ZeekLTK wrote:The whole thing with scum fake claiming, I see only two scenarios:
1) Scum claim the same result as they got the first night so that their result is not of much use and no one can make anything out of it.
For example, QoS claimed a guilty on Aimless, if QoS is scum then he might just pick another townie and claim guilty on them too tomorrow.
If scum are going to make themselves appear to be useless cops, I have no problem with that. I'd rather them do that then impersonate a useful cop and be trying to steer us in the wrong direction.
Zeek wrote:2) Scum claim a different result as they got the first night in hopes that we lynch one of their two targets.
For example, QoS claimed a guilty on Aimless, if QoS is scum maybe tomorrow he claims an innocent on [someone] to try to get them mislynched.
The second is easy to catch (if we do believe them and lynch, then we will know they lied and lynch them the next day). The first doesn't really hurt the town at all so even though they are lying it won't matter.
So you're admitting it's easy to catch? Why do you have such a problem with it then?
Zeek wrote:The only way scum fake claiming can hurt us is if someone like TDC (just an example) is scum and they come out on Day 2 with two different investigations against two different players who are still alive.
No, he would just make us believe one of them is scum. I think we'd have more concrete evidence elsewhere, like someone claiming someone is scum AND knowing their sanity. Not like in your example.
Zeek wrote:TDC investigated me and got an innocent. If he is scum, tomorrow he could come out and say "oh, I got a guilty on [Player A]".
Now we are in trouble, because if we believe TDC to be town we will lynch either me or Player A - but the truth is BOTH me and Player A are townies. And, after we lynch incorrectly, TDC can just claim to be sane (if we lynch me) or insane (if we lynch Player A). Then tomorrow one of his scum buddies can come out with further "proof" against me/Player A (whichever is still alive) and get another mislynch, possibly winning if we don't lynch scum on Day 1.
You're entirely ignoring the fact that we're going to have 9 other claims. While I can't run numbers on this, I find it hard to believe they can do this without there being a discrepancy.
This scenario (two different results against two people who are both alive) is the most dangerous to the town and it can be AVOIDED if we REQUIRE everyone to investigate Aimless - because then everyone will have at least one result against a proven target. So, continuing with this example, if TDC is scum and tries to get me mislynched by claiming a guilty on Aimless (instead of a random "Player A") - when I come up town everyone will know TDC is scum and lynch him.
You're also twisting my words. I said I don't agree with Aimless's plan of an absolute everyone investigate Aimless. If people were to investigate someone else, they would have to explain why. If they didn't have a good reason (such as they are scum), they would look highly suspicious tomorrow.
ZeekLTK wrote:TDC wrote:I don't understand how the rest of your post is relevant.
Regardless of what else we do, the information that scum gain is exactly the same no matter in what order we claim. The information that we gain, however, can be maximised if we force scum to claim first.
The point was: he wants us to claim results AND randomly investigate people - this won't be helpful at all because most likely players who claim to have 2 different results will have the results against alive players (since they didn't investigate Aimless, which charter said he "doesn't advocate") - so only the scum will know which results are correct and the town won't.
Reread my post 273. You're twisting my words again. I was the one suggesting we DISCUSS if we should reveal tomorrow. I guess I should have wrote a big disclaimer in my posts so that you'd know I was putting it forward under the assumption we reveal (even though it was painfully obvious).
For the FOURTH time Zeek, what problem do you have with claiming first?
Farkshinsoup wrote:I think the question is whether we should be claiming our investigations at all on Day 2.
If we decide that we don't, then it's a moot point. If we decide that we do, then aimless should decide the order, because he's the only one we can trust. That having been said, just because Aimless's motives are clean, doesn't mean that he will necessarily come up with the optimal order, from scum up to town, TDC.
For example, he's pretty certain that I am scum, and he's wrong about that.
I agree entirely with your post. It doesn't matter if he picks a bad order, because I can't imagine he picks the three scum last, and anything else will be beneficial to the town in terms of trying to catch scum lying.
ZeekLTK wrote:charter wrote:You're still hung up on how can we catch scum if we don't know our sanities aren't you? If we're playing with a bunch of people that can't win games unless the cop spells it out for them, then there's no chance we're going to win this game. I don't know about you, but I've found scum without being told by the mod they're scum. I don't see why we can't continue doing that here, AND use our investigations to help us.
Notice how he just pretends like myself or TDC never asked him what's wrong with a claim order. For the third time Zeek, why are you so opposed to claiming in an order that Aimless picks?
You're just doing what others did earlier about the "scum hunting" quote. I never said I was against the claim order and it was just PART of what the post was about (explained in 287).
Yes, we can scum hunt, but we should also be aware that we can catch scum simply by investigating them. I don't see how that is so hard to grasp - we have a mechanism that allows people to KNOW if someone is scum rather than trying to figure it out, am I the only one who thinks "hey we should probably use it"?
Did you even read my post past the first question? My point was that, even now, you're still suggesting that we need our sanities to win.
Aimless is right, unless he puts the three scum at the very bottom, it will give the town more info than scum.