The real folk blues [Canceled]

[The Ascended Masters]

Who should I not be willing to work with?
What lynches do you want today?

[The Ascended Masters]

VOTE: The Ascended Masters

Sorry dude. I tried to let you live.

I'm not going to be railroaded into voting a counterwagon that I'm explicitly townreading.

Who should I not be willing to work with?
What lynches do you want today?

Expedience. Rachmarie. Aristophanes.

Then you're right, we're going to have a problem.

[The Ascended Masters]

that doesn't make my iso any less null

And the fact that they pop and defends themselves with "my iso is null and you can't say otherwise!!" is bullshit - this isn't how townies defend themselves. If they were town, there'd be something that caught their interest by now whether it be the push on them or something random. If they were town, the same confidence of being able to "obvtown it up" at any time like they possessed in Street Fighter would be present but it isn't because they're not town.

[The Ascended Masters]

Course there is a problem scum won't bus and not enough people will take their mislynch options.

Vote Kraska.

Why is Nos a mislynch?

[The Ascended Masters]

randomidget - kill
MathBlade - town
kraska77 - townlean
Varsoon - kill
Vaxkiller - kill
Albert B. Rampage - townlean
Radical Rat - kill
DiamondSentinel - town
Mirhawk - kill
Nero Cain - town
SpyreX - town
Klingoncelt - kill
Vedith - kill
Expedience - townlean
RachMarie - town
SirCakez - kill
Skrub - town
PeregrineV - townlean
davesaz - town
pisskop - town
Panzerjager - town
mhsmith0 - kill
Drixx - town
Nosferatu - kill
Killthestory - town
Cerberus v666 - town
Aristophanes - town

[The Ascended Masters]

Its the person, not the actions.

What about Nosferatu refusing to read makes him town?

[The Ascended Masters]

Cerberus, my approach to you yesterday was less because I was scumreading you and more trying to get you to see that our approaches worked very well together for early game.

[The Ascended Masters]

Ok, the fact that you have over a third of the playerlist as kill is not a good sign, TAM...

How many scum are you suspecting?

[The Ascended Masters]

So I'm scumreading or nullreading around 2 more people than you are.
Can you explain to me why that's a bad thing? Should I have townreads that I don't have?

[The Ascended Masters]

So I'm scumreading or nullreading around 2 more people than you are.
Can you explain to me why that's a bad thing? Should I have townreads that I don't have?

Well, I have more null reads than you. I tend to keep null reads almost until LyLo. That's another worrisome thing. You're already separating people off who aren't really doing much into a town or kill category. That's the biggest thing: Your strong opinions on people I find it nigh impossible to have opinions on.

Kill category and null category are blended into each other.
What townreads are you uncomfortable with me having?

[The Ascended Masters]

hey skrub you have shit to answer don't go running on me now

[The Ascended Masters]

Hi. Where the heck did this nosterafu wagon come from?

Who do you think is a better lynch between me and Nosferatu? Why?

Probably you. It's pretty obvious that nosterafu's wagon is mostly comprised of scum. The wagon fell out of nowhere and got 9 votes in like 5 minutes. Nobody has even provided a case on him yet. Everyone is just like "he hasn't done much so let's lynch him". I don't know if nos is actually scum and the people on his wagon are from another faction or if he's a mislynch, but I'm just not comfortable with with quickly that all came together. You're a better lynch because you're the only other option

It's obvious that Nosferatu's wagon is mostly composed of scum? Why? Why did the scum faction pop up and push through a third wagon when you were in the lead when I started pushing Nos and was the only real alternative wagon to me?

The case on him is not "he hasn't done much, let's lynch him" - the case on him is that he hasn't done

anything

, and when he does pop up the only thing he's doing is making half-assed attempts to make it look like he's kind of doing something (example: 2170. why would a townie who didn't give a shit about the game ask this question? if he was interested in it where's the followup where's the purpose? or here. why would he ask one person's reasons for voting a wagon that was already dead? why not ask why people are voting you (lead wagon he happens to be pushing along).

And hell, if you care about the case on him lacking, what are the good elements of the case against me? Who gave the case on me that you liked?

[The Ascended Masters]

@nacho: according to your list I'm a likely wolf, but you're perfectly happy to sit on the nos wagon I started. What's your head space here? Bussing? Different wolf teams? V/w?

I'm not particularly smitten with the idea of you as a wolf quite just yet. My major concern is lack of WIM; my expectations for town!you is that you would be a universal townread, kicking ass, taking names, and you're very decidedly not doing that. It's not enough where I'd be happy shooting you quite yet; I had you as a pocket wolf read earlier but I've softened on that since.

[The Ascended Masters]

I don't like that SirCakez read, but I suppose it's understandable. Definitely don't like that smith scumread and that KTS townread.

Those are the biggest 3 issues.

I'll explain them when I get the chance which probably won't be tonight if I want to get to bed on time.

[The Ascended Masters]

Still waiting on a response from Nacho on my other questions. He is a lot better at math than I am and I am trying to figure out how many scum we are likely to have in this game, it helps me sort out reads. Also if this game is multiball or not, helps me sort things out. And by that I mean two mafia teams instead of one, Nero I know you think an SK is enough to make it multiball instead of a single maf team and a 3rd party.

My guess for scum would be somewhere from 7-10 (6, 7 scum if a single team and up to 10 if multiball). I'm assuming it's multiball based on RB + Vifam kills last night.

[The Ascended Masters]

But you've been acting really erratic ever since the nos wagon formed. Like you're ridiculously desperate for it to go through and I don't believe that you believe in it. So basically the tone of your posts just rubs me the wrong way.

How have I been acting erratic lately? By "erratic", do you mean that I've been active and posting a lot?
Why don't you think that I believe in the Nos wagon?

You're also missing the part of question where you explain why it's "obvious" that there are scum on Nos and who those scum are exactly.

[The Ascended Masters]

what does town who don't give a fuck do?

Flake out, usually.

[The Ascended Masters]

Vax is drixx, rite?

DGB.
What do you think of Nosferatu's recent posts?

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm not focusing on bad play, I'm lynching someone who I think is scummy and I'm not giving him a pass for not doing shit.

[The Ascended Masters]

SirCakez I'm not really reading as town because he hasn't done shit but tunnel me and every time he does come in and tunnel me he just makes some weak shit well and fucks off again. His reasons for voting me aren't strong and the way that he's pushing me lost all of its conviction; I liked him more earlier when he was complaining about me ignoring pushes but that's gone down steadily.

KTS I don't have anything revolutionary to call him town but his reads are fine and I like his tone a lot. Why are you scumreading him?

Mhsmith0 I'm used to playing with off-site in a faster paced meta, so I've been spoiled by him looking very very town when he's town. His opening was a bit underwhelming in that respect, but I'm giving him room to step up the WIM, just not really townreading him until that moment comes.

[The Ascended Masters]

Go back and look at the posts where people dropped their votes on him and it becomes clear as day.

I saw people vote Nosferatu. Show me why they are obvious scum.

[The Ascended Masters]

@nos can you make it flaming skulls being juggled by a robot

Can you not be mean about eye issues? I don't care about the substance I just want to be able to read the thread. I am pretty sure you are scum but you don't have to be a dick.

That was a joke.

[The Ascended Masters]

It wasn't his intention to be mean or rude to you, he was poking fun at Nos changing his avatar by request and then DS commenting that his new one bothered him too.

[The Ascended Masters]

You're erratic because you're flailing all over the place and trying way too hard to justify your vote on nosterafu. Yeah you're more active now, but the way you're talking and playing is completely different from how you were on day 1. I know that a wagon is on you now, but that doesn't explain why your posts come across as forced and desperate. I don't know why I feel like you don't believe in the nos wagon. That's just the impression that I'm getting

"Flailing all over the place" - I've been responding to people's arguments against me, I've been pushing Nos, I've been... occasionally offering commentary outside of that? How is that flailing all over the place?

Yes, I'm completely different from Day 1. There's a wagon on me. Remember when you were completely different when there was a big wagon on you? Or did you forget now that the lynch looks more like me/Nos? If you think that I'm forcing a case on Nos, I'd be happy to see where you think I'm forcing it. Do you have any particular arguments that you thought were weak?

[The Ascended Masters]

Go back and look at the posts where people dropped their votes on him and it becomes clear as day.

I saw people vote Nosferatu. Show me why they are obvious scum.

Its not rocket science. One second he had no votes and nobody cared about him. The next second someone said "nos hasn't done anything so lets lynch him!" and then a shit ton of people popped out of the wood work to drop a vote and disappear. Its mislynch 101

Or it's a fast wagon 101.
Did you know that sometimes townies vote people and wagons grow really quickly? Like the Zanos wagon?
Wagon speed doesn't actually have anything to do with alignment; there are a lot of players in this game in particular who are amendable to fast wagons and so calling a player "town" for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with what they've done this game is typically setting yourself up for failure.

[The Ascended Masters]

This is the type of thing I'm talking about. You sound like scum trying to deflect things onto other people. I even said in that post that I was aware that having a wagon on you probably influenced your change in behavior. But I don't think that it completely explains why you're acting so drastically different

"So drastically different"? How am I acting so drastically different? Why does that matter?
If I'm acting differently than I was before, then that means... that I'm acting differently than I was before. I share the same alignment that I did yesterday. What point are you trying to make here?

[The Ascended Masters]

That's just not true

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66021

Look at the day 1 wagon. It was really fast. It hit scum.
There is nothing that prevents townies from voting a wagon into creation quickly. There is nothing that prevents townies from creating a scum wagon quickly. The "fast wagons are always mislynches" theory is based on scum somehow ramming through town mislynches by voting really really quickly which isn't really something that I've ever seen.

[The Ascended Masters]

That's just not true

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66021

Look at the day 1 wagon. It was really fast. It hit scum.
There is nothing that prevents townies from voting a wagon into creation quickly. There is nothing that prevents townies from creating a scum wagon quickly. The "fast wagons are always mislynches" theory is based on scum somehow ramming through town mislynches by voting really really quickly which isn't really something that I've ever seen.

In almost every game I've played there have been wagons that formed and went through quickly. And almost every time its a mislynch.

You've played, what, 20 games? 30 games?
Drop in the bucket.
Nos lynch hasn't gone through quickly, it did almost get halfway to a lynch quickly.
And I don't know if you noticed this, but there's a shit ton of resistance.

Your argument doesn't really apply here.

[The Ascended Masters]

Explosives if Mafia aligned would because Mafia have guns.

Except no because FA explicitly said that they wouldn't.
Gunsmiths being tied to kill flavor isn't incredibly unusual.

[The Ascended Masters]

Second, a mechanical PGO DOES NOT FEAR BEING INVESTIGATED BY A GUNSMITH...because the gunsmith dies when they do so.

And also this.
I'm not sure why "PGO = gun" is a point of discussion.

[The Ascended Masters]

But TAM at least is a real lynch. Nos is a shitty lurker lynch. He has basically no interactions to parce. Nothing of note for tomorrow. Everyone on the wagon is scum, self-preservation, bad town, and/or spyrex, who just wants to see the world burn.

Once more, with feeling: who cares about interactions? What matters is that the person we are lynching flips scum. The Nos lynch at least makes sense versus the Skrub wagon or the current clown car wagon on me based on... what, exactly?

[The Ascended Masters]

At the end of the day you're gonna look back and go "wow, Nacho was lynched for shitty reasons" but it's not like that's going to help you fix it and find scum, it just means you lynched me for shitty reasons.

[The Ascended Masters]

Except this is the same thing you did, you lurked for a WHILE then you came back and your whole thing was that you were in a lose-lose situation because if you stayed gone you were dodging pressure and if you came back it was lurker scum trying to avoid a lynch. Oh, and your first post in the entire game was "I don't give a fuck about this game imma quick hammer fools". So I'd say it's pot-kettle here at the very least.

I posted for the first few days. I lurked for 6 days. I want back to normal posting. The point on Nosferatu is not that he lurked period, the point is that he cares enough about the game to avoid prods and yet hasn't managed to do anything that resembles scumhunting; his pisskop read was weak and weird and his "mole + kraska" questions make no sense from town who ultimately doesn't care about the answer. I haven't been inspired by him showing up and arguing how his play is null; I don't think it looks town at all.

[The Ascended Masters]

At the end of the day you're gonna look back and go "wow, Nacho was lynched for shitty reasons" but it's not like that's going to help you fix it and find scum, it just means you lynched me for shitty reasons.

But they are the same exact reasons that you're lynching nos though.

So you're lynching me for lurking when I've done more than most players in the game. Do you know how nonsensical that is?

[The Ascended Masters]

Or are you lynching me for "not doing anything resembling scumhunting"? Because last time I checked, still been doing more of that than most players.

[The Ascended Masters]

Only underpressure

I did more than you did on Day 1 when I wasn't under pressure. I did more than most players Day 1 when I wasn't under pressure.

[The Ascended Masters]

I was busy for a week. It's not like I was posting up a storm elsewhere while lurking like crazy here.

[The Ascended Masters]

And I am also not lynching Nos for "only doing things under pressure", so I'm not sure where you got that impression.

[The Ascended Masters]

Also compare who is on the wagons. Exp, vax, Ari all kinda scummy and the guy who started the wagon is on tam's kill list.

Last time I checked, I was the one made the wagon grow, not Smith. I don't think three questionable people on a wagon mean that I am wagoning town and in general file the "look at wagon composition! you're lynching town!" since it's a biased argument feeding bias and ignores that town don't always lynch scum and scum don't always lynch town.

[The Ascended Masters]

Also now that family mafia ended, I can say nacho was nothing like this there (he was town and I also tunneled him there <.<). In that game he was active throughout.

Except during that 7 day period from the 8th to the 15th. And except during the 22 - 28th period where I was inactive here. How can you call me scum for strong manning a lynch when you just saw me string man a lynch in Family? How can you say you've never seen me prodded as town before when you *just* saw me gry prodded in Family?

[The Ascended Masters]

Like sweet shit you just got done tunneling me in Family and yet again you're breaking out the "I'm 100% sure that Nacho is scum, this is his scum meta, this is scum meta"? Learn from your mistakes. Having me as a scumread is fine but being so confident where you're tunneling me to the point of ignoring everyone else yet again? Why?

[The Ascended Masters]

The logic that he's using to take down nos is the same he's using to excuse his behavior tho. I agree he was legit busy but that besides the point.

My reasons in Nos have nothing to do with the timing of his posting, which is what we were talking about before.

[The Ascended Masters]

@ Nacho I still want an answer to my other questions from you.

What questions am I missing from you?

[The Ascended Masters]

Give me some town reads and some scum reads I am trying to catch up and there are so many genuine lurkers here and some people I have never played with before. I know you are a good scum hunter, far better than I am, especially early on.

Also with this many players how likely do you think it is to be multiball with two maf factions vrs a large scum team? Do you think there is a chance for a SK as well? So far in most of my large games with over 20 players, they have been two maf teams and a SK. Homestuck was the one exception recently they did not have MB or a SK after all. But it had some other really bizarre mechanics.

So far I have a couple scum reads and a few town reads but not enough of either.

The bolded part Nacho.

It's certainly either 2 scum teams or SK-Vicious + large scumteam, don't really know which one I expect is more likely. SK likelihood is typically based on moderator preference and FA seems like the SK type at a glance + Vicious fits as an SK just fine. I don't think there's a strong case for one over the other, though.

[The Ascended Masters]

I got mugged reading this game.

Sorry to hear that, that sucks a lot. Glad you made a smart move.

[The Ascended Masters]

I am a JOAT with several powers but no killing role. I do have an invention that I can give and anyone, regardless of alignment, will get it as long as the kill KTS.

Why put a bounty out on KTS instead of on me?

[The Ascended Masters]

There seems to be much more resistance to a KTS lynch than a TAM lynch. If Nos flips town

maybe all the idiots

will stop listening to you and start sheeping me.

Somehow I don't think this is going to happen.

[The Ascended Masters]

I don't like any of the wagons.

Why was my reads list shit?

[The Ascended Masters]

I don't like any of the wagons.

Why was my reads list shit?

It looks like you just rolled dice or threw names into the Randomizer. I just looked at it, it's still shit.

What reads in particular do you disagree with? Which ones do you disagree with?

Saying that my reads are shit because they are shit isn't particularly helpful.

[The Ascended Masters]

Your activity felt vastly higher in Family
You were open to other lynches in Family aside from elyse, not really strongarming

What game are you playing here? In Family I tried to push for Elyse day after day after day; I was not amendable to other wagons, I tried to lynch Elyse. When I compromised, I compromised on dram but iade it perfectly clear that Elyse was the only wagon I was really interested.

As far as activity goes, you're wrong. I ended up with ~300 posts at the end of Family, the difference in my activity here and there is negligible.

Here, I started pushing Rach, I ended with Zanos. Iade it clear that I was amendable to other wagons when I told Smith that if he made a strong town case on Zanos then I'd save them.

Your narrative of "oh Nacho never strongmans" is fucking absurd when you just got done playing with me strongarming. Your narrative of "oh Nacho never lurks" is ridiculous when you just got done playing with me lurking and I have absolutely no idea how you are still tunneling me with the same strength and conviction as a game that literally just ended; why aren't you reanalyzing when it turns out that your reasons are wrong?

[The Ascended Masters]

avoiding responding to his wagon when it initially formed,

If you tunnel me and are wrong and then immediately start tunneling me again for bullshit reasons, I'm ignoring you. Yes, it's harsh, but if you don't show any capacity to reanalyze or think then my expectation is that responding to you would just be wasting my time.

[The Ascended Masters]

nos way too many bad votes on it.

I don't like wagon composition tells, considering they're only useful if scum doesn't bus and your reads are good.

[The Ascended Masters]

huh? my point is we should follow procedure and give intent to claim because we have the time to do so. Only time when you can't give that time is if you are so close to deadline you risk a NL?

Are you trying for a derp hammer Ari?

Well

now

she's scumposting.

I would, mhsmith, but there's 2 days until deadline

How was this scum posting but the previous post wasn't?

Aristo, ~reasons~ is pretty lame evidence.

[The Ascended Masters]

Cerberus, my approach to you yesterday was less because I was scumreading you and more trying to get you to see that our approaches worked very well together for early game.

I meant to respond to this earlier.

So, if you're scum, it was Advanced Buddying, tailored for me?

That's exactly what it would be.

[The Ascended Masters]

And her "2-3 days left, no need to rush" thing is just awkward as she does indeed proclaim intent with a great amount of time left on a regular basis. Why is she okay with taking it slow and right to deadline here when as town she has no issue pushing for a hammer with lots of time left?

I don't really member Rach calling for an early hammer, but if she did, fair point.

[The Ascended Masters]

And wait, we're voting nos?

Seriously? Ugh I hate lurker lynches, he should be shot with a vig, not lynched.

Why? The "blah blah information" stuff is an inherently bad argument that doesn't actually make sense, is that what your getting at here?