Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Tammy]

Whew finally got some free time. Maybe if I lived at Hogwart's time would be easier to come by.

Not sure why Zoroaster or Zabriel jumped on Jason for voting Acosmist over a misunderstanding of Snake. Don't know why they would assume that he was scum because he didn't read the flavor or more importantly because he quickly jumped on it by voting. I don't really buy into the town-tell of not knowing flavor because those things can be easily faked, but I agree with KK that it did seem rather genuine. What made it genuine was his quick jump on it...not really sure where Zoroaster is getting quick decisiveness as being a scum tell. Jumping immediately at something that seems wrong to you more often comes from town in my experience.

The Acosmist PGO discussion is rather boring, but it needs to be had. BloodCovenent did bring up a legitimate discussion topic and I'm super weary of the people who jumped on him by voting him for that. Not sure how it's a redirection of the Jason/Zabriel issue, which should have never been a discussion in the first place according to Shahrizai in Post 34. Although it was silly for him to suggest a lynch by day three, but the fact is if this game is heading into LyLo and Acosmist is still alive, what to do will need to be a topic of discussion. What bothers me about BloodCovenent's suggestion, is that he doesn't actually give his perspective. He says "should we do this...what do you think?" but never offers his opinion on the situation. I'd feel loads better about him if he'd suggested this and given his opinion and then taken his lumps if he was wrong rather than bring it up and call it a serious discussion but not actually weigh in...at all.

@ Peregrine

I saw you take this same stance regarding the PGO towards Quadz in Otherworld. Did your perspective not change even a little, after the doctor derped and healed Quadz thereby killing himself and almost clearing my partner who had been blocked that night and would have been confirmed scum but for the added kill?

Thing is I'll trade not having scum kill themselves by attempting to kill a PGO over having the doctor kill themselves every time.

Wow that rapidcanyon self vote was superbad. Thoughts? Unless he's an alt, he's pretty new, maybe he thinks he's being clever or something? Hurm...

Benmage is reminding me of the game we just died in where he was town, but he always points out how perfect his scum game is, so I'll probably just wait for someone who actually knows how to read him and sheep that. One thing I do know is though, sheeping Benmage is not a good idea

Leaning town on Jason, and my strongest town read right now is Kublai Kahn, which is throwing me off. Normally when the only experience I have of someone is them being scum I have a hard time getting a read, but he genuinely seems like he's trying to read people instead of exploit things as scummy.

Support the Yates wagon though not necessarily for the role fishing thing. The line of questioning is odd, but what I remember from him in Heroes of Comedy is that he has a rather odd way of thinking/questioning things. He was scum in that game though so I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. What does bother me is his ready jump onto the BloodCovenent wagon in Post 36 without actually reasoning out what BloodCovenent suggested or why. Something about it just struck me as really disingenuous.

VOTE: Zabriel Why'd you quietly unvote Jason after Benmage asked you why you were still voting him and not vote anyone else yet opt to push the Yates wagon along by agreeing that he looks like he's role fishing?

[Tammy]

Support the Yates wagon though not necessarily for the role fishing thing. The line of questioning is odd, but what I remember from him in Heroes of Comedy is that he has a rather odd way of thinking/questioning things. He was scum in that game though so I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. What does bother me is his ready jump onto the BloodCovenent wagon in Post 36 without actually reasoning out what BloodCovenent suggested or why. Something about it just struck me as really disingenuous.

Nice open-ended setup to hop on to the Yates wagon when needed.

Your point?

VOTE: Zabriel Why'd you quietly unvote Jason after Benmage asked you why you were still voting him and not vote anyone else yet opt to push the Yates wagon along by agreeing that he looks like he's role fishing?

Look at Zabriels iso... Noob with the game over his head?
-I have a tough time reading the inexperienced. But I think the attempt at being coy (selfvoting) as a noob, is a towntell. And everything is rather noobtelling than alignment telling.[/quote]

He didn't self-vote. Rapidcanyon did.

Why are you rushing to defend people before there is a chance to get them to respond, and get a read on them?

[Tammy]

VOTE: Zabriel Why'd you quietly unvote Jason after Benmage asked you why you were still voting him and not vote anyone else yet opt to push the Yates wagon along by agreeing that he looks like he's role fishing?

Look at Zabriels iso... Noob with the game over his head?
-I have a tough time reading the inexperienced. But I think the attempt at being coy (selfvoting) as a noob, is a towntell. And everything is rather noobtelling than alignment telling.

He didn't self-vote. Rapidcanyon did.

Why are you rushing to defend people before there is a chance to get them to respond, and get a read on them?

My mistake on the selfvote. Iso still reads bleh. I'll make the read noobnull over noob town tho.

I wouldn't really call this a defense. I'm active, bored, freetime =activity. You act like this is the first game you've seen me... whats up with that?

Actually not doing that at all. In fact, I said you're reminding me of the game we just played in, but you're making me a bit more paranoid than you were in the previous games. In the games I have experience with, you actually seem like your trying to read people in a genuine way. Here, not so much. You seem more interested in making people appear scummy than reading them.

But, yes, you've done it twice now. Jason was questioning Rapidcanyon and you told him his vote was bad thereby basically negating his line of inquiry. You did the same with my attempt to read Zabriel. You might not be able to read people with little experience, but I'm pretty decent at it and you gave him an out by pointing out his start date and providing for him an excuse and an answer to the question that he didn't have to answer himself.

[Tammy]

Support the Yates wagon though not necessarily for the role fishing thing. The line of questioning is odd, but what I remember from him in Heroes of Comedy is that he has a rather odd way of thinking/questioning things. He was scum in that game though so I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. What does bother me is his ready jump onto the BloodCovenent wagon in Post 36 without actually reasoning out what BloodCovenent suggested or why. Something about it just struck me as really disingenuous.

Nice open-ended setup to hop on to the Yates wagon when needed.

Your point?

Why not join the lead wagon now? Keep the train trucking. Why waste time with that peasant vote? You can pressure him without voting if that's your little hearts desire.

Because I don't want to. Now you're acting like this is the first game you've seen me in. What's up with that? If I wanted to vote Yates, I would. And I almost did for the reason I don't like about Yates; however, I don't agree with the reason for the wagon building. I'm having trouble reconciling scum Yates with this line of questioning he's been going through. I would imagine he would back down a bit and stop being so insistent about it as it's getting him votes. So, until I have a better read on him, I'm not voting him.

Why waste time? Are you serious? It's two days into day one...on page six. There is no wasting time in trying to get early reads.

[Tammy]

Oh and if you can't read between the lines. I also found it scummy/you.

Ditto bub. Because jumping on the wagon after you've defended an action (rolefishing not coming from scum the majority of time) is so protown

Oh forgot...this is Benmage.

[Tammy]

Tammy, is yates your partner?

I don't have a partner. Don't be ridiculous. When did you get your super scum read on Yates, and what's it for?

But, yes, you've done it twice now. Jason was questioning Rapidcanyon and you told him his vote was bad thereby basically negating his line of inquiry.

Line of inquiry? The ship sinks. Thats how titanic ends. If you've seen it once you've seen it a million times. Whats he going to get out of rc's selfvote and going 'thoughts'... Jason didn't give an inquisition he just voted. Whats RC going to say? What makes selfvoting scummy in the rvs? Jason will go, gee I don't know. End of story. Lets get to the meat of the game. Jasons vote sucked. Any inquiry on selfvoting will suck.

In everygame people answer stupid questions not directed at them. THEY question UNEXPLAINED votes on people who aren't voting them. You should have seen this a million times.... Helll even KK had to be told by Yates to stop answering for Jason, because Yates was waiting for a specific response.

Point is..... IT HAPPENS.

(meant to walk away )

Doesn't matter. It's early day one, the questions and votes often suck and are for bad reasons. It's not that you answered questions not directed at people, but you actively went out of your way to stop people from getting reads by your interjections. I get it Benmage, you have this "I'm the boss" persona, it still doesn't make it okay for you to stop people from trying to get reads on people and giving them an out.

[Tammy]

Why waste time? Are you serious? It's two days into day one...on page six. There is no wasting time in trying to get early reads.

Whats your current read on Yates and how strong is it?

Why did you cut off the part where I actually gave what my read on Yates was? If you want to pursue this line of questioning fine, but don't act like I didn't already talk about where I stood on Yates. Now ask me a question, if you want to know, that takes into consideration the fact that I've already talked about Yates.

Because I don't want to. Now you're acting like this is the first game you've seen me in. What's up with that? If I wanted to vote Yates, I would. And I almost did for the reason I don't like about Yates; however, I don't agree with the reason for the wagon building. I'm having trouble reconciling scum Yates with this line of questioning he's been going through. I would imagine he would back down a bit and stop being so insistent about it as it's getting him votes. So, until I have a better read on him, I'm not voting him.

Also, I asked you a question. Don't ignore it again.

When did you get your super scum read on Yates, and what's it for?

[Tammy]

@ Peregrine I saw you take this same stance regarding the PGO towards Quadz in Otherworld. Did your perspective not change even a little, after the doctor derped and healed Quadz thereby killing himself and almost clearing my partner who had been blocked that night and would have been confirmed scum but for the added kill?

Thing is I'll trade not having scum kill themselves by attempting to kill a PGO over having the doctor kill themselves every time.

I meant to only give my thoughts once more, since the cat can't be stuffed back into the bag, so this is a good question.

I know conventional wisdom is, in the case of miller, to claim, so that the cop doesn't investigate you and get back a scum result.
However, by claiming your role as miller, you are also saying "I will most likely be the target of a cop investigation due to my scummy or anti-town play. In addition, my play will be bad enough to require an investigation of me over all other current players."

If you are going to claim PGO in order to save town PRs, you are claiming that "I will most likely be the most obvious town and the greatest scumhunter the thread has ever seen. This will cause watchers and doctors to want to target me, but I won't be so town as to draw the nightkill or the attention of a scum PR. Or, I will be so scummy that I will cause investigative or town blocking roles to target me causing their death, but I won't be so scummy as to be lynched."

So, as far as Acomist, it's going to be a claim and nothing else.

I don't know that you can lay this on someone though because we can never be sure how town/prs/scum are going to act towards you despite your best efforts. For instance, I've been a near universal town read in several games, but I'm almost never healed and almost never targeted early game by scum. But sometimes I've been killed early when there's been a lot of suspicion on me. You just don't know how it's going to go.

Acosmist won't be getting a free pass, if anything he'll probably have more scrutiny than he would have otherwise.

@rapidcanyon - your self-vote wasn't bad in and of itself. I know one person who self votes in every game. What was bad about your self-vote was the "thoughts" you added to it. It read off, like you were trying to be clever and try to generate discussion about your self vote which reads off with you now suggesting that if someone self voted you'd ignore it. However, you added "thoughts" to the self vote which means you clearly didn't want it ignored.

[Tammy]

Yes, and I was addressing your read about it. I probably wouldn't have addressed you about it again if you hadn't said what you would do to someone who self-voted. I wrote in that very first comment that it was superbad, and then said that unless you were an alt, you were new and maybe trying something you thought would be clever.

I don't care that you self voted. I know someone who self votes in almost every game, it's a pretty null tell. What struck me as off was that you added "thoughts" to it, like you thought it would generate discussion which yeah to me is Superbad but maybe you trying to be clever, it's not alignment telling as far as I'm concerned, but was jarring. And coupled with your latest post of saying you would ignore self votes reads off.

The self vote alone, nah, probably wouldn't have noticed it at all.

[Tammy]

Also, I asked you a question. Don't ignore it again.

When did you get your super scum read on Yates, and what's it for?

I read it. I don't recall saying I had a 'super' scum read. Did I? Anywhose, I purposely wanted to wait before further commenting on Yates (see how some things develope if you will) Off shitty memory, where you said you hated BC not for his proposition but for not giving an opinion. I am of the complete opposite ideology for often when I propose something I like to see others responses WITHOUT knowledge of my opinion to influence them. Also, I would advise not threatening me, you're lucky I didn't just say go eff urself on principle alone.



--As for your Yates read, You say you almost voted him for you "reasons" you disliked. You never list these reasons (I suppose thats what I wanted)...you don't really say how strong your read is or whether it leans scum/town. You only go on to say you wouldn't expect him to keep his line of thought/questioning. (Odd imo cause abandoning it may have cause worse backlash..but I digress) Anywhose it seems like your torn on him so I won't press it further.

-My purpose here I imagine was if you are or were torn what better way to strengthen a read on someone than see how they respond with an effective wagon? But yeah still early, so moving on.

You're voting for him and you asked if I was his partner...that would suggest to me that you had a scum read on him.

Fair enough on waiting to see what develops. I often do that myself, and with BC it's not that he didn't give his opinion right up front, though I will admit I framed my dissatisfaction that way, it's that he never weighs in again. So, he starts the discussion and he's posted in the interim and others have weighed in, but he hasn't addressed it again. That bothers me.

How do you get a threat out of that? You've seen me get pissy when I feel like I'm being ignored.

See this is where you're not reading. I said that what I didn't like, and what originally had me ready to vote him was his vote and reasoning on bloodcovenent. I hated his Sheeping in shariza and his lack of Trying to determine if what BC suggested was really scummy. However, his pushing of the Jason thing is troubling. I would imagine as scum he wouldn't keep pushing Jason, wouldn't call kk a douche for interfering, and would have maybe defended himself and moved on...but even after people were voting him he was still pushing his questions to Jason. But yes, I'm torn. I have an especially hard time reading people who have fooled me in the past, and in the heroes of comedy game I referenced, he was a strong town read but was scum, so I'm a little stuck.

But he's the leading wagon? Why join it when I'm not sure? My vote isn't going to do anything for the wagon or for Yates. Besides, other people who sheep things probably will and that will be interesting and I can watch how that develops and work on other reads in the mean time.

[Tammy]

In fact

Yates

why is your vote still on blood covenant. Why have you not commented on anything other than that and the acosmist claim? What did you learn from your Jason questioning?

[Tammy]

Also, <3 Tammy. With you and PereV here I'm feeling all nostalgic. :p

[Tammy]

Continue to feel better about Yates after he explained his BC vote and continued in his line of questioning to Jason. Glad the argument is over, but if Yates wanted to use it to make Jason look scummy he could have, and I think he would have, but he got the answer and said he felt better.

[Tammy]

Acosmist seems town, and his claim seems legit. I think the FOXDIE part seems like a good explanation to the role.
Right now, out of what has been posted, Yates seems the scummiest to me. His role/flavor fishing doesn't seem good, especially because I get the feel that he's experienced enough to know that that isn't a good thing to do.
I need to do some ISO's and stuff though.
More tomorrow.
UNVOTE: for now.

Of Yates seems the scummier to you, why didn't you vote him?

[Tammy]

@ kise - when I first started reading the game I got a knee jerk scum read on yates based on his Sheeping of shariza on BC. However, as the wagon started building based on his questioning of Jason, that started to lessen because I have a hard time reconciling scum Yates continuing the line of questioning when he was being criticized and gaining votes for it. It, however, did not make my scum read go completely away wherein I support the wagon for pressure sake. Will I support his lynch today? Probably not, but pressure on him to help me get a read, absolutely. I'm torn on Yates, even after I just said that I was feeling better about him, I was coming in here to ask him if BC was his pony right now why wasn't he actually pressuring him or commenting on him.

You say you're confused, you're no more confused than I am. Well, I'm not confused just in a state of self doubt. In the only game that I have experience with Yates he was a strong town read. I'm pretty sure I only started to doubt him a little near end game just before he night killed me. I have a really hard time reading people when this is my only experience, so I imagine it's possible I'll be paranoid about him for the remainder of the time we're alive.

[Tammy]

1. I haven't found a better target? I guess there's also the fact that I find his PL post troubling as well as his sheep with no pressure post [80 - when he claims I'm flavor fishing]. Right now, he's my pony and I'm sticking with him until I find a better pony. I was planning on moving my vote to Jason if he didn't answer right - but that line of questioning went sideways and I never got the answer that would tell me if that setup spec was Town or Scum driven. So that's hitting a dead end. Also, ftr, KK is the only one currently on my wagon that was able to actually make a case as to why he thought my post could be flavor fishing. I will admit that I didn't think I'd need to tell someone NOT to tell me their alignment.

Why haven't you questioned BC the way you did Jason? Do you have any updated opinions after BC's latest post?

[Tammy]

I'd say based on AVox's opening vote on Jason, that Jason is more likely to be town. I had a leaning town read that just got stronger with his argument with Yates, but I know from GvE that AVox looks for connections people make in RVS, ie voting a scum buddy, so I doubt he'd actually do the things he catches others with. I'm leaning to a similar felling, only less so, with the Yates vote.

[Tammy]

In the only game that I have experience with Yates he was a strong town read.

The fact that I'm not a strong Town read this game should tell you something, yes? Or is it just because you have a super strong Town read on me in this game which caused you to have lingering suspicions from a game that ended last spring? [Oh - I can have fun with this...]

Okay, don't push it. *shakes fist*

[Tammy]

I'm starting to feel ambivalent about zabriel, hurm. I don't like that he basically had to be prodded for content. The high thing doesn't bother me so much, but it reminds me of roflcopter using it as an excuse when he was scum coming up why bad theories. Though gods know I've played drunk before and not made sense so...

I originally liked his vote on Ben because Ben is one of the few people who gave him a pass, in that he lightly defended him though said he was unable to read the inexperienced. However, I'm also of a mind that it looks like slight kk buddying in saying that kk brought p good points against him. However, he's calling Nero town and saying that he seems genuine. Nero has been going after zab the strongest, not only that but he's also called Yates town, who has arguably got the most attention besides him as far as alignment calling. Now, of he's an alt as Nero suggests then these aren't very large town tells, but I would imagine he would be a little more worried about the wagon on him, not be calling his biggest pusher town, and maybe be pushing a wagon more likely to go through than benmage.

I need to think bout this one.

Pedit:hmmm...

Zabriel-I'm a little lost now. Before you had a scum feel on benmage and agreed with kk's points on him, but now you're voting kk and agreeing with others points on him.

What poins did you originally agree with KK on concerning benmage? And what points of others do you now agree with concerning KK?

[Tammy]

I can't say for sure, but I have scum feelings about people that should logically be somewhat clear by the AV flip. It wouldn't be inconsistent with the flavor.

Basically I'm willing to take a step back on some things, but I'm not tossing all of my scum reads out based on me not feeling that they're scum with AV.

Who specifically are you talking about?

[Tammy]

Also, Solid Snake is a main character, and one that we'd generally assume is in the game. I feel like it would be too ballsy to fakeclaim when somebody could very easily nameclaim and send him to the gallows quick.

God I hope as I read further someone corrected this^.

@zabriel

Sometimes mods will not include main characters (I know crazy). And also sometimes they won't include them, BUT they will give them to scum as SAFECLAIMS.

This is actually a pretty decent town tell.

[Tammy]

Hey TAMMY! Funny segment. Remember I answered for whomever Jason asked. And you attacked me... shouldn't Jay have attacked me?

Hey BENMAGE! Funnier segment. Remember when that's not how that happened? You told Jason his vote was bad and to move it when he was trying to get a read on rc. Then you answered a question I asked to zab when I was trying to get a read and gave him an answer to the question I asked. I asked you why you were defending people before they got a chance to answer for themselves. You said you weren't doing that, and I pointed out that yes you had twice now...once to Jason and once to me.

[Tammy]

Hey TAMMY! Funny segment. Remember I answered for whomever Jason asked. And you attacked me... shouldn't Jay have attacked me?

Hey BENMAGE! Funnier segment. Remember when that's not how that happened? You told Jason his vote was bad and to move it when he was trying to get a read on rc. Then you answered a question I asked to zab when I was trying to get a read and gave him an answer to the question I asked. I asked you why you were defending people before they got a chance to answer for themselves. You said you weren't doing that, and I pointed out that yes you had twice now...once to Jason and once to me.

Its disappointing that you drew a scum PM this game. I like Tammy town (I don't even think you like you as scum). You should likely NK me tonight.

PFFT! Every time I start to think you're likely to be town, you post something like this. I'm also a bit suspect at your reaction to IaI's request for reads. Don't you usually give a list of early reads, when you're town? Why the fit over being asked for reads in this case? Why aren't you actually trying to read people in this game?

[Tammy]

Oh, never mind on the reads list thing.

[Tammy]

Meh...KK does raise some good points about zab, but his inconsistency and not answering ever question aimed at him, along with him apparently not knowing about fake claims, points to him more likely being town. As scum, I think he'd be more likely be a little more consistent on things. I'm leaning town on him now and don't feel good about his wagon anymore. I understand neros frustration, and his position is one I've held lots of times, but he reads to me as someone who is trying to figure things out even if his leaps in logic sometimes are confusing.

unvote

Still reading jason, KK, Nero, and Thad as town and leaning town on zab, Yates, aco, and kise.

Eh...running late, I'll move my vote when I get back home after I look at a few things.

[Tammy]

I'm also a bit suspect at your reaction to IaI's request for reads.

4 suspects.. with reasoning...

4

... from a player who is part of the problem. The problem which I stated in my response is that too many players contribution has been so minimal a read or an attempt at explaining a read is nonexistent or waste of trying to force something that cannot yet be.

Tammy give me 4 of your top suspects with reasoning why, and say 2 top town reads with reasoning why.

I am having so much trouble figuring you out this game benmage. You cut out one part of that, the following sentence in which I said I know you give out early reads lists, which is what struck me as off about your reaction to him. You gave 4 suspects in that reads list, which you say is your draft from the other day, so you had them. If you were just taking issue with the reasoning part, fine, but I can't know that that was what you were taking issue with.

[Tammy]

Also, Solid Snake is a main character, and one that we'd generally assume is in the game. I feel like it would be too ballsy to fakeclaim when somebody could very easily nameclaim and send him to the gallows quick.

God I hope as I read further someone corrected this^.

@zabriel

Sometimes mods will not include main characters (I know crazy). And also sometimes they won't include them, BUT they will give them to scum as SAFECLAIMS.

This is actually a pretty decent town tell.

How so?

Ben explains it actually. He uses as a reason for why his claim is correct because he could be counterclaimed. Earlier he stated that he's used to smaller games, which would indicate that his experience with theme games is either none or next to none, so he's probably not aware that scum tend to get safe claims in theme games. It doesn't read to me as someone who is feigning ignorance, but as someone who just didn't take that into consideration at all.

[Tammy]

Fair enough. On your secondary concern, he asked you that in the post right after you voted for him. I'd imagine that's why he focused on you specifically.

[Tammy]

Tammy's 255, those were the thoughts I was thinking as well although her conclusions are either murky or I didn't understand them. While I do find it odd that Zab was calling his biggest pusher town, I did the exact same thing in a recent game where I was town (although my read fluctuated a little). I do agree that scum can call their pusher town as well so I consider it null at best. What I don't like about Tammy's post though is that it isn't clear what she was saying from the post, i.e. Is Zab town for having a townread on his accuser or is he scum for doing so?

Now, of he's an alt as Nero suggests then these aren't very large town tells, but

I would imagine he would be a little more worried about the wagon on him, not be calling his biggest pusher town, and maybe be pushing a wagon more likely to go through than benmage.

I need to think bout this one.

Would he be doing the bolded things if he was scum or if he was town? I don't quite get what you are trying to say.

I think he's more likely to be town. How he's handling the wagon could be personality based, not every scum reacts poorly to a wagon, and some town flip out at suspicion. I know that as Nero said scum sometimes call their attackers town in hopes of getting them to stop, but it's also harder to discredit someone's attack on you if you are calling them town at the same time. If he were very experienced in this game, this wouldn't stand out so much, but newer scum tend to not just call their attackers town. Also, he voted benmage when his wagon was growing. Two things about that stand out. Benmage had lightly defended him, and I would expect him to not want to push away someone who had been willing to cut him some slack. Also, there hasn't been much suspicion of benmage and there's pretty much next to no chance he's getting lynched today, so voting him isn't going to help his cause. I would have expected him to vote Yates, who I think at the time was getting some heat, or someone else wo had a better chance of getting some heat if he were scum. Individually all these things don't mean much, but if you add them up, I think he's more likely to be town.

So, just before the bolded I guess it would have made more sense if I added, "if he were scum..."

[Tammy]

Fair enough. On your secondary concern, he asked you that in the post right after you voted for him. I'd imagine that's why he focused on you specifically.

But why not just ask "why did you vote me, bro?" instead of asking 4 scumreads and townreads. Furthermore it was pretty clear in the post just above that ben agreed with Pine's assessment of IaI's earlier post, since ben voted him right after quoting pine and then said "lets do it". That seems pretty clear to me.

In any case, like many of IaI's questions in his posts (see his first post for example) they seem mainly to serve the purpose of distracting from himself, while also making it look like he's, you know, "scumhunting proactively" or whatever.

I don't know. It's not a question I would ask, but until his replace out post, I thought that they had played more often together. His "let me ask my best friend here this question" type way that he asked it led me to believe they had a history. I know that Ben will ask people for their three top scum reads, and I thought he was playing in kind.

IaI is on my list to iso, but what did you think about his replace out post? I thought that read fairly genuine.

[Tammy]

Don't like the zab wagon, and not loving the IaI wagon.

(Yates, I replaced into a game where IaI was scum after he'd been lynched. Most of that early part had been eaten by the crash by the time I replaced in so I didn't get much, but I don't remember him cracking under pressure. Jason was his partner that game, so he might remember.)

VOTE: melmond

[Tammy]

Post 245: And Tammy killed my weak townread. Because, yes, Yates's sheep is clearly scum motivated. What? And she is know using the AV flip to slap a townread on jason but not Yates (both targets of AV's vote)

On Page 10, break for now.

This confuses me. Do you think I have a scum read on Yates? If you want to think my initial reason for thinking Yates might be scum is stupid, that's fine, but I've interacted with Yates about that and more than once talked about me feeling better about Yates and why, and also why I probably will have some lingering doubt about Yates for some time.

I'm also confused about your assumption concerning the av flip, which is also incorrect and doesnt match what I said. I wouldn't expect AV to vote his buddy in his first post, knowing what I know about AV, therefore since Jason was his first vote in his first post, they are very unlikely to be buddies. This also applies somewhat to his second vote, so while this also applies to Yates it applies less so. I don't think either of them are likely to be buddies, but jason is more unlikely than Yates. That's why I said I was leaning to a similar feeling with Yates only less so. If Yates had been voted first, my stronger inclination would apply to him.

[Tammy]

@AP - You must chill. Your tongue is chapping my @ss. What makes you so 1000% sure I am Town? This is really bad because the only people that should know my alignment are mod and myself AND scum. I'm not going to highlight all of your posts but this feels like you are trying to communicate with your buddies and I have the uncomfortable feeling I am going to wake up dead.

I'm going to do this without looking back at quotes.
1. Sheeping shah blatantly on P2-3?. You are smart enough to know that you can get pressure for that, therefore unlikely to do it as scum
2. Your walls with Jason. You clearly cared more about jason's response than defending the growing pressure on you. You were willing to attack him with something likely to be considered scummy (once again, I know you aren't dumb so I don't expect you to 'role-fish' as scum or even pretend to do so in the guise of scumhunting)
3. AV's vote was parked on you when he died. I find it unlikely scum adds to the pressure you were getting from 2^ if you are his buddy. Your wagon had moderate potential at that point and AV was contributing to it at a critical point. And if it did go places, he was going to get less town credit than Benmage? and whoever else was Fosing you.

I have other things to answer and catch up on when I get home from work but real quick:

Wow some of this is really naive. I'm going to address this and your questions in Post 450 at the same time.

1. Scum do sometimes sheep people blatantly in their first posts. I'm a bit confused because you say that scum him wouldn't do it because he could get pressured for it, yet ask why it struck me as scummy. If you understand why some people would pressure him for it, why ask me why I did. And, I'm the only person that I know of that thought his first post and sheeping was off. In my first post I said I thought his post was off. It wasn't necessarily the sheeping in and of itself, it was what was being sheeped and why. BC brought up a valid topic of discussion, though it was silly to suggest by day 3, and I was weary of the people who jumped on him for that. One of which was Yates who sheeped without thinking about what BC suggested. His whole first post felt off for me. (In fact, our only flipped scum, sheeped pretty blatantly onto Yates.)

2. I will give you this. This is where I started to doubt my reaction to his first post and thought he might be town.

3. We are of two completely different minds about this, and perhaps that's why you didn't understand what I was saying. My view on Jason and Yates being less likely to be partnered with AVox has nothing to do with what you are suggesting. In fact, I believe the exact opposite of what you've just stated. In a large theme game the first wagon or two are rarely the wagons that go through. Scum can and will often jump on their partners wagon for early distancing purposes. Adding a third vote to a wagon really early in day one really isn't adding momentum or putting their partner in danger, and if they are scum caught they will usually get on early in hopes of rewarding town cred for it.

The reason for why I gave Jason and Yates town points for Avox voting them is due to knowing something about Avox. And I do agree with you that meta isn't all it's cracked up to be, but I happen to know that AVox looks for scum in the early game. When we were in GvE together and his town had won, but was still in the game, and I was looking for the last scum in my town after putting up all the evidence, he gave his advice based on how the flipped scum voted and acted in the first few pages of the game. I am of a mind that people tend not to do things as scum that they routinely look for other scum for doing. Therefore, since he gave his first vote to Jason it is very unlikely they are parters. And since he gave his second vote to Yates, it is unlikely they are partners, but not as unlikely as Jason.

[Tammy]

On phone can't quote what I'm replying to bear with me...

AP - I've seen scum blatantly sheep. I've blatantly sheeped as scum, even more blatant than what Yates did in that post. I just think its a really dangerous path to go "scum won't xyz" because chances are scum have and will. Scum win all the time by doing things other people think scum won't do. The thing is though that it's really a moot point because over the next couple pages, even though I pointed out something I didn't like, I started to come around to the idea that Yates is probably town based on his Jason interaction, his answers to my questions, and the avox thing. As far as your point on avox, eh maybe, but I'm pretty sure that avox was lurking but paying attention and knew exactly what was going on in the game. Look at how quickly he responded to his day kill; he was paying attention just wasn't posting. Regardless it doesn't really matter as we're coming to similar conclusions. You think Yates is obvtown, and I think he's probably town.

What do you think of his vote on you.

[Tammy]

@ KK - regarding your question in post Post 506. It is a noob-tell, but it's more likely to be a noob-town-tell than a noob scum tell without a safe claim. How often have you seen a large theme like this without provided safe claims? I looked and don't see any pappums games here in large, but faraday was one of the reviewers so I'd expect something given. Besides the way he approached it doesn't seem devious, so I don't see it being an intentional fake claim. Also, I'm not interested in playing out guess the mod on this one. I think that along with all the other things I've mentioned make me think hes more likely to be town.

[Tammy]

Oh shariza slot is probstown.

[Tammy]

But Nero what do you think about melmond?

[Tammy]

cyber wagon is a distraction from actual scumwagons

So cyber is town?

Who is "distracting" with the cyber wagon? This implies it is scum driven. Is it? By whom?

Amrun - will you read melmond and cybertronix ns tell me what you think?

[Tammy]

I agree with you on cyber, he doesn't look scummy to me at all and I hate his wagon.

[Tammy]

Oh and amrun , when looking at cybertronix, please note that avox told cyber to sheep him onto Yates.

[Tammy]

No, not really. I don't have reads on either of them. AP comes off weird, in not just playstyle weird...some of it is either really naive, self absorbed or unnatural. He also asks questions and picks fights for some things that seem unnecessary or just to stir the pot. I tend to give his type a town reading, but it also makes me weary, so I'm holding off for a bit on him until I can get a better sense of him.

Sniff I have even less of a read on. I thought Peres case was ok and your recent reasons for him all right. It certainly is awful how he's cheering other lynches while sitting on one but not doing anything to push it. I'd vote him over cyber definitely.

[Tammy]

^^to Nero...sorry I'm fading.

[Tammy]

Tammy, would scum Mel really make a deal about ISOing only me just to fencesit about it?

But he didn't fence sit? He said you were most likely town, and he hopped off of bloodcovenent and jumped onto cybertronix.

What did you think of his jump onto cybertronix?

What do you think of his repeatedly asking Ben and I to give him reasons for our vote?

[Tammy]

Oh but why wouldn't scum fence-sit? Waiting to see how the wind was blowing is an effective strategy for scum. And I don't know him to know if it's part of his playstyle (like it unfortunately is mine sometimes)

[Tammy]

Oh I believe I was wrong about benmage earlier, he's probably town.

Acosmist is cracking me up also.

[Tammy]

To come up with a proper read on you. Your ideas are a lot different than mine, so I don't like them much, but I don't know if I actually have a serious scum read on you.

Melmond had a fucking 2x4 up his ass here. On phone, Ill respond when home

This isn't fence sitting though...he said he was reading you to get a read on you. Fence-sitting would have been if he would have read you and then still not known. This response reads fairly genuine though. I hate day one.

[Tammy]

@kk - why did you do a semi-detailed read of melmond in Post 559 and come to the conclusion that you'd like to see more before making a decision, but took the parroting thing of cybertronix without the same level of detail ns voted him and re calling for more votes on him?

[Tammy]

Melmond I'm voting you because I have a scum read on you. There's a lack of something to hold onto in your posts.Your case on BC was bad, in that it felt forced. I believe that you believe it but I got a sense of a possible bus/distance going on between you, and you are a stronger scum read for me than he is. Later I didn't like you asking why we were voting you, this could be personality but meh. There were never more than four votes on you and no more we're piling on so it read as you being too overly concerned about how you were being viewed. I also don't like your wagon hop onto cyber. If you have a strong scum read, why aren't you trying to push it? Also, why are you voting cyber? You didn't give a reason other than him being the best wagon that's going on right now. Why is he the best? Your jump onto cyber feels a bit survivalistic, which also reads weird to me because you only had three votes and no one else was saying they would jump on.

[Tammy]

Mildly paying attention and felt the need to chime in yes.

Like I said, I'm playing another game that's in mylo right now and is seeing a lot of action right now so I'm devoting time to that.

Go ahead and build your case on me though. This should be fun.

This reads town to me.

[Tammy]

Acknowledging prod. I apologize I forgot to post I would be v/la this weekend. I will catch up and post tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Can I just echo my frustration with this over long day?

Nero-I wasn't exactly Sheeping you with the cybertronix thing but through thread evidence I guess I was. I had noticed it and when you mentioned it it made my feling stronger. That and I had a generally positive view of his posts. I know that KK thought the post I said made me feel like he was town made him feel like he was scum, but the "this should be fun" type way he approached the rising suspicion on him is a way I've often responded as town. (I don't have post numbers right now, doing this from memory after skim through and API. To quote on iPad.)

Still feel fine about a melmond lynch.

My town read on benmage is getting stronger. His giving an earlier town read on acosmist but voting him recently read intensely town for what I know of benmage and not what I would expect from him as scum.

Snifit's jump onto the cyber wagon because it was smaller was horrible and then his recent jump onto rapid canyon after talking about melmond being scum was also alarm worthy.

Speaking of rapid canyon - that wagon is meh. I had an early leaning town read on him based on his earlier reaction to people's reaction to his self-vote and our conversation. What I'm finding a little odd is that angry pigeon said earlier that he would soon convince people that meta was 95% crap, but it feels like he is using meta as part of his reasoning here. Anyway I don't really buy the avoiding one game means someone is scum rule, as I've had it used against me when I was town and for whatever reason was procrastinating on a game. I don't see it as alignment telling until I really know that someone's meta is to do that and then it's not even 100%.

I don't know why mykonian was questioning Nero on his shariza town read, he wasn't the only one and the post she made just before she replaced out read incredibly town. You don't need a million posts to be town.

Thad - can you explain your ap read? I'm sorry if you actually do somewhere, it's late. I have no good read on him, and fully admit is playstyle sits in my blind spot.

Not reading rhe aco/ap walls, will later I suppose.

Don't know why pere goes from saying that melmond is not a bad lynch to hi. Being a bad lynch.

I agree that Jason brings up interesting points on kise...to look at later. I wouldn't vote him today though as I think there are enough good things about hi to warrant further evaluation.

Mykonian said "oh god he found a Tammy post"...I hate when people express annoyance at me posting. He's still town though...it's late don't mind me.

Why did rapidcanyon change his mind from ap to peregrine...kinda think that makes him more town.

Yates - don't honk of it as Sheeping benmage, think of it as Sheeping me :p

Another Nero echo - can this day end?

[Tammy]

Okay, this is going to be brief. I'm sick as hell and going back to bed.

Nero <3

Hi mastin and pidgey. Mastin I'll respond to you tomorrow or sometime this weekend, but I do have some read spread throughout my iso although there are a couple things I want to reevaluate after melmond coming back town.

I'll comment on the snifit stuff later too, but my heads pounding right now.

Also, and I'm not really sure how to handle this, but I received a message last night. I had this role once before and was told the basic purpose of it was to confirm that role and that someone took that action, instead of killing I guess, that night. Anyway, I dont know if i sould have kept that to myself, but ill be able to verify the sender if and when its necessary. For the last two parts, I feel the same and yes.

[Tammy]

KK - sorry if in my medicine fog that didnt make sense. I'm not suggesting they could do one or the other, I was just talking about the purpose of the role itself, which is to confirm that's your role and that's the action you took that night.

Yates - not sure what's more to explain? There is someone who has a role where he can send a message to another player at night. That person sent the message to me. It did not come directly from the other player but from the mod.

I'm going back to bed, deal with game later.

[Tammy]

Why is Tammy scum? I really don't feel one way or the other abut her.

I don't have the time to go into this.

Shouldn't her not being a shinning beacon of townliness have been telling enough??

BTW, I think she should claim who messaged her... What was the message again? Did we get that yet?

This is because you think my halo isn't shining as brightly as you think it should? I don't know why some games people get an insta-town read on me and the next think I'm not the beacon I should be, but if you look at my actions this game, every single one of them have been town-motivated. I can't believe you can't see that.

And no, btw, I'm not claiming who messaged me right now. I'll leave that up to discussion for what's the best course of action. It will be outing one person's role and will be narrowing the pool for everyone else. I made sure it was there for confirmation purposes. And, I'm not outing the message either. If the sender wants to say what they sent to me that's their prerogative. It was no big secret and nothing great and game changing so there's no need whatsoever; it was just one person's thoughts about the game I'm not going to violate that. Also, I'm fairly certain the sender of the message is on your town list and is someone I very strongly believe to be town as well; that's pretty much all I'm going to say about that.

[Tammy]

KK

what is your read on Tammy anyways?

Not on the town list. Her excuses are annoying, but I'm waiting to see how the mailman stuff plays out.

So, tell me KK, how often is it that you listen to people's opinions about the people who you are voting who are not on your town list. Also, how often is it you just sheep people not on your town list?

You are also going to need to point out these excuses that are annoying. If you mean the only two I can think of: a.) me getting prodded because I forgot to declare v/la over a weekend but delivering content the day I promised and b.) making sure I came in here and gave what I consider a vital piece of information so that I don't forget but not commenting on things because I'm sick, you can shove it.

[Tammy]

Also, Mastin's probably town. I had a town read on Cyber anyway and the Mastin read is just stronger. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Mastin, but when we played in GvE together and he thought I was a member of the opposing scum team, he didn't come after me like this. The most of what he said was that I was terribad, but wouldn't really elaborate. The way he went after snifit so strongly reminds me nothing of how he behaved as mafia. And no, meta's not everything, but his tone is completely different. I'm not sure about when he jumped off his suspicions, my minds a bit hazy right now, so I'll need to look at that again...hopefully tomorrow.

I also need to look at snifit closer, his most recent post read really genuine, and some of what I had assumed about him was based on Melmond flipping guilty, which he didn't, so re-evaluations are in order. Hopefully I'll feel better tomorrow and can make sense of some things then.

[Tammy]

I still have stuff to go through in this game. I'm only feeling a little better and have real life work to catch up with before mafia so that will probably be tomorrow.

But real quick - Ill read and think about your mastin stuff later. My head is so foggy I had to read it three times to understand what you were saying.

Ben - my aco read is weird. I can't read players that play like him as he seems like he's half trolling half real playing. I think the pro claim makes him lean town, but the static ness of his reads leans scum. Like his read on you is weird as I think you're pretty strongly town, just infuriating, and his "until someone tells me youre bad at mafia, I'm keeping you as scum" reads really weird. As it is, he's the type of player I'd not be able to find a reason not to vote for if not for the pgo thing.

[Tammy]

Oh actually Ben there was one post that struck me as really genuine and had me leaning town by aco. I'll find it later.

KK- I'm going to take what you said as a joke. And I should have never had super town cred from that one observation anyway.

[Tammy]

I cannot wait to find out why it is that Benmage knows what he thinks he knows. If he investigated me he'd know I wasn't scum.

I don't have any partners Benny-Boy, so gathering up people's reads on me or interactions with me or my reads on others are going to get you nowhere but send town on an awful wrong path.

[Tammy]

Or someone who is not scum and is flabbergasted at Ben's recent antics.

[Tammy]

My gods Benmage you are so fucking annoying. If you're actually interested in reading my REAL alignment read my posts, please?

I never called pidgey town, so I don't know where you're getting that I buddied him by saying that. I've never even mentioned Pidgey yet.

I never tried to prove your points wrong. You pulled up that I'm not town because I'm not some beacon of townliness and I said I don't know why some people get an insta town read on me in one game and then think my halo doesn't shine bright enough in the next game and asked you to look at my motivations, which have been town-minded all game.

The only only thing I said you don't have is a cop guilty on me. That I know you don't have. I'm not asking you to out yourself as cop because if you were a cop you wouldn't be calling me confirmed scum and you definitely wouldn't try to get reads about THE PARNTERS I DON'T HAVE. Yeah, so I'm interested in why you think I'm confirmed. Best I think is that you guarded me or something last night and you think the missing kill is my fault, WHICH IT WASN'T.

You have to not be actually reading my posts to think I haven't been scumhunting this game. I thought Melmond was scum. I was wrong. In the case where I described my Melmond scum read, I said I had a leaning scum read on Blood Covenent, which I still do. I also had a scum read on snifit yesterday, but part of that was based on what looked like him calling Melmond scum but was avoiding his wagon, and I thought it indicated that they were partners. But they're not so my original thought was wrong and I need to do some evaluating.

[Tammy]

But you're right on one point--Tammy's meta reason for clearing me isn't very good. In multiscum games, my scumplay is actually at its closest to my townplay as it can be.

So, I'm saying that you're not acting like you did in the game we played together when you were scum and therefore I think it's more likely that you're town. And you rebut that by saying no I'm not right because you play multiball as close to town play.

Am I understanding you right? You're saying that your multiball play is closest to your town play? I'm saying that your play there was different from your play here, so, whatcha trying to say Mastin?

[Tammy]

Yates - I'm not saying I'm obviously town. I don't know where anyone would get that. It's just that people expect for me to be extreme Town Tammy, and when I don't do x they think I'm scum. The only thing I can say is to look at my motivations, which have been town. I'm not saying that I'm TownTownTown.

[Tammy]

You know what I think is interesting? Is that in the post right above this blatantly horrible case, you posted a link to a town game of yours. I loosely followed along that game, and in that game you demonstrated a much better understanding of people's motives. As you, rightly, brag about your realization that a suspicious claim came from town rather than scum. So, it surprises me a bit to see this case here. The thing is I don't really know what to do with your alignment with it, because if you're mafia, you would know I'm not one of your partners so I can't see how you would build such a case. But, I can't see it coming from town either. Makes things much more difficult when deciding what my read is on you.

Decided to do an iso of tammy because, you know, why not.

Turns out...
She is actually scum!

Have a look at these:

Melmond I'm voting you because I have a scum read on you. There's a lack of something to hold onto in your posts.Your case on BC was bad, in that it felt forced. I believe that you believe it

but I got a sense of a possible bus/distance going on between you, and you are a stronger scum read for me than he is.

Later I didn't like you asking why we were voting you, this could be personality but meh. There were never more than four votes on you and no more we're piling on so it read as you being too overly concerned about how you were being viewed. I also don't like your wagon hop onto cyber. If you have a strong scum read, why aren't you trying to push it? Also, why are you voting cyber? You didn't give a reason other than him being the best wagon that's going on right now. Why is he the best? Your jump onto cyber feels a bit survivalistic, which also reads weird to me because you only had three votes and no one else was saying they would jump on.

This is her case on melmond.
"I believe that you believe it"? Then how can he be scum?
Asking why people were voting him? Maybe this was because no one (especially tammy herself) gave reasons.
The stuff about "survivalistic" is crappy as well.

I bolded the relevant part for you there. I thought I saw bussing/distancing and some possible coaching from Blood Covenent who I also had a scum read on. I can absolutely believe he believed he had a case on someone I believed was his partner. I was wrong about them being partners.

Yeah, sometimes scum spend a lot of time asking why people are voting for them. I was wrong about him...it was personality.

So, it was my interpretation. I was wrong.

Thad - can you explain your ap read? I'm sorry if you actually do somewhere, it's late. I have no good read on him, and fully admit is playstyle sits in my blind spot.

This is going to become something of a trend - basically "faking a read on someone is hard - I'll just get someone else to do it or say the person is 'weird'".
Also, as was brought up by someone else (kk or ben), she constantly is making excuses for herself to allow for the fact that, you know, her reads are weak or she just lynched town.

I never called anyone weird. In fact, if I thought someone was weird, they'd probably get a town read from me.

Faking a read on someone isn't hard to do. Faking a read on someone is the easiest thing to do in mafia. Getting it right is the hard thing.

I don't constantly make excuses for anything. I don't need to make up an excuse for lynching town. I had a scum read. I was wrong. My reads aren't weak. I have very strong town reads. Do I need to re-evaluate some things? Yes, because I WAS WRONG ON DAY ONE. Of course I want to look back over and see where I went wrong. Some people move on without a thought, I go back over and make sure that I feel good about the other reads I have.

This is because you think my halo isn't shining as brightly as you think it should? I don't know why some games people get an insta-town read on me and the next think I'm not the beacon I should be, but if you look at my actions this game, every single one of them have been town-motivated. I can't believe you can't see that.

Who, other than scum, claims that "every single one (of my actions) have been town-motivated"? And begs the question: "I can't believe you can't see that"?
This is like a minor scumclaim. Can't believe I missed this earlier.

I'm getting blamed for not being a beacon of townliness. I get this often from people who play a game with me and then play another and think I'm not shining as brightly as I did in that other game and think I must/might be scum. I was saying to look at my motivations. I don't know why I'm not as TOWN TOWN TOWN, but my motivations should show it. Motivations is where you should always be looking. Didn't you even say that in the link you posted?

And no, btw, I'm not claiming who messaged me right now. I'll leave that up to discussion for what's the best course of action. It will be outing one person's role and will be narrowing the pool for everyone else. I made sure it was there for confirmation purposes. And, I'm not outing the message either. If the sender wants to say what they sent to me that's their prerogative. It was no big secret and nothing great and game changing so there's no need whatsoever; it was just one person's thoughts about the game I'm not going to violate that. Also, I'm fairly certain the sender of the message is on your town list and is someone I very strongly believe to be town as well; that's pretty much all I'm going to say about that.

This reads to me as: "look at how protown I'm being - I'm leaving everything up for the discussion of the town like a good townsperson would!".
But then also rounds down who the person could be by saying that they're on benmage's and her townlists. You know, just for lulz, and with the implication that if we keep asking about it it would be "scummy" as we might be "outing a town!".

This is bullshit. I said in the original post that I wasn't sure how to handle it because I've only seen the role once, when I had it. As far as outing the sender, yes, if everyone says that's what should be done then I will, other than that no. It's only there for confirmation purposes anyway. I didn't want to forget to post that I'd receive it and then get NK'd or lynched and afterwards that person claim to have sent me a letter on day one and have no confirmation.

I never once implied that anyone was scummy for asking. Your whole case is such a blatant misrep that I can't believe you wrote this with a straight face.

And no, I'm not outing the message. I don't even care if I get lynched for not doing it, ya'll can yell at me for playing against my wincon or having a fucked up sense of right and wrong all you want after game, but I'm still not going to do it.. The message isn't game breaking. It doesn't have information, just one person's thoughts. And this person seemed to think that his thoughts could get him night killed so he sent it to me. The thoughts read genuine paranoia and TOWN to me, and even though I know that this role isn't alignment dependent they seem to think it does.

Also, Mastin's probably town. I had a town read on Cyber anyway and the Mastin read is just stronger. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Mastin, but when we played in GvE together and he thought I was a member of the opposing scum team, he didn't come after me like this. The most of what he said was that I was terribad, but wouldn't really elaborate. The way he went after snifit so strongly reminds me nothing of how he behaved as mafia. And no, meta's not everything, but his tone is completely different. I'm not sure about when he jumped off his suspicions, my minds a bit hazy right now, so I'll need to look at that again...hopefully tomorrow.

I also need to look at snifit closer, his most recent post read really genuine, and some of what I had assumed about him was based on Melmond flipping guilty, which he didn't, so re-evaluations are in order. Hopefully I'll feel better tomorrow and can make sense of some things then.

"My mind is a bit hazy now" = another excuse.
And the whole "I need to re-evaluate things because I was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sure melmond would be scum" is forced to me.
(also a bonus excuse is tacked on at the end, just in case one per post wasn't enough.

There are no excuses. Have you ever been sick? For the past four days I've slept 18-20 hours each day and eaten nothing but popsicles and crackers. I'm not trying to AtE it, but I could have easily just declared V/LA because I was sick but I tried to keep up as best I could. Yeah, my head was foggy. I'VE BEEN SICK.

Like seriously. I'm just baffled right now.

I still have stuff to go through in this game. I'm only feeling a little better and have real life work to catch up with before mafia so that will probably be tomorrow.

But real quick - Ill read and think about your mastin stuff later. My head is so foggy I had to read it three times to understand what you were saying.

Ben - my aco read is weird. I can't read players that play like him as he seems like he's half trolling half real playing. I think the pro claim makes him lean town, but the static ness of his reads leans scum. Like his read on you is weird as I think you're pretty strongly town, just infuriating, and his "until someone tells me youre bad at mafia, I'm keeping you as scum" reads really weird. As it is, he's the type of player I'd not be able to find a reason not to vote for if not for the pgo thing.

"Oh noes - mah head is foggy!". Yup - another excuse.
And also remember how I mentioned earlier how if she finds it too hard to fake a read she will just copy someone else or say they are "weird" which doesn't mean anything? Yeah, she does that here with aco.

Where did I copy anyone? I can fake reads. Faking reads is easy to do. I never called Aco weird, I said that my read is weird and that something read weird. Did you also miss the next post a few down? That would be Post 1117 right after the post you quoted. Also, whenever I've not been able to get a read and have decided to sheep a strong town read that I trust. I'm very upfront about that.

I cannot wait to find out why it is that Benmage knows what he thinks he knows. If he investigated me he'd know I wasn't scum.

I don't have any partners Benny-Boy, so gathering up people's reads on me or interactions with me or my reads on others are going to get you nowhere but send town on an awful wrong path.

Does this sound like scared scum to anyone else?
(I know you're all over this jason - unless you were joking - in which case you're totally partners with her!)

vote: tammy

Nope! I don't get scared as scum. I consider myself to be the most expendable member of any scum team, because I despise being scum.

I'm serious. I can't wait to find out why Ben thinks I'm confirmed scum. I'm really interested in that. If I have to wait until after game to find out, I have to wait until after game to find out. Still really interested.

[Tammy]

Tammy, scum reads?

Do you have any?

No, I have no scum reads at all. Did you miss when I said I needed to review some things. I think that Blood Covenent is scum and it's frustrating that he replaced out before I could interact with him some more. That "oh I forgot about this game" four minutes after the day opened is eh.

I did have a scum read on snifit, but his recent posts today feel genuine and what I thought I saw yesterday, with him avoiding the Melmond wagon because they were partners was obviously wrong, so I need to read back through him.

I also had a scum read on Peregrine after yesterday's certainty that Melmond was town and was going to suspect everyone who voted him. I thought it read as intense posturing because I couldn't see how he could be so certain that Melmond was innocent, especially after he said that it wasn't a bad lynch. But his explanation today makes sense. It's a little out there, but I wouldn't expect scum to come up with that reasoning.

After Thad's "case" on me I'm leaning scum on him. And that's not just OMGUS, but that it's such a blatantly fake case I can't see it coming from town. Well not town that demonstrates an understanding of the game like he does.

[Tammy]

I totally 100% understand why you have a reputation for destroying town with your attitude Benmage.

I didn't submit the night kill, because I don't have one.

Yeah, I'm trying to make sense of my read on someone whom I was calling a strong town read yesterday. It's called giving something some thought.

I just said I'm not outing the message. If that gets me lynched, so be it. If the town decides that I should out the messager that's one thing. I'm just not going to tell you all the message.

[Tammy]

FUCK OFF!

[Tammy]

1213 is me trying to figure out why Ben is so confident I'm scum. He's all "she's confirmed" and I'm running through the possibilities for why he could think that.

Blood Covenent was one of my scum reads yesterday; Melmond was just stronger. I'm not a really good early game scum hunter especially when there are so many people. I work better as time goes on and there are flips and night kills. The lack of night kill last night doesn't help as to me it just feels like an extension of day one.

I don't want to out the message because the person just seemed so paranoid that his thoughts would get them killed. It feels like a violation to just spill what they said.

[Tammy]

Tammy im gonna have to ask you to just out the message. I dont think anything bad will come out of that. Also whats your read on benmage sis?

No.

Benmage is probably town. He likes to brag that he has a flawless scum game, and none of his play reminds me anything of the one scum game I've read of his when I replaced into heroes of comedy. He's bossy as town and thinks he knows it all.

[Tammy]

I love how Benmage is so convinced I'm mafia he's basing his reads on other people depending on how they've interacted with me. Fucking hysterical.

[Tammy]

@ BENMAGE

Why am I scum?

[Tammy]

Also, read his ISO, if you disagree let me know.

[Tammy]

My Why am I scum was in response to his why is BC scum.

[Tammy]

@Tammy well we can now add deflection to list. TY.

So we have:
-lack of scumhunting/case attacking
-rolefishing
-fencesitting
-and now deflection
kudos...*sneak preview....for next scumtell: AtE*

False. I've been scumhunting. How is me not case attacking a scum tell again?
False. I haven't asked you to out your role, I've just conjectured.
So? How is that unusual for me to take my time? Considering that I've called myself queen waffles on numerous occasions that should be clear.
I'm not deflecting
Oh and AtE is a scum tell from me. Try a Tammy tell. I get accused of that all the time. In fact it (and KK) are responsible for my only mislynch.

[Tammy]

If you are the cop why do you think I'm mafia?

[Tammy]

STOP VOTING ME.

I'm the dayvig. Not Mafia.

Mafia is down one member because of me. And I'm not spreading my arms open wide. I can prove it.

[Tammy]

I can bold who I want to vig in thread or email it and it will happen.

[Tammy]

Why would I soft claim my vig kill?

You can look at me asking Ben to look at my motivation and that all of my actions have been town-motivated. I'm talking about me taking out AVox yesterday.

As far as proving it, I have more shots.

[Tammy]

Wait, my mouse battery dies. You want me to shoot Benmage?

[Tammy]

Gut reaction on AV. The jump on Jason was crappy and AV is better than that. Then his jump onto Yates was awful. I would have done it sooner but I had to wait until page 10.

[Tammy]

Because I don't know what to do. I wanted to take out a strong scum read of mine that I thought would be difficult to get lynched. Which is one reason why I took out Avox. I kind of want to take out Thad as I think he might be scum.

[Tammy]

How does that indicate that BC's slot is scum. He was the one I was planning to shoot today until Thad wrote his crap case. Come on read that. Tell me that comes from town. Shake off your tunnel vision from me and read that objectively.

[Tammy]

Because I actually care about who gets shot. I'm not interested in shooting town. I'm not lying.

[Tammy]

Have fun betting. You think I would have said I could if I couldn't?

What epiphany am I waiting on? You act like you've never seen me in a game. Damn I take more time deciding on who I want to vote for and this is killing someone. I want to hit mafia, not town, so give me a sec.

[Tammy]

DAMMIT. This was a lot easier yesterday when I just went with what I wanted to do based on gut.

[Tammy]

I had a strong quick read on AV yesterday. Today, I'm trying to decide between BC and Thad or if anyone else has any suggestions I'll take them into consideration.

[Tammy]

I'm not going to get shot. If I didn't care who died, I'd shoot Benmage or any number of town. Just give me a minute.

[Tammy]

I had a strong quick read on AV yesterday. Today, I'm trying to decide between BC and Thad or if anyone else has any suggestions I'll take them into consideration.

weaksauce

Snifit is a good bottom line for me. Everything higher on this list is nice.

I'm not following.

[Tammy]

Eh, Mastin's not reading all that town to me, but I had a town read on Cybertronix. so meh. Yes, I know I said by meta Mastin was reading town but then he kept posting.

[Tammy]

I didn't get what you said. I'll look at your list.

[Tammy]

I'm not shooting Zabriel/Nero/Acosmist. I have town reads on both Zabriel and Nero. And well, I'm not suicidal. Yeah, I know I'm not living long, but still. That would be a waste.

Don't know about pidgey but some of what he says has me eh. Especially how much he seems to want to save BC. BUT I was lead astray yesterday in my thinking that Melmond was partners with BC by similar theory so I don't trust myself on that one right now.

I don't know about Mastin. His earlier push against snifit made me think he was town but then he kept posting.

Kise I'm undecided on and wouldn't shoot. I'm interested in where the KK/Kise thing is going.

[Tammy]

AP - What made you start thinking that BC was town?

[Tammy]

You would be silly to take me out today. I'm dying tonight. There's no way they're going to leave alive a dayvig that can and will take them out. I mean maybe they think I won't fire correctly, but I doubt they'll take that chance especially when I've made it clear that I'll take suggestions to shoot.

You lynch me today, Benmage dies tonight most likely. Now there must be a protective role that protected someone last night so there is that, but still.

[Tammy]

Hey Thad - Since you're around. Any reason I shouldn't dayvig you right now?

[Tammy]

Flavor is I'm a dayvig. I have no idea why he has a guilty on me, maybe because I am technically a killer. I've played in a game before in which vigs came up as killers to investigations.

[Tammy]

I have more than one shot left. I already claimed my role.

[Tammy]

Hmm...interesting Thad was just viewing this forum and posted elsewhere.

[Tammy]

AP - You said you didn't like his reaction to you suggesting he could be scum with Melmond. Has that changed now that Melmond came back town?

Mykonian - If you mean me shooting myself I won't do that. Not going to waste a shot on myself when I can take out scum with it.

[Tammy]

Why is Thad ignoring my question. Does he think I'm not serious. I'm feeling Trigger Happy Jack here.

[Tammy]

Why would I shoot myself? That's not very town-motivated. I wasn't lying when I said everything I've done has been town-motivated. I'd rather take out scum. If you guys lynch me anyway, then you do.

[Tammy]

Oh well...that's now three times Thad was viewing the forum and didn't post.

Bye Thad.

Dayvig: ThAdmiral

[Tammy]

*cross fingers that he's scum*

[Tammy]

Well that sucked. Guess I should have gone with blood covenant. We could always lynch him though.

VOTE: blood covenant

Bleh I'm done with this game for the night.

Two things in case you guys get lynch happy:

I'm serious serious that I believe the sender of the message is town.

Whether or not you believe me, leaving me alive for mafia to take out is the better course. Ive proofed my role, and sure i made a mistake today but I might not tomorrow - I didn't yesterday. I have more shots; they can't leave me alive. If I'm dead, they're going to go after the cop.

[Tammy]

I have to catch up on every thing since Monday, but just caught Benmages last post.

Why would I shoot you benmage? If I wanted to shoot you, I'd have done it already. What are you going to do? Investigate me again? You know what you should, maybe you'll get the correct result this time.

[Tammy]

I never said you were fake claiming. When suggested that I shoot you the other night, I said I'm not interested in shooting town and that I believed you to be town. Something interfered with your results, but I still think you're the town cop. Keeping you alive to do your job is why I said its best to keep me alive. Leaving me alive will help insure you stay alive, simple.

Whether or not you believe me that I'm the dayvig, you have to see that I'm interested in going after mafia not town. My first shot was on a scum read. My second one too. Maybe you don't agree, and I did have him as a town read, but after reading him in one other game I thought he was a bit more thorough and didn't think he'd make a case on someone based on petty things in which he mostly just made fun of me for being sick and blatantly misrepresented things said and done. I just couldn't imagine that case came from town. And then when he didn't come to the thread after I made it clear I was thinking about him, I thought it was certain. I was wrong.

[Tammy]

Okay, I take back my earlier suspicions of Mastin. I don't see him as scum advocating me staying alive if he believes I'm the serial killer, especially when I had raised minor suspicion of him before. He'd be advocating something that could potentially weaken his team, and I don't see him doing that. It reminds me of when we played in GvE and my behavior in advocating an action where if I were scum would have almost certainly cost me the game helping nacho realize that I was more likely innocent than mastin.

[Tammy]

Spoiler:

I honestly would not be shocked if its Kise/Snifit/Zabriel purely because those two are trying to construe my Mastin pressure as a Snifit defense. I keep saying Snifit is scummy. The only thing bothering me right now is how much of a free pass Mastin is getting for shoving a case that IMO is hinged on a singular sketchy point.

After unvoting mastin, why did you choose to vote me over snifit? I had 2 votes, snifit had 4. And at what point did I become scum to you? I don't see anything from day 1 - nothing longer than your suspicion of snifit.

You have a history of calling people townish if they exhibit a carefree attitude.

Leaning town:
Kise (didn't really acknowledge him in my catchup ^^, but his intro post is a bit carefree, reads genuine)

Prob Scum:
Blood Covenent

Post 285/286: Ok, Benmage is now obvtown for being carefree.

BC, you have been posting elsewhere, why not here?

takes time to read dude.

Prob town.

I don't think my attitude has changed, if much at all. What is it that really bothers you about me connecting you and snifit?

Honestly, I'd rather have been voting RC throughout all of that, but there is apparently no support for that wagon. I already explained this several times. I do not understand why you were ok with Mastin's push. It was a case based on Snifit 'lying' and it was incredibly forced. You were on Mastin's hit list but apparently didn't care that his case ws forced and he was outright lying TO ME about there being any other points to the snifit case that he had made. It was setting of alarm bells all over my head and I couldn't understand why someone listed as a Mastin scumread was ok with getting on Mastin's train (yes I know you had Snifit as a scumread before) when the train was likely going to hit you the next Day. That, combined with you calling me buddies with Snifit really made me think it was more likely you would be scum than Snifit.

Yes, I like gutreads. And I try to quantify them, and it usually comes down to posting style/tone. Someone who doesn't care what people think about them is probably not scum.

Why shouldn't I be bothered about you connecting me to Snifit?

I'm not following this reasoning. Why would it matter that he and mastin had the same scum read even if mastin had a scum read on kise. They could both be right about snifit while mastin could be wrong about kise.

Why would kise worry about mastin's train coming after him the next day? If he were scum wouldn't he be more likely to try to keep around a stronger scum read than him for him to hide behind rather than jump on the train and help it along?

[Tammy]

Ah, so many questions.

I'm not interested in shooting benmage. I had two chances to do that and didn't.

Aco, you keep saying that they want me to kill you, but if you're basically pgo I can't kill you.

And if I was targeted for a kill last night, I would have also had to be targetted for the heal last night. There's no way that happened, that would have made me hella popular on night one. I was popular, but not THAT popular.

[Tammy]

Ben is right about one thing. If I were an SK, I would HAVE to say yes to the Aco dilemma. I'm not answering the question, because it's silly...there's only one answer I can give.

Ben is wrong that I would shoot him though. As far as I'm concerned, he's mafia's problem not mine. I'd feel that way even if I were the SK.

Keeping me around makes mafia have to decide which problem they want to take care of and keeps them off balance. Removing me means they're going to definitely be hunting for the cop, and we don't even know what type of power the mafia have. They could have a strongman kill. I mean if there's a cop and a dayvig, mafia's gonna have roles too and besides just a mafia blocker.

[Tammy]

There's no way I was shot at last night. I've only drawn a night kill night one twice, and one was because I was so obviously innocent it wasn't funny and the second time was simply because the killers didn't want me alive because they thought I'd be the one most likely to catch them if I got my head on straight.

Also, if I was shot last night, I would have died. There's no way I drew doc protect. None.

[Tammy]

I never said I wouldn't deign to test it. I am actually considering it regardless; it's just a silly question to ask me. If I'm the dayvig - yes, of course I'd do anything to help town because I win with town regardless. If I'm the SK - yes, of course I'd do it.

Either way, I have to say yes.

[Tammy]

Okay well if you guys are set on lynching me let me finish catching up and giving my reads.

Also, I have another confirmation for future purposes. I was neighborized last night as well.

I almost never get targetted night one, and here I was targetted by three people.

[Tammy]

Right. Completely separate.

[Tammy]

Spoiler:

I honestly would not be shocked if its Kise/Snifit/Zabriel purely because those two are trying to construe my Mastin pressure as a Snifit defense. I keep saying Snifit is scummy. The only thing bothering me right now is how much of a free pass Mastin is getting for shoving a case that IMO is hinged on a singular sketchy point.

After unvoting mastin, why did you choose to vote me over snifit? I had 2 votes, snifit had 4. And at what point did I become scum to you? I don't see anything from day 1 - nothing longer than your suspicion of snifit.

You have a history of calling people townish if they exhibit a carefree attitude.

Leaning town:
Kise (didn't really acknowledge him in my catchup ^^, but his intro post is a bit carefree, reads genuine)

Prob Scum:
Blood Covenent

Post 285/286: Ok, Benmage is now obvtown for being carefree.

BC, you have been posting elsewhere, why not here?

takes time to read dude.

Prob town.

I don't think my attitude has changed, if much at all. What is it that really bothers you about me connecting you and snifit?

Honestly, I'd rather have been voting RC throughout all of that, but there is apparently no support for that wagon. I already explained this several times. I do not understand why you were ok with Mastin's push. It was a case based on Snifit 'lying' and it was incredibly forced. You were on Mastin's hit list but apparently didn't care that his case ws forced and he was outright lying TO ME about there being any other points to the snifit case that he had made. It was setting of alarm bells all over my head and I couldn't understand why someone listed as a Mastin scumread was ok with getting on Mastin's train (yes I know you had Snifit as a scumread before) when the train was likely going to hit you the next Day. That, combined with you calling me buddies with Snifit really made me think it was more likely you would be scum than Snifit.

Yes, I like gutreads. And I try to quantify them, and it usually comes down to posting style/tone. Someone who doesn't care what people think about them is probably not scum.

Why shouldn't I be bothered about you connecting me to Snifit?

I'm not following this reasoning. Why would it matter that he and mastin had the same scum read even if mastin had a scum read on kise. They could both be right about snifit while mastin could be wrong about kise.

Why would kise worry about mastin's train coming after him the next day? If he were scum wouldn't he be more likely to try to keep around a stronger scum read than him for him to hide behind rather than jump on the train and help it along?

[Tammy]

Spoiler:

I honestly would not be shocked if its Kise/Snifit/Zabriel purely because those two are trying to construe my Mastin pressure as a Snifit defense. I keep saying Snifit is scummy. The only thing bothering me right now is how much of a free pass Mastin is getting for shoving a case that IMO is hinged on a singular sketchy point.

After unvoting mastin, why did you choose to vote me over snifit? I had 2 votes, snifit had 4. And at what point did I become scum to you? I don't see anything from day 1 - nothing longer than your suspicion of snifit.

You have a history of calling people townish if they exhibit a carefree attitude.

Leaning town:
Kise (didn't really acknowledge him in my catchup ^^, but his intro post is a bit carefree, reads genuine)

Prob Scum:
Blood Covenent

Post 285/286: Ok, Benmage is now obvtown for being carefree.

BC, you have been posting elsewhere, why not here?

takes time to read dude.

Prob town.

I don't think my attitude has changed, if much at all. What is it that really bothers you about me connecting you and snifit?

Honestly, I'd rather have been voting RC throughout all of that, but there is apparently no support for that wagon. I already explained this several times. I do not understand why you were ok with Mastin's push. It was a case based on Snifit 'lying' and it was incredibly forced. You were on Mastin's hit list but apparently didn't care that his case ws forced and he was outright lying TO ME about there being any other points to the snifit case that he had made. It was setting of alarm bells all over my head and I couldn't understand why someone listed as a Mastin scumread was ok with getting on Mastin's train (yes I know you had Snifit as a scumread before) when the train was likely going to hit you the next Day. That, combined with you calling me buddies with Snifit really made me think it was more likely you would be scum than Snifit.

Yes, I like gutreads. And I try to quantify them, and it usually comes down to posting style/tone. Someone who doesn't care what people think about them is probably not scum.

Why shouldn't I be bothered about you connecting me to Snifit?

I'm not following this reasoning. Why would it matter that he and mastin had the same scum read even if mastin had a scum read on kise. They could both be right about snifit while mastin could be wrong about kise.

Why would kise worry about mastin's train coming after him the next day? If he were scum wouldn't he be more likely to try to keep around a stronger scum read than him for him to hide behind rather than jump on the train and help it along?

[Tammy]

oops

[Tammy]

The one thing that gives me pause on Mastin being town is him trying to nail down the scum team without a flip. That may be playstyle based though so I'm not sure. I just really don't like when people do partner analysis before flips because they have a tendency to lead town astray, and relational tells aren't 100% anyway because scum love drawing fake relations between themselves and town.

Besides that I still think Zabriel is town.

Haven't seen enough of pidgey to know, but there are some posts that read townish so I'm undecided (oh noes my head is too foggy and I can't fake a read here /sarcasm).

Pere is a possibility. I said that I hated his stance about Melmond at the end of the day because it read as intense posturing but his masons thing is idk. It would be interesting if Thad was the intended night kill last night though. Too bad we have no way of knowing that (no I'm not doc fishing here). I tend to find Pere suspicious and can't really read him until time has passed so...

I don't know about Kise. I think that Jason has a point about Kise, and I'm generally reading KK as town though I have had a few blips in my KK town read. I know that KK is good at scum, and the way he went about his Zabriel case yesterday in which he didn't seem to be looking at why he might be town read as someone who was trying to force a read rather than actual read, but he gave that up. I also thought that he was going to go somewhere with Angry Pidgeon that he didn't and that I think he totally would have if he were scum, so I basically still have my town read on KK, it's just not as strong as it was early day one. I'm just not sure I see Kise!scum going after KK if KK were town. KK has that meta evidence to back him up on how Kise has treated him before in games and Kise would know that, so why not just go after the easier lynches and quietly kill KK? It's not like he would be a shocking night kill if town. Also, Kise could have continued to push me as scum yesterday after I answered the question about Yates which he (and Ben) found suspicious instead of realize that I was trying to make sense of my read myself. So, bleh, I'm on the fence about this as well. He seems like someone who would need more time and evidence to read as well. That and I really am not that great of an early game reader...sometimes, but usually I'm a mid gamer.

[Tammy]

Yates, you're being an idiot. Put yourself in her claimed shoes. You have a town dayvig pm. You are not a miller. You have yet to take a shot. Someone claims a guilty on you. Do you:

A) shoot the player with the guilty result because it must be fake.
B) waffle, give no helpful information then shoot near randomly for a piss-poor reason (he didn't post)?

Hint: a is town. B isn't.

I didn't shoot randomly. I had a scum read.

[Tammy]

Her shots have not been good she got lucky with AV. Thad was obviously town.

You can't trust her shot.

Period.

I had a scum read on AV...and I was right. Thad wasn't obviously town. I had a scum read. I was wrong.

[Tammy]

Hey sometimes I get good reads early game, most often I don't. In mafia behind the maiden I noted my suspicions of four of the mafia on day one. That was a rare case though.

I've played with AV before. His play looked nothing like town, so yeah, I had a scum read and I was right.

I had a good reason to shoot Thad. You just don't like it. If Thad wouldn't have written that case that I couldn't imagine coming from town ever, I would have shot BC.

[Tammy]

Jesus. I'm Johnny Sasaki.

[Tammy]

EVERYONE THAT WAS THERE KNEW I WAS THINKING ABOUT SHOOTING THAD. NOT ONE PERSON ARGUED WITH ME ABOUT IT OR TRIED TO PROVE HE WAS TOWN.

[Tammy]

Stop calling me a liar when I'm not lying Benmage.

[Tammy]

Also, I do need to confirm this because I'm not sure what I think about it, and whatever you think about me I've honestly been searching for mafia since the time the game started. I don't know why you were so suspicious of me when I was honest with my reads.

But, Nero Cain neighborized me last night. We didn't talk about much but he asked me for my four suspects with reasoning. I'm not sure what to think about it and thought I'd hold onto it while I figured it out. He didn't give many suspects just said he thought Jason was onto something with Kise and thought that Snifit was suspicious too. I gave him all the thoughts I had on players up to that point, but I do kind of find it weird that he wanted to know my 4 suspects with reasons because he wanted to keep track of suspects. Anyway, do with that what you want.

[Tammy]

Stop calling me a liar when I'm not lying Benmage.

You realize a comment like this actually makes me think you the person Tammy, not the player... is dumb for lack of a better word.

If I called out scum for lying, and they say I'm not lying... well geegolly, of course they'd say that. They have to say that. Their whole game is a lie. So you saying your not lying has zero influence on me. You tammy, the person should know this.

But I'm not lying. I really have been looking for mafia. None of my reads or thoughts or anything has been a lie.

[Tammy]

Good luck town. I was honest about all my reads.

I seriously do believe the messager was town. Please don't lynch him.

[Tammy]

No.

[Tammy]

Okay so with snifit, yesterday I thought he was scum and was a potential partner to Melmond because twice he opted to vote for someone else besides Melmond while at the same time calling Melmond scummy. First it was cybertronix because the wagon was smaller and then it was rapid canyon. I had a town read on both slots so my immediate conclusion was that he was partnered. But I was wrong about Melmond so that reasoning goes out the window. However, his play doesn't read town to me, even though he does have a genuine post or two. I'm of the mind that he possibly was trying to stay off the wagon due to his partner being on the wagon or too close in proximity to a partner. Anyway this is wishy-washy, but it's something worth looking at again based on future flips.

[Tammy]

I wouldn't totally discount Zoroaster because of Avox's slip. He could have just as easily accidentally listed a scum buddies name because his scum buddies name was on his mind. I don't get scum vibes from Zoroaster though, I just think that the reasoning used to clear him is weak.

Also, Mastin - Why are your four suspects more suspect to you than BC. I notice that you put your four suspects in that grouping and said failing that, I could shoot BC or someone else (can't remember who at the moment and I'm trying to be quick). I think that BC's interactions and posts look for scummier than a couple people on your list.

Also, why are you just looking for four people for the scum team. Do you have any reason to believe that mafia has five players? Wouldn't it be possible that they had more if there was a dayvig in the set up?

[Tammy]

Tammy, are you on a team with BC?

Yes, I'm on a team with BC, that's why I said I wanted to shoot him, am voting him right now, and just got done asking Mastin why he wasn't scummier to him than the four he listed.

BC is a strong scum read. I'm just sorry I didn't push him yesterday, and pushed Melmond instead.

[Tammy]

BC should go independent of me. You should vote him right now. Get on a real justice wagon.

[Tammy]

No, there can be scum neighborizers just like there can be scum messengers. I had some minor suspicions about being neighborized especially since he asked for my four suspects with reasoning because he wanted to keep track of suspects, but really didn't share anything in the neighborhood. I wasn't going to say anything about it because I wanted to see how another night went and if anyone else joined the neighborhood and how that went too. But, you guys hammered me, so I wanted to make sure that my uneasiness was out there as well as confirmation about being neighborized.

[Tammy]

I know that now because you posted it when you asked about BC, but I didn't know it at the time when Ben and Pidgey were talking about hammering me.

[Tammy]

I'm not going to out the message. If it had information in it or I was suspicious of something I would, but it was just this person's thoughts about the game. They seemed paranoid their thoughts would get them killed and sent them to me. I know it seems silly but it just feels wrong to out the message.

[Tammy]

No, neighborhood is night talk only, which leads me to believe scum probably don't have day talk either. I got the message at the start of day.

[Tammy]

It's just passing the message along. There was no mod confirmed alignment, but it's the role where you can send a message to another player.

[Tammy]

Oh but it was sent to the mod and the mod sent it to me.

[Tammy]

Yeah you know what Pere, you need to step up your game here.

Why the FUCK would I want to die to kill cop-confirmed scum rather than just LYNCHING cop-confirmed scum?!!?!?!? Why trade when we can just lynch scum??????????? On a pure numbers basis that's retarded. Seriously? What?

If you're the PGO equivalent, you wouldn't die, right?

[Tammy]

I mean, am I on crack? In Otherworld when the PGO quadz was healed by the doctor, the doctor died. Anyone who targets the PGO dies, but the PGO lives.

[Tammy]

I'm confused where you're going with that AP. Pere is actually making sense. One - if Aco is a paranoid gun owner (or its equivalent) why isn't he jumping at the chance to have himself confirmed? He keeps getting worried about dying. If he is worried about dying, then he hasn't been completely up front about his role and he needs to. I'm surprised more people aren't seeing this.

Two - The sentiment that he most likely has to go before LyLo is sound. If you have an unknown, you don't go into LyLo with that unknown or town will lose almost every single time.

[Tammy]

Isn't that how it works? He kills anyone who targets him?

[Tammy]

The PGO is not confirmable; therefore, unless his town play has been flawless it creates too much doubt. Scum bring who they think they can win against to LyLo and if they think they can use the PGO's claim against him and create enough doubt to get the other town to vote him, they will. And there's been enough paranoia spread about this already, so he's a liability. Hell, I've advocated my own mislynch in a game when I was a VT and thought that scum were bringing me to LyLo with someone who refused to accept I might be town as I thought of myself as a liability.

[Tammy]

OOOOHHHHHH! *facepalm* Chalk this up to yet another game wehre I misunderstand something rolewise. *idiot*

[Tammy]

No! I've just thought this whole time that the PGO killed whoever targetted it and lived even if a killer targeted him. It didn't cross my mind that he died too.

[Tammy]

You actually think that BC and I are partners?

(I'm going to go cry in a corner that you think I'm that shitty of a distancer. Hope you're happy.)

[Tammy]

Hey Zoroaster - Vote WC/BC and join a righteousness wagon.

[Tammy]

I'm sorry for outing you as the neighborizer Nero. I got a little paranoid of you. And you're right, you did share more than I said you did.

[Tammy]

Also, and I'm not really sure how to handle this, but I received a message last night. I had this role once before and was told the basic purpose of it was to confirm that role and that someone took that action, instead of killing I guess, that night. Anyway, I dont know if i sould have kept that to myself, but ill be able to verify the sender if and when its necessary. For the last two parts, I feel the same and yes.

Did the mod tell you the player's name, or was this person's name included in the message as "hey Tammy, it's me ____."?

No the mod didn't tell me who it came from.

[Tammy]

@WC: yes to both.

Also Benmage is claiming a full Cop role with a guilty on her.

And we had a couple people slip multiball early right?

So the solution is multiball with a Day Kill Mafia and a Night Kill Mafia.

I'll go back and look up the slips.

This reads to me like someone who knows the set up and is playing like they don't.

[Tammy]

I've played multiball where scum gets investigative roles.

I just don't see Benmage!scum claiming to be a cop in a multiball game on day two. He prides himself on being perfect as scum and would believe he would be the team mate most likely to bring his team to victory (most likely); he wouldn't intentionally put himself in danger and weaken the scum team on day two after I dayvigged one of his members on day one.

Again, this sounds like intentionally throwing crap out to make it sound like you're trying to figure the game out.

[Tammy]

This reads to me like someone who knows the set up and is playing like they don't.

So you are confirming multiball?

No, this reads to me as someone who knows it's not multiball and is trying to make it sound like he thinks it's possible.

[Tammy]

No the mod didn't tell me who it came from.

Then what was with the whole, I'm not saying who sent it bravado?

The only thing I absolutely refused to do was out the message. I made sure you all knew about receiving the message for confirmation purposes as I didn't want the person to claim either at lynch or massclaim that they sent a message to me, and if I was gone not be able to confirm it and everyone claim he was a liar since I didn't say anything about it while here.

I've played multiball where scum gets investigative roles.

I just don't see Benmage!scum claiming to be a cop in a multiball game on day two. He prides himself on being perfect as scum and would believe he would be the team mate most likely to bring his team to victory (most likely); he wouldn't intentionally put himself in danger and weaken the scum team on day two after I dayvigged one of his members on day one.

This is very true.
[/quote]

Told you I'm not a liar.

Myk

[Tammy]

A game with no kills on day1 is not a multiball game. A SK that wishes to play to her WC after the town says "kill X or we kill you" will kill X. That's called self-preservation. Tammy-SK odds of victory are actually as close to zero as one can get. The only way that they stay a bit above zero is by following what the town says and hoping for a miracle. An extra lynch with the slight possibility of a miracle SK secret backdoor win sounds like a great deal to me.

The biggest draw should be forcing scum to target me for the night kill, but not enough people want to hear that. The worst thing is targeting me for a lynch effectively starts day three as if it were day one. Sure I targeted a possible mislynch today with Thad, but I vigged avox before he was able to actually give any relational tells. Lynching me today starts day three with not much but scum actually being somewhat ahead. They know who the cop is now, and they've already got a basic understanding on how to manipulate the rest of the people here. Town starts as a disadvantage lynching me today while there's only an advantage to keeping me around. :shrug:

[Tammy]

There hasn't been nothing over the last twenty pages. Even if some people haven't been scumhunting, *I* have.

WC continues to be very scummy. I think he knows very well this isn't multiball, and is just spreading crap.

There are no unknowns AP, and I didn't VIG BC because I had stronger suspicion of Thad at that moment. If he wouldn't have written that horrible case or came back to the game while we were discussing it, I would have more than likely shot BC. I should have pushed for his lynch yesterday instead of melmond.

Of course I'm going to work with the town.

Oh also pay attention to some of the people on my wagon. Snifit especially has really done nothing more than parrot benmage today. He needs to be evaluated more closely. Pidgey is somewhat guilty of this too except at a lower amount. But I think that some people are going to be likely to be supporting him in hopes that he'll avoid investigating them.

[Tammy]

Oh look KK, Tammy ALREADY DIDN'T SHOOT WHO WE TOLD HER TO. GUESS TODAY IS THE DAY TO LYNCH HER, RIGHT? RIGHT!

Bullshit. I didn't shoot who Benmage told me to. You might have suggested BC as well, but there was no majority of town there that night discussing things with me. I said I was choosing between BC or Thad or if anyone else had any suggestions. Myk told me about his list and I gave my opinions on it. You even admitted that Thad was looking suspicious so don't you go about rewriting history.

And the one thing that people aren't taking into consideration when they're talking about the town directing kills is me, actually. You know, I am a competent scum hunter, and you'll have my input as well. I might not be right all the time, and I have been duped before, but I'm still pretty decent at it and I'm good at evaluating people's cases. Scum is down one member because of me anyway. You can call that a luck shot all you want, but I had a scum read and I was right.

[Tammy]

Uh huh...cool story. For anyone spreading the mutifaction BS and that I'm part of some team. Take a deep breath and ask yourselves why benmage is still alive? Think about it.

[Tammy]

Benmage - I think you no that's not the case and you're pushing this possibility for the same reason you outed your role the other day - you were getting pissed that you weren't getting your way and people were arguing something different than what you were saying.

[Tammy]

I didn't reference asos. Where are you getting that? I don't even know anything about that game.

[Tammy]

Benmage - I think you no that's not the case and you're pushing this possibility for the same reason you outed your role the other day - you were getting pissed that you weren't getting your way and people were arguing something different than what you were saying.

Its a multi-theme'd game we have no idea what the setup is. Thats a strong point whether you wish to dismiss it or not.

You are guilty. You need to die. Even worse. Discussion has become a blackhole, if you were town, shit you'd be asking for your own head by now. I have done it before, if its the best course for town.

I'm going to the gym. This game is getting pathetic. Here comes the apathy. GJ Mastin.

I don't doubt I'm dying today. Half of you won't listen to the positives of leaving me alive to let the mafia take me out through night kill. I've still been scumhunting today, and don't discount hose just agreeing with you today. I bet you there's at least one scum hoping to get on your good side by agreeing/parroting.

[Tammy]

^^^ like this guy who's literally done nothing since replacing in except spread multiball crap theory and thrown suspicion on town for "slipping". And here he's trying to sound oh so protown by repeating to lynch me.

[Tammy]

Yes, I think zabriel's town, and I think you're going for easy suspicion and that's weak as hell.

Yeah, and so far I'm the only reason mafia is down a member too.

[Tammy]

I didn't reference asos. Where are you getting that? I don't even know anything about that game.

Mafia is down one member because of me.

And I'm not spreading my arms open wide.

I can prove it.

This spread arms open wide... seems to be the ongoing joke from ASOS the game I'm talking about. Where hsdgas(cow) dayvigged(as scum), and pretended to have a PR... his goto PR was *spread arms wide* (I think his icon now).

You sure you aint referencing it?

I didn't know the game. I just know that he did it once because I've heard about it. I thought it was in a team mafia game; I think it was brought up because chess kid tried to do the same thing this year iirc.

[Tammy]

I don't doubt I'm dying today. Half of you won't listen to the positives of leaving me alive to let the mafia take me out through night kill. I've still been scumhunting today, and don't discount hose just agreeing with you today. I bet you there's at least one scum hoping to get on your good side by agreeing/parroting.

As Im sure there's one in agreeance with Mastin/is Mastin.

I don't doubt that either...not sure about mastin I keep going back and forth...just don't discount the ones on my waon as good town folk because they're there. Scum don't want to have to waste a night kill on me tonight when they can just go after you, and they want to look good by being on my wagon. Pretty sure there's one on the keep Tammy around argument though, especially if they know it's not going to happen.

[Tammy]

I'd say backtracking scum to help push your lynch.

But the guilty trumps that... so cheah.

In that case look at kise, he was all for a 1v1 with KK at the start before he started pushing my lynch.

[Tammy]

Actually on my wagon the ones most likely to flip mafia are: wrathchild, snifit, kise and maybe pidgey. I think the other four are most likely town, though there is an outside chance of aco because of the way he responded to having his claim checked. That one I'd have to think about.

[Tammy]

pidgey - Thinks Tammy is a ditzy maverick.

I am so close to sigging this I love it so much.

[Tammy]

But she made the choice of ThAdmiral because she was pressured to prove her "vig" claim.

Someone gets it. I love how I'm getting "she went rogue and didn't shoot who we told her too" when there was a minority of people around, really not offering me much, and no one said not to shoot Thad...and it was very clear that's who I was leaning towards. It was my decision 100% and I take the blame for being wrong, but I didn't shoot Thad in the face of the town telling me to shoot someone else.

[Tammy]

Tammy

1. Why did you not shoot or vote Benmage? You keep saying you know he would know you are not Mafia if had investigated you. Why are you staking your position that he is effectively Town gambitting poorly and not backing off?
2. Why did you take so long to actually claim your Role Name? While I’m not big on ‘outguessing the Mod’ I am having some issues with the flavor of you kill compared to your claim.

1. I didn't shoot benmage because I have a town read on him. I'm not interested in shooting town. No, he would know I'm not mafia because I'm not mafia. That result is incorrect.

2. I didn't claim my role name right away because I was annoyed. I was in the midst of trying to prove my role by trying to Figure out who was the best person to vig. I was getting yelled at for not shooting quick enough, and I'd had enough. I think I demonstrated a lot of consideration that night in making sure I got something right, and people are now acting like they told me to shoot anyone but Thad and I shot Thad anyway. Anyway, that's a bit off-topic but I was more concerned with shooting right than appeasing their role name concerns. As far as out guessing the mod, I don't know, that's who I am. I'm good with explosives and once a day can fit someone with a bomb.

[Tammy]

And about her claim Johnny Sasaki... I can't remember a game where the SK was given a weak fakeclaim such as that. Sounds like something the mod would give to a goon.

Yeah, you're scum. Sucks I shot your roleblocker on day one, huh?

[Tammy]

Tammy didn't shoot me because she'd be lynched afterward.

And youre worried about me shooting you tomorrow, why again?

[Tammy]

IIRC, you weren't interested in figuring out why Ben had an incorrect result back when that was happening.

P-edit: Its ok Kise, Im scum because Im opposing KK's view.

Go back and read, you're playing revisionist with a lot of things. That's cute.

[Tammy]

I'm scum because I don't think you're town?
Sounds legit.

Are you talking to me? Nice incorrect reductionist theory there. Who's calling for my head the most? What do I think his alignment is?

[Tammy]

"Tammy could be BP!"
-- Wild (anti-town) speculation. Who the fuck is crying over the idea of scum shooting kevlar?

Strawman. My point is that the scumteam will likely never kill her. As long as she is alive, we will probably have these arguments nonstop. And they are distracting from scum. You said that her not dying today stops the argument, which is cute. I don't know what makes you think that, but that is a huge assumption to make. And when DO we lynch her then? She isn't just going to resolver herself nicely like you keep implying.

"Tammy won't listen and will shoot wildly!"
-- Tammy doesn't have a choice. We don't need her permission for this. We point. She shoots. Or she dies.

Yes she does. She can say anything as long as she backs it up with "Im not shhoting X, I have a townread there. Im town so I wont shoot town". And if she IS on a team, then she absolutely will shoot whoever she wants before going out.

"We must lynch a guilty result!"
-- Dogmatic thinking is the shittiest reason to do anything. Stop playing mafia is this is your argument.

"We have to deal with the SK"
-- So does scum. Especially if the SK is helping town.

"She could be part of a faction!"
-- Great. We control that faction's kill while Tammy is alive. What's the problem?

Except we don't. If she is in a faction, she will trade herself for Benmage sooner than later because she can't risk outing a buddy by being told to shoot them.

Am I missing anything? Why is town still on Tammy's wagon?

The debates are anti-town and accomplish nothing. Tammy will not resolve herself nicely like you think. She could be on a team which giver her tons of motivation to go rogue sooner than later.

Mykonian, why do you think MoI is scum?

This is dumb.

Mafia has to kill me. This is a fact.

If I were on a team, I would have shot benmage the other night. Simple. As. That.

[Tammy]

I can bold who I want to vig in thread or email it and it will happen.

Its super dumb that she can do both btw.

Still seriously believe its multiball and she did the bold thing today for credibility.

Take it up with the mod after the game. It clearly states in my role pm I can do both.

If I'm on a team, why is benmage alive?

[Tammy]

Why is the second scumteam theory so entrenched in you? There is zero evidence to support it. Occam's razor says SK.

Im saying its possible. The only reason Tammy has ANY reason to not just throw in the towel by now is if she is on a team. And Wrath Child is looking like an obvious Tammy buddy.

1. You don't know anything about me, and when or why I would throw in a towel.

2. I am insulted you thinnk WC could be my partner, he'll anyone could be a partner. If I were on a scum team, benmage would be dead. After killing the opposing scum teams roleblocker I would know that my time was short due to night kill if not lynching, therefore I would have done what I had to to keep my partner safe. That would not include me throwing suspicion on WC out the door. I'm not a moron.

[Tammy]

Tammy, is your power compulsive? Do you have to shoot every day? Can you shoot more than once per day?

No, I don't have to shoot, and yes I can only shoot once per day.

[Tammy]

WIFOM, WOOOOO

LLLOOOOGGGIIIICCCCC.

Sorry for spamming the thread by the way, I'm on my iPad and it's a pain to multiquote.

[Tammy]

You know even if some people have been fluffing it up over the past 30 pages, I haven't. I've still been scum hunting, you know.

I never said the message would get the person night killed. I said that the person who sent the message thought his message would get him night killed and so he sent it to me. His thought rang as true paranoia, and town. I'm just not telling the message. The mod did not identify the sender.

[Tammy]

I never said it would. He thinks it would. It was just his thoughts on the game, he thought his thoughts could get him night killed so he sent it to me. I'm not outing it. If I thought it was suspicious or had something to share I would, but it doesnt and I'm not so drop it.

[Tammy]

No. I gave you the information that I received the message so that at massclaim time or if he neared a lynch and claimed it would be confirmed. Otherwise, if he said he sent me a message and I hadn't said anything, he would be perceived as a liar. The sender of the message will 1) not be counterclaimed and 2) can use some of my posts as verification if he outs the message himself.

[Tammy]

I already said I didn't have day chat.

[Tammy]

This makes me sad.

Why?

[Tammy]

Well what would you do Yates? If someone sent you a message and seemed really paranoid that their thoughts would get them killed? Ive confirmed that I received the message. That's all I needed to do. The message isn't important. I realize it's silly, but still.

[Tammy]

I already said it was their thoughts on the game.

[Tammy]

There's nothing I can do about that Yates. Are you saying if I outed the message suddenly all the people on my wagon would realize what a great person I am and decide to keep me around? It's not going to change anything.

[Tammy]

2. I didn't claim my role name right away because I was annoyed.

And if I wasn’t so steadfast interested in getting Benmage to confirm his claim I would be voting you right now as this is a Newb reason and you are not a Newb.

Nope, I'm not a newb but I'm temperamental and stubborn.

I never said the message would get the person night killed. I said that the person who sent the message thought his message would get him night killed and so he sent it to me. His thought rang as true paranoia, and town. I'm just not telling the message. The mod did not identify the sender.

So you can give the information in the message without compromising the sender’s identity (since you don’t know it), think they are Town (from your other posts), and still refuse to provide information about a player’s perspective that should theoretically help Town out ?[/quote]

It won't help town out. I've given all the information that would help town. Why aren't you more interested in what was said in the neighborhood?

[Tammy]

Also, someone check the math for me. Myk is concerned about being put at evens. Actually lynching me today keeps you at evens.

[Tammy]

There's no need to be unnecessarily snarky.

Myk has mentioned more than once his oncern for being put at evens, saying if we didn't lynch me today, we shouldn't return to the discussion until the day after tomorrow because of evens. I realized he's off on what day would be evens.

The best reasons nor to take me out is to force mafia to deal with me through a night kill and allow me to continue to use my VIG shot to help town.

The neighborhood has nothing to do with my claim. You were wondering why I wasn't outing the message as if that would help town when it wouldn't, but you didn't ask what was said in the neighborhood, which I think would be something you would be more interested in.

[Tammy]

None of my play has been scum motivated.

I have given a basic run down of the neighborhood in [\post] and [post=1633]. You didn't notice that I was in a neighborhood? You said you read my iso and you saw when I name claimed. I said I was neighborized about 10 posts before I name claimed and gave the info about the neighbor three posts after I name claimed.

[Tammy]

Meh that should be post 1611 and 1633.

[Tammy]

scanned Tammy’s ISO to look for her claim,

You were saying?

Eh, my bad.

[Tammy]

Lie.

I never claimed to have relevant information for the setup. I only confirmed that someone sent me a message so that when they claimed it either at massclaim or at lynch it would be confirmed that they did.

I'd like for you to explain what benefit there is to me to make up recieving some message, and if it's made up why the hell aren't I making up some message?

Like seriously, logic. Please use it.

[Tammy]

Stop discussing me and making up stupid reasons about me being targeted and start damn scum hunting. I love how I'm pretty much the on,y one actually scumhunting today when I'm about to be lynched.

[Tammy]

Lie.

I never claimed to have relevant information for the setup. I only confirmed that someone sent me a message so that when they claimed it either at massclaim or at lynch it would be confirmed that they did.

I'd like for you to explain what benefit there is to me to make up recieving some message, and if it's made up why the hell aren't I making up some message?

Like seriously, logic. Please use it.

My point was ribwich said it for no reason. I only imagine to make him appear important to the game.

Likewise I am believing it more and more likely that you created the message thing, to make you appear more important to the game.

You can't actually believe that. I know you can't. I've said the message isn't alignment telling on its own or that the message didn't have anything game breaking in it. I've repeatedly said its only outed for confirmation purposes when that person claims his role. The message has nothing to do with me or my role in this game and I never said it did.

[Tammy]

How is this again. I've stated I would wok with the town, I've been scumhunting and giving reads this whole time that the debate has been going on. I don't have private information, that persons thoughts has nothing to do with me or whether I stay alive. I can't understand how people can think I'm even trying to promote that idea.

[Tammy]

I'm not even important. I told you to leave me alive to have mafia deal with me thought night kill. How is that me thinking I'm going to stay alive?

[Tammy]

Blah. WC is still scum. Don't know about moi. Think that both mastin and moi need to stop with the you're calling me scum but talking to me like I'm town so that makes you scum thing. Town make these types of posts all the time, because town don't know anything. It doesn't make them scum. You have to find really blatant slips for things like that and even then it's not a great scum tell.

[Tammy]

Oh and scum aren't going to be worried about bunching together on my wagon. I would be surprised to find all of them there, but the idea that scum won't bunch isn't very accurate. Sure, they tend not to, but meh.

[Tammy]

Good luck you guys

[Tammy]

I'm always town.