/faking it. The mod said that he revealed "exactly" what he was. I am certain he was protown.

I mean, it implies that his neighbour was also town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

'You are a Neighbor, your neighbor is (oEJo), each night you may talk to him.

You do not know what alignment he is, only that you can talk to him.

During the day, you vote on who you think is a member of the one of the Mafia and whether the lynch should be by rope or by gun. You win when all the Sicilians and Corsicans are dead.'

How does this imply his neighbor is town?

My reading sucks.

That said, i dont see why OeJo is any more likely scum than the other claimed neighbours.

BM

[Battle Mage]

They have to know the role of somebody too before their kill will count. With oEJo they know exactly what his role is.

This is a very valid point. I hate setup speculation.

BM

[Battle Mage]

oEJo should have known which allignment Santos was as he could check his role with Santos's role. If you then still ask which allignment he was, I have some trouble believing that you as 'Neighbor' have the same role.
What do you think of oEJo, BM?

And he's probably the only neighbor who tried to lynch his partner and tried to protect himself with the possible symmetry in the neighbors.

If he was scum, why would he lynch his partner Day 1? Not counting on the win condition reveal?

Hmm, this is tempting.

Unvote

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm voting Rope because he was voting Gun under no pressure. I don't really have anything better to go on, as far as weapon goes.

that makes no sense. Just for that

Vote: Gun

.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If Oejo is town, he will post his PM now.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If Oejo is town, he will post his PM now.

No... why are you even suggesting this?

FoS: Battle Mage

His win condition doesnt really matter. He'll know that, for all intents and purposes, he was protown. The Mod apparently made the mistake of allowing the day to continue after the first modkill, thereby making it beneficial to the town to see townies modkilled, so we dont waste a lynch. Theoretically, we dont need to face a night until we hit scum.

It's short-sighted to think that this is not the optimum play for the town right now.

BM

Attempting to use modkills to get free lynches will ensure that any those modkills will end the day.

[Battle Mage]

I've already addressed your point above. Oejo has 48 hours to post his role pm, or my vote goes on.

BM

[Battle Mage]

oh and CarnCarn is obvscum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

He'll know that, for all intents and purposes, he was protown.

Except he wasn't......

It's like a player starting the game as scum and just playing the game as if they were town. They don't win at the end if the town wins....

It depends on perspective. In my mind, if i am town for the game, then get recruited into a cult and die, ill still consider myself town for that game. It's open to interpretation.

BM

[Battle Mage]

oh and CarnCarn is obvscum.

lol. Yes I'm scum for being the one to argue that Santos Neighbor claim was accurate even before the reveal and for pointing out the doubts about Neighbor and neighbor.

And yeah, I don't like the idea of using modkills to game the system, which the mod already addressed above (in your post 655).

I can read thanks. And no, thats not why you're scum. You're scum because of your edgy response to a potential game-breaking win for the town.

Post 661 doesnt make sense. Please explain Armlx.

BM

[Battle Mage]

You're scum because of your edgy response to a potential game-breaking win for the town.

I don't see it as game breaking because, if we keep going until we hit scum, then we've possibly killed a lot more townies than scum...

That's dumb. Let's say, our next 5 suspects as a town are going to be:

Santos
CarnCarn
Battle Mage
Armlx
Empking

If we play normally, assuming none of them are NKed, we will spend 5 days on them, and will also lose 5 other players per scumgroup. So we might lose the above, plus:

STD
RBT
ZTR
Sociopath
Ribwich
Moses Le Fou
OeJo
Zazier
Hp leaves
Sineish

Looks like it's pretty much game over for us then.

But, if we off those 5 in 1 day, we dont lose any townies overnight.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM it's a lot more complicated than that. By revealing, a player is modkilled, end of story, they lose, we lose a townie.
With NKs, there's really no predicting what can happen as there are decisions to be made about weapons, etc. (as there are with lynching as well).
Basically, there's no point to the reveal strategy since, if you are scum, there is no reason to reveal (since presumably you out your partners as well by doing so), might as well take a 50-50 chance on the lynch, and if you are town, you just lose AND you decrease the odds of winning for the rest of town anyway. So, even under your philosophy where you still consider yourself as town after being modkilled, there's no reason to reveal.

This is again, faulty logic. You dont decrease the odds of the town winning any more by being modkilled than by being lynched. If a lynch is inevitable, being modkilled is beneficial to the town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

i guess i should say 'was', given the mod has now cottoned onto how good a strategy this is, and has prevented it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

So you should be voting me now then, right BM?

Also, just FYI, even if the modkill didn't end the day, I wouldn't have posted my PM.

why?

and umm...why?

BM

[Battle Mage]

So you should be voting me now then, right BM?

Also, just FYI, even if the modkill didn't end the day, I wouldn't have posted my PM.

why?

and umm...why?

BM

It doesn't look like anyone else is actually agreeing with Battle Mage's plan, but if it actually gets used you can count on me abandoning this game. I'm not playing a game where people purposely break the rules to win. That ruins the entire fun of mafia.

That doesnt answer the first question. And ftr, it wasn't breaking the rules of Mafia. The whole point was, the Mod had allowed it. I dont feel like policy-lynching OeJo.

BM

[Battle Mage]

That doesnt answer the first question. And ftr, it wasn't breaking the rules of Mafia. The whole point was, the Mod had allowed it. I dont feel like policy-lynching OeJo.

Again, read the reason Santos was mod killed in the first place.

Hint: It was for breaking the rules.

Using those modkills in order to help the town, however, was not a breach of the rules in it's own right.

BM

[Battle Mage]

So we can expect you to post your role PM if you're town if you're ever almost lynched, BM?

Yup. Well, had the Mod not changed the rules.

BM

[Battle Mage]

FoS: BM

Desperate attempt to save scummate? Most likely.

Fail. If he was scum, he wouldnt have been able to quote his role. Duh.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm talking about oEJo here who is 99,6% scum ._.

Also you deserve to get lynched/modkilled for suggesting breaking the game's rules.

Needless to say i agree with Armlx regarding your second sentence. As far as the first goes, it's kind of irrelevant. If OeJo is scum, why would my behaviour be a defence of him, when, if he was my buddy, it'd be the final nail in the coffin?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I've already addressed your point above. Oejo has 48 hours to post his role pm, or my vote goes on.

BM

You should be voting me because you said you would?

FoS: BM

Yes, I'm resigned to my lynch at this stage. Yes, I'm fine with that. Yes, I'm town, I will still be doing as much to help the town as I can before I'm lynched.

As far as im aware it hasnt been 48 hours. Certainly it wasnt when you originally made your query.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also, what is BM's position on oEJo now that he knows he won't post his role PM?

I dont really have one. But my gut says hammering him is a bad idea.

BM

[Battle Mage]

why is Santos not on the lynch method count?

BM

[Battle Mage]

*shrug*

Vote: Santos

jk

Vote: OeJo

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm surprised i havent been bollocked for yesterday's f-up. I really screwed that up. That'll teach me to try and outwit the mod i guess

dunno where we're at now with this game, so i'll reread.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Hi. I really should have claimed this yesterday, sorry...
I'm undaykillable. I can't be lynched by the standard rope or gun methods.
I know I lied, but I'm prepared to prove my role today, so lynch away.

Vote: Oejo

Vote: Gun

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: oEJo
vote: gun

I still don't get why noone finds BM suspicious =/

its thanks to this guy i'm not dead yet.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@BM:

its thanks to this guy i'm not dead yet.

Explain please? How exactly did you screw up badly enough to die? I didn't see anything overly suspicious, so I would like to know what you saw.

I didnt want to hammer OeJo yesterday. It's been a long time since ive tried to toy with the rules like that. The idea was to make it LOOK like i hammered, without actually hammering, so we could:

A. Get a reaction out of OeJo
B. Get information out of the Mod

Sadly i didnt read the rules, and legitimately dropped the hammer. So yeh, it was a mistake, and im sorry.

And seeing as pretty much everyone thinks im town, there must be a reason i wasnt NKed last night. I first thought it was the hammer, but apparently not. Then it must be somebody who still thinks i am lynchable.

BM

[Battle Mage]

yup *nods*

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Kairyuu

BM

[Battle Mage]

@BM:

Vote: Kairyuu

You know, I had you pegged as a player who wasn't the type to throw a vote on without a word of reasoning. I expect to see your case against me in your next post. I won't ask you to remove your vote, but I can't exactly respond to your suspicions if they aren't stated, now can I?

You had me pegged wrong. But then, i dont know how you had me pegged ATALL, given we've never played together before. :S
You can't respond to suspicions that aren't posted. But it's always interesting to get a response to a vote before you explain it. If it makes you feel any better, your response isnt especially scummy, except that you sound like you're kissing my ass a bit.
That said, my vote should be pretty self-explanatory. Your precursors were scum, therefore you are scum. You've done nothing to suggest being protown to me, although i will acknowledge that you are playing much better than they did.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@armlx:

Ask me how many set ups I have seen. I expect the set up to be 4 power roles, 2 nillas, 4 town neighbors, 2 scum neighbors, 4 scum nillas.

Alrighty then. How many setups have you seen?

I can see where you get your setup theory mostly, but why 4 powers and 2 vanillas? And why wouldn't the scum have power roles in that situation? Isn't it unbalanced to have 6 scum with no real powers except for 2 quasi power roles, which are much more easily found than the vanilla scum against 4 town power roles and 4 quasi power roles? I suppose that it could be balanced out by putting in more scum like you are assuming, but in that situation I would think that the balance switches right over to the scum advantage. Can you explain it to me? I'm confused.

On first glance, i agreed with Kairyuu here, but given we have 2 scumgroups, that setup does seem fairly balanced.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@BM:

its thanks to this guy i'm not dead yet.

Explain please? How exactly did you screw up badly enough to die? I didn't see anything overly suspicious, so I would like to know what you saw.

I didnt want to hammer OeJo yesterday. It's been a long time since ive tried to toy with the rules like that. The idea was to make it LOOK like i hammered, without actually hammering, so we could:

A. Get a reaction out of OeJo
B. Get information out of the Mod

Sadly i didnt read the rules, and legitimately dropped the hammer. So yeh, it was a mistake, and im sorry.

And seeing as pretty much everyone thinks im town, there must be a reason i wasnt NKed last night. I first thought it was the hammer, but apparently not. Then it must be somebody who still thinks i am lynchable.

BM

This query struck me as scummy. Furthermore, PutaPuta was not a sitewide flaker. It's only here he found participation difficult. And i'm naturally suspicious of players who go overboard trying to look protown.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@moses:

I would think that if somebody had that big of a problem with another player (where that person would quit games the player was in), that person would not replace into a game where said player was playing.

I'm not necessarily saying that I buy BM's theory that Puta dropped from this game because he's scum, but Kairyuu's counter-theory that he dropped because of ZazieR doesn't hold much water.

First bit: Perhaps PutaPuta just didn't notice that ZazieR was in the game?

Second bit: Obviously my theory doesn't hold water. Neither does his. I can't tell you exactly why my predecessors flaked, because I am not them. Honestly, I don't care either. They posted nothing, and I jumped right in. I'm not going to apologize for their behavior, but I'm not going to let that be the only thing brought against me. Try actually judging

my

actions please.

lol if your theory doesnt hold water, why did you mention it? You're panicking. My vote stands.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Second, you say that you didn't know that quoting the first post would result in a kill. Why are you mentioning the first post, as a normal answer would be 'I didn't realize that if I quoted my role I could be killed.' Especially when you were the only one who mentioned that quoting the first post could get you killed.

This is voteworthy.

Unvote, Vote: Detspeed

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Gun

[Battle Mage]

Battlemage can I learn why you voted Gun?

Maybe after you tell me why you voted Rope.

BM