Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[Gimli]

Welcome Gimli!

Hello

I woke up with mosquitoes eating my arm and I'm going back to bed and I'm gonna read this later

My slot is town and I think it's odd how sure you are that this is mafia, Ari. Hertas ISO is entirely NAI no?

[Gimli]

Spoiler: page 1 stuff, might have a read or two already

Me, on my way to find some bad guys

VOTE: Aristeia

Too many As. Gotta get rid of some.

I played a newbie with aureal and she started strong and she was town and I think her entrance is nice here playing around the players names and stuff

VOTE: Myko
Holy what a Fossil!
Hello! I never thought I would play a game with ya!

Hiya Lisa, long time no see.

There's a mafiascum meet in ~2 months and I thought I'd see if I remembered how this game was played.


There's too many players who's name starts with A in this game. There's something up with that. I bet there's scum amongst them.

Vote Aristeia

VOTE: Aristeia

Too many As. Gotta get rid of some.

See. You might be alright.

For an A.

I don't know whether to be impressed or distressed by that joke theft.

I like all of this, players are naturally blending together and I feel they're >rand town for it

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

and I'll agree with the next guy that this is kinda stiff

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

You can't just go declare the strategy out loud like that! There's more of them than us!

Andante, are you m

a

fi

a

?

Not this game!!

VOTE: Andante

They have had the most stilted entrance so far. ITS THE GUILT

No, its okay. Dont tell me.

I will find them.

wavelength stuff is seriously >rand town, including the 'its okay don't tell me I'll find them', seems like organically processing things as a townie and then bantering their scumread on top of it

Spoiler: page 2, reads get more intense!

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

lmao yeah I was and had 2 original partners rep out, and that game was stressful, cause what do you really do in that situation? then green pm here? LETS FREAKING GOOOOOO

andante seems TOO OVERLY F'ING EXCITED and IDK but it feels like a townie excitement. could be a fake thing cause it's so over the top but I like it nonetheless.

VOTE: Andante

They have had the most stilted entrance so far. ITS THE GUILT

lameee

This response does make me happy enough with this First Page Read

Andante, who is your partner?

These posts from you really don't seem great
VOTE: Wavelength

feels more like you're trying to assert yourself as this leader "hey all, listen to me, I am the great and powerful"
idk, I'm not a fan. game literally just started

I like the pushback from andante here and then I like later on when wavelength townreads this from andante, I think they're both >rand town for early start.

Huh, that response actually alleviates my issue with the "lameee" response

me voting you makes you no longer concerned with "lameeeeeee"? lmao what? If you have questions just ask, I won't shut up. it's day 1. page 1. I don't have a whole lot to go off of here, usually I show up like 3 hours late, and find something from RVS I can run with, feels odd being here so early lol not sure this is the move for me

good townie push imo

I have no desire to lead, but did try to skip the silly stages of the game

Ahh good attempt, probably should've picked literally anyone else cause picking me will get us no where lol

and this has townie mindset all over.

hello

VOTE: alisae

good night

dats did you roll town finally ?

huh, I hadn't thought about that.

Datisi can be my page one town read.

whats going on with these reads? they seem out of nowhere.

I have no desire to lead, but did try to skip the silly stages of the game

Ahh good attempt, probably should've picked literally anyone else cause picking me will get us no where lol

It got me post 26 from you, which was nice and serious.

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

That's not really why I went through that line of questioning?
Like yes, having been mafia recently does not have any bearing on the likelihood if them being mafia here. I'm trying to get a read on what alignment this excitement comes from and if it seems fake or not.

I kind of like aureal push even though it's not any good and it feels like WKing on page 2 which is maybe odd, and I kind of like alisae's investigation onto andante's emotions cause it's good perception. not sure if I should townread either. I think alisae is making sense and aureal is not making so much sense but IDK if that means alignment for either yet.

what if all the A's are town

yeah but what if they're all town except for you huh??????????

Spoiler: page 3: the thick plotens

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

VOTE: Aureal

This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.

this is late page 2 but I wanna point at wavelength and call it a townie once again for posts like these.

I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.

it makes sense too. I like ali this game.

Makes sense. That sequential questioning style is actually similar to how I tend to play, but I don't tend to get into the swing of a game early on; I either make people think I'm scummy for posting fluff too long or make people think I'm scummy for picking at something they think is silly. And probably even fuzzier on what people are doing right now since I've apparently come down with COVID somehow. Sigh.

Still don't know how you can call that a mediocre movie though. Or a kids movie.

I like the self awareness here and I don't think flipping aureal this gameday is a good thing already, even though I agree her line of reasoning on page 2 can be construed as a fake push and whatnot.

VOTE: mykonian

Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.

I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.

I think Wavelength's read on Aureal comes from town almost every time, but I also think Aureal is town.

I'm going to attempt to play D1 slowly. I suspect I'll fail at that.

I think klick is very unlikely to be mafia.

Only real town read so far.

I also liked klick's entrance things and I like the strength of wavelength's read on it even though I might not necessarily agree with that

I don't think that 61 comes from his as scum, for either possible alignment for Aureal.

There is also an attention to detail in his reading of Aureal's posts that reveals intent to sort.

so this is good. I'm writing off wavelength as a townie for now.

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

Not sure I'm helping anyone if I answer this. For one, it's 3 pages in and Andante is probably the person I feel most confident I can read anyway, so I might as well wait till I'm not leaning one way or another from a handful of posts. There's no pressing need to answer, Andante isn't even being voted so I imagine you all agree she's pretty town. I also don't have to tell the scum who's the obvious town.

That's a lot of words to say that I don't like you and Klick asking about a townread 3 pages in. Go find some baddies. May I suggest Aureal?

this stinks though.

I have ali/wave/andante
klick/aureal?

as townies

aristeia and mykonian as scummies

I'm hitting send and picking up more parts of the game when I have time. I'm around for a bit for questions if anyone has them!

[Gimli]

I might wanna flip everyone that's on my slot's wagon and that's datisi and aristeia

I fail to see how herta not playing at all, not making a single read, dropping the game and replacing out is scummy. I might get aristeia's POV that this is a meta read so maybe herta just doesn't play when wolf? but I don't get how herta is vibing scummy, you know what I'm saying? it feels opportunistic in a 9er with a bunch of incredibly towny players.

[Gimli]

I'm continuing to read cause this game is fun.

question to datisi: how come you're not reading obvtown alisae as obvtown alisae?

[Gimli]

Spoiler: page 4/5 many things many posts

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

I have to say I like mykonian's reasoning for doubting aureal, I think it's quite an acute perspective and for someone who hasn't mafia in a while it looks like a real scumhunting attempt and not faking it. 'going with the motions' is definitely a scum strategy for some people and it makes sense to scumread someone who's openly stating what their normal game should look like and whatnot.

I do townread aureal regardless but I might also start townreading myko as well.

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

What is this based off of? Experience?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I'm reading that she's going through the motions. That she's just playing how it always goes. That's in her posts.

I think if you are town you don't have to do that, you just read the posts and play. As scum you have to play as you always do.

So she's scum. I'm not quite sure where experience comes into this.

more of that good towny read imo.

huh, I hadn't thought about that.

Datisi can be my page one town read.

what

why

Also, iirc Dat would love to get away with a post like that as scum.

with a post like what. 9? in what universe is that a post that is exciting or cheeky for scumtisi to make?

Is there some reason u didn’t poke Ari here?

why do you think i should be poking ari there

From what I remember you like to poke @ people who have a read on your slot and Ari also got a tr from ur post apparently. I cant help but notice u left her out

maybe i will townread you this time you never know!

well i am town this time, so i hope!

normally he just pockets me by being sweet and kind - I am quite helpless against his charisma.

you'd think I'd like learn but I am quite bad at that and it feels nice to be in his pocket safe & sound.

I think there's scum between ari and dati and I think this whole thing is a little awkward.

Have you ever seen town go through the motions before?

Probably.

Got anything better?

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

My current theory is that there are indeed two A's on the scumteam and you voted the two wrong ones myko

I spent way too long trying to come up with a zingy way of expressing my Andante/Alisae tinfoil

strengthening my klick townread.

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously

The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?

she was the most widely townread scum player

The most widely townread player overall, even

that doesn't help my andante townread, lol.

one more time Dats <3

VOTE: Andante

one more time Dats <3

i am town, and i hope you're town with me so that we can finally win together <3

anyway uh
klick town
herta and myko alos scummy

i am very good at game

If what I was doing is similar to your play how come you couldn't identify it? I don't think it should be that hard to pick up on.

This seems to miss the point. Having a similarity in style doesn't give me insight into your thoughts on what to question. I'll try to be more aware of it now but the followup talk about Mafia teammates hadn't registered as an attempt to sort linked to the question about having been Mafia recently, just early game chitchat. Why do you think it should be that clear, when you don't present your thought process until I said something? You didn't even come to any conclusion.

@Aureal

Did you vote Alisae because you found thier questioning of Andante scummy, or would you say it was just an RVS vote?

Do you have even a read on her, even a weak one?

A little of both, but just that question specifically, as I hadn't really connected it to the later stuff. It just kind of stuck out like a possible attempt to color perceptions of Andante, which would be kind of silly as it's obviously invalid reasoning but I could see it having an effect anyway. People aren't perfectly logical.

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

VOTE: mykonian

I don't think that 61 comes from his as scum, for either possible alignment for Aureal.

There is also an attention to detail in his reading of Aureal's posts that reveals intent to sort.

Can you paint me a better picture here. I'm missing how you got this conclusion.

I feel like if Klick is a wolf that could be pretty easy to fake, I imagine the process is just him pointing out what he sees.

Abstract mental calculus around the variables of [that being the only thing in the entirety of the first few pages which he commented on at all], [the angle in which he read and presented an alternative view of Aureal] [attention of detail of it] vs a world in which they are scum/town, and a world in which they are scum partners.

I doubt that painted a better picture, but that will have do. I don't know that convincing you of my read on Klick all that high of a priority for me atm, seeing as he is at *checks vote count* zero votes, and we are still in early day 1, so who is even married to their reads at this point?

wave/ali/klick

aureal/andante

myko

ari/datisi

I'm not sure if ari and datisi make much sense together due to the way they interacted earlier on but ofc I'm not solving the game on page 5, so this is where my reads went.

[Gimli]

I fail to see how herta not playing at all, not making a single read, dropping the game and replacing out is scummy.

Yes, it has been a bad wagon, who's the worst vote on there?

I have yet to investigate it. what I read from both aristeia and datisi are things I dislike. I liked your early push on herta back on page 5? calling her single post a 'lurkerscum post' that you can't even pursue for reasons.

[Gimli]

VOTE: aristeia

[Gimli]

@myko remember you had a problem with aureal's 'going with the motions' post?

what do you think of aristeia this game? do you think 'going with the motion' is a fair assessment of her game so far?

[Gimli]

Is there a reason why I would want to put it in hammer range right now? I don't think I need to use my vote to add to the pressure at the moment.

Because if you don't pressure someone what are you doing. And herta is there as a RVS, they'll get cold feet (or they don't) and it'll be interesting to see what they do. And if someone quickhammers, that'd be very convenient too, wouldn't it. Tomorrow would be easy.

So yes, I don't see why you'd wait. Risk/reward is on your side.

See, now look what you've done Herta gets to make a lurkerscum post and doesn't have to respond to the fact that he's on a E-1 wagon. And I don't even get to call him out for it!

@ari this is the push myko is making that I'm referring to

pedit: IDRC what you push, I care about how you're pushing things, I care that you're not being towny this gameday and your stances are too safe.

what's your read on datisi?

[Gimli]

"what kind of mind thinks that way"

i mean it is pretty simple what I said about herta. i think he has a tendency to not post when he is scum and i think if he was town he would not have kept his vote on his rvs as it got run up. i think he is usually more interested in the game when he is town and interacts with people more.

if i am wrong and he just happened to decide this game to not play as a townie then it just happens that this was a game he chose not to play.

i think my thoughts are fairly simple and easy to understand. i dont think mykonian has any trouble understanding them.

okay to the first paragraph.

to the second one: I don't think herta 'decided' not to play. I think herta has a RL thing that's keeping them from playing, as they literally said so in their three post ISO:

Spoiler:

Scratch that itch

VOTE: aurial

I found myself busy. I'll try to catch up this evening.

Gambler's fallacy says andante is town.

I"m not informed as to whatever the informed thing is. But I have to read to see.

I'm having a procedure done this week so will get into this when I can.

vla through 26 Feb

dropping this game wasn't AI. are you scumreading their content?

as to caring what you push: you're pushing the game's low hanging fruit that I know is a townie. there are many reasons why you'd do that as scum, one of them is that it's much more convenient to push someone who won't push back. so I don't wanna read into the push itself either way. I care about why you're doing it. I see herta's content and see no evidence of scumminess, and for now I do not buy that you thought otherwise.

either way I expect you to update your read on my slot through my own posting and not your herta meta read so let's see how this develops.

Note: fixed formatting (changed a [spoiler⁣] tag to [⁣spoiler=⁣])

[Gimli]

that is not a push

a push is a vote and getting people to vote someone

making a casual comment about how someone is lurking without pressuring them in anyway is not a push

if anything its poorly constructed distancing

that's what I called a push

to the last part: are you calling me and myko svs?

[Gimli]

@datisi what's your read on aristeia?

[Gimli]

"not being townie" and "your stances are too safe"

these are just catchphrases and not an accurate assessment of my play.

I an pushing the person I believe to be scum. it is not "safe".

it is much "safer" play to simply tag along with someone else's push such as Myko's on Aureal, Alisae's on Datisi or Datisi's on Andante.

I expect much more from you than just your push on herta. I don't see eagerness to solve. right now talking to you I see you haven't even tried to update a read from a poster with 3 posts (which even if your meta read was 100% herta's scum game it could still be NAI due to RL, that happens to literally everybody) to his replacement who produced a lot more content and is throwing it all in your direction.

[Gimli]

your own posting is to omgus at me and not really develop anywhere else

it looks antispewy to me because I am town.

oh you

that's so uncharitable aristeia, come on. how can I think you're town when you're saying this?

[Gimli]

@ari: I posted read progressions in every slot and I just replaced in. you said my play was to OMGUS you and avoid that, which was the first thing I did. I could be scum, sure, but I'm working the game and I'm not antispewy. I can't think you seriously thought that now.

[Gimli]

Gimli, what page are you on for your catch up at this point?

I'm on page 6, I might finish it today but it could take a while still. but I read ari's ISO and some other minor things to make sure where I'm going with this.

[Gimli]

Have you read page 6? Or just opened page 6?

reading up now.

your #126 is great, cause I think klick's opener explanations on aureal's townread are what makes klick town a lot here, I think.

I think aureal is always going to look at myko's posts about her and think they're in bad faith, so I think it's still a town play by her to be pushing back at that in #128.

andante slimy in this page.

I think datisi is townie here.

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?

omg klick locktown

and I think andante looks bad.

[Gimli]

I'm gonna post less things but more posts just to get to current page

I really don’t get the tantrum and I don’t really see how these votes are the end of the world if you’re a villager. Like I feel like you should still be able to play and try to generate something that’s useful or helpful even after death?

I expect town!datisi to look at alisae's post in this page and then look at aristeia's post in the same page and see the differences in treatment from a townie slot that's playing the game always from a suspicious and uninformed mindset to one that isn't doing that. even if you don't scumread aristeia I don't see how - and I know e is pushing you for whatever reason e is pushing you - you don't see er as towny.

[Gimli]

I don't like anything from andante in pages 6 and 7

aureal/myko/ali all townies infighting thingies

It's completely different from here where she goes into a vote on me without talking about me at all till the vote, then coming up with logical reasons from the posts where I accuse her without actually calling out why I'm stupid to even think those reasons could apply to her here. She's not calling out the evidence, but calls out that I don't talk about andante when asked and instead talk about her.

VOTE: aureal

alisae why

[Gimli]

I really heavily dislike everything alisae is posting on page 8

I'm gonna take a step back now enjoy yourselves

[Gimli]

your #126 is great

Oof.

Gimli, why is your incredulousness at people scum reading Herta'a small iso limited to the people who are voting for you right now?

For reference, my "great" post

This might be a spicy take (/s), but

herta's posts are bad

.

I also think that Aureal's actual responses to me make me feel less good about their alignment then Klick's theoretical explanation for their earlier posting.

Why did me saying this not get a reaction like Ari saying it did? Because I think I am town?

In that case, why did someone you think is town saying it, not lead to questioning the scumminess of others doing it?

I explained the part of your post that is "great" and it's not the part where you're scumreading my slot. anyone can think that a person with 3 posts in one week is a scum slot, but knowing it's town, and after checking herta's ISO, my immediate response was to check who's pushing that and how. as I said to ari I don't care much for the scumread on herta itself, but the reasons why people are doing that. you didn't explain yours in that post, I don't care about it it doesn't and shouldn't affect either my read on you or my read on aristeia. aristeia is pushing herta for herta's meta of lurking as scum. herta's ISO shows they have a procedure and couldn't play the game, so it feels like hiding behind meta to push a lurker, from my POV from when I replaced in. my interactions with aristeia were not great, I don't see her talking to me in good faith, so my position is that I think she is scum. I've been liking other datisi's posts in other parts of the game, and I'm not unidimensional to just do everything from the standpoint of 'are they pushing my slot or not', that was just how I entered the game because it's from what position I'm playing.

[Gimli]

pages 10-11

I didn't understand alisae's point re: mechanics but I think datisi comes off looking towny from these exchanges, not interacting in a bullshit manner to entertain thoughts he doesn't believe in. I can see ari's standpoint wrt tvt infight and I see her 'distancing' post to me as reminiscent of her earlier herta-myko solve from page 11, so I can see us playing a game where aristeia is town and I'm dropping a bit on my alisae townread just because I heavily heavily heavily dislike er putting aureal in E-1 and the way e is hooked up in mechanics comes from a ?????????? place. I expect myself to understand how er plan makes any sense if it makes any sense.

I think one thing that could happen here is that scum!alisae picked up a vendor bullshit role and knows everytime there's a vendor bullshit scum there's other vendors who are town and whatnot and e wants to get ahead of them and hardclaim. then everything else is painting mechanics over it to make it seem like you're the towny who came up with the idea first, so that when the town fruit vendor dies people don't wanna flip you necessarily.

so I'm open to reevaluating my reads on everything, it's still early isn't it.

[Gimli]

it is the lack of posting actually

So sure, he's lurkerscum. Which is why by the time of the deadline we are going to Elim him (I just noticed I got that wrong in the previous post, apologies

@MOD

). But it's a bit boring.

Fine, next point then. How am I attached. You've got a plan ready.

his rvs vote got run up to e-1 and he is just doing nothing

that feels like scum who doesnt care about solving and thinking how nice it would be if his rvs gets elimmed on d1 without him doing anything

i think town would at least feel alarmed that his rvs vote got to e-1 before he expressed a read on it.

I agree. He had promised he was going to post that evening, it would have been fun to see him post while he somehow as on the E-1 wagon. Wavelength is there for a reason, I am there for a reason, Lisa was there for a reason and Herta is not. So it's not a real E-1 wagon, and there's only two honest votes on Aureal atm. It's one reason why I really wanted Lisa on that wagon, as stated. If somehow it goes to completion with Herta never saying a thing about it that's pretty scummy. He'd have to address it in his next post.

Sadly we got the unvote and such, but such is life.

I think this is a scummy post. there's excessive posturing wrt herta without going there and I can clearly see how myko and herta would be viewed as aligned. I also think the 'yeah herta is scum but flipping them is boring' an alarming take in a 9er with 2 scum. 'boring' is half the game if you're so sure about it.

[Gimli]

klick seems very different this game and not in a good way (he was town last game)

andante, can you expand on your klick scumread?

[Gimli]

I don't actually think that I need to work very hard for it.

Seems likely with my vote there now, I can just go afk for a couple days and he will be dead.

what's pinging you so hard?

[Gimli]

I'm caught up.

I'm coming up with a townpile of

wave/klick
aureal/ali?

and sort of nulltown reads on myko/datisi

what's left is aristeia and andante actually.

I think klick is my strongest townread for their stances on aureal, for the play on andante (which also spews klick as town if andante flips scum), and followed by wave who started strong, also with an andante push, and just feels pretty organically towny throughout.

I just played with aureal in a newbie and this just feels like it. I expect her to close down on people scumreading her, especially if it's for reasons she dislikes, and I view her reactions to myko as making a lot of sense for her and not scum posturing.

I was quite strong townreading ali and I still am, but putting aureal on E-1 and then going over mech the way e did was alarming to me. I wanna interact with the posts of er hardclaim because it might help me figure out what's going on, which I'll do in a bit.

myko has given me both townpings and scumpings, it sometimes feels like he is posturing, but I like the flow of their ISO and think is still likely town. I put in a nulltown pile because I'm strong townreading the other players more, I think.

perhaps datisi should be lower than myko but I like his reactions to alisae at least and don't mind his posting otherwise.

aristeia I'm scumreading but less than I was when I was talking to her. I feel she is coming at me rather disingenuously, but there were parts of the game especially on p.10+ that I can see where she is coming from. still hard POE'd down as probably scum.

andante kinda feels like scum flailing? she started really good, I felt, but once she got pressured her responses were all over the place and she seems to be trying to get townread instead of working out the game.

so this is antispewy gimli's thoughts.

[Gimli]

how do you expect town!ari to approach you?

what I don't expect you to do is paint a wildly unfair picture of my posts to maintain your herta scumread. since you did that I think you're mafia now.

[Gimli]

I'm one 1v1ing you and participating of your WIFOMs of 'what would i do as a wolf' because people might confuse that with a tvt.

I expect what I expect from every town player. to speak to and about me in good faith. you didn't because you said I was antispewy and not talking about other slots and just focusing on you, when I had read progressions in every single slot since my very entrance posts. your descriptions of my posting was wrong enough that I don't think you really thought that.

[Gimli]

so I'm reading into alisae's claim with more attention now:

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

alisae is an informed JOAT. if there is another JOAT, then it's also a JOAT with messenger and fruit vending shots. @ali if I understand this correctly, if there's another JOAT in the game then it has your EXACT role, right?

alisae goes on to modguess that this means there's a pool of informed JOATs and in this pool there's scum, right? the first idea is already a guess, because you might as well be the only crap JOAT in the game.

from town!alisae perspective, I think it might make sense to out all this information as you hunt for other JOATs. being a 9er, it could not be horrible. what I really don't get is how you go from your role card to guessing there could be 4-5 JOATs. no one else claimed JOAT as of yet, so it might as well be the case that the only JOAT is alisae.

idrk what to make of it, I don't agree with ali's takes but I might not be understanding them.

[Gimli]

why can't I just be town who believes herta is polarized and doesnt post when he is mafia?

because anyone can have a tough week. herta didn't play, had some RL stuff and replaced out. you can scumread it but you should also be nuanced with that read instead of kinda tunnely with it and then hard tunneling his replace in by just framing everything he does as scummy. I don't believe your scumread on me. I think you're doing this thing where you ask a bunch of things that lead to nowhere like 'what posts of yours are towny' to clutter the thread with a 1v1 that nobody else will read so people write you off as upset towny instead of scum. It's better if we both engage with other slots if you're tunneling me, cause from my end of things I'll be tunneling you as well. if you're trying to find me ITT and townread me you can do it with all the content I produced already.

[Gimli]

you are claiming i am scum for not thinking you are town. that is why i am asking you which posts of yours i should be townreading.

because for you to believe ari = scum for not townreading me. you also have to believe that town!ari would townread you.

so i am asking you which posts town!ari should be townreading you for.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying you're scummy for a combination of your safe stances and FAKE THOUGHTS as you said I was antispewy because I scumread you and had no thoughts on other players, and then when I pointed at all the thoughts on everyone else I had, you shrugged it off cause they were townreads! you can scumread me the entire game, I have been in many games where I townread someone who just scumread me throughout and I had to bare it cause I thought they were town. that's not your case. I can kinda see where you could come from as a townie, but when I interact with you all I get is the idea that you're framing things to look a certain way, to make what I'm posting less reasonable. right now talking to you, you're saying I think you're scum cause you don't think I'm town. that's not even simplistic, it doesn't work as a description of my read on you.

[Gimli]

actually your scumread of me is even worse than that

you are saying that you can see why I would think Myko/Herta are aligned as a townie. But ari is scum anyway because I said so

and now you're grabbing at something from the latter parts of my catch up, when I was simultaneously seeing where you could come from in these pages and stated that ITT at least three times, to then beat me up with it with 'oh but you think im scum' when clearly I'm taking that into account in my reads. do I have to think you wouldn't make a svs pair that makes sense as scum? is that a hard thing for you to post as scum?

[Gimli]

you're trying to clutter the thread now, I'm not participating in it.

[Gimli]

you really don't need to meta read me. and yes this is what I do everygame as town and as scum. I catch up I do my things. IDK how metadiving me helps with that sort of thing. I'm not catching up anymore, I'm here, I'm exceedingly loud and just figure what that means wrt my alignment.

I bet aureal will come here later on with my scumgame where I did this exact same type of catch up posts, although ofc much worse than that because I was scum and here I'm town.

[Gimli]

but wave I want you to express clearly why you think I'm scummy. I don't think you did that yet, even though you seem so sure about it.

[Gimli]

Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference

I'm a scumsiding potato who's horrible at mafia, of course I'll sheep you on andante. I have no preference between andante and aristeia, my ari read is just louder because I'm interacting with her and we're 1v1ing. I think the way you caught andante on page 5-6 and their subsequent AtE are >>rand scum and I'm inclined to go there.

VOTE: andante

[Gimli]

I asked the question because you asked me why I thought you were scummy, and one of the reasons was that your method of catching up: the spoiler tags for a page by page catch up, where you grabbed lots and lots of quotes - seemed performative in nature especially given the size of the game at this point. I wanted to double check that it was not just a play style thing.

Because I had the time, and did not to actually wait for your response, I went and scanned through your rep in games already. I did not see that style of catch up in any game actually, although to be fair most of them were repping in much later, I did find one where you came in on page 10 of day 1 (compared to page 16 of Day 1 this game), and you responded to an average of less then 1 post per page

Spoiler:

1 quote on page 1

0 quotes on page 2

1 quote on page 3

2 quotes on page 4

0 quotes on page 5

0 quotes on page 6

1 quote on page 7

0 quotes on page 8

0 quotes on page 9

Compared to this game, where during your catch up, you grabbed an average of 9 posts per page

So yeah, your catch up looked very performative. Designed to look like a townie with lots of thoughts about the game vs the things that town you would have actually gravitated toward.

see, you metadived me and went nowhere with it like I said you would.

what's your andante read?

[Gimli]

but wave I want you to express clearly why you think I'm scummy. I don't think you did that yet, even though you seem so sure about it.

I also hate your approach to the idea that I scum read you vs the idea that Ari scum reads you.

Your earlier response that you just glanced over my scum read of your slot because it came without reason, compared to Ari's which came with a vocalized argument that you were able to fight against, feels like scum to me.

You have since then left me as one of your strongest town reads, while trying to get me to make an argument that you can fight against. Which also feels like scum to me. You seem more focused on fighting to make people think that you are town, then actually just... being town.

(And also, I agree that Herta's lack of content / pop in not addressing the wagon they were on / repping out, all seem more likely to come from scum)

okay, all I can say is your read is potatoes, you're not paying close attention to my posts and how I'm solving your slot as opposed to ari's slot. instead of counting how many things I'm quoting in my last game or whatever, you should be looking at my reads progressions here.

I asked you to expand on your read so I can understand where you're coming from and talk things through. turns out you're just not paying attention and there isn't a lot to talk through. you're making comparisons that don't work and assuming I operate at a complete potato NPC level that I should be either scumreading you or townreading aristeia for sharing one scumread. that's not how mafia works and you're not catching scum with this logic.

[Gimli]

see, you metadived me and went nowhere with it like I said you would.

If you actually read the post that I made, you would see that I found the exact answer to the question that I had.

you found a wrong answer lol

but okay wave good talk

[Gimli]

see, you metadived me and went nowhere with it like I said you would.

If you actually read the post that I made, you would see that I found the exact answer to the question that I had.

you found a wrong answer lol

but okay wave good talk

gimli lets just say you are town

if wave and i are both town and both found the wrong answer, why do you think Klick found the right answer but wont tell us how he got there?

could it be because klick has a little cheat sheet with the right answers to start with?

klick is my top townread though.

yes if klick was scummy - and I have a tendency to be townread by scum - then I could be suspecting it. but klick is towny, I played with scum klick a partner and I feel this is the towngame instead, and I'm townreading much of their posts and I think the strong townread on me is organic because I'm oozing townyness. wave can't feel it and that doesn't make him scum, but not feeling it doesn't mean I'll give you townpoints either.

[Gimli]

more important than your bad tunnel: what's your read on andante? what's your read on aristeia?

I'm taking a bit from the thread brb

[Gimli]

]

I am a little curious as to how you have expectations for what I would do in regards to people scumreading me; there was very little of that going on in that game since I got to skip tripping over my own feet in the early game by replacing in on page six, with a nice juicy argument that I can sink my teeth into sitting there waiting for me.

Hi aureal good to be playing with u again

It's more of a personality read than something that specific that happened in the micro. I remember the way you were pressuring meg and then BBT in that game, and the way you're interacting with myko feels similar to that. I think you're more likely to see mykos push as disingenuous the same way you were seeing megs push on Dionysus as disingenuous in the micro. I probably shouldn't have phrased the way I did here other than to say you're playing in the way I'm expecting you to given the threadstate and what's being pushed around.

I also don't expect you to townread me after the micro no matter what I do but I wonder what you think of me rn.

[Gimli]

Re: rush talk, I should note that this isn't a reasonable request:

yall want to lim a slot that's done nothing? when I told yall I will definitely give stuff this weekend? like, good logic

Because even though we are not under time constraints, D1 ends Thursday and waiting for the weekend literally means not being able to flip the slot this gameday.

I agree with klick that andante doesn't seem to be writing things she believes in, and i dont like her re-entrances posts. Full omgusing and appealing to emotion in a way that doesn't feel genuine to me.

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:

I'm still probably voting this but I'm in bed and might be better if I figure this out tomorrow cause of this claim

Still feel andante is the best elim now

[Gimli]

Wait Ari you hammered her

[Gimli]

Give it a second for us to think about it jfc

[Gimli]

"lol kill me im not going to be around"

-> e-1 vote

-> "actually im a PR"

in a 9p

is almost always scum

I wish I had your confidence

[Gimli]

I'm not locktowning aristeia over this if andante flips mafia lol no way

But we flip dats first

That's assuming andante flips mafia

[Gimli]

I'm not locktowning aristeia over this if andante flips mafia lol no way

But we flip dats first

That's assuming andante flips mafia

It goes against every single thing she was posting klick. She was pushing me and you and then hammered our wagon
She's not town for the hammer she's town for the thoughts behind the hammer

[Gimli]

Stupid quotes

Okay I'm off to bed ttyall later <3

[Gimli]

dats and then myko tomorrow if flipping dats doesn't end the game

hi enchant you replaced into a doomed slot sorry

[Gimli]

VOTE: myko

ok boss

[Gimli]

bruh

she is persuasive

[Gimli]

dats was grumpy and wasn't obvtown and dropped the game which might be his recent scum meta? I replaced into a datisi slot recently in a white flag mountainous, nobody left me alone and I got tunneled for days. then I died and flipped mafia and they won.

[Gimli]

I believe you

I think mykonian justifying a townread on a dead scum is clumsy enough to be a wolf

[Gimli]

myko has focused artificially on aureal as well, I think. like that scumread that scum never drops cause it's a safe place to go push so myko never felt like reevaluating there. this post from d1 I didn't like (didn't say it at the time cause I was trying to kill aristeia):

hardomgusing his primary pusher is literally the easiest move for a scum under pressure to do.

Oh my. Do I have a wagon for you.

Can I interest you in Aureal?

I think this particular scumread is concerning when there are a few people in this game strong townreading aureal and some of us might have meta with her, so I don't feel like mykonian was acting in good faith around this scumread.

[Gimli]

Looking at different forum color inflicts pain i didn't know exist...

I told you just use Silver, it's easy on the eye

[Gimli]

How tf they put masons in a 9er

[Gimli]

How tf they put masons in a 9er

2 masons vs 2 wolves is balanced in 9p

But we have informed potato joats which I think makes it unfair for mafia for how heavily into it we can mech spec, given how alisae treated their role itg

It doesn't matter much

[Gimli]

I also have investigative ability. So meh.

Wth

[Gimli]

Unless there is some reason that Gimli is clear I would like to get Gimli
guy looked like a wolf responding to these claims

I wasn't home though, was phoneposting from the bus terminal

[Gimli]

you can flip me today I'm VT

I played an awesome game though

[Gimli]

Unless there is some reason that Gimli is clear I would like to get Gimli
guy looked like a wolf responding to these claims

your theory is good

if I'm a wolf I'm 100% bussing andante to oblivion

I don't think I pushed her enough to be her partner though. I voted her because my reads went there after catching up with page 6 and then klick asked if I'd prefer it over ari.

your solve works but if you really pay attention to my posts you'll notice I'm a towny with a good scumread and not informed scum. there is read progression that works from a townie standpoint there, you just don't wanna have to work on reading me and prefer to be marry with your solve, which is fine.

I'm just saying this to say this, I'm not particularly interested in defending myself and would rather flip now than in a f3 scenario with, like, you and aristeia.

myko won't endgame either so it doesn't matter much in which direction we go between me and myko, as long as ari and enchant are masons it's all good iyam.

[Gimli]

you're wrong though, potato head

[Gimli]

alisae can you explain again what exactly it is that you're informed? I understood you know that if there's another JOAT, it has your exact role. but myko just claimed a different type of JOAT. how does that make sense?

[Gimli]

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

"I'm informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role". if that's the case, then myko has to be lying since he can apparently perform miscellaneous actions?

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:

I really think flipping me works now

[Gimli]

I don't think myko is lying about the lazy psychologist part

so the POE is now me or aureal actually and aureal is townier

[Gimli]

no

I understand if there were masons
I understand if there's a cop

I don't understand two potato joats + another joat + masons and enchant is also an invest? that's too many things for me to process

[Gimli]

no

I understand if there were masons
I understand if there's a cop

I don't understand two potato joats + another joat + masons and enchant is also an invest? that's too many things for me to process

if there are two masons in a 9p then there should not be any more town tprs that are positive utility like capable of doing something useful. finding a mafia via psychologist is

useful

I agree with you

but like, you know, that part of having to have two mafia alive so he could act, is a detail. it makes me trust it.

[Gimli]

Okay

The psychologist makes no sense cause it's a hard guilty in this setup since town doesn't have killing abilities

It also overflows town with stupidly OP things given Ari and enchant are masons

[Gimli]

VOTE: myko

I'm just doing this then

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:

Ok enchant work your magic

[Gimli]

I think we should massclaim. I'm VT as I already claimed.

[Gimli]

so we have
gimli - vt
aureal - vt
klick - vt
alisae - informed fruit
enchant - mason
ari - mason
myko - JOAT

that's it we have successfully massclaimed

I think all vts are vts

I think scum is in (alisae, myko)

[Gimli]

It's completely different from here where she goes into a vote on me without talking about me at all till the vote, then coming up with logical reasons from the posts where I accuse her without actually calling out why I'm stupid to even think those reasons could apply to her here. She's not calling out the evidence, but calls out that I don't talk about andante when asked and instead talk about her.

VOTE: aureal

klick, what do you think of alisae putting aureal on E-1 here?

[Gimli]

the vote and what e is quoting. I think it's an extremely unconvincing case by myko, and he seems to believe it, but I don't believe alisae believes in it

[Gimli]

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

both wolves have this role

[Gimli]

VOTE: alisae

[Gimli]

okay

VOTE: myko

[Gimli]

VOTE: alisae

[Gimli]

well my poe is alisae and aureal and I don't think aureal can fool klick so it's alisae

I wish she didn't dump a vote on me and left with a 'i'll take a nap' but I think her vote on andante looks fairly non partner-y?

I might have to re-read but really it's probably just alisae.

@ari: what was datisi's read on alisae before he subbed out? did enchant leave anything reads wise in the pt?

[Gimli]

I am really good at reading bussing some of my best solves in games have came from identifying who is bussing and who isn't.
I would say it's one of my strengths as a player

when I flip VT you're losing the game on f3 regardless of your alignment hf

[Gimli]

aureal's posts are pretty bad today

where's klick

[Gimli]

@aureal: the play made klick locktown regardless of andante's alignment

I'll go ahead and catch the last wolf between alisae and aureal and you can flip that after you kill me

100% of the time there's a wolf on my wagon so it's gtk

[Gimli]

Datisi thought Alisae was mafia before he rep'd out

I agree with dats

[Gimli]

there won't be an f3...

this is so annoying that if you're town you're throwing the game over arrogance. you're not attempting to sort me, you're not even reading back the game. I'm ISOing you and aureal and andante to see what jumps to surface, then I read my notifications and it's this crap. over an associative that's wrong you're tunneling me. how do you expect me to think you're town and catch aureal instead of just tunneling back?

[Gimli]

andante was strong tr'ing aureal for most of the game

at some point they were both E-2 and she(andante) was really annoyed with it

then she started to walk back from that aureal townread

IDK what it means.

alisae spoke A LOT with andante. like, more with andante than with anyone else but datisi. and it wasn't for a scumread, it was for 'parsing out' andante, but all the questions were really softballs and could be construed to make it seem like they're unaligned and to help andante find her foot itg.

I wish aureal became obvtown at some point so I could be sure it's alisae but I guess that's not happening

[Gimli]

okay alisae then I'm done reading the game

it's you, and if it's not you I'm fine losing the game with you for playing f5 in a completely tunneled manner

gl hf losing f3 and go aureal

[Gimli]

Why would I consider other options?

have you ever been wrong before?

[Gimli]

Why would I consider other options?

have you ever been wrong before?

Why would I assume I'm wrong without being presented evidence

if you're town and I'm town we're losing the game over this. it's not about assuming you're wrong, it's about giving enough room for the possibility that you're wrong and what that entails. you think you're good at mafia but what you're doing now is bad. you have a simple POE of (me, aureal) and you were scumreading aureal enough to put her in E-1. now you're shut down completely to that possibility because you think you identified a bussing pattern from other games, and the read itself is fine but the strength of it literally means you're shutting me down and I don't wanna work in this game, I just wanna point at you and say please please please klick kill alisae on f3 because of this, let aureal win regardless, please punish this attitude.

you might be a great reader but is this good mafia playing, alisae? I don't think it is. if you're town you're not talking it out with your scumread and you can only be this confident after people flipped.

[Gimli]

done w/ this thread

if ari wants to flip me she can flip me

klick please kill alisae in f3 kthxbye

[Gimli]

BOTH MASONS WANTED MYKO MAN
ÃDAD09A3JUDFAH8F8A3G8FA

what is this

I can't be mad you're just a wolf but what is this jfc

[Gimli]

Mafia is a team game.
It doesn't just go 1 way. I don't just help you when it's convenient for you. That's a selfish way of playing and if you're going to pretend it's a team game when only you will only do what you think is right and only care to put your own reads before others, then like idunno.

Like ya you're a mason you're afraid you'll die tonight you wanna take your time that's fine, just don't promise to care about what I want when you care about what you want and you only see yourself as your only ally. I'm your teammate. One preferably uses their teammates to cover for their weaknesses. If you're confused, talk to me. If you need my help, ask me. If you don't know where to go, lean on me.

Mafia is a team game and knowing how to use your teammates strengths to cover for your weaknesses is an important aspect of the game.

I'm literally aristeia's team mate that you're shutting down. I helped kill scum on d1. you only got there when andante started flailing horrendously ITG. you spent the entire d1 enabling andante.

I wanna know what you think happens f3 after I flip. you're making sure you lose, alisae, do you understand that?

[Gimli]

'im so good at mafia blablabla'

reality: has no perspective

[Gimli]

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

lmao yeah I was and had 2 original partners rep out, and that game was stressful, cause what do you really do in that situation? then green pm here? LETS FREAKING GOOOOOO

I used to get a lot of wolf teammates that were basically NPCs that's super relatable. It's super stressful cause in that situation one feels like Atlas carrying the earth. I don't even know how I won one of those games but those games are usually really hard to win as a wolf.

Do you like playing villager more than wolf?

what's NPC?
yeah, I got lucky with people who repped in, but yeahhh, luckily I had awesome people who repped in, but yeah, being scum, not looking at the game for 24 hours, going "who's the new guy??" OHHH my partner hahahaha

I'd say it's mixed, there's definitely town roles I HATE being, and scum is only fun every once in a while tbh like, once a year is perfect!

npc is a non-playable character. I use to to describe players who have no desire to play wolf or the game and are just going to do whatever it is they want to do. I def prefer town > wolf but I think it's easy to get excited about playing wolf if I have exciting teammates. I've gotten some pretty exciting rands back in the day.

Anyway this was productive.

PRODUCTIVE

bunch of NAI stuff

then you started to literally coach her itt when she was getting heat

do you want me to case that cause I can case that I can make you look horrific

[Gimli]

like o isn't it funny how alisae spends so much time doing nai interactions with andante and not with anyone else??

[Gimli]

they mean something now they'll mean something in f3

[Gimli]

now that andante flipped it looks svs

isnt that how you're reading me? 'look at this it can be construed as svs'

look at your early conversations with andante, isn't that a nice little thing for a wolf team mate to do early on?

[Gimli]

your fixation with andante isn't just early it's throughout the game

you're always trying to post questions at her direction, which is nice if you're a townie trying to understand her but look it's even nicer when you're a wolf trying to save her

you only voted andante when she felt too much pressure and her lim was unavoidable, and only started pushing her on contradictions in a moment where you could benefit from bussing her

oh look at my great solve aint i good at mafia i studied patterns

[Gimli]

all your questions are absolute softballs too

[Gimli]

why wouldn't you bus andante when she is acting like that?

@anyone who wants to benefit from beating alisae in f3: check all er's questions to andante, and then to everyone else itg. notice how the questions for the other players are always game advancing hardballs, or intent on alignment-checking, while the questions to andante are all softballs, even later on when she is getting heat is more like 'please explain these things you said and havent explained yet' and not like pressuring on contradictions or anything substancial. it's meant to improve andante's position ITG. it only became a true scumread when convenience calls for it. you don't think andante was bussed? guess what, the entire scumpool is me, ali, and aureal. we were all in andante's wagon. andante was bussed.

[Gimli]

Like the angle you're pushing here is "you could be a townie doing these things but you could also be a wolf doing these things too"
"you only voted her because she felt too much pressure and her lim was unavoidable" bro so it's impossible for me to be a villager and just vote behavior I feel like is questionable in the moment? Heck, why would I even go for that bus? The way you make it sound it doesn't get me anything. I would just be handing villager a wolf corpse for free.

yeah but it's impossible for me to actually have scumread andante and start the wagon there with klick as a townie and not a wolf bussing, right?

[Gimli]

3 votes is actual danger when andante was posting all those bad scummy things

[Gimli]

Andante can you try being transparent?
Why do you like 128
Why do you dislike Klick
What is your read on Myko

Your reaction doesn’t really make any sense and I can’t really parse through it but I don’t think you’re an elim right now so why is it all suddenly doomed? If ur town shouldn’t u be able to show us that?

this is what I'm talking about re: softballs. this is all trying to get andante to position herself better. expanding on reasonings is something a veteran scum player will tell a newbie scum player in wolf chat. you're doing that openly. do you see how that looks svs, when you havent treated any other slot like this?

[Gimli]

3 votes is actual danger when andante was posting all those bad scummy things

No, at he time it seemed like those 3 votes were going to be the most she was going to get.

that's not true, when andante had 3 votes she was absolutely the gameday's flip. I don't think anyone here will agree with you on this.

[Gimli]

Datisi was gone
Ari was going to do her own thing
Wavelength didn’t say anything that implied they were going in that direction.

If I’m a wolf with andante where would the 2 other villager votes come from?

there wasn't anyone townreading andante, alisae, when she got to three votes her in game position was doomed

if I'm scum I get on that wagon asap. and guess what, scum bussed. now it was either me very early, or you when she was doomed, or aureal who came before you iirc. rn, I'm leaning you.

either way you get no credit for voting andante and might get negative credit if you say you do.

[Gimli]

Spoiler: all votes on andante

Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference

I'm a scumsiding potato who's horrible at mafia, of course I'll sheep you on andante. I have no preference between andante and aristeia, my ari read is just louder because I'm interacting with her and we're 1v1ing. I think the way you caught andante on page 5-6 and their subsequent AtE are >>rand scum and I'm inclined to go there.

VOTE: andante

Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference

I'm a scumsiding potato who's horrible at mafia, of course I'll sheep you on andante. I have no preference between andante and aristeia, my ari read is just louder because I'm interacting with her and we're 1v1ing. I think the way you caught andante on page 5-6 and their subsequent AtE are >>rand scum and I'm inclined to go there.

VOTE: andante

Sounds good
VOTE: Andante
Don't discredit yourself though!

I think that in most of Gimli's interactions with Ari, he does not appear to be talking in a way that makes sense to be a townie talking to their top scum read [who they think is currently pushing you in bad faith.]

He looks like he is talking to a townie that he is trying to get to re-evaluate him (especially early on) / discredit her read if she doesn't (more of this later on).

Once I made it clear that I did not wish to interact with him on my scum read on him (largely because I find that to be a fruitless endeavor for both parties, and one of the worst ways to get a genuine re-evaluation of a scum read) I am now being described as tunneled to discredit my read as well.

I feel like a lot of this is echoing the way you were seeing me as well, would that be a reasonable assessment?

Anyway, I'm not sold on Gimli yet but I am trusting Klick and obviously we need to figure out Andante so I will VOTE: Andante here. I don't understand this slot at all- can anyone with meta on her explain how the heck someone who apparently thinks that reading 90% of the game is optional can manage to play this game?

Pedit: hi Andante, feel free to answer that question for yourself too please

VOTE: andante
There lasts posts were ??????
They can claim

VOTE: Andante

I changed my mind she's mafia

we know one of these votes came from mafia bussing

the q to klick/enchant/ari is, which one of them is more likely today

figure this out. I'm here for questionings if you have them. you know where I'm leaning, you know where alisae is leaning.

[Gimli]

I played with klick as a wolf team mate and I don't think klick is going to do with andante what klick did to andante as a scum partner. I'm hardclearing klick because of it. just check klick's ISO, they absolutely murdered andante, ari. it's not something you really do quite often to a partner early d1 of a 9er. klick caught andante in a trap play and exposed her as probable scum. that's how I got to strong SR andante when I was catching up with the game. while it's possible klick did that as a wolf, I think the only viable options as solves are alisae, me and aureal. if it's klick, I'm fine losing and we're going to lose.

[Gimli]

I played with klick as a wolf team mate and I don't think klick is going to do with andante what klick did to andante as a scum partner. I'm hardclearing klick because of it. just check klick's ISO, they absolutely murdered andante, ari. it's not something you really do quite often to a partner early d1 of a 9er. klick caught andante in a trap play and exposed her as probable scum. that's how I got to strong SR andante when I was catching up with the game. while it's possible klick did that as a wolf, I think the only viable options as solves are alisae, me and aureal. if it's klick, I'm fine losing and we're going to lose.

I want to believe Klick is townie too which is why I think it's just you >_<

'want to believe' lol. aureal is also playing, btw, you don't even know what makes sense as a POE cause you're fake solving cause you're scum

[Gimli]

what trap play

here are the appropriate posts:

Spoiler: klick trapping andante

Aureal seems town

Why's that?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon

I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?

[Gimli]

this is after klick is already hard SRing andante and wagoning her. VERY early on d1. this is very early d1.

[Gimli]

compare that to alisae's interactions with andante 'you seem excite' thingies

and then to aureal's interactions with andante

and klick becomes a non possibility, you know, it's just really hard for me to see these things, and having played with scum klick and knowing how much of a team player klick is, to think that this is ever ever ever distancing. it's not distancing.

[Gimli]

why would I go back and read people voting me? fuck that. not worth my time. Thus I expect truthful information when I'm here in the moment, not to be lied to then "lol checking to see if you were reading the thread" like why would I? if I really want to dig into me being voted it's just going to annoy me, and the "haha andante e-1" from whoever?? yeah no thanks. vote me out before I care, then it can be "haha andante was town"

VOTE: Klick

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

Andante can you try being transparent?
Why do you like 128
Why do you dislike Klick
What is your read on Myko

Your reaction doesn’t really make any sense and I can’t really parse through it but I don’t think you’re an elim right now so why is it all suddenly doomed? If ur town shouldn’t u be able to show us that?

look at this sequence. alisae trying to save andante here. andante is E-2 at this point.

[Gimli]

andante had a really telling tvs reaction to klick here and spewed klick town.

[Gimli]

this is after klick is already hard SRing andante and wagoning her. VERY early on d1. this is very early d1.

ok but he didnt push it through., he went on to vote alisae and then vote me. why can't it just be distancing he did in the beginning?

his alisae/andante team was a p.4 solve, it made sense for klick to go back there

also they were scumreading you cause you were pushing their top townread. it makes sense, I also thought you were disingenuous scum on d1. klick invited me to start the andante wagon, and once that took off andante snowballed herself.

if you're andante's team mate, do you pressure her? think about how andante played, and how klick already knew andante from past games. don't you think she is particularly susceptible to scumtell when she is hard pressed? why would klick be the first to do it?

also if you remember d1, NOBODY pressured andante like klick did. it's early and often and brutal.

[Gimli]

but that's just playing mafia, of course klick would move their vote around

andante's wagon that killed her started with klick. it wasn't me, really, I just voted her. klick asked me to do it cause in my solve I put you and andante as my top SRs. if anybody on andante's wagon deserves credit it's klick. I'm willing to die on that hill and if I'm wrong then I got outplayed and that's it.

[Gimli]

@ari: this thing alisae does, does e do it as town?

I think you and alisae are missing out the possible scum partner in worlds where me and ali are tvt. and its aureal, not klick, imo.

[Gimli]

can u make posts about aureal then and not about me?

[Gimli]

like you're so sure it's me, so you must be strong townreading aureal. why? is it anywhere in this thread?

[Gimli]

but that's just playing mafia, of course klick would move their vote around

ok but you're saying Klick's early pressure on Andante is what killed her - which is not true because it literally didn't happen that way

it did, though. when I replaced in, andante's wagon was dead. when I was catching up I went from townreading andante's EXCITEMENT in p.1-2 and pushback against wavelength to strong scumreading andante's reaction to klick especifically on p.6-7. andante felt like scum flailing. klick saw where my leans were, it checked with klick's leans, so they were strong TRing me. what did klick do? first klick enabled me itg, cause klick is a really really nice team mate and that's how klick plays mafia (which also means they are not scum with andante, but you don't have to agree with this). then klick told me they were more sure about andante than about you. then aureal voted. then andante posted super scummy things. THEN alisae voted, and said she could claim. it all begins with klick vs andante on p.6-7.

[Gimli]

andante's wagon that killed her started with klick. it wasn't me, really, I just voted her. klick asked me to do it cause in my solve I put you and andante as my top SRs. if anybody on andante's wagon deserves credit it's klick. I'm willing to die on that hill and if I'm wrong then I got outplayed and that's it.

Klick asked you if you wanted to switch to Andante but he said he was fine voting for Ari as well - this was as a reaction to me voting for Klick. If Klick is town, how does that reaction make sense from his POV without adjusting his read of me?

I would never refuse klick's invitation to vote andante. klick also was the one who emptied your wagon by taking me out of it.

[Gimli]

ari you have your reasons but don't you think alisae is just way more likely to be scum with andante than klick? don't you think all of what happened in this game can be easily explained by klick just being a townie with a POE that simply contained the masons and the wolves? what klick did this with d1 was awesome town play. compare that to alisae who was enabling and softpushing, and with how alisae approaches solving this gameday which is shallow reads both on klick and on aureal. I think alisae is much more likely to be the mafia for these reasons.

[Gimli]

you looked scummy cause you were masons, I can see what klick saw I saw the same things, you had TMI on datisi

[Gimli]

the coziest pocket I've even been inside of

[Gimli]

showing frustration with a player =/= appealing to emotion

being emotional =/= appealing to emotion

[Gimli]

is this all you got, aureal? been expecting you to town it up this gameday

[Gimli]

I was annoyed at the way e was pushing me, and the worlds in which e is town are ones where we are doomed to lose because the way e is pushing me is par with an easy f3 loss. I think e is the mafia but I'm open to the idea of being you instead, it was simply impossible to try and work it out with alisae cause e is determined to keep er mindset at 100% solved, even though it was clear from my conversation with er that e does not hold a good grasp of this game and what makes either you or klick town.

[Gimli]

VOTE: aureal

you're just letting us kill each other aren't you

@klick: can you go over aureal's ISO again and tell me how is she so clear in your mind? I don't think she did anything after the beginning of d1 with that push on myko, that's par with being such a strong townread now. 'agendaless' isn't necessarily a townie thing.

[Gimli]

I'm honestly not even that confident on Klick being last scum - like every person in the game kind of townread Klick - which is why it's really strange for Klick to not have been nightkilled N1 - instead the shot was on Wavelength?

alisae did that to frame me

then killed enchant instead of you cause e can't AtE to anyone else

is that a good enough explanation?

[Gimli]

It would be really impressive wolf play to try to "trap" your own partner. They would have to be able to deceive their partner to do it.

he didn't trap Andante though?

the important thing is that andante felt trapped, and reacted accordingly, and spazzed out and voted klick. that doesn't happen in a svs, I don't think.

I think it's funny that it's the same thing I repeated throughout d3 that alisae is using to clear klick, when e had no concise thoughts about the slot and was just writing klick off as a townie 'cause its just gimli'.

[Gimli]

Sorry for screaming maybe I'll start playing mafia like a sane person again and remember that I need to actually try to "case" the other players to prove their innocence's to others if it really is just Gimli (which it is ofc)

I know this is pretty egotistical but I want town to lose if alisae is town and is shit pushing my slot like this since d2. I don't normally play anything well, but my d1 was excellent and extremely towny. everyone in their right minds can see that I'm likely town, other than this loud potato head I'm having to endure.

I want alisae to realise, if town, that e is not even half as good as e thinks e is and is simply bad enough to hard throw a game just like everyone else is. and if e is mafia I don't want to reward that play with a victory. right now given the disingenuous way e is pushing me, I think it's just alisae. I can see the worlds in which is aureal, but would rather sheep klick's read.

if it's aureal and aureal is fooling everyone, that's great she can win

if it's klick I'll be surprised, and hand it to ari as being much better than me at gamesolving (which of course she is), but I can only vote klick if the mason forces my hand, and when it inevitably flips town I'm gonna be very very sad.

idk if I'm helping anyone by writing this out loud. gonna heat up some coffee and be around in a bit if people wanna talk.

[Gimli]

how does killing Wavelength frame you?

wave was scumreading me very strongly

[Gimli]

like people do things for a reason - do you think she was going to get Klick eliminated? Did you think it was going to make people townread her?

andante also spaz voted me when she returned to the thread with 3 votes. alisae saw that as distancing, the same way you're seeing the klick vote as distancing. feels like the same kind of reaction though, and it can't be distancing with both slots since one of us is necessarily town.

let me get caffeine in my blood. let's talk this out.

[Gimli]

Spoiler: klick's posts about andante before the 'trap'

Like Ari, I'm also interested in hearing more about what Andante has posted that you think is towny.

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

I don't think anything Andante has done has been particularly towny thus far

VOTE: Andante

I believe u Datisi

My current theory is that there are indeed two A's on the scumteam and you voted the two wrong ones myko

I spent way too long trying to come up with a zingy way of expressing my Andante/Alisae tinfoil

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously

The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?

@klick: are you a bus heavy scum player? maybe the game we played isn't a good comparison cause it was white flag. do you think you'd play d1 like that with scumdante?

[Gimli]

oh

I just googled it and yeah sorry

[Gimli]

I want to win but if you/alisae insist on making it a 1 for 1 then I can accept losing if you're both wrong because winning isn't the most important thing in the world.

I tried talking it out with alisae but e just intensified the tunneling when I did.

my idea was flipping alisae and then f3 becomes tomorrow's problems. I have no intention in losing the game if I'm wrong about alisae, but if alisae is wrong about me and gets me flipped, I don't think town ever wins

[Gimli]

my idea was flipping alisae and then f3 becomes tomorrow's problems. I have no intention in losing the game if I'm wrong about alisae, but if alisae is wrong about me and gets me flipped, I don't think town ever wins

I think if you flip Alisae today and Alisae is town you will get auto-flipped at the current trajectory tommorrow.

Both Klick and Aureal have expressed that they believe it is you if Alisae is town and I will probably be dead.

okay

ari what's your POE now? you're scumreading klick, but who are you townreading, what's your solve looking like?

[Gimli]

I just feel like if I'm mafia and I decided to bus my partner on D1 - I would play this game exactly the way Klick has. Just do it and try to lean back and let townies rip each other up while keeping my hands clean. Like every other person in this game feels like they just went straight at people's throats on d2/3 without really considering how it makes them look - Alisae, Myko, Gimli are all extremely aggressive and feel like tunneled townies - Aureal less so but at least Aureal voting right away. Meanwhile Klick is just kind of standing back and letting things fall where they may.

I have a feeling if we mislim today - Klick will be the kingmaker on D4 and if he's scum he will win.

So if we decide to not lim Klick I want the following to happen:

(1) Klick makes the call on the elimination today - I want him to actually be responsible here today.
(2) Klick votes first in D4 tomorrow - I don't want him to be floating and kingmaking again tomorrow and talking to both players and "seeing their POV" etc or whatever. Give Klick a deadline of voting by the time 96 hours is on the timer - make him 1v1 someone and see if he will actually hold up under pressure.

let's do ari's plan

@klick you fine with that? pick your flip today and vote first tomorrow if you're wrong

[Gimli]

not really

I think what's stressing me the most about klick is how his aureal read is untouched throughout the game. I think the way aureal has played requires reassessing. she didn't vote on d2, she openvoted me on d3 and is just letting things happen here.

[Gimli]

klick 'caught' alisae when aureal was E-1 though. I think klick has defended aureal quite enough there:

Spoiler: klick defends aureal, pushes back against alisae

VOTE: Alisae

Datisi help
I found scum but e's going to beat me in an argument

I'll figure it out faster if you can convince me you believe Aureal has any chance of being scum here, much less enough of one to vote right now

To be very clear:

Aureal is at E-1

Have I not been previously clear about my Aureal townread? Genuine question, because both yourself and Andante seem to not be considering it in the posts you're making. I don't want Aureal at E-1 because I have a fairly solid townread on Aureal, and I feel like that should be obvious.

There's nothing in particular that I currently want out of this gamestate.

I guess if I dive a bit deeper into that, I want to not disturb it, because I feel that often when I try to influence the discourse with specific intentions, I fail to get anything that significantly influences my read on the game. I find much more success getting an accurate read from watching a game develop naturally without large influence from me. So I want to encourage a gamestate that feels naturally developed to me so that I can solve it properly.

Outside of that, there are a few things that I don't want. I don't want Aureal eliminated. I don't want Wavelength eliminated. I don't want you eliminated, I think.

PEdit: this was @myko

[Gimli]

fwiw the 'letting people 1v1' read is much more true about aureal than about klick fmpov. I understand that the threadstate means that the last scum is pocketing aureal here and it's not everyone just misreading her, but what if it's everyone just misreading her? I don't know if aureal has been particularly towny and she is playing exactly the kind of game that benefits her the most when she is scum.

[Gimli]

I need alisae to treat me as a player with any kind of town equity here though. I can't work with someone who doesn't want to work with me at all and I shouldn't be expected to be townreading someone tunneling me like this. it's bad enough that I have to carry the heavy bag of a townie tunneling throughout every single game of mafia I play, alisae isn't even someone I'm townreading so like, you know. I think it was gross that e practically begged you to vote for me cause 'team player' over er myko vote, when the positions you both have in game are completely opposite since you're a mason.

[Gimli]

I don't know. do you think that's out of er scumrange? if you say it is I'll believe you.

I sure as hell would never do that as mafia but I don't think I'd ever do that regardless so.

[Gimli]

which vote, yours or klick's?

that vote when you put aureal in E-1, that's why I think you're mafia when I re-read d1. that + your attitude wrt being informed fruit. I think you thought there'd be scums and townies as fruit since both scum are fruit, but the only fruits are the scum. the way you talked about informed fruit was assuming the existence of a heavy amount of fruits, which makes sense if you're scum and both scum are fruit. if you're a town fruit and know there's at least one more fruit, I think you're more likely to not play d1 that way, I think.

[Gimli]

there's only two possible explanations wrt wavelength being killed over klick

scum either did that to frame me as scum (and you came d2 guns blazing wanting my wolf pelt) or scum is klick who can't kill himself

that's what I think. I'm leaning towards you framing me, you don't have to say it out loud. someone will. wavelength kill makes me look wonky. klick alive makes me look wonky.

[Gimli]

now @aristeia do you see how alisae has no intention of talking through the 1v1 with me? I'd love to do things your way, I like your plan, I think you're playing solid mafia and I feel a little embarrassed for being part of what's potentially destroying town, but that's the game that's what we're going to do.

it's gonna be either me or alisae today, either me or alisae tomorrow. so let's get this done with.

[Gimli]

you have already talked about this, alisae. you know what it looks like? it looks like the closest you can get from a boring af mechanical talk in order to scumread someone. 'he replaced' 'he scumread scum' 'he bus'. this isn't talking about my posts, my leans my thoughts my attitude my solve my interactions. it's pure garbage. talk about shit pushing someone.

[Gimli]

clearly I went for it

[Gimli]

or I can be a townie with good reads you goddamn potato

[Gimli]

IDK but if it's not you I can probably figure it out better if you at least concede the possibility of being wrong

like you have 40 thousand posts you played so much mafia why are you so sure you're right? I'm sure you've been wrong so much already, I don't get the confidence. I agree with ari this isn't leading to an endgame plan so idk what to think of you.

[Gimli]

I wish we could just get gimli and the game can end and we can all be happy and dance and sing songs and eat some strawberries

you'll eat two strawberries in f3 when I flip

[Gimli]

last pages just made me angry at alisae

I can't play this game with this player doing this

let's flip inside (gimli, alisae). then whoever is left alive can pick up the pieces for f3 play. if alisae can't possibly do anything until I flip then I'll be as convenient as e is being: I can't look at this game through any other perspective until alisae flips! cause im so good at the mafia and so confident but nobody reads poor gimli's posting. let's just kill alisae and get to postgame and eat strawberries and sing and dance and hop.

I don't really think it's klick I don't think klick does what klick did to andante as andante's partner.

y'all missing out on the possibility of being aureal and hardclearing her for no reason! but okay.

[Gimli]

there aren't great arguments for aureal town, it's like 'she seems unagenda-y' which can totally just be a wolf

her d2 and d3 play are non existent. aureal has more impact as that when she is town if our last game together is anything to go by.

[Gimli]

I'mma meta dive aureal and figure out what's going on in a bit

gotta lunch and do other things first

[Gimli]

that can totally be a wolf, ali. I don't see what you're seeing in that unvote clearly.

[Gimli]

that's bananas I think. I think you're all pretending like aureal's range as scum is so limited that she can't do a single thing that looks towny. the unvote is whatever and it's worse cause she didn't immediately move from there to a potential candidate. it denounces a lack of solving mindset.

@aureal I'm gonna dive you regardless but can you point at some scum games from you? thanks.

[Gimli]

are you both willing to flip your own slot today to make sure the other person gets flipped tomorrow?

because I'm kind of tempted to just press end on this game if you're both that certain the other person is mafia.

you're just talking to alisae here, I'm literally ISO diving aureal as you post this but surely you're not reading my posts are you?

my first AtE I guess. does it even matter what I'm thinking, or does it only matter that alisae is tunneling and alisae's emotions?

anyway if e is fine with it then sure let's get this done.

[Gimli]

aureal has no recently completed games as mafia. she is literally being hardcleared by the entire game for no reason, then.

[Gimli]

the only reason I'm not completely fine with it is that it's gonna look like me and alisae threw and aristeia was being a reasonable fairy about the whole thing, when the truth is aristeia is enabling alisae throwing the game over er tunnel

I just want this to be everybody's fault and not a bunch of people come at me later like 'oh your 1v1 was so tunnely from both sides' cause I sure as hell am trying to think alternatives here and being shut down everytime.

[Gimli]

I don't particularly believe in blaming people. It's just a game. I do read your posts

then how do you say I'm sure it's alisae? the only person doing this thing where some specific player needs to absolutely flip is alisae. you're acting as if this 1v1 is balanced from both sides when it's not.

[Gimli]

the whole point of playing a game with other people is that you can be wrong about things - if we are not accepting of being wrong or foolish then it's not really a fun game anymore

everygame I play the following happens: someone, normally a townie, throws a tantrum cause they want certain player flipped. that's often me, idk what it is that I do, but it's often me. it's always someone that NEEDS TO FLIP. it hijacks the game. it makes it unfun. it makes it unplayable.

you're phrasing it like me and alisae are both doing that, we're both so sure it's the other! but I'm not doing that man, I'm working ideas on every slot. I don't even think it's alisae anymore? I think it's aureal. but if we're flipping aureal then we need time, I need time to make alisae find me in this game, but e doesn't want that e just wants to be right no matter what. and yeah it's draining it's unfun we can plug the game, sure.

[Gimli]

what

[Gimli]

VOTE: gimli

[Gimli]

my solve is aureal, fwiw

[Gimli]

reskimmed aureal and not really sure anymore

idk it's whatever

someone cap me and figure each other out in f3

[Gimli]

don't put this all in alisae, it'll be too easy if the last wolf isn't alisae. I'm flipping cause I don't really wanna flip alisae this gameday anymore, and us both in f3 when e is playing like that will always be a crossvote.

any of y'all can cap me whenever you want to move the game forward.

[Gimli]

are you townreading me?

[Gimli]

aureal's 38 post ISO has

- early defense of andante, pushes alisae for questioning andante's excitement;
- omgusing myko
- more defense of andante, now to klick
- votes herta
- unvotes herta
- votes andante but i don't see where aureal was scumreading andante prior to this

and then there's nothing more really.

[Gimli]

let me grab the specific part that could be important here which is aureal's progression on andante

[Gimli]

Spoiler: aureal's progression on andante from early defenses to voting her

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

You can't just go declare the strategy out loud like that! There's more of them than us!

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

@Aureal

Did you vote Alisae because you found thier questioning of Andante scummy, or would you say it was just an RVS vote?

Do you have even a read on her, even a weak one?

A little of both, but just that question specifically, as I hadn't really connected it to the later stuff. It just kind of stuck out like a possible attempt to color perceptions of Andante, which would be kind of silly as it's obviously invalid reasoning but I could see it having an effect anyway. People aren't perfectly logical.

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

VOTE: mykonian

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

Andante has claimed that not reading everything is not ai for her. Do you disagree with that assessment?

I think that in most of Gimli's interactions with Ari, he does not appear to be talking in a way that makes sense to be a townie talking to their top scum read [who they think is currently pushing you in bad faith.]

He looks like he is talking to a townie that he is trying to get to re-evaluate him (especially early on) / discredit her read if she doesn't (more of this later on).

Once I made it clear that I did not wish to interact with him on my scum read on him (largely because I find that to be a fruitless endeavor for both parties, and one of the worst ways to get a genuine re-evaluation of a scum read) I am now being described as tunneled to discredit my read as well.

I feel like a lot of this is echoing the way you were seeing me as well, would that be a reasonable assessment?

Anyway, I'm not sold on Gimli yet but I am trusting Klick and obviously we need to figure out Andante so I will VOTE: Andante here. I don't understand this slot at all- can anyone with meta on her explain how the heck someone who apparently thinks that reading 90% of the game is optional can manage to play this game?

Pedit: hi Andante, feel free to answer that question for yourself too please

so the progression is really just nonsensical. it's all softdefending andante by attacking pushes on her without a real read on andante throughout, to then voting andante for reasons that I don't think make much sense.

now the q is: is this scummy? maybe this is scummy

@klick pls interact with this

[Gimli]

VOTE: aureal

[Gimli]

obviously we need to figure out Andante

what's the rush?

I dunno, ask mykonian? He was getting very worked up about a 'deadline' or something. And the game hadn't even been open 48 hours yet.

I'm asking you cause you're voting me because of a rush, and you're just "idk go ask myko" like what?

VOTE: Aureal

YOU are the one voting ME because of said rush, and you don't even know what this rush is?? "Oh idk, there's a rush, just gonna plop my vote on the person not here right now, that's a real easy wagon to start pushing"

can't that be svs? it's a lot more theatrical looking from andante's end than her reaction to me or to klick was. with klick she was quite emotional, this looks more deliberate.

[Gimli]

I don't believe that Andante has genuine conviction in the things she pushes. I think the energy she has for the things she pushes is a front to seem like she cares a lot about what she's arguing about.

The thing that Andante does as town is she has thoughts off the cuff and presents them basically unfiltered. In older scum games I believe she has a lot of trouble imitating this play. In her most recent scum game, she imitated this by presenting lots of potential thoughts, but all at a surface level, without the *belief* behind them. She basically pushed whatever was convenient for her at the time, there wasn't a consistent thought process.

I think her play here matches pretty well with that. She's not posting as MUCH as she did in the last game, but the basic idea of 'I'm going to present this random idea I have and not hold onto it as a belief!' is still there.

I don't believe that Andante believes the things she's posting in the thread.

this is a post by klick that happens right after aureal puts andante at 3 votes. the first time andante had 3 votes, aureal also had 3 votes and andante was WKing aureal quite heavily. I don't think andante defended any other slot but aureal.

aureal votes her and it becomes omgus spite voting back. that was clearly her M.O. in this game, but I find it interesting nonetheless how the townread from andante to aureal disappears once the vote comes. it can be scum distancing the way it happened.

[Gimli]

now I'm quoting that klick post because the one person making this wagon happen from scratch is klick. this is further burying the slot right after aureal votes her. once the alisae vote came, the slot was heavily compromised by klick.

[Gimli]

and 1 sec, alisae? why did you claim? it's day 1, game just started

I softed a bunch and thought might as well claim in full to make it easier for those who don't understand to be able to understand.
I feel like the only reason why my role exists is because wolves both have my role and I feel like now that the game has developed a little bit, let's maybe introduce this part of the puzzle and see what happens next.

hmmm interesting, I honestly keep forgetting this game is so small, so I guess it doesn't really matter, probably searching for 2 scum, I don't feel like scum does this so early, so you're probably town, hmm this might actually be an easy solve.

myko and aureal are like never partners with each other

klick seems very different this game and not in a good way (he was town last game)

dats/ari, idk how to ever read these 2, I don't think I've read like any posts from them this game that stood out

and I'm missing 2 that I just can't even recall are here

here andante is replying to an alisae post and then making a solve that's missing 2 players. guess who? me and alisae lol.

[Gimli]

Spoiler: all of andante's progression on aureal

Aureal seems town

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Votecount

VC 1-II

Aureal (3 = E-2):

Herta, Wavelength, mykonian

Andante (3 = E-2):

Datisi, Klick, Aristeia

mykonian (1):

Alisae

Alisae (1):

Aureal

Wavelength (1):

Andante

With 9 alive, it takes 5 for an execution.

Co-mod notes:

- I'm also counting by hand, let me know if there is anything wrong.
- The combined mod ISO can be found here.

Also, what the heck are these wagons? I like Aureal, and I know I'm town, so get your freaking votes off me and go elsewhere

I don't like 128.

yikes. it's ok though, we don't have to agree!! I'm not saying 128 is the sole reason to locktown aureal, I just thought it was good idk

I like 151 from Aureal

can we not vote Aureal out before tomorrow? thanks

Do you not think that mykonian has basically reversed their reasoning for scumreading me with that post? Earlier the reason was that I'm just doing what I would normally do as town, not playing based off what I see. Now it's that I'm

not

doing what I did earlier as town. In other words, reacting to the game I actually have, not doing whatever it is I'm "supposed" to do because I did it before. This game is not particularly resembling that one. I don't think mykonian is reading the posts they linked with an intent to understand them, they're just trying to cherry pick an argument against me.

Also, did it occur to you that you also had the opportunity to put Andante at e-1 to get info on Datisi and Ari, which you also say you wanted?

This first paragraph is a lot of words to just go "myko is trying to cherry pick an argument from my posts" makes me wonder what the posts really were that I said I liked lol

it's quite a strong townread, then throws a bit of shade there. it only becomes a vote and a """push""" after aureal already voted there.

I know everyone can go back and read this progression for themselves, just putting it together nicely here if anyone wants to solve either now or next gameday using this perspective. I think it piles up to a strong scum case against aureal. do I believe in it? IDK. but it seems more likely to me that aureal is the last scum rather than alisae, and of course I'm still presently locktowning klick this game as we discussed it today.

[Gimli]

"strong scum case"
"do I believe in it. IDK"

furtiveglance would be all over you for that kind of waffling, lol

I'm presenting the argument for how you could be andante's partner. I've done that earlier with alisae as an attempt to show how a narrative could be crafted given er earlier posting to andante that makes them aligned. there's nothing either in your interactions with andante or in alisae's interactions with andante that make either of you less likely to be scum with her. in a general sense, I think alisae is townier than you are, and agree with aristeia that alisae was bruteforcing a death sentence scenario for er slot with er tunnel. I understand you're busy and d2 was brief, but I've seen nothing from you that made me think you're a townie working out the game and not just scum coasting and letting town eat itself up.

[Gimli]

See, if you had started out making this sort of argument I could probably feel better about you, because honestly I'm not sure why others are so confident about townreading me and it's kind of weirding me out. But doing it after spending several days getting into "no u" fights with Alisae and throwing out occasional comments about how you haven't ruled me out and their reads are shallow? It's making me feel more like you've had the argument in your pocket all along and expected someone else to go with it and you're unhappy that you have to make it yourself.

Also, that's all stuff Andante did so it seems to have been a scum attempt to pocket me/set me up as linked to her should she flip.

it shouldn't 'kind of' weird you out. if you're town then one of the players townreading you is a wolf who wants to take you to f3 and either have you on their side or have you flipped. for the last scum you're tomorrow's problem.

I never intended on spending days arguing with alisae and I think my posts made it clear that I found that to be unproductive, but IDK what you expect me to do with a slot that does nothing but tunnel since early d2. should I just shut up and let er call me scum constantly and plead to people to get me flipped?

IDK how you think I was waiting for someone else to point out the things I'm pointing out, and am only doing it now cause nobody else did it. I'm doing legwork on how you could be mafia after I was requested to do so by a player that shut me down and doesn't want to talk to me anymore. as I said I don't think you're mafia because of your interactions with andante, but given how you've been behaving as opposed to alisae, who's a grenade without a pin since d2, and klick who had to have heavily and brutally bussed their partner if he is mafia, then it's most likely you. am I painting that scenario? yes, IDK how truly svs your interactions were. but there's soft defending from both sides, there's hard defending from andante (and I don't recall any other townread andante had the entire game, just you), and your progression on andante doesn't truly make sense. it went from softdefending to voting.

[Gimli]

Hey Gimli, I feel like your quote wall misses out on a pretty important quote from Aureal relating to Andante

I can't see where Andante claimed this prior to the post you quoted

I don't think not reading is AI in itself. I wanted to make sure that's what was actually happening though.

Yeah, was wondering what prompted you to check. You have something of a meta read on her that seems to clash with what others say, so I guess I'm trying to poke around at that stuff. And I've been staring at this struggling to get at what exactly I want to get at so I'm going to just leave it there for now.

Alisae: did you actually vote me because you think myko made a decent point, or did you just decide to go along with the idea that it's going to give you info on Herta?

I think this post is really towny I don't think Aureal posts this about a partner
It's really waffly but like unashamedly so? I feel like it contradicts the narrative being portrayed where Aureal goes from 'defending Andante' to 'voting Andante, possibly for towncred'. It's the transition piece you're missing. I feel like it demonstrates actual thought on Andante's alignment and aligns really well with the thoughts in the eventual vote post.

she is literally saying nothing about andante here? you're effectively townreading her on a nothing post that could be perceived as a very scummy post where she asks dead end questions and then reaches no conclusions from them cause she is not trying to solve the game.

[Gimli]

you're squinting super hard to see a townie here klick

let me ask you this: are you townreading aureal over me? is your POE me and alisae?

[Gimli]

like she asks 'andante says not reading isn't AI, do you agree with this?' and then you say whatever you said and she goes 'yeah I'll just leave it at that' and you're townreading it cause it's too blatantly scummy to be scum basically. what's towny? sell me on this when you have time if you can...

[Gimli]

I'm not tunneling aureal

it's good to be talking this out with someone anyway

[Gimli]

the only thing I'm townreading alisae genuinely for is for playing d3 without any kind of plan. it went full tunnel and is committed to it in a way that isn't very smart for scum. do you disagree with this?

[Gimli]

Yeah I'm fine with this play from a scum perspective
Alisae is aware enough of the WIFOM/levels of play surrounding endgame scenarios like this that intentionally playing to no out to create one is entirely within her range

alright klick good talk

VOTE: alisae

if e is town and it's you me and aureal on f3 it's gonna be fun

[Gimli]

last time klick convinced me on a vote, we flipped a wolf

[Gimli]

I'm heading to bed gnight all

[Gimli]

It's just alisae

Good to see aureal obvtowning, only took three gamedays (to me at least)

Good morning team

[Gimli]

Re: who started being emotional itt, I only started acting out when alisae told aristeia to vote me cause she owed er for voting myko on D2. There were some parts of D3 I felt unheard and like I'm chopped liver.

[Gimli]

And all of his posturing about how it's so obvious he's town doesn't do anything for me. I know, I'm not very good at this yet, I don't need lectures about it.

Idk if it's that smart to respond to this, cause it won't necessarily help you with my alignment (and like I said in D1 I fully expected you to never townread me this game). But I would never call myself obvtown. I said I played a great d1 cause that's what I feel about my D1. I took a slot that was sussed by the masons and not TRed by anyone and helped us getting a scum flip.

What triggered emotional responses from me was people talking over me, not reading what I'm saying and not taking me into consideration. I feel like I'd be equally upset with that if I was scum. I've been upset with that as scum.

I offered my flip both d2 and this gameday as a reaction to alisaes tunnel. Is that good mafia playing? No it's not. But I don't mean to be manipulative or LAMIST with it. Everytime I said my flip would be good I meant it.

Of course, I don't need to flip. We can just win at any point now. Game's pretty much over imo.

[Gimli]

@aureal there is one thing I can do to help you townread me, actually. I noticed you received my suspicion of you positively, but argued that it looked premeditaded and like I already had that card to play and was waiting for the right moment. your ideas make a ton of sense but if you have time, I'd like to show you how my read on you developed throughout the game and especially in d3 after that changed. it's gonna be a little long, but I think if you do read through you're gonna figure out what to do next and we're gonna win, so it's worth the effort!

Spoiler: why I TRed you and how I started to SR you

I'll combine my thoughts on you and on alisae because that's really important in this stage of the game. I started my read strong townreading alisae, I felt e was participative and enabling positive conversations in the thread. I was also townreading you to some extent, but that was like 60% sheeping klick if I have to be honest. that started to change when in the catchup I saw alisae putting you in E-1, for a reasoning by myko that I don't think alisae, as town, would agree with. that made me go from locktowning er to putting er similarly to you. these are my thoughts after catchup:

I just played with aureal in a newbie and this just feels like it. I expect her to close down on people scumreading her, especially if it's for reasons she dislikes, and I view her reactions to myko as making a lot of sense for her and not scum posturing.

I was quite strong townreading ali and I still am, but putting aureal on E-1 and then going over mech the way e did was alarming to me. I wanna interact with the posts of er hardclaim because it might help me figure out what's going on, which I'll do in a bit.

then I started to investigate alisae. are my ideas about it potatoes? yes they are potatoes. but I was ignorant to the setup I'm a VT.

so I'm reading into alisae's claim with more attention now:

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

alisae is an informed JOAT. if there is another JOAT, then it's also a JOAT with messenger and fruit vending shots. @ali if I understand this correctly, if there's another JOAT in the game then it has your EXACT role, right?

alisae goes on to modguess that this means there's a pool of informed JOATs and in this pool there's scum, right? the first idea is already a guess, because you might as well be the only crap JOAT in the game.

from town!alisae perspective, I think it might make sense to out all this information as you hunt for other JOATs. being a 9er, it could not be horrible. what I really don't get is how you go from your role card to guessing there could be 4-5 JOATs. no one else claimed JOAT as of yet, so it might as well be the case that the only JOAT is alisae.

idrk what to make of it, I don't agree with ali's takes but I might not be understanding them.

myko has focused artificially on aureal as well, I think. like that scumread that scum never drops cause it's a safe place to go push so myko never felt like reevaluating there. this post from d1 I didn't like (didn't say it at the time cause I was trying to kill aristeia):

hardomgusing his primary pusher is literally the easiest move for a scum under pressure to do.

Oh my. Do I have a wagon for you.

Can I interest you in Aureal?

I think this particular scumread is concerning when there are a few people in this game strong townreading aureal and some of us might have meta with her, so I don't feel like mykonian was acting in good faith around this scumread.

at this point I'm writing you off as a townie basically because there are weird pushes against you on top of you acting a way that felt like your town game, on top of klick strong TRing you.

then there's the andante flip and we wave kill and the claims.

I start to think of your slot again here:

I don't think myko is lying about the lazy psychologist part

so the POE is now me or aureal actually and aureal is townier

I'm offering my head and aristeia is arguing we should flip myko. we do end up flipping myko, but at that point I'm leaning more towards ali.

then I ask us to massclaim:

so we have
gimli - vt
aureal - vt
klick - vt
alisae - informed fruit
enchant - mason
ari - mason
myko - JOAT

that's it we have successfully massclaimed

I think all vts are vts

I think scum is in (alisae, myko)

It's completely different from here where she goes into a vote on me without talking about me at all till the vote, then coming up with logical reasons from the posts where I accuse her without actually calling out why I'm stupid to even think those reasons could apply to her here. She's not calling out the evidence, but calls out that I don't talk about andante when asked and instead talk about her.

VOTE: aureal

klick, what do you think of alisae putting aureal on E-1 here?

the vote and what e is quoting. I think it's an extremely unconvincing case by myko, and he seems to believe it, but I don't believe alisae believes in it

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

both wolves have this role

VOTE: alisae

then we flip myko, enchant dies, come this gameday. what's my POE now? I'm locktowning klick, so it's either you or ali.

then I started to check your interactions. it wasn't premeditated or anything, I said what I was doing in the thread.

I started by pushing the narrative with alisae/andante partners. it made a lot of sense.

then I checked your interactions and they also made a lot of sense.

well my poe is alisae and aureal and I don't think aureal can fool klick so it's alisae

I wish she didn't dump a vote on me and left with a 'i'll take a nap' but I think her vote on andante looks fairly non partner-y?

I might have to re-read but really it's probably just alisae.

@ari: what was datisi's read on alisae before he subbed out? did enchant leave anything reads wise in the pt?

aureal's posts are pretty bad today

where's klick

there won't be an f3...

this is so annoying that if you're town you're throwing the game over arrogance. you're not attempting to sort me, you're not even reading back the game. I'm ISOing you and aureal and andante to see what jumps to surface, then I read my notifications and it's this crap. over an associative that's wrong you're tunneling me. how do you expect me to think you're town and catch aureal instead of just tunneling back?

andante was strong tr'ing aureal for most of the game

at some point they were both E-2 and she(andante) was really annoyed with it

then she started to walk back from that aureal townread

IDK what it means.

alisae spoke A LOT with andante. like, more with andante than with anyone else but datisi. and it wasn't for a scumread, it was for 'parsing out' andante, but all the questions were really softballs and could be construed to make it seem like they're unaligned and to help andante find her foot itg.

I wish aureal became obvtown at some point so I could be sure it's alisae but I guess that's not happening

it took me a while and I started to think you were scum, but you did start to obvtown in the last page or so, and I'm glad you did that cause I now I feel the only way we lose is by letting alisae endgame.

[Gimli]

I hope that helps.

[Gimli]

Votecount

VC 3-VIII

Gimli (1 = E-2):

Alisae

Aureal (1 = E-2):

Gimli

Not voting (3):

Aristeia, Klick, Aureal

With 5 alive, it takes 3 for an execution.

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-03-06 00:11:00)

Mod notes:

• I'm counting by hand, let me know if there's anything wrong.
  
• The combined mod ISO can be found here.

Me and klick are voting alisae

[Gimli]

thank you for modding bianco, you're awesome <3

GG town! well deserved win

I think alisae did the best out of a tough spot

hope to play with everyone again

[Gimli]

klick was fantastic btw

[Gimli]

thanks for hosting!
sorry partner, that first week ended up just being a mess irl, and I was panicking like “I can’t play exactly as I just played cause 2 people here literally just saw scum!me” ahhhhh I should stick to not playing mafia… don’t think I have the time these days lol ahhhhhh sad thought

hi andante I think you did well

the people playing this game are almost all of them just insanely good mafia players

you'll adapt and play better next time I'm sure!