NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Generic]

im only teasing ya bro, you know I like to look to you for your opinions because when you are town you have a lot to offer us... I have just struggled to feel the town desp vibes in this.

You seem to have this knack of being incredibly passive and uninvolved and yet drop the occasional spark of town desp... im still trying to determine if that's you trying to present town desp or you ACTUALLY being town desp,

But I digress. I actually like the vote on SSK but every time I go near it people seem to get all 'this is a bad wagon, we could be killing the town doc'... im trying to actually stay involved and not go apathetic (the full arsehole if you like) but im losing touch with this game through wishy washy limp wristed cases.

DOMO had a bit of fucking bite when I called him a moron but has become so weak willed over everything ever since I am struggling to take on board any point he makes.

SAD looked like a decent wagon at one time but he floods the game with whining walls and everyone seems to back off him.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THE BEST OPTION?

Even the casso wagon creates a series of posts from them sapping my energy with the '5 whys' to every point made and a few people who want to call them scum but then start the 'but what if' line of thought that leaves even more doubt in my mind on pushing a hydra consisting of supposedly two of mafiascums elite.

So desp, my mafiascum nemesis, PLEASE be town and tell me where I should focus my energy on the read back now, SAD? or should we roll the dice here and go for SSK and fuck the consequences?

Believe it or not im in a good mood, but im up for a good fight if we need to put pressure on someone, I will force nacho into one even though he has been hiding from me all game... YOU HEAR THAT NACHO, I THINK YOU ARE CHICKEN!

[Generic]

DOMO had a bit of fucking bite when I called him a moron but has become so weak willed over everything ever since I am struggling to take on board any point he makes.

So you actually prefer it if I have bite? I wound my neck in somewhat because I don't actually like pissing people off. Why did you threaten to quit if you liked my attitude?

im a complicated man DOMO, and my threat was more to do with my loss of control than your ability to make a stance and fight the fuck for it.

Lets me and you call the truce for this day phase, and discuss best lynch options. I am trying eith desp, but at least with you I have greater confidence in you being actually town.

Casso is one of yours and I think you had a great point when you said the votes came in for SSK at a convenient time... lets start there and move through SAD and SSK too shall we?

[Generic]

im a complicated man DOMO, and my threat was more to do with my loss of control than your ability to make a stance and fight the fuck for it.

Fair enough. And yeah I'm totally willing to truce, I do not think you're scum at this stage; for you to be scum you're very good at faking lack of emotional control.

I just had a thought about SSK - if he's scum doc, would he claim town doc? I'm thinking scum RB'er would do well to claim town doc, because if he's tracked, he can explain why he visited a strong towny type player, rather than a scummy type player.

As for SAD, he makes me nervous, but that's largely because he owned me to shit at lylo in our other game. I'm always gonna have a hard time towning SAD. I can happily see him die because he's so fucking dangerous as scum. I'm not sure I've seen him as town before.

I see what you are getting at but there has been a lot of talk about the use of scum doc indicating a gunsmith. It's a very ballsy play but for him to claim town doc as sc doc could be to draw a gunsmith check.

But if he wasn't well versed on mechanics and setup he could be a non doc scum player inviting a counter claim. I've seen it before, but thankfully no counterclaim came.

He could also be town but I think we are dealing with an inexperienced scum team (or a reckless bunch) to not take the optimal play and take him out in the night. I don't see value in wifom on a guy who is known for being scummy looking even as town and also then trying to second guess his night action.

But then maybe that's why tammy was the target, it did seem a little left field even if she was pretty pro town (take into account that she and f16 were the early debate for one being scum, eliminating her is very obvious if trying to frame f16, and if f16 is scum why would he sign off on removing his safety net for doubt?)

I want to lynch SSK because I don't believe he is town, but the more I think on it the more I talk myself out if it, hence my aggressive jump on to try not to let doubt set in. I'm a big boy, I can accept a fuck up if he is town but I can't see it.


Pedit: desp, this can also bring you in, your thoughts on my SSK musings here.

[Generic]

Which brings us to casso then. By the reasoning both you and bro presented the naked votes from bert and hana are the most telling with regards to casso protection, especially bert who came off the casso wagon.

Can you see a bert and casso scum link in this though?

[Generic]

I think you nailed my current thought process there DOMO, but your second group has two guys who I really am struggling to read one way or the other. Cephrir and Pieguyn have both seemed town recently. I would look at putting SAD in with the first three and working with them for the time being. For a 5th I wouldn't completely rule out koreanBBQ for an outside bet either, and muffinman I simply don't understand at the moment do have kind of ignored what he's doing.

[Generic]

Also DOMO, you need to get the geists paranoia out of your head.

In a game this size what are the chances you hit the only role you feasibly will read a scum player as town with?

PoE alone says that's not even worth discussion until later in the game. And if SSK is town doc then you are unlikely to be there for that chat, as he can't las forever either from a lung or a night kill.

So we are saying SSK is off the table for today, I'm okay with that although a part of me wants him dead to stop the wifom that surrounds him.

So the push is for casso based on reactions when his wagon reached a high level? I need more if I'm gonna push to take out one of the stronger players in the game. I want to see scum play, and so am going to look at the cases presented.

Desp, what's your opinion of a casso lynch?

[Generic]

It's weird that you don't acknowledge that three scum flips and no scum doc flip means that the clear on you is less reliable. If there's only the scum doc to find then it's obvious that my clear cannot be relied upon; it's still pretty unreliable with two left.

That reaction plus your lack of casso support has me paranoid I checked out the scum doc.

ffery, why do you suppose casso's wagon collapsed in favour of a claimed doc? Does SSK not look like a preferable lynch for scum than casso does?

pedit - generic, the chances of me actually checking out scum doc on n1 is 1 in 20, but that increases alarmingly the longer geists is left alive with no scum doc flip, and geists is using my paranoia and a former scum game of mine to move me away from that line of thinking. It almost makes me think that geists anticipates a situation where she is still alive and no scum doc has yet been killed.

PoE alone says that's not even worth discussion until later in the game.

I won't be around then.

Well I get what you are saying with regards to having your voice now. What I'm saying is have faith in us to also take that in. Geists survival will be spun with wifom like he SSK thing is, but I for one if I can get that far won't let them snake out of it (I had them pegged as scum day 1 after all) .

Right now though we aren't lynching them are we? And since SSK has already expressed a link to them by claiming them as the protection target then expressing still some doubts about them today doesn't sit right... But again they aren't a lynch option, PoE says they are more town than quite a few others at present.

What do you make of SAD in this equation btw? Cephrir makes the point not to put associative tells in until we have a confirmed flip, which I understand, but I like to consider a grouping for scum and work off the one who seems to have most links feeding in as in general they will be the best lynch and give us breadcrumbs for a few other lynches.

Wih that I need to get some focus. Vote will come later.

[Generic]

Only issue here is who are the scum that are bussing SSK.

sorry to complicate things further but since we are talking about it why wouldn't a potential SSK lynch be better if scum did leave the town doc alone for us to lynch through paranoia?

The timing is the part that makes the casso link, but if the scum team saw an opening to force the wifom plan through on SSK it would make Casso either alignment.

But out of the three bert is the one that gives us least information... so it has to be casso or SSK to gain the most value from the flip.

or am I missing something?

[Generic]

And we have a concensus, beautiful.

VOTE: Casso

[Generic]

The only thing that can be a grey area is if casso is townreading several scum, and the obvious nature of a quick wagon on casso if he were to flip town.

But it all comes down to timing really, it's very convenient how it shifted.

[Generic]

Generic, I haven't been hiding for a moment this game; my thought processes are out in the open and if you need a point to engage me on, engage me on my reads. Which ones do you disagree with?

Give me a chance to run over your Iso and I shall bring some of your posts and reads to discuss, a bit busy right now to afford the time to it.

[Generic]

That makes no sense DOMO.

Why would a scum team throw away a role that can stop you to save casso? Of anything I would be considering casso more likely a roleblocker.

And I haven't forgotten you casso, just have had no time.

[Generic]

TOWN ANGELS:
Geists - Gunsmith innocent is a pretty solid reason, but even if you don't buy that, there's an extraordinarily transparent and incredibly hard to fake thought process going from the start of the game to now. Her attack on me for my early focus and strange focus on Brian definitely seemed like too "creative" an angle to take if she was trying to sort me out as scum; I would expect the fallback attack for Nacho paranoia from ffery-scum would end up looking something like "you're reading me wrong" or "you're not sorting me". I thought the harsh blowback against F-16 for his initial read of geists was very, very townish; ffery-scum's first reaction to a townread she isn't expecting is "holy shit, how is this happening"; I have trouble seeing her evolve from this to attacking people townreading her for weak reasons so quickly. Later in the game, the way she approaches not having many strong scumreads is very genuine, reaction to pieguyn initial vote on me after Sakura stuff is kneejerk and very town, a few exchanges with scumreads such as Desperado are very town. A hydra primarily guided by ffery having 500 posts on Day 2 is also a great sign.

Goodmorning/Maraca - I will admit that Cabd attaching to a weak player and claiming masons with them when they would be lynched any other way is something that gives me paranoid fits at times, but I'm still very satisfied with both slots being town on an individual basis before even considering the mason claim (although goodmorning not as town as Maraca, obviously). Goodmorning's townpoints are mostly for so consistently going after impossible targets (me, Muffin) that won't be getting lynched for a very very long time. If she really were scum, she could be a hell of a lot opportunistic than she's been but instead she's been playing with the big boys. Meanwhile, Mara has had some town as hell moments: her frustration seems more genuine than it did the last game I played scum with her.

F-16 - I thought the initial deal with me was pretty townish; there's no good reason for F-16 to promise not to kill me immediately in a game like this as scum, but convincing Nacho-scum to leave him alive makes sense for F-16 town. His paranoia about the deal later in the game (when he expressed plenty of regret, mentions making a "deal with the devil") also seem like unlikely F-16 scum things to do, and showing flashes of paranoia around me in spite of the deal (thus opening the door for me to have paranoia flashes about him) seem like something he would avoid doing as scum, considering it throws all benefit he got from the deal in the first place out of the window. His reasoning for townreading ffery early on was pretty solid (attacking me), his efforts to sort me out through ffery's read on me is wonderfully town, etc. etc. Series of posts starting at 3608 are the more in depth towncase, don't feel any less confident about this read now than I did then.

Sakura Hana - I won't talk about her play before my big push on her since I think everything she posted there is fakeable from Sakura-scum, if not outright scummy. But, I thought that the way she responded to getting wagonned (namely the whole "I have no respect for any of you after this", "what a fitting end; hurry up and lynch me so I never come back to MS again" bits) was town as hell for blacklist tell reasons (explained 3718). I can see her being frustrated at being lynched for no reason as scum, sure, but I can't see it turning into what it ended up evolving into when Sakura was speedwagonned. I thought the exchange we had over Sakura's townread on Cabd "maybe I had reasons, maybe I didn't" to "yeah, it was reaction test" made Sakura look fairly genuine, and the vote she currently has down actually seems like a pretty solid vote.

KoreanBBQ - I generally liked what GiF was doing early, followed him fairly easily. Early comment on him from QT is:
I think if you were attempting to put a vote on someone that isn't goodmorning for "not doing stuff", you have better candidates. GiF made an early exchange in reading ffery (#217), which has a few meta implications (both move awkwardly around each other when finding things that they don't like in the other, GiF is more suspicious of ffery than the rest of the meta crew but usually can't pick out what specific posts would bother town-him as scum. Ffery is less suspicious of GiF than the rest of the meta crew, but usually townreads him too easily as scum). GiF also talked of a conditional scumread on Stuffed Crust based on who was posting; there was an assumption that it was mostly Varsoon talking but GiF refuted that and pointed out that his play was gross for town-Varsoon. There was an attack on pieguyn earlier where he attacked him for being awkward around Sakura (another meta entanglement), he's generally making pushes now and playing fine. I thought that his "I'm satisfied with my posting this game and I never say that" statement was pretty genuine, as was his explanation of his total play in #2340. Nero is more active and involved than I remember him early game in Marketplace (and a few of his votes like YES I CAN FINALLY VOTE HANA seem like genuine Nerotown, as does his exchange with Mara for her late townreading him), GiF-Nacho sync was pretty cool and also unlikely to be coming from GiF-scum unless he's gotten amazing at predicting momentum ahead of time. Crowning move of towniness was #3743, which, if coming from scum, would require GiF to fight for a mislynch for a majority of the game, be in the perfect position to seize it, and then instead throw his hands up and go "fuck it". I can see where his frustration as town is coming from, and I thought giving the readslist as if he expected to get lynched afterwards and the "fuck you" comment about people not being able to say that he's not doing anything anymore is consistent with his #2340 and pretty genuinely town. I agree with ffery about Christmas miracles, and in response to Xenologue Cabd I will say this: GiF's read on the slot was primarily based on Mac, which he was decently loud about. He also didn't start pushing the slot with conviction until very, very late, which also made it seem genuine to me.

DOMO - Gunsmith claim, will sort himself out. A couple of paranoid flashes look pretty town, and claim this early with nothing relevant would be suicide for DOMO-scum down the road when he could be someone who could go deep, regardless of partners.

Bert - I think that his pieces of concern with me (wondering why I'm criticizing someone who mostly goes after lurkers based on Chosen Mafia, Hard Boiled, coming up with Nacho/ffery scumteam guesses, the "Nacho should be more charismatic and more widely townread by now" theory, then later paranoia push on geists based on gut... all of it seems like he's dealing with a variety of possibilities very quickly, and dealing with genuine paranoia; I haven't seen a Bert scumgame where he's so seamlessly went from player to player to player to player. His aggressiveness in making me see Sakura-town and embrace of the "blacklist tell" reminds me of Shoe in Wingate. He comes across as so much more genuine in his scumgames elsewhere, despite this being a large game that's pretty ridiculous and hard to keep up with.

Getting tired, but this is the townblock for now. I haven't read through Generic/Cephrir/Pie yet and I'm sure at least one of these three will make their way into the townblock. I feel very confident about this group, though (my weakest read is Bert, which should say something in and of itself).

TOWN ANGELS:

Pieguyn - A couple observations I have from the scumgames that I skimmed is that pie :effort: level here is very impressive compared to his :effort: level elsewhere, and his pushes on players here seem much more thorough than they did in any of his other scumgames. Early townread on goodmorning is a bit strange (as in I don't see the basis of it whatsoever), especially since it's one of the pie's top tier townreads; he didn't have any weird townreads like this in Marketplace. I agree with him that the strong tilt against our slot is something unlikely to come from Pieguyn-scum, and his theories of various scumteams sometimes get a little conspiracy theory but they seem very genuine (see: Casso-Cephrir team based on timing, Casso-Sakura team based on D1 and how he got people to talk about the Casso-Sakura possibility after he thought of it); they all seem like unlikely angles for scumpieguyn to push so fervently, especially when he hasn't demonstrated the ability to fervently push easier targets in the past. I also like a lot of his "I expect you would pick on on this" language, seems fairly genuine. The big thing is how absolutely out of his mind he would have to be playing in order to be scum right now, which is why I'm upgrading him at the moment.

ANGELS IN WAITING:

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum. A couple of his sentiments also come off as really really genuine based on his perception of his town play "to be honest, it's probably a towntell to suspect me right now", "Nacho, I know you're good at reading me but there are others here who are good at reading me who are scumreading me". I liked his reading of DOMO early, and I generally liked his response to being wagonned (voting me for being aggressive, probably town + post before V/LA). He does have the scumrir tone when talking to or about SC, but he lacks it everywhere else so that's a good sign.

Generic - What I like most about Generic is how all over the place he's been this game; I agree with people who have pointed out that he seems more helpful, more "pro-town" as scum. #452 is an example of him being more of a loose cannon (taking a break because being mad at Mara pretty much immediately), as is his exchange with me over how he's treating Mara ("oh, are you trying to get me to tunnel her?") and his rant about people making him explain things early and ruining everything that he's attempting to do in the game. I liked his response to me when he did form his townread on Mara; he was extremely smug about it and had a whole "this is how it's done" air about him which reminds me strongly of his towngame (one of the things that pulled me off him eventually in We the Purple is how damn smug he sounded). I also thought that the series of posts where he says he's trying to be less emotive this game to fight with DOMO later was pretty damn town; he gave the excuses for why he wouldn't be as fiery as his usual town game and then commenced being as fiery as his usual towngame. I also thought that choosing to make his big push on the PR type gives him town brownie points; more likely Generic would spot the softclaiming and kill it during the night as opposed to make a full charge at it.

I feel much more comfortable upgrading pieguyn than I do the other two simply because pie's scumgame has a much smaller range than the other two have, and I simply can't see pie going from two games where generally he got scared to drive his pushes through pretty quickly and never came close to hitting the genuine notes he's hitting here to his play in this game. Even based on his push on Sakura alone here compared to Touhou uPick is town town town.

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

TOWN ANGELS:
Geists - Gunsmith innocent is a pretty solid reason, but even if you don't buy that, there's an extraordinarily transparent and incredibly hard to fake thought process going from the start of the game to now. Her attack on me for my early focus and strange focus on Brian definitely seemed like too "creative" an angle to take if she was trying to sort me out as scum; I would expect the fallback attack for Nacho paranoia from ffery-scum would end up looking something like "you're reading me wrong" or "you're not sorting me". I thought the harsh blowback against F-16 for his initial read of geists was very, very townish; ffery-scum's first reaction to a townread she isn't expecting is "holy shit, how is this happening"; I have trouble seeing her evolve from this to attacking people townreading her for weak reasons so quickly. Later in the game, the way she approaches not having many strong scumreads is very genuine, reaction to pieguyn initial vote on me after Sakura stuff is kneejerk and very town, a few exchanges with scumreads such as Desperado are very town. A hydra primarily guided by ffery having 500 posts on Day 2 is also a great sign.

Goodmorning/Maraca - I will admit that Cabd attaching to a weak player and claiming masons with them when they would be lynched any other way is something that gives me paranoid fits at times, but I'm still very satisfied with both slots being town on an individual basis before even considering the mason claim (although goodmorning not as town as Maraca, obviously). Goodmorning's townpoints are mostly for so consistently going after impossible targets (me, Muffin) that won't be getting lynched for a very very long time. If she really were scum, she could be a hell of a lot opportunistic than she's been but instead she's been playing with the big boys. Meanwhile, Mara has had some town as hell moments: her frustration seems more genuine than it did the last game I played scum with her.

F-16 - I thought the initial deal with me was pretty townish; there's no good reason for F-16 to promise not to kill me immediately in a game like this as scum, but convincing Nacho-scum to leave him alive makes sense for F-16 town. His paranoia about the deal later in the game (when he expressed plenty of regret, mentions making a "deal with the devil") also seem like unlikely F-16 scum things to do, and showing flashes of paranoia around me in spite of the deal (thus opening the door for me to have paranoia flashes about him) seem like something he would avoid doing as scum, considering it throws all benefit he got from the deal in the first place out of the window. His reasoning for townreading ffery early on was pretty solid (attacking me), his efforts to sort me out through ffery's read on me is wonderfully town, etc. etc. Series of posts starting at 3608 are the more in depth towncase, don't feel any less confident about this read now than I did then.

Sakura Hana - I won't talk about her play before my big push on her since I think everything she posted there is fakeable from Sakura-scum, if not outright scummy. But, I thought that the way she responded to getting wagonned (namely the whole "I have no respect for any of you after this", "what a fitting end; hurry up and lynch me so I never come back to MS again" bits) was town as hell for blacklist tell reasons (explained 3718). I can see her being frustrated at being lynched for no reason as scum, sure, but I can't see it turning into what it ended up evolving into when Sakura was speedwagonned. I thought the exchange we had over Sakura's townread on Cabd "maybe I had reasons, maybe I didn't" to "yeah, it was reaction test" made Sakura look fairly genuine, and the vote she currently has down actually seems like a pretty solid vote.

KoreanBBQ - I generally liked what GiF was doing early, followed him fairly easily. Early comment on him from QT is:
I think if you were attempting to put a vote on someone that isn't goodmorning for "not doing stuff", you have better candidates. GiF made an early exchange in reading ffery (#217), which has a few meta implications (both move awkwardly around each other when finding things that they don't like in the other, GiF is more suspicious of ffery than the rest of the meta crew but usually can't pick out what specific posts would bother town-him as scum. Ffery is less suspicious of GiF than the rest of the meta crew, but usually townreads him too easily as scum). GiF also talked of a conditional scumread on Stuffed Crust based on who was posting; there was an assumption that it was mostly Varsoon talking but GiF refuted that and pointed out that his play was gross for town-Varsoon. There was an attack on pieguyn earlier where he attacked him for being awkward around Sakura (another meta entanglement), he's generally making pushes now and playing fine. I thought that his "I'm satisfied with my posting this game and I never say that" statement was pretty genuine, as was his explanation of his total play in #2340. Nero is more active and involved than I remember him early game in Marketplace (and a few of his votes like YES I CAN FINALLY VOTE HANA seem like genuine Nerotown, as does his exchange with Mara for her late townreading him), GiF-Nacho sync was pretty cool and also unlikely to be coming from GiF-scum unless he's gotten amazing at predicting momentum ahead of time. Crowning move of towniness was #3743, which, if coming from scum, would require GiF to fight for a mislynch for a majority of the game, be in the perfect position to seize it, and then instead throw his hands up and go "fuck it". I can see where his frustration as town is coming from, and I thought giving the readslist as if he expected to get lynched afterwards and the "fuck you" comment about people not being able to say that he's not doing anything anymore is consistent with his #2340 and pretty genuinely town. I agree with ffery about Christmas miracles, and in response to Xenologue Cabd I will say this: GiF's read on the slot was primarily based on Mac, which he was decently loud about. He also didn't start pushing the slot with conviction until very, very late, which also made it seem genuine to me.

DOMO - Gunsmith claim, will sort himself out. A couple of paranoid flashes look pretty town, and claim this early with nothing relevant would be suicide for DOMO-scum down the road when he could be someone who could go deep, regardless of partners.

Bert - I think that his pieces of concern with me (wondering why I'm criticizing someone who mostly goes after lurkers based on Chosen Mafia, Hard Boiled, coming up with Nacho/ffery scumteam guesses, the "Nacho should be more charismatic and more widely townread by now" theory, then later paranoia push on geists based on gut... all of it seems like he's dealing with a variety of possibilities very quickly, and dealing with genuine paranoia; I haven't seen a Bert scumgame where he's so seamlessly went from player to player to player to player. His aggressiveness in making me see Sakura-town and embrace of the "blacklist tell" reminds me of Shoe in Wingate. He comes across as so much more genuine in his scumgames elsewhere, despite this being a large game that's pretty ridiculous and hard to keep up with.

Getting tired, but this is the townblock for now. I haven't read through Generic/Cephrir/Pie yet and I'm sure at least one of these three will make their way into the townblock. I feel very confident about this group, though (my weakest read is Bert, which should say something in and of itself).

TOWN ANGELS:

Pieguyn - A couple observations I have from the scumgames that I skimmed is that pie :effort: level here is very impressive compared to his :effort: level elsewhere, and his pushes on players here seem much more thorough than they did in any of his other scumgames. Early townread on goodmorning is a bit strange (as in I don't see the basis of it whatsoever), especially since it's one of the pie's top tier townreads; he didn't have any weird townreads like this in Marketplace. I agree with him that the strong tilt against our slot is something unlikely to come from Pieguyn-scum, and his theories of various scumteams sometimes get a little conspiracy theory but they seem very genuine (see: Casso-Cephrir team based on timing, Casso-Sakura team based on D1 and how he got people to talk about the Casso-Sakura possibility after he thought of it); they all seem like unlikely angles for scumpieguyn to push so fervently, especially when he hasn't demonstrated the ability to fervently push easier targets in the past. I also like a lot of his "I expect you would pick on on this" language, seems fairly genuine. The big thing is how absolutely out of his mind he would have to be playing in order to be scum right now, which is why I'm upgrading him at the moment.

ANGELS IN WAITING:

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum. A couple of his sentiments also come off as really really genuine based on his perception of his town play "to be honest, it's probably a towntell to suspect me right now", "Nacho, I know you're good at reading me but there are others here who are good at reading me who are scumreading me". I liked his reading of DOMO early, and I generally liked his response to being wagonned (voting me for being aggressive, probably town + post before V/LA). He does have the scumrir tone when talking to or about SC, but he lacks it everywhere else so that's a good sign.

Generic - What I like most about Generic is how all over the place he's been this game; I agree with people who have pointed out that he seems more helpful, more "pro-town" as scum. #452 is an example of him being more of a loose cannon (taking a break because being mad at Mara pretty much immediately), as is his exchange with me over how he's treating Mara ("oh, are you trying to get me to tunnel her?") and his rant about people making him explain things early and ruining everything that he's attempting to do in the game. I liked his response to me when he did form his townread on Mara; he was extremely smug about it and had a whole "this is how it's done" air about him which reminds me strongly of his towngame (one of the things that pulled me off him eventually in We the Purple is how damn smug he sounded). I also thought that the series of posts where he says he's trying to be less emotive this game to fight with DOMO later was pretty damn town; he gave the excuses for why he wouldn't be as fiery as his usual town game and then commenced being as fiery as his usual towngame. I also thought that choosing to make his big push on the PR type gives him town brownie points; more likely Generic would spot the softclaiming and kill it during the night as opposed to make a full charge at it.

I feel much more comfortable upgrading pieguyn than I do the other two simply because pie's scumgame has a much smaller range than the other two have, and I simply can't see pie going from two games where generally he got scared to drive his pushes through pretty quickly and never came close to hitting the genuine notes he's hitting here to his play in this game. Even based on his push on Sakura alone here compared to Touhou uPick is town town town.

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

My main issues are really with the strong town read on pie and the non town read on bro.

The comment you make about bro not being like either scum game you were with him in should have been the full stop because no offense to bro but he doesn't seem t like the type to get very self aware and meta change.
And pie continues to do things that have me questioning the motives. Only gets aggressive at opportune times, disappears when focus falls on him...

But one thing that has me doubting now is that from a nacho reads list I expect a few curveballs... And you seem to have them and in the places I thought you might have them.

Really the only thing my vote hang on after revising this is why did the SSK wagon suddenly get hot when you were on a two count.

Who is optimal lynch today casso if not you? I mean for good scum find, most information... Etc.

[Generic]

Messed that up. Wanted to put the quotes in spoilers. Sorry for the wall.

[Generic]

Oh, and koreanBBQ as strong town?

Curveballs are one thing, I can't understand the mindfuck you are pulling with that one though.

[Generic]

Pie, that's not a ringing endorsement from you.

I don't trust you altogether, much like you KBBQ will post something very town and then go the other way. His current defence on casso now he is lead wagon is a concern.

In fact, several of you have now come out in defence of casso, I have thrown it out there but give me the best alternative. I don't want a town casso lynched but this feels like a scum hydra. But that is not a certainty read because it relies on others being scum...

Fuck this game, I will wait got responses from casso/KBBQ/pie/anyone else defending casso right now.

In fact, f16, I want you to talk to me here, give me what you are seeing from the game state at this moment in time, I want guidance and you have yet to have input with me.

[Generic]

sry for confusion, I'm fine with a casso lynch. I still prefer SAD but if not I'd be very ok with casso

I just wanna know if I'm missing smth re: BBQ. GIF has like never been this town ever and his effort level in this game has been way higher than what I'm used to from him, and Nero feels town bc there were some questions he asked and points he made I really liked, although that's kind of gut

thoughts on SAD?

I can't comment on GIF after spy party where I scum read him snd he dc read me and we were both town.

I have been close to voting SAD a few times but ironically it's when he isn't whining and is being more of a dick about things that I actually think he might be town.

There are people like SSK, casso and bert I trust less than SAD. PoE alone makes him less of a priority but he's not off the table until someone like DOMO clears him or he provides a more compelling set of town posts.

[Generic]

* I can't comment on GIF after spy party where I scum read him and he scum read me and we were both town.

[Generic]

fwiw if Casso is town then SAD is scum

also, if Tammy is good at reading casso that might explain the tammy kill 0.0

tammy is good at reading 75% of this playerlist. we all benefitted from her death.

Wow.

Just, wow.

That's one hell of a slip.

vote desperado

[Generic]

Are you sure that's a scumslip?

I'm not sure of anything in this shit heap of a day, but I'm reading it as one.

[Generic]

Are you sure that's a scumslip?

I'm not sure of anything in this shit heap of a day, but I'm reading it as one.

do you disagree with my assessment?

Assessment of tammy?

I think the fact she can read so many of you is an asset if true. Her inability to read me is a reason we fall out so often, but you know that one desp it's happens between us too.

Only here you have been far more sedate. It's been unnerving.

[Generic]

a town flip would not be a disaster because his wagon is so interesting.

What would a Nacho town flip tell you?

That SSK is probably town too, and thus doc. Also, that BRO, generic and bert all look dodgy for sheeping me as I tried to muster up votes for you.

Considering what we went through for me to firstly trust your opinions, secondly understand your opinion and thirdly agree with your opinion... Go fuck yourself DOMO.

[Generic]

Generic, you still haven't danced with me like you promised you would.

You have me for an hour, I thought I had mentioned a few things but have not been back for the responses.

Why have you not done your usual nacho? You piss all over theories, tunnel people you think are scum, and more often than not pull a result.

Remember WE THE PURPLE? tammy fucked up her read on me just for a change, you decide to intervene when you suddenly pulled your head out your arse and saw I was very much town and FUCKING RIGHT on who was scum, and we won.

Here? You are more like newbie 1391. Hiding and tapping away a people without much conviction.

Where's the heart? Cos if I have to I will personally rip it from your chest and feed it to you. Desperado was a bus then was he?

[Generic]

fwiw if Casso is town then SAD is scum

also, if Tammy is good at reading casso that might explain the tammy kill 0.0

tammy is good at reading 75% of this playerlist. we all benefitted from her death.

Wow.

Just, wow.

That's one hell of a slip.

vote desperado

I want to lynch this now :/

Get in line.

And such a bold statement without the fucking vote. Never had you down as a pussy bro. Testing the water to see who will join you?

[Generic]

Hi Gen

Has Nacho impressed you on Wingate Purple levels today

Hi bert,


Im all over the place right now both with thought process, who is thinking they can have a shot next at me, and working out the best lynch without looking a dick.

Basically I want a strong scum chance or collateral damage if wrong. Casso I think is scum still but I will always be hesitant to see a player I know to work well with me in latter game stages be gone and leave me with my own chaos.

Prime example, WE THE PURPLE. Much like you in wingate bert (hence another reason I don't want you gone right now) nacho picked up that I was town and might actually be on to something. Notice how in both those games I had the scum found but as ever fucked up the case building, working on little bits I see and gut calls. And then you fought the case in wingate, in WE THE PURPLE Nachotammy made a fucking good case that ended Cabd's chances of getting me mislynched.

Right now desp who I have a lot of respect for has simply not been himself. People happily right that off as far too obvious but that's the emperors new clothes as far as im concerned.

Then theres this shit about writing it off as a grammar fuckuo, when at the very least pressure being applied is a good thing to put him on the spot and see how he reacts. Give a player the benefit of the doubt or even time to make excuses and it wont be genuine but it will be wifom. But if they are genuine it will show. Look at DOMO. we went to the edge me and him and he is the towniest fucker in this for me right now.

I will dance with you all if I have to but while im in this mood im making the waves.

I watched a tv show called the IT crowd earlier. A character in it says one of the greatest lines ever. im going to borrow it now for this hour I am with you:

"I came to drink milk and kick ass... and ive just finished my milk"

[Generic]

Generic, you still haven't danced with me like you promised you would.

You have me for an hour, I thought I had mentioned a few things but have not been back for the responses.

Why have you not done your usual nacho? You piss all over theories, tunnel people you think are scum, and more often than not pull a result.

Remember WE THE PURPLE? tammy fucked up her read on me just for a change, you decide to intervene when you suddenly pulled your head out your arse and saw I was very much town and FUCKING RIGHT on who was scum, and we won.

Here? You are more like newbie 1391. Hiding and tapping away a people without much conviction.

Where's the heart? Cos if I have to I will personally rip it from your chest and feed it to you. Desperado was a bus then was he?

That's the second time you've invoked that newbie despite there being absolutely no similarities between the two games. In that game, I knew I was sunk when my scum partner was lynched, and I knew that there was only a tiny tiny way that's would be able to pull off the win because of "that dude is fucking crazy" factors. In this game, there are five seals on every page and my "usual" is to the right of every one.

How about I point to your misguided early attack on me, your immediate back off when you realised I wasn't low hanging fruit and your attempt to bus your teammate? can I point to those, especially if someone like desperado flips scum?
Because you have pulled your punches this game, that's how it feels to me and im used to a nacho with almost as much front as me... who took your fucking bite, is it being paired with thor or are you just scum?

And if you are so embarrassed by that as the example, give me a fucking scum game of yours I can read and contrast.

[Generic]

your attempt to bus your teammate?

I'm still waiting on someone... idk, maybe you. To point out why this is busing rather than TvS or TvT?

Because that game has finished and he did try to bus his teammate, a tactic that bought him town cred.

Why question this now when it was proven?

[Generic]

Why question this now when it was proven?

Because I've been technically absent from the game for most of D2?

The way he pushed people in Marketplace Mafia it's way different than here, if it's other game then idk what you're talking about.

On the one hand both Nacho and Thor are a very strong asset to town if they are town, so I can see scum going for this possibility to get them mislynched.

On the other hand if they're scum they'll live for a long while and eventually they'll leave traces.

If they want to bus their partners let them do it? We get a scum flip anyway.

If they are town then they'll also find scum coz both Thor and Nacho are pretty strong players.

I don't see any reason for them to be lynched today.

I don't understand how you, when im voting desperado because I think he could be scum, and I see casso pushing desp as a main scum suspect after a lot of suspicion on his shoulder and I also happen to suspect casso to be scum, would question why I think its bussing?

What exactly are you asking me? why cant one of them be town? theres a chance either or both are town, but why the fuck carry on playing if I don't suspect SOMEONE?

its a pointless thing to question, I don't trust either of them, so I consider one bussing the other and when asked why im using a specific scum game of nachos as a reason to suspect him that was part of the relevance.

[Generic]

Bert...
why are you ignoring me?

[Generic]

Why don't you trust casso then? I've had a fairly strong townread on them that only faltered like once.

Read my response to nacho. This isn't the nacho I expect, with a swagger and determination to see a scum read swing. And I couple that with the 'thor said it' get out clause to any inconsistency to be rather convenient, along with the timing of the SSK wagon against theirs.

But I still have doubts. I just find his lack of bite even when I exchange words with him a bit shitty.

Tell me why he is town

[Generic]

I liked your #5027 and am satisfied with it.

Right well in that case, I want a town pal that isn't DOMO. No offence to him but his tonfoil hat is bigger than mine and its getting tiring trying to read his posts.

But I cant wingate this one up with you bert cos I don't trust you. Your actions have been off, they just haven't been off like desperado and nacho... but you are still in the ballpark with them there.

That's the main thing im hating about this game. Only person ive been able to see familiar ground from is mara and she has pissed off and left me alone in this. there are you bert, nacho, desperado, tammy, mara and to a lesser extent hana that I have a feel for in terms of approaches/mindsets/attitude towards games. Tammy isn't here, nacho, you and desp are acting weird and im left having to figure out players like pie and DOMO on my own.

But on the bright side bert I haven't randomly claimed my role, so im improving

[Generic]

But I cant wingate this one up with you bert cos I don't trust you.

You didn't trust me in Wingate either until the bitter end. Same with Purple. Where was this undivided passion to work with other players when I played with you in Purple or Wingate?

its always there, I just also have ridiculous mistrust of everybody. Short of being cleared it takes a lot for me to trust someone. In we the purple nacho had to be an unkillable PR creator and I STILL wasn't trusting him fully

Mara I would trust in this because she has 'colo' telled for me. play another 6 or 7 games with me and I will be able to do the same for you. Right now though you merely suck. but the game is young and we are both still alive so lets see where we get this time.

I trusted you just before dying,,, so maybe that's why bert... you are a death wish

[Generic]

Eventually, the tide will win. Every post I make is a wave crashing against the beach of the scumteam; I guarantee there will be a hell of a whiplash against all the silence that's currently around me because no one is going to look at this lynch and go "meh, he deserved it".

THIS is the nacho I used to love. Why have I had to request his presence to see that attitude come through?

And as for your point about people not stepping up lkike you would have wanted, that's why I have been wanting this. Twice I have tried to engage with you to see what you have in you, and twice circumstance stopped any interaction. As for the rest that's part of what feels off, I haven't seen the rutting stags checking eachother out in this beyond my own little bubble, so are you blaming them rather than you?

BRO has recently shown he will throw out a wide vague net to allow him to point a finger of suspicion on someone yet not get his hands dirty to do it. That's leaves a shitty taste in the mouth.

[Generic]

When I have ever had problems fighting?

But I take exception to 'picking' a fight. Just because someone acts like a fucking idiot doesn't mean I set out to throw down.

[Generic]

I suppose. I wish you'd have let him answer that. But I still find it weird because I don't feel like I benifitted from tammy's death, we'd be better off if she were still alive, so I don't see how that mindset is town.

As has been pointed out this is roughly 10 million miles from being a slip; in fact I almost like it b/c I'd expect scum to avoid that wording slash think more carefully about it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

Not as confident as I once was here, but I like it better than anything else.

Why not Desp, Cephrir?

I had a light townread on him but would vote him over you if that's what it comes down to. However, from my experience with him this game is so out of character that I have to think apathetic town. I'd be more likely to lynch Muffin, his counterpart, who I've seen be apathetic elsewhere.

Do you see parallels between his hydra play in Faraday's uPick and this game as a solo? If so, how

I see more parallels to his normal scum game than I do to his hydra play in ASOIAF. In both games I remember playing against Desp as scum (Wingate and Xenogears), he's had fits of activity but eventually fell completely below the surface. Here it's fairly similar; he's still pushing cases and he still has cases, but there's no effort to sort anything out or step it up at all even though a few people he feels are scum are completely under the radar in the consensus.

I actually literally don't think Desp could be playing less like he did in ASOIAF... making Bert's post kind of weird...

fwiw if Casso is town then SAD is scum

also, if Tammy is good at reading casso that might explain the tammy kill 0.0

tammy is good at reading 75% of this playerlist. we all benefitted from her death.

Wow.

Just, wow.

That's one hell of a slip.

vote desperado

You've just jumped from a decent townread to almost deserving a bus.jpg

He's been creating a theory where I coach SSK into intentionally acting scummy in order to take the heat off me (instead of reiterating the original push on him) and his entire case on me is based on that and how more people aren't currently voting me. And then when I point out that the basis of his case (scum aren't jumping on Nacho, thus Nacho is scum) is wrong, he accuses me of not scumhunting and doesn't actually address anything that I brought forward.

afaik he had more on you than this. iirc he did before and he certainly does now. someone tell me if I'm wrong plz

If he had more on me, what is it?

also, explain your zmuffin read? I don't get it. looking through your ISO I remember stuff like this

I measured to the 26th. Site downtime hasn't affected anyone else incredibly significantly, so I didn't think that it affected you that horribly. I think the difference is still important even when considering holidays.

but now it say his excuses for apathy are valid, and then also say it's "not what you'd expect from town muffin", when said apathy was iirc p much the whole reason for this. explain why the flip flop plz. and if that's not it then what other reservations are you having about him?

I agree that I was probably being a little bit too harsh in 4394 with Muffin earlier apathy. I have explained why I don't really think that an apathetic Muffin in this playlist is a townMuffin, but basic reasoning is that he usually enjoys town more than scum unless he has VIs to sort through, which frustrate him. In this game, there are no VIs and so I would expect him to enjoy sorting through all of this, but there's no sign of anything in his ISO. Where has Muffin actively scumhunted in this game? What has he contributed? Nothing, nothing. And I am completely aware that he can contribute more as either alignment, but I don't see why he hasn't contributed more here considering the usual complaints and obstacles aren't in place. Before, it was site downtime and holidays which is an "okay, fair enough". Now site downtime is done with, holidays are over... Why isn't Muffin stepping up?

Yes, this. On the other hand he was pretty apathetic in Fire Emblem too.

Nachos to disingenuous in the past few pages

Vote: Casso

Kaboom. Lollapalooza

What? How? Bert why are you making me doubt you =(

fwiw if Casso is town then SAD is scum

also, if Tammy is good at reading casso that might explain the tammy kill 0.0

tammy is good at reading 75% of this playerlist. we all benefitted from her death.

Wow.

Just, wow.

That's one hell of a slip.

vote desperado

I want to lynch this now :/

Get in line.

And such a bold statement without the fucking vote. Never had you down as a pussy bro. Testing the water to see who will join you?

This reaction sucks. Get in line? There wasn't a line until this post. That makes this whole post sound like fake aggression to me.

Why don't you trust casso then? I've had a fairly strong townread on them that only faltered like once.

Read my response to nacho. This isn't the nacho I expect, with a swagger and determination to see a scum read swing. And I couple that with the 'thor said it' get out clause to any inconsistency to be rather convenient, along with the timing of the SSK wagon against theirs.

But I still have doubts. I just find his lack of bite even when I exchange words with him a bit shitty.

Tell me why he is town

Oh please. You think they're lying about who posted what in a game with several players who can very easily tell them apart? Please.

Heh.

Nacho deserves a gold star for effort this game, that's for sure. Regardless of alignment or whether he dies or not.

Oddly enough, I've only seen this much effort from him once before! I wooooonder what game you've apparently read I could poooosssibly be referring to?

Same tired old shit cephrir.

Sounds fake? Come back when you have something original.

And yet another fucking pussy post. You got a vote, threatening to wave it at me does little more than make me point out you are a pussy.

I literally don't care what you think of my reaction to desperado. The fact it came AFTER several of you lost your mind that anyone would dare put pressure on desp over it didn't bother me and I still made that call, so now you and bro want to see who else might want to wagon me before commiting to a fucking action and I'm supposed to do what? Apologise? Row the line wih the wagon you prefer? Lol.

Crawl back under your rock cephrir.

[Generic]

I've seen the Nacho factor in this game before, so idk what Generic's going on about.

He might as well be the one who's busing Des and depcting you as busing so he can easily trade Desp for you in a way to take down a strong town player.

Tho first i'd need to see Desp flip.

Who's the he and the you there?

[Generic]

VOTE: generic

At last you grew some balls.

Your turn bro.

[Generic]

By the way, if you say you were reaction testing, I'm calling bullshit and voting you more.

Oh look, closing the door. Why am I not surprised.

You are atypical cephrir, I've seen your species before. Thanks for playing.

[Generic]

I didn't think you would understand. It's mafia game theory, you have shown nothing to make me believe you have a clue.

Closing the door - to pre empt what the person you are arguing with will post next to spin such a response as scummy. Generally seen as a scum tactic because of the nature of its purpose, to promote your opponent as scummy by creating a supposed template of how a scum player would respond.

In other words, trying to paint me into a corner for your own personal gain in the arguement.

Maybe you need a mentor cephrir.

[Generic]

Please, tell me more about how you're so good at this game while calling something a town player is doing a scum tactic.

You can babble about scum tactics all you want, and since I seem to have guessed your response correctly I suppose that's pretty much all you felt you could do. At the end of the day, I have a town role PM, so I don't care and in fact have only confirmed my suspicions that you're an idiot.

Of course, I made that guess because your response was to patently retarded I couldn't imagine what else you would say except "lol jk backing out". I daresay you probably made the original post in the hopes you would get to say exactly what you've said thus far. My only question is why you'd make this random attack in presumably an attempt to lynch me (a very lynchable player, especially now that Nacho won't be as likely to stand up for me after the conclusion of asoiaf; and anyone can see I'm rather weak at defending myself just from this thread) now, unless it's to stop the desperado wagon.

When did I say it was a reaction test?

I had to goad you into voting me, and when you finally crumbled because you were in focus you attempted to close the foot not once, but twice.

The fact you failed makes it even more pathetic.

But go tell me more about how you are town. It's such a lovely story.

[Generic]

*close the door.

Love you iphone

[Generic]

Oh, and the 'woe is me, I'm such a victim' schtick... Lol

[Generic]

Oh, now I'm crumbling. Interesting, I don't feel very crumbly. Apparently you think getting a vote is some sort of victory though. I didn't vote you because you told me to. I voted you because 5058 legitimately convinced me you're scum.

I would preemptively laugh about how certain you apparently are I'm scum (even though you aren't voting me, lol), but you obviously are one of those massive-ego "oh he was bad town and deserved it" types, so I won't bother.

You don't feel very crumbly but you do feel like a victim who is so lynchable.

And I'm merely suspicious of you, like I'm suspicious of about four other people in this. but by the way on the one hand you are declaring you have me read as scum and know what I'm going to do next but then in the next breath you are this poor little low hanging fruit I don't know whether to laugh or vomit.

You wanna play AtE to avoid being seen as scummy while trying to sell my wagon you are better off WAITING to see if people are suspicious of you. You are too eager to cover tracks, it's embarrassing.

[Generic]

But yes, it's pretty obvious you are deliberately trying to make a scapegoat out of me. I'm surprised you're pretending the contrary.

Scapegoat for who exactly?

You seem to see a mythical wagon on you in your head. You attacked me, or are you just a little slow?

[Generic]

Again cephrir. You are voting me. A vote I pushed you for.

You then proceed to try and close the door on me, when you started the attack on me. All because you didn't like my vote on desp.

You then rant about how I'm trying to wagon you to protect desp... Eh?

Then you rant how I'm picking on you cos you are an easy lynch... I'm still not voting for you.

Then you accuse me of making up things YOU ARE ACTUALLY POSTING, and then hope I feel stupid for lynching you and finding out you are town?

Just the one point here. Your hope that I feel stupid, that would suggest I'm town. But you said I'm scum, so which is it?

[Generic]

But yes, it's pretty obvious you are deliberately trying to make a scapegoat out of me. I'm surprised you're pretending the contrary.

Scapegoat for who exactly?

You seem to see a mythical wagon on you in your head. You attacked me, or are you just a little slow?

I dunno, it sure looks like you're trying to save Desp though. You sure are putting a lot of energy into derailing him while voting him. Nice bus.

There is always functionally a wagon on me. Getting lynched is my MO. If I survive to see Day 4, historically, I'm probably scum.

I have already been wagoned this game and pretty much no one feels better than lukewarm about me. It wouldn't be hard. It looks to me like you wanted to try this with Bro but realized either than he's a better player than me and wouldn't be as easy, or that he's not here enough to hand you the correct response in an appropriate amount of time.

If you think this isn't you attacking me, I can't help you, but you could try a psychiatrist.

Again, you attacked me for voting desperado. My vote remains on desperado. You brought him up as the person I'm saving, yet I left a LARGER FUCKING WAGON to push his up.

This feels like deflection. You chainsawed in, and now want to make out I'm the one trying to save desperado?

I'm the only one calling you out on this obvious shit you are pulling cephrir, you are trying to play the victim when no one else is suspecting you. Are you new?

And as for BRO, I've never left him. Notice how I kept goading him with you? He's just not here and you thought you could join the attacks on me and hope I wouldn't bite back.

As you put it, hi I'm generic, your really haven't read my posts.

[Generic]

It was also about 4000 posts ago... Got anything more recent you want to use to reason that theory with? Cos even that doesn't mean why and it's from day 1.

[Generic]

*that doesn't mean shit

I have absolutely no idea why my phone changed the word to why... Maybe I used up all my allowable swear words on this device!

[Generic]

Hydra diss. is particularly unreliable in terms of how genuine it is when the heads don't sign their posts.

[Generic]

VOTE: Desperado

Well, at least the stupidity has given me some scum reads, but alas, it seems I shan't get to vote them today, on principle or otherwise.

Bert, if you can sell me the casso wagon over the desperado wagon I will move my vote.

Away you go.

[Generic]

And I was going to comment on how ludicrous that move of vote was btw but decided I simply couldn't be bothered anymore...

Just forgot up knock off the quote

[Generic]

Love the choice of photo to emphasise the point.

[Generic]

What's your read on them bert?

Remove their pushing on you from the equation.

[Generic]

My vote will move if bert (or GM now) can sell me casso as scum over desperado.

Bert ignored this request to my knowledge. But desperado appears to be on shutdown. Last game I accused him of being scum I think we argued for two pages. Here? He seems to have given up.

[Generic]

Generic, which of the players in this game have you played with before besides Mara? Do you have any strong reads on any of them?

Played with bert (town read), nacho (scum read), natirasha (scum lean), tammy (town read), GIF (slight scum lean), F16 (town lean), mafiaSSK (scum lean), Pieguyn (scum lean), Sakura hana (town lean), desperado (town lean, but unsettled by his lack of involvement).

I think I've also played in a game with BROseidon but he is null in this one to me.

Generic, why don't you sell it yourself? What has changed since this stage of the game to make desp scum and casso not?

fwiw I like this post, these reads look legit and solid.

That was half the game ago, and desperado has worked his way onto my scum concerns (pretty sure I've mentioned him a few times regarding this) and regardless of what the rest of you want to say I felt there was something in his slip. I wanted to apply pressure accordingly and what he has done is not really try. That's either defeatist or trying not to give away any information now he's sunk.

Casso is still on the table, but he has argued competently and seems to have a few others town reading him so that does need to be considered when making the call.

Why do I need to sell myself another wagon when I'm happy with both but feel casso at least looks to be trying but desp doesn't.

[Generic]

I can't imagine why that would worry you?

People are going to argue with others' townreads.

For instance, there is a Casso wagon, and I'm pretty sure *everyone* on his wagon can't be scum.

I can't imagine why that would worry you?

It worries me because generic has given reason to at least have those scumreading him to reconsider, but you seem unwilling. Looks to me like you're keeping your mislynch options open. I must've said three times during your little discussion with generic that it's town-town, but you showed no sign of relenting. I could understand you being cautious if I were looking dodgy, but I'm as conftown here as I was in xenoblade. I might be wrong, of course, but you should at least consider my comments sincere.

Cephrir has been keen to try and link me and desp and claim I was trying to derail that wagon using him as the scapegoat.
This is the wagon he wouldn't join himself on that very same logic to provide me with the only vote of my wagon with only a few days to go, only to then leap off it when he thinks I'm not about and place it on desperado because he sees that as the way things are going.

I tell you now cephrir, if desp flips scum you are my top suspect. Tactically makes sense you would want to discredit me, try and put focus on me to slow the desp wagon and then bus him now you see it not going away.

You deflected your own tactics onto me. And very clumsily.

[Generic]

You knew I wasn't getting lynched yet you voted for me, made out I was trying to shift focus from the wagon I stayed on and then the dry next day, not even that, you move your vote onto the same wagon as me with the excuse of the deadline. So less that a day before the deadline is ages away but suddenly you are compromise lynching?

You are a riot cephrir, next you will be telling me being a moron is a town tell for you.

[Generic]

P.S. I'm actually becoming town as shit right now, I know it sucks to watch that train roll away from you, but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches. Find another mislynch to push, I'm starting to think you may not get this one after all.

Oh I love a self meta player, do tell me more about what everyone is thinking.

[Generic]

You knew I wasn't getting lynched yet you voted for me, made out I was trying to shift focus from the wagon I stayed on and then the dry next day, not even that, you move your vote onto the same wagon as me with the excuse of the deadline. So less that a day before the deadline is ages away but suddenly you are compromise lynching?

You are a riot cephrir, next you will be telling me being a moron is a town tell for you.

Yes. I am a viable wagon. You are not.

I'm allowed to vote on principle, but I want my vote on Desp now because the competing wagons are close. I don't actually think he'll flip scum.

Being a moron is a Cephrir tell, but you're still scum.

P.S. I'm actually becoming town as shit right now, I know it sucks to watch that train roll away from you, but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches. Find another mislynch to push, I'm starting to think you may not get this one after all.

Oh I love a self meta player, do tell me more about what everyone is thinking.

Meta? Who said anything about meta?

If you don't think he will flip scum why did you spend the majority of our arguement claiming I was trying to shift focus from him onto you, and that I was bussing a teammate?

So you call me scum who is trying to shift focus from a player you think is town and is considered by many to be an asset when town into an easily lynchable player in yourself who has no votes on him? I like a challenge do I?

And as scum I'm apparently 'bussing' a town player?

Yeah, wonderful logic. If you are gonna try and billshit at least remember the shit you peddled previously.

[Generic]

So you are voting for a guy you think is town. At the same time one of your arguments (the main one in fact) is your belief I have been attempting to divert people from a wagon on said town player onto a guy who is self confessed very lynchable, suggesting your play is looking scummy. And all that is apparently me 'bussing' desperado.

Your such an asset cephrir. Minus the 'et'.

[Generic]

My vote will move if bert (or GM now) can sell me casso as scum over desperado.

Bert ignored this request to my knowledge. But desperado appears to be on shutdown. Last game I accused him of being scum I think we argued for two pages. Here? He seems to have given up.

Mmk, I'll do a small comparison when I have time.

Curious, you asked Bert but not Muffin. Why?

I was talking to bert at the time, and I don't understand muffin.
I've also had experience with bert so it was a look at him at the same time to gauge his input.

[Generic]

I don't get pieguyns post, I thought he was already voting desperado.

[Generic]

Way to ruin a reaction test guys.

It was about as obvious as faking a day vig.

[Generic]

vote: Desp

\o/

Yeah, I was already voting Desp and don't believe in fake hammers.

See my fake hammer:

Vote: Desperado

Guys, Desp just got totally hammered guys. Watch out. Sakura, this is like such a buss.

Get ready guys, this hammer is fake. Let's all fake hammer Desp for lulz.

Just so you know bert, this post is a shocker. Coming off the wagon I raised an eyebrow to, but the way you returned to it feels very forced.

[Generic]

vote SSK

I know geists doesn't want to rush the day but I have had him pegged as scum and voted for him two days running and was drawn away from it so no more.
My vote doesn't affect things geists but much like you consider it rested there while you all do what you want to do.

I'm gonna look at interactions made with him and progress it from there.

[Generic]

Why BRO?

[Generic]

Oh I see, PoE

[Generic]

Casso has a chance of being replaced with koreanbbq.

Everyone else is obvtown.

Indulge me please, what made Pieguyn obvtown?

[Generic]

Oh I see, PoE

This was reasonable to you?

I haven't decided yet what SADs tactics are and with SSK trolling the thread, bert AtE posting and the reading back I'm doing I was putting that one in the 'for later scrutiny' category.
I also began to pick at it by questioning why pie is obvtown to him, and this was before I got to cephrir. So I didn't accept it as it was no, I just merely wasn't ready for tearing deeper into it.

BROs response was also interesting because he seemed to just shrug it off. As you elude to the reason to being rather flimsy and heavily reliant on other factors he seemed less concerned than me.

[Generic]

I can see merits to both arguments.

Although I suspect an ulterior motive, cephrirs comment about morale does have value. This game needs a scum lynch to give us a foundation to build from. Until we see a flip we cannot start using VCA or links via interaction. The counter argument is of course that SSK is trolling so has essentially revealed he is scum. But his involvement in this game represents potential wifom, and if we choose someone else and they are town he is still there with a vote to quick hammer immediately.

The flip side which f16 has championed loudest is we have SSK in the bag, and can still do analysis surrounding him but with the added bonus of a scum player available for compromise lynch should we find ourselves close to deadline.

unvote

I personally think he is the best lynch for today after slipping through the net twice, but I don't want to allow him and scum buddies of his the opportunity to end the day before we are ready to.

[Generic]

I'm not sure why SSK gave up; it's not like we'd expect his protect to work anyway.

If it helps things along I looked at norlkaz and in their initial posts they produce a few revisions of a hardly explained scum team prediction with no mention of SSK. They begin mentioning and defending SSK after the claim.

After that very little mention of him and a focus on casso scum before desperado is also introduced, having only expressed any suspicion on him once in an association with Pieguyn as part of an either/or with muffinman.

Then recently there is this:

I'm not sure why SSK gave up; it's not like we'd expect his protect to work anyway.

I don't like this. I don't get it either. It's why I looked back at norlkaz.

[Generic]

Double quoted there.

[Generic]

Its a matter of timing. Theoretically he stepped in to derail the wagon on SSK which given we now see SSK is scum who's given up pretending he should be town by the assumption scum wouldn't risk their cover to spare another.
It's wifom because why wouldn't he perform a double bluff if he is experienced, it's no different to the theory that Sakura hana faked a blacklist tell and AtE meta.

I had written him off as low down the PoE for that very action until I saw that post. It bothers me a lot because he had defended SSK yet we now have heavy suspicion he's scum and he sort of shrugs and asks a weird question with no detail or premise to expand to a larger theory.

[Generic]

Lol, stole top spot from empire!

[Generic]

Given it's not that similar, I have to question why you would volunteer this information.

[Generic]

Given it's not that similar, I have to question why you would volunteer this information.

Then why do you think they would?

I'm at a loss beyond the obvious concern for someone else bringing it up first and so in a very self aware move they jump in with it regardless of relevance.

However,

I always do this, generic-san. As soon as a game ends I bring it up in others as a courtesy for players that meta-read.

If this is true then it's not something that seems as disconcerting. But I don't know how true that is. It was a good response to my short comment, so that works in their favour.

[Generic]

Bert. Initially I gave you a lot of town credit for the generic brand 'RL has happened, so I'm pissing all over the game' post.

But it's coincided with mr cheese suddenly stopping his trolling and you now seem to be weirdly inserting yourself into everything and being a lower level pain in the ass. And that is worrying.

Now me and you can go toe to toe in a shit slinging contest I ya like, but if you wanna make this a serious chat lets get out the notebooks and have ourselves a Holmes and Watson moment (you can be Watson, I am too abnormal to not be Holmes).

Three names, lets here reads and why...

Cephrir, muffinman, BRO... GO!

[Generic]

vote bert

Don't like a naked vote so consider that a vote for removing geists eyebrows.

Hypocricy I can accept is not a scum tell. The bullshit that came in to excuse it I'm afraid removed hypocricy from the table. You claim it's gut then you play a breadcrumb game... Very uneasy about you bert.

[Generic]

Everyone.

I've just had a phone call and an update on some already sad family related news and it's unsettled me to a point that I am gonna need a day or two away.

My head just won't be right and it will mean I will ruin the enjoyment factor for the rest of you. So my sincere apologies and to the moderator please place me as V/LA until Sunday and I will update you on my return if i come back sooner.

Speak soon all.

[Generic]

Mara, you seem to have decided to take the exact opposite stance on almost everyone f16 has a lean of scum on.

What's your read on f16 and who are your top scum reads?

Has anyone found out why bert and cephrir were forcibly removed from the game? They were two people I had suspicions on and suddenly they are out, it feels off.

[Generic]

Prophylaxis replaces Bert.

Hello Proph!

Looks like you get to play with the unrestricted version of me now


KBBQ, are you trying to earn town cred by the self vote or is there another reason for it with only one vote on you? Cos to me it comes across as extremely forced.

[Generic]

You want to throw a tantrum at the master of them?

Ok, let's break it down. I never read your comment how Titus is selling it. Titus replaced a scumread of mind in cephrir. I'm not voting for you. You earned town cred day 1 for a self vote. Suddenly one person uses ridiculously poor logic to vote for you. No one else follows onto that wagon. You cry and self vote.

Yeah. Forced.

Hanas town read on Titus I find hilarious as it is, because you can't possibly fake not knowing that on day 1 mcmaraca claimed scum must have day talk, can you?
In fact it was done in such an obvious way and hana felt such a need to highlight it it feels like two people going out of their way to pull a not so subtle gambit.
I gave you a lot of town cred hana for the defeatist attitude I can relate to from games like wingate where I felt the same way as town. And I don't want to believe someone would want up win a game of mafia so much they would stoop so low with a tactic like that.
So I can only put it down to you easily accepting things at face value, but I never had you down as so bloody naive.

[Generic]

Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam...

But seriously KBBQ, Nero always seems to trouble me when he posts and you (while rather fuckig irritating) save his ass with more logical angles. I agree with your point that it being forced suggests the sledgehammer method of making a point, but it's still stupid as an action given Titus as a whole hasn't led me to read town on her.
Yes, I may be biased because of the slot but you have just reiterated the point I already made about Titus just happening to drop in the day talk comment and the wifom added to that.

But are you just riding my point? You are the bi mystery in this game to me because one head is scum and the other is leaning town... Are you 3rd party?

[Generic]

@Everyone, who are the 3 most likely scum in this group?

Casso the King of Seals

pieguyn

BROseidon
Norlkaz

Ser Arthur Dayne

zMuffinMan

Titus

There, I gave you 3 levels of strength in reads.

And with that i think titus just jumped from scum to very town for me.

One comment and you 180 them?

And how hard is it really to see mcmaraca declare a day chat for scum (bearing in mind I believe that was in day 1 which Titus was apparently reading) and post ignorantly to that information?

It's like me posting comments to you saying things like 'it's not like you threatened to quit or anything when wagoned is it hana? If you had I would be townreading you'.

All they did was reference something already speculated in game as if they weren't aware of such a potential factor. That's not hard to fake and the fact you 180'd on it is a bit simplistic to say the least.

[Generic]

I am gonna see what both Titus and norlkaz have to say before I make a voting call on eithers wagon. But I'm favouring a Titus lynch at present. Cephrir was scummy and Titus hasn't won me over at all.

[Generic]

Also, how sure are you about your read on KBBQ?

I feel pretty good about it. I want to talk with GiF about my reads before the day ends.

Yo

Yeh, so Titus scum? Her posts are reminding me a little of her replace-in to the asoiaf game. I want to have a look at the FEA replace-in, too, though.

Link to the game you mention please

[Generic]

Most of your attacks seemed to be on the line of town-Desp not apathetically letting you die but it wasn't a really strong point.

My initial push on Desperado was because he had largely faded away and I wanted to interact with him and see if I could firm up my read of him a bit. The response that I got back was "whee, OMGUS!" which didn't strike me as a town-Desp way to approach a read on me. We've played 10+ games together, we had either hydra'ed together by that point or talked a lot about it, and in all games, Desperado normally uses me as a sounding board and keeps me as an important part of his game when he plays, similar to ffery playstyle. His push on me without addressing anything I've posted or talking to me at all was weird as hell; it read like he was trying not to repeat the Xenogears mistake of not capitalizing on a Nacho-lynch when it was possible and not at all like he was approaching me or trying to read me. When my push on him intensified a bit, no response; townDesp when town gives

something

when he's pushed, but here, nothing.

It seemed like your case against zMuffinman was so much stronger and took up a lot more of your time.

I was at a brick wall with Muffin. I wasn't getting any traction, looked for something different instead.

You are defending Titus pretty hard based on mostly null-tells. There was nothing about her that I found town, at least not yet. Is this influenced by your Cephrir townread and are you giving her more of a benefit of the doubt due to her predecessor?

I find most of her posting null, but I still think the slot is town. I'm defending her so hard because GM's current case on her is composed entirely of null tells and Titus has a way of attracting wagons to herself.

Who are your best picks for a scumteam right now? What do you think of my assessment of Norl/Llamarble?

SAD-SSK-Muffin-BRO-Norlkaz, with one of Generic/Titus maaaaaaybe going into one of those slots but they seem pretty fucking town at the moment. My latest basis for reading Llamarble is give him plenty of room to town, which he simply hasn't done at all. I feel we will be in a great position after clearing out SAD-SSK and maybe Muffin, and if the whole "I will town later" and doing nothing of note continues to that point then I will switch out of "giving him room" mode and start lynching the hell out of him. I noted your meta on Cephrir but I don't think the "unnatural expression of surprise" point was a good one.

Nacho, Titus got past you in the asoiaf game. What do you see in her opening posts that makes you think this is not scum-Titus?

I thought Titus was scum for a good portion of the game (all of it?). I don't really have a good read on Titus at the moment, but Cephrir still seemed town.

Interesting, why has my name suddenly popped into reckoning for you?

[Generic]

@ Proph, I have a town read on ms marangal and I mentored her when she first started playing on our old site. If you want to discuss why you have a scum read her I will tell you where you have gone wrong because she is one of my stronger town reads.

Geists is technically clear currently because of DOMOs gun smith result, because they are either town or scum doc so the odds suggest town for he time being.

Beyond that I need to scrutinise you as much as possible because you replaced a suspect of mine. Wasn't a strong read because it was bert, but he was acting more oddly before he left the game.

The plus side is that I have an idea what to look for with you so let's play ball!

@ Titus, who says I care about meta? I utilise it when I have a strong knowledge of feeling about a person, but when I see tells or convenient/well timed responses or actions I delve a little deeper.
And you walked into a slot that thought I was an easy target, and when they realised I have teeth they resorts to "I'm such a victim" posting.
If your response to me is to sell me your meta with a qualifier that you don't believe in meta (what I like to call a trap door argument) then I'm not being sold.

[Generic]

Not quite what he did with me but it's similar mindset.
It depends how well he knows you, because by what you claim he took a stance that you would be a pack leader, saw potential opportunity when you were under suspicion to push that wagon but immediately backed off when he realised he would be the focus by you.
With me he seemed to think I would be low hanging fruit (why I am not sure) but then when he realised our argument would draw everyone's focus tried to make his wagon toxic by claiming he was very mislynchable.

I wanted to give Titus a chance. Still waiting to see her deliver something. Proph opened with some early thoughts, Titus seems to be sniping at current posts and making excuses. That's an immediate red flag.

That's me.

[Generic]

Can I just clarity on this dispute, KBBQ do you confirm or deny any sort of fake breadcrumbing of a vig role?

[Generic]

And I'm reading you two with interest at present.

Because to soft claim vig BEFORE the actual vig is known would be pathetic as scum because the real vig guns them down in the night.

However, the belief there is a scum doctor suddenly adds another dimension to this. In honour of DOMO I shall be donning the tin foil hat. If you have a scum doc and suspicions of a vig or SK in play, how do you best nullify that in night? Perhaps claim a role that an SK would aim at or a vig would know to be a lie and aim at you over and have he doc protect you. It forces the vig out into the open to counter claim you...

But now removing the tin foil hat there are two problems. 1. That single post is rather ambiguous in being proof of a vig breadcrumb (they are a hydra) and 2. The person pushing I this theory is not a strong townread.

One question KBBQ, with regards to hana on day 1 how in sync were the pair of you in reading her?

[Generic]

You were townreadin her after wanting to kill her?

Did you only sync up to a townread?

Pedit: you never have that theory though. You just kept repeating they soft claimed vig. And the big problem with the theory is not your alignment although it doesn't help, it's the fact that they are a hydra.

But I will get to that when KBBQ answers my last questions.

[Generic]

Had you synced to a scum read previous or just the town read there?

I am going somewhere with this I promise.

[Generic]

And there we finally get to my point.

Titus. Reread that post and consider two people in that one slot. Then tell me if a soft claim of vig is the only explanation.

[Generic]

Do you think he would have said "I have permission to kill Hana" instead of just keeping quiet and shooting me during the Night?
Titus i suggest you go back to FEA and ISO Nero.

Fuck you hana! Making the point in a tenth of the time and with far fewer words!

[Generic]

I'm happy voting Titus today, I'm more than happy with the banked scum lynch in SSK today, and on an outside bet SAD has potential links to players I haven't got a strong lean on as muffinman has remained on the peripheral while I focused on others.

Titus seems keen to stick to this KBBQ point rather than admit she may have misinterpreted. I don't testify to the argument that it's a town mentality to tunnel because it's such a closed point and she is struggling to shed the suspicion on the slot ceph left that she could be looking to seem commited to scum hunting while not actually having to move beyond a single incident on day 1. Feels more like hiding from the more important events than a pro town action to me.

And SAD does seem to go quiet when there's no major focus on him. Could be a coincidence but I am not a fan of coincidences.

I also feel norlkaz warrants more scrutiny, once again now that someone else has taken main focus they have slipped back into the shadows.

Geists, you were the first to champion taking our time today and it has certainly seemed productive, what are your thoughts on lynch options for today.

Me again.

At least I'm logging in mara

[Generic]

Why am I still on bert when he is no longer in the game?

unvote

[Generic]

or we could channel our inner BB Molla and pl the Bert slot for hammering Desp without a claim.

Are you being ironic there?

Or is that flat out hypocricy?

[Generic]

Did he refuse to claim even at L-1? I don't remember it going down like that, but if that's true SC are fucking morons.

But that's for post game. As to your bert case, I already have my concerns about the slot, but you are in luck with the replacement. He is someone I have a decent amount of experience playing in games with on MTGS and have also hydra'd with him. If Proph has inherited a scum a lot I will know. And part of it will be if he stays quiet for long periods of time...

So with regards to your post I can see where you are coming from although it's not exactly damning stuff, but I have my eye on what Proph goes from here.

[Generic]

* a scum slot I will know

[Generic]

SC was never given the opportunity to claim. He was quickhammerred. Can y'all please start making sense?

I have pointed out KBBQ is being a hypocrite. So I'm with you on this.

But to defend against it with utter bollocks doesn't strike me as alignment indicative, more the erratic nature of the hydra.

But still, KBBQ I would like you to prove you didn't just quick hammer SC like you are calling beet scummy for.

In the meantime, titus, can I get your current reads please.

[Generic]

Unvote
Vote: MafiaSSK

This day should probably end now. Now sure what to think on titus. Can't really decide between bad or scum, but I'm gonna give the slot the benefit of the doubt for now since I had a townread of Ceph.

That there is the post that has me leaning scum on SAD with more confidence.
The desire to push through the day, the soft defence of Titus with a qualifier that he was townreading ceph... Not a fan of that post at all.

@ Geists, I think F16 summed up my thoughts, I don't have anywhere near the same confidence in casso you seem to, I think hana for her odd thought process should be higher up your list and f16 should at the very least be a lean town cos his input as the game progresses is more detailed and probing.

Beyond that I think you have similar thought processes to me and you null pile has the remaining top suspects for scum your scum pile is lacking.

You also put a lot if faith in KBBQ, he is the one that concerns me although I cannot deny him a town lean especially after his response to my question.

[Generic]

If the days momentum is going into decline I will be voting SSK. Just a heads up to people like geists who wanted maximum use of the day phase.

[Generic]

If I could intervene for a moment, Proph is starting to join the front runners for scum. He despises drawing scum and tends to post very little due to a lack of motivation and concerns his dislike of being scum will stand out in his play.

Already being prodded is strike one right now.

[Generic]

People who are probably town:
Me
SH
F16
Geists
Mara?
GM?

IONO:
Pieguy
Generic (Haven't really looked at; slightly sketched out but can he fake his mad?)
SAD (don't remember)
Muffin
BBQ (just did round 1; inconclusive)

Probably a decent number of scum here:
Casso
Prophylaxis
Titus
COWBELL
SSK

But yeah, let's just do SSK. It will probably be easier for me to read for real when an actual choice is being made.

This list is interesting because you are more sure of geists than of the masons... And also more sure of f16 who to be fair to him has not blacklist telled, been gun Smithed or claimed a town PR.

And I think geists also pointed out the list does seem to follow public opinion. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

[Generic]

Prod received, posting sometime today.

18 hours later...

I told you Proph, I would be keeping an eye on you.

Strike two.

[Generic]

Hey Gen, what's your take on Titus and what do you think of her theory that i'm busing SSK and Bert/Proph slot.

I will be honest and say I zoned out of your argument, but I have and still do consider Titus to be scum.

She inherited cephs slot and I've already said why I suspected him. And even after giving her time to shoe me town play I haven't been impressed with her actions, again something I have commented on up to now.

And if what you say she is saying is true it's not changing my vote and I don't even see how that argument works out.

But we really need an SSK lynch today, do you not agree? Titus was always destined to be my main focus if I'm still here the next day.

[Generic]

*not changing my read.

It's been a long day.

[Generic]

Ok, this is getting tedious. And we all know this will just carry on again the next day so can we hammer SSK please and at the very least give ourselves a little morale boost, cos lord knows we need it.

All I'm seeing now is stuff that will take place with SSK dead anyway, geists I will give you til your next post to clarify if there is more to squeeze out of this day and then I'm throwing down my vote. And I believe that vote will make it L-1.

Vote count please empire.

[Generic]

SSK is the lynch, and he's at L-1 already it seems.

intent to hammer

[Generic]

Titus. You are tunneling.
I get it, you think she is scum. She thinks you are scum.

Now both take a step back. If either of you are scum do you seriously see the town person amongst you being killed?

The possible situations:
Both scum - neither will be the night kill.
One scum, one town - scum one won't kill town one as the effort is to push for a mislynch. And them being the night kill throws suspicion on the scum one between you.
Both town - you are pushing for each others lynch, I can't see a scum team wasting a shot on either of you.

So Titus, with the greatest of respect, stfu and use the rest if the time on this day phase to discuss your other scum reads. Consider Sakura hana as covered for now, ok?

Sorry, missed my point. The point there was, you will both get the chance to return to this billshit the next day. So you aren't really needing to rush all you can through under some concern of not getting to say it the next day.

Cos I'm pretty sure one of you us scum anyway, so it's almost certain you will both live through the night.

Fucking hydra slips.

Tis generic.

[Generic]

no it says she doesn't want to use cheap tactics to be townread. from what I could tell the "meta" she was referring to here is said fatalism + ATE. she doesn't wanna be townread bc of that, aka cheap tactics

Unfortunately, human nature is that we attribute certain tactics or actions to certain mjndsets.

And because of that my opinion of hana going forwards from this game rests on her flip. I believe her to be above a fake blacklist tell. Hence I have her as a townread.
Her subsequent play has strengthened that view, but I won't deny that it started there.

[Generic]

I think Proph is probably scum. I looked through Proph-games and saw that he was more active as town. I saw Generic mention the lurking and I wish you hadn't because if we let him be, we could have a larger sample of evidence to develop a read from. By letting him know that you'll be looking for lurking, it makes it easier for him to change that aspect of it.

Assuming Geists die tonight, Pieguyn, Generic, and KBBQ are solidly in my townbloc and I feel that we can agree on reads as well. Other town: GM, Mara, Sakura. Casso is in no man's land. I am thinking probably 5 scum. 4 with a vig seem too little. So, 4 scum from Norl, Titus, SAD, RC, Muffin, Proph.

Still waiting for Nachyllt make-up session. Hopefully it will be entertaining.

A couple of reasons f16, because inactivity alone would not be a good nor accurate scumtell, as he could genuinely be busy. And also I'm deliberately keeping him in focus and putting him on the spot because I know he hates being scum and therefore can be cornered into mistakes.

Right now I have a feeling which is all warm and fuzzy for the following scum team:

SSK, Titus, Proph and RC.

RC is a new addition due to the opening posts, especially given SSK has never claimed anything. He has self destructed but RC talks far too knowingly, is keen to see the day end and is not offering any other insight.

SAD and Norlkaz are in the 2nd for suspicion. Pieguyn through my listening to others steps to tier three with Casso and the muffinman. KBBQs handling of the Titus argument has me feeling a lot better about him.

[Generic]

* 2nd tier (as in levels of suspicion)

[Generic]

Rather than the melodrama, what about giving hard positions that are consistent with the fcts?

I already gave many stances
Casso, SAD, gm, geists, Mara are town.
You, SSK and Proph are scum.

Then, you seriously need to relook here. The scum team you are suggesting makes no plausible sense. We both came in and scumread each other immediately (well he is scum you are right on that). Would scum orchestrate a double replace bus? That doesn't make sense unless the scum team was boned. Given the mislynches and shots, that's far from the case. You are running from all signs shots and deaths point to SH scum and are trying to link m with your byddies.

Generic, it sounds like no matter what I would do, you were just going to scumread me for what Ceph did.

There wasn't a question there, merely a gripe that I may be tunnelling.

Lets have the chat though, I will stay open minded. Can you rephrase the question please, I don't understand what you are asking.

And KBBQ and hana, with the greatest respect stfu while Titus has her say to me. If you want to comment after then I will have that debate too, but for now she has requested my opinion.

[Generic]

Looks like cabd was correct about the day talk, although I have to admit I had to look up what an encrypter was :p

Anyway, time to get back to the hunt, now that the cheese man is out of the equation, and Edam sure was getting on my nerves...

...

I'll get my coat.

Titus, you posed comments to me at day end and I shall respond to it in more detail when I have time but I have explained where you are going wrong with this wrong theory about a soft claim and I don't out a lot of faith in VCAs. Recently I've seen a 10 person mislynch wagon which didn't contain a single mafia player... It's okay but not to rely on so heavily.

[Generic]

Whether she likes it or not it's Titus.

[Generic]

I just can't see the town in her play. She seems to focus on things that are either disproved or irrelevent, that feels like trying to avoid having to do any real hunting.

I thought I was gonna die last night, and it would have given me confirmation on my reads... But that was the ego more than anything I think. And also of course no use to the game as I wouldn't be in it anymore.

Why SAD over others?

[Generic]

Slow down!

Why are we fast lynching here?

Pedit: I believe scum find a nugget to focus on and stick with it to avoid having to pass comment on any scum buddies. So her focus on KBBQ feels like a tunnel to avoid having to get involved in anything else.

Still waiting I that SAD case BTW.

[Generic]

I promised this yesterday.

Vote: Sakura

And so I shall.

You could also be double the useful and vote SAD.

I'd rather vote Titus or Proph

Or you could tell me why SAD is scum.

Hana is obvtown

[Generic]

SAD is halfway to lynch and I've yet to see the case.

[Generic]

Actually a very good argument. But I still want to actually hear from SAD before I consider a vote in his direction.

Same with Proph, because Titus has reminded me of the empty promises.


Pedit: what Titus?

[Generic]

Still doesn't change the fact I want to hear from SAD.

[Generic]

We still haven't heard from f16, norlkaz, mara, GM, RC...

[Generic]

What does it matter if my vote is down now or later?

If you wanted intent up vote I've already said I had suspicions of SAD and f16s case was good.

[Generic]

Why hold my vote?

Cos it's you juggernauting the wagon.

[Generic]

And didn't she open in this very game declaring to us her meta?

vote titus

[Generic]

You sneaky bastard RC.

I'm the JK. Night 1 I targeted mcmaraca as I knew it wouldn't stop them doing anything and after a masons reveal I assumed they would be targeted. Night 2 I jailed SSK but that seemed to stop nothing.

Last night I jailed Titus. I wasn't going to out myself because I hoped I had stayed hidden, but if they have a rolecop that might be why they are gambiting here. I for know why cowbells would be the one to screw me over as opposed to Titus.

My vote stands which will hopefully prove in telling the truth, but I will happily lynch RC too.

[Generic]

Proph, you get to use your VCA you enjoy based on that reveal. Love a trigger happy scum team.

[Generic]

You generic is scum?

What is the matter with this game lately? How easily do you all take a gambit from someone?

At least on my flip you can lynch scum the next day, let's get this over with since you have all made your fucking minds up.

I mean no other results, no signs of that slot taking issue with the doc claim... Absolutely nothing. It's a joke.

[Generic]

I will happily lynch RC, but I'm acutely aware with two claims of JK the best way to prove I'm telling the truth is lynch Titus. I blocked her, there was no kill. I tried to make the subtle push that way but apparently the BETTER way to play it is to blurt out the most important role we have on the hope you blocked the scum and not the kill.

Funnily enough I considered both, difference is I'm a threat to scum, especially now I know they know my role, and Titus almost certainly wouldn't be a threat to scum. So she must be on the team.

Lynch her and if she flips scum you know RC is lying. If she's town then I'm gonna have to fall on my sword... But I'm confident in the result.

[Generic]

muffin help me out here and lynch for justice!

:>

no signs of that slot taking issue with the doc claim

even if this were the case (and BRO did have some issues with the doc claim, iirc - need to go back and check), did you voice concerns with the doc claim?

I voiced concerns over SSK! Remember I wanted him dead immediately after that night phase?

[Generic]

I want to lynch someone who proves I'm telling the truth. RC went first and immediately I got 4 votes on me without me saying a word.

I realise him going first gives him the advantage of being believed. Yet apparently outing the only PR we have left of strong value is more important than steering people to the right lynch.

I told you all, lynch Titus, if they flip town I am dead the next day regardless. But I'm confident.

[Generic]

I don't see what there is to lose. RC claims I'm scum via he blocked me. I claim Titus is scum cos I blocked her.

Easiest way to prove it is LYNCH TITUS. You lose nothing but another suspect in the PoE. Yet you gain the answer and don't lynch the fucking JK.

I mean it's unbelievable how some of you strategise a game.

[Generic]

Because you got me and RC the wrong way round. And my way you don't fucking lynch the JK!

[Generic]

If I'm lying what has RC and Titus got to worry about?

[Generic]

You know who are scum when I flip, just remember that.

Pedit:
Making it 1v1 solves nothing KBBQ. I see no point, especially with the confbias against me which has most of you ignoring me.
But I prove I'm telling the truth with the Titus flip snd I'm going for RC the next day with everything.

[Generic]

Scared of you? Why?

Again what have you got to lose being lynched if you are town Titus?

[Generic]

Titus thinks it's fine to mislynch the JK to prove the other is scum, rather than lynch her.

That's a town mindset? Lol

[Generic]

Scared of you? Why?

Again what have you got to lose being lynched if you are town Titus?

A better question is what have you got to lose by being lynched? I mean, sure we lose a PR if you are town, but that is two scum in the bag (RC/Titus) for the price of losing a PR. That is a risk I am willing to take.

I'm more value after I prove I'm telling the truth. How many scum left after them, 1?

[Generic]

I will fight the loss of me, especially with that leaving tonight exposed, when it's so easily proven I'm telling the truth. It's crazy you guys think this is the best play when most if you were townreading me before RC claimed my role.

[Generic]

@ Titus, so I'm scared of you but you are the easy option? Lol. Flailing scum.

@KBBQ, because of that mindset I don't see the point in placing town in a 1v1 with the potential to hit a PR. I'm giving the safer option. But apparently their gambit to make you mislynch the JK for them kind of proves they read you better than I did.

[Generic]

What they have done is played on the paranoia about me. You all were townreading me to a degree but the idea grneric had burned you all, especially since I always boast my scum record, caused the knee jerk voting.

I just hope people take a step back like f16 did initially. You want to believe it because I've burned people in the past. But I'm giving us an easy way to prove I'm town. It's up to you guys if you take it.

[Generic]

unvote, vote generic

Sorry mara, love you loads for standing by me though.

Still unreadable Proph, you know it always takes a lucky PR action to corner me...