NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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I find it unlikely that MCM is actually a mason.In post 2836, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:I doubt Maraca are a viable wagon today after the claim.
"The scum have daytalk because the masons do" is an invalid deduction.
No urgent purpose for sharing such "knowledge" exists anyway.
And it is obvious that claiming mason at L - 6 reduces town's odds of winning.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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In post 2836, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:I doubt Maraca are a viable wagon today after the claim. I am open to lynching Geists. Not at all confident in the read but I dislike the other wagons although I am not entirely sure about SC.
VOTE: Geists
F16 why did you use the phrasing "I am open to lynching Geists" in a 'working out the kinks in a townread' situation?In post 2858, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Changed my mind. 2848 was incredibly town but I pushed it farther to make sure I cover all my bases and don't get paranoid of you again for the rest of the game. I was townreading you all throughout the game and wanted this one read to be my stake in the ground (especially with Tammy being V/LA) but that wasn't happening because I couldn't see your reasoning for the MC townread. I guess I got what I wanted. Sorry if that was annoying.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz
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Norlkaz Goon
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Llamarble flies by the seat of his pants more than Norlkaz does.
Norlkaz is much less noisy and needs to be caught up before becoming active.
I have read through page 120.
In a game this large I believe it is difficult to lynch scum without a couple of town leaders.
I was planning to be one today, but I failed to bite in to the necessary degree.
I shall read Stuffed Crust now and either put down a vote or put down a reluctant vote.-
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Norlkaz
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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I am caught up, but figuring out who to lynch will take more time. This is not an easy game.
Cephrir and Bert stand out as capable scum who are currently active but not in the trenches.
I don't especially trust Generic, but tilting into someone who will probably claim a PR is worth at least a few points.
A scumteam based on Pieguy, whom I don't understand the townreads on:
Pieguy
Bro
BBQ?
Muffin or Desp
Ceph
VOTE: PieGuy
He'd be an effortscum, but how many players are left who wouldn't?
Casso is still an option. F16 less so.
I am somewhat disgusted by MC / GM being masons, but they laid considerable groundwork for the claim and haven't backed down.
It's worth mentioning that Marangal claimed masons as scum in Wingate, but she was also scummier in that game.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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My EARS said "WORMSIGN" while I was reading Nacho's #4410.
I had to look around and make sure that wasn't somebody's ringtone or something.
The post is alarming because the primary purpose seems to be showing us how much work Nacho is doing.
His descriptions are too detailed for a notes-to-self post but too mashed-together for a persuasive post.
Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.
I would appreciate improved quality controls on your posts so that I can work with you, though.
I selected Norlkaz for this game over Llamarble because Norlkaz generates pristine, beautiful ISOs, which should ensure people actually read my posts.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.In post 4434, Casso the King of Seals wrote: I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Do what you must, Geists. I'd rather not create more posts discussing creation of posts.
Having a Dictator is productive. Otherwise scum will make whichever town leader wants to lynch town win out.
Broseidon is probably town and potentially a mason.
I'd say that Nacho's Sangres wall had substantially more Bite.
I grant that he stacked reasons together in a similar manner, but Sangcho used emphasis in a way that made it clear his paragraphs had purpose beyond existing.
VOTE: Casso
I don't have a raging urge to lynch SSK.
My latest scumteam guess goes:
Bert
Ceph
Casso
SAD is a possibility.
Sakura is a possibility.
I must reread PieGuy.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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PLEASE ABORT.
Geists, I think you have chosen poorly.
First and most importantly, SSK is NOT likely to flip scum for behavioral reasons I shall explain when we have more time.
His doctor claim has gone uncountered. I find it unlikely we have no protective role.
Doctor is valuable here because we have a lot of other roles claimed AND we're on evens with our vig dead.
The high likelihood scum will shoot him if we leave him alone is a factor as well.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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In post 4790, Desperado wrote:pretty sure that's exactly what happened tho
Tell me why those things work from SSK scum and I'll reconsider.Those of you who have played with SSK before are welcome to tell me why the below aren't good reasons to townread him.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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If a serious attempt comes I shall eat you alive, even if I have to break character.In post 4792, KoreanBBQ wrote:and then norl-
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Norlkaz Goon
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This post serves no purpose. If something upsets you, do something.In post 4926, Cephrir wrote:*throws fit*
There are reasonable counterarguments to many of the things I posted regarding SSK.
Isoscum deployed a similar "why are you ignoring my vote" and the emphatic quickreaction may have been real excitement caused by how well Ceph's post fit the narrative he was creating.
"I don't understand this wagon" is certainly an easy way to not engage.
Perhaps that read was wrong. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.
Casso's first hundred posts don't justify not lynching them.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Desp is not an excellent lynch either, on first pass.In post 1106, Desperado wrote:why on earth are you treating me like town right now
VOTE: Cephrir-
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Norlkaz Goon
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I withdraw my townread on Broseidon.
Desp might be scum. Casso might be scum; they have some townie posts but aren't at Nachotown's power / energy level.
20 hours is still enough time to lynch Cephrir.
I think I'm one or two massive timechunks away from a real grip on this game; feel free to run me up D3 if I'm slow on them though it should really already be pretty clear I'm town.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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For the benefit of those examining me, my defense of SSK was sincere and I later noted some of the arguments I made didn't feel so strong in retrospect.
It's not at all unusual for me to change my mind or argue against myself, and I think I've actually hurt my activity a bit by being uncertain and afraid to be wrong.
You won't get much more introspection from me. You will get more scumlynching though, as promised.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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You've played one game with me in which I was very important to scum getting lynched D1, my other accepted D1 lynch was also scum, and the other 2 scum were in my pool of 3 additional persons of interest with the person in that pool who wasn't scum marked as eh probably not when revisited.In post 5705, Bert wrote:
You're all talk (I can see some Mastin in you) and not much else!In post 5704, Norlkaz wrote:For the benefit of those examining me, my defense of SSK was sincere and I later noted some of the arguments I made didn't feel so strong in retrospect.
It's not at all unusual for me to change my mind or argue against myself, and I think I've actually hurt my activity a bit by being uncertain and afraid to be wrong.
You won't get much more introspection from me.You will get more scumlynching though, as promised.
I then copped one of the scums in my 3-pool and the game would have ended D2 with 4 scum dead to zero town had I been doc-protected N1.
I'd expect a bit more respect from someone whose only other experience with me was a game where almost everything I said was Golden Truth.
I haven't made things happen yet this game, but in a few hours that won't be true.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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I don't take issue with people scumreading me at this point; if you meant "you're all talk this game therefore you're scum" then that is an okay deduction.
Can we confirm once and for all who MC claimed masons with?
I'm open to a massclaim here; we're clearly already down our two best roles and are going to have to lynch scum today and go it mountainous.
VOTE: Cephrir
For lack of a better way of describing the pattern, he lacks manliness.
Also he has a lot of posts which have "to exist" as a purpose.
And there are lots of little 'yup this is scum's in there.
I actually feel pretty good about this one.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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I'm not drawing direct parallels from ASOIAF, but having played with Cephrir before does help.
Tammy is perfectly capable of yelling at people who call her scum, and worked in combination with some of the people I'd read more closely or something like that.
Tammyscum wasn't a read that stood the test of... lasting more than 3 lines of my ISO?-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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I have about as much respect for this statement as "Creationism should be taught in schools so students can see both theories."In post 5765, BROseidon wrote: Vig is anti-town.
Vig is more powerful than cop. You can wrongly argue against that and I won't be mad, but "vig is anti-town" is actively irritatingly stupid.
I am trying to dig into this game and find the thread of play, but the rush of motivation has been slow to come. I shall make another attempt tomorrow.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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I hate to spend time on this, but: Some vig stats
Vigs contribute more to winrate than cops in even number start games (like this one) and break about even with cops in 3:10.
You can construct situations where the cop is stronger, but most of the time the vig wins because a lynch must be consumed to remove a copguilty while a vig's action is confirmable / still works if the vig is shot.
I've always found it weird that Llamafluff champions the anti-vig movement since he's an engineer and should know better, but I think he's had some bad personal experiences.
If you want to talk about vigs vs cops postgame that's fine; I won't be mentioning it further before then. Vigs being protown isn't up for discussion though.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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VOTE: MafiaSSK
Even if he turns out to be town he deserves to die for cheese nonsense & "I feel like lurking."
We can add more pages to the thread if for some reason you think that will help town, but putting off a lynch with clear intent to eventually execute it isn't productive.
There are too many possibly wrong assumptions (an NK won't help us figure anything out, SSK is scum) and too much benefit to reducing the number of scum as quickly as possible.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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My experience with you has contributed to my scumread of you. I have not reread ASOIAF for comparison.In post 5759, Cephrir wrote:
I have seen a lot of reasons for me being scum over the course of my years here, but I'm not sure I've seen one this good at making the opposite of sense. When have I ever been a "manly" mafia player, especially as town. Confidence is literally a scumtell for me. This post might as well read "Cephrir is scum because he's town". That is how much sense you are making.In post 5733, Norlkaz wrote: VOTE: Cephrir
For lack of a better way of describing the pattern, he lacks manliness.
Also he has a lot of posts which have "to exist" as a purpose.
And there are lots of little 'yup this is scum's in there.
I actually feel pretty good about this one.
"I'm completely ignoring every semblance of meta because it doesn't suit my point and Cephrir is playing nothing like he did as scum in that game but I really want to lynch him!!"In post 5738, Norlkaz wrote:I'm not drawing direct parallels from ASOIAF, but having played with Cephrir before does help.
Tammy is perfectly capable of yelling at people who call her scum, and worked in combination with some of the people I'd read more closely or something like that.
Tammyscum wasn't a read that stood the test of... lasting more than 3 lines of my ISO?
I've never seen you play town. I don't think you're trying to locate scum and get them lynched; I think you are trying to make posts that look town. That's a scumtell for anyone.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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I'm sorry for not towning harder and causing people to spend scumhunting time reading me. Tomorrow I'll invest a real timechunk.
I think Titus' biggest strength as scum is an earnest blobby accusations style. I would class him as good scum though not a strong debater.
In ASOIAF his train of thought didn't hold together at all; this may be something that also happens when he's town.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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UhhhIn post 6179, Casso the King of Seals wrote:
It's aggressive as hell and stubborn as hell on a lynch that is obviously not going to go through with reasoning that is not going to push the lynch through, but it all feels very Titus-esque. The biggest problem I've noticed in Titus's scumgame is that she's a bit more susceptible to influences as scum, which means she's a little more agreeable and it leaves her less likely to get lynched. Here she's on the first train out of paranoia station, she has plenty of facts disproving her generally solidly (including a flipped vig) but she hasn't been discouraged in the slightest. That is Titus town.In post 6131, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:I don't see Titus's push on the soft-claiming vig as alignment indicative at all. Explain why it is town.
IIRC Titus got pretty vehement about some pushes that made NO SENSE OF ANY KIND in ASOIAF. I was impressed by how well he pulled off the earnest-derp.
Specifically the "HOW DOES THIS GUY KNOW HOW MANY SCUM THERE ARE" thing which I'm pretty sure continued even after the townflipped census taker was pointed out for him.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Ugh. Bro is not a slam dunk.
He's kinda sardonic / engaged.
The things he pays attention to / talks about have a very low 'trying to make town win' level though, so maybe we can still give him to Sarlacc.
P. edit:
Fortunately for you, you are playing with Norlkaz.
One of Norlkaz's primary purposes is to explain things more clearly.
I still need to do a lot of work in order to have things to explain though.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Hey, I managed to withdraw my Espeonage lynch veto before we got to the end of D1In post 6295, geists wrote: That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.
F16 is right that there was a decent 'scum are voting him' component.
Today, we're lynching SSK. I've checked a couple times, including just now, and don't disagree with this. I think I got it wrong previously and it will result in a scumflip.
It often takes me a long time to explain myself, and sometimes I just end up backtracking anyway (see original SSK townreasons that had some significant holes).
Generally you will see explanations from me when I have either something particularly interesting or something relatively simple to explain or need to do it to be persuasive.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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People who are probably town:
Me
SH
F16
Geists
Mara?
GM?
IONO:
Pieguy
Generic (Haven't really looked at; slightly sketched out but can he fake his mad?)
SAD (don't remember)
Muffin
BBQ (just did round 1; inconclusive)
Probably a decent number of scum here:
Casso
Prophylaxis
Titus
COWBELL
SSK
But yeah, let's just do SSK. It will probably be easier for me to read for real when an actual choice is being made.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz
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Norlkaz Goon
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I think everyone is reading Casso as town thanks to derailing a lynch on somebody now regarded as probably town (though tbf megaderails for buddies aren't common anyway).
I wouldn't be ultraconfident off that but eh I'll get to him eventually.
I think that in general a lot of the townreads are being overstrengthed, with the possible exception of the ones on F16.
I don't particularly disagree with them though.
I'll do the should we actually lynch this guy post tomorrow.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Well I reread Titus & Cephrir.
It's hard to make judgements when I absolutely cannot get context for anything because every ISO has 400 posts.
Titus, it's worth noting that both your KBBQ vig business and your "I can't be scum because Generic claimed JK on me" are FULL ON DERP.
I'll explain for you postgame if you actually meant those things and don't understand why they're nonsense.
I'll have to look at SH next I think.
I don't feel good enough about Titus scum to proceed with a lynch for now. Time remains.
I haven't touched Casso in a while but the rest of the game is making me think they'll turn out scum.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Testing GM / Mara daytalk is a good idea. Much better than making them give a summary.
One approach would be for Mara to post an unfactorably gigantic product of two prime numbers and GM to post the factors.
Pretty simple. Possibly not allowed?
I think pulling associative tells off Generic's interactions will be very profitable.
He was probably supposed to last until endgame but got jailkept.
Scum had plenty of time to lay misleading associative groundwork with obvious-lynchfood SSK.
I regard both Cephrir and Titus as solid scum players.
I think that Titus has been a latent lynch for a while since both Falcon and I have had them on our lists for a while.
I feel like scum would see Falcon and I both voting them and think of them as a good way to secure a mislynch.
Norlkaz, Ms Marangal, Sakura Hana, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Prophylaxis, KoreanBBQ
Or, Titus is just scum and the above is a pretty town collection.
I think I should revisit Muffin; that's one of the few slots that hasn't delivered a strong dose of indignance when targeted.
I strongly believe 3 scum remain. Gunsmith Jailkeep Masons Vig are all top tier roles and justify a 5 member scumteam.
So now I have a lot of things to do research on. That'll actually happen later.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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I find scum tend to take wait and see approaches (as opposed to asking straight up) when confronted with things like this. I have not played with Talah though.In post 861, talah wrote:
Do tell.In post 852, MC Maraca wrote:
I know something youuuuuuuu don't~In post 851, talah wrote:
Please refer to my comprehensive reads list.In post 847, MC Maraca wrote:If GM is scum this game I will eat my hat.-
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I find scum tend to take wait and see approaches (as opposed to asking straight up) when confronted with things like this. I have not played with Talah though.In post 861, talah wrote:
Do tell.In post 852, MC Maraca wrote:
I know something youuuuuuuu don't~In post 851, talah wrote:
Please refer to my comprehensive reads list.In post 847, MC Maraca wrote:If GM is scum this game I will eat my hat.-
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I find scum tend to take wait and see approaches (as opposed to asking straight up) when confronted with things like this. I have not played with Talah though.In post 861, talah wrote:
Do tell.In post 852, MC Maraca wrote:
I know something youuuuuuuu don't~In post 851, talah wrote:
Please refer to my comprehensive reads list.In post 847, MC Maraca wrote:If GM is scum this game I will eat my hat.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Proph is doing a really good job if he's scum. He's probably today's counterwagon with most other options good lynches.
Muffin is fully viable as scum.
VOTE: Muffin
F16's Muffin-Titus-SAD scumteam looks really good. I think Casso may also be reasonable, but yeah.
I haven't looked at Arthur in full yet; that lynch may also be fine.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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Norlkaz Goon
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Wat.In post 7492, Norlkaz wrote:SAD has some dicey posts like 6936 and some questionable interactionsbut he plays with urgency.
I prefer Muffin or Titus for today.-
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VOTE: SAD
Perhaps I am being impulsive off of a couple random posts of SAD's and missing the ones that made me prefer other lynches yesterday, but wheeeeee!
I saw a few more posts I didn't like and a couple of 'urgent' posts that were the kind of thing scum can easily rage about. "MUFFIN'S STATEMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOURS" is an easy thing to get up in arms about if it's true.
In general a scum's posting gets more intense when they get to argue with the Force of the Truth behind them. Scum have FoT when making statements relying on others making errors; Town have FoT a lot more consistently and particularly when talking about their own towniness.-
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Norlkaz Goon
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