Open 792: Masons and Monks GAME OVER

[davesaz]

A50 and N_M both alluding to things that aren't in the setup. Surprised I am not.
Would A50 try to explicitly towntell? As which alignment?

Going with "plus" this game I'll VOTE: Dunnstral

[davesaz]

@dave: Where did I towntell??

If I answer that I'll be providing you with wool to pull over my eyes.

[davesaz]

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

[davesaz]

Newb scum response to being voted

Did you assume newb based on join date, or look up player history?

[davesaz]

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

I don't particularly like this post from Davesaz he is hedging a ton in this post.
I think either of these could be described as scum indicative but he is choosing not to for no real reason.

Because you hide behind the anonymity of an alt I don't know if you know me or not.
Accuracy is important in this game. Anyone who has seen me play knows I approach every early game this way.

Notscience can have a short pass on this since it has almost certainly been years since we have played.

[davesaz]

2 down 2 to go~

What's this mean?

[davesaz]

So town hedge but they leave discussion open to say "why do you think that". But the post I quoted basically closes that off. It's just straight hedging to state thoughts without anyone being able to claim you actually have any down the line I guess?

The way I do this is to state what I think, and see what questions or conversation comes from it.

[davesaz]

2 down 2 to go~

What's this mean?

scum

Uh, it doesn't mean anything unless you say something about who the 2 are. Even that says very little unless you also give some kind of reasoning.

[davesaz]

You said you did it for conversation but your post offers nothing in terms of that. It's closed off in a way that I feel stops it all together. Idk if you wanted to create conversation you would be a bit more firm and state reservations.

Mixed feelings on 58. Seems intended to make progress, but not terribly inspiring.
Very mixed feelings on 60. That's a lot of explanation. Being clear, or appearing to be clear?

See that question mark?
It's an invitation for conversation.
How you can get "closed off" from that is just beyond understanding for me.
We're having a conversation about it. How can you think it's closed off?

[davesaz]

VOTE: dramonic
We've had this conversation before. Talk or get eliminated.

[davesaz]

You didn't commit to any opinions

Why would I want to commit to an opinion that I don't have?
This is how I bring attention to things that I don't have opinions on, for the express purpose of getting an opinion.

I think the way you question it is town motivated, but your approach to what it means is just wrong.

[davesaz]

Elements vote was worst of all but he's easy to solve so VOTE: dramonc

I am replying to you twice since this is more open ended for anyone to reply.

I think the worst vote by a good margin is AGars initial vote. At this point he has triple downed on literally nothing despite it not giving him a reaction.

If he believes his read he is probably just scum making a show out of nothing to look town regardless of my alignment. Or he is pushing a shit read to look like he is doing something when he plans on backing down.

If it's a reaction test which was my assumption at first. Him not backing down feels more like posturing then something actually trying to be productive.
I guess if he is doing a reaction test he got a reaction now but I think it's overdue to be his only focus in the thread.

Making an assumption that this entire post is about AGar, past the first sentence.
The most noticeable thing about AGar is 3 posts. You seem to be complaining about lack of followup, but it's lack of anything. I think we'll need to see what comes next to be able to make anything of it.

While I'm on this topic (AGar's vote flowed from 41), please explain how you can read anyone's alignment in 1 essentially empty post. Trying not to be a hypocrite here since I say I'm able to tell that A50 is probably town already, but that is based on multiple posts that are bigger than a single sentence.

[davesaz]

I mean... Isn't that the exact shit you're accusing dave of? Posting noncommittal shit that can just be handwaved away?

Because my post was intended to be a shit post. Dave's wasn't.

I think that's clearly different?

Actually, that moves you down a bit. Not enough to change the read.
It's explicitly bad for town to shit post, in terms of game solving. Since I don't really participate (much) in the social aspect I take a dim view of posting that isn't meant to be taken at face value.

[davesaz]

I mean... Isn't that the exact shit you're accusing dave of? Posting noncommittal shit that can just be handwaved away?

Because my post was intended to be a shit post. Dave's wasn't.

I think that's clearly different?

None of your posts look like shit posts to me

She's referring to 41.

[davesaz]

So am I not allowed to criticize lane wagons?

lane isn't even in this game (and hasn't been on MS for almost 2 years now), so he could not have been responsible for the wagon on Hayasaka

I thought traffic lane or swim lane for a bit when reading that post.
Forgot there was a player named lane.

[davesaz]

73

The first vote count with the l-2 wagon. Brass has great vote counts that show you the last vote add by a specific player. So you can follow the links to each of the constituents of the hayasaka wagons.

We have-
Meta
Bringing something up and not articulating
Newb scum
Definitely doesn’t like axolotls
“Game is hard”

Which is such a broad rainbow of reasons it doesn’t really seem credible. Hence my confusion.

I agree that looking at this is a good idea.
What's your take on those 5 players?
I'm not keeping track yet, it's too early for that, so I'll have to look. If I don't get hammered by work I'll try to do that today.

[davesaz]

Maybe I don't need to look other than more closely reading AGar.
Dunnstral, AGar, SirCakez, Elements, dramonic
Historically hard for me to read, need to reread other than knowing the posting schedule is intermittent, very weak town, weak scum, insufficient data null.

In a 2v2 multiball game I would think at most 2 scum from different teams, and just one scum is more likely. Really cautious scum might not be on there at all.
If Hayasaka is scum (it is MB after all so probing questions aren't enough to clear anyone) then later unsupported votes could be scum catching a bus.

[davesaz]

On the one hand, it's slow enough that keeping up isn't an issue.
On the other hand, too many are still at a dead null right now from lack of content.
Cakez downgrade to null.
N_M weak scum.
Elements went from passively mediocre to actively mediocre.
Xayah is definitely not meeting proficiency standards but I give allowance to the possibility of RL interference.

[davesaz]

It's not hard to keep up with this game. The hard part is finding stuff I consider of value.

It isn’t a total lack though.

[davesaz]

Forgot to ask how what you said is anything different than the first two lines of mine.

[davesaz]

baffled as to why nobody is voting with me, even if elements is town

What was your reason? I think I know, but want to hear it from you.

[davesaz]

Let's hope it picks up after everyone gets night killed

Very odd thing to say. What are you thinking here?

[davesaz]

I'd like a little more help in my crusade against people who refuse to talk about anything useful to the game.

[davesaz]

not science wagon is pretty terrible and probably scum led

I agree with the pretty terrible part but doubt it's scum led.

[davesaz]

I'd like a little more help in my crusade against people who refuse to talk about anything useful to the game.

What IS useful in a game like this? (Serious question)

Wagoning people, and in particular big wagons, to see what happens.

VOTE: Malakittens
Guess I'd better take my own advice, time's ticking.

[davesaz]

How are you thinking we should go about solving?

[davesaz]

Low hanging fruit.
Unfortunately that's the only thing this game has right now.

[davesaz]

I feel like that kind of attitude is part of why the game is dead. Too few people are interested in pushing non-contributors.

[davesaz]

strange stance given the only solid wagon we've had is on the only player who hasn't voted

What?

It’s a pretty accurate stance.

accurate, but idk seems lamenty given the timing of his jump onto mala's wagon

All you need to do to cure yourself of looking at me wrongly is to look at what I was doing before that.

[davesaz]

Eh, pushing non-contributors is one of my regular things regardless of gamestate. Right now seeing how people react to the "-2"^* is almost the only thing we have going.
I'm generally against eliminating^* lurkers as lurkers if there is a better choice, but there's nothing wrong with trying to spark someone to action.

^*Hard to remember to scrub posts for terminology.

[davesaz]

Yeah I meant 337 to be about the general case and took 338 as the same.

[davesaz]

Did you really quote your predecessor THRICE and tried to manufacture a read on them??

Yes I noticed this immediately.

[davesaz]

Just don’t, bad composition, don’t see the reason for her to be a leading wagon

Has she done anything particularly town?

[davesaz]

Just don’t, bad composition, don’t see the reason for her to be a leading wagon

Has she done anything particularly town?

That’s not how this game works

Why do you say that?

[davesaz]

Just because people could be LHF doesn't mean they can't get a scum role PM. How are people reading notsci? If this was single ball I'd be TRing them rn

I guess this is two separate thoughts, right?
The reason to avoid LHF is typically because little is learned from it, not because it lacks active scumminess.

I think notsci is town, but agree that MB is a factor so obv scumhunting doesn't automatically mean lock town.
I wouldn't approve of eliminating an obvious scumhunter early game. Someone who is active but not scumhunting is a better choice.

[davesaz]

How do you feel about Ele?

Elements is always a tough one for me because it's usually hard to separate out the useful stuff from everything else.
I think his recent questions are pretty good, and it's not just because they're about someone else's scumread on me.

[davesaz]

What fence are you referring to? There is a difference between town and lock town but it isn't a fence.

[davesaz]

@dramonic squeezing your read harder isn't going to make me flip scum.
You could perhaps comment on someone else. If you're town it works a lot better to work with your team.

[davesaz]

For everyone who doesn't bother to read, this list is based solely on weather or not people have claimed to be town.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't see any real correlation between what you claimed to be the reason and the list itself.

[davesaz]

nobody can even explain the reason for their vote other than A50's OMGUS so it seems pretty crap to me

Do you have any reads supported by evidence?

[davesaz]

Have I slept through a site meta change where it’s now town to go through day 1 blatantly not trying to get reads?

[davesaz]

My comment is more about the general case than specific tbh. You just happened to be the most recent example. Try challenging people on their stances even where you agree if necessary.

[davesaz]

I'm the town leader and you're full of bullshit.

[davesaz]

AGar attempting to give me shit is very insulting when nobody has been producing content of any worth.
This whole "What are your thoughts on X? Oh hey I agree" routine yall have been spinning bores the every living shit out of me and holds little to no value to netting us scum. The point of the game is not to shoot the breeze with your pals.

You are flat out wrong to say that nobody has been providing content of any worth.

The discussion

is

the content. Knowing who you agree with / disagree with and

why

is the

only thing of value

that can be produced d1. In fact it's really the only thing of value before the first scum flip, other than perhaps voting records. For which we need people to vote in wagons big enough to be AI. And for the votes to be worthwhile, with at least minimalist reasons.

I'm doing this, and you are not. Get with the program please.

[davesaz]

Fully from memory, in player list order. Gaps are for separating 1-liners from more extensive impressions, not for read grouping:

Almost50 - I think he's town based on a meta factor that I'm unwilling to let him know what it is
AGar - Seems to have opinions which are reasonable based on things in the thread

Malakittens - Claims to have RL balance issue, which is something I wouldn't doubt. Seems to be more in touch and less catching up than RL balance issues would imply. If she's unwilling / unable to push someone that she normally would via meta that could be a sign that she's scum with nothing to push. I don't know her meta well enough to know what she would push.

dramonic - Focus within the thread is a little narrow, but it fits what I know about his meta. Don't remember if I have seen him as scum and not inclined to go digging just yet.

The Bulge - Conversations seem to be town motivated
SirCakez - Extremely typical meta wise. Bad early takes don't make him scum by themselves. I'll need to read again with more context.
notscience - Conversations seem to be town motivated
Elements - I don't know if scum!Elements has the chops to be so brazenly clueless. Fits with meta, don't know if I have seen a scum game.

Xayah - Falling far below expectations but I can't remember if she has given a RL in this game. Perhaps a bit suspicious?
davesaz - Pretty obviously town if I don't mind saying so myself
Dunnstral - Very standard for meta, very unreadable, very null
InnocentVillager

Hayasaka

- If there weren't a join date to prove it wrong, I'd swear this is a new player. Seems rather lost and inconsistent. I had no meta on predecessor despite her apparently being well known to others in the player list. Feels a little suspicious.

Not_Mafia - Very standard for meta, perhaps slightly under performing. In someone with more mainstream meta I'd scum read this pretty hard.

One general comment trend that I'll go along with, there isn't enough overt scumminess in this game. It leaves me with no genuine gut scum reads and that's not good.

[davesaz]

Seems to be more in touch and less catching up than RL balance issues would imply.

That's just not okay.

Do you mean what I wrote is wrong, or that the thing I observed is scummy? I’m voting her still.

[davesaz]

I mean that's not an okay avenue of questioning. It's sort of akin to tell someone they don't seem affected enough by RL stuff.

I agree with part of what you're saying. I may have failed to get across the point that I don't (and never) question statements about RL. I'm often highly affected by RL myself and get offended if someone doesn't take my comments about RL at face value.

I think it's still valid to comment about what people with RL conflicts do when they are here. There have been times when people made such comments about my posting and I had to step back from thinking it was a comment about RL and realize it was about the content.

So, for the record that part of my thoughts about Mala are about the content when she's here. She seems aware about what's going on but unusually quiet regarding doing anything about it.

[davesaz]

Do you find anything town about that readlist? like 80% of it is meta, which is the definition of an empty read.

Incorrect again. Neither 80% meta, nor is meta empty.

[davesaz]

Ele/Mala/NM/Dramonic seem to be the only people I'd vote d1 here

I'm town

I see you saying it, but I don't see you walking the walk.

[davesaz]

Kind of a tangent cuz what's happening here is that Dave is just saying "meta town" on, well... everyone... to avoid doing anything substantial in this game.

Once again, wrong. I'm saying this only about A50, and specifically because I don't want him to know how I read him. Try taking off the filter you're putting on my posts and actually reading the content starting from no assumptions.

[davesaz]

Plus if his read is right (and you believe it to be so) he's the person on top of the 'you should kill' list for w/e scum team isn't on it

im sorry, i don't understand english can you rephrase this or you can keep lurking w/e all good

If his wolf/scumread is correct you'd obvious want him dead cause he'd be townread. And if he's also a scum/wolf that's really bad.

Are you really trying to argue that scum in MB don't scumhunt, or at least they don't try to scumhunt accurately?

[davesaz]

Ooh, I have a followup question regarding the last 2 posts but I'll wait a bit to see if the conversation progresses.

[davesaz]

Kind of a tangent cuz what's happening here is that Dave is just saying "meta town" on, well... everyone... to avoid doing anything substantial in this game.

Once again, wrong. I'm saying this only about A50, and specifically because I don't want him to know how I read him. Try taking off the filter you're putting on my posts and actually reading the content starting from no assumptions.

Fully from memory, in player list order. Gaps are for separating 1-liners from more extensive impressions, not for read grouping:

Almost50 - I think he's town based on a meta factor that I'm unwilling to let him know what it is
AGar - Seems to have opinions which are reasonable based on things in the thread

Malakittens - Claims to have RL balance issue, which is something I wouldn't doubt. Seems to be more in touch and less catching up than RL balance issues would imply. If she's unwilling / unable to push someone that she normally would via meta that could be a sign that she's scum with nothing to push. I don't know her meta well enough to know what she would push.

dramonic - Focus within the thread is a little narrow, but it fits what I know about his meta. Don't remember if I have seen him as scum and not inclined to go digging just yet.

The Bulge - Conversations seem to be town motivated
SirCakez - Extremely typical meta wise. Bad early takes don't make him scum by themselves. I'll need to read again with more context.
notscience - Conversations seem to be town motivated
Elements - I don't know if scum!Elements has the chops to be so brazenly clueless. Fits with meta, don't know if I have seen a scum game.

Xayah - Falling far below expectations but I can't remember if she has given a RL in this game. Perhaps a bit suspicious?
davesaz - Pretty obviously town if I don't mind saying so myself
Dunnstral - Very standard for meta, very unreadable, very null
InnocentVillager

Hayasaka

- If there weren't a join date to prove it wrong, I'd swear this is a new player. Seems rather lost and inconsistent. I had no meta on predecessor despite her apparently being well known to others in the player list. Feels a little suspicious.

Not_Mafia - Very standard for meta, perhaps slightly under performing. In someone with more mainstream meta I'd scum read this pretty hard.

One general comment trend that I'll go along with, there isn't enough overt scumminess in this game. It leaves me with no genuine gut scum reads and that's not good.

You are using meta as your argument for NM, Dunn, Xayah, Elements, Cakez, myself and Almost.

I'll take those in the order you mentioned them. You said I was using meta to

town read

people.
N_M is not stated as a town read. Technically I didn't give a read on N_M at all.
Dunn is null. Not a town read.
Xayah is slightly suspicious. Doesn't sound like a town read to me.
Elements is a clueless read, thus probably not scum. The meta part of that read merely says that it fits, not that it's the basis.
Cakez is a "must read again" which in DaveSpeak means null. Not a town read.
I technically don't give a read on you. I say what you're doing matches what I know about your meta.
A50 I've already covered at least 3 times.

So you're 0 for 6 saying that I'm using meta

to townread

on people other than A50. Not at all a good look.

[davesaz]

So meta null instead of meta town

Well, it could be just scum and skip the meta if you'd like.
I sense a complete lack of contribution to the game from you for about 4 days or so and mostly self interest before that.
Tell me why you shouldn't be invited to be our first departure.

[davesaz]

...So what you're saying is that you posted a full readlist that's mostly just "these people play like I've seen them play before".
That might actually be worse than I thought.

Given it's significantly more than most people are doing, I'd say you're barking up (or is that tweeting down) the wrong tree pal.

[davesaz]

It's so refreshing to have every single player's iso be a single page more than half the way through day 1 I'm reluctant to break the spell.
Unfortunately I need to point out there are less than 5 days left and most people in the game seem to have very few reads.

[davesaz]

Tell me why you shouldn't be invited to be our first departure.

Dunnstral - Very standard for meta, very unreadable, very null

because of this

Threatening someone to make them talk is less effective when the threat gets defused.

[davesaz]

I am voting a scumread, silly. It's weak like almost all my D1 reads are in every game.
All of my votes have been on scumreads at the time I made them except for the RVS.
What position are you trying to get me to take? I don't make shit up, no uber strong scumread is going to just poof out of nowhere.
When I see it then you'll know it. Until someone is actually doing scummy things, not gonna happen.
I'm certainly not like RC who will just declare someone confscum for no real reason and tunnel them into oblivion.
I'm playing how I play, nothing you can do is going to make me change, so if you don't like it just get used to not liking it.

I'd be willing to work with the people I think are town to eliminate their scumreads who aren't themselves people I think are town.

[davesaz]

most people in the game seem to have very few reads.

you are including yourself in this yes?

No, I have a full set of reads. Some of them are null.
I don't have a clue what most people's reads are on most players. Because nobody other than me is taking a position (with reasons) on more than 1-2 other players.

[davesaz]

I'd be willing to work with the people I think are town to eliminate their scumreads who aren't themselves people I think are town.

ok... who are the people who you think are town?

AGar, A50, notscience, Bulge

[davesaz]

Would not yeet {Dram/A50/IV/Xayah/notty}

Please explain IV.
I have to look at Xayah to see if my read needs to be updated.

[davesaz]

1) I was trying to get some form of actually readable stuff in this game and thought people would react to an atrocious list like that. It was not a read list.

People did react to it. Perhaps not as strong as what you expected, and you didn't follow up to the reactions to try to discern what they meant for alignment.

[davesaz]

@IV examples of AGar townposts IMO.

Mala's apathy is always NAI because she's always swamped so you need to read her off of what is there

What I've read is not apathy, but a consistent effort to come in here and tell us how busy she is while still being cognizant of what's going on (294 is awareness of how far out deadline is and the tonal shift to more aggressive moves from other players. 425 shows awareness of IV's reads and the subsequent discussion about his peculiar Haya statement.) Someone can be busy and still choose to not fully engage when they do appear.

I’ve played with mala since she’s been back and she was town and she feels different here.

Honestly being town in a multi ball game like this is a death sentence. It’s actually easier to draw scum and win, whereas, town majority of the time they don’t ever win a multiball game. That doesn’t help my motivation much either. I looked at the stats and town hasn’t won this setup yet

happy scumday dave.
You might be scum, but at least ya get a cake.

Let's play a game: What do these posts have in common?

Both made by scum faking apathy?

This is the gist of it, yes.

Neither of those are posts completely detached in a "hey I'll get to this soon," manner. Both of them comment on something game related but are a) severely fucking lacking and b) don't actually provide anything besides noise.

[davesaz]

We could strike a blow for good posting and eliminate one of them. Not_Mafia perhaps?

[davesaz]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[davesaz]

If at some point you want my answer to that I'll be happy to answer. I'll tell you what gets a strong reaction too.

[davesaz]

How does anyone not see Dave screaming scum here is beyond me.

I'm very conflicted on this.
It's such a wrong viewpoint that I flat out can't understand how anyone could come to this conclusion.
What dramonic is trying to say is that I'm not giving opinions, which is patently false.
Furthermore even if it were true, that would be town for me.
There are games I go entire phases without voting because nothing screams scum at me and the wagons are on people I hard TR.
Take a look at this post for my thoughts on nuanced posting.

I've been making a conscious effort for a year or more to explicitly NOT scumread people who scumread me for bad reasons.
I'm considering dropping that stance in this game.

[davesaz]

Also, if you're really town.. beware NOT to provide a readlist.

Is this intended to be a general statement or special purpose?
If it's general I'd be concerned that it gives scum an excuse to not provide readlists either.
Even in the specific case that I can think of for a setup like this there are ways for a skilled player to avoid the pitfall.

[davesaz]

Take it easy with those stretches, you'll hurt yourself.

[davesaz]

I'm not impressed with it either. I just like the alternatives less.

Mala gives me a weak town feeling, basically the opposite of how ETL (also town) reacted to being wagoned in SIR.
A50 has the tell that I'm not revealing in the town column, but it's weakening a little in middle day. His late day play goes a smidge back to the town side.
Cakez I'm still a strong null on. I certainly won't fight it and would go there if it got within a couple of elimination.

[davesaz]

[davesaz]

^ was meant to be after dramonic

[davesaz]

I don't think on wagon / off wagon is the most effective way of sorting people. It is a valid thing to consider.
I've been a little engrossed with work so have not paid attention to who other than A50 is making references to it.

[davesaz]

I don't think Dramonic is doing anything other than tunneling me. I no longer think it's town. Show me I'm wrong.

I want to re-read Elements to find out if the impression he's a follower is correct.

A50 dropped another towntell. Thinking he's right about a mechanical approach and lecturing people who don't follow it is something I've seen him do a lot as town and it has been missing from his scumgames that I've seen. It doesn't matter if the mechanics he's advocating are right or not. When he goes there it's town and when he's scum he typically doesn't go there.

Really need to see more material from Xayah to be able to read her reliably, but I feel this could be MB-scum her.

VOTE: Xayah

[davesaz]

this will look so nice as a counterwagon oooou~

It will be hilarious if this is openwolf.

[davesaz]

Elements replaced in to that game.

[davesaz]

So I was gonna check if Elements was coached in that game A50 linked, and there wasn't a mafia pt.
That game changes my Elements meta quite a bit. It's going to take a while to assimilate, but on ISO it doesn't appear Elements was a follower in that game.

[davesaz]

So I was gonna check if Elements was coached in that game A50 linked, and there wasn't a mafia pt.
That game changes my Elements meta quite a bit. It's going to take a while to assimilate, but on ISO it doesn't appear Elements was a follower in that game.

Also I don't get if you're saying he's towny or scummy here

Hey Dramonic, here's how you handle questions like this.
You're exactly right, I'm not saying if he's towny or scummy. I really don't know what to think about it.
Probably need to reread, to find out if the feeling that he's strictly following is accurate.
Then need to figure out if he's consistently following, or if it's spread out some. And why.

[davesaz]

Nah, there is some independent thought there.
I think he's more likely to be town than scum.

[davesaz]

Let’s leave the tm game out of it.
A50 you said something D1 about elements that made me think you had a tr there. The read list comment. Maybe I misinterpreted?

[davesaz]

Also, if you're really town.. beware NOT to provide a readlist.

Is this intended to be a general statement or special purpose?
If it's general I'd be concerned that it gives scum an excuse to not provide readlists either.
Even in the specific case that I can think of for a setup like this there are ways for a skilled player to avoid the pitfall.

It's special, and was directed at Elements.

A50, talking about this one.

[davesaz]

@dave: Tthen you definitely misunderstood. There's a conditional IF in 736

Perhaps I should ask this a different way. You gave advice along the lines of not making readlists if he's town, and said it's specific to Elements. I inferred you had seen something that would lead you to act that way. If so, is that something still valid? If it wasn't based on something you saw then what was it based on? Note I'm not asking you what you saw, just if it was prompted by something Elements posted (and still valid) or not.

@others: Yeah the question is slightly mysterious. Call it zen of reading A50.

[davesaz]

Note I'm not asking you what you saw

Yes I saw it too... He claimed VT when wagoned btw.

[davesaz]

I was trying to obliquely ask him whether he believed the original post from Elements more, or the VT claim.
The obvious drawback to being oblique is that you have to assume the other person knows you well enough to understand the drift. Sometimes it's a miss.

[davesaz]

Gotta love those knee jerk reactions.

[davesaz]

Oh great, you've called in all the color conspiracy nuts.

[davesaz]

I thought there would be more discussion of A50's post and my reply.

[davesaz]

I kinda want someone to give me objective infos and talk to me before I catch up

Not a lot of objective info available IMO.
Today we've had Elements run up almost to elimination and a VT claim from him.
Your predecessor was very unproductive compared to my concept of normal for her main, but that's subjective.
We can do VCA and color in the flips green.
Almost50 wants to do on/off wagon split, I've forgotten if he favors eliminating on or off. I'm skeptical that it's more AI than random.
Are you familiar with the setup?

[davesaz]

Dunnstral, AGar, SirCakez, Elements, dramonic
Historically hard for me to read, need to reread other than knowing the posting schedule is intermittent, very weak town, weak scum, insufficient data null.

In a 2v2 multiball game I would think at most 2 scum from different teams, and just one scum is more likely. Really cautious scum might not be on there at all.

Can you further expand on the last line ? I am aware it was very early in the game tho but I dont understand how you went there

The question I was answering was about 5 people on an early game wagon.
The last line unpacks to not thinking that 2 scum on the same team would be on the same 5 player wagon just 3 pages into the game. Further it's possible that no scum at all were on that wagon at that point in the game.
As for why I'd think that -- just my expectations of what scum behavior would be, nothing more.

[davesaz]

You basically take a non-stance in that line

No, I rule out 2 scum from the same team.

[davesaz]

My supply of round to its was used up for the day.

[davesaz]

Looks very caught up to me.

VOTE: dramonic

[davesaz]

Joey catchup is good enough to take the slot out of the bottom rung but I do have some reservations.

MariaR (Xayah) and Dunnstral supposedly know how to read each other very well, though I don't remember if I have seen this in action or not.
If they're both scum on opposite teams it could explain how both were laying low. Trying to avoid detection by the other.
I can also see how Xayah might try to soft pocket me given we have some history of friction (the same Gay Mafia TM game that A50 brought up about Elements).
Joey has make an unusually large number of references to his predecessor which can be a scumtell for some.
So it's a weak town read from the catchup with a whole lot of keeping an eye on it.

[davesaz]

Eh I had been worried about being pocketed by Xayah from very early game.
@dramonic, perhaps you haven't witnessed me being skeptical of an IC's positions? Literally nothing is sure for me until a flip. Get over it.

[davesaz]

Ooh another false narrative to pursue.

[davesaz]

dave and A50 are putting out a lot of "content" but it's almost all crap Joey
What's the towniness you're getting from the content?

Got any town reads you're willing to put a reason to?

[davesaz]

I have no fucking clue what that means.

[davesaz]

Looks very caught up to me.

VOTE: dramonic

Do not like this.

@dramonic, perhaps you haven't witnessed me being skeptical of an IC's positions? Literally nothing is sure for me until a flip. Get over it.

This is dumb.

Still think we should yeet the very clearly scum Elements-slot but y'all are gonna be cowards about that.

dave has moved himself into can probably die territory. Mala can definitely die. Don't like the Xayah (Joey) wagon. Cakez and Dunn are still could die but not top choices.

So you're mafia (not werewolf) and dram's partner?

[davesaz]

PR, popcorn The Bulge.

[davesaz]

Can't tell if my comment about not trusting an IC in a previous game was misinterpreted or misrepresented. Someone was an IC and was doing something I thought was silly -- I voted them to try to get them back on track. It made quite the stir that game.
It has been long enough that I'd have to comb through my games to find it again.
The moral of the story is self-meta, I literally trust nobody without a flip.

[davesaz]

You're getting PR who is annoyed they're being scumread.

As for leading, aside from your latest post I'm the only one in the game who has come close to reading more than half the playerlist. Damn right I'm indignant.

[davesaz]

Let's just see about that.

[davesaz]

I won't say that every one of my posts has content. I probably have a few (<10) fluffy ones.
When you can match me you can talk. Until then, pull your thumb out of your ass and play.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Dramonic
For emphasis.

[davesaz]

If you haven't noticed, 2 eliminated people each have more posts than 6 of the 10 remaining alive slots.
I'd be willing to eliminate Malakittens if I can't convince enough people that tunneling a single slot the whole game is a scum move.

[davesaz]

The image shows me with 102 posts and you with 55.
Saying I'm coasting is one of the funniest gags I've seen on the site this year.
Just stop. Play the game. Who is scum?

[davesaz]

If brass is following the same playbook I've used when modding this setup, a player can only be monk or mason not both. Only one monk can be mafia and only one mason can be werewolf. So we should have 4 distinct PRs of which at most 2 can be scum. The other scum are in the VT claims. The only IC's are monks or masons where a scum monk/mason has flipped. Given it's an open setup the playbook

should/i] be the same unless the setup changed since I last modded it.

[davesaz]

So I remember myself, AGar, and Joey_. Don't remember who the 4th is will have to reread.

[davesaz]

Not sure how you took that as a crumb.

[davesaz]

Elements, dramonic, A50 are the ones you're probably having trouble with right?

[davesaz]

tbh im content with just twiddling my thumbs here and let the blue and red goonies kill themselves for a bit

So your thought is that you should just do (very) little and see how that works?
I'd rather it not go that way. You're one of the leading candidates to be eliminated.

[davesaz]

I tend to treat 'em all as NAI.

[davesaz]

I don't like the way discussion keeps stalling though. If it weren't for extensions we would be within 2 days of deadline and not near a decision for the day.

[davesaz]

Spicy it is. Easy to follow, not.

[davesaz]

Just a reminder that it's generally ok to point out the need for a prod, but players shouldn't request someone else replace in public. That can be handled with a PM in the unlikely event it's actually necessary.

[davesaz]

edit - PM to the mod, not to the player.

[davesaz]

AGar claims to be both, Joey_ and myself to be mason or monk but not confirming which is which. There have been no counters.
That makes AGar an IC.
I'm suspicious of whomever it was tried to trick you on the IC being other than AGar. It has been wild at work and that has been paged out of memory.

[davesaz]

I don’t ever remember dram getting frustrated in a game to the point he’s replaced out. So him replacing out just doesn’t feel AI. Which I could likely be wrong.

Not sure how something that has (apparently) never been done can be used in a meta type way.
The only way to handle it is with the evidence in the thread.

[davesaz]

@dave: Do you have a problem with the Mala wagon?

A quick iso review doesn't reveal any obvious looking for scum. Certainly wouldn't be opposed to it.

[davesaz]

@dave: Do you have a problem with the Mala wagon?

A quick iso review doesn't reveal any obvious looking for scum. Certainly wouldn't be opposed to it.

Would you care to switch your vote to her then?

I'd kinda like dram's replacement to do something. Do you dislike that wagon?

[davesaz]

VOTE: AGar

[davesaz]

Just kidding.
VOTE: mala
Should be....

------[]

[davesaz]

But seriously if another motherfucker says a word about me not advancing the gamestate...

[davesaz]

Not gonna try for teams. I think it's quasi-lylo here, a mislynch leads to a kingmaker at best, unless scum crosskill two consecutive nights and eliminate each other.

I'm going to let the scum teams show their hands here.

[davesaz]

No, see who they're willing to eliminate.

[davesaz]

Of course if they just do nothing we can all die of boredom.

[davesaz]

I'm sure there will be people who twist this the other way around. Thinking of me as conf ignores the possibility that I'm mafia. Can't be WW and I'm the only person who can be ruled out as being WW but that's it. Mathematically I'm the one the other 2 townies must keep, if they can see the math. Not that it matters that much which townie goes if we have a mis-elimination, since it's pretty much game at that point anyway, but just saying.

My towniest tier of remaining slots was A50 and Bulge. I'd like to hold the other's feet to the fire a bit and find out who they're willing to vote and who they aren't. But how to make that happen is problematic. AGar thought dram was town in the monastery thread, but I'm sure not seeing the legendary town!Ari on replace so the scumread there hasn't gone away for me. I can remember cakez and dunn, and am currently blank on who the 4th presumed scum is. DoLittle perhaps? Or is that do nothing?

Pedit: OP wasn't updated but the flip shows mason.

[davesaz]

I'm betting on mason, AGar would have flipped out if he wasn't. And we should have had a CC.

[davesaz]

Shorthand version:

Any town elim -> 2-2-2 crosskill -> 2-1-1 no-elim, crosskill <pretty sure any town win from a mis-elim requires consecutive crosskilsl>

3-2-2 Elim scum 3-2-1 crosskill 3-1-0 -> normal 4p
scum elim 3-2-1 big elim small 2-2 scum win
scum elim 3-2-1 small shoot big 2-1-1 no-elim crosskill town wins

no-elim, crosskill -> 3-1-1 {town gets a regular 2-1 with a scum elim from this point}
no-elim, 1scumkill -> 2-2-1 {only town win path is elim big scum + crosskill, the rest lose}
no-elim, 2 townkill -> 1-2-2

Mis-elim

A mis-elim can actually still win but it requires a crosskill, no-elim, crosskill sequence. Very short odds because one scumteam has slightly more info than the other. The paradox that it's higher ev to crosskill and hope the other scumteam misses than to kill town is pretty funny here. Both scumteams path to win is accuracy but if they are both too accurate then town wins. They have to hope they're accurate and the other team isn't.

Scum elim

The crosskill and small shooting big paths both keep town alive. Crosskill resulting in 3-1-0 is by far the best town path.
Small shooting big requires a crosskill the next night for town to win.
Big shooting small and small missing is an immediate win for big.
Two town killed means 1-2-1 which is it's own brand of fun.

No elim

Town is in much better shape after a crosskill.
If one team misses we get 2-2-1 and town have to elim from the big team to stay alive, and then crosskill needed to win.
If both teams shoot town then the remaining townie has to hope for no-elim and crosskill twice in a row.

Summary:

I'm not quite done with working out the sequences, but to me it looks ever so slightly better for the scum elim case. That one has the only straightforward path for a town win. The other paths seem to all need more than one night with a kill on scum, and specific ones at that. No-elim requires a fair amount of wishful thinking compared to scum elim.

The scum elim case makes it easier for the big team too. They merely have to shoot small and hope small misses, instead of needing to do it twice.

[davesaz]

So we basically need crosskills no matter what?

I think it boils down to this no matter what path we go.
Better IMO to go down trying to eliminate scum than meekly hoping they both hit their target.

[davesaz]

I doubt we'll make further progress.

[davesaz]

Explain why it's better to no elim instead of just eliminating you.
Especially with a stupid ass comment like that.

[davesaz]

VOTE: DrDolittle

[davesaz]

I said to myself after the day flip that I probably never looked hard enough at The Bulge. Nicely done there.

I really didn't want it to be A50 because that would have meant my method of reading him is completely off.

Doing little is a losing strategy when the game is almost over. If you're going to replace in to a game where being eliminated means probably losing, either work for it or don't replace in. Though I must admit my thoughts were colored slightly by how the PyP game I was modding went. DrDolittle was scum in that one and also did little near the end...

[davesaz]

Fair criticism, though I'd say having at least a couple more reads -or- a few more words per post might have been helpful.

[davesaz]

Will PT's be released soon? I'm especially interested in knowing what the scumteams were thinking with those NKs.

[davesaz]

Kinda hard given he was town.