Choose Carefully Mafia: (Game Over)

[Empking]

are you sre its a mason?

[Battle Mage]

On the other hand, i really dont see abstaining as scummy at this point

Its the whole random vote principle. Random votes are fairly useless early on, but not random voting is anti-town for reasons I'm sure you have heard/understand.

I understand what you are referring to, but the fact is, votes for lynch are different to votes for HOW to lynch. Whilst townies have a vested interest in who they want to lynch, and can have opinions on who is scummier than who, voting for kill METHODs at this point is simply a shot in the dark for most of us. Except scum that is. Now, if no townies vote for weapons, scum will either be outted immediately, or, far more likely, they will also not vote for weapons, and thus a mechanic that can be exploited by the scum is removed from the equation.

I have a funny feeling Santos is telling the truth. Meh, these roleclaims are really bugging me now. In a game with 2 mafia's, 2 mason pairs is possible for symmetry, but them all being innocent seems unlikely.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Unvote: CarnCarn

If your brain cant keep track of 'Name: Role' for 16 people, then you have serious problems.

I would hope all mods would have the roles noted down and use their notes when processing night actions. Trying to do it all in your head is when mistakes happen.

As far as random-voting for a lynch method at the moment, I think stating that you have no preference right now is ok, as long as everyone votes one way or the other by the end of the day.

In Theme games, actions can happen during the day. That's why Mod's need to know their roles. It's ridiculous to suggest that when writing, distributing roles, and then recieving actions, or not, from them, the Moderator will not remember the setup to a greater or lesser degree.

BM

[Battle Mage]

also, i forgot to say, Sineish, if you can explain your last point, without help from Armlx, that'd be good. Why should we all vote by the end of the day?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

And at no point in the game did you have any idea who was who?

No, but the mod doesn't need to remember who has what role. Just have a record of who has what role.

QFT. Dude, the point is that a mod may not remember exactly which player has what role on D1, nor do they need to, because, it's...uh...day, and no one...uh...does anything.

Ugh. Look around buddy. This is the Theme Park. In case you haven't been here before, it's where the wacky games go. One's that can have roles with actions DURING THE DAY. *facepalm*

If they didnt KNOW, theyd always be unsure, and would thus, always be checking, until such a time as they LEARNT THE DAMN ROLES.

Uh...dude. The posts in question are 42 and 79 (after about 16 confirmation posts). There's no reason to check what role someone is just because they've posted.

There is no reason to check the roles atall, if you know them. Equally, if you dont know them, you should be constantly checking until you do, because otherwise, you can't effectively run the game.

It's not difficult to remember something fairly simple. If your brain cant keep track of 'Name: Role' for 16 people, then you have serious problems.

Uh...dude. I memorized the english equivalent to 125 spanish phrases in one afternoon, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to memorize the roles to all the players in Newbie 680 (game I'm modding).

Newbie games are somewhat different, as you will only get actions at night. But, if you dont know the roles by Night 1, you will have to check, and keep checking every night, until you learn them. Same principle, but to a lesser degree.

And your statement requires all three of my points to be true...can I assume you agree with the others and this is the only one you had problems with?

what?

So now that we've had this pointless argument, what's next?

The mod correcting a mistake is not a tell or an error at all. You're assuming that the mod has memorized the setup up, knows which scum group each player is off the top of his head, and that the mod would think that a scum player would automatically vote for the weapon that doesn't kill them.

The most important one is the last one, because technically the mod could look it up if he felt like it, but in order for BM's accusation to be true, all of those statements need to be correct, in that the mod must know which role a player is (the first two), and that he must make the mistake of assuming the scum would act a certain way.

See? When you put it like that, my logic seems pretty sound.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

Duh. But the whole point of this discussion is trying to answer that question.

2) The mod is equally likely to correct a mistake made by player regardless of role.

But is the Moderator equally likely to make a mistake about the mechanic, regardless of role? Imo, the answer is no.

3) There's no really good way for the scum to vote for a lynching weapon. Voting for the opposite one seems to make sense, but they can WIFOM by voting for their own, or they could abstain. You're accusation also requires voting for the opposite weapon to be the most desireable outcome for scum, which I'm not sure it is.

at the game's most basic level, at which the Mod will probably be looking at it, the default position of scum is to preserve themselves.

BM

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
Santos (5): ZazieR, Moses le fou, armlx, Save the Dragon, ZTR
Battle Mage (1): SocioPath
Riceballtail (1): Battle Mage
Moses le fou (1): Riceballtail
hp [leaves] (1): CarnCarn

Not voting (7): Thunder, Santos, hp [leaves], Sineish, christiano drago, Empking, oEJo

With 16 alive it is 9 to lynch.

Lynch Method Vote Count:
Gun (6): CarnCarn, ZazieR, hp [leaves], oEJo, christiano drago, ZTR
Rope (6): Save the Dragons, Riceballtail, armlx, Empking, Sineish, Moses le fou

Not voting for a lynch method (4): Battle Mage, Thunder, SocioPath, Santos

If a lynch were to happen without any change in lynch method votes, the Gun would be used.

[Empking]

Bird: You don't have me in the not voting area.

[christiano drago]

Or me, I unvoted too.

[bird1111]

Vote Count fixed.

[Save The Dragons]

It's still D1. No actions. I assume the mod has better things to do than sit in front of his computer and memorize which role goes with which person pregame.

I'm not saying he won't know some of them, but I am saying that he's going to remember that XXXX belongs to YYY scum group before even receiving a night choice from them.

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

And at no point in the game did you have any idea who was who?

On D1, when the lynch occurred, it behooved me to double check to make sure that if I said someone was townie, they were actually a townie. There were points in the game where I had no idea who was who. When I modded Dragon Mafia (before my untimely disappearance) I knew most of the roles, because most of them were silly. But I still probably would not have been able to know 100% of the roles had you quizzed me on them.

Ugh. Look around buddy. This is the Theme Park. In case you haven't been here before, it's where the wacky games go. One's that can have roles with actions DURING THE DAY. *facepalm*

Dear BattleMage,

The role in question, i.e., scum, is very unlikely to have a mechanic during the day. I am not arguing whether or not a mod in general knows the roles, but rather, in this specific situation, whether it is possible. Normally, I'd agree with you, but in this situation, on D1, with a fairly non-wacky set up, and with a mod who has been (no offence, mod) not really on top of the ball here, I think it's a little unreasonable to assume that he knew Santos was scum and that he knew which group.

Love, STD.

There is no reason to check the roles atall, if you know them. Equally, if you dont know them, you should be constantly checking until you do, because otherwise, you can't effectively run the game.

No. you don't need to know everyone's roles during the day, unless there are specific day mechanics, and then at that point, you only need to know the roles of those characters with day mechanics. And even then, they might be triggered, so if someone says, "DAYKILL: BABYJESUS" then the mod can even wake up and say "oh, let me check and see if I actually put a day kill in this game."

Newbie games are somewhat different, as you will only get actions at night. But, if you dont know the roles by Night 1, you will have to check, and keep checking every night, until you learn them. Same principle, but to a lesser degree.

You're right. However the post in question happened on D1 in a game that started with day.

See? When you put it like that, my logic seems pretty sound.

Perhaps you should read that again.

I'm basically saying "If X and Y and Z are true, then C."

My argument is that NONE of those are true. You're arguing that X and Y are true, but you haven't said anything about Z.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

Duh. But the whole point of this discussion is trying to answer that question.

Yeah, I realized after I posted this, I was being a bit beligerant. My bad.

But is the Moderator equally likely to make a mistake about the mechanic, regardless of role? Imo, the answer is no.

I'd argue yes, merely because the mod has basically turned it into a vote count, and there's no evidence to suggest that he'll treat it other than a vote count, and we have evidence that he's messed up the vote count already, so unless you think that he's made a mistake with the people who's votes he's messed up (read, the three posts before mine), I'm not sure how you can keep saying this.

at the game's most basic level, at which the Mod will probably be looking at it, the default position of scum is to preserve themselves.

Wow, you're assuming a lot. But you're entire argument is based on several assumptions, so I guess there's nothing I can do.

[Save The Dragons]

tl,dr; Most of what you're saying doesn't apply to this situation, because there's been no night, the mod's made mistakes, and you're assuming a lot for the mod to guess what the scum's going to do.

You know what, you should probably just post something to the effect of "I don't agree," so we can move on with our lives. Or you can post stuff, and if there's nothing specific that I cannot leave uncommented on, I'll probably look elsewhere for suspicion.

Unless you think this argument is going to help each other determine our alignments (which I don't think it will), then we should probably stop.

[CarnCarn]

I don't see why committing to a lynch method would be a bad idea now. In fact I think it would help if we just choose one first and stuck to it. If the person we elect for the lynch doesn't end up getting killed, they are most likely going to be scum of the opposite faction. Apparently there are other ways for a lynch to fail, according to the mod, but this is probably the most likely scenario.
Can we get back to this plz?

[Save The Dragons]

My one concern with this is picking a lynch method is this case is rather random, and we have 0 information on which one would be beneficial. I think we should pick a player we want to lynch and then pick the method we think will be most likely to kill them.

[CarnCarn]

STD, I don't think the order really matters that much because if we lynch a scum immune to the method, then it will be obvious. Unless it becomes clear that someone is scum of a definate group, I don't see how it matters which order we settle on method and player.

[Save The Dragons]

My point is that if we decide we want to lynch Player X, we can go back and say, "Player X vote rope right off the bat. Player X felt that it was not very important to talk about voting weapons. Player X chastised player Y for voting gun."

I agree though, that doesn't really matter much, and immunity is going to tell us more.

[Santos]

STD, I don't think the order really matters that much because if we lynch a scum immune to the method, then it will be obvious. Unless it becomes clear that someone is scum of a definate group, I don't see how it matters which order we settle on method and player.

This is about the most legitimate and concrete thing I have seen this entire thread.

[Battle Mage]

It's still D1. No actions. I assume the mod has better things to do than sit in front of his computer and memorize which role goes with which person pregame.

I assume you missed my comment that this is the Theme Park, and day-roles do exist. Can you say 100% that there arent any in this game?

I'm not saying he won't know some of them, but I am saying that he's going to remember that XXXX belongs to YYY scum group before even receiving a night choice from them.

lol, the funny thing is, you are now speculating as much as me. I guess it's a matter of opinion. And in my opinion, the Mod will know the roles, and a mistake could be telling. Case closed.

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

And at no point in the game did you have any idea who was who?

On D1, when the lynch occurred, it behooved me to double check to make sure that if I said someone was townie, they were actually a townie. There were points in the game where I had no idea who was who. When I modded Dragon Mafia (before my untimely disappearance) I knew most of the roles, because most of them were silly. But I still probably would not have been able to know 100% of the roles had you quizzed me on them.

As long as you have an idea of who has an ability, and who doesnt, who is scum and who is town, you should be ok.

Ugh. Look around buddy. This is the Theme Park. In case you haven't been here before, it's where the wacky games go. One's that can have roles with actions DURING THE DAY. *facepalm*

Dear BattleMage,

The role in question, i.e., scum, is very unlikely to have a mechanic during the day. I am not arguing whether or not a mod in general knows the roles, but rather, in this specific situation, whether it is possible. Normally, I'd agree with you, but in this situation, on D1, with a fairly non-wacky set up, and with a mod who has been (no offence, mod) not really on top of the ball here, I think it's a little unreasonable to assume that he knew Santos was scum and that he knew which group.

Love, STD.

Dearest STD,

Scum are not the only roles which can have day actions. Even protown roles with day actions might encourage the mod to KNOW THE SETUP. This is perhaps the simplest of truths. Is this game an open-setup?
Perhaps it is BECAUSE the Mod is not 'on top of the ball' that he might accidentally make an assumption which could reveal information about the setup. Maybe i'm being naive, but i'm going to assume that people who care about a game, will pay attention to who gets what role. Maybe you aren't the pioneer of moderation on MS atm. People who don't care about a game, shouldn't run it, because if the Mod doesnt care, why should the players?

Lots of love and KISSES,

Battle Mage.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

Duh. But the whole point of this discussion is trying to answer that question.

Yeah, I realized after I posted this, I was being a bit beligerant. My bad.

But is the Moderator equally likely to make a mistake about the mechanic, regardless of role? Imo, the answer is no.

I'd argue yes, merely because the mod has basically turned it into a vote count, and there's no evidence to suggest that he'll treat it other than a vote count, and we have evidence that he's messed up the vote count already, so unless you think that he's made a mistake with the people who's votes he's messed up (read, the three posts before mine), I'm not sure how you can keep saying this.

at the game's most basic level, at which the Mod will probably be looking at it, the default position of scum is to preserve themselves.

Wow, you're assuming a lot. But you're entire argument is based on several assumptions, so I guess there's nothing I can do.

Lol, so is your entire retort.

BM

[armlx]

why are you begging for my mason to come out?

Answer the question.

Are you or are you not also an unconfirmed mason?

[Battle Mage]

My one concern with this is picking a lynch method is this case is rather random, and we have 0 information on which one would be beneficial. I think we should pick a player we want to lynch and then pick the method we think will be most likely to kill them.

Actually, this makes ALOT of sense, for reasons some of you probably worked out ages ago, and which should not be divulged at this point.

BM

[bird1111]

Prodding oEJo and ZazieR

[Santos]

Are you or are you not also an unconfirmed mason?

I'm happy to answer because I have no problem answering whatever you have to inquire about:

I am a mason as described by you two people earlier, but why should I ask for him to come out? Yes, at this juncture it means I am unconfirmed, but why the hell should I appease just you that is hammering me most about it?

[CarnCarn]

I am a mason as described by you two people earlier, but why should I ask for him to come out? Yes, at this juncture it means I am unconfirmed, but why the hell should I appease just you that is hammering me most about it?

I'm not sure, actually. armlx's theory of the symmetrical town/scum pairings is interesting, and this info could help town down the line. But it seems like it would help scum right away, if it's true.

[Save The Dragons]

I assume you missed my comment that this is the Theme Park, and day-roles do exist. Can you say 100% that there arent any in this game?

No I did not miss it. That's why I said several times that my argument only applied to this specific game and I do not think that scum have day roles, which is something I assume you missed.

The insinuation that I don't care about my games just because I don't take the time to sit in front of my computer pre-game and make sure I know exactly who is who and who does what when it is not yet necessary to do so is a little insulting, and a little baffling.

But whatever. I'm done with this argument right now. It's pointless, as far as I'm concerned we're shouting useless things, but my pride is the only thing making me continue.

[Battle Mage]

I assume you missed my comment that this is the Theme Park, and day-roles do exist. Can you say 100% that there arent any in this game?

No I did not miss it. That's why I said several times that my argument only applied to this specific game and I do not think that scum have day roles, which is something I assume you missed.

No, i did not miss it. I implicitly replied to it in fact, with the retort that it is irrelevant WHO has the day roles, if they exist.

The insinuation that I don't care about my games just because I don't take the time to sit in front of my computer pre-game and make sure I know exactly who is who and who does what when it is not yet necessary to do so is a little insulting, and a little baffling.

Insulting, maybe. But from where i'm sat, if you don't want to commit to moderating a game, you shouldn't be moderating. It's not like im claiming to be the best mod since Mr Flay, but at least i can acknowledge that there are standards for modding, and if i was to fall short of them, i'd openly admit that. Baffling? I'm not really seeing it.

But whatever. I'm done with this argument right now. It's pointless, as far as I'm concerned we're shouting useless things, but my pride is the only thing making me continue.

The greatest irony, is that your pride is the only thing been expended by continuing to flog a dead horse.

BM

[bird1111]

Bumping the Vote Count onto the next page.