~laundry~ FIN

[Nachomamma8]

I'm town. I'd like to drink tea.

[Nachomamma8]

EP is such a fine upstanding and noble host, right?

They are not fine, and they are not upstanding.

[Nachomamma8]

That was me preparing to barf @ frogger's "nuh uh I won a scummy!"

Yeah, well it's true. And I led the town there too. So anyone who tells me I'm bad at this will just have to get it thrown in their face.

<--------------------------------

listen to me sumbitches!

and this is why there's no more best town performance.
shame, people. shame.

[Nachomamma8]

There is something seriously wrong with Frogger here.

After this game you'll be 1/3 in reading me.

I guess MAFIACEPTION was the ex...ception.

this was a good sentence.
I think it would be a huge boon to all parties involved if you two tried to explain your reads on each other a tiny bit better.

[Nachomamma8]

no offense to either of you since I love you both but
"you're scum"
"no you're scum"
is an actual thing that happened here and all people who just chucked fuel on the fire and walked away should be ashamed of themselves

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't like Tammy's stance on SAD at all, especially as SAD was under pressure.

I have not yet read the game and am trying not to get absorbed in it yet. Would you mind elaborating a bit? Why didn't you like her stance/why do you think it was coming from scum/why was this pressure important (especially considering it was happening so early)?

[Nachomamma8]

He's scum for advocating a quick lynch on Arthur less than 24 hours into the game for shaky as shit reasons and because it would be funny to see my reaction.That's a real thing that happened.

You think that he was seriously endorsing a quicklynch?

[Nachomamma8]

digging for reactions is something that lots of people do

[Nachomamma8]

Can we L-1 and derphammer SAD. I want to see tammy's reaction to that.

ninja'd theres the L-1

DERPHAMMER PLZ

generally when i'm trying to encourage an early hammer I don't refer to it as a derphammer.
if he was trying to bait impatient town then I think he would have gone about it differently.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm happy that we're all moist again.
let's stay moist, everyone.

[Nachomamma8]

I guess I shouldn't have gotten in the way of you and Arthur,

Questioning is never a bad thing.
I think it got bad when everyone went from "hey I think that SAD and Tammy have a weird relationship" to "RRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH".

and no, fuck towels. I'm a moist man; towels detract from my image.

[Nachomamma8]

I think it got bad when everyone went from "hey I think that SAD and Tammy have a weird relationship" to "RRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH".

Fair.

BTW it's been too long. Was it Nacho or Notty who diffuses TvTs as scum?

I diffuse TvTs as scum frequently, but this was a move coming from Nacho the human being as opposed to Nacho the player.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Andrius

What bitter moisture is the taste of betrayal, Andrius. We could have had it all, but the only love you have for me is a dagger in the back.

[Nachomamma8]

dreaemrz - Drealmerz is as drealmerz does. He'll scumread me at some point for a difference in playstyle but there's little that can be done save be masons with him.
Pine - I mean you punch me in the heart when you say I maybe scum. But I think you're town. Strong early game, gives no shits.
MariaR - We're always waiting for the next season. The producers don't want any big moves this early. Also, you remind me of AGM a bit with the (apparently) you have a preference for MAFIA and there's less engagement here. But hey, we're talking atnd its D1 so maybe we'll stick it to the producers this one eh?
SlySly - Town.
Fro99er - Town because the big three are hating on him and he doesn't give a shit. Honey badget don't care.
Toog - Wow look he's doing things. And he's joining the gif brigade. Town.
SAD - Town for reactions to wagon and potential lynching at L-1.

All of your town reads are poetry; they aren't reads.

Drealmerz is drealmerz but look at us, we are scum together!

Pine is town because he doesn't care. Frogger is town because he doesn't care. Maria prefers scum and is less engaged and thus town. Sly is town because Sly is a friend.

The ADMIRAL ANDRIUS persona is not just amusing pictures; there's supposed to be an actual drive to solve the game and holy shit is it hilariously absent; I'm just sad that Tammy made it here before I did.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho - Nacholove I could write you an essay. All I want is for you to be here and do the reads and either lead or be part of the TOWNBLOC that you know will happen because you and I are here and this is how we roll. I want to see you interact with people and be human but I'm not getting the Nacholove vibes. And you know I can read you correctly. (And yes, I realize that the most recent game we've played was WEREWOLVES with PINE. I forgot about that one.)

Andylove what the hell is this?
"You aren't being human and you know I can read you, by the way we haven't played together in three years"???

What part of my opening said "not human" to you? Why do you talk about being confident in reading me now when you weren't confident in reading me when we were actually playing together?

[Nachomamma8]

And the moist crap only serves to inflate the post count and you've definitely been competing for that award so it doesn't help me out any.

And this is... amazing? Horrible? I'm not sure how to describe it.

Tammy is scum inflating her post count before because... she's participating in the moist minigame?

[Nachomamma8]

Look, I'm sorry for being an ass.

I don't want this to be a YOU AND I WALK AWAY FROM THIS

And sorry, I've already heard this song and am not particularly interested in yet another rendition; play me something different.

[Nachomamma8]

I missed the "I" so that last post doesn't make any sense at all,y apologies.

[Nachomamma8]

Every wagon that's become somewhat srs is one person outting a scumread and then just jumping on
I bet half of you can't even give a solid reason for half your reads

I can give solid reasoning for half of my reads!
I just don't have many reads.

[Nachomamma8]

Although I think it would be more productive instead of making a vague call out to call out people in particular and question things that don't make sense. Don't you?

[Nachomamma8]

Although I think it would be more productive instead of making a vague call out to call out people in particular and question things that don't make sense. Don't you?

That'd be questioning half the player list

Choose one.

[Nachomamma8]

Or, if you're feeling really crazy, question two! Possibilities are endless.

[Nachomamma8]

the tldr is one person sr'd sad and his wagon took off
same thing is happening to andy

What does my vote on Andy have to do with anyone else's?

[Nachomamma8]

Why did I vote Andy, Maria?

[Nachomamma8]

there's only 1 reason I'd be okay with and I know it's not that so
I don't really care I don't like it

Oh you're one of those people

[Nachomamma8]

not yet

[Nachomamma8]

No, no, someone who enjoys complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Nachomamma8]

What is sketchy about asking you why I voted Andy?

[Nachomamma8]

It seemed to me that if you had a legitimate reason to disagree with the Andrius wagon, that you would talk to someone about their reasons for voting. Then suddenly I learn you don't even know why I'm voting Andrius.

Why should I assume that you're trying to get anything interesting accomplished here besides deriding a wagon for the sake of deriding it when you're not even willing to look at why I voted?

[Nachomamma8]

Who is that a gif of? Connor?

[Nachomamma8]

Or maybe carter?

!!

[Nachomamma8]

Andrius, I will get back with you when I get a chance - this game has been thrown on the back burner a bit and I won't have a ton of time to work with this week so it will have to be of the short and sweet variety but I won't forget about you.

[Nachomamma8]

this certainly isn't a day where i will have time to work

Vote: Gerrygoat

free sheeps for Desperado!

[Nachomamma8]

I still haven't read his walls
I won't get to read his walls until later
my vote will serve the people better elsewhere for now

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know, man.
I could write for a long time about things that probably don't matter to people here/matter anymore but that'd be a waste of my time.

This isn't some form of betrayal.
Yes, perhaps I was foolish to think I could just pick things up where I left off with people after being gone for years and more time wearing a black tie than I wanted to.
But if I were to speak honestly from the heart we'd be so far off-track with this game.

So no.
I'll mortify the heart and do what I can for you all.
I'll stay here, as long as you let me.

I didn't mean anything out of game.
I meant right here, right now, that you drew scum and that you were a bad man and you were supposed to draw town for our mighty mighty reunion after so long.

I have nothing against you as a person; I'm not sure why our reunion is off to a rocky start if you are town (describing your perspective on me a little more thoroughly is a good place to start), but my words were not referencing us reconnecting to people at all and instead you connecting with the game per your alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

See this is just opinions.
I have my reads, which are my opinions.
You might think I'm bullshitting but that doesn't change what I think.

Tammy might be all happy to walk into the game but I was like whoa hang on there's something off here.
Doesn't mean she's not happy.

Like, you can call my reads wrong. That's ok.
But don't sit here and undermine everything I'm doing.

Since when is calling your posting fake undermining everything that you're doing? I also don't understand where I crossed a line here/what line I crossed; are you saying that me saying that your reads were poetry was crossing a line?

The problem with you're "hey there's something off here" is that I don't know where it originated from - why wouldn't you expect Tammy to be happy? Is how you approach your read on Tammy really directly linked to her happiness levels?

I didn't like your reads because there wasn't any heart in them. If you think that I'm selling you short, don't tell me that I'm insulting - put me on the correct path.

Things like "drealmer is as drealmer does but imma be a mason" - at best, you're referring to something that happened outside of this game that gives you an edge in reading him that you aren't explaining because...? There's "We're always waiting for the next season. The producers don't want any big moves this early. Also, you remind me of AGM a bit with the (apparently) you have a preference for MAFIA and there's less engagement here. But hey, we're talking atnd its D1 so maybe we'll stick it to the producers this one eh?" - I don't know what the TV references are about; what I do know is that your read on Maria seems to boil down to "she likes scum and isn't engaged so town!", which is again something that I think is objectively weak. And I could go on and on but I don't think it's necessary; I have no idea how "Andrius I think you're approach is fake" got warped into something other than a criticism of play, but that's all it is. There's no attack on you as a person. I don't know how the wires got crossed badly enough where my approach doesn't end in you talking more about your reads and that bothers me.

[Nachomamma8]

Look I'm not expecting you to be all GIVE THIS MAN PROFESSOR MAFIA.
I play in my own mixture of reads with a few specific tells I've picked up from being here long enough.

I don't know how to engage with you here because you're shutting down this entire conversation with NO ITS ALL BULLSHIT YOUR READS ARE POETRY.

Do you disagree with my reads? Or is it how I am presenting them? Do you think Pine is scum? Do you think Fro99er is scum? Do you think Maria is scum? Do you think Sly is scum?
Or are you just taking issue with my tone or presentation or something?

Because just going LOL POETRY is bull.

You play with a mixture of reads and specific tells; you play with a thought process that has depth beyond a kiddie pool, and you've known me long enough to know that I don't demand perfection behind every read. I find it funny that you don't know how to defend yourself from someone telling you that your reads are bullshit; if I call you shallow, then you show me depth.

No, I'm not taking issue with the accuracy of your reads; I very obviously have not been even kind of engaged in this current game. I am taking issue with your reasoning. When I read your readslist and you are explaining itself and I physically recoil from your reasoning, that's a problem. If I lost meaning with my attempt to be light then I'm sorry but my entire issue is that your reads seem fake because that's not how I've known you to read people. That's not how I've known most to read people.

[Nachomamma8]

I know better than to assume people don't change after years.
I would be lying if I said I hadn't.

Its like, I pretend that I can just pick up relationships after awhile with no change because certain people don't care about what happens in the rainy days, so to speak.
My words to you are an odd mixture of HI LETS PICK THIS UP AGAIN and OK WELL MAYBE YOU DONT or well maybe we just never had a strong relationship to begin with.
I would say more but the best example of this is somewhat on-going so I can't.

I mean.
You're here now, interacting with me.
So I guess I got what I wanted, eh?

My gut on you is usually right.
That newbie, both Xeno games we townread each other instantly but then allowed ourselves to doubt in the long-term, twice leading to my lynch in order to guarantee the win.
Its the paranoia that usually kills us. Well, me. You outlived me every time.

Maybe I should stop bringing in myself from outside the game into the game.
Maybe I should just wear the mask.

So the reasoning you disliked my opening and thought I was falling emotionally flat was... gut?

I'm not telling you to wear a mask. I'm not telling you not to be yourself. I'm asking you to explain where exactly this approach to me is coming from; maybe it's been too long and I've forgotten and maybe I'm the one being silly but I don't understand how you're getting to "Nacho is emotionally flat" when I straight up haven't been around and the few posts that I have made have depended more on emotion than anything else. I don't understand where the "you know I can read you bit" is coming from period - were you trying to throw scum!Nacho off his game? Was it just a way of saying hello that I misunderstood?

I'm asking you to open up so I understand what you are saying and instead I'm just getting a big ol' wall of lead and I'll acknowledge a good part of this awkward dance is due to time but you have to cut me a bit of slack and stop assuming that I'm approaching this as a criticism of you as a person - our relationship as people is considerably less complicated than our relationship as players (as people I've been to dark places too and I am not a friend that needs maintenance; once we have a connection it's there when you need it). As players, our approach to each other is an approach wrought with a lot of paranoia - I remember good reads yes but I remember crippling paranoia as well and so going "Nacho - you are not a human - I can read you" stood out as not how I expected you to approach me if you were scumreading me. I hoped you would explain your approach, say "oh it was just me trying to intimidate you" or "I have a different approach now"; I'm not trying to shut you out.

[Nachomamma8]

I can respond in real time but my goal right now is to respond to everything that you wrote and so that's what I'm doing until you tell me otherwise.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't mean conversation in general. But the whole YOUR READS ARE POETRY or THIS IS BENEATH YOU doesn't open conversation about it. You basically leave room for one to go "nope". This exchange didn't start with some "can you explain your reads? because I don't get lots of reasoning from you that I can appreciate. Can you use layman's words?" Both of you went straight to the "ITS ALL TERRIBLE/SHIT/POETRY/TALKING TO TOOGELOOS EIGHTH GRADE SPANISH TEACHER" which is useless for me because I can't help you because clearly you don't want to be helped. You didn't ask for reads or a discussion, you simply went this is terrible and below my perception of where your play should be.

When I scumread or I start to scumread someone, sometimes I feel like dropping the hammer. Sometimes I feel like being playful. The idea that I'm not opening conversation because I am not approaching it in a single narrow way is a shallow one, is a wrong one, is something that you know consciously or subconsciously is not how this works. When you talked about me initially you didn't go "hey Nacho can I see where your head is at?" you went "Nacho you are emotionally flat and scum", and that's how interactions need to happen - you shouldn't be worried about trying to foster a conversation because the only thing it takes for the conversation to start is "I think you are scum". You don't need to watch your tone around me or be worried you're saying the wrong thing to me because we will work through it just fine eventually and I think the assertion that I need to be conciliatory to you instead of playful when I feel like being playful is wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

How did you imagine this conversation going down?
a) YEAH TAMMY IM SORRY LYNCH ME FOR NOT PLAYING UP TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS
b) Ignore you entirely.
c) Some form of "NO, AND"

Because, from my angle, it looks like you don't really care about what I'm saying and more of you zoomed in on not liking how I'm playing this.

And since this is woven in with a response to me:

It wouldn't be at all unreasonable for you to go into more depth on your reads or explain why you're reading them the way you are. The Maria context that you gave in a recent response - helpful. If you don't have anything more to say, then whoops my assumptions were wrong we will work through them.

I don't know where you got that either of us "didn't care what you were saying" - sure, I adopted an aggressive approach but that doesn't mean that I'm not listening; even in Perpetual MyLo where both ffery and I were scumreading both heads of the hydra you were in with Mollie we

still

listened - that's the depth of respect I have for you as a player so all of this "they're ignoring me!" is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

Well if you want anyone to take this Andrius wagon of your seriously you might want to get in here sooner than later.
And yes I am totally ok with you voting me as long as you're here posting and being readable and making reads and stuff because if Tammy doesn't have a read on you something's wrong or something.
I would gladly accept a daykill to the face if it meant we got a decent post from you every other day or something.

My intention isn't for an Andrius wagon. My intention is to understand where Andrius is coming from.
As for my presence in games, unfortunately new schedule is kicking my ass and that has led to some fucking up, especially in places where it feels I have to work instead of play. It's possible the weekend brings a new Nacho. It's possible the weekend doesn't.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean.
I'd think you'd want to read a scumread's walls in the hopes of betting informing yourself of their alignment.
Especially when it comes to someone like me.

If my prod dodge deals with you and you and nothing but you, that means that I'm making you a priority.
If I could instantly download your posts into my brain than it'd be done already but unfortunately I have to set aside time or I have to make time and sacrifice sleep occasionally to make progress on a game which means that sometimes progress can be slow in coming. This is another part where I don't understand where you're driving at with your approach - I thought it was fairly obvious that the intention behind that post was "I'm reading Andy's walls the second I get back" but it's possible that my message was worded poorly.

[Nachomamma8]

I had no qualms. I missed you, and then you showed up and joined in the small gathering of (now dispersed) people who were basically like andrius is posting poetry/beneath his caliber of player so it was like, well what do we do here. There was ZERO engaging on reads. Like, if you came in here all Nacholove being "andy, I literally agree with zero of your reads. lets talk and sort this out." we'd be having a different conversation. But that's not what happened.

Me saying that you were posting poetry was a playful reference to Battlestar Galactica which is probably the last game we've played together. I wasn't going to break down your reads individually and explain why they made me uncomfortable because I don't yet have the time to do things like that but when I'm skimming and something stands out as that harsh of a red flag yes I'm going to comment and yes I'm going to push. I figured that my push on you would urge you to read me in a deeper way, I thought that a "your play is funky" message from people who used to be able to read you would be incentive for you to be more transparent for you to backtrack and explain where you were coming from earlier but instead wires crossed, broke, and burned.

[Nachomamma8]

There's a little feeling that you're scum because you engaged me and I'm still not a townread of yours and yet you're doing nothing about it. Scum-Andrius should be an easy lynch for you to push almost LITERALLY by saying 'ANDRIUS IS SCUM, I AM NACHOMAMMA, WE READ EACH OTHER THIS WELL'. Or at least, we did.

Like, you're literally calling me scum here.
Come at me.
Where's your vote?
Where's the call to arms?
I don't really think you think I'm scum.
Because if you're town and you think I'm scum this day ends with me dead. Because we aren't going to give each other free passes just for old times' sake.
I kind of think you're scum because you're scumreading me and you're after garryoat. Which is cool. Bus away. I'm more than willing to lynch him because he's scum and/or as a policy lynch. We can call it whatever you like. He's scum and needs death.

Except hey I don't have time and no I'm not comfortable with you being lynched.
I'm not going to go FULL STEAM AHEAD when we haven't played together in years and you are responding to posts, and yes, sometimes I will vote one place while I'm having intense conversations in another. I'm not going to be comfortable with powerlynching you when there's still a lot on the table to sort. If I was comfortable with powerlynching you, you'd know and Tammy would know and SlySly would know and VasudeVa would know because it would be time and I would let the people know. Now is not the time.

[Nachomamma8]

I will be alive tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

As much as it depresses me nacho is probably scum for just whistling by all that too.

You're 100% right that I'm abandoning you in this game and I'm sorry for that. This game is a miserable, annoying slog and I have been playing with replacing out because it is a miserable, annoying slog.

[Nachomamma8]

No I'm not saying either of you were.
Was more of a how else is this supposed to work out *lists options*.

The easy way for things to work out is for you to just talk of us without all of this additional mess.

As I pointed out before, there was an easy, painless way to sort through it all which was explain where you were coming from - as in if you attack me and tell that my reads are shallow my response is going to be that either I don't think they're shallow/they're shallow for a reason/something, not

you are attacking me as a person

. I think that right now that this is a massive lead wall in the way of communication between you and I and Tammy and if we can't break through it here then I'm probably getting out of here and talking about it when I have distance from it all.

In this specific situation, my problem is that we came to you telling that you weren't playing up to expectations. Why is that statement unreasonable, why is it rude, why is it an affront to you as a player? You know that we haven't played in a while but hey expectations still exist - when I'm playing with you I'm expecting you to post reads that are a bit more fleshed out than that reads list was. I mean, hell, maybe I'm just incredibly off in my expectations in the new you and that's a readjustment period even so it's just a readjustment period - the approach that would have helped me most there would be telling me that I was off and nothing more - you know me better than a person who would attack you as a person.

[Nachomamma8]

If the game is slog, that's because your effort in it has been such.

If the game's been a slog, it's because two people who I love are fighting and because I haven't been able to build up the gumption to post and separate and parse through it being parsing through it hurts. If the game's been a slog, it's for reasons you don't understand - I understand that Andrius is your friend and you feel inclined to protect him but all things like this accomplish is twisting a knife where it doesn't need to be twisted.

[Nachomamma8]

I want Tammy lynched.

Right now, the reasons I know you want Tammy lynched is because she's been aggressive towards Andrius. Is that the extent of it?

[Nachomamma8]

I get busy.
Don't want this falling by the wayside with some convenient both of you are super busy oh darn that scumandrius snuck by us again.

Based on the way that I play, this isn't happening; people like you don't "sneak by", you either destroy me completely or you get destroyed. I'm sure if we're both town here then a moment of mutual meltdown is sure to occur in the future because that's how things have a way of happening, but I don't have it in me to go through this for another day. Rebuilding whatever is broken between all of us is sure to take time and understanding and quelling of feelings for a moment to listen but if it can't happen then I'm not playing.

[Nachomamma8]

quote her being rude

You can't be serious. If you are, just start at 785.

Hey Sly - you told me that I don't know how to play and have fun.
Is this part of having fun? Is it productive to the game?

Tell me why you want to lynch Tammy. Leave the dark emotions out of it.

[Nachomamma8]

Given your propensity towards lying in STRAHD, don't mind me if I don't necessarily take this at face value.

I do think that Pine's opening is probably more likely to be town than scum; it's not a significant read but it reminds me of a Mastina opening; it limits his fakeclaim options in a pretty weird way (unless he's willing to take completely unnecessary heat) and it's not a good way to limit fakeclaims when he doesn't really have any idea of the town roles that he's up against.

[Nachomamma8]

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Keep going.

We've talked about 785 already; in 785, it was clarified that Andrius's reads weren't as in depth or well reasoned as Tammy (or I) expected them to be. Is this rude? Is this an attack on his character?

It seems to me like you're reading a quarter of the situation and understanding an eighth of it; I again, understand that you're probably coming from a good place and see Andrius being frustrated and want to help ease that frustration but the approach you're taking now just isn't helping; at best you're antagonizing the other side and pushing Tammy/Andrius apart and that certainly won't help him at all. It doesn't help him to feel like someone hates him and it doesn't help for him to feel like he's hurting someone else; the only way to move past it is by understanding what's going on and being open to both sides, not chucking fuel into the fire.

Why do you want to lynch Tammy?

[Nachomamma8]

Which is, frankly, a stupid thing to put into role pms but whatever it doesn't add anything to the game and basically encourages spam/shit/empty posting as EP realized because he TOLD US NOT TO SPAM POST THE WORDS.

Telling Tammy that she's putting Moist into her words and that somehow is making the game less fun and impossible to play is ridiculous. It's not playing the game, it's attacking Tammy. If he wasn't attacking Tammy specifically, why didn't he call out any of the 10 other people who put Moist into their words? Why did he single out Tammy?

[Nachomamma8]

Because I feel like you're being unnecessarily pissy about this whole thing.

Telling someone they're being unnecessarily pissy isn't "playing the game". If you tell someone that they're being unnecessarily pissy, the response you're getting back isn't going to be happy happy joy joy BRO FISTS.

Again, Sly, I know that you are defending Andrius because he is your friend and you like him. I understand that. But there have been missteps and hurt feelings and lashing out on both sides, and picking a horse and backing it isn't helping either side. If you care about Andrius, stop twisting the knife and help the game move past this.

[Nachomamma8]

That is the scummiest retort you could have made Andrius. Really below your caliber as a player.

Disappointing.

Should I be mad? Are you trying to provoke me? What is the point of this. Because I feel like you're being unnecessarily pissy about this whole thing.

And look.
You said that 785 wasn't necessarily rude, this is the response it got.
This isn't the beginning to healthy communication, this isn't the beginning to a healthy and meaningful relationship, so don't pretend that all of it is one-sided because you aren't helping Andrius by doing so.

So, again.
Why do you want to lynch Tammy?

[Nachomamma8]

You're 100% right that I'm abandoning you in this game and I'm sorry for that. This game is a miserable, annoying slog and I have been playing with replacing out because it is a miserable, annoying slog.

If the game is slog, that's because your effort in it has been such.

I called the game a slog.
In the post immediately after mine, you said that "if the game was a slog, it's because my effort has been such".
You weren't talking to me, Sly?

[Nachomamma8]

Why do I want Tammy lynched? Andrius is my top TR. Her attack on him makes her my top SR.

Oh, and someone attacking your top TR immediately makes them scum?
You don't think that people have the capacity of being wrong?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here to have fun first, and I know Andrius is too. He's my friend, yes, but that's NAI.

If you're here to have fun, then stop twisting the knife.
How difficult is it to understand that the situation that we're experiencing is not fun and the real grand way to make the situation die down a little bit is by stopping blaming it on one side entirely?

[Nachomamma8]

In that part, I was singling you out. You haven't seemed as connected/active as I remember you being. It's been years, maybe you've evolved into a different player than I remember.

You're right on that. My post saying that you told me I didn't know how to have fun was referring to that post in particular; if you meant something else by it, then I didn't understand your meaning.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm here to have fun first, and I know Andrius is too. He's my friend, yes, but that's NAI.

If you're here to have fun, then stop twisting the knife.
How difficult is it to understand that the situation that we're experiencing is not fun and the real grand way to make the situation die down a little bit is by stopping blaming it on one side entirely?

I know everyone that was part of the wine gathering last night was having fun. It was probably the most fun I've ever had in a night of mafia. Sorry you weren't here to enjoy it with us.

I'm glad that you guys had that moment together; it's awesome when people can come together like that in mafia. I hope that the moment in the wine gathering can be repeated, duplicated in the future with more people; I'm more than willing to drink and fluff for however many pages once we moved past that. But three people having fun doesn't mean that the

game

is fun, and this game isn't going to be anything but poisoned from your friend Andrius until we move past that, and you STILL aren't helping us move past that.
Do you understand why I keep saying that to you?

[Nachomamma8]

You don't think that people have the capacity of being wrong?

I know people have the capacity to be wrong. I'm wrong a lot.

So are other people!
So, Tammy being wrong on Andrius doesn't make her 100% scum. There's a possibility on you being wrong on Andrius which again doesn't make her 100% scum. You shouldn't be scumreading people on being right or wrong when as of this moment we know nothing; if you think that her push on Andrius is scummy, then explain why, quit just lashing out on her because it isn't helping Andrius.

[Nachomamma8]

then go have fun in general discussion

you all literally produced 12 pages of nothing. in a page that is already 70 pages of mostly nothing.

and you're talking about tammy being antitown?

lmao

We sorted gerry.

Okay. But it didn't take 12 pages to sort gerry and every single post you all made together wasn't sorting gerry.
The reason that this bothers Tammy and Desperado is because part of Andrius's opening was Andrius attacking Tammy for including "moist" in her words, which was "spamposting" and "unnecessary clutter" to the game.

Do you think that piece of Andrius's reasoning on Tammy was reasonable?

[Nachomamma8]

None of my posting is meant to push back against the connection you have with Andrius or the Wine Posting Party in general - I don't mind people fluffing up the game to their hearts extent and connecting in game threads in general. I don't think that Andrius is a bad person. I've had a lot of fun with Andrius in our prime, I love his writing style, I love the way he sees the world. The interaction that should have happened is more of a strike, parry, strike, parry, hug it out. The interaction that happened was instead an absolute and complete clusterfuck. I'm trying to move past it. I need you to help me move past it whether that takes you backing away or opening your eyes a little more.

[Nachomamma8]

Caught up yet?

Desperado noted that FB was defending him.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

[Nachomamma8]

Like seriously.
Why do you claim scum like this?
I don't get it. I really don't.
Fire all I want is this game to be great and maybe just maybe we can be something uniquely amazing.
But if you're a scumbucket then you need death.

I don't think that "Fire claimed scum" thus "Fire = scum" is a particularly compelling argument; I feel like Fire's "spam posting" this game and frustration when being pushed is outside of his scum range. I really don't think his PR claiming shenanigans come from Fire as scum either, but that's on account of my experience with scum!bringer is not being particularly impressed; he doesn't seem like the type who can bring that sort of fire (heh) and engagement as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

He made reads lists I thought looked fake - I am fully within my rights as a player to think they look fake and point it out.

You are absolutely entitled to say whatever you want and everyone else is also entitled to point out what they think looks rude and insulting.

Why do you insist on prodding on this still?
Stop.

[Nachomamma8]

The hate is clear. If you can't see it, you're her scum buddy. I don't need to quote it, there's been enough damage done already.

You aren't her and you have no idea what she was thinking when she wrote those posts. Stop.

[Nachomamma8]

It's especially fucked when she wrote a full wall explaining what she meant and your response is "Nope, she hates Andrius."
You're not helping Andrius. Stop.

[Nachomamma8]

It's especially fucked when she wrote a full wall explaining what she meant and your response is "Nope, she hates Andrius."
You're not helping Andrius. Stop.

Her full wall was rude and insulting.

What is rude about saying that the moist argument was weak? Do you think that the moist argument Andrius brought up was valid?

[Nachomamma8]

I think there are three votes on SlySly. I don't think he's mafia so much as he is just blatantly wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

How many times did she put say his play was not up to his standard. I see that as a direct insult.

How is this a direct insult? You've told me that my play wasn't what you were used to from me, is it an insult or just an observation?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you read what I've said about Drealmz as being friendly? I've tried to give Drealmz a pass for several games now. I'm calling it like I see it now, because I finally reached a boiling point with him. I see Tammy's words towards Andrius the exact same way. I don't know their history, but I do know she hasn't been in the recent games I've played with Andrius for it to build up like I have been with Drealmz.

Tammy is hurt because she and Andrius are friends. She's hurt because they had a fantastic connection before you came into the picture, she's hurt because she cares about his opinion and she believes that he's singling him out for god knows what reason. I don't think that's a completely unreasonable place for her to be coming from. I don't think that Andrius means any ill will by him because I still have faith in him as a person, but I do think that him attacking her for the Moist thing was weird because plenty of others were doing it and because Andrius isn't the person who complains about people having fun but that's what he was doing.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think that "Fire claimed scum" thus "Fire = scum" is a particularly compelling argument; I feel like Fire's "spam posting" this game and frustration when being pushed is outside of his scum range. I really don't think his PR claiming shenanigans come from Fire as scum either, but that's on account of my experience with scum!bringer is not being particularly impressed; he doesn't seem like the type who can bring that sort of fire (heh) and engagement as scum.

wait what game have u seen of mine that was scum?

Kids TV Shows, Gumball.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you read what I've said about Drealmz as being friendly? I've tried to give Drealmz a pass for several games now. I'm calling it like I see it now, because I finally reached a boiling point with him. I see Tammy's words towards Andrius the exact same way. I don't know their history, but I do know she hasn't been in the recent games I've played with Andrius for it to build up like I have been with Drealmz.

Tammy is hurt because she and Andrius are friends. She's hurt because they had a fantastic connection before you came into the picture, she's hurt because she cares about his opinion and she believes that he's singling him out for god knows what reason. I don't think that's a completely unreasonable place for her to be coming from. I don't think that Andrius means any ill will by him because I still have faith in him as a person, but I do think that him attacking her for the Moist thing was weird because plenty of others were doing it and because Andrius isn't the person who complains about people having fun but that's what he was doing.

Nachomamma8 is really scum here.

Because...?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think that "Fire claimed scum" thus "Fire = scum" is a particularly compelling argument; I feel like Fire's "spam posting" this game and frustration when being pushed is outside of his scum range. I really don't think his PR claiming shenanigans come from Fire as scum either, but that's on account of my experience with scum!bringer is not being particularly impressed; he doesn't seem like the type who can bring that sort of fire (heh) and engagement as scum.

wait what game have u seen of mine that was scum?

Kids TV Shows, Gumball.

did you even follow kids tv after day one?

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

Like, I fake claimed in that.

I did a PR claim shenanigans in a game.

It's not just that you claimed, it's how you claimed. I'm happy to explain it later but I'm not particularly interested in going through your posts right now.

[Nachomamma8]

Because...?

because there feels like theres a huge disconnect in your words and what you are trying to say.

I felt the exact same thing in the Order of the Stick game that I spectated. I thought you were scum day 1. Then I was like "no one putting this much effort could be scum" (i am a sucker for that).

Anyway, yeah. You feel like ur repeating those behaviors.

Where is there a disconnect between my words and what I'm trying to say?

[Nachomamma8]

I will be alive tomorrow.

i also felt like you posted this because u wanted to explain why you would be here tomorrow.

It was my explaining why I would be here today, yes.
I have absolutely no idea why that is at all indicative of my alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

Where is there a disconnect between my words and what I'm trying to say?

in the post I say "Ur definitely scum"

Nacho's words say _____
What he's trying to say is ______

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't mean that I'd be alive tomorrow (Game Day).
I meant that I'd be around and posting today (Real Life Day).

[Nachomamma8]

Like seriously.
Why do you claim scum like this?
I don't get it. I really don't.
Fire all I want is this game to be great and maybe just maybe we can be something uniquely amazing.
But if you're a scumbucket then you need death.

And, if it helps you, I've claimed scum as scum before.
I've also claimed scum as town. I claim scum more often as town than scum. As town I feel more confident in my ability to push people off from voting me no matter how deep in the hole I get. I enjoy claiming scum sometimes because it's silly and fun.

[Nachomamma8]

Desperado somewhat in the middle here. Slot will self-sort itself a Miller. The up-front claiming thing is town, but, again, miller play is so standardized its easy for scum to sneak in. As Strahdians know. Kind of waiting for him to do things unrelated to claiming at this juncture.

I don't think that Miller slots self-sort. I don't think that miller claims are particularly indicative in general.

What I can tell you is that from my experience with Desperado, when he's scum, he falls emotionally flat in the same way that I do. His pushes don't have the same urgency, he can't turn on the switch as quickly as he can when he's town (as in he has trouble transitioning between STRONG PUSHES TO STRONG PUSHES).

The points that he's making seem either reasonable or good to me; I can run through them individually if that helps you in understanding my read on him at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Pine is town. This is all heart. I mean, yeah, there's no reason for scum to not claim Hated if they're Hated, and if they're fakeclaiming it they get NOTHING since it matters little, has no established procedure, and can be tested and he dies. Town.
Sly is town. Consistency is the name of the game. I've seen you in one, no, two games and you're consistently town. Glad you're here, brother.

At this point, I agree with your Sly read more than I agree with your Pine read, but the Sly read is a couple degrees stronger than the read on Pine.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: Nevermind, I just saw what I missed to make me ask that.

Okay!
I could care less about your claim, though; your play is why I think that you are town.

[Nachomamma8]

There is, actually.

Why not explain?

[Nachomamma8]

You're also Hated though.
So thus enjoy some of the many 'benefits' of Miller-itude.

Two negative utility roles that are both town and both are "you impede getting the laundry done" is something that irks me out a bit and if there's scum in the pair, then it's Pine.

[Nachomamma8]

Why the interest?

Why wouldn't Frogger be interested in you v Tammy?

[Nachomamma8]

Why Tammy?

[Nachomamma8]

In general, this is my concern with the mechanic.
Doesn't add value to the game besides for more dreck which we surely don't need.
But apparently people are TOUCHY about this so whatever it doesn't really matter.

The moist thing was fun. It was playful.
You're right that it doesn't add obvious value, but it can create the companionship feeling and it makes the game lighter, which in my opinion is the same value that your STRAHD playfulness adds. I don't think that people were being touchy about it, I think that it was silly and a little weird that you cracked down on the fun on that point of time to spread the narrative that Tammy was indulging in it to pad her posts; it was light, it was fun, I don't understand how it dragged the game down.

[Nachomamma8]

From your list I'd probably wagon Pine/Zach, wouldn't wagon drealm/Toog/Tammy.

[Nachomamma8]

In general, this is my concern with the mechanic.
Doesn't add value to the game besides for more dreck which we surely don't need.
But apparently people are TOUCHY about this so whatever it doesn't really matter.

The moist thing was fun. It was playful.
You're right that it doesn't add obvious value, but it can create the companionship feeling and it makes the game lighter, which in my opinion is the same value that your STRAHD playfulness adds. I don't think that people were being touchy about it, I think that it was silly and a little weird that you cracked down on the fun on that point of time to spread the narrative that Tammy was indulging in it to pad her posts; it was light, it was fun, I don't understand how it dragged the game down.

I mean earlier I had plans to claim that I was the pile of clothes, a 3rd party who had to be the moistest thing of all and would die unless I was ranked #1 in the moist challenge and use that to get ahead so I can see if you were attacking me for that degree of shenanigans but Tammy's moist shenanigans didn't seem at all out of line.

[Nachomamma8]

Sly, how is your double vote formatted?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think I'd be surprised if any of my townreads turned out to be scum.
I don't actually think any of them are like SURPRISE-level material.
Maybe that's just because my care level is so low.

And it's hard for me to get a good read on you because I'm not used to your care level being this low. I am assuming that most of this is because of what's currently happening with Tammy and I would like to move past it so I can have my old, smiling Andrius back; I don't think I would be completely out of line to say that maybe your initial reactions to things were a little weird - you felt you were insulted and that crushed you and maybe that culminated in the mood you were in shortly after. I don't really know what more to say to you that is not game related but I know that we can all work past this and I just hope you're willing to give us the time to do it.

[Nachomamma8]

Then convince me he's not.
Because you're basically just going THIS IS A BAD IDEA without doing much.
Your involvement in the game is basically limited to trying to shut down a few select wagons that are town and little actual scumhunting.
And you interact with a select few people.
And I said I'm ok with this if its nothing more than a policy lynch.
Which it isn't.
zzz

I don't really disagree with your read on Zack here.

[Nachomamma8]

Shutting down wagons is not scum if he's doing it unbiasedly.

You can try to make the argument that he's doing it in a manipulative way, and I'll listen.\

But if the argument is "he has no scumreads he derails every major wagon" then that's not scummy. It's anti-town, yes. But it's not scum motivated.

I wouldn't mind it if Zach was actually making an effort to derail them - when he was interacting with your L-1 wagon he called it bad but then when you asked why he wasn't actually defending you he went "nah you'd call me scummy for WKing - oh and if I was scum I'd be doing something completely different WIFOM hahaha".

[Nachomamma8]

Pine, that catchup was all you're going to post today?

[Nachomamma8]

also sly you should probably put down a "Vote 2:" vote to prove that you don't have the doublevote ability now

[Nachomamma8]

See this just sounds like bull to me.
If I'm like Nacho you're scum.
And you're like, 'Andy you're off'. I'd be like what no. That's got to be the easiest way to deflect.

I mean if you were like ANDY MY (insert family member here) JUST DIED AND I AM SO OFF YOU HAVE NO IDEA I'd be like YEAH ACTUALLY I DO HAVE AN IDEA.
But if you just go 'no you're off' then that's nothing to me.

I was referring to the distinction in telling me that I was wrong as opposed to taking it as an attack on you as a person.

[Nachomamma8]

Because Tammy was the one I was scumreading off her tone?
Is it this hard to understand?

Like if you take Tammy's posting and replace her name with [GERRYOAT, FB, Nos] it'd be entirely different.
WHO says it is key.

I really feel like there's a disconnect here but I'm ok dropping this and moving on because this is our ONLY source of contention for a number of people.

It's hard to understand because why is Tammy being playful scummy?
Why wouldn't anyone participate in the moist game scummy unless they shared your viewpoint (or why did you expect her to share it?).

I think that this is still the knot that needs untangling. With everything else I'm happy moving on and backing off and doing other things.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I was gonna vote Sly until that gross BW on him. I actually read, you guys should be proud of me

why were you going to vote him?
why was the BW scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

Also Creature is maf. But how many votes are on him rn

why is Creature scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

gerry why are you scumreading creature?

[Nachomamma8]

gerry why are you scumreading creature?

[Nachomamma8]

Which is, frankly, a stupid thing to put into role pms but whatever it doesn't add anything to the game and basically encourages spam/shit/empty posting as EP realized because he TOLD US NOT TO SPAM POST THE WORDS.

This is more of a slight to EP than anyone else; he's saying that the minigame itself is encouraging spam posting and is encouraging empty posting. He feels that you're interacting with people for the sake of interacting and he feels that you're padding your posts with moist in order to increase post count.

I don't think it's personal as much as it is ridiculous.

[Nachomamma8]

but without BECAUSE's or HOW/WHYs this cannot get anywhere.

I absolutely agree with this.
But we're also not getting anywhere if you don't understand the intent behind my posting.

[Nachomamma8]

how many votes on creature

He's at L-1.

[Nachomamma8]

Which is, frankly, a stupid thing to put into role pms but whatever it doesn't add anything to the game and basically encourages spam/shit/empty posting as EP realized because he TOLD US NOT TO SPAM POST THE WORDS.

This is more of a slight to EP than anyone else; he's saying that the minigame itself is encouraging spam posting and is encouraging empty posting. He feels that you're interacting with people for the sake of interacting and he feels that you're padding your posts with moist in order to increase post count.

I don't think it's personal as much as it is ridiculous.

No he doesn't. It's personal but go kiss his ass.

That's not what's happening here.

[Nachomamma8]

anyway my reason for scumreading creature is from past experience from memory

so he looks similar to what game?
why? because he's been beetlejuicing a lot?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm literally THE ONLY PETSON he gave the smack down on for enjoying the game and pointed out it was because it was me.

THATS FUCKING PERSONAL

The reason that it was significant that it was you was because of meta expectations, not because he thought that you didn't deserve to have fun.

[Nachomamma8]

Again, I read it and basically went 'this might be scum tammy trying to blend in with the early game vibes'. The mod-provided shenanigans allow for yet another venue for people to commiserate over, sure, but its also exactly where I would expect scum to be. I see that and go 'scum are definitely going to hide in it there's no way they all sit out'. Like I would literally be ok lynching/killing every person competing for moist because there's got to be scum in there. NOT ALL, NOT MOST, NOT MANY, but at least one. Because its such a great place to hide in. Its mod-sanctioned so everyone knows about it.

I was hung up on it because it's something I disagree with and something I think is exceedingly silly.

[Nachomamma8]

What nets expectations? Huh? That I don't have fun?

The expectation was that you would try to blend in as scum and you going through the motions with interactions + joining in the moist game was evidence of that.

[Nachomamma8]

anyway my reason for scumreading creature is from past experience from memory

so he looks similar to what game?
why? because he's been beetlejuicing a lot?

wtf is beetlejuicing. And i feel like he'd be more in depth as town is all

Beetlejuicing is posting when people mention your name.

[Nachomamma8]

but I am going to blame slysly for now because it was getting better until he came in

You stop this tomfoolery right now.
Unless you think we're both scum in which case, sure, you distrust me.
In which case you'd be down with my lynch.
Which is still on the table.

I don't think that thinking Sly came in and antagonized the situation is particularly unreasonable.

[Nachomamma8]

In fact, I think it's exactly what happened, regardless of his intentions.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm telling you I have a hard tom believing he has that role for a reason.

And I trust you.

[Nachomamma8]

is creature really at L-1?

yep.

[Nachomamma8]

I am of the opinion that Sly's making this all up but people apparently believe that crap..

?
This seems like an odd assertion.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't disagree at all with Pine votes; his entrance fell particularly flat.

[Nachomamma8]

What nets expectations? Huh? That I don't have fun?

The expectation was that you would try to blend in as scum and you going through the motions with interactions + joining in the moist game was evidence of that.

Well thanks for coming in and adding to the smack down on Tammy. Appreciate it.

That's not what's happening.

[Nachomamma8]

Creature can you claim dude, i dont wanna hammer you without fishing ur role

he claimed VT earlier when Pine voted him.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't know how many votes creature has on him.
i wanted to see if i could bait gerry into attempting a lolhammer

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho.

Am I a Townread or a Scumread?

Townread.

[Nachomamma8]

It certainly feels like it.

It's not what's happening. There is nothing in this world that would make me act like that.

[Nachomamma8]

There no hey why do you have those meta expectations, no actual telling him how so very wrong he is, no nothing like that.

You now I'm town here, you know everything he has said is wrong, you know his tonal thing is wrong, you know the meta argument is wrong,

But none of that just his ergo all issue argument he has with me is somehow valid to you.

I know that you're town. I think that his push on you is wrong and dumb and I've told him as much.
But right now, I'm trying to get you and Andrius to see eye to eye. I don't think that his approach to you was meant as a personal attack. I don't think that his intention was to hurt you.

[Nachomamma8]

Guys remember this post

Activating my double vote

?

[Nachomamma8]

There no hey why do you have those meta expectations, no actual telling him how so very wrong he is, no nothing like that.

You now I'm town here, you know everything he has said is wrong, you know his tonal thing is wrong, you know the meta argument is wrong,

But none of that just his ergo all issue argument he has with me is somehow valid to you.

I know that you're town. I think that his push on you is wrong and dumb and I've told him as much.
But right now, I'm trying to get you and Andrius to see eye to eye. I don't think that his approach to you was meant as a personal attack. I don't think that his intention was to hurt you.

What I want is to head out with you and eat together and drink with you but I don't want this dark cloud handing over your head.
Me explaining where I see Andrius is coming from isn't a personal attack on you; I'm explaining the alternative to "Andrius is scum" or "Andrius is personally attacking me" that I see.

[Nachomamma8]

Also Creature is maf. But how many votes are on him rn

Only if "maf" is the flavor for town, but I don't think it is.

we shoulda jsut lynched him for this forced line alone

i have no idea why this is even vaguely significant for you

[Nachomamma8]

\o/

[Nachomamma8]

He's still not at L-1, by the way.

[Nachomamma8]

The L-1 thing was reaction testing Gerry.

[Nachomamma8]

And I would check on the real vote count but that's 26 pages I'm not drifting through on phone.

[Nachomamma8]

Tammy needs to be removed as well.

[Nachomamma8]

McMenno + Sad + Sly + Gerry + ?

[Nachomamma8]

Pine

[Nachomamma8]

Firebringer

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah I'm still not doing this but don't think it's L-1

[Nachomamma8]

Beetlejuice lock scum die die die

[Nachomamma8]

Guys.

Creature wouldn't be this hard to lynch if he were Town. It would be a total no-brainer to justify lynching Town!Creature. We're not seeing any significant resistance, we're seeing interest elsewhere sans commitment. That says scum to me. I want to hunt off the Creature wagon when he flips scum.

This reasoning g sucks.

[Nachomamma8]

also i'm not sure when i will be confirmed town to someone here. could take awhile. it's not automatic

This addendum to Gerry's role doesn't look great.
I don't buy the "my role and flavor make me conftown" ---> "it will take me a while to become conftown" claim: it doesn't make sense for an actual role and I very sincerely doubt he's just misreading something.

[Nachomamma8]

Some of the possibilities earlier - Seeking Mason, Friendly Neighbor are now completely out of the window while the only thing that's still available is something like delayed one way seeking mason (that somehow isn't confirmed immediately). I don't like his recent push on Creature (all it consists of is quoting random posts and going "forced kill kill kill") and I don't really understand in general why the Creature wagon exists after the claim.

[Nachomamma8]

Nah, PoE like picking the playerlist, eliminating town and seeing who's left.

Thanks for explaining to me what PoE is. I never knew that.

In particular, why are you pushing Creature right now aside from the "he's POEing" point?

[Nachomamma8]

Why speculate on his role?

Even worse if you scumread him "I don't believe his role but this is probably what it is"

Part of evaluating a role claim is determining if it makes sense/could exist. If a bunch of vague pieces don't fit or come close to any existing roles, then the role claim doesn't make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

if you dont believe me, lynch me. as i said, i didnt claim because i had to. i did it because i wanted to. which is why your theory of me making up something like that is flawed.

So why does vague hinting earlier in the game mean you couldn't have been making it up?

[Nachomamma8]

why would i need to make this up on day fucking 1. i'm outing my damn PR cause it's optimal for ME. i didn't do it for YOU

What on earth does this even mean?

[Nachomamma8]

why would i need to make this up on day fucking 1. i'm outing my damn PR cause it's optimal for ME. i didn't do it for YOU

You're acting like you weren't getting any heat when you claimed either; you claimed on Page 66 when a wagon was forming on you. It's not like claiming before the wagon got huge means that you're lock town and I'm sure you know this.

[Nachomamma8]

why would i need to make this up on day fucking 1. i'm outing my damn PR cause it's optimal for ME. i didn't do it for YOU

You're acting like you weren't getting any heat when you claimed either; you claimed on Page 66 when a wagon was forming on you. It's not like claiming before the wagon got huge means that you're lock town and I'm sure you know this.

people were unvoting me. wrong.

Huh. Didn't seem that way to me!

[Nachomamma8]

nope. lynch me then. do it and then feel like a moron after if you're town.

Because I missed so many warning signs before?
Doubtful.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, you guys are misunderstanding. I believe his position is that his claim was irrelevant to the wagon on him and he did it for a reason outside of that.

His words say something different.

[Nachomamma8]

As I just stated I had 2 wagons that if i was mafia i had no reason to claim because i wasnt even in the top 2 wagons. No reason as mafia to push attention on myself or claim so early

They had one more vote than you did.

[Nachomamma8]

"Let's all waste our time talking on what someone who claims they can be clear's role is and try to figure it out instead of being useful and scumhunting and joining wagons like desp"
?????????????????????????????

He says he can be clear! Eventually.
But it has something to do with his flavor and his role?

[Nachomamma8]

Like if he's a seeker in part of a seeking mason pair then why the hell does it "take a while" for him to become confirmed town?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah but for real whatever this Gerry talk is leading no where he's either scum flailing or town who's delusional either case it's whatever for now.

Creature on the other hand flailed hard and then left thread.

I don't see how you can look at this and go "yeah, he's just delusional let's ignore it for a while".

[Nachomamma8]

I saw a SlySly wagon. That is dumb beyond dumb. Life would make a hell of a lot more sense if we just lynched Gerry; he's claimed a role that can't exist. And, if some weird backwards world exists where he's a delayed seeking mason (????), oh look, it's been counterclaimed.

[Nachomamma8]

Frog claim makes me slightly more amendable to lynching Creature, but watcher is a protective/investigative role.

[Nachomamma8]

I saw a SlySly wagon. That is dumb beyond dumb. Life would make a hell of a lot more sense if we just lynched Gerry; he's claimed a role that can't exist. And, if some weird backwards world exists where he's a delayed seeking mason (????), oh look, it's been counterclaimed.

Bus Creature please.

Hey, just for fun - why should I be voting him right now?

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Nacho, even better, bus Creature now, kill me tonight, and no one left will actually have the stones or competence to push you.

Hey, Pine, if you're going to launch into full jackass mode you can have fun with your mislynch without me

[Nachomamma8]

And wait, there's more!

also i'm not sure when i will be confirmed town to someone here. could take awhile. it's not automatic

He's not town.

[Nachomamma8]

Also Firebringer might be jailkeeper so not a good idea to rely on him protecting frogger tonight...

Where did this part come from?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho Libre, I already know you're mafia, no need to keep saying it.

I'll have to take a closer look at you tonight.

And I'm mafia because I'm pushing you, right?

[Nachomamma8]

I could get on board now with lynching Gerry and leashing creature to watch me.

If Gerry is town and telling the truth, all he has to do is claim. That's it.

[Nachomamma8]

That's literally all he has to do.
And whoops big bad mafia nacho doesn't have a leg to stand on and Creature instantly gets lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

But instead all he's doing is calling people who push him bad or scum. This is because he doesn't have a claim to give; he goes "yeah I'm just a spiteful person" but who the fuck spite holds onto a claim for days on end when the only thing he has to do to stop the madness is claim?

[Nachomamma8]

Literally tired of being lynched day 1 as town. Half of the people are voting me cause of my attitude and not cause they scumreading me. It's pathetic

You wouldn't get lynched if you claimed.
Confirmable town role and all that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not claiming. Because I didn't need to claim. It's your fault from now on. Nacho is scum so idc

my role has NOTHING. TO. DO. WITH. MASON.

It's not our fault you fucked up your fake claim.

[Nachomamma8]

Literally tired of being lynched day 1 as town. Half of the people are voting me cause of my attitude and not cause they scumreading me. It's pathetic

If you are town and you care about getting mislynched again, I don't understand why you're completely unwilling to claim your role. I don't know what you mean by you didn't need to claim your role; you're right, you didn't need to claim your role when you did, but it's not like people weren't pressing you (they were) and it's not like the claim isn't needed now (we're near deadline, you're in the running to get lynched). I understand frustration at being pushed for reasons you don't agree with, but spite not-claiming your role isn't the solution; the only thing you're doing is making yourself a viable lynch when you really really don't need to be.

[Nachomamma8]

If you are town, wouldn't your lynch also help Mafia?

I'm not claiming., You're voting me not because you think i'm scummy but for my PR. Which apparently everyone has. All I did was explain a bit.

all we're asking you do do is explain

[Nachomamma8]

U guys are grudge lynching him tho whatever If you go back to that wagon I'm not gonna say anything

who gave you the impression that we were grudge lynching?

[Nachomamma8]

what is your role name?

[Nachomamma8]

okay, halfway there.
what is your role name?

[Nachomamma8]

Okay. I'm not saying my role. Bye.

Why not?

[Nachomamma8]

But you're doing the same thing lynching him because of that -- It's not town to counter something anti-town with something also anti-town just so you can be even

I'm not lynching him because of his attitude. Never was.

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't seen anyone solidly identify the scum motivation behind his initial claim. I mean, someone tried. Like, he "claims PR" when his wagon builds pressure. Then he doesn't hardclaim. And expects to live. Fast forward to now. He still doesn't hardclaim. And expects to live.

He claimed vaguely confirmable town role when his wagon had pressure mounting. The scum motivation behind this should be obvious; if it doesn't let me know. The point where he should have hardclaimed was after his additional crumbs, which ended up falling in place in a way that doesn't make sense (do you think that his role makes so much as a tiny bit of sense?); the reason why he doesn't counterclaim here and instead goes "fuck you you're all terrible" is because he has nothing to claim. If he was really disappointed about getting lynched today, then he would have claimed long ago; if this situation was solved as simply as "he claims his role", then I'm sure it would have been solved by now.

[Nachomamma8]

What part of my push on him is unreasonable?

[Nachomamma8]

imo you have to assume his incompetence to a certain degree for the scum motivation to be there

and i don't have to assume incompetence for town play here?

[Nachomamma8]

and at this point yeah i'm fighting a losing battle and yeah i'm probably voting creature by the end of it but I'd love if by the end of the day one person can give me a reason for him being town that makes sense

[Nachomamma8]

I hardclaim PR. But I won't claim which. I'm confirmed town to someone here, even if they don't know it yet. I know that sounds confusing, but it's true lol

I think I know who it is, but I won't say who for obvious reasons. I'm fine with claiming PR because mafia can't do anything to me that will affect me except kill me, which isn't bad since half of you guys scumread me anyway

(all mafia can do is kill him but claiming is anti-town?)

ftr its my flavor and my role that work together. which is why i'll be confirmed town to someone.

im really town tho guys. when u see my role and flavor you'll see why i claimed

i said that pages ago, people are doing it to throw shade at me and setup a potential mislynch eventually. it's obvious

(this isn't what confirmable town says)

also i'm not sure when i will be confirmed town to someone here. could take awhile. it's not automatic

go ahead and explain how this is town to me SAD

[Nachomamma8]

For me, I don't even give a fuck if he's scum, he's not surviving to end game

don't understand this reasoning at all, especially when you're pushing creature as the alternative.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Creature

I won't be around before deadline in a significant way.

[Nachomamma8]

if he misunderstood his role PM, hey that's fine: out it, and let's move on.
i really don't think that's what happened.

i suppose "oh and it's not automatic" could be him backing away from a lie that's dunking him in hot water but if that's the case, again, all he needs to do is come clean with it.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you really think he's gonna go the whole game with no claiming.

oh hell yes he's going to go the whole game with no claiming
if and when the wagon starts up again it's going to be "fuck you guys lynch me you're the worst town i've ever seen and i've seen like a thousand towns"

if he's town, which is unfortunately possible, it's because he isn't willing to admit that he fucked up and lied (horribly misread but probably just lied)
if he's scum it's because he doesn't have anything to claim because he fucked up

[Nachomamma8]

I guess the only argument I can see about Gerry is that he has an important scum role and is just looking to buy time to live a little longer to make use of that role.

I don't even think it's that.
Like you said, he's not endgaming. I just think he's trying to buy a little extra time.

[Nachomamma8]

and I wouldn't be throwing down the gauntlet as hard as i am if #3144 didn't exist, either. if #3144 didn't exist then I could buy him misreading his role or not understanding it or whatever but #3144 doesn't mesh with everything else that he's saying and it shows that he's bullshitting about it because he's trying to buy more time. otherwise maybe he's just a bit sensitive and a bit strange for no real reason but there's no situation where "flavor + role" confirms him to another player but the conftowning is not instant, it just takes a while. that's a load of shit and everyone knows it.

[Nachomamma8]

It's that you're actively doing stuff that doesn't make much sense, ignoring important things, and are not gamesolving.

pick one.
explain it.

[Nachomamma8]

You'll notice that, with three active wagons, the only one that is being seriously pushed is the one that is on scum, but SOMEHOW can't get enough votes to seal the deal?

Honestly. If Creature were Town, with 2.5 hours to deadline, scum would be CREAMING THEIR PANTS for the free excuse to "compromise on a deadline lynch OOPS IT WAS TOWN WHY DID YOU MAKE ME COMPROMISE"

you'll notice that the wagon being compromised on is... creature.
so umm no this doesn't make sense but keep pluggin away bud

[Nachomamma8]

I'm disappointed you keep teasing me with this enticing scumread and then end up floating away shortly after; if you really think i'm scum then you know you're not getting anywhere if you end up constantly running away.

[Nachomamma8]

sly isn't scum though

[Nachomamma8]

Well, given that what I just said is mostly an opinion-based assessment of your general activity level, that isn't an especially fair demand. I can't point to a particular post and say THIS RIGHT HERE when I'm talking about larger patterns, now can I?

I can, however, turn that right back around on you, and demand that you prove me full of shit by citing examples of you making logical deductions, identifying pertinent facts/making observations, or attempting to gamesolve. The difference is that while it is almost impossible to prove the absence of something, it is SUPER EASY to prove it exists.

Ball's in your court.

"Doing stuff that doesn't make sense" - easy to prove by pointing things that don't make sense.
"Ignoring important things" - easy to prove by pointing to things that I'm ignoring.
Gamesolving - OK.

[Nachomamma8]

<3 Toogeloo

[Nachomamma8]

Tammy is 100% town, by extension Toogeloo is 100% town.
All speculation around them of "Toogeloo resisted the Creature wagon, they might be scum" is stupid. All speculation around them of "Tammy hasn't been posting enough or Tammy has only been posting when convenient" is stupid. 1) Neither player were in a particularly bad position yesterday, neither player is known for extremely high risk, high reward gambits as scum, they've been crumbing it forever, both look quite town individually, it makes absolutely no sense to suspect either of them.

[Nachomamma8]

I currently have no interest in explaining why they are town because it's a royal waste of my time; all reasons for pushing them (they didn't push the Creature lynch as fervently as we did! or Tammy faked her anger about me!) are dumb.

[Nachomamma8]

I currently have no interest in explaining why they are town because it's a royal waste of my time; all reasons for pushing them (they didn't push the Creature lynch as fervently as we did! or Tammy faked her anger about me!) are dumb.

[Nachomamma8]

And Tammy, I think that you saying that Andrius is trying to reignite a fight with you by saying that maybe your argument with him is faked is wrong; I don't think that he's the only one getting paranoid when he really really shouldn't:

I'm really starting to doubt the mason claim

It looks like a super hardcore gambit. Esp b/c creature was constantly scumreading both of them.

Toogeloo alone is fucking lol would scumread in a heartbeat. Only thing stopping me from doubting is my Tammy townread from her convo with Andrius.

I think you're pushing back against his suspicion unreasonably and mixing "stupid" with "personal". Andy doesn't have a personal problem with you, he's just currently lost in the way to read you.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, and I think that Andrius veering from "Tammy hates playing scum so much she pads her postcount with MOIST shenanigans" to "Tammy is more than capable of completely faking that emotional meltdown of scum" does show that he's approaching you weird as hell this game, but I don't think it's personal as much as it's paranoia. And if he's town, he'll listen to me and he will go through me before he reignites this stupid paranoia yet again.

[Nachomamma8]

One maf bussed at the end for sure. It was nacho or desperate

Pretty sure it was Nacho. He was super two-faced about Creature.

VOTE: Nacho

I don't think it's right, but it's better than a No Lynch. This has been the worst town performance on a Day 1 ever.

Also, *point and laugh at Toog*

I wasn't super two-faced about Creature. The push against him was garbage, I don't think he looked scummy and I think lynching a claimed Watcher on "with me, boys!" and "OMG that one post was F O R C E D" was bad play through and through.

[Nachomamma8]

And Toog, SAD? I wouldn't have bussed there as scum either. I'll happily bus if partners are playing like garbage, but if the only reason for me to bus is because there's a phantom case being pushed on him then it's not like I'll be intimidated by Pine going "bus your partner, I'll be lynching you tomorrow".

[Nachomamma8]

Tammy is 100% town, by extension Toogeloo is 100% town.
All speculation around them of "Toogeloo resisted the Creature wagon, they might be scum" is stupid. All speculation around them of "Tammy hasn't been posting enough or Tammy has only been posting when convenient" is stupid.

I mean let's be real you called the creature wagon stupid and were pushing a fucking obvious VI I don't think you have any right to criticize people who are scumhunting a million times better than you.

Same thing with you/Tammy getting hung up over Andrius, he's recently (since like middle of day 1 onwards) been extremely pro-town and one of the people present and creating pressure where as half the playerlist is lurking bloc.

Coming down the wrong way on the Watcher lynch yesterday is leagues different than suspecting the mason pair the next day because "TOOG DIDN'T WANT TO LYNCH CREATURE!" especially when one of the mason pairs is Tammy and she's playing an extremely obvious town game.

[Nachomamma8]

@ Andrius I will show as "not town" in reports that would otherwise show town

Once per Night Phase, you can choose someone to target. You will discover whether or not that person is aligned with the Town. If you target someone who is not aligned with the Town, you will die.

This makes Desperado more likely to be town; he has basically a 50-50 for whether results come up as "Not Town" or "Mafia" unless he did mod meta research for a Miller claim which is already veering into conspiracy theory territory.

Miller 1-shot Commuter

I will also point out that this role has on a whole decent synergy with the Weak Cop role and that it's an interesting enough role on its own; Miller is free to try to draw a nightkill and be extremely town D1, commute and know that a cop won't be able to target him, then D2 claim Miller One-Shot Commuter. I find miller to be a pretty odd fakeclaim to give to scum in general.

His early Fro99er scumread made sense:
He started the push on him for telling Tammy (who he was hard scumreading at the time) that she's 1/3 in reading him, which is fine enough, and calling him out for discrediting SAD with the "I used to do this when I was a noob" was also a fair point.

I obviously think that his early Andrius push made sense, it was made for some of the same reasons that my early push on Andrius was made, and I think that his tunnelfests on Sly and Gerry in particular looked town as hell; don't really agree with the Sly one but I'd be interested in seeing why people think that they're just faked.

[Nachomamma8]

The push against him was garbage, I don't think he looked scummy and I think lynching a claimed Watcher on "with me, boys!" and "OMG that one post was F O R C E D" was bad play through and through.

LOL

Where do I start with this.

But anyway you have the experience to prob know that more than half of what you're saying is complete bs are you just scum going for bad play hoping we'd write it off as you tunneling or something?

Trying to get written off as tunneling, yeah.
Is it working?