Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Unofficial Votecount:

Kise - 4 (Kublai Khan, mastin2, AngryPidgeon, jasonT1981)
snifit - 2 (Nero Cain, Kise)
Kublai Khan - 2 (Yates, snifit)
Benmage - 3 (Acosmist, zabriel, pidgey)
Acosmist - 1 (mykonian)
Tammy - 2 (Benmage, ThAdmiral)

Not voting - 5 (BloodCovenant, PeregrineV, Zoroaster, Tammy, rapidcanyon)

(myk changed from mastin2 to zabriel to aco
ThAd switched off PV onto Tammy
BC and RC are being replaced.)

---

Pretty sure Kise wagon is good.

[AngryPidgeon]

@Tammy: Who is scum? The only person I can see skimming your ISO is Snifit (who was a meh-scum read at best).

[mastin2]

Also, people've probably guessed, am a bit busy at the moment. Am trying to play, but am juggling three or four things at once; kinda hard to strike that balance. Extra difficult thanks to not getting much sleep last night and what little I did get not being restful. So in a word, at the moment, my head's not much in the game. Thinking two scum not voting, by the way, and remaining 2-3 scattered throughout the votecounts. 1-2 of them in the three (2) wagons (guess is on Kise and one of--but not both of--Benmage and ThAd), with the remaining scum on Benmage. Don't think it's a scumdriven wagon, but if Benmage is town, it has one scum on it.

Basically, looking at RC and one of PV/Tammy, one of Benmage/ThAd, Kise, and one of Zabriel/pidgey as a scumteam, off of the vc itself. No clue how well this stacks up against interactions with these individuals, though. Like I said before, lots of names in there seem to be suspicious of a lot of other names in said list, and I haven't crossreferenced things yet. Need to do that when I'm feeling a little more coherent.

Still, though, liking Kise-as-scum more than most. Who'd be the scum on the wagon? Not me, not AP, not jason, and I'm thinkin not Khan.
If there's no scum on the wagon, why aren't they interested in voting him?

See also 1377 for how relevant this is; most of the counterwagons right now feel as if they're meant to disintegrate the Kise wagon, just as in 1377 with the falling wagons on fitz and especially UN.

[Yates]

Also, people've probably guessed, am a bit busy at the moment.

Cry me a river. I'm in three games currently [my typical max] and just replaced in to two more. I have a CRAP TON of reading ahead of me.

[Benmage]

^
^^
Mastin shouldn't have replaced into additional games if he isn't giving the games he is in justice.
-Yates I don't know if your plagued by the same issue...
but my point again, why join more games if you can't play the games your in effectively.

That's about it.

@Zoro

You should vote Tammy. I'm sure you have a bunch of reading todo. Look at my post above your last one to see my comments and a link to ThAds points against Tammy.

[Yates]

why join more games if you can't play the games your in effectively.

Do you feel like I'm not playing this game effectively?

[Benmage]

why join more games if you can't play the games your in effectively.

Do you feel like I'm not playing this game effectively?

The ultimate judge there would likely be yourself.

I've been too disconnected from this game to even give that an accurate answer. I'd like to say yes, you have. But have you done the best you can? I don't know.

[Benmage]

^I didnt mean my previous statement as an attack on you Yates...more a rant against all people who overjoin games/don't give them 100% of their ability/replace out only to join new games etc etc... that type of person that doesn't recognize their commitment to the game the mod and others playing... well yeah.

[mastin2]

Busy with LIFE, not with games. As in, by tomorrow, will be fine. It's too short to declare a V/LA, since it's partially weekend-catchup (thanks to me taking the weekend off of mafia) combined with lack of sleep, and at most would be, like, 16 hours of "limited" access. (As you can tell, I'm still posting, it's just that the amount of thinking in each post is a lot less than normal, wjhich really says something. ) I know my game limit very well, and you're correct that I'm at it, but incorrect that I'm in any regards at less capacity than normal to play in this game.

It's just that TODAY, my posts are sub-par and not up to my normal capacity, since TODAY, I have a lot on m plate, combined with the lack of sleep. Hence, the slight incoherence. If you checked, you'd see this is the only game I'm in which is in day; I'm not juggling multiple games at all. I'm juggling three or four things, with two or three of them being real-life and the last being this oen.

[Benmage]

^Meh, than I don't think >24hrs of subpar activity requires pre-excuses.

@Yates

can you go into further detail why you didn't like ThAds case, primarily the two points I rehighlighted in I believe post 1198

[mastin2]

Was mnre a aerning about me multitasking at the moment, meaning that my thoughts for the rest of today will be slomewjhat scattered. Hence, the need for the warning. My posts are always slightly incoherent, 'cause I'm Mastin and making sense is typically a scumtell. But right now, they're going to be more incoherent than normal, hence the explanation. Like I said, juggling weekend stuff. Means that while I can give thoughts as I have them, I don't have the time to check the facts and stuff 'tl tomorrow.

[Yates]

that type of person that doesn't recognize their commitment to the game the mod and others playing

Fair enough. I think you were in another game with me where I went on a rant about how I would blacklist anyone that replaced out of my game only to pick up another.

I take pride in having never replaced out of a game and always playing to my win condition - even when my slot's outlook looks bleak. Conversely, I am notorious for replacing IN to games and saving slots.

But this is a conversation for end game. Will respond to more in a bit.

[Benmage]

I'll take an incoherent mastin over a 'quasi coherent one' ...

Mastin,

take a gander at the Tammy points. Look at even AP's statement that Tammys view on suspects and what I would say as scumhunting is altogether suspect. But she was relishing the idea to dismiss whatever reasoning I had for calling her scum. As in shes more interested in proving my points wrong, than actually scumhunting.

Thats a strong scumtell I've seen before (I forget if I saw MoI or Glork referencing it).. but yeah essentially just trying to find faults in other peoples arguments is an easier veil for scum to hide behind than to put fourth actual scumhunting(because theyre scum!)

[Tammy]

My gods Benmage you are so fucking annoying. If you're actually interested in reading my REAL alignment read my posts, please?

I never called pidgey town, so I don't know where you're getting that I buddied him by saying that. I've never even mentioned Pidgey yet.

I never tried to prove your points wrong. You pulled up that I'm not town because I'm not some beacon of townliness and I said I don't know why some people get an insta town read on me in one game and then think my halo doesn't shine bright enough in the next game and asked you to look at my motivations, which have been town-minded all game.

The only only thing I said you don't have is a cop guilty on me. That I know you don't have. I'm not asking you to out yourself as cop because if you were a cop you wouldn't be calling me confirmed scum and you definitely wouldn't try to get reads about THE PARNTERS I DON'T HAVE. Yeah, so I'm interested in why you think I'm confirmed. Best I think is that you guarded me or something last night and you think the missing kill is my fault, WHICH IT WASN'T.

You have to not be actually reading my posts to think I haven't been scumhunting this game. I thought Melmond was scum. I was wrong. In the case where I described my Melmond scum read, I said I had a leaning scum read on Blood Covenent, which I still do. I also had a scum read on snifit yesterday, but part of that was based on what looked like him calling Melmond scum but was avoiding his wagon, and I thought it indicated that they were partners. But they're not so my original thought was wrong and I need to do some evaluating.

[mastin2]

I'll take an incoherent mastin over a 'quasi coherent one' ...

Mastin,

take a gander at the Tammy points. Look at even AP's statement that Tammys view on suspects and what I would say as scumhunting is altogether suspect. But she was relishing the idea to dismiss whatever reasoning I had for calling her scum. As in shes more interested in proving my points wrong, than actually scumhunting.

Thats a strong scumtell I've seen before (I forget if I saw MoI or Glork referencing it).. but yeah essentially just trying to find faults in other peoples arguments is an easier veil for scum to hide behind than to put fourth actual scumhunting(because theyre scum!)

This is actually exactly the kind of argument I needed to hear from ya, Benmage. It gets you almost entirely out of the suspect list (not *quite* ready, but definitely on the right track--will wait ;til tomorrow when I can do more research to confirm), and puts Tammy into the line of fire--she's been null, so I can easily buy her being scum. Will check.

Butyeah. Your scumtell looks good, as does the fact that Tammy's not acting quite like I've come to expect jher to as town.

[mastin2]

That said, Benmage, is there a reason that you think Kie is town?

If you think he's town, why do you think his nice juicy 4 wagon seemlingl has no scum on it? Or do you have a suspect on the wagon?

[Yates]

@Yates can you go into further detail why you didn't like ThAds case, primarily the two points I rehighlighted in I believe post 1198

Yup.

I'm kind of torn on the whole "look how obviously effing Town I am!" scum tell. I've done that as frustrated Town - but typically only after "proving it" in some way [uncountered claim, accurate result, caught scum, etc.]. So I guess I see your point on Tammy in the sense that she hasn't earned her "halo," as she puts it.

I'm realizing that I may have jumped the gun on calling ThAd "scum," but let's call it gut for now. Well, maybe more than "gut" in that his meta doesn't seem to fit his typical Town play from the games I have been in with him. Obviously, the biggest issue I had was ripping on Tammy whom I believe is Town [and seemingly lonely in that opinion?]. I hadn't really considered a scum angle for the messenger so that weakens my read a lot.

I can't really argue a lot of those points as they require a lot of confirmation bias and I'm on the flip side of that bias [similar to why I disagree with KK]. So, he is ascribing scum points to Tammy asking for reads [because he thinks she is scum] whereas I see it as her not really following along and looking for the easy way out [which she did as Town in a game I killed her in as scum]. I agree that the "survivalistic" scum tell is crap, but that doesn't make Tammy scum. It just means she's flinging a case at the wall to see what sticks.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, she is posting "My mind is a bit hazy now" and "Oh noes - mah head is foggy!" in other games as well. So I'm not buying it as a scum gambit.

I think the only thing ThAd might have on her is his last point where she is calling you out. If I read that assuming she is scum, that could sound like a GF type of role that's saying it's impossible to have a scum read on them. Then again, if she's Town she could have the same reaction, right?

Basically, I think the case on Tammy is that she's being lazy. *shrug* To me that's pretty null.

Anyway, my vote is still on KK. I'm not even super comfortable with that vote anymore. There are a lot of people in here randomly pinging scum bells but no one is really setting off that alarm. I feel like any minute someone is going to slip up and I'll spot that "ah ha!" post.

[Tammy]

But you're right on one point--Tammy's meta reason for clearing me isn't very good. In multiscum games, my scumplay is actually at its closest to my townplay as it can be.

So, I'm saying that you're not acting like you did in the game we played together when you were scum and therefore I think it's more likely that you're town. And you rebut that by saying no I'm not right because you play multiball as close to town play.

Am I understanding you right? You're saying that your multiball play is closest to your town play? I'm saying that your play there was different from your play here, so, whatcha trying to say Mastin?

[Tammy]

Yates - I'm not saying I'm obviously town. I don't know where anyone would get that. It's just that people expect for me to be extreme Town Tammy, and when I don't do x they think I'm scum. The only thing I can say is to look at my motivations, which have been town. I'm not saying that I'm TownTownTown.

[Yates]

The only thing I can say is to look at my motivations, which have been town. I'm not saying that I'm TownTownTown.

These two sentences are mutually exclusive. You can't say, "look at how all of my motivations are Town!" in one breath then say "I'm not calling myself Town" in another.

[AngryPidgeon]

Tammy, scum reads?

Do you have any?

[mastin2]

That your meta on me's not valid. If for no other reason than because this bame's obviously not multiscum. And you hsave to remember, in the endgame, it really wasn't anything that I said which contributed to my lynch. It was my predecessor, along with Cooldog. I was playing that whole game to my town self (especially given my approach to d1), no more so than on the last day. I said it then, and I'll say it again, had Nacho's and my positions been reversed, him the scum and me the town, my endgame play woulda been pretty much identical. Maybe there'd have been a slgiht difference I would never be able to detect, but it'd be soo slight that it'd be inivisble.

And after that game, I went on vacation for a few months. And wjen I came back, I promised to turn a new leaf, anyway, meaning that meta really isn't that applicableto me yet. You can read the last day of 1377 to get an idea of why. (Search for spoiler tags--under one of them, I say a far more explitative "screw meta", and explain the concept there.) The fundamentsal of my play may be the same, but the specifics will be different. You saw me in GvE, CvL under specifics. So your meta reason for me being tonw is omvalid. Just like AP's meta on me, since his meta's only based on one game. It's a more recent game, and I'm town here as well, bit that doesn't mean his meta tell is actually balid.

Basically, nobody can use meta to think I'm town right now. Sure, by play they can, since it's quite obvious with my general mindset and all that that I'm town, but on meta, not really. Not off of resemblance to town game, not off of lack of resemblance to a scum game, least of all a multiscum game.

[mastin2]

(Was to tammy. Funny thing 'botu multitasking, it takes you longer than normal to type things, so when you hit submit... )

[AngryPidgeon]

bit that doesn't mean his meta tell is actually balid.

I said my previous experience with you wasn't getting me anywhere. Null. I pretty much don't make meta cases.

[Tammy]

You know what I think is interesting? Is that in the post right above this blatantly horrible case, you posted a link to a town game of yours. I loosely followed along that game, and in that game you demonstrated a much better understanding of people's motives. As you, rightly, brag about your realization that a suspicious claim came from town rather than scum. So, it surprises me a bit to see this case here. The thing is I don't really know what to do with your alignment with it, because if you're mafia, you would know I'm not one of your partners so I can't see how you would build such a case. But, I can't see it coming from town either. Makes things much more difficult when deciding what my read is on you.

Decided to do an iso of tammy because, you know, why not.

Turns out...
She is actually scum!

Have a look at these:

Melmond I'm voting you because I have a scum read on you. There's a lack of something to hold onto in your posts.Your case on BC was bad, in that it felt forced. I believe that you believe it

but I got a sense of a possible bus/distance going on between you, and you are a stronger scum read for me than he is.

Later I didn't like you asking why we were voting you, this could be personality but meh. There were never more than four votes on you and no more we're piling on so it read as you being too overly concerned about how you were being viewed. I also don't like your wagon hop onto cyber. If you have a strong scum read, why aren't you trying to push it? Also, why are you voting cyber? You didn't give a reason other than him being the best wagon that's going on right now. Why is he the best? Your jump onto cyber feels a bit survivalistic, which also reads weird to me because you only had three votes and no one else was saying they would jump on.

This is her case on melmond.
"I believe that you believe it"? Then how can he be scum?
Asking why people were voting him? Maybe this was because no one (especially tammy herself) gave reasons.
The stuff about "survivalistic" is crappy as well.

I bolded the relevant part for you there. I thought I saw bussing/distancing and some possible coaching from Blood Covenent who I also had a scum read on. I can absolutely believe he believed he had a case on someone I believed was his partner. I was wrong about them being partners.

Yeah, sometimes scum spend a lot of time asking why people are voting for them. I was wrong about him...it was personality.

So, it was my interpretation. I was wrong.

Thad - can you explain your ap read? I'm sorry if you actually do somewhere, it's late. I have no good read on him, and fully admit is playstyle sits in my blind spot.

This is going to become something of a trend - basically "faking a read on someone is hard - I'll just get someone else to do it or say the person is 'weird'".
Also, as was brought up by someone else (kk or ben), she constantly is making excuses for herself to allow for the fact that, you know, her reads are weak or she just lynched town.

I never called anyone weird. In fact, if I thought someone was weird, they'd probably get a town read from me.

Faking a read on someone isn't hard to do. Faking a read on someone is the easiest thing to do in mafia. Getting it right is the hard thing.

I don't constantly make excuses for anything. I don't need to make up an excuse for lynching town. I had a scum read. I was wrong. My reads aren't weak. I have very strong town reads. Do I need to re-evaluate some things? Yes, because I WAS WRONG ON DAY ONE. Of course I want to look back over and see where I went wrong. Some people move on without a thought, I go back over and make sure that I feel good about the other reads I have.

This is because you think my halo isn't shining as brightly as you think it should? I don't know why some games people get an insta-town read on me and the next think I'm not the beacon I should be, but if you look at my actions this game, every single one of them have been town-motivated. I can't believe you can't see that.

Who, other than scum, claims that "every single one (of my actions) have been town-motivated"? And begs the question: "I can't believe you can't see that"?
This is like a minor scumclaim. Can't believe I missed this earlier.

I'm getting blamed for not being a beacon of townliness. I get this often from people who play a game with me and then play another and think I'm not shining as brightly as I did in that other game and think I must/might be scum. I was saying to look at my motivations. I don't know why I'm not as TOWN TOWN TOWN, but my motivations should show it. Motivations is where you should always be looking. Didn't you even say that in the link you posted?

And no, btw, I'm not claiming who messaged me right now. I'll leave that up to discussion for what's the best course of action. It will be outing one person's role and will be narrowing the pool for everyone else. I made sure it was there for confirmation purposes. And, I'm not outing the message either. If the sender wants to say what they sent to me that's their prerogative. It was no big secret and nothing great and game changing so there's no need whatsoever; it was just one person's thoughts about the game I'm not going to violate that. Also, I'm fairly certain the sender of the message is on your town list and is someone I very strongly believe to be town as well; that's pretty much all I'm going to say about that.

This reads to me as: "look at how protown I'm being - I'm leaving everything up for the discussion of the town like a good townsperson would!".
But then also rounds down who the person could be by saying that they're on benmage's and her townlists. You know, just for lulz, and with the implication that if we keep asking about it it would be "scummy" as we might be "outing a town!".

This is bullshit. I said in the original post that I wasn't sure how to handle it because I've only seen the role once, when I had it. As far as outing the sender, yes, if everyone says that's what should be done then I will, other than that no. It's only there for confirmation purposes anyway. I didn't want to forget to post that I'd receive it and then get NK'd or lynched and afterwards that person claim to have sent me a letter on day one and have no confirmation.

I never once implied that anyone was scummy for asking. Your whole case is such a blatant misrep that I can't believe you wrote this with a straight face.

And no, I'm not outing the message. I don't even care if I get lynched for not doing it, ya'll can yell at me for playing against my wincon or having a fucked up sense of right and wrong all you want after game, but I'm still not going to do it.. The message isn't game breaking. It doesn't have information, just one person's thoughts. And this person seemed to think that his thoughts could get him night killed so he sent it to me. The thoughts read genuine paranoia and TOWN to me, and even though I know that this role isn't alignment dependent they seem to think it does.

Also, Mastin's probably town. I had a town read on Cyber anyway and the Mastin read is just stronger. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Mastin, but when we played in GvE together and he thought I was a member of the opposing scum team, he didn't come after me like this. The most of what he said was that I was terribad, but wouldn't really elaborate. The way he went after snifit so strongly reminds me nothing of how he behaved as mafia. And no, meta's not everything, but his tone is completely different. I'm not sure about when he jumped off his suspicions, my minds a bit hazy right now, so I'll need to look at that again...hopefully tomorrow.

I also need to look at snifit closer, his most recent post read really genuine, and some of what I had assumed about him was based on Melmond flipping guilty, which he didn't, so re-evaluations are in order. Hopefully I'll feel better tomorrow and can make sense of some things then.

"My mind is a bit hazy now" = another excuse.
And the whole "I need to re-evaluate things because I was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sure melmond would be scum" is forced to me.
(also a bonus excuse is tacked on at the end, just in case one per post wasn't enough.

There are no excuses. Have you ever been sick? For the past four days I've slept 18-20 hours each day and eaten nothing but popsicles and crackers. I'm not trying to AtE it, but I could have easily just declared V/LA because I was sick but I tried to keep up as best I could. Yeah, my head was foggy. I'VE BEEN SICK.

Like seriously. I'm just baffled right now.

I still have stuff to go through in this game. I'm only feeling a little better and have real life work to catch up with before mafia so that will probably be tomorrow.

But real quick - Ill read and think about your mastin stuff later. My head is so foggy I had to read it three times to understand what you were saying.

Ben - my aco read is weird. I can't read players that play like him as he seems like he's half trolling half real playing. I think the pro claim makes him lean town, but the static ness of his reads leans scum. Like his read on you is weird as I think you're pretty strongly town, just infuriating, and his "until someone tells me youre bad at mafia, I'm keeping you as scum" reads really weird. As it is, he's the type of player I'd not be able to find a reason not to vote for if not for the pgo thing.

"Oh noes - mah head is foggy!". Yup - another excuse.
And also remember how I mentioned earlier how if she finds it too hard to fake a read she will just copy someone else or say they are "weird" which doesn't mean anything? Yeah, she does that here with aco.

Where did I copy anyone? I can fake reads. Faking reads is easy to do. I never called Aco weird, I said that my read is weird and that something read weird. Did you also miss the next post a few down? That would be Post 1117 right after the post you quoted. Also, whenever I've not been able to get a read and have decided to sheep a strong town read that I trust. I'm very upfront about that.

I cannot wait to find out why it is that Benmage knows what he thinks he knows. If he investigated me he'd know I wasn't scum.

I don't have any partners Benny-Boy, so gathering up people's reads on me or interactions with me or my reads on others are going to get you nowhere but send town on an awful wrong path.

Does this sound like scared scum to anyone else?
(I know you're all over this jason - unless you were joking - in which case you're totally partners with her!)

vote: tammy

Nope! I don't get scared as scum. I consider myself to be the most expendable member of any scum team, because I despise being scum.

I'm serious. I can't wait to find out why Ben thinks I'm confirmed scum. I'm really interested in that. If I have to wait until after game to find out, I have to wait until after game to find out. Still really interested.