Mature Mafia: Game Over

[elvis_knits]

vote rajrhcpfreak

Welcome back to playing games!

[elvis_knits]

Judging from the fact that zu self-revealed and coron is in charge of vote counts, it seems that various game-related chores (mod duties) have been parceled out to players.

I think this is because we are so mature.

:whoopie cushion:

[elvis_knits]

I am pretty sure the first line zu wrote was "I am out of the game." Then something like "I was vanilla townsperson."

I don't know if zu edited his post or someone else, but I would bet it is a non-native English speaker by the grammar. "May do" is not normal phrasing.

[elvis_knits]

By mature mafia, does that mean that we are effectivly playing a mod-less game where we have to come together like adults and agree upon what rules we will follow? Can we realisiticly expect the scum to agree in good faith?

Or is there a hidden set of rules, and one player (presumably scum) is allowed to edit posts? That would be an important thing to know.

Coron sauid something about posting a votecount later, which led me to suspect that we are alone here without a moderator. If this is the case then the basic parameters of this game are the functions of the forum software and whatever we agree to.

I believe we are playing a modless game.

The mod has given us roles to police the game ourselves, and chosen us as the sort of people to play fairly without supervision.

Some reasons I think we are modless: before the game started I pm'ed the mod a question and the answer was essentially "you are a big girl, figure it out for yourself."

Also, part of my role includes a mod duty. I can reveal what that is now or at some later point, but I don't think it matters too much at the moment. So I won't say unless the majority wants to know what it is. The point is, after seeing Coron is in charge of the VC, and knowing my role duty, I think the game could conceivably run without mod intervention.

I think agreeing on some rules would be helpful. If everyone in this game can't agree to refrain from editing posts or deleting posts, then they should excuse themselves from the game. There are other things to agree upon also.

If there is anyone in this game who cannot or will not proceed with a modless game, YOU NEED TO RESIGN FROM THE GAME.

[elvis_knits]

Axel, I am aware of the game with vollkan lying about his revealed role.

If you read the thread, vollkan agrees that he was wrong to lie, because he was not acting as his role at that moment. He was acting as mod.

SO... when I said before this is a modless game, I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

We have to play like we are all mods. A mod would not lie about the alignment of a player, even if that player were themselves. Because they are acting as mod.

So we all must agree to be mods of this game.

Along the lines of what Glork is saying...

I might as well reveal what exactly I know about game mechanics here. I think it will help clear some things up and prepare everyone for today's lynch. My role includes, but may or may not be limited to:

Executioner. When one player reaches majority for lynch, I PM them and they must immediately self-reveal in thread.

If I die, I don't know if the executioner duty will be given to someone else. So we have to all agree to self-reveal if we are voted to a lynch. Even while I am alive, someone could refuse to reveal even after I PM them. So, we all have to agree.

And remember, when you self-reveal you are acting as mod, and not as your player role. So you must be honest.

[elvis_knits]

raj, are you scum?

[elvis_knits]

Glork is cute when he tries to bold.

[elvis_knits]

Very cute, but you forgot to unvote.

[elvis_knits]

I am unsure whether the people railing against our self-policing are likely to be scum or town. I think it is not productive though. I would consider anyone who cheats to have lost themselves the game. I'm not really scared that people are going to abuse the freedom we have been given. Perhaps I am too much of an optimistic, trusting person.

But basically, you have to accept that there is the possibility that people will cheat, and play or not play on those terms. There is nothing we can do about it other than decide not to play.

Also, I think mathcam needs another vote at the moment. What are you afraid will happen without a normal mod? Just by playing on this forum we agree to play by the normal rules. What are you so scared of? Or are you just trying to act like a townie who thinks the scum won't follow the rules?

unvote; vote mathcam

[elvis_knits]

Also, I think mathcam needs another vote at the moment. What are you afraid will happen without a normal mod? Just by playing on this forum we agree to play by the normal rules.

Do the normal rules include editing posts? Do you think that whoever chose to edit the first post is deliberately breaking our perceived rules of the game?

Is it possible that zu faul editted his own post and therefor nobody in here has even broken rules? Is it possible that whoever editted the post did so as part of their role and therefor didn't break the rules?

Do you really think the editting of the first post has injured the town in any way?

I know in theory that editting a post is bad, and we don't want to lose info or anything like that. But we did see the original post. We know zu is town and that he is dead. How have we been harmed?

[elvis_knits]

Glork, why are you squashing this wagon?

[elvis_knits]

Anybody who does not provide an answer is either unwilling to try to analyze the first bandwagon of the game, or they are simply unwilling to provide an answer to my question.

It's the first bandwagon... it's useful later, but who knows what it means now? I haven't answered your question because 1)I am on the wagon and didn't know you wanted wagoners to answer 2)I have no idea yet.

You analysis is premature, and is stopping the normal course of the wagon. Attention is now off cam.

[elvis_knits]

I am suspicious of him for resistance to the self-modding setup.

[elvis_knits]

My point is why are you resisting? There is nothing you can do about it other than to not play if you don't trust the players. It's like you're trying to act like townie scared the scum will abuse the setup. Abuse isn't very likely, and also impossible to stop.

[elvis_knits]

Oh no, mathcam.

Claim or die.

[elvis_knits]

EK, were you aware that there were only 3 on him prior to that vote because you seem eager to get a claim out of him and then possibly hammer.

Was I aware there were three votes on mathcam when I voted him? Yes.

We were getting sidetracked by bitching and moaning about self-modding setup and such and we needed to get back to playing mafia. Since mathcam was one of the ones bitching and moaning, I thought he was good place to vote. First of all, because the bitching and moaning was taking attention off of him, second because the bitching and moaning seems like an attempt to look townish. I say it's an attempt because I am not convinced it actually has any pro-town effects, but looks pro-town if you don't think about it.

Eager for claim and hammer? What good is a bandwagon if you don't seem like you want the person dead?

And see how everyone is posting and voting? This is good. The game is getting exciting. It's going places.

[elvis_knits]

Glork, there have been some times I thought you were pretty pro-town this game, but I have questions about why you are doing some of the things you're doing. I'm not really saying they're scummy. I just think there are some inconsistencies:

1) Glork bandwagons DGB without letting cam answer her vote/case.

Even if you don't really like DGB's reasons, usually you would want to hear what cam has to say before you dilute their power. I mean, I think cam can speak for himself. And you should want to hear what cam has to say so you can get a better read on him, right?

2) Glork focuses on DGB over any of the other bandwagoners...

Raj and macros voted cam after DGB, and their reasoning is at least as bad. You mentioned macros is on your bad list, but you are not questioning raj or macros and their actions. Why?

3) DBG always plays like this.

Why are you getting so worked up if you are familiar with her meta? Is there something that you think doesn't fit in her meta?

[elvis_knits]

Although I don't really like some of Glork's behavior, I don't really think he's scum. Mostly because of this post:

DISCLAIMER: The upcoming post does not necessarily reflect what my own role may or may not be/include. I am merely using it as the simplest example I can think of off the top of my head, so as to make a point to Axel.

Consider the case of a mountainous game (aside from "mod powers" such as VCing). At night, the Mafia could simply PM their target saying something along the lines of "We are killing you. Please open the thread and reveal your role to the other players" -- perhaps even from an alt/anonymous account. The deceased player (n this case, Zu_Faul) complies, and the rest of us move on with our lives.

In the absence of a "killer" alt for PMing purposes, a situation such as the above example would create an interesting scenario in which the scums would have to rely on victims' honesty to not reveal their identities while the town relies on the scums to reveal themselves truthfully and to adhere to conventional game rules.

This mechanism of mafia submitting kills seems very likely. It immediately made sense to me, and I can't actually think of a better way for it to go down. And I guess this is WIFOM, but I can't see any real mafioso posting this. I know a mafioso could do it for that exact reason, etc. BUT. I think it's pretty unlikely. If it were me, I would avoid commenting on mafia killing mechanisms at all. The potential for getting myself in trouble is just too great.

Thoughts?

[elvis_knits]

Yeah but revealing it has so much potential for slipping or people being like "how do you know that" that I don't think mafia would reveal it.

I would just stay away if I was mafia.

Would you think about revealing it?

[elvis_knits]

cam is lurking.

Otherwise I could vote raj.

[elvis_knits]

I am not lurking. I missed a single day of posting, and am one of the most active posters in this game.

FOS: Elvis

for that.

Sort of funny how you posted a few hours after I called you a lurker.

On a related note, I'm very suspicious of Glork, raj, and DGB for pushing for a claim. In my role PM, there is a very clearly delineated difference between my alignment and my role. There's no doubt that I will claim pro-town as my alignment, and given that my role is presumably independent of my alignment, I'm not sure what there is to gain from that either. Not only is it therefore bad play to claim (unnecessarily giving away information), it's also scummy to push for a claim. It's also possible that the scum role/alignment structure is set up differently, and thus that scum didn't know how worthless it would be to push for a claim. Raj is the scummiest of those three, so he gets my vote.

Unvote: Pooky, vote: Raj.

If raj turns up scum, DGB and Glork are quite clearly going to become my next targets.

Cam

The way you are alluding to the way your role/allignment is set up satisfies me.

unvote cam; vote raj

Although, I am not seeing the raj/DGB/Glork connection.

[elvis_knits]

raj... when I first came back I was stupider about mafia than before. However, now I think I am back to my old form.

I'm not voting you for asking cam to claim. I did that too, which he seems not to notice...

I actually thought it was pretty weird you accepting the cam-glork-Macros scum group so easily.

[elvis_knits]

but someone has already broken that honor multiple times as the first two posts have been edited multiple times

whose alt is Shadow Lurker? rajrhcpfreak?

As far as I know, he is not an alt, but an uninvited guest.

[elvis_knits]

Let me ask you, elvis -- given that you seem to buy my argument about claiming, why would you ask me to claim in the first place?

It's not that I buy your argument about claiming. It's something about how you alluded to how your claim is set up that made me unvote you.

As far as I know, he is not an alt, but an uninvited guest.

Personally, I suspect that there is more to it than that. Either he's a by-product of someone's role, or it's something like emp_tyger has asked him to post in the thread to test us. It's tough to know what to do here -- a "mature" player in the sense we've been interpreting it would PM mith and ask for SL to be given a warning or a banning for so blatantly breaking the rules of the forum. I'm reluctant to take this social experiment to a site-wide level, though.

I expect that someone should have been given the task of deleting non-player posts. I ask that that person delete jathan's posts now, and send him a pm to stop posting here as it is distracting us from the game.

If nobody has been assigned the task, I would do it if everyone wanted me to/agreed.

I don't believe Jathan is screwing with us because Emptyger told him to, or that Jathan is a by-product of a role. Seems far-fetched to me, and not fair considering the other stuff we have to deal with in this game.

Actually, I do have a question: JATHAN... did you edit any posts in this game?

[elvis_knits]

I think shadowlurker is a red herring and whoever has the ability should modkill/delete his posts.

It is very weird to me that people are thinking he is somehow part of the game. If you know something, spill it. Otherwise, Jathan is just a punk distracting us.

[elvis_knits]

I checked my alt and PP can't edit other people's posts in here.

[elvis_knits]

Man, I am annoying. Look at me! Me, Me, ME!!!!!

I don't think his post said this before...

[elvis_knits]

And then, there's the Adel problem. Have you noticed how profoundly daft her more recent post is? I have.

I agree about Adel. I don't see why people want you dead, DGB. I think you were unfairly singled out about the mathcam wagon.

I do not support DGB wagon.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm... Macros - what did your deleted post say?

I suggest we don't reread anything in this game as it can be easily tainted.

I would feel okay about going forward off memory. I don't like rereading anyway (and prefer not to do it).

(Or I guess we can copy the whole game every day and look for changes. But honestly, I am never going to do that. If anyone else wants to... go for it).

[elvis_knits]

Are you sure DGB misrepresented the VC? I think cam was at L-1 at one point. DGB did continue to tell cam to claim because he was at L-1, but that's not as horrible if cam was at L-1 at one point.

[elvis_knits]

So wait, you are voting for Raj., but you don't want him to claim?

You just want him to be lynched?

I think it's too early to say I want him to be lynched. I want him to convince me why he shouldn't be lynched, or fail miserably in doing so, so that I can tell whether or not he is the right lynch. His role claim seems pretty irrelevant, and if he ends up not being lynched, I'd rather it remained secret, so no, I don't want him to claim.

Cam

I DID NOT WRITE THIS.

[elvis_knits]

I remember someone saying

So wait, you are voting for Raj., but you don't want him to claim?

You just want him to be lynched?

But it was not me. I think it may have been DGB, but I don't remember, and I can't find anyone having said it. Has it been deleted?

Cam, did you make a mistake in your posting, or did you really think I said that?

[elvis_knits]

Ok, good. I thought I was being screwed with.

[elvis_knits]

I am voting for Cam based on:

On a related note, I'm very suspicious of Glork, raj, and DGB for pushing for a claim. In my role PM, there is a very clearly delineated difference between my alignment and my role.

There's no doubt that I will claim pro-town as my alignment

, and given that my role is presumably independent of my alignment, I'm not sure what there is to gain from that either. Not only is it therefore bad play to claim (unnecessarily giving away information), it's also scummy to push for a claim. It's also possible that the scum role/alignment structure is set up differently, and thus that scum didn't know how worthless it would be to push for a claim. Raj is the scummiest of those three, so he gets my vote.

I added Bolding myself for emphasis.

You should be voting him too

Unless you got your alignment as "protown"

Good point.

Unless he was just making general statement.

Glork is right. Cam needs to claim his allignment exactly. NOW.

[elvis_knits]

If mathcam does not claim in the correct way (that lets us know he is not scum), please nobody correct him. Just vote him.

That is all.

[elvis_knits]

I think it is perfectly mature and ethical to ask you to verify one word from your pm. The choice of term here is important. It is not asking you to quote your pm. It is asking you for one word. I see nothing potentially illegal in that.

Or as DGB has said, claim the last letter of the word.

P sure cam is scum now.

[elvis_knits]

Mathcam, I think this is BS.

If I were a cop, I wouldn't object to verifying the term "cop." People who are cops don't need to claim "investigatory role" so that they are not quoting their PM.

[elvis_knits]

But, cam, how are we supposed to evaluate if you wrote "pro-town allignment" before because you were purposefully being general, or because you don't know what the correct term is?

[elvis_knits]

Okay maybe I can convince you by appealing to your sense of ethics...

Suppose you are right. Asking you for your allignment term is a form of pm quoting and gives town an unfair advantage.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum. Level the playing field. The price they have to pay for post editing is losing a member of their team through this allignment test.

In a normal game with a normal mod... scum cheating might pay a pentalty of modkill. That is essentially what we would be doing.

[elvis_knits]

Glork... thanks for ruining my plan

[elvis_knits]

Well, I wouldn't want to play in a game where the mod is "testing our maturity" by screwing around and making it look like some of us are not playing by the rules.

[elvis_knits]

if anyone goes along with your approach elvis, I shall resign from this game in protest. I don't want to play in a game with cheaters, even if we share an alignment. Stop it.

Don't resign from the game because I suggested something. I didn't actually do anything, but suggested a means of policing this game. We should only do it if everyone agrees.

[elvis_knits]

So you feel perfectly fine about a mod who is going to screw with us?

[elvis_knits]

I think it's very immature of you to threaten to modkill yourself after I make a suggestion you don't like.

Yet when I say I wouldn't like to play in a game with a cheating mod, you suggest I replace myself with someone more mature.

[elvis_knits]

You may be town in this game, but I am beginning to suspect that you are scum in real life.

Why do you keep insulting me?

This is totally out of line.

I may have made a bad suggestiong. You can disagree with me. You can convince me I am wrong. I know I am not always right. I don't pretend to be.

But why you feel the need to tell me that I am scum in real life is beyond me.

It really hurts my feelings.

[elvis_knits]

I suggested a solution to what I thought was scum cheating. It was an effort to make this game FAIR. It was not an effort to work around the rules to win for the town. It was an effort to make the game fair.

I wish I had never signed up for this game.

[elvis_knits]

Every one of Adel's interpretations of my post are based on an assumption that I am scum.

You can't assume someone is scum and then read their posts that way. You have to read their posts first and come to the conclusion that they are scum.

FWIW, I would never insult someone as a means of applying psychological pressure. I think it makes the game less fun, and I would never want to do that to anyone.

I object very strongly to personal insults in a game. And I think what Adel has done is much much worse than my possibly horrible suggestion to "cheat" as a means of making the game fair.

[elvis_knits]

You should not make any post, or start any thread, with the intention of abusing, ridiculing, insulting, offending, or upsetting any other user on this site. Within a game, criticism of another player's play is acceptable - making it personal is not, and may result in action by the moderator of that game. Outside a game, determination of the intention of the poster will be made by mith, or someone appointed by mith.

[elvis_knits]

Adel, so you think that because I remembered zu's post correctly that I must be scum??

[elvis_knits]

Thank you for apologizing (I mean that too) but your case on me is still BS.

[elvis_knits]

Adel, so you think that because I remembered zu's post correctly that I must be scum??

I quoted all of those lines from you because they collectively establish your guilt. You responded to the lines, then had a second response when you figured out just how literally honest Zu was. And you wrote all of that stuff establishing your position on cheating... and then you pretended to be willing to cheat to lynch scum.

I'm really not following...

I responded to what lines with what response and then had a second response which was what? And how do you think it proves that I had some sort of epiphany about zu's original post?

Also, my previous position on cheating was that I didn't think it would happen, and if it did there was nothing we could do about it other than quit the game. So we should just continue to play the game. Well, I thought of something we could do about it. IF we believe the scum is cheating, and IF we are reasonably sure they are, we could consider a type of town cheat -- IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE THE GAME FAIR. It is not cheating just because I want to win.

And you're really framing all my actions in a way that is totally unsupported. "Pretending to be willing to cheat." You have no idea if I was pretending or not, and nothing I have said supports your statement. You're framing everything based on your theory and assumption that I am scum.

[elvis_knits]

I apologize if my suggestion to "cheat" has drained this game of fun for anyone. It was meant in good faith as a means to make the game fair.

I am not suspicious of cam at this point.

[elvis_knits]

Though I am suspicious of raj.

[elvis_knits]

I'm fine with claiming mod powers. I already claimed mine so I have nothing to offer.

I don't see a drawback.

[elvis_knits]

I am the Executioner. I pm whoever is at lynch that they need to post their role info in thread and DIE.

[elvis_knits]

I sort of thought RAJ would have SOME power, seeing as he was like "should I reveal it now????"

And then he reveals he has no power.

[elvis_knits]

Maybe if we lynch Macros that would make everyone feel better, including Macros.

[elvis_knits]

If it will make you feel better... okay!

Macros, the pace of the site has slowed a lot since you last played. It's true that the days can drag on way too long and people indecisive. But, don't give up! Just join DGB's Free Firing Squad today!

[elvis_knits]

I agree Macros... please explain your job.

[elvis_knits]

I would expect a pro-town post-editor to admit it early and try to explain himself rather than stirring up trouble like that.

[elvis_knits]

Oh dear...
Have none of you ever played with Macros before?

I actually haven't. At least not that I remember.

What am I missing?

[elvis_knits]

@ Tall, I assumed iot was to give the game flavour, hence my excitement when the game started, I assumed (obviously quite wrongly) this was an oppourtunity for me to delight the masses with witty death scenes, my early foray to test the waters showed clearly everyone was not clued in to the idea (that I thought was immeadiately obvious) that despite the mature title, this game would be a delightful trip down a twisted nostalgia lane, chock full of old jokes, and random bullshit. But no, I was filled with disgust at the serious tone in pretty much everyones post, I was then forced to play dumb for fear of a pogrom on my fine self for editing the post (which is my job).

Where was your "witty death scene" "old jokes" or "funny random bullshit"?

All I noticed was you deleting important information.

[elvis_knits]

I just edited to fix my tags in the above post.

[elvis_knits]

Check me if I'm wrong but if my mod duty was to write the death scene, I would not edit the dead person's post at all. I would write the death scene as myself, and leave the dead person's post as-is.

[elvis_knits]

I'll go check if the VC with raj dead is correct...

[elvis_knits]

It seems that we killed rajrhcpfreak on May 21...

And his rotting corpse has been waiting a long long time.

Axel, Glork, Mathcam, elvis all voted earlier, then talitha voted in post 306, then macros voted in post 415, then phoebus hammered in post 419.

Off to PM raj.

[elvis_knits]

I <3 the typos macros makes.

As=ass.

[elvis_knits]

vote phoebus

Nice death scene, pooky.

[elvis_knits]

Also, Adel.

His case on me is such a load of WIFOM that it hurts.

[elvis_knits]

Here is where I am coming from to start the day: Glork and Coron are probaby scum.

Pooky was suspicious of two people yesterday - Mathcam and Glork. Mathcam is dead and was town. I do not believe the scum would kill Pooky if he was that wrong about both of them. I mean why? In the hope that someone like me would come out today and make this exact point? Generally speaking, scum don't plan like that. They kill the perceived threats, not the people who are horribly off base/under massive suspicion.

Coron has been the worst contributer by a fair margin in the game. And his "also: vote DGB" just now is classic scum voting.

I also note that Glork has come out quickly against DGB this morning as well (this is not to say DGB is therefore clear - some kind of bussing plan is a possibility - but that seems less likely when no scum are down yet).

Feeling it more on Glork than Coron. I

really

didn't like the "Die scum Die" post at the end of the day yesterday. Can we say Over the Top?

Vote: Glork

Pooky also seemed highly opposed to accepting that the setup was mountainous. Like maybe he had another power role.

He would be a good NK for that reason too.

[elvis_knits]

pookys had to curtailed after his crowing about his writing ability.
cams was an unfortunate casualty

The death scenes were much better before.

Where is your witty writing and jokes, buddy?

[elvis_knits]

unvote; vote adel

Current VC:

DGB - 1
Glork - 2
Axel - 2
Adel - 2

[elvis_knits]

Axel, you know Coron never helps, right?

[elvis_knits]

I agree that case was fail as is his current one on Coron.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I apologize for not being more active.

I have good feeling reads on exactly 2 people (Elvis Knits and Logicitus). Everyone else could easily be scum.

Phoebus
Talitha
Glork
Coron
Macros
DGB
Adel

I think there's 3 scum in that group of 7. Out of that group, Phoebus, Talitha, Coron, and DGB have been lurking fiends. Macros has not been

exactly

lurking, but almost totally worthless in terms of overall contribution. So what am I supposed to make of that?

Yippie.

I find Adel and Phoebus most scummy. Adel for crap case on me. Something I was thinking about Pheobus is how his and Macros voted very close to each other to put the last two lynching votes on raj. None of us noticed, so maybe they didn't notice either. VC's were not plentiful. But Pheobus voted withing a few posts of Macros vote, and I keep wondering if he knew he was lynching raj.

I normally try to do my own VC before voting someone if I think they're close to a lynch. Either Pheobus didn't, or he did and didn't care.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry if my tone is a little on the grumpy side. I should go post in the period thread.

Yay for periods!

[elvis_knits]

Axel, I think theorizing that there are mafia members without mod powers and WITH mod powers, is probably correct. I think that it does help us look for buddies, in a weird way.

However, I'm not sure I agree with the way you are excusing certain roles from being mafia, assuming there is too much power to be abused. I think it's likely the powers were assigned randomly. I think we're supposed to be mature enough not to abuse the mod powers, no matter our allignment.

BUT, your theorizing made me think of something. Anyone not performing their duty in a way that might benefit scum? That would be a good reason to lynch someone. Off the top of my head, I think of Macros.

Although I would much rather lynch Adel for the attack on me that made no sense. I think Adel is a good player, and I don't expect crap cases from her.

[elvis_knits]

Both Axel and Talitha are town.

There is nothing about my role, I have no role or mod powers.

I have seen DGB as scum. And she didn't go around confirming people as town.

Just saying.

[elvis_knits]

I think half of the point behind DGB's playstyle is to avoid creating a meta that is indicative of alignment.

Just saying.

I'm not sure DGB is capable of that much self control.

She desires lots of death, even as town. She's less picky as scum.

Just my opinion.

[elvis_knits]

Coron-is-a-punk Vote Count:

DGB - 3 (Coron, Adel, Macros)
Adel - 2 (EK, Logic)
Coron - 1 (Axel)
Glork - 1 (DGB)
Logic - 1 (Tally)

Not voting: Glork, Pheobus/WB

With 10 alive, 6 to lynch.

(Note: Pheobus/Werebear was voting Cam, who is dead, so didn't count that... Also, Macros voted Axel, then voted DGB without unvoting. I counted the vote for DGB, but it would really be good if everyone were to unvote in the future before voting again. Preferably tell who you are unvoting too.).

[elvis_knits]

I'm getting to the point where I am ready to lynch anyone to get this game moving again.

Replacements giving perspectives could help jumpstart the game.

And yeah we might want to replace Coron.

[elvis_knits]

I'm getting to the point where I am ready to lynch anyone to get this game moving again.

Replacements giving perspectives could help jumpstart the game.

And yeah we might want to replace Coron.

We might want to replace elvis for being silly.

I only meant that it might become an issue since you are not always dependable.

I still <3 you though.

[elvis_knits]

Glork takes too much pride in his Mafia game to suck this bad if he's town. On the other hand, he could easily ignore this game as scum and tell us we deserved what we got afterwards for ignoring him. He's active in other games.

I don't remember who I am voting;

Unvote;

Vote: Glork

Was Glork prodded?

I admit lurking is not like him.

[elvis_knits]

Adel... your case continues to be nothing but a bunch of unsupported assumptions.

That isn't shocking comming from you, since if I was right about you and elvis_knits being scum then I expect that mathcam was killed by you and elvis to discredit my theory.

O RLY?

If that's true, then why can't you come up with some new arguments tying me to Macros/Nonny?

The following post is very outdated and almost all of it is no longer relevant.

Since that seems to be all of the reaction I'm going to get out of her, I'll lay my cards on the table:

I'm calling the scumgroup as being elvis_knits + mathcam +

marcos

nonny

A random wagon landed on mathcam, and elvis_knits is bussing him.

Not possible since mathcam was town.

I am pretty sure the first line zu wrote was "I am out of the game." Then something like "I was vanilla townsperson.

scum being helpful by sharing information with the town

There is no reason for you to believe that I am scum being helpful as opposed to town being helpful. What in my posts gives the impression of scum being helpful? Why couldn't it be town being helpful? It seems like you have just decided I am scum and determined to see everything I do in that light. You have assumed I am scum and read everything in that light. There is NOTHING to support it.

I believe we are playing a modless game.

The mod has given us roles to police the game ourselves, and chosen us as the sort of people to play fairly without supervision.

O... when I said before this is a modless game, I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

We have to play like we are all mods. A mod would not lie about the alignment of a player, even if that player were themselves. Because they are acting as mod.

this is when she figured out that zu gave away the critical word!

I don't see what you mean here at all. What did I write that lets you know that I suddenly came to an epiphany? Where do I mention zu at all? Where do I mention the critical word?

You are pulling this out of your ass.

I would consider anyone who cheats to have lost themselves the game. I'm not really scared that people are going to abuse the freedom we have been given. Perhaps I am too much of an optimistic, trusting person.

But basically, you have to accept that there is the possibility that people will cheat, and play or not play on those terms. There is nothing we can do about it other than decide not to play.

she is warning her scumbuddies not to cheat.

Why do you think that? Again... nothing I have said indicates your assumption.

It's like you're trying to act like townie scared the scum will abuse the setup.

As an ethical player she wants to say "it is ok, I am scum and I will not cheat!"

I REALLY don't see where those two sentences are at all alike. You are putting words in my mouth or at least seriously reading into my words things that are not there at all.

I also think it would be a tad retarded for anyone to try to assure the rest of the players that "I am scum and don't worry I won't cheat." Seeing as the person is clearly admitting to being scum.

If mathcam does not claim in the correct way (that lets us know he is not scum), please nobody correct him. Just vote him.

As clever scum she wants to bus her partner and confirm herself at the same time! She knows from zu's post which word to look for, and she thinks cam doesn't.

Well, mathcam is town, so I was not bussing him. Also, mathcam is not a stupid player, so me banking on him missing something is pretty far-fetched.

I think it is perfectly mature and ethical to ask you to verify one word from your pm. The choice of term here is important. It is not asking you to quote your pm. It is asking you for one word. I see nothing potentially illegal in that.

she doesn't think there is anything illegal about it because she figured the word out honestly.

WHERE do you think this happened? Where did I figure this out? You have provided nothing convincing to where I had some epiphany and figured out the word.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum.

I suspect that marcos is scum with her, and she thinks that he is the one who did the editing. She has the added frustration then of being ethical scum who doesn't cheat, but is acting like a townie who bends the rules, while being pissed at her partner marcos who is cheating by editing posts.

I think elvis_knits suspected that Marcos (instead of Emptytiger) is the mystery editor because of the non-native english thing, and then he edited his own post just for cover.

For the record I have no idea if Marcos actually was doing the editing, all that matters to me is that it seems very possible that elvis thinks he did.

So you think that: macros was cheating and that I knew he was cheating because we are both scum. AND that I was trying to give myself a disadvatage to make it fair for the the other team (townies).

That is AWFULLY convoluted, and unprovable.

Also, if I were scum and my buddy was cheating I would just stop the game and admit it. I wouldn't keep going. It would be unfair to everyone.

[elvis_knits]

Yay!

[elvis_knits]

Coron-still-sucks-at-helpfulness Vote Count

Adel - 3 (EK, logic, nonny)
Glork - 2 (DGB, AXEL)
DGB - 1 (Coron)
Logic - 1 (Tally)
Nonny - 1 (Adel)

10 alive, 6 to lynch.

[elvis_knits]

Note that mathcam was killed off by the scum, who I named as a third person in my expected scum team, which is a common way to discredit scum team theories.

O RLY?

I think it would be better for scum to push a lynch of one of the potential scum team. That way if you lynch cam maybe it does make the other two look innocent. Or if you lynch someone who comes up scum then maybe you get to lynch cam the next day.

But whatever. Your whole point is WIFOM.

I also think that it's dumb to call a scum team on D1. It has much more potential for being manipulated by scum than it has of actually helping. I don't see the point.

[elvis_knits]

Are you suggesting that matcam was killed off by a vig? That would be the only alternative. Death-doctors wouldn't work in this setup.

I think the point is we don't know if it was a vig or sk or mafia. Or something weird. You're assuming it was not a vig. Which hints to you being more informed about NK's that the rest of the town.

[elvis_knits]

Note that mathcam was killed off by the scum, who I named as a third person in my expected scum team, which is a common way to discredit scum team theories.

How do you know which one of the n2 kills was from scum? Thats a terrible slip it appears.

The point is, it is unlikely that the scum have 2 nightkills, meaning one of the kills was not from the scum. And you state with a lot of certainty that the scumkill was cam and not pooky.

How would you know this without some inside information?

I think the point is we don't know if it was a vig or sk or mafia. Or something weird. You're assuming it was not a vig. Which hints to you being more informed about NK's that the rest of the town.

Mentally, I was counting mathcam's death as a vig, though one can't rule out SK. I really, REALLY wouldn't think the scum would take out someone as controversial as mathcam, yet, as logicticus said, you're very sure it was a scum kill. Me no likey.

I know that many quotes from the same page is annoying. But I think adel over looked a few things. That is role fishing to me. That is what any town (some scum) would do when some one says that they know for sure a certain player must have been the mafia kill.

I some how do buy that you forgot pooky died. You have been the most hard core about keeping up on this game and seems like you would forget something like that in a game you are so invested in.

Or you had your blinders on.

Nonny... I don't think any of those quotes from other people were asking Adel to claim. I think you're stretching it.

I could now go for a nonny lynch.

[elvis_knits]

I think the point is we don't know if it was a vig or sk or mafia. Or something weird. You're assuming it was not a vig. Which hints to you being more informed about NK's that the rest of the town.

The role I was thinking of when I said Adel seemed more informed, was a mafia/scum role.

[elvis_knits]

Tally raises a BS WIFOM theory that scum would want to replace out of the game.

[elvis_knits]

And WIFOM one-liner comebacks are one of my biggest mafia pet peeves. If you really believe my post is bullshit, explain why, without mis-representing what I said, and without resorting to the most overused acronym ever.

How are we ever going to know why people asked to be replaced?? Making up some kind of theory that is not provable in any way = a giant waste of time and a weak reason to vote someone.

Would you be willing to lynch a player because they asked to be replaced?? It's very ridiculous.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, your argument is very wierd... I did not expect such obtuseness from you, town or scum.

If it's a giant waste of time to speculate and pose theories on why people's behaviour makes them more or less likely to be scum, then I don't know what the hell I've been doing in my 5 years of playing mafia. I thought that was what the game was all about.

And (as I have stated more than once) I'm not advocating lynching because a player was replaced. It is the behaviour surrounding the replacement that I am drawing attention to. That behaviour is distinct from the replacement itself.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I don't like your argument because it takes advantage of people who aren't here anymore and can't have a discussion with you. So it's just you ascribing motivations to their actions, and that seems really weak and unreliable to me.

If we can't lynch Adel, my second choice is nonny. Third choice Talitha.

[elvis_knits]

can't have a discussion with you

I agree with you that this is not ideal, but I still believe that we have to work with all the information that we have. Are you an advocate of people who replace into games having a clean slate? If so please link me to a game where you've advocated this. If not, explain to me what is different about this situation that we should disregard information, even if it is weak.

Actually I usually do advocate giving replacements a chance. Not really a clean slate. I don't forget what happened before, but I do try to give the replacement a chance and base some of my accusations on the present player. I guess my thinking is that if a person is scum they're gonna give it away, so I'd rather look closely at the replacement to be sure. I'll link you to games if I have some time today -- which I probably will.

Sometimes I argue against a clean slate, but I think I'm usually scum there pushing a lynch. Maybe that's why I feel your comments are scummy. That's what I'd do as scum!

Also, on a meta note, in Crubtown mini, when you came up with the theory that QF would have killed Akonas early if she was scum and he was town -- I went along with it because I was scum and it served my purposes. In truth, I think it's a bad reason to lynch someone, evidence being Akonas' innocence. So when you came up with this new theory in this game about replacements being scum, it reminded me of your scummy scheming in Crubtown mini.

Does that make things any clearer?

[elvis_knits]

Well, I did a vote count and we're farther from a lynch than ever

:

Nonny - 1 (Adel)
Glork - 2 (Axel, DGB)
DGB - 1 (Coron/Armlx)
Adel -2 (EK, logic)
Werebear - (Talitha)

Not voting (Glork, nonny, werebear)

[elvis_knits]

I could get on board for a nonny lynch. It looks like she will be the dead one unless I can get more support for Adellynch.

[elvis_knits]

Try to feel adel lynch then.

[elvis_knits]

Nonny is also at 5 from your list.

[elvis_knits]

I will probably go for nonny lynch. I am having some misgivings though because she is one of the people actually posting.

Also, I am mad at Glork for his lack of contribution.

Also, werebear is either scum or crazy if he really thinks the scum are the ones without mod powers. The game would be ridiculously broken.

[elvis_knits]

Glork, what are you doing? We can't get an axel lynch at this late hour. Why not do an analysis on a player that might die?

[elvis_knits]

Glork, why does nonny prodding you make you think she's not scum? Maybe she's hoping you help get someone ese lynched other than her.

[elvis_knits]

When is the deadline today? I guess I have to choose between you and DGB now?

[elvis_knits]

I feel like he's reversed himself a lot for no reason at all. Like now he says Axel is scum... and I thought all along he's been saying Axel is town.

[elvis_knits]

I think talitha said 11 pmGMT

[elvis_knits]

I am dead.

I was a townsperson.

My mod power was executioner -- which meant that I pm whoever gets lynched that they need to post their role in thread.

That is all.

[elvis_knits]

Adel is proof that personal attacks = scummy.

I don't think I had too much of a good read on any of the other scums, but I def thought Adel was scummy, and tried ot push that lynch. But it didn't happen.

Edit to Eymp Tyg: I am most curious about the reasoning for leaving the players in the dark as to the nature of the set-up. I'm not sure what this blind element added other than some confusion, annoyance and frustration.

I agree. I don't know if I would have signed up for this if I had realized what I was getting into. I felt a bit screwed by it... giving Coron responsibility for vote counts??? That sucked. Having a player whose job is to edit the death posts just made it seem like someone was abusing the no-mod setup. I think it made many people apathetic, and low posting always favors scum.