New York 180 (Endgame)

[Ozgin]

UNVOTE:

I have some reading to do, and reading to do fast.

[Ozgin]

So I'm reading the thread and asking myself "why is the NJ wagon happening?"

Because I still don't have a clue why it exists and nobody seems willing or able to tell me why.

While anyone is at it, can someone give me the run-down on both the wagons currently? It'll help me catch up quicker.

Also, read ika's ISO for Votecounts, and I noticed something funny: SilverWolf has been the 3rd vote on every major wagon after the first VC, which is interesting to me. 3rd and 4th votes always seem to be where wagons tend to start, and I read on a mafia tell wiki that it's actually a pretty scummy thing to do (I think it was JEEP's tells, but from what I understand they're outdated-ish?). I dunno, just a strange happenstance I noticed. Doing more reading now.

Anybody's particular ISOs I should look at first? I'm already going to do klings, NJs, and MathBlade (because of that Ellie post just now).

[Ozgin]

I can mostly see where you're coming from but your bit on not voting for survival is a nulltell at best.

Can someone explain why NJ is being voted? I think I asked already I don't think anyone answered.

I can't speak for everyone else but the votals made me want to reaction test and I did not like NJ's reaction nor their follow up. More details are in my ISO.

So I've read MathBlade's ISO first and I don't like the points against NJ:

1) Yes, some people take trolls seriously. Some people feed the trolls. I don't think this is scummy. It makes NJ look like a stick in the mud who lacks humor, but certainly not scum.

2) So... he's scum because.. he didn't get confused? Levelheaded = scum? Well shit, there are a lot of scum in every game ever played then.

3) I'm not informed enough about the events of this thread to know how NJ is or is not accusing Kitz of something they themselves were doing (hypocrisy), so this is a null point to me.

4) I don't even understand what this means. Null Point.

5) I don't get this, either. You think they're not doing enough? Like being lazy? Or do you think they're not scumhunting

correctly

? Laziness is pretty scummy, but I don't think the latter of my interpretations (scumhunting incorrectly) is necessarily a scum tell. They could have just been mistaken.

If these points are the shortened version of the arguments for NJ being scum, then coming in from the outside and seeing this, I don't think it's a strong case.

Wake & Oz:

Vikingfan claimed cop at L2 or L3 I believe so there was pressure
ABR, under no pressure, claimed town tracker
Klingoncelt under light pressure (less than half a wagon) claimed Vanilla and then later claimed that town would lose if they lynched her
NakedJoggers like a few others (pisskop and Boonskiies) focused excessively on the newer players such as myself or Kitz or etc to be scum but don't really pursue\hunt\question or ignore attempts to answer questions. NakedJoggers also seemed to want to elicit reactions from me or Kitz but probably not the kind he expected. Then see MathBlade ISO.
Also resistance to NJ's lynch makes me wonder.

Boonskiies you're NOU is boring, do you have any other scumspects or want to actually lead a wagon on with you know reasoning? Also totally shipping Dragonboon or Boonspawn. Also, you a TVD fan?

Just saw this before I posted. I like this argument against NJ better than the 5 points MathBlade presented, because it's an elaborated version of the only part of her 3rd point I sort of agree'd with. I don't understand the elicit reactions part, though. Can you explain that a little more? I'm also gonna look at the Kling ISO/wagon next, then NJ, and then I'll look into the one Boon said to.

I also like that you included the sort of pressure the players were under.

Thanks for the help guys!

[Ozgin]

EBWOP - Her 5th point, not her 3rd.

[Ozgin]

Hey, Klingcelt, does your butt hurt?

You know, from that fence you keep sitting on

Ask the other USMBers that one. Hopefully they'll set you straight. Or I could.

I don't like voting unless I'm pretty sure.

There is one thing that I'm 100% sure of - if I get lynched today, Town will lose the game. Guaranteed.

I don't like this arrogance. Like yeah, every townie is vital to our success, because our goal is basically to survive, but one mislynch won't put us in the coffin.

I also don't like that Klingon refers to everyone as "town", as if they were separated entities from herself:

"Town will lose the game."

In 1444 and in 1446 she also referred to the "town" as a separate entity like, "HEY TOWN" and "Town, ignore him." But I'm pretty sure that's just my petty obsession with semantics.

As far as the wagons go, I don't care for either the NJ or the Kling wagon. Even though I don't particularly like the way Klingon interacts with the town, I don't think that makes her scum. I think her post 1450 was just an idle threat because she's desperate. Even though elusive (I think it was elusive, my short term is scrambling to absorb all of this information) raised the only point against NJ I could kinda see, it still just feels wrong to me. It feels like a stretch.

If it comes down to a forced decision, I'll be more inclined to vote Kling out of the bias I formed in the last 10 minutes of reading her posts, but that's because I think both wagons are dumb and they should only be voted on if need be because of the time constraint.

@Everyone:

If you had to choose between pisskop, Ellie, and vikingfan, which would you go for and why?

BONUS:

List these three in order from most suspicious to least.

Let me do a little research, I'll get back to you on that in a little bit, but with so little time left I don't think this is going to be fruitful until Day 2.

[Ozgin]

NakedJogger, he was reading at a point and also he knows certain players meta. I don't know why all your scum reads are so easy. Easy here is players who's natural style is not all deductive logic or psychological reaction testing.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I am curious. Just because someone knows some players' metas, and read some parts but not all of a game, does that make them of ample mind to vote accurately?

I would venture to say that if people don't understand the context of recent events, it's hard for them to get involved in recent events. I sympathize with Grib because I'm behind too as a replacement but I know that if I don't get a grasp on these wagons and the current mindset of everyone at the moment then I'm going to fall behind and be marginalized into lurking. Simply because posting would make me look and feel really stupid if I don't know what's going on! That's my current struggle, and I can understand Grib's.

However, Grib, I don't agree with just not reading. It'll be faster to read and catch up on the main events of the recent history of the game than it would be to throw yourself into the mix and struggle until things make sense. It would take longer for you to just throw yourself in and adapt fully to the situation than it would to just ISO the vote counts and read 8-10 posts before and after each one, at least.

And even if you

can

just jump into the water and start swimming, you'll be disoriented no matter what happens. You'll inevitably swim in the wrong direction. By this, I mean even if you jump into the game and hope to find your bearing, you'll still be missing information which may ultimately result in you pushing wagons for no good reason or making yourself look like a scum.

Moral of the story, kids, is to read a damn book.

This message has been sponsored by your local library.

[Ozgin]

EBWOP:

book

thread*

-PS-

I did this EBWOP on purpose

[Ozgin]

FA_Q2 -- Let me be clearer. Anyone voting Ellie better vote me first because I will defend her to my dying breath. Got it. And hence another reason VF's claim is full of shit. I should know. I have faked guilties twice believably so now I'm fucked if I ever draw cop

@Ozgin -- Ask ika post game. I'm better as a replacement than I am at the start of games. I'm a lethal end game replace.

I think it's all relative to how far into a day you are, because if I replaced in at the start of day 2 and not the end of day 1, I'd have an easier time because I haven't formed any biased opinions about people and a lot of the white noise happening would be cleared away. Everyone loves to "get right down to business" after a lynch.

But I agree with the sentiment that we need to close a wagon and close one fast. Who is actually closer, Kling or NJ?

I believe if I vote Kling it puts her in hammer range, last I checked?

[Ozgin]

VOTE: klingoncelt

I'm not really seeing the NJ scumread, klingon is closer to lynch and I did a small read on klingon that also in part explains why I don't think she fits the town bill.

She is now 1 vote away from hammer, I went back through the last 7 pages and looked at the vote changes.

[Ozgin]

Cowardly scum and their ridiculously unfashionable scum underlings, boo boo boo.

Well considering I'm going away for a bit, and for what may be the probable remainder of the first day, I'm obliged to give my vote to whomever is closer to lynch, considering there's just over 6 hours left in the day. I'll be back probably in half an hour or so, if things slip towards NJ in that time then I'll change my vote. But considering I don't necessarily like either of them for this lynch, and since everyone seems insistent on pushing a lynch on one or the other, it only makes sense to me to vote for kling since this puts her at L-1.

[Ozgin]

That wasn't meant for you in particular.

If people really think that both wagons are town or are are uneasy on them then GET THE FUCK OFF.

Meh, 15 minutes have passed. I was expecting to be gone longer... I must have inhaled that food.

Anyways, elusive (or Estival if that's what you prefer now..?), even if I want to not vote either of them, I even more so want to lynch someone today for the sake of progression.

If you can bring 2 more votes to NJ then I'll be on board. I'll try my hardest to check back here before midnight (the day ends at 1AM in my time), but if I don't see a change of tide or if I simply am unable to make it back on time, I'm sorry. I really am. But a no-lynch is much worse than a potential mislynch.

[Ozgin]

I don't believe in lynching for the sake of lynching especially day one. 9.9 times out of 10, day one lynches in my small experience have been of town. However, barring that the night kill should provide data as well so its not as if the lynch going through in itself would provide some spectacular game breaking insight.

You vote people to pressure them, to reaction, or test the waters but you don't vote people because everyone else's doing it. The lynch vote should be your strongly held belief that this person should die for their crimes against the town.

I think we get data from both the day lynch and the night kill. We can't just sit around and wait for Nightkills for clues as to who the scum are. I've had a lot less experience than you, but even in MY very little experience, I don't think a no-lynch day is productive or positive.

While I'm not confident that kling or NJ are scum, I'm also not confident that they're town. I'm more confident in kling being town than I am NJ, but if I had to put it to numbers it'd be like:

Person (Town Likelihood in % | Scum Likelihood in %):

klingoncelt (40|60)
NJ(30|70)

I mean it's really close, both of them are lean scum to me, and I don't wanna let a day go lynchless when there's a possibility that either of them could be scum.

If you can get one or two more votes toward NJ, I'll happily change my vote, but I can't bring myself to risk leaving the thread for a few hours and coming back to an unproductive, lynchless D1.

[Ozgin]

Well, I feel like shit now for letting that happen. I didn't see it coming from NJ.

If Kling flips town, NJ will be the first person I'm going to look at as scum.

On the reverse, though, if Kling flips scum I'll have a really hard time believing NJ is scum, as well.

[Ozgin]

Voice message from NJ

In case anyone was wondering what this was, I took the leap of faith and clicked it -- It's a robot recording that basically says "Fuck all of you" in some fashion.

[Ozgin]

There is one thing that I'm 100% sure of - if I get lynched today, Town will lose the game. Guaranteed.

I don't like this arrogance. Like yeah, every townie is vital to our success, because our goal is basically to survive, but one mislynch won't put us in the coffin.

I also don't like that Klingon refers to everyone as "town", as if they were separated entities from herself:

"Town will lose the game."

In 1444 and in 1446 she also referred to the "town" as a separate entity like, "HEY TOWN" and "Town, ignore him." But I'm pretty sure that's just my petty obsession with semantics.

You're right, it is. What am I supposed to say? "Everyone in Town that isn't me?" "The rest of you guys?" "Those that aren't Scum?"

Like I said, I have a petty obsession with semantics. I would just expect someone on the town side to use words like "we" or address the general population. Like "We're gonna lose" or "Hey guys/folks/people!" or "I think we should ignore him." I would typically only think a scum would address the town in 3rd person.

Make note that I address town in 3rd person here for clarity, which is different than doing it arbitrarily.

[Ozgin]

Sorry guys, real life been bringing down the hammer on me. I just read up on the day. Here we go...

Read this again: no matter what ika says,

players are never told if they are protected in normal games on this site

. vikingfan lied. Why would he lie about being protected? He is insecure about how his survival looks and tried to compensate for it by fabricating an explanation for it. He made a mistake in site meta.

He needs to be quicklynched ASAP.

So this is probably the most argued thing that has come up in the last few pages, the idea of whether or not people are informed when they're healed. ika gave a very neutral response, literally the most null wording possible. Is there any official source material that specifically says it is 100% impossible? Or maybe that it's just unlikely? I mean, if it's ambiguous in the rules, then it's about as null of an argument as you can get -- you simply cannot know if vf's telling the truth or not.

That being said, regardless of whether or not vf got a response, I just don't know that I believe the story. The whole "I got shot, revived, my read roleblocked, and two people actually died last night."

If we assume pisskop used his roleblock on vf, that still means there are three sources of attack at night phase. I'm a noob here, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but are there not only like, 5 ways someone can be killed at night in a normal game? How likely is that?

It's just so much

unlikeliness

happening in this story, but I'm not prepared to bring the thunder down on vf because I really think it's possible for him to just have garbage luck.

I think vikingfan is a town cop and telling the truth, but I am okay with his death and will probably hammer him if he reaches L-1.

I really liked Ellie for town until this post. I mean, what pro-town player in their right mind says, "I think player x is town, but I'm okay with killing player x." Especially if you think the "player x" is not only town, but also a fucking cop. This is just bad. Even if Ellie isn't scum, this certainly is not a pro-town read.

ABR I feel ika's covering for vf is kinda pro-vf's claim - I also have meta to do, so I'd appreciate you not running him into the noose.

Can you tell me in what way ika has defended vf? I read ika's response as very neutral, and particularly designed to not give a confirmation nor a denial. I mean, I think it's more or less just the fact that a bunch of people were confused and asking for help.

Sorry, I realized during the night that I had mixed up my role pms with another game. I'm unfortunately a VT. My bad...

Ugh. I don't know how to read ABR. But I keep imagining myself looking back to this post after the game and asking

why

exactly we didn't lynch him for it

Bingo.

People, think of it this way. WHY is ABR posting so much content today than he has the entire rest of the game? He is admittedy either A, an idiot, or B, a scum liar. He admittedly fakeclaimed day 1 and now wants us to let him off the hook for getting his role PMs mixed up instead of specifically LOOKING AT HIS PM. A careful town would make sure he quotes the right PM. A scum would not. And he's used words like 'us' (who is us, pray tell?) and is trying to get us to quicklynch me (something which is NOT beneficial for town).

Consider what the end result is for him. Lynch me, lynch him, he's accomplished a mafia for a cop trade. More to the point, he has used so much town attention on me that it is difficult for town to figure out what else is going on. Quicklynching only furthers that goal.

VOTE: ABR

BTW, ABR, there are probably several other scum in this game. Mind giving your opinion on other players besides me? I haven't heard any today.

So this feels very OMGUS, and desperate. It's almost like what a frustrated townie would say, but I really don't like the arguments he made.

Like me - I'm posting today after taking a while to respond, I missed the mass day-start PM

and

RL shit on me. I have a few reasons to be slightly delayed in my responses. Now I went on to read the day and make a nice wall for people to look at.

Does that make me scum in your eyes? My sudden increase in post rate?

What makes him an idiot? (Ad Hominem attacks don't help you, trust me I know). A scum he probably would be if you got lynched and flipped town, but how has he lied? He just seems like he's a town who genuinely believes you scumslipped.

The only thing I agree with is this weird "I read the wrong PM" thing, but it's (in my opinion) much more believable to me that a player (regardless of experience) who just got a little flustered and clicked the wrong role PM, because ABR plays (from what it seems) a lot of games.

Do we really believe we have three separate attackers going on?

This wasn't directed at me, but this pretty sums up my skepticism about the whole issue. The question is, how probable is it that 3 attackers is the case? I mean, obviously we have the scum. Next, we either have a vigilante and a serial killer, or some other power role and a serial killer, or two power roles (probably including vigilante).

Me, elusive, goodmorning, you, SilverWolf. Ozgin and Shinobi are probably town, but not as strong. Why dragonspawn?

I'm probably reading into semantics (again), but why do you say "Me,...are probably town,..."? Why do you equate yourself to probable town? I'm not gonna push too much here, though, because last time I was sticky about semantics I was dead wrong, but just something that never fails to grab my attention.

Unrelated to my responses above:
Did we all forget how NakedJogger did that really scummy hammer "Lights out bitches" thing? It's just been bugging me since night happened, and it's gonna be hard for me to get over. The only reason I'm not scolding NJ for it is because a) before his hammer on kling I didn't really think he was scum and b) Since the hammer, NJ has been active and contributing.

-P.S.-

That took me so long to type, I'm surprised nobody has posted before I submitted it.

[Ozgin]

Is there any official source material that specifically says it is 100% impossible? Or maybe that it's just unlikely? I mean, if it's ambiguous in the rules, then it's about as null of an argument as you can get -- you simply cannot know if vf's telling the truth or not.

To restate, the official source material says nothing against it, which means it's possible. It is, however, reasonably unlikely.

That being said, regardless of whether or not vf got a response, I just don't know that I believe the story. The whole "I got shot, revived, my read roleblocked, and two people actually died last night."

If we assume pisskop used his roleblock on vf, that still means there are three sources of attack at night phase. I'm a noob here, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but are there not only like, 5 ways someone can be killed at night in a normal game? How likely is that?

Let's analyse this assuming he's telling the truth.
Mafia don't want to be investigated, for obvious reasons, so they RB him. Maybe they take a shot at him. More likely they settle for the RB because they assume he'll be protected. We'll guess for the sake of the exercise that they killed Boon.
Now there are several other possible players:
Wolves: maybe shot pisskop. Or maybe they weren't willing to take the chance that the Cop could be Maf-only.
SK: There's no real precedent afaik for Cops finding SKs. However, a good SK strategy is to make the Town implode while you steadily pick off the real threats at Night. Losing a PR would help that along. SK could also have thought he WAS aiming for Scum, see next:
Vig: viking's claim was apparently scummy enough that people didn't trust it, which makes him a reasonable target for an impatient or egoistic Vigilante.
Now, we know at least one of these exists because they shot pisskop (presuming no Bus Drivers, which I'm presuming because I want it to be true). If more exist then viking's claim is possible.

The only thing I agree with is this weird "I read the wrong PM" thing, but it's (in my opinion) much more believable to me that a player (regardless of experience) who just got a little flustered and clicked the wrong role PM, because ABR plays (from what it seems) a lot of games.

Back when I had more time for Mafia, I routinely was in 9 games at once. I think my maximum was 13 simultaneous games. And I never once forgot my role in any of them.

You can make of that what you will, but he's already tried to set himself up as superior to the rest of this playerlist. I wonder.

I think I can accept the stuff on ABR (like how odd it is to forget a role, and how you've never had that issue). However, all of the scenarios you give for VF are pretty unlikely. Werewolves scenario is most plausible, but I don't think a town-aligned vig would shoot VF for the same reason the doctor protected him: nobody in their right mind attacks a claimed town-cop until the next day when they have nothing to show for their role. But the mafia wouldn't have nk targeted the person they roleblock, that's just a silly waste of abilities.

I mean, it just seems

really

rare.

Here are several thoughts:

A, is there a reason NJ's scummy hammer has totally sailed under the radar? pretty much no one has followed up on it from last night even though the twilight had everyone saying it was mega scummy?

B, just out of curiousity, what is the likelihood of another protective role existing in some shape or form? This is NOT a call for a claim, just throwing it out there? In a Normal, I certainly think its possible, I need to go look at some other normals to get an idea. The reason why I bring this up is since it seems to be agreed to lynch me today since I'll die tonight anyway. but if there's a reasonable chance of another protective role, then it seems to be a waste of a good cop.

BTW, if you guys do lynch me, when I turn up town, I'd advise our vig (assuming we have one) to kill ABR overnight, remove a likely lynch candidate and help the town the next day.

I checked several other Normals. Only found one protective role in pretty much all of them. Good luck to the town surviving without a Cop and protective roles if that's any indication .

First of all, in regards you your points:

A) Read my post about why I still remember NJ's scummy action but am not necessarily targeting him.
B) The thing is, it's a little hard to believe that you're a cop because of how your "report" came out.

And in response to your post 2276 (quoted above):

This (as well as your point B in post 2268 which I also replied to) just sounds like a big appeal to emotion. You're trying to

scare

us into sparing you, and it would be more effective for you to

convince

us of your innocence.

Can you please tell me, to the fullest extent of your ability without exactly quoting it, what the pm you got at the start of this day from ika telling you what your results turned up (or obviously didn't)? The wording is critical, but don't necessarily quote it. Did you get a "No Result" or did you get no pm or what? Help us help you, if you're really town with really shitty luck, help us understand that so we don't mislynch you, because I'm having a really hard time understanding your situation. Clear up the arguments, please.

P-Edit,
Also this:

vikingfan: If you want to avoid being lynched today, share your reads - not just on ABR.

This would help your case a lot.

P-P-Edit,

@ABR Ellie is town. I see what she is doing but for my green skin I won't say.

Shinobi is town. Ellie isn't pro-town.

Where does the Shinobi townread come from? I don't necessarily disagree with the Ellie read, though.

[Ozgin]

VOTE: cheetory

This is a good start if we're not going to stare down the "VF is mafia" tunnel all day.

I've also got a bone to pick with Kitz but I accept the fact that I could be biased in that regard. I don't know where her townread on me from earlier came from and it seems like her scumread is based on me not talking to other people, so I don't really know how that could affect her read. Hrm.

Pedit: Yeah, the whole Viking thing is lame and I accept the fact that he'll probably die today. I'm perfectly willing to move my vote there if it'll get people to shut up about it.

So this is kind of scummy to me because it sounds like he's saying, "Let's vote player x because I think a wagon on player y is stupid. But if it's popular, then yeah sure I'll vote player y." Aside from a comment about "apathetic dribble" on Cheetory's part 2 posts prior to making the quoted on above, he almost has no reason to target Cheetory. Then in a Pedit he claims that he'll vote vf even though he disagrees with the wagon, just because it's popular. I don't get it.

I also remember reading some weird position Shinobi took in his ISO about him "wanting to be remembered as being on the NJ wagon because I want to look suspicious."

I don't necessarily scumread Shinobi, but I also have no clue what angle he's working at and it's kinda bothersome. I'd say I lean scum on him, but not convicted enough to FoS him yet.

Pedit:

There was a mafia & werewolf setup only two large normals back. NY 178. So no, these are assumptions you are making because you want to call vikingfan scum, not facts.

He didn't say it wasn't possible, he just said it's less common. Be reasonable here, we don't need cloudy junk in everyone's head throwing off reads, which is what posts like this are.

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin: Actually there's something of a fad for multiball Large Normals recently, much like the sitewide fad for Neighbours that's pissed off DGB quite thoroughly.

That's good to know, actually. How do you learn about these site-wide metas like this? Like how do you know these sorts of things?

I'm curious. As a new player to the site, these sorts of things would help me know what's "probably the case" or "likely to be," at least in terms of mechanics.

[Ozgin]

He didn't say it wasn't possible, he just said it's less common. Be reasonable here, we don't need cloudy junk in everyone's head throwing off reads, which is what posts like this are.

Then there is no logic to ABR's post. "Less common but literally just happened" tells us nothing about how ika chose to design

his

game. Therefore it should not be used as an argument. (And you calling this "cloudy junk" and "throwing off reads" is off.)

That's fair, but the way you approached it made it sound like you were misinterpreting his point to make yours. But you do make a fair point, as I already said.

ABR: VF's alignment will be confirmed tomorrow. It is optimal to lynch him then. You know this. I know this. We have flipped scum and 2000 posts of interactions to work from. There is nothing stopping us from lynching some other scum today.

How will we learn VF's alignment tomorrow, exactly?

[Ozgin]

Setup design is not statistical.

The existence of a werewolf faction has as much to do with those twelve games as the result of a coin flip has to do with previous coin flips. Base setup spec on knowledge of ika, or stop speculating.

While events can be

independent

(what you described with the coin flips), in the world of probability

independence is actually vital to determining chance.

For any given independent event, there is still a probability of it happening.

So let's assume that there are wolves. If ABR is correct in saying the last 12 games did not have wolves, then the rate of wolves is 1/13. That makes P(Wolves) = 1/13 = 0.07692, roughly 7.69% of Normal games have a Wolf faction.

Converse

ly, there is a 12/13 chance that there is not a werewolf faction. P(Wolf^c) = 12/13 = .92307, or about 92.31% of the time. For any independent event, the probability of it happening n times is P(event)^n, so the probability of us

not

having wolves is P(Wolf^c)^13 (Since this will be the 13th game in the series of events) which is .34002, or ~34%.

But, here's the catch. It dawned on me that this happens only when events are random.

If ika did this setup 100% randomly, then my statistics are accurate. However, it is unlikely and unreasonable to assume randomness in a game that is created and operated at the leisure of a mod, therefore I must reject my probabilities based on reasons of bias.

In other words, arguing over the

chances

of this happening is pointless from a statistics standpoint. However, it is

completely valid

to say something to the degree of, "I find it hard to believe vf's story because it just seems so unlikely." It's okay to say that because, since the game was designed with a natural bias, everything is of opinion and vf cannot prove his case and nobody can disprove the case.

It's more the indirect manner in which you've chosen to deal with me up until this point that bugs me.
You're clearly aware that I've been scumreading you, so why go to the effort to call my case and play shit to other people but not say it directly to me or try to convince me that I'm wrong? I agree with you that I don't think people are considering you at all, which is why I'm trying to decide what I think of what's actually getting talked about right now rather than apparently just dumbly trying to push you and everyone ignoring it.

If you're so sure that ellie and VK are scum together, why aren't you voting ellie instead?

Because I think that VK is the better target at the moment and his flip will strengthen/weaken the ellie case considerable. I do not think that the revers is nessisarily true. I also have an issue with blindly refusing to lynch people no matter how scummy they might be because of a role claim.

Yesterday the argument was do not lynch VF because it is not a good idea to lynch a claimed cop. I agree with that for the first day - give it a chance to play out. Day two roles around and the argument is EXACTLY the same. Why is tomorrow going to be any different. How long do we play around with vf? We already have a good idea that even if his claim is completely honest - he is not going to be helping town anytime soon. I dont think ellie is the best lynch.

I am not against her wagon though. If the decision at the end of the day is between her and VF then I will not shed a tear but I am going to stick with VF until I am convinced that he is not the best wagon to pursue OR it is shown that he is simply not a valid lynch for this day.

So if we lynch VF we could potentially lynch the cop, but there's nothing actually saying he's the cop because he didn't have a result to turn over to us today.

The only thing to be had from voting for vf is the value of his flip, which will help strengthen or diminish a lot of scumreads (Ellie, ABR, maybe a little on Math, etc.). The questions is:

Are you okay with that? Are you okay with lynching a potential cop in exchange for information on a few (at least two) other players?

WHAT? MULTIPLE PEOPLE HAVE EXPLAINED THEIR REASONS FOR FINDING VIKING'S CLAIM POSSIBLE AND ABR INSISTS THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT ADDING ANYTHING NEW TO THE DISCUSSION?????

O M G

W O W

1) Nobody said it was impossible for vf to be lying, not even ABR. The issue is doubt. A lot of us (including myself) are very doubtful of vf's claim, and he hasn't responded to my (that I've noticed) question about what his response PM.

2) Your yelling and capsing and general flaily response isn't necessary.

3) Even if you think ABR is a prick, there's no reason to go off like a firecracker for it. Keep your cool and relax.

So, after having disappeared for a tiny while and return to read.

What The Fuck Did I Just Read?

It's like a bunch of kids bickering way to dawn for not being Player 1 in that nintendo game.

Multiple players have gone through the process of BSOD in their brains. Cool.

I also notice that I've been quite transparrent. Nothing in referrence to me or anything, even though I did a shotgun blast at the recent scumhunt.

I'm also mindfucked enough to write like this.

NJ's even more scummy for it's lack of contribution and lack of care about the blames.

Shin's scummier too.

ABR's just being weird at the moment spite being scummy. Yo dewd, you like to argue.

Morning's even more visible. ALL DAT CAPZ

Okay.

So.

Why all that bickering with the Setup, not about the actual setup, but the freaking Lottery Chance about it? When I hosted stuff on TvT, I just use RandomOrg or something and randomize roles, before balancing it. I assume the hosts do that here too, so Statistically I don't think that's a thing to argue about. Then again I have little clue about hosting setups in MF, but man, is that really that argue worthy about Chance? It's like the Blue Scratchcard has a higher chance to win than the Red Scratchcard...

My opinion about VK Lynch :
1. The only thing it confirms for us is that there's 3 killers in the setup.
2. Although it might reveal scum mates, everyone's crazy and weird here. Even normal town may be reluctant, so would it actually tell much at this point?
3. Food for thought. What if he's immune and used that as a bullshit excuse to get away?
4. Another food for thought. What if he's part of a 2nd team and the first one is against him?
5. Why are no one giving him a last chance? The RB is dead, and if he's Cop Scum would kill him anyway. A mislynch would just waste our time if 5 is the case.
6. Because of 5, I think there's better targets, who can actually give information by a lynch.

Have fun with your new conspiracy theories. 5 holds the greatest weight, and we can lynch him the next day anyway if he fails all.

Another thing : Why is it under the radar that ABR retracted his Tracker claim? He claimed Tracker out of the freaking blue because he didn't have time to deal with the BS he said, and then later he retract by saying that he read it's a different role PM.
If that's true, he have Sinned. Not discussing more of that Sinned thing, but let's see... He retracts? Are you really letting that go under the radar? You should take your time to read the Role PM, and if you're going to claim a role then you're going to make sure it's your role before you end up getting counterclaimed by an actual tracker and then lynched. This is extremely anti-town behavior, inconsiderate, and risked revealing even more PR.
Would an Experienced Player do this? From what I see, he's from 2007. That's more than enough time to avoid any of this.
VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

So you say NJ and Shin are "scummier" this day. Can I have more info on the Shin part? I get the NJ points. I do think his hammer was scummy but I believe I explained why I don't think he's scum.

As for your part about ABR, I do agree that it is really shitty to have lied about being a tracker (or perhaps been genuinely mistaken). The thing is, I don't think he's scum based on how sincerely he's pushing Ellie. Granted, this read is biased because I find Ellie to be mildly scummy (Or at least anti-town), but I don't feel like a scum would push genuinely on someone like Ellie.

I'm still struggling with the whole vf/Ellie debate in my head: Which one is scummier and warrants a vote? I'm leaning towards a vf lynch over an Ellie lynch because Ellie, while I've had some iffy reads on her, sort of exudes a kind of town-like frustration as a result of ABR's push on her and on vf. If we lynch vf, and he flips town, Ellie will be all but confirmed town in my mind. On the other hand, a scum vf flip would make me lean more scum on Ellie.

I think the vikingfan lynch is valuable for the read potential it has. I'm willing to go ahead and VOTE: vikingfan.

[Ozgin]

EBWOP:

The probability of an event happening n times

consecutively

is P(event)^n.*

[Ozgin]

Please.

Aside from his comment saying "100% vikingfan is lying," he's never really saying it's not possible he's wrong. He's really just speaking out of exaggeration to get his point across.

Any reasonable person would say that there's always a possibility they're wrong about a scumread or a townread.

I mean, I could be wrong about ABR - He could be a scum pushing on a town or a scum bussing a scum partner to gain rep or to distract us from our scumhunts. Who fucking knows? I don't. I just think it's reasonable to say that ABR is just playing with exaggeration and harsh sarcasm and such to make his point.

But what do you think makes Ellie town? Have we forgotten her whole, "I personally think vf is both town and cop, but yeah I'll lynch him if it means it makes me popular" argument?

I think the vikingfan lynch is valuable for the read potential it has. I'm willing to go ahead and VOTE: vikingfan.

You can pretend to know he is scum. The only downside of letting him live another day is if he's got a useful scum PR. Other than that we can just be like "hey look, scum has posted something, how cute" every time he posts. Come on it'll be fun.

Even if that did sound fun to me, it would be back because he might actually have a scum PR. And besides, if the object of the game is to lynch scum then why wouldn't we just lynch the person we were sure is scum?

[Ozgin]

(For the record, I don't scumread the phrase that everyone else scumreads because I've said shit like that as Town. I scumread the post that says "No.")

Goodness gracious. Can we stop taking ABR's version of this game as gospel?

Fair enough. And yeah, I remember that "No." post, too.

ABR, I actually don't like Ellie. I don't like her or him from day one at all. I am not susceptible to that kind of buddying and it makes me want to vote her. However, the town wincon is to lynch scums not people who try to be slick. SO patienceness.

Ozgin, ABR making up stuff is annoying as I said and led to town wastage. So therefore, I am holding his words as the words of a raver. Maybe there's an iota of sense but its hidden behind idk raverness.

What do you mean, "led to town wastage"? Can you elaborate on that a little more?

And do you think that raving is more common to zealous townies than really active mis-lynching scums? I would think that someone who raves ambitiously are more likely to be town than anyone, but I'm also a rookie and ABR probably knows that I'd buy into that, so who knows? I'm under-informed of a lot of meta, so I don't know that this is/isn't ABR's average level of zeal.

If vikingfan would just answer my question about his response pm at the start of this day/last night, I would be more inclined to lean Ellie and probably move my vote.

[Ozgin]

If vikingfan would just answer my question about his response pm at the start of this day/last night, I would be more inclined to lean Ellie and probably move my vote.

Erm, ignoring the part about me, why would that make you unvote VF? The case against him doesn't rest on that, and he could pretty easily BS something as scum anyway. Explain.

But that's the thing, if his PM really said nothing about his research, I don't think it would make sense for him to know about getting shot and healed but then not say "No Result." Plus, I also want to hear from him the truth about his position, all together in one post. I want him to make a case, all he's been doing in response to pressure is trying to throw attention to ABR.

[Ozgin]

Okay. It's just, do you have any strong reads? You're waffling all over the issue of which of me/VF is scum. If he answers one question from you, you will vote me. Since VF and I are both town, I'd prefer for you to actually commit one way or another.

Well, I've just decided to give VF one more night because I don't think it's fair that someone be lynched for poor circumstance. That being said, I still don't entirely buy into his claim, but read below and you'll hear more on that from me.

As for you, this makes you my strongest scumread, followed by a lean scumread on NJ. I'm going to ISO you and NJ and try to figure it all out. What is your read of NJ?

---------------------------------------------------

Ozgin, what exactly do you need? I already reported I am a Cop with the ability to investigate one player per night and will find out if they are protown or not. If something happens where I don't get a result, then the result is unknown. I also received a PM last night informing me my investigation on Shinobi came back as unknown and that I was attacked last night but was saved. Given that pisskop was a mafia RB, it's not a huge jump that he blocked me from my investigation. I have no idea what else you need.

Okay, are you going to be able to use your ability again tonight? If so, now that the mafia roleblock is dead, assuming you survive and don't get roleblocked, please please please for the love of god get a report back to us D3. Then I'll have no doubts about you, and shit, I'd write you a formal apology.

But until then, I'm okay with not voting for you and going with this elusive quote:

If VF doesn't die N2 then the VF issue should be revisited.

---------------------------------------------------

No, it's not WIFOM, it's a deliberate attempt to point out that

there are no Scum motivations

for pointing out that she saw the Doc crumb.

Could it have been a Freudian slip? Imagine this: At night, a player is reading the thread looking for who to nk. That player finds some profoundly awesome piece of evidence that somehow slipped under everyone's radar. The next day, when the person who was nk'd was revealed to be something awesome (like Boon's doctor PR), everyone is kinda getting ready to move on, but the player who found the evidence gets a little egotistical. They want people to realize how cool they are for discovering this awesome, barely noticeable piece of evidence, so they make the error of pointing it out. It's as if they were to say, "Man that NK was a great job on the scum team, they must be pretty damn smart! I bet they're awesome players!" And then just sits there and smiles as they stroke their own ego.

I don't actually think that's the case, but I thought it interesting enough to bring up.

---------------------------------------------------

Sorry it took me another day and a half or however long it's been to post, RL is hard. I'm back for the weekend though, at least until tonight.

[Ozgin]

Since I'm looking at everything ABR says about VF with a shaker of salt, why doesn't someone less "boy who cried wolf" explain what the mechanics argument is in like 2-3 sentences maximum? He's definitely not on a faction with pisskop so therefore that must mean that VF, if he isn't the cop which I still assume he is based on just the level of derpage, would mean you think there are two scum factions. I'm almost even okay with an ABR lynch over the other two.

This is not her scum game and I suggest you get off this fucking wagon before I stop being such a sweet little cupcake.

If you mean the mechanics argument by the weird argument against vf about his role and his report from last night:

VF got roleblocked in some form (probably by pisskop), so this morning when asked what his cop results were, he said he didn't get any results at all and he also included that he was told that he was shot and saved by the good doctor Boon. People are doubtful because it is rare that a doctor's healing gets reported to the player who was healed (apparently, that's what ABR and some others say here), and also because usually when roleblocked a report comes back "No Result" (again, just what the argument says). If what VF is saying is true it also points to there being more than 1 anti-town faction or player, which some people are also doubtful of the likelihood of.

That's about as summed up as I can make it, but even more tl;dr: everyone thinks it's possible that vf is telling the truth but some people doubt it more than others, and there's no way to know whether or not he is because ika is the mod and can do whatever he wants with things like pms and setup and stuff.

Also, you've been defending Ellie for a while this game, and Ellie defending you. Why is that?

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: Ellie's ISO Posts that stand out to me

Boonskies, elusive is town. Mislynch someone else.

This is really strong of a stance to take and really came out of nowhere. This leads me to believe you're a Mason with elusive or a Lover or something. Also, the whole little conversation here with dragon and boon between this quote and 1167 just makes it seem like you're pulling this out of your ass, Ellie.

elusive will not be lynched while I am alive. Take that as you will. I might consider dragonspawn, though

Again, Mason or Lover? Why are you so adamant on defending elusive? It's baffling.

Elusive is very unlikely to be lynched

after

my flip either.

This would indicate some kind of PR that I must not know about, because I don't know what would stop elusive from dying if you died? What does this mean?

We're not masons. Elusive, you are too clever for your own good.

This sounds like elusive almost slipped or started to say the wrong things, and Ellie was trying to nudge her into not saying something stupid to blow their cover (or Ellie's bluff..?)

I never claimed mason. I said a missing puzzle piece could explain my posts, and that I doubt elusive would be lynched. Both statements are 100% true. Hardly my fault you guys misinterpreted.

You've been so mysterious it's almost impossible to not misinterpret. Either you're crumbing something and trying to keep that something under wraps, or you're bluffing, but either way it actually is your fault that you're being misinterpreted because you're being purposely ambiguous.

I think vikingfan is a town cop and telling the truth, but I am okay with his death and will probably hammer him if he reaches L-1.

This is the scummiest thing I've seen from Ellie, and was the base of my scumread on her in the recent few pages. I almost let this slip out of mind when Ellie started defending vf from ABR, but just look at what this is saying: "I believe that vikingfan is both town and cop, which can only be beneficial to the town. However, I'm perfectly okay with him dying, and in fact would seal the tomb myself if I got the chance." You know who else would know for sure that vikingfan is a town and would both be perfectly okay with him dying and would seal his fate themselves given the chance? Scum. Scum would do that.

No

This blatant refusal to explain her above quote just furthers my scumread on her, especially when a quote is si anti-town that it warrants an immediate explaination.

VOTE: Ellie

Ellie, please explain yourself here. What's up with you and elusive? What was that quote about killing viking about? We need answers here.

[Ozgin]

Good God.

2500 posts.

I don't know where a good foothold to get back into the game would be.

Just read Twilight of Day 1 and Day 2 and anything that talks about the mechanics of roles or pms or the game setup, for the love of the gods just ignore it.

Ozgin,

Spoiler:

Ellie and I know each other from another site. I wrote a fan fiction about her and some other people (yay MathBlade was in a fanfic too). Ellie is not the first or last person to hard defend me since I have a very clear town meta. Heck someone I only played one game with here did it too. Maybe one day you will too.

Also based on just my record I have never been lynched as town, except in one game where it was bastard and there were more 3rd parties and scum living then town. So scum have to NK me because as town I'm kind of relentless.

But that shouldn't matter that you wrote a fanfic about them, what matters is how you play. And to boldly assert that you're a town (on Ellie's part) without any foundation or reasoning in this game is scummy. And even if she knows your meta well enough to say that you're town,

what does that have to do with the town's ability to lynch you?

She's making it out seem like it's impossible for you to get lynched, and even if she gets lynched it'll be impossible for you to get lynched, almost implying a PR or something.

Her weird hyper-defensive relationship with you is just that. Weird and hyper-defensive. I just want some reasoning as to why you're any more town than someone else, and why she can be so adamant about it? Why can't she provide evidence for her assertion?

And then there's the stuff about vf, I just can't get my focus off her right now.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin,
Well, I already soft claimed in thread so why not look for it. She knows how I soft claim and its there for those who have the vision to see. I was hoping not to call attention to it since {} but go ahead, find it. Maybe someone will find it and put it in ALL CAPS in thread too just in case scum missed it but I doubt it since they got Boon.

If you really think that the scum is so good at reading softclaims, why don't you just come clean so we know that you're on our side? Or at least point me in some direction? I mean, I really don't get your point here. And what is {}?

@elusive if you call me maniac one more time I'll go apeshit on your ass.

[Ozgin]

Well, I've just decided to give VF one more night because I don't think it's fair that someone be lynched for poor circumstance.

You're one of them TouchyFeely LIBERALS who thinks everyone should get a trophy just for showing up, aren't you?

Yes, actually I kind of am. Bite me.

both town and cop, which can only be beneficial to the town.

Now I feel jaded.

That's a really optimistic view at best.

What's "really optimistic" about it?

In my opinion, every member of town is inherently valuable to the town in terms of staying alive. After all, the town wins when the town survives.
The cop makes a town even more useful, because the cop can give us reports on players, creating conftowns and confscums. If the cop can live past D3, a lot of potentially great information can come out it.

Like I said, there is nothing bad about having a living town cop. If you can tell me what's bad about that, then I'll be floored.

Even if vikingfan isn't great at reading people or pressuring people or voting on the right wagon, as long as he stays alive and gives us his reports on players, he can be extremely helpful to us.

Ozgin, why don't you do some work and spell it out for the entire thread. I'm sure you know how to ISO. And in that movie I thought, "Why isn't Jason Bateman in more movies and stuff because he's like so charming?" Otherwise it was a sucky movie.

I'm trying to, but I'm a little dull sometimes. Give me time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My quotes might be off kilter because formatting is hard, but I think that's accurate.

[Ozgin]

Then give us a good report tomorrow. I would suggest elusive because I wanna know what for sure this softclaim was, so I don't have to play the guessing game with her ISO and we can all get some information.

Even if vikingfan isn't great at reading people or pressuring people or voting on the right wagon, as long as he stays alive and gives us his reports on players, he can be extremely helpful to us.

This sounds like you want to keep him beyond D3 when he inevitably falls short of being NK'd. Are you also going to believe him when he declares a guilty on town tomorrow? This is why I want vikingfan voted out. The fact that he can't get it through his head that I'm suspecting him, with completely reasonable justifications, is also a terrible point against him. He would be a lot more humble and understanding as town who was placed in a bad spot by circumstances, instead he is OMGUSing me, makes very hollow contributions to the game, let me tell you, I don't like it.

Let us remember that vf could be a mafia role cop, a mafia watcher, he could have abilities that are making his buddies struggling to keep him alive day after day so they can maximize their gain from him.

This is... actually a fair point.

But I still think we can get more valuable information from him for letting him live another day than if we kill him. If we lynch Ellie, see her flip, and hear what vf has to say tomorrow regarding his results, if he survives the night. But this definitely opened my eyes a little.

Now I'm just waiting for a response from Ellie to see where I stand.

P-Edit:

He could be a mafia encryptor, who allows the scum to daytalk while he's alive, and that makes him invaluable to them. I would much rather lynch vikingfan today than Ellie or anyone else.

I think this is a bit of a stretch, though. I mean, you can say this about anyone.

"Ellie could be a mafia encryptor, who allows the scum to daytalk while she's alive, and that makes her invaluable to them. I would much rather lynch Ellie today than vikingfan or anyone else."

See?

[Ozgin]

Could it have been a Freudian slip? Imagine this: At night, a player is reading the thread looking for who to nk. That player finds some profoundly awesome piece of evidence that somehow slipped under everyone's radar. The next day, when the person who was nk'd was revealed to be something awesome (like Boon's doctor PR), everyone is kinda getting ready to move on, but the player who found the evidence gets a little egotistical. They want people to realize how cool they are for discovering this awesome, barely noticeable piece of evidence, so they make the error of pointing it out. It's as if they were to say, "Man that NK was a great job on the scum team, they must be pretty damn smart! I bet they're awesome players!" And then just sits there and smiles as they stroke their own ego.

I don't actually think that's the case, but I thought it interesting enough to bring up.

So this isn't something you actually believe?

No, I brought it up because it really interests me. Elusive doesn't strike me as egotistical.

NakedJogger, if you are town and hammered for town reasons, simply explain your thought process so we can see how town it was. It's simple.

I second this.

ABR's conviction with the vf case and his offering himself as a quick next-day lynch doesn't seem like something a scum would say. I just struggle to think ABR is scum when he does things like this.

I'm willing to wagon vf if it's a serious push, but I'm a little more convinced that Ellie is scum.

As for you, this makes you my strongest scumread, followed by a lean scumread on NJ. I'm going to ISO you and NJ and try to figure it all out. What is your read of NJ?

Asked to post reads to help people townread him, quickhammers instead. That was scummier than the quickhammer itself. I don't think he's on pisskop's team though.

So you just think he's general anti-town? And what about my post where I asked you questions from things I saw in your ISO? Why won't you address them?

[Ozgin]

I think this is a bit of a stretch, though. I mean, you can say this about anyone.

I'm saying this because there's a high chance he's scum, and people want to keep him alive without understanding the potential importance and urgency of lynching scum.

See that's where you lost me, I think Ellie has a higher chance of being scum,

Ozgin, are you asking me to full claim? Is anyone else interested in a full claim? Most likely I will before day ends.

It would certainly help your case in my opinion, and could potentially help Ellie's as well.

[Ozgin]

No, I brought it up because it really interests me.

Why does it interest you?

I just struggle to think ABR is scum when he does things like this.

I think people probably can't fake that level of crazy.

So you just think he's general anti-town? And what about my post where I asked you questions from things I saw in your ISO? Why won't you address them?

No, hence my use of the word scummy. I'm still catching up - did you ask me about something other than my read on elusive and my statement that I would hammer vikingfan?

1) The concept of a Freudian slip that isn't just a linguistics error. I'm just utterly fascinated by people who accidentally show their true intentions without even realizing it. Not saying that's what she did, but recognizing the possibility is just interesting to me personally. However, Kitz pretty much debunked my Freudian slip theory.

2) But is it really crazy to be so sure of something that you'd bet your life on it? Granted, it's not your

real

life, but there are some things I'd be willing to bet my life on (e.g. I bet my life that I can go outside and take a picture of a handful of snow and post it because winter sucks on the east coast).

3) No, that's the gist of what I asked you. There was a weird conversation you had somewhere too that I think I asked about, but it was all related to your interactions with elusive and your (potential) mason/lover softclaim.

[Ozgin]

Okay, I was hoping for some more creative reasons for suspecting me Ozgin. As stated many times already, I know elusive

very

well. She is town. If you think my read on her is too confident for d1 or d2, then you don't understand how her mind works. This is simply not how she plays as scum.

Fair enough, I can't necessarily argue with you if you claim you know her meta very well and she has confirmed that. But what about your posts saying things like "It's impossible to lynch her" etc., you almost hinted at her being invincible. Why is that?

[Ozgin]

2) But is it really crazy to be so sure of something that you'd bet your life on it? Granted, it's not your real life, but there are some things I'd be willing to bet my life on (e.g. I bet my life that I can go outside and take a picture of a handful of snow and post it because winter sucks on the east coast).

Do you have any beliefs about this game that you would bet your game life on? I was talking about some other behavior from ABR that appears to stretch the boundaries of sanity.

Not necessarily, no. I can say with 80% confidence or so that there is one scum amongst a small list of players {ABR, Ellie, NJ, vf}. I have half a mind to include NobodySpecial in that list for what I think is lurking, but lack of content to me reads more null than scum because I empathize with people who are busy and have RL distractions.

PEdit:

The concept of a Freudian slip that isn't just a linguistics error. I'm just utterly fascinated by people who accidentally show their true intentions without even realizing it. Not saying that's what she did, but recognizing the possibility is just interesting to me personally. However, Kitz pretty much debunked my Freudian slip theory.

That was me not elusive.

Really? Man I should l2read. I apologize. Even so, I still don't think you're egotistical enough to do something like that either. You two are just slowly amalgamating in my mind, and I need to separate you lol.

[Ozgin]

I don't see a good reason to lead a lynch simply because someone had a bad read - EVERYONE has bad reads. You lynch because they are anti-town. If you think he is anti-town then his answer is rather meaningless.

I found this to be one of the most useful posts in the 30 pages that came out of nowhere while I was

literally just eating dinner.

ABR's commitment to his read is really strong, emotional, and opinionated. If his cop claim is true then it's a guarantee'd scum lynch of vf. If he's lying, he's probably only lying to force a lynch on the person who he genuinely feels is scum.

Lying is bad though, ABR, so tell the truth - Are you really a cop or do you just really want vf dead?

Viking also barely cares about the game and is just going through the motions.

I feel like this speaks to it all. The fact that ABR actually (or it seems that he) cares, and vikingfan is kinda just letting his defenders do the work for him. And since vf was my second scumread behind Ellie (who very obviously is not today's lynch by what seems to be unanimous decision), I'm just going to UNVOTE: and VOTE: vikingfan.

And if ABR has completely pulled the wool over my eyes, I'm going to come after him with tenfold the fiery ambition that he's going after vikingfan now.

Now please everyone, stop shitposting and let's get our heads in this fucking game.

[Ozgin]

Once again my particles say, "Kill Ozgin quick"

Because I disagree with you, or because I changed my mind?

[Ozgin]

I'm the town Deputy. Basically a backup cop. If the cop dies, I become the new cop. According to ika, this does not mean there has to be a cop, but I think it definitely suggests that it would be really dumb to lynch VF today.

My post about hammering VF was tongue-in-cheek, and also a crumb: From a certain POV, it would have been better for town if I got the cop role early. So his lynch would not have been horrible. It was nevertheless

better

to lynch scum, so I've spent my time trying to make that happen.

If this is the truth, then my doubts about you have been cleared up because it debunks my scumcase against you. Why is scum ABR/cop ABR a false dichotomy? It

is

still technically possible that he's the cop, unless you were told as the deputy who the cop was.

Also, if vf is lynched today, does that mean you get to use your cop ability tonight?

[Ozgin]

It's ... not really possible ABR is a cop, because he's not even really

pretending

to be a cop.

Fair, but it's also fairly possible that vf

isn't

the cop and he bullshitted out a story.

I still think ABR's passion says it all, I've played a very small number of games on this site (which are still ongoing so I cannot talk about them really) but what I have seen of ABR is passionate and ravenous scumhunting.

And even if we don't lynch vf, the ABR lynch will probably happen in it's place. It won't really be "letting the scum decide who the cop is," because one of them is going to flip today.

P-Edit:

I am the cop. Why the hell did you claim? How many times did I tell you to shut up and vote vf? You're hopeless.

Now he

is

(at least) pretending to be the cop.

But I second this:

You're not the cop. If you are gambiting town, my role is evidence that VF is town and you should adjust accordingly.

How does it prove which one of ABR or VF is telling the truth?

P-Pedit:

Holy fucking posting.

P-P-Pedit:

You're an orange. I am the cop, not vf, you're entire claim is useless and your entire play this day is antitown.

Repeating something over and over does not make it true.

And your lackluster fight for your life doesn't help your image as the alleged cop.

[Ozgin]

That was... strange.

God damnit ika now I'm so friggin' curious.

[Ozgin]

ABR is scum.

Wow, I'm so convinced. You meant that so much. Wow. That was so emotional and deep and connected. That totally sounds like a town on the brink of lynch.

Ellie, even if you're 100% convinced of ABR being scum, what are your thoughts on vf's lazy, half-assed defending of himself? He's basically letting you fight for him. Don't you think his lack of conviction is a little strange? ABR is basically claiming to be exactly what vf says his slot is, and he's barely even putting up his dukes. Is that not odd?

P-Edit

For the love of all that is good and holy, lynch ABR, the lying scum.

Did it hurt when you forced that one out?

[Ozgin]

Okay, I'll stop defending vikingfan. With a counterclaim on the table, it makes sense to lynch him or ABR today, and it doesn't really matter

that

much which we choose.

Just vote vf then, we can figure it all out in the morning. Your vote would put vf at L-1.

[Ozgin]

My Read List

(I will go back and ISO a few people again but here is where I am right now)

Spoiler:

Playerlist:
acryon* Mathblade - Acryon gave off town vibes, also I just liked him in general I hope he comes back. I've never played with a scum MB so I don't know that meta and her 3p meta was similar to town so lean town\unsure.
Kitz - Town. Just the mindset and questioning seems town.
joker443 Naked jogger - Lean scum. Was against the VF wagon which is interesting so that is my hesitation. Pisskop defending him and got on my case for defending him so soft connection there. *Jerk but that's not alignment related.
TheFireRises Shinobi - Need to ISO. Was mentioned by both VF and ABR and ABR tried to town firm him based on a lie and therefore that makes the slot in need of pressure. If ABR flips scum then we have strong leads.
croboss Nobody special - Accidentally slipped my role so lean town because scum wouldn't need to slip in thread.

GGG Pisskop

- Scum
dragonspawn - Generally people seem to excuse his seemingly bad or scummy play. Probably needs to be lynched for it so it gets its act together at some point but right now null.

Klingoncelt

SilverWolf - Isn't talking or doing as many reads as people discussing her meta have mentioned

elusive

- Tweet, tweet, tweet
Grib*Goodmorning - The replace confuzzled me. I am unsure on GM having read her wrong before. She can be diabolical as scum and as town seems more "lazy"
Wake88 - Wanted to trust\sheep this player early on. Not feeling it anymore.
Aeronaut - Has been under the radar so far.
House - Can't say why I think he's town although I feel lean town.
Ozgin - Scummy as fuck. Kept a vote on the KC wagon after I told it to take votes off wagons you aren't sure of and then the VF vote. I want it dead and in the grave.
T S O - Unsure, I thought lean town
Cheetory6 - Unsure, it was active lurking till prodded and needs to be more active.

Jared615 Ellie

- *Shimmers*

Boonskiies*

Doctor, had good instincts.
julianmolina13 ABR - The worstest. If we had a vig, do it now plz.
FA_Q2 - Lean scum due to it soft defending NJ or pisskop (need to reISO)

vikingfan

- Cop, killed for the stupidest reasons.

Cheetory6, I'm fine with an ABR death today but not until everyone posts in thread and we get some real content. I do not want to rush it.

Can you remind me where your vote was yesterday? Also, if its Normal then do you agree that everyone who thought or actively argued VF couldn't be the cop because of his doc heal claim is on something that is probably not Truthiness?

SilverWolf, move the game forward or I don't care what you think, feel, etc. ISO Ellie and tell me what you see.

>Votes KC because both wagons sucked but deadline was approaching and no-lynches would have just been disgustingly unfruitful.
>Votes VF because claim was shotty at best and I trusted ABR's play over yours
>iguessimscumnowlol.jpg

But seriously, I voted kc for the sake of progress and I voted vf because I genuinely believed ABR over him. So I was wrong once, and did what I thought best for the town before that. And that makes me "scummy as fuck"? Yeah, that makes

perfect sense.

--

ABR is at L-2.

I know I swore I would bring down the flaming gavel of injustice on ABR's head if viking flipped town. Don't get me wrong, I'm really pissed. But after reading the last few pages, and looking back to my own mistakes with the vf wagon, I really think ABR

might

be right in that we are rushing into things, but that could also be the urgent bargaining of a soon-to-be dead man.

So my issue with this game thus far has been the speed at which it develops -- Everyone is posting at the speed of god damn light and just throwing themselves at each other, leading charges against the whole fuckin' world when they can. These spontaneous wagons are doing us a lot worse than they're good for.

Even so, I'm still really angry at myself for trusting ABR over vf, but admittedly vf's claim fucking sucked. I'm not opposed to a hammer on ABR, but I think we need to look at the bigger picture in this game for a minute here. What if ABR was genuinely convinced vf was scum and, this may be shocking to some that it's even possible,

was wrong?

I know I know, it's hard to imagine yourself making a mistake, let alone others, but us humans are rather strange and tend to make such errors.

That being said,

if ABR ever goes L-1 I'm going to reserve the intent to hammer, because I will never forget what has happened with vf, now or in the future.

I don't even know if I can do that at L-2, but I'm doing it.

I will definitely look at the posts of everyone in the game and do the spoiler read list thingy that elusive is demanding, but life is a tad hectic. I just got a job, I start work tomorrow and my dog was dead by the time I came home today. But I promise you guys I'll get my head back into this game, I'm caught up as of right now, but I'll go back and do fuller reads of players and my current list of people sometime soon. For now, I have a few projects to work on for school, so I'm off for a little bit. I'll be back later in the evening.

[Ozgin]

wtt math. How about explaining exactly what you mean with your statements?

UNVOTE

Math seems to be trolling.

If Jesters were normal, I'd say she is that.

[Ozgin]

VOTE: MathBlade

For now, my vote is going to rest on MB because she's literally useless to the town AND extremely detrimental to our progress. She's part of the reason why this ABR wagon is just kinda happening, no real push on it and no real charge being lead against him. I don't think we should lynch ABR right now because I just don't know that he's scum, even though I sorta trusted him on the vf mislynch. Elusive was right when she told me not to just vote someone to get a kill, but elusive,

a no lynch is bad for us. We need to lynch more scum.

Furthermore, has anyone considered the possibility that ABR was just wrong? He genuinely believed vf was lying because of his past experience playing mafia?

I just think MathBlade is being a bigger dickhead than ABR and is literally ruining this game at this point. And then she complains when nobody takes her seriously when she plays.

I still am perfectly willing to hammer you, ABR, if you go L-1. I still haven't forgiven you, nor have I forgotten. This is kinda like an intent to hammer, only I'd rather kill the troll than the person I hate. That is, until I find another reason to think you're scum.

Besides, I bet elusive is gonna shoot ABR tonight anyway, because she's obviously crumbing vig.

P-Edit:

Why the Wake vote, elusive? O_o

[Ozgin]

Wake-do you have any reads on any of the players in this game right now?

I've not had enough time and energy to read enough to develop reads.

If I post reads on people based on a handful of posts I've read in the last few pages people will

bitch

.

I'm f****** busy, and struggling to find the wherewithal to play. It's aggravating. It's 9pm here and I feel like I've been beaten up by a 500lb gorilla.

Okay okay, easy there, bud.

This isn't the game to play when you're angry or upset, or out of your mind. It's obviously affecting your reads and your posts.

Go to bed. I know how RL can get. I'm a full time student who just started working, among other RL responsibilities/obstacles. I'm not being a dick when I say you need to go to bed; I'm saying it because you sound like you need rest to prevent yourself from getting in an even worse mood.

And if elusive was my "scum partner," she wouldn't have said she reads me as "extremely scummy" for the stupidest reasons I've ever fucking read.

If you have to, go on V/LA for a few days, we'll understand. You're just too strung out to post with a level head.

P-edit:
@Math - Your raving like a madwoman isn't going to derail much of anything but some nerves. Try building a wagon against someone who should be wagon'd against, for better reasons than just having made a terrible mistake.

[Ozgin]

OK

VOTE: Marquis

Silver, this was a strange flip-flop. Why did you switch from NS to Marquis, seemingly after it was just lightly suggested to you?

I wanna hear more on the FA_Q12 case, because in all honesty, I completely forgot about them as a player. Granted, I replaced in at Day 2, but still, if I had to list off the players of this thread from memory, I can guarantee you that I would not put him on the list because I haven't noticed much of the play at all.

I'm gonna ISO him real quick, give me a minute.

And sorry about my terrible terrible inactivity, school is a bitch, and so is my family, and a lot of things, so on and so forth.

On a non-personal-rant note, I don't think Wake's replacement is that scummy. I was honestly considering the same thing because of how bad our townplay has been (as a unit), but the reason I didn't was because I know that if I want us to do better as town, I have to play better. That simple.

So I'm gonna try to shape-up, and that's gonna start with a scumcase on someone (that hopefully isn't shit).

[Ozgin]

OK

VOTE: Marquis

Silver, this was a strange flip-flop. Why did you switch from NS to Marquis, seemingly after it was just lightly suggested to you?

3889

Start there.

Spoiler: What I don't get is:

How do you go from this level of conviction:

I completely disagree that Wake's replace out is town. Seriously, he was scummy as fuck before that and he could of just decided he needed to replace and did it in such a way so people would think it's townish.

I am not letting him off the hook when he's been obvscum the whole game and it looks like I'm going to have to case this latter when I have time.

Wake is scum. Marquis has done nothing to make me change my mind on that spot either.

To this level of, "Yeah sure, whatever.":

OK

VOTE: Nobody Special

Very under the radar and nitpicky about things that don't matter.

Be productive or be hanged<----------------------totally stole that line from House.

And then back to this, but this time almost naked:

OK

VOTE: Marquis

Over a span of 32 posts?

[Ozgin]

Holding the intent to hammer, just in case Kitz isn't really sure about it.

I'm waiting for FA_Q to get a chance to really speak. I really don't like the "Whatever, blegh" attitude he has those (like in posts 4000 and 4014), I also don't get the contradiction here either, where he defends Wake by saying (basically) "What scum would replace out of a winning game?" followed by "Yeah, I think Wake is scummy..." It just doesn't add up.

This sounds like fake sympathy to me.

My least-favorite FA_Q post is probably this one, where he puts ABR at L-1 because (I am paraphrasing his attitude at that point) "Fuck it! Town lost anyways, who gives a fuck, right?! Thbbrrrrrrttttttt".

All in all, I don't really like FA_Q's posts because they're either null or grossly apathetic to the town situation.

[Ozgin]

Wait until tomorrow Ozgin because he's on late and won't get a chance to speak until later. I can do it as well so no hurry.

Well of course, but I want FA_Q to really understand the consequences he's facing, and if he responds with the same level of apathy that he seems to be playing with, I will bring it down on him.

i have no more feelings until i get another flip which will hopefully be my faq2 flip which will in turn hopefully be a scumflip that supertownifies me.

And what if you're wrong (and so are the rest of us who think of FA_Q negatively)?

[Ozgin]

Holding the intent to hammer, just in case Kitz isn't really sure about it.

I'm waiting for FA_Q to get a chance to really speak. I really don't like the "Whatever, blegh" attitude he has those (like in posts 4000 and 4014), I also don't get the contradiction here either, where he defends Wake by saying (basically) "What scum would replace out of a winning game?" followed by "Yeah, I think Wake is scummy..." It just doesn't add up.

This sounds like fake sympathy to me.

My least-favorite FA_Q post is probably this one, where he puts ABR at L-1 because (I am paraphrasing his attitude at that point) "Fuck it! Town lost anyways, who gives a fuck, right?! Thbbrrrrrrttttttt".

All in all, I don't really like FA_Q's posts because they're either null or grossly apathetic to the town situation.

Your 'least favorite' post is an abject lie. I didn't put him at L1 because of 'fuck it.' I put him there because he was single highhandedly destroying the game. IF ABR survived then he would have done absolutely nothing at all but distract the ENTIRE town from scum hunting and eliminating any and all ability to move forward. I gave my reasons and here you are taking shit out of context and lying about it.

You all are looking for scum ^ here is more of it.

1) You said he

destroyed

the game. You said town was fucked, not "going to be fucked" and not "getting destroyed," but "fucked" and "destroyed." Your tone was clearly that of defeat AND apathy.

2) It's really fucking cute that you bold one line of my short analysis on you that I made while reading your ISO and contemplating the idea of you being scum, and gave no fucks about the other posts I pointed to. Furthermore, I did not lie nor did I take things out of context -- I interpreted YOUR shitty post. If my analysis was SHITTY to you, then you can only imagine how SHITTY your post sounded to me.

I really want to hammer you, but I'm tired of town running into lynches with guns blazed at the hips and taking town other townies. In light of your recent reactions (arguably the most frustrated posts I've ever read), I'm almost inclined to believe you're town. But answer me this:

I agree with the replacement issue just like you but I am trying not to let that cloud the actual ACTIONS taken by the slot itself.

Do you

honestly

believe that Wake would be on the winning team, and replace out just to take the heat off of his slot in an attempt to help his already winning team?

On another pseudo-related note:

Tempted to agree with DS. FA should still follow up on that Aeronaut thing though.

Did Ozgin ever have a scumread on FA beforehand?

No, I did not. I actually forgot FA_Q was a player, because (in all honesty) I've been almost completely inactive until this point of D4, and most of the end of D3. I only even looked into FA_Q at the prompt of SilverWolf who asked my thoughts on him. But even so, I wasn't really (and still am not) on the scale of "ERMAHGERD HE'S A SCUMBAG," all I said was I didn't like his posts because of their apathetic (and now in hindsight, defeated) tone.

P-EDIT:

Tempted to agree with DS. FA should still follow up on that Aeronaut thing though.

Did Ozgin ever have a scumread on FA beforehand?

No, he said FA made a very useful post, only coming up with a scumread when he got to L-1.

How convenient.

Read above.

[Ozgin]

Like half the game is apathetic. I'm apathetic. I could lynch like half the game and not even care because this game is kind of ass and ABR did something he really shouldn't have.

Why FA over literally any other player in the game that doesn't care? You know, aside from the fact that he's at L-1.

It's funny that you mention your own apathy, because next to FA_Q, you were the other person whose posts I didn't like for the same reason.

Furthermore, for the second time now, I was not strongly scumreading FA_Q by any standards. Period. All I said was that I didn't like his posts, I presented my reasons for not liking his posts, and I prompted him to respond. If I really scumread him, I would have hammered him. Threatening to hammer him, though, is a pretty damn good way to put pressure on even the most apathetic of players. And I got just as good of a response from him as I could have asked for.

Now his wagon is dying down a little, and I think it's obvious why: He reacted in a townie manner to the pressure put on him. And I didn't even have to push the pressure on him, everyone else seemed to have done it, all I did was threaten him with the hammer and he lashed out like the frustrated town that he might be.

And just because apathy is popular, doesn't make it good for the town.

[Ozgin]

No, but it does mean you don't really have much of a case to begin with when apathy is prevalent which just means it's really convenient.

Right, so the general consensus/popularity of playing apathetically as town (which, hey look at that, hasn't been working), somehow nullifies my argument that apathy is bad?

I mean, hey, owning slaves was pretty popular back in the old days, so it must have meant that slavery was acceptable and should never have been stood up against.

[Ozgin]

Except that wasn't the point I was making.

Why FA_Q over any other apathetic player in the game, aside from the fact that he is at L-1?

Because I was asked/prompted, very specifically, for my personal thoughts on FA_Q. I wasn't asked for my reads or thoughts on the current standing players, I was asked for my thoughts on FA_Q.

How does someone even liken slavery to town apathy?

It's a simple matter of using an extreme to test your logic. I'm not saying they're as bad, that's obviously not the point: The point is that

just because something is popular, doesn't mean it is justified.

[Ozgin]

I'm probably just going to cut off this conversation right here because Ozgin is annoying me.

He's probably town though, fwiw.

I promise I'm not trying to be annoying or disruptive, I just feel like our thought processes led us to butt heads.

But I can agree to call the conversation here and discuss more important things.

Stepping away from FA_Q for a minute here (considering his wagon is slowing down and his reaction read town to me), What players are really far UTR right now, and does anybody else think they should be pressured? I personally want to hear from Kitz, who only lightly weighed in on FA_Q once and has been generally disinterested in this game.

I even ISO'd Kitz and looked a little, and Kitz, if you really feel so 'meh-ish', why not replace out, or just try to move past the bullshit that had been stinking up the last few days and try to reap some good information like the rest of us?

[Ozgin]

Like I may be wordy, unconvincing or wrong about details, but my gut is fucking roaring and it wants TSO blood and I won't fucking settle for less at this point.
So if you're prepared to find a wagon that won't exist on either myself or TSO then SHIT THAT SUCKS.
I'm not going to be a part of it anymore.

"So I may spout extensive lines of bullshit that doesn't fool anyone, but I really wanna rush into another lynch without evidence because the town isn't doing bad enough. I don't even care if I die trying, I want TSO dead because I wanna follow my heart!"

So if you

are

town, what's the point of putting your life on the line to try lynching someone without evidence?

Either you're an overly-confident and emotional town player who's falling ill with ABR Syndrome, a scum who just wants to push another fruitless mislynch, or a 3rd Party (SK) trying to cause chaos by pushing another fruitless mislynch.

What the

hell

are you?
VOTE: Cheetory

[Ozgin]

21 players, 6 dead all town + 1 dead scum. About 3-5 scum and what about 3p?

That leaves 14 players alive?
Considering ratios, that means we have 1-2 mislynches at most before town and scum are about equal in number?

If we assume the worst (4 scum alive and 1 Third Party), and we assume 2 town die every night where we have a mislynch, and we have 14 left alive:

14
-2(1st Mislynch)
---
12
-2(2nd Mislynch)
---
10
-2(3rd)
---
8
-2(4th)
---
6 <--- Close enough to 5, but if there are only 4 scum total and one is dead with a 3rd party..
-2(5th)
--
4<--- Here is where we'd be fucked.


In other words, we actually have up to 4 or 5 if only 2 town die each night. But that's unrealistic, because it's more like 3 people die each night, but the 3rd Party doesn't know who the scum are, nor the town, so then..

4 scum alive / 14 players alive
1 3rd Party alive / 14 players alive
9 townies alive / 14 players alive

Assume the chance of a 3rd Party (SK) killing a scum/town is 50-50.
Assume the chance of scum killing town at night is 90%, the SK being the other 10%.
Assume the chance of the vigilante (assuming one exists) killing town/scum/SK is 45/45/10 percents, respectively

If we mislynch tonight, the possible outcomes of the night are (since orders nor repeats don't matter):

Town, Town, Town

Town, Town, Scum

Town, Town, SK

Town, Scum, Scum

Town, Scum, SK

Scum, Scum, SK

If I color code them in different shades to correspond with this legend, then we can see our odds of how our night will play (bolded for clarity):

Most Likely

2nd Most Likely

3rd Most Likely

3rd Least Likely

2nd Least Likely

Least Likely

What does this boil down to? Simply put, in my opinion:

Another mislynch at this phase would be devastating, and we can't afford one. Period.

PEdit:

The general tone I get from Oz is devoid of emotion - controlled. Maybe it is that comforting avatar

I don't feel like I'm devoid of emotion, but I'm trying really hard to keep my control and composure because when I freak out in games I always get mislynched, the way I'd describe my feelings for this game would be desperate. I feel like every lynch we make from here on out needs to be peer-fuckin'-reviewed by to-notch scientists to make sure our logic is sound, because at our rate, we're just fucking ourselves over.

And yes, my Avatar helps me keep my cool because Raymond Reddington is cooler than a cucumber .

[Ozgin]

Oz, are you calculating 1 nk and the mislynch or 2 nk and the mislynch?

I dont think your calculations are correct but I'll look over it again.

I'm calculating 3 NK's tonight, assuming we have a vigilante, a Serial Killer, and a Scum Team still in play, that's the 3 Kills of Scum/Town/Sk in each row.

That's based on the event of a mislynch today, assuming we kill neither scum nor the SK.

P-EDIT
@Aero and @FA: I don't get how either of you are townreading Kitz, I looked into her and I thought we was just about pure null because she's lurking pretty hard and she simply doesn't care about this game that much (it seems), so I'm finding it difficult to read her at all, let alone town read her.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, I think your calculations might be off, not that I'm that good with math:

1st night there were 3 kill attempts and 2 kills including pisskop/scum-there has to be either a vig or SK or other mafia faction for pisskop to be killed, there also has to be another faction for the 2nd kill attempt. I'm going to assume with a vig, that they are not every night or they are X-shot if there is one. The thing that confused me is there has only been one NK per night the past 2 night so somehow, NK's are being blocked-they are either hitting a BP SK or a BP townie or a doc protect if we actually still have one of those.

So, let's just assume there is 2 kill possible a night and let's just assume 5 scum total including Pisskop. Now, if there was an SK or second faction the teams would be larger. There is no way there would be a 6 person scumteam in a game this size. If SK or multiball, we can go with 3 and 3. If SK and one team. We can say 5 and 1. I am going to assume with the lack of kills there is one team and a 3P for now. 4 scum left plus 3P/SK.

So we have 14 alive right now, worse case:

We mislynch and there are 2 kills and we are just crap down on our luck and town dies-11 alive tomorrow, 6 town, 4 scum, 1 3P

We mislynch again, good lord let's hope we don't but say we do, 2 kills and we have the worst luck ever and town dies, 8 alive-3 town, 4 scum, 1 3P-we are toast.

This all assumes the worst happens and we actually have an SK and multiball-just to be safe here, I'm assuming the worst.

We can mislynch once in the worst case scenario.

Check my math cuz I screw that up more often than not.

Well I was just considering tonight's possible NKs, and since we've had so few NKs recently, I figured if there would be a night with a lot of deaths it would be tonight.

Isn't it still possible that we have a vig, SK, and a scum team?

[Ozgin]

Hmm, let's do a compromise.
The lynch is leaded and followed with by the most towny person.
If that player we all decide is the most towny decides a lynch, we'll follow.
Obviously we can't think of ourselves as towny.

The most towny out of the whole bunch is Wolf in my opinion.

Really? While I think SilverWolf is town definitely, I also think elusive is really town (a little moreso than SilverWolf). Even so, I don't think it makes sense to let one person decide - The whole town mechanic works on town people making themselves look like town and seeing others who look like town, and the town as a unit generates votes based on who doesn't "fit in," I.E. Scum.

UNVOTE:

I guess my Cheetory vote is silly, and I

guess

he kinda reconciled his outburst, but I still didn't care for it. I also don't care for either wagon right now. Ugh, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells because looking at all the bad possibilities that would follow a mislynch is sobering.

I need to compose a readlist, but I'm so bad at them/afraid they'll make me look like an idiot (I feel really dumb when I build scum cases because I'm never sure of anything I do).

On a semi-related note, I'm starting to question the accuracy of my own analyses, because my math was kinda off (which is why I should have shown all the math I was doing in my head -- for clarity), but it's still

somewhat

accurate.

[Ozgin]

Reaching out to Ozgin and elusive-What do you think of either FA or Marquis? There isn't going to be a new wagon today unless something drastic happens and everyone else has made up their mind. I am willing to move my vote if I have to so I need to hear from you guys. Which one would you rather vote for today? That's all I need to know.

TIA

I don't wanna sound lazy, but I almost entirely agree with:

SW, I'm not sure. I think the fact that Marquis is showing activity (and I guess people stating that Wake is too good to make the kind of weird things he did as scum at least with the hammer and threats) is making me not want that slot dead just yet. I guess FA is where my vote will be later tonight. Cheetory is probably who I want dead the most atm.

I even have Cheetory as my top scumread atm. The only thing is, I don't wanna vote either of them until we have to. The only reason I would take Marquis over FA_Q at this point is Marquis' decent case on FA_Q, and I like Marquis' reads list better than I like FA_Q's reads list, but that might be because Marquis explains their reads a little better and their read list is also more recent than FA_Q's (but only by about 100 posts, give or take).

[Ozgin]

I don't particularly

object

, SilverWolf, but I'm hesitant because I won't know how to proceed on the grounds of FA flipping town, other than wanting to turn attention to Cheetory.

PEDIT:

VOTE: FA_Q

Since SW did it, I wanna spread my Overkill sauce on it. For shits n' giggles.

[Ozgin]

Sorry, fell behind a bit

@T S O -- Why do you say you doubt there's a Serial Killer, exactly? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, if there's only one scum team (Which we have no evidence to support a second team, either), then unless there were TWO vigilante's night one, which seems unbalanced and unlikely in a normal game of mafia, then there

has

to be either a Serial Killer or a Werewolf team, and with this few players and only one anti-town kill (pisskop), then I don't see why a Serial Killer is unlikely?

Also, what happened to the TSO/Cheetory conflict? Why did that die out so easily? I'm a little behind (a few pages, I just skimmed from the start of the day to here), but I feel like there's almost no TSO/Cheetory rub anymore and that's kinda strange to me.

As far as ABR's tracker results go, thanks to the shitty way he played the middle few days, I don't think we can reliably use any of his "results" as evidence. ABR lied about everything he could, every chance he had. It's hurting us now in the long run. Is there any real case against Shinobi that doesn't involve ABR?

@dragonspawn: I feel like I was the only person who

didn't

catch NS's doctor crumb, so why do you think it makes GM scummy that she did?

My To-Do List:
Read up on Kitz
Read up on dragonspawn

[Ozgin]

I've backed off of gm for the moment.

Fair, but why

did

you think she was scum, exactly? Be specific, please?

[Ozgin]

Hm, I think your internet is fine now Wolf.
Just pointing that out.

---

#Everyone: We still have not solved the mystery of the first night. Pisskoff was killed (who was scum), Boonskies died (who was doctor), and Viking claimed being attacked and healed.
So here's my wacky "What The Fuck" theory. Is there a mafia role who suicides itself in order to turn another into mafia? Back where I am from, we have that role.
Inb4 a thousand facepalms.

*one-thousand facepalms*

But no, I've never heard of such a role, and if it is a thing it isn't Normal. There has to be a non-town third party, and I'd be willing to bet my bananas it's a SK.

[Ozgin]

Because I don't need to ask your permission to do things.

While I think it's a dick reason, you're not wrong.

Silverwolf/House started in a neighborhood, then I took over and hence my being in the neighborhood. We've just been sharing reads and ideas, helping one another build cases (or debunk them if they're bad).

So why bring it up? I think you

might

be trying to divert attention from yourself.

If I'm scum what's my reason for outting you?

So why bring it up? I think you

might

be trying to divert attention from yourself.

What I said here, and it's also scummy that you just arbitrarily threw it out there, for seemingly no reason. If you're just exercising your right to pick up crumbs and share information, fine, and if you're exercising your right to be a dick, that's also fine, but you're probably smarter than that. What's your

angle

here, ds? You get put under pressure and start outing others to draw attention elsewhere?

[Ozgin]

I've backed off of gm for the moment.

Fair, but why

did

you think she was scum, exactly? Be spiecific, please?

Ask your neighbor.

I also feel like this shook off my question. Can you go back and answer this, dragon, and without the starky in-your-face answer?

[Ozgin]

For timing, we have lost quite a bit of the town. There aren't a ton of us anymore, town doesn't need another group of people hiding at this point. And there is no guarantee the two of you are both town. As our numbers dwindle the odds of you having scum in the hood increase.

You still haven't answered if there are more that just ozgin and you wolf.

Did it occur to you that house might have ulterior motives for crumbing? He is quite shrewd. I haven't decided.

And we had plans on outting soon enough, for similar reasons. We had plans in the event of one of our deaths to out, as well. We were pretty close to outting ourselves.

I did answer that, look back at my posts. You're so good at reading posts that you caught a neighbor crumb, but you can't read blatant statements?

And no, it didn't. I tried figuring out why House did it (SilverWolf brought it to my attention when I replaced in), and all I could figure was that maybe he was setting it up so that if House died, someone would be able to figure out his neighbor (though I don't know the value of that, either).

[Ozgin]

Sorry I've been a shitty (lurky) player lately, going V/LA for tomorrow. It's been a hectic school week, but I've been reading up to this point.

Spoiler: @TSO

While I see your point (and it is a good point) that Marquis' 4504 is bad, but in your quote for "today," I think the whole point (if I'm reading it correctly) is that you were being passive and then today he OMGUS'd you after you said you wanted him dead, but I also think his 4375 explains his vote flop to you in his 4491.

In 4491 he kinda explains his own shortcomings in his Shin read:

Shinobi right now I'm still not liking at all, but I'm willing to admit that my approach to that was flawed so any response he has to me would naturally incense me in return. I just... I really have no idea anymore. I feel like I'm sabotaging my own reads at the very least. Ignoring again for now.

Which then it only makes sense that he'd switch to you because in 4375 he identified both you and Shinobi as his two top scumpects:

why do i get the feeling that we just have a lot of town outclassed by scum in experience at looking town?? shinobi, tso? i could see those two easily driving a scumteam.

Spoiler: Marquis

Do you think if you get lynched and flip town, that it'll confscum TSO? Why or why not? You said in your read TSO was an overagressive OMGUSer and a misrepper of your meta, can you point to specific posts of that nature?

Starting to really like spoilers because it makes my walls less wall-y. I wanna hear from both sides, directly answer my questions. That way I can make a fair enough assessment of the situation.

[Ozgin]

First is an added bonus, second is a misrep- pretty sure I've already said it's not that you thought FA_Q2 was scum, it's how you acted toward the lynch so aggressively without second-guessing once there was support for it in the form of my case. Judging from the 100 or so posts prior to that in your ISO, I see no mention of a scumread or any thoughts on FA_Q2, and a general lack of anything other than talking about ABR/Math, brushing off people scumreading you, and I think there was a post about you offering to lynch easy low content targets gm or Aero (I also noticed you gave gm "townpoints" for something I don't get before that so I'm a bit curious as to how and why things have changed there)

The main, core thing is a gut+meta read that you absolutely would not have attacked me like this if you were town. You know the caliber of my town game versus my scum game, and this feels almost exactly like the same way you shut me down and lynched me when my main scumread was you in N's game (as Cho). But of course the rest of town here who mostly don't know me and I suspect are newish or like to do things "by the book" won't really take that as reasoning. Which is fair enough.

All of your posts are also just attacking me for "not having an argument" and repeating things along the lines of "you're going to flip and you're going to flip red!!!" and at this stage I'd expect some sort of...

something

, really, that approaches the situation with a clear mindset that you're town. Like "I'm town and you're wrong" is simple enough but I don't remember seeing anything major like that that asserts your own alignment as least a small part of your responses. It's all defense through offense, which is to be expected from scum, or at the very least someone like you.

atm you just look like scum who's really pissed off at people agreeing with me for what you think are bullshit reasons because "gdi I've been so town I'm going to get caught by these idiots for shitty reasons" and I'm kind of loling at it tbh because I don't really care enough about this game to attempt to try and word my read in a way everyone can understand. I mean I already know I suck as town, particularly when it comes to articulating my thoughts on a strong read. I'd rather not be proved right on that again.

Probably my favorite response from either of the two (TSO/Marquis) in their back and forth. This is the most compelled I've felt this entire time against TSO.

Who knows? Maybe NS was on me and I got shot.

That's an oddly specific/random possibility you bring up. What possible reasons could you have to support anything having to do with you getting shot instead of NS?

[Ozgin]

Prodge, explanation incoming

[Ozgin]

So I have to limit myself to one game, and I've decided to limit myself to this one because of how much time and effort I already have invested in it.

School has gotten... rough. I'm struggling to graduate with grades high enough to keep the scholarships for college that I've won and the scholarships that I've applied to. I've had 5 major projects/portfolios/papers due in the past 72 hours and I'm finally on Easter Break. However, my break also requires me to do a lot of church-related services (music ministry) and I have two tests to study for the day I return.

That being said, I plan to continue playing Mafia in my free time, as it is the only hobby I have, and it's helping keep my sanity.

Thank you all for being patient with me, I have about a dozen pages to read. I'll be caught up shortly.

Sincerely,
That guy you forget is playing in your game,

~Oz

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin: Have you been fighting with Shinobi?

No. I had a slight conflict with Shinobi but it was in a lousy bit of rage.

Remember what happened the 4 other lynches? "Me or another".

ERMAGUD IT REPETZ

This is 100% accurate to my feelings for the TSO/Marquis fight. However, I'm pretty convinced that TSO is serial killer.

Spoiler: TSO is the SK

Oh, you claimed an unverifiable role which happens to have the same powers as a Serial Killer?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........

So this post made me question whether or no TSO could actually be the SK or not, and whether or not his vig claim is legitimate. Because it is perfectly valid to debate whether or not a player is a Town Vigilante or a Serial Killer trying to leash himself as a vigilante.

Actually, the point about the vig is completely relevant - our vig had "presumably" shot scum on night 1, which shows they are a competent player and shouldn't have to be limited to doing the policy work of the town.

The MathBlade kill was also optimal last night, because ABR did not retract his claim - thus, the vig has yet to really slip up, reinforcing my point.

Interesting how he chooses a quote that happened way after the next four in this "wall of crumbs." This isn't a crumb, this is him saying "I'm about to claim vigilante because I've been setting this up for a while."

if MathBlade is Vengeful then why did ABR track her to Ellie? How has Math concluded that ABR has gone from 100% scum to town?

This has absolutely nothing to do with vigilantes. Seriously, how on earth is this a crumb to anything? It's just drawing unnecessary attention to MathBlade. Maybe this is where you started to get the bright idea to set up these next few quotes...

Can we all just talk about MathBlade's what-the-fuck stance for a bit?

This is in no way a crumb for a vig claim. This is, in my opinion, his SK-slip in this series of quotes. He thinks this is a crumb for him being vigilante because in 2 posts (next quote) he's going to set himself up to claim vig and shoot Math. However, this post, in and of itself, is just a gateway into attacking MathBlade/building town hate on MathBlade. This literally reads to me, "Can we all just start hating MathBlade so when I fakeclaim vigilante I won't get yelled at for killing her?

TSO you said you were townreading ABR a while ago.
Why are you voting him over Math if you think I'm right? :/.

Because either he dies from vig or lynch and the vig could do better than shooting him.

This is where he, very conveniently, is setting himself up to claim vig soon after. Notice how he doesn't even remotely acknowledge the likelihood of the scum team killing Math or even the SK.

So, let's get this straight: ABR got a result last night, which wasn't you, as town, and has decided to lie yet again... ?

Yep However when I explain it plainly and you do but attack what is clear it is frustrating.

ABR even said so.

The vig could do better and shoot you as ABR is town.

The vig is never going to shoot me - it's likely the vig is going to shoot you. If I were the vig, I'd already have the action sent.

This quote just sounds like he's setting himself up to claim vig the next day or two. I mean, this is screaming "Hey look, the vig is going to shoot MathBlade tonight!" *Stabs MathBlade* "See look! I'm the vig, here's where I admitted it!" Also, note that this is just 7 posts after the last post he quoted, where he's conveniently doing the same kind of setting up for a vig claim.

Crumbs. Last one especially relevant.

This whole things feels like TSO is trying to set himself up at the vig very conveniently. I think it's just as likely that TSO is the SK, and planned on killing MathBlade and using that kill as a set-up to try to conf-town himself. I believe he picked MathBlade because she was generally disliked, so he would easily be able to give some bullshit excuse when he claims vigilante so he doesn't get too much friction for it (and thanks to Aeronaut, that plan isn't working).

There were three kills in this game n1.
We have a Vig who shot scum n1.
I claimed the vig.
I showed my motivation for the n1 shot.
Ergo, I am town.

Just because you disagree with one of my shots, and you're retrospectively using that shot's townflip to argue your point, doesn't make me scum. It doesn't make me anywhere in the realm of scum. I have explained why I shot MathBlade. You disagree. Quite honestly, I couldn't give a fuck.

This is TSO getting really angry when his scheme to make MathBlade look like shit before his vig-claim set up isn't working. Also, there's nothing at all to say that you killing pisskop makes you town. You could have gotten lucky. Or, the real vig could have shot pisskop and you could have shot one of the other 2 people who died N1 and are just conveniently claiming that your shot was the one on the scum.

Stop your fucking set-up spec. Even if you think you know it, speculating on it has no benefit to anyone if you are town.

If you're scum, keep on speculating.

Lastly, this is the quote that basically says "Nobody go into setup spec because you'll then in turn be questioning me and I don't like suspicion!" I normally would agree that setup-spec is a bad reason for a scum read or a sk-read, but at this stage of the game it gets a little silly to think there are actually this many PRs.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, half of that analysis is based on TSO not crumbing and then the other half is crumbing anyway.

How so?

My point is that his "crumbs" were either not crumbs at all, or carefully orchestrated so he could fake claim. Sorry if that message didn't quite get across.

[Ozgin]

So SW are you saying Ozgin is also a neighbor?

Yeah, I'm permanently a neighbor with SilverWolf.

@Shinobi - It's a gutread. I honestly feel as though it was all too orchestrated.

@TSO - I'm saying I feel like you're the Serial Killer, who planned on claiming vig. You started to crumb this fact: "The Vigilante will kill MathBlade." Then you tried to paint MathBlade in a negative light, so when you actually killed MathBlade, nobody would be angry/surprised that Math was killed. Then, you claimed vig, subsequently claiming your crumb of "The vigilante killed MathBlade," and played off on everyone's hate for MathBlade so nobody was angry that you killed a town. There's also nothing saying that YOU killed the scum n1. There was another kill. What if you killed Boon by mistake?

However, SilverWolf made a good point to me - there's no point in arguing this issue for the rest of today. SK or Vig, it doesn't matter. The point is you have the ability to kill things at night, and this can help the town hugely.

We have Ozgin, who's saying "hey thats not a crumb neither is that but that is you crumbing but maybe youre crumbing as sk!!!", where he took a gigantic post to come to the conclusion that, yes, I crumbed. That's it. That was the sum total of the conclusion.

Very not true about what my point was. I was addressing each of your "crumbs" directly. Some weren't crumbs, and the crumbs that were there happened within like 15 posts of each other, as if you were really zealous to orchestrate this idea of you being a good vig who has to be town and killed MathBlade. I just think it's shady as fuck and unbelievable.

Trying to figure out where I stand on Marquis. Gimme some time.

[Ozgin]

TSO, you're missing my point.

I'm saying that your Vig claim is too good. Too planned. Too... calculated. I'm not denying that you could be SK, but I don't think it's a 50-50 chance. I think the way you went about it makes you more likely to be the SK.

Also, does anyone else remember how weird it was when TSO started the day with, "I'm starting to doubt the existence of a Serial Killer," or something to that degree>

[Ozgin]

I am starting to doubt the authenticity of the Serial Killer as well - one night of 3 kills out of 5 nights has me skeptical.

[Ozgin]

Day 1 - "Let's kill someone random! Why not? I'm the SK, it's my

job

to kill everyone. Either kill scum luckily or doctor (just as lucky for me, since I'm anti-everything)."
Day 2 - "Oh look, a scum died last night. I can claim that as my own work."
Day 3 - "Hm. I'm gonna hard crumb that the vig will kill MathBlade tonight, then as the SK kill Math so I can claim vig later! They'll have to buy it!"
Day 4 - "Everyone is shitting on FAQ. Instead of claiming vig now, I'll just ride out this wave and let them lynch someone, and claim tomorrow."
Day 5 - "Everyone look! Turn your attention to day 3 - I must be vig because I hard crumbed this! I also must be town because I'm a vig and scum died night 1! Let's kill Marquis!"

Now, if Marquis flips town on a lynch and you're alive tomorrow (And no scum die tonight):

Day 6 - "Woah woah woah guys, it was an honest mistake! I'm a vig, not a cop! I couldn't have known my kill last night was town, and I couldn't have known that Marquis wasn't scum! They looked like scum! I dunno why I'm still alive! Please don't lynch me!"

But if the scum kill you tonight and you flip SK, I'll probably laugh harder than I should. If you flip vigilante, I'll feel pretty stupid, but my gut is SCREAMING at me.

[Ozgin]

Your gut isn't worth anything, sorry.

You're absolutely correct. I'm just saying I'm not ready to buy into this whole TSO-vig thing, and that's fine. I have no intention of killing TSO yet, because right now I don't have a reason to suspect him scum, and even if my gut SK-read is correct, for now he's better off alive and tropsing around as a town vig than as a dead SK who can't kill people that we, as town, want him to kill.

I mean, hey, worst case scenario he's a Serial Killer on a leash, right?

[Ozgin]

Well I don't think you're scum, Shinobi, but my townread on Marquis is actually stronger than my townread on you (I'm townreading Marquis, lean towning Shinobi).

That being said, I was gone for like, 3 days, who fucking knows how much time we have left? I sure as hell don't. Do we have time to stir up a stronger wagon? If not, and if I have to choose between Shinobi/Marquis wagons, I'm more likely to hop on the Shinobi wagon than I am the Marquis. I'm reading his ISO on the other tab and his reaction to TSO's claim and TSO's attacks on him read town to me.

PEdit:

I asked you to make a fucking case for Aeronaut as scum. You refuse to put in the work. So either produce a scum case on Aeronaut using his ISO or stop whining like a brat.

I kinda agree with this. What is your case on Aeronaut? Give me something else to look towards.

[Ozgin]

I just explained why I think Aero is scum, and I've been asking about him throughout most of today anyway.

Which refers to:

Aeronaut is still reaching to try and lynch our claimed vigi while directing his shot.

Which isn't much of an explanation.

Pedit:

Shin, I'm just asking for something more elaborate and reliable than "Aeronaut is trying to lynch the guy who claimed vig."

Pedit2:

the fact that oz wants to lynch him claiming he is a SK instead of hunting scum makes me think that he is scum.

>"the fact that oz wants to lynch him claiming he is a SK instead of hunting scum makes me think that he is scum."
>"the fact that oz wants to lynch him [...] makes me think that he is scum."
>"oz wants to lynch him [...] he is scum."
>mfw

I have no intention of killing TSO yet, because right now I don't have a reason to suspect him scum, and even if my gut SK-read is correct, for now he's better off alive [...]

[Ozgin]

@GM that's what I was saying in the post where I said I wanna leave TSO alive! Like I said - Worst case scenario is he's a Serial Killer on a leash.

[Ozgin]

Your logic keeps falling to pieces in certain areas and you refuse to address these:

-Why the fuck did I kill Boonskiies n1 if I'm the SK?

I didn't say for certain that you did, but it's possible. Why did you kill pisskop if you're the vig? It could have been blind luck.

-Where's my n2 kill?

You could have missed your shot, because bulletproof people exist. Maybe you shot the same person that scum did.

-Where's the vig's kill n3 if I'm the SK?

Again, if there are 3 killing parties, it's possible for kills to overlap.

-Where's my n4 kill?

By this point you would have realized your claiming opportunity, and made the choice not to kill anyone.

-Why hasn't the vig counterclaimed me?

See below.

And, here's one for the road:

Why the fuck would I set up a Vig claim when the alive Vig would just counterclaim me?

So this is the most confusion part for me, because I simply don't know. This is where my gut has taken me, and this is the only point that I can't reason for. Something is fishy.

So even though I don't have all the answers, like I said: gut read. I'm not even calling for a lynch on you though, so your enormous reaction is strange to me.

Pedit:

I went to the store really quickly when I started this. Coming back to read the posts that happened while I was gone -- TSO, if Marquis is going to die no matter what today, tell me -- why do we have to lynch him? Why don't you shoot him and be venerated tomorrow as the great town vig who nailed a clean shot on a scum?

Again, something is fishy.

@dragonspawn - Why did you never respond to my post where I pointed out that you pretty much misrepped me by saying I wanted to lynch TSO?

[Ozgin]

Except, you know, nobody else being ready to lynch Marquis, so why not try to lynch another decent scumspect and then shoot Marquis tonight?

Pedit:
@dragonspawn

"Because even though you said you don't wanna lynch TSO, you're trying to lynch TSO."

I can't facepalm any harder, holy shit. Is this how TSO feels about Marquis?

[Ozgin]

Shinobi, I disagree. I think, if the Marquis wagon isn't moving, he should just shoot Marquis and lynch another decent scumspect. But that also depends on how much time we have left -- which I don't know.

[Ozgin]

Also, Shin, dragonspawn is trying to get at the people questioning you about Aero (elusive, me, etc) are defending him, not that you are.

[Ozgin]

Marquis, I'm not in a neighborhood with gm. Never have been.

TSO, I'm not discrediting you. I just want to be overly cautious because if you're a SK, you can potentially blow up on us all.

However, like I've said in most of my posts regarding this issue, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN LYNCHING YOU.

Anyways, I don't think Marquis is scum and I'm not ready to vote either way yet (Marq or Shin).

TSO - Why're you so sure you're going to die?

[Ozgin]

I seriously dont see how any of you could argue that tso isn't town. His entire game play has been town from the beginning. He is obviously the vigilante. Why the heck is that so difficult to see?

i don't think we have a SK. I highly doubt tso was deliberately not shooting people to pretend to to be a nonconsecutive vigilante.

and oz, you can claim your being cautious all you want. The fact still remains that you keep going after tso rather than hunt scum. That seems scummy to me.

So I'm really not understanding how me believing TSO isn't the vigilante and is the SK is suddenly equivalent to me wanting to lynch him? I'm just saying that I wanna treat TSO like a blast cap in a pound of C4 - very carefully, very controlled-ly, and very nervously. He can do lots of good for town; but he can hurt us also. Just remember that.

I was gonna vote Shin too, man that's scary, because I'm not ready to hammer him yet.

PEdit:
>Mfw my iPad doesn't load like a whole page and I miss Shinobi actually posting some good stuff.

[Ozgin]

Why are people voting for Aeronaut? @Everyone

Why is Aeronauts fighting of his wagon, "Well even if I'm scum why does that make Marquis town?" Like, what the actual hell is that? @Aeronaut

Why won't Shinobi just re-state his case instead of saying "Read the thread!" over and over? Why not just do it to shut everyone up who you're claiming won't read? @Shinobi

And why does dragonspawn wanna sheep TSO's votes so much? @dragon

2 pages, that's all that I had to read this morning. And now I'm confused. I @'d all the people I'd accept answers to my questions from, so someone... please help me out here.

PEdit:

@TSO - Even if I get past my doubt, what makes Aero a better lynch than Marquis all of a sudden? Where'd your conviction go from a few pages ago? Why suddenly give up on lynching Marquis to start another wagon (which is something I brought up and was scolded by you and Shinobi for), when you and Shinobi both clearly said that the best course of action is to lynch the likely scumspect (Marquis) and free up your shot?

In other words, I guess what I'm really wondering is this: Would you rather advocate a Marquis lynch and shoot Aeronaut tonight for his shenanigans?

PPedit:

@GM - Why does my fighting with Shinobi

even matter to you?

Why does the

magnitude

of our fight even matter to you?

PPPEdit:

Guis pls stahp posting for 5 seks so i can has teh post.

[Ozgin]

EBWOP: Thank you.

[Ozgin]

No no no, Shinobi - I understand that. I know what your reads are. But instead of saying "Just fucking read the thread!" when someone says "Hurr gimme yo reedz," say something like, "I explained my views on players x, y, and z in (Insert post #/post link here), and players a, b, and c in (Insert different post # here)."

Because people are stubborn and won't take "Go read," as an answer.

[Ozgin]

@GM - Why does my fighting with Shinobi

even matter to you?

Why does the

magnitude

of our fight even matter to you?

Shinobi claims that (A) there was fighting amongst the three of you (you, Shinobi, Kitz) and that (B) me medium-scumreading the three of you for completely unrelated reasons therefore makes me Scum.

The magnitude of your fight matters not at all to me, excepting that Shinobi is attempting to justify (B) with it.

Well I never really fought Kitz, and my skirmish with Shinobi was relatively small (At least compared to like, Math/ABR fighting). I must have missed where you scumread us three, can you direct me to where you did that, or refresh me on what those "completely unrelated reasons"?

@TSO - Answer my question from earlier please.

[Ozgin]

The reasons will be in various places if I did so choose to share them.

If you did so choose to share them? So you don't wanna share your reads?

[Ozgin]

So you don't wanna share the reason for your reads?*** -Fix

[Ozgin]

Also, I just read the votecount again, and Shinobi is at L-2, Marquis is at like L-5 with TSO hopping to Aeronaut and with dragon sheeping right behind him, and Aero is at L-4.

I don' like any of the 3 wagons. If I wanted to start a new wagon (Which I think would be ludicrous at this time) it would be on dragonspawn for the relentlessness of his sheeping. However, since TSO would probably drill into my anus if I did that (because I'd be attacking his pet sheep), it's probably not wise to go after dragonspawn today.

I like the Shinobi wagon more than either of the Marquis Wagon, but I'd be willing to vote Marquis if TSO and his pet would hop back onto him, because I think both Marquis' and Shinobi's wagons are better than starting a wagon on Aeronaut, who I've never really scumread.

I also wanna hear TSO's answer to my question about pushing Marquis.

[Ozgin]

Why not?

[Ozgin]

Sheeping is, however, a great reason to identify someone who is a terrible townie and is only helping scum by being so easily controlled, and are a dire threat to town's success at this stage of the game.

[Ozgin]

But relentless sheeping over and over because they blindly trust one individual?

[Ozgin]

Jesus, why isn't this one dead yet?

Because people aren't voting for him.

Since he's at L-2 I could put him at L-1, but I'm not letting someone get hammered for stupid reasons again.

[Ozgin]

"Only newer players can sheep."

Seriously. Rofl.

She said that new players can sheep because they're new and can get away with it, and if someone has 2-3 confirmed Mafia kills then yeah you can sheep, but otherwise you shouldn't and dragon is that otherwise.

[Ozgin]

VOTE: Shinobi

Because I think Aero is townier than Shinobi, and I don't understand the wagon startup on Aero. That's making up my mind, Wolf.

[Ozgin]

If you really don't care, vote for yourself or replace out. That kind of attitude has been toxic to this game.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, I'll answer your questions once you answer mine. I want to know why exactly you believe I'm the SK, given I have made 5-6 logical points on why I'm not. You responded to, perhaps, one. Not good enough.

I told you, it's my gut. I have no empirical evidence, if that's what you need. The vig could be withholding their counterclaim for personal reasons. And my question to you is more pertinent to the current vote situation, considering nobody, including myself, wants you dead today.

PEdit:
You tell me exactly why Aeronaut is scum, and I'll change my mind. But I think Shinobi is less town than Aeronaut, and you said it yourself: It's either Shinobi or Aeronaut at this point.

[Ozgin]

So I'm going to be unavailable for the next maybe 24 hours. I need help NOW to make a decision. Give me the reasons for voting Aero, tell me why he's scummy.

[Ozgin]

Can I get like, one quote for each?

And Aero, where are you anyways?

[Ozgin]

UNVOTE:

Consider this my intent to hammer Aeronaut.

Aero, Shinobi got you here and here and here.

What do you have to say for yourself?

[Ozgin]

If Aeronaut flips scum then I'll be inclined to believe TSO is town, and so is Shinobi.
If Aeronaut is town then I'll probably stick with my SK on a leash theory with TSO, but my townread on Shin won't change.

[Ozgin]

Also, and I promise this is my last post (sorry my thoughts are kinda scattered, it's 9am ffs), but I'm coming back to hammer in about an hour if nobody quickhammers before me.

[Ozgin]

I think so. His interactions with Aeronaut in the last few pages have been pretty town, and SilverWolf has pointed out some things in the neighborhood that I also think are worthwhile for determining Shinobi to be town.

[Ozgin]

@Aero Why.

[Ozgin]

Ofc I'm using it as a shield. I tried talking rationally to people and it's not fucking working.

I can come up with reasons to think of GM as either alignment but none of them are good in terms of thinking of her as possibly being town.
Elusive isn't even bothering to explain why she's voting me.
Aeronaut is still reaching to try and lynch our claimed vigi while directing his shot.

These are my scumreads right now. I say I'm on the fence about GM but if you put a gun to my head, I'd say she was scum.

If you want to believe that all of ABR's checks are fake anyway, go ahead. I genuinely hope I get lynched with two likely scum roles that have extra visits with a tracker check on me.

Here's another one

I'm very weary of some of the Shinobi/TSO/Cheetory interactions with each other today. I really didn't like this post in which Shinobi accredits the interactions between Marquis, T S O, and himself as simple paranoia that stems out of "mutual respect" for each other. I feel is subtly implying that they're all town, and that people should look elsewhere. I also don't like his constant assertion that two people fighting in a game suddenly makes them town. Shinobi has been here long enough to know that that's not really the case, and it bothers me that he's trying to push that.

Aero still doesn't have a reason to be on my wagon afaik. I just mosey'd onto his scumlist out of the ether and it doesn't seem like he cares about my answers to anything.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I'm not going to be voting Marquis today. Best option today is Shinobi, who won't share his full reads with us, or really provide a lot of details of his thoughts outside of random one-lines which really don't hold a lot of weight with me. He keeps trying to milk that D1 "no track" read which doesn't conftown, and really can't be trusted much coming from ABR.

I'd like to vote Shinobi, but I have no idea what the VC is and I'd like to not accident-hammer. I believe he was L-2 last I checked.

So these are what I'm looking at.

[Ozgin]

You can quote it and the answer I gave you. I gave you a full readslist so you have no excuse to not know what my reads are.

Your point on me talking about probably being tracked is absolute garbage and you know it.

Here's another one

I'm very weary of some of the Shinobi/TSO/Cheetory interactions with each other today. I really didn't like this post in which Shinobi accredits the interactions between Marquis, T S O, and himself as simple paranoia that stems out of "mutual respect" for each other. I feel is subtly implying that they're all town, and that people should look elsewhere. I also don't like his constant assertion that two people fighting in a game suddenly makes them town. Shinobi has been here long enough to know that that's not really the case, and it bothers me that he's trying to push that.

Except I said that everything that was said by the two of them was completely reasonable. I have experience with Marquis' scumgame and this is is so different that I don't believe this is it, and I had reasons to believe that TSO was town as well despite the fight. I had no reason to believe that the fight made either of them scummy.

Nice try though.

Ofc I'm using it as a shield. I tried talking rationally to people and it's not fucking working.

I can come up with reasons to think of GM as either alignment but none of them are good in terms of thinking of her as possibly being town.
Elusive isn't even bothering to explain why she's voting me.
Aeronaut is still reaching to try and lynch our claimed vigi while directing his shot.

These are my scumreads right now. I say I'm on the fence about GM but if you put a gun to my head, I'd say she was scum.

If you want to believe that all of ABR's checks are fake anyway, go ahead. I genuinely hope I get lynched with two likely scum roles that have extra visits with a tracker check on me.

Dragonspawn exists. It seemed like he was catching on to the majority of the accusations on me being bullshit but I'm an idiot and didn't catch it. So townlean.
Ozgin seems reasonable and towny I guess.
Cheetory is.....I don't know how to describe it. He's here and he's asking questions, but then he gets answers and leaves and it just doesn't seem like my answers sated him in the first place because he's still on me. I'd like to say town, but I really don't know.

I gave you the rest of them as you asked.

Nice job ignoring them.

And here, Aeronaut, are his (in my opinion, pretty good) responses.

He DID post a readslist. I agree that the tracker argument is dumb. The rest of it he addressed.

[Ozgin]

So what of it now, Aero?

[Ozgin]

It's been over 2 hours. Should I hammer him or not? Should we wait to hear him out?

It doesn't look like you're about to make much of a convincing argument, Aero. I know you're not voting, you didn't vote him when you wanted because you didn't wanna accidentally hammer. You're still the #1 advocate of Shinobi's lynch, and you've been talking about getting him lynched for the last like, 3 pages. You even went as far to say he's "obvscum" at this point.

[Ozgin]

I think it's 2 days now?

[Ozgin]

Fine enough. I just wanted to wait for him to get home, but I guess it's time.

VOTE: Aeronaut

Cross your fingers, ladies and gents..

[Ozgin]

Yep. I was scum.

Wait, is this a joke or are you serious?

[Ozgin]

Well fuck me, my reads suck and I suck. I guess I have to reevaluate everything.

[Ozgin]

Idunno, I'd joke after my hammer.

[Ozgin]

Dear people who were voting me that are surprised I wasn't town

What the actual fuck

Why did you vote me if you think I'm town

That's silly

You didn't have the answers to Shinobi's response -- You were caught with your pants down. That's why I voted you. I still thought you were town up to that point. It only took your one moment of weakness, and a lot of convincing by SilverWolf in the hood to trust Shinobi more.

[Ozgin]

Also, I'm only moderately sober.

[Ozgin]

I will say that TSO really should be lynched tomorrow. Because there's not a vig in this game.

What does this mean? Explain, now.

[Ozgin]

@Aero: Why isn't TSO the vigilante?

[Ozgin]

And how are we supposed to trust that you're not just spouting bs because you got caught and lynched?

[Ozgin]

@TSO, shoot SilverWolf for that god awful post just now.

[Ozgin]

That's... Interesting. TSO, did your shot miss or what?

[Ozgin]

What if Mafia targeted TSO and TSO targeted GM, GM bulletproof scum neighborizer and TSO bulletproof SK?

[Ozgin]

@Marquis

Well apparently there's 2 BPs at least now, GM and elusive. Why do you choose one over the other? I will agree, though, that I have pondered the idea of scum elusive.

[Ozgin]

VOTE: oz

Seems a good place to start. He's been pinging me a while.

I am V/LA, and will be for at least a week. I am so sorry, guys, but access is impossible right now.

I'd lynch Ozgin > gm.

Why and why?

[Ozgin]

I have:

Shinbo - Town. I had some light interaction with him, he always read as town to me even though we butted heads a little.
Dragonspawn - Leanscum. Blindly and relentlessly sheeping the "vig," always for the same reason. What if he's scum and letting the "vig" drive?
TSO - Leanscum. I don't know that I buy he was blocked. What if he's not even the vig, what if he's a mafia goon or something, his team voted to shoot someone else, and missed? They were BP? I really don't like that he didn't yield a kill last night, and the person he targeted can't explain it.
Kitz - Null - I honestly haven't read you yet. SW gave me points for why you might be town, but I don't totally buy them.
Marquis - ??? - Seriously I don't even fucking know here.
elusive - Leantown, I kinda believe her claim and such.
Cheetory - Hardlean scum. AtE usage was off the charts, and seems to kinda just be shuffling on by. I really don't like that.

[Ozgin]

I just realized I posted the elusive read from my notepad. #Lol

[Ozgin]

Also, I've always townread SilverWolf. She was a great neighbor and I'm actually pretty bummed about not having her around.

[Ozgin]

I've completed 1, replaced into and died in 1, and replaced out of 2. Those last three mentioned I played almost all at the same time, so I'm relatively new. Why does it matter?

@Kitz - I didn't bother to read you because, until now,

you haven't even

cared

about this game.

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin:

And me?

Sorry, I missed you. I don't know what to think, because if you're not BP or something, then TSO is lying. But I don't know why you're alive if TSO shot you, so one of you two is off. I dunno which.

TSO - Leanscum. I don't know that I buy he was blocked. What if he's not even the vig, what if he's a mafia goon or something, his team voted to shoot someone

Uh.
VOTE: Ozgin
Yeah Ozgin has literally not budged an inch on TSO despite mountains of evidence to suggest that he isn't worth lynching right now and his read on me is also pretty garbage.

Shinobi is probably town because of counterwagon things.
Kitz is town.
GC should do catch-up things soon but he's also probably town.
I'll wager that TSO is almost definitely town if Ozgin flips scum.

That leaves goodmorning, marquis, ozgin and dragonspawn.
Don't really have a strong feeling on GM or dragon, but there's probably a scum in there.
Ozgin and marquis are my current best guesses for scum.

"Oh look he scumreads me, let me find a reason to OMGUS..."

Seriously, you're gonna give me shit for having suspicions about a guy who claimed to take a shot on someone who they scumread with no kill? And no mafia kill last night? I'm sure you've got all the answers, right? I'm just an idiot whose chasing butterflies. Bite me.

And what the hell is this bullshit?:

...just because he hammered especially since intent had already been given before the hammer had actually happened.

Or just Ozgin because he put a hammer down after Silver had already given intent?

Ahem...

UNVOTE:

Consider this my intent to hammer Aeronaut.

Aero, Shinobi got you here and here and here.

What do you have to say for yourself?

Came before

Intent to hammer

So do you wanna go ahead and push that "Hurr durr he hammered when SW had the intent, hurr" card some more? Or are you actually going to fucking read the thread?

[Ozgin]

EBWOP - GM that first quote is me responding to you, I fucked up the quote. My apologies.

[Ozgin]

Sorry about my angry tone, something about Cheetory's attitude made me read it like he thinks he knows better than me and that my suspicions of TSO are stupid.

But seriously Cheetory, tell me why you're pushing a scumread on me based on a lie?

[Ozgin]

I'm still waiting for Cheetory to see that I called his bullshit.

[Ozgin]

So do you wanna go ahead and push that "Hurr durr he hammered when SW had the intent, hurr" card some more? Or are you actually going to fucking read the thread?

I admit I missed this.
Doesn't mean your hammer still only came after Silver said she'd also be willing to hammer.
I also don't really think a hammer on scum should clear you as being scum. Do you?

But seriously Cheetory, tell me why you're pushing a scumread on me based on a lie?

I suspect you a lot more for a shitty push on TSO than for whatever else you're trying to insinuate I'm pushing you for? Unless you're calling me saying your push on TSO is bad a lie. I'd love to hear how that works if so.
I've walked through like ten times why TSO as mafia is basically impossible at this point. You calling him a potential mafia just seems way too out there to be coming from town. Please tell me how mafiaTSO shot his scumbuddy pisskop on N1.
Or do you think someone else did that and is just biding their time to counter claim him?

I hammered when SW said she was willing to because it didn't matter who hammered him at that point. I wanted to wait only because I wanted to be 100% sure that town wanted it, and since SW is my neighbor and I trust her (well, was and trusted), I hammered on her command because I knew she had the town's best interest in her mind.

But you're right, my hammer on Aero doesn't instantly clear me of being scum, but I don't think I've behaved in a particularly scummy way so I don't feel like I

need

to be "cleared" of anything.

It isn't impossible. It is in fact possible for someone to be biding their time to cc him, and maybe there is a Serial Killer in this game (that may not be TSO). But I don't understand pushing on me for "a shitty push on TSO" because I have yet still to ever once advocate a lynch on TSO. Yes, I have my share of doubts about him, but in a game with this much fucking bullshit everywhere,

I have a lot of fucking doubts about a lot of fucking people.

Even now I'm far from advocating a TSO lynch, I just am really curious about the current state of the game, and 0 night kills makes no sense to me.

Is that really your entire case on me? Or are you just looking for an excuse to come after me, almost as if you're trying to pull a lynch out of your ass? I've seen posts say, "Oh well House may have seemed scummy at one point, but Ozgin hasn't done anything to make me think he's scum so I'm gonna ISO him and try to scrape the bottom of the barrel to maybe look for a reason to start a wagon on him, hurr." I really don't understand that, and I really don't understand TSO's vote on me either.

Like seriously, I don't think I've done anything scummy, and yet I think there are some better reasons why certain other players (Cheet) may be better scumspects.

[Ozgin]

Sorry if I err on the side of belligerence, I'm in excruciating pain (I feel like my muscles in my arms are shredded into confetti) and so I'm mildly cranky.

[Ozgin]

@dragonspawn - I'm new. Fairly new, at least. And of the few games I've been involved in, I've been exposed to House only like, 2 or 3 times at most. And you know what? Even I can tell he's a really sarcastic and sassy player.

If you're going to scumread me on sarcasm, and not on any of my posts or House's (non-sarcastic) posts, then you sir are a shitty scumreader. And that's coming from a noob.

I'm pretty sure SW posted her case of Cheetory on here, if not I'll find it and bring it up. She had some good points.

[Ozgin]

Cheetory: 2542/2544 is AtE, 3903is more complaining now about game being boring, 4099 certain TSO is scum, 4113 and 4114 AtE, 4122-nobody cares AtE, 4124-it's all unfair AtE, 4188-MORE AtE, 4191-good lord the AtE is stiffling at this point, 4232-WTF? Suddenly TSO is NOT scum and FA looks good?, 4250-mockingly bad vote on FA

Cheetory, can you comment on SW's post here, you may have before but I must have missed it. Plus, I wanna specifically know what your thoughts are on your atrocious AtE that SW pointed out?

[Ozgin]

Oh, is it out that I'm neighbor with Ozgin?

Then yes, SW and Ozgin discussed the 3-shot vig.

So everything I said is true, just reverse who is actually the 3-shot vig between Ozgin and I.

Not only does Ozgin's discussion look super genuine, but the fact that:

Saturday April 4th was when 3-shot vig was mentioned in the PT.

That is true means Ozgin claimed 3-shot before elusive was modkilled and revealed to be 3-shot.

Confirming this. I wasn't absolutely ready to jump into this claim because I knew SW would go to hell and back to support me and then got force-replaced, but Green Crayons has earned my trust on the extremely bold claim on my behalf.

VOTE: TSO

Let me show you all. TSO will, without a doubt, flip SK.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin is the 3-shot vig. His discussion in the PT looks super genuine, and I believe him 100%.

I claimed so scum would kill me tonight so I can get out of this game. And so you lot wouldn't lynch Ozgin today. But I'm not going to suffer a mislynch because town lynches a counter-claimer WHO HAS NO REASON TO FAKE COUNTERCLAIM.

But then why didn't Ozzie claim?
Now I really suspect the two of you lel.

Vote stays.

GC claimed for me, I've been kinda away. I was setting up this claim with SW before the whole elusive-SW thing happened, but then SW was gone. Prior to that, I didn't want to counter-claim TSO because I knew I couldn't beat TSO in a 1v1 at the time, and I was biding my time to plan my last shot, which I still don't know what to do with.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, you presumably shot me last night, yeah?

Ozgin's play

still doesn't make sense from a Town perspective.

Yesterday, in an attempt to push through a lynch on you, I claimed Vig. Ozgin saw that.
At that stage, Ozgin had two options - counterclaim me, which would almost certainly have lead to my death, or go along with me and shoot me last night.
If Ozgin did not shoot me last night that conclusively proves he is lying.

I am waiting for Ozgin's clarification on shooting me before I continue on this train of thought.

1) I did not shoot you, I didn't wanna waste my shot on a presumably BP SK. Considering I'm on my last shot, I

really

don't want to waste it.

2) I had a lot more than two options, don't narrow

my

decisions down to two options that you speculate would have "certainly lead to your death," because it's stupid. If I had CC'd you, I don't think I'd have the pull to overthrow you. SW/GC are the only people who have trusted me consistently, and I felt that everyone else was, at best, leaning towards a town read on me. You had people who were practically tattooing "TSO Conftown" on their fucking chests. Who would you honestly think would have won that blow for blow? And for the shooting you last night as an option, read (1) as to why I didn't.

3) How in Sam-Hell does me not wanting to waste a bullet on you as a BP SK show that I'm lying? Riddle me this, Batman:

Did it ever occur to you that I didn't want to shoot you because if you're BP and I missed, then it'd be really hard to CC you? Maybe I sat on my last shot so long so that now, when I am counter claiming, I can prove myself by putting a bullet in -another- scum?

GC already said my shots. I killed pisskop and whiff'd on elusive. I think the fact that

you

didn't yield any kills last night is interesting, though, and makes me wonder about GM. I don't understand all of this blabber about it. The process is simple:

Spoiler: The Process

-

Step 1: Lynch TSO

-
Was TSO the SK?:
----------

Yes - Know that I'm the Town Vig and help me make a decent fucking shot. If I take it tonight, evaluate it as you will. If I don't, help me make one tomorrow. I still don't know if I should take my last shot tonight, but if you all help me, then we can come up with an idea of who to kill.

----------

No - Then you can lynch me, but I'm 100% certain this won't even be an issue.

-

Step 2: Tomorrow, look into scumspects based on TSO flipping SK.

-

Step 3: Repeat step 2 every fucking day and let's stop dicking around as town, because this has been a rough game.

[Ozgin]

We already established that T S O is a possible Vigi or a SK, meaning he's not the Mafia.
There were supposed to be a CC for ages and there never were. If it's the true Vigi, they did a very anti-town thing.

The way these two buddy, it could either be an orcestrated lie that they made, or... Well, they're more likely Mafia than SK, which is who we want to bring down.
The SK won't kill the town yet.

For all we know, neither SW or Oz would even claim Vig in the first place.

Your logic doesn't resonate with me. Our goal is to lynch all threats to the town, and I'm literally handing you a Serial Killer on a silver fucking platter. I explained why I held my shot.

As for the "For all we know..." part, I don't even comprehend your point there. Seriously, I don't know what you're trying to say.

[Ozgin]

Where the heck is this concept of a Bp SK coming from?

He said it "sarcastically" to Aero before the lynch, in the same post where he "sarcastically" said he was the SK. I read it as him trying to be sarcastic,

but since he's actually the SK, what's to say he's not actually BP?

Now, what's the argument against me? TSO just shouting "He's lying I swear!" and "There's no way anyone except for me could have known pisskop was scum, so since I'm a better player than him he has to be lying!"

Fucking. Eyeroll.

VOTE: oz

because I have good reason to think he tried to kill tso and missed.

I'm so fucking glad that you know exactly what I've done and how my thought process works! Oh my goodness gracious, good job detective! The only thing is, you're actually a fucking moron because you're wrong.

I will hold intent to hammer myself. I'm the town vigilante, and it can only be proven by either my death (wasting my last bullet) or TSO's (killing the SK). If this is what I have to do to prove it, so be it.

[Ozgin]

Actually, Aero -is- talking to his scum buddies right now. I would take him at his word - I'm a Bulletproof SK. You're just wasting your bullets.

So the post was post-lynch, but this is the sarcastic post I referenced earlier.

[Ozgin]

If either TSO or Ozgin/GC had claimed aiming for Boon then I'd have totally been down with the possibility of 2 Vigs, ftr.

P-Edit: I'm not completely aware of the D1 situation but TSO makes a point about pisskop.

What point? That I'm just too stupid to have possibly doubted pisskop, and TSO is so great so it makes sense that it was him and not me?

Maybe I took a random shot because this is my first time being the vig, and I got both trigger-happy

and

lucky. Speculation as to why I took my shot is so fucking stupid, it's numbing.

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: This

it's also shady as fuck Ozgin hasn't told us where he's shot, for what it's worth

That information has been posted twice.

My apologies, I haven't been reading whatever he's been posting because I know it's bullshit.

This is bullshit, you're not reading? My ass you're not reading, you're just desperately trying to misrep me because

you fucking know I'm right.

Fuck, this game is gonna kill me. Fucking literally.

[Ozgin]

For something completely different, I give this game 10/10 for the confusion.

I again say that I don't want to see TSO lynched yet. I'm moving my vote to Ozgin. If there's a true neighbour thing but that Ozgin is a Scum, GC could be defending unknowingly.
VOTE: Ozgin

"I just don't

wanna

vote TSO, so I

guess

I'll vote for the vig. I mean, hey, blah blah setup spec about neighbors blah blah vote."

I held my shot last night, but I honestly considered shooting you or dspawn, dspawn for relentlessly and mindlessly obeying TSO like a fucking puppet, and you for posts like this that just

don't make any fucking sense.

That, and you don't even want to be here.

[Ozgin]

Dragonspawn is basically softclaiming the fact Ozgin is lying.

And how the hell would he even fucking know? Oh wait, he's your minion, he'll go to the ends of the Earth to defend your lying ass.

[Ozgin]

mobile but ozgin replaced in less than a rl-day before D1 ended

of fucking course a random shot would make sense

This, pretty much. I replaced in, and I got a little excited honestly.

Why couldn't elusive have been the scumkill N3, for instance? Makes an equal amount of sense.

And, again, me not being dead N5 only makes sense if TSO was in some way blocked.

And how would TSO have been blocked

if the mafia roleblocker is dead?

Is it even remotely possible for there to be another RB in this game?

I will be home in about an hour to and hour and a half. If I have to hammer myself, I will, but I'll be damned if TSO makes it out alive as the SK. I'll. Be. Damned.

[Ozgin]

Well, I'm home.

I'll ask someone who I actually think is also townie:

Marquis. Should I kill myself to prove that I'm the vigilante already?

And for future reference, as in when I'm dead:

Reads:
Kitz - Scummy. Makes almost incomprehensible posts/arguments against me, just trying to perpetuate my mislynch.
Cheetory - Scummy. AtE, lousy posts, and a pattern of lurk/AtE bullshit/lurk/AtE bullshit etc.
TSO - The SK. I am 100% sure of this fact. There is no doubt about it.
Dragon - Null, ish? I can't tell if mindlessly sheeping TSO is just his god awful town game, if he can't think for himself, or is just a scum cheering on a shitty lynch.
GC - Town. I townread SW's slot, she was the only player I ever even trusted this game. I trust GC equally.
Marquis - Town. Pretty decent, level-headed thought processes. I understand where their thoughts came from most of the time. For I time I doubted Marquis, but now I trust them.
Shinobi - Lean Town. Rubbed me as town whenever I interacted with him. Pretty good posts. Seemingly level-headed.

[Ozgin]

GM - Lean scum. I feel like she doesn't care often, and I don't always get her points. I don't feel as though I've interacted with her enough, and I don't like that I don't have a huge level of interaction with her.

Did I miss anyone else?

[Ozgin]

Remember Aeronaut! Remember the feelings of doubt and paranoia you had, and the euphoria you felt when you saw that red flip! Channel that for me.

Holy AtE, does anyone else see this hard buddying? The AtE? Any of this?

I'm not above begging. But I'm begging. Please, PLEASE fucking lynch this.

[Ozgin]

If Ozgin is town then this is seriously the worst fucking town.

You know what? Yeah, I'm a pretty terrible town. It's my track record so far in all the games I've been in that finished. Seriously. I'm a terrible townie, probably because I'm still wet behind the ears here. But I'm not incompetent entirely, and I can't be the only person here SEEING THAT TSO IS HARD BUDDYING CHEETORY, HAS DRAGONSPAWN AS HIS PUPPET, AND IS PLAYING HARD FUCKING AtE!

I know I've scumread you, Cheetory, and even if you vote TSO and fucking trust me, I'll still probably doubt you. But do you really trust a player as good as TSO over a noob who's literally begging you for the sake of the town?

Fuck. I'm so frustrated. I just want to win one. Fucking. Town. Game. That's it. One.

Gah.

[Ozgin]

Though you said you'd self hammer.

do it. We are calling your bluff. Lay down your cards

I want to be told by someone I actually trust, and not just TSO's pet dog.

[Ozgin]

I know, I'm trying my hardest here to do just that.

[Ozgin]

"TSO is using AtE"
"I'LL HAMMER MYSELF I SWEAR I WILL"

Is this not all AtE and buddying hardcore? Am I wrong? No. Just fucking read this shit, people:

Spoiler:

Cheetory, I could never break your heart like that.

Remember Aeronaut! Remember the feelings of doubt and paranoia you had, and the euphoria you felt when you saw that red flip! Channel that for me.

[Ozgin]

Though you said you'd self hammer.

do it. We are calling your bluff. Lay down your cards

I want to be told by someone I actually trust, and not just TSO's pet dog.

in other words, you had no intention of doing it. It was all a show to get us to back down.

In other words, you're fucking brainwashed and I want to hear from an actually competent player, thanks.

[Ozgin]

What a fucking joke, you are. This is. This all is.

I really can't be the only person who sees how transparent this is. Dragon and TSO just sitting here, tag-teaming me, one the puppet surrogate of the other, and the one in charge is the fucking SK.

Marquis, Shinobi, anyone other than my fucking scumreads, please -- tell me where I'm wrong? What's so off-the-wall about my thought process here? I know it's 4/20, but I can't be

this

high?

[Ozgin]

Fuck it, you'll all learn.

VOTE: Ozgin

[Ozgin]

Jesus.
Are you actually town? :/

TSO was as correct as I was. I stand by what I said about TSO. I was not wrong. You're all playing to the hands of the Mass Murd-I mean, SK.

I'll let you take that message at face value.

[Ozgin]

Was it really so difficult to keep your word and prove yourself

if oz is lying we have another scum.

if by some way he is telling the truth and tso is a serial killer he is dead.

Are you sure that me flipping scum and TSO being SK are independent events?

If you are, you shouldn't be.

But hey, TSO will say it better himself, "Oh he was just bullshitting, you can't trust the words of a dying scum!"

I'll laugh with TSO when you're all dead.

[Ozgin]

Also, @TSO - Good show, mate. You'll be figured out soon enough, though.

@Dragon Think about it. How can my claim on what TSO is be just as correct as his claim what I am be? Hmm. I wonder.

[Ozgin]

New it.

and if tso is SK then we will kill him.

how many of your buddies are left oz?

@Dragon -- Good luck proving that TSO is SK. I mean, hey, he's conftown now. And so is GC. As for how many are left, the world may never know.

@TSO -- Because, I don't like Twilight Princess. Wind Waker was a better game. .

*Begins ascending*

Pissssskopppppp, herrreee I commeeeeeee!~~

PEDIT: I do. You'd have to trust me. But ha, like you'd ever trust scum, right?

[Ozgin]

Nah. My suicide was my own mission.

Honestly, I wasn't expecting GC to claim for me. Totally blindsided me.

[Ozgin]

Nah. My only dying message is exactly what I said:

TSO was as correct about me as I was about him.

@DSpawn - The heat was on, there was no escaping the pressure. I'd have the eye on me for the rest of the game. Especially if you lynched GC and she flipped town, that'd almost confscum me, and TSO would have shot me anyways and bolstered my death as his claim to fame.

I figured, "Why no try to take down the only other strong anti-town alignment left in this game while I'm going to die anyways?"

[Ozgin]

Also, you don't need to hunt the SK - He already owns you, dspawn.

[Ozgin]

And I don't really know how to react to Oz's self-vote then claim of scum.

Like, I guess Oz is scum? SW was completely convinced in the PR, and so was I after reviewing it.

I really wish I hadn't lost her. I had won her over after very little effort, because House almost entirely won her over before that.

[Ozgin]

Yeah. Sorry we couldn't get to know each other better, GC. We'd have been good friends in neighborhood I imagine.

[Ozgin]

Or maybe I was bussed. Who knows, I hammered Aero didn't I?

&&

If you wanna know the real truth, dragon, TSO is the SK because Arnold Schwarzenegger told me in this one movie about kindergartners.

[Ozgin]

Look at the big bad SK, bossing the town around like he's the fucking mayor lol.

The sheep follow a wolf in sheep's clothing here, man.

[Ozgin]

And did you notice that TSO only came after me the day after I didn't want to pretend to be a town who believed him and just agree with him being the SK? How the day after I said I think he's the SK he insta-charges me?

Makes you think, huh?

[Ozgin]

Look at the big bad SK, bossing the town around like he's the fucking mayor lol.

The sheep follow a wolf in sheep's clothing here, man.

Hey, word from the wise - you gotta be more subtle when you're flinging mud. You want to give off the "I don't care, he's SK, just sayin'" vibe, not the "He IS SK! Did you hear that? HE'S AN SK I SAID!". Otherwise, people might think you were still trying to aid your faction or something crazy like that.

Ooooh you cocky sonofabitch, you got it made, don't you?

[Ozgin]

This game has been incredibly, incredibly frustrating in many different parts, but despite that, I don't think I've enjoyed a game as much in a long, long time.The dance has truly been a pleasure, Ozgin. Your steps were almost perfect.

Thanks for the credit, sir. I am still wet behind the ears, you know.

Gg, all.

[Ozgin]

>mfw I'm so high that I forgot to mention I'm actually town, and I'm so happy and bubbily because TSO just got busted.

HeheheehahaHHAHAHAa. Gg, TSO, gg.

[Ozgin]

Jk, I only posted that because I'm silly.

Dragon, read my messages here to you at least 3 times over this next night. Please. Something will click with you, I'm sure you're bright enough to catch the crumblings I left you.

[Ozgin]

Shin, just read every post of mine after the suicide.

[Ozgin]

I think this was the best game I've ever played (And I swear I'm not saying that because my team won).

[Ozgin]

TSO, you're literally the scariest scum/3rd party I've ever played against, you scared the piss out of me.

[Ozgin]

I came in late after it started, and then died before it ended, and it still felt like it dragged allllll the way the fuck out.

[Ozgin]

I want the scum PT to be released.

Also, when we killed the doctor, it was my idea and it was 100% arbitrary. There was no crumb pickup, no read, just a stab.

[Ozgin]

LMFAO, Silver, I was thinking of posting something like, "I don't know what I'm gonna do when you're dead tomorrow " but I didn't wanna risk it xD

[Ozgin]

Also, the only holdup on the Scum QT was pisskop not wanting it out, and pisskop kinda said it'd be alright if it was released in the Dead QT