Mini 1568: Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure (over)

[Riptide]

Yay, first post with the hydra.

Vote: Mnemonicdevice

Because devices can be bad.

[Riptide]

Burning_Earth- Why the third vote on Egg on pg1?

[Riptide]

@Cho - So let me get this straight. You made those three unlynchables because of their RVS votes?

- Dice

[Riptide]

So you see them as unlynchable, but not as concrete town?

I'm bad at this.

[Riptide]

What about there RVS votes make you think they should not be lynched today?

- dice

[Riptide]

Vote: Cho

Really though. Calling people unlynchable off of RVS is just plain ridiculous.

- Dice

[Riptide]

We're talking stuff out. He'll probably have a post in a bit. We do agree on Cho though.

- Dice

[Riptide]

@ post 59: It seemed more like a joke to me. I don't think cho was seriously suggesting they were unlynchable

@ post 60: "I don't want to say too scummy to be scum, but cho is too scummy to be scum"

@post 61: thanks

Have you read any of Cho's post? Pretty sure she's dead serious.

-dice

[Riptide]

Ah, yes, it is true we were probably already a bit further than that, nothing intentional, just wanted to come in on the game and I hadn't really put any thought into it at that point. I am ok with Elyse's vote on me for that reason, maybe with Dunhamganger's, too, cause wooo, wagons, but I am p sure I want more than "yay these people are sooo town based on RVS votes" from Cho. Staying with my vote.

Also
@Elyse: Any reason you think mnemonics Vote was good? From my POV it just looks like a pretty dull RVS-OMGUS.

Riptide asked a dumb question that looked planted to feign scumhunting.

What would you have rather me asked? Your favorite color?

Also, The only other vote that I would maybe have found to be worth commenting on was burnings' for wagon-jumping much but Riptide already did that. Other than that I often don't find much to comment on in RVS.

No, you vaguely said, "them OMGUSs are incredible" which literally means nothing and places no suspicion on anyone. The fact the you call it "commenting on something" shows that.

I don't even... I know MTD already said something, but nowhere was the expresion "them OMGUSs are incredible" said vaguely. It's right in the middle of his first post. It can't be much clearer than it is. And why would someone cast suspicion on someone this early, especially with their RVS post?

Everyone who is voting Cho needs to stop. He's obviously newbtown. Come on. What scum (with a joindate last week) would automatically eliminate two players from the lynch pool? I agree that it's unreasonable to call people unlynchable for RVS only, but I don't see how it makes him scum at all. TSO looks to be jumping on newbtown and I think he's smarter than that, so I'm scumreading him too atm.

And this is nearly textbook buddying. You ask what scum would automatically eliminate players from the lynch pool- newbscum would.
What does thinking TSO is smarter than jumping on a "newbtown" have anything to do with scum reading him? If he was smarter than that, why would he do it?
-HS

[Riptide]

Elyse - Why do you think we would want to appear to be scumhunting in our second post?

[Riptide]

Shouldn't two heads theoretically be

less

obtuse than one?

Oh, and B_E, what's the case on us again?

-HS

[Riptide]

BE - So basically you're voting us because we asked you about your vote?

- dice

[Riptide]

1

Yes but you seemed too cautious, like three votes were bad (especially when my vote was serious)

2

If you were trying to ascertain the meaning of my vote you would have asked about the reasons for the vote, not the position.

3

Also, I note that you (both heads) are reacting a reasonable amount to two votes.

1
2 I was trying to ascertain the meaning of your vote and putting emphasis on where it was.
3

[Riptide]

Yes but you seemed too cautious, like three votes were bad (especially when my vote was serious)

If you were trying to ascertain the meaning of my vote you would have asked about the reasons for the vote, not the position.

Also, I note that you (both heads) are reacting a reasonable amount to two votes.

1) Yeah, HS said he was a little paranoid about the vote in the hydra chat, but I think it was more about the reasoning and the fact that on the site we come from, that would usually be a scum tell.

3) Not really. We were just curious about the angle you were working at.

Why are you scum reading Egg?

P-edit: I don't think my partner and I are posting in sync right now. I'll work on communicating better.

[Riptide]

Cho - So basically, you're town reading him for his aggression, then you're scum reading him for his aggression, then you're placing him as null? Weeeeeeak.

I can understand keeping your vote on someone if you're still trying to figure someone out, but you're just leaving it there because he's mean? Mean =/= scum.

Hah I love how you try to make lurking look town.

BE - Yeah, I didn't think about how different a playstyle we might have. (It's almost like we stuck a Republican with a Democrat, lol). I guess that's the fun part about hydraing.

[Riptide]

Someone please engage me. Apathy is starting to infect me.

TBP - Do you have any other thoughts besides on Cho?

- Dice

[Riptide]

I guess it's probably more of laziness. Those two are pretty close in my book though.

- Dice

[Riptide]

MTD - Is there something specific about Cho that doesn't make you want to lynch her? Or is it just gut?

Also, working on some responses with HS, but he's been a little inactive.

- Dice

[Riptide]

MTD - Is there something specific about Cho that doesn't make you want to lynch her? Or is it just gut?

Her reaction to being pushed seemed genuine to me, but yeah, much of it is gut and the absence of a reason why I

would

want to lynch her.

Does it not bother you that she basically contradicted herself on her TSO read? Also, doesn't it bother you that she tried to pass lurking off as town?

[Riptide]

- Dice

[Riptide]

a)

I really want to bring myself to scumread him

i)

but I reluctantly think he is town for the blind aggression

1)

and yet I am also leaning toward scumreading him because I know he can be hyperaggressive to form a façade of towniness when he is scum.

a)

T S O is a

null

leaning

I-hope-you-are-scum

read for me.

b)

My vote is still on him because I don't like unnecessarily mean people.

4)

I was lurking out the pressure like a true townfuck.

@MTD

[Riptide]

a)

I really want to bring myself to scumread him

i)

but I reluctantly think he is town for the blind aggression

1)

and yet I am also leaning toward scumreading him because I know he can be hyperaggressive to form a façade of towniness when he is scum.

a)

T S O is a

null

leaning

I-hope-you-are-scum

read for me.

b)

My vote is still on him because I don't like unnecessarily mean people.

4)

I was lurking out the pressure like a true townfuck.

@MTD

->null read, as it was later
->context! Direct reply to

she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

So T S O said: "Scum motivation!", she said "Town motivation!"

She said that he was town for blind aggression. She also said he leans scum because of his aggression. Either this is a contradiction or fence sitting disguised in wording.

Still. Lurking is not town. Ever. (Unless you get in PRs, which is different, and I'm not getting in to)

[Riptide]

She said that he was town for blind aggression. She also said he leans scum because of his aggression. Either this is a contradiction or fence sitting disguised in wording.

What? don't you ever have arguments for scum and for town on a person?

Still. Lurking is not town. Ever. (Unless you get in PRs, which is different, and I'm not getting in to)

Already said that, lurking is null.
Arguably lurking under pressure, as TSO said, may in general be more probably scum, not sure about that though.

Yes, I do. The difference is someone saying "Player A is town because of his aggression, but scum because of post whatever" and saying "Player A is town because of his aggression, but scum because of his aggression"

I agree lurking is most often null, but trying to pass it off as town is ridiculous.

[Riptide]

Okay, using NK WIFOM to justify a vote on someone is bad. It is the baddest of bads.
By the by, most of our play so far is just dice being dice. And I don't even see how he was that defensive.
Also, I just convinced dice Elyse was scum over night, so now we both have to go back and fix our reads.
-HS

[Riptide]

HS had an ISO, case thingy in the hydra chat. I wasn't 100% sure on Elyse, but HS was pretty certain she was scum.

Rubicon - Yeah, I did play in Binding of Isaac, but you had already died. You have modded over me though.

Thoughts to come tomorrow because I'm way too busy today.

- Dice

[Riptide]

10 RVS means nothing right now.
25 MTD makes an RVS vote. Big deal. Woop-dee-doo he says people OMGUS'd. Is that really enough to deserve a serious vote? Or is it scum trying to look like they're doing something?(Yes, I'm using your own argument against you. Tit for tat.)
63 I've already commented on this one, here's the link- 78
80 Buuut I like being productive and trying to get out of RVS. So I'm going to ask a question to get us out of RVS.
Bad excuse is bad. Nowhere had you mentioned thinking that "them OMGUS's were incredible" was trying to justify anything. You just said he was trying to avoid commentary.
82 This is just WIFOM. There is no other word to describe it.
112 It's. Not. A. Dumb. Question.
114 No, you just said it was dumb. No explanation for it.
156 This post is boring for me. It felt as if it should've happened sooner, honestly.
162 Well, this is the post we're responding to above, so...(and here be it-

The RVS question (While not me, nor my specialty in RVS) actually was not as dumb as you think. It draws reactions, like yours, which was pretty scummy by the way. Considering this is a hydra, and we have to work out our thoughts together, no we did not have much content at the time, but that is changing as the game progresses.

Nowhere were the words "textbook" and "newbscum" used together. I said you were "nearly textbook buddying." To me it looked like that IF Cho flipped town, then you as scum was trying to get credit for calling her a town read. Also, you were defending her, possibly making her think you were town for doing so, simply because of the fact that you "helped" her.

Also, you criticize us for making a question, but the you also criticize us for only attacking certain people. That makes no sense. Also, at the time, the only person we really attacked was you. Everyone else we mentioned was someone we were starting to engage.
188 Yeah, um, I never knew you stopped either.
231 Yeah we are. Look at our interactions with you. Also, I watch and get reads from others' interactions with each other early D1, which is one reason I haven't been very active.
235 This is a weird post. Confirmation bias goes either way. Everybody does it. It's human nature.
237 And just a question that really IS pointless because Elyse isn't being patient.


Sorry, for the formatting of course. You'll definitely want another window open.
B_E is a ninja

[Riptide]

@tool
1. a. I responded to the part about weird play
b. I'm really not sure why having two confo townies on our wagon contributes to our being scum. Was actually gonna let dice take this one but w/e
2. I can't find it. Care to quote it?

[Riptide]

Before I start working on my thoughts, I would like to respond to tool first.

@Tool - Cho's lurking was different because she was lurking under pressure.

Bad dice. Bad.

[Riptide]

I'm not really good with hydras yet. :p

I'm getting too many townreads. Need to talk it over with HS.

[Riptide]

I've got to study for a big test tomorrow, but I have been reading up on some ISOs and communicating with HS. I'll try to put some reads out tomorrow.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Well, since dice seems to be busy-
Rubicon, why the unvote on us if you didn't think that posting my ISO of Elyse didn't really make me town?

[Riptide]

Why are you voting us again, BE?

- Dice

[Riptide]

Go reread page 13...
-HS

[Riptide]

Oh, and

Why are you voting us again, BE?

- Dice

-HS

[Riptide]

Burning_Earth- Why the third vote on Egg on pg1?

@Cho - So let me get this straight. You made those three unlynchables because of their RVS votes?

- Dice

So you see them as unlynchable, but not as concrete town?

I'm bad at this.

What about there RVS votes make you think they should not be lynched today?

- dice

I'm not really good with hydras yet. :p

I'm getting too many townreads. Need to talk it over with HS.

My case on riptide.

Riptide attacked cho without voting her until other people had.

Another masterpiece from B_E cases TM

I'm gonna use myself as an example- you read my case/ISO on Elyse? You saw how I explained what I was thinking as I was looking through the posts? Please do.

[Riptide]

B_E the links work fine for me. Oh, and message from dice-
To: B_E when you said that we waited for others to vote Cho before I voted
From: Dice
I was trying to figure out exactly what Cho was stating, and when I felt like I had a clear understanding I voted. It's not like I waited, not saying anything until someone voted, then jumped in and voted.

-HS

[Riptide]

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

[Riptide]

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

This is such an out of left field vote. Other than not being impressed do you think he's scummy?

Do I need to think he's scummy to vote him?

- Dice

[Riptide]

Orly

After re-reading a little, your entrance on Cho isn't bad, just not what I was expecting compared to how you entered Binding of Isaac.

What are you reads atm? Also, why the vote on dun?

[Riptide]

- Dice

(Always forget to do that)

[Riptide]

Orly

After re-reading a little, your entrance on Cho isn't bad, just not what I was expecting compared to how you entered Binding of Isaac.

What are you reads atm? Also, why the vote on dun?

That's pretty much how I feel about you (compared to Binding of Isaac & Fire and Ice) although I think your jump on the Cho wagon WAS bad. The Elyse thing is the only thing going for you frankly.

I don't obv-town in every game though. Binding of Isaac was an unusual situation since I replaced in at L-1.

I wanted to see where the dun vote would go, answer seems to be nowhere. If dunham is town there is probably scum parked on this wagon, possibly scum distancing from it (in the players talking about how it's such a bad wagon without saying why).

toolendo town read.

Would really like for TSO to do something town with the interactions from his push on Cho yesterday.

My gameplan as hydra is usually a little funky due to being new with hydras and having to listen to a second voice in my head (not always a bad thing though). I will admit, my play this game isn't what I hoped it would be, but I'm trying to change that now. As for my vote on Cho, I didn't really have much to say because TSO pretty much summed everything up before I could get to it. I did work on interacting with Cho in the beginning and found her reasoning and contradicting very odd.

I understand what you're saying. I think I obv town more when I replace in then when I start the game because reads are very different when you come in as a replacement.

I think Dun said he's been having computer problems, so I understand why he's been busy. I just don't understand the motive behind the Dun wagon.

I'm somewhat in agreement. He's more of leans town than straight up town, but I haven't ISO'd him, so the read might change.

@TSO and BE - Obviously I have

some

reasons for voting Rubicon, like meta difference, gut, my partner saying you feel a little off and #397 feeling off, but the vote didn't have rock solid reasoning behind it. Mainly it was to draw reactions, like BPC's, which I find kind of town for calling us out.

- Dice

[Riptide]

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

@BE - The fact you called out my vote on Cho and not this one really bugs me.

[Riptide]

Working on a reads list, but won't be done tonight because I'm tired from a long day.

[Riptide]

- Dice

[Riptide]

@Riptide
@HS
Why didn't you make your Elyse case during the Day?

I can actually answer this one. I was had a slight scum read on Elyse, but not as strong as HS, so he was trying to convince me, then BE hammered. I asked him to outline his case, so we could present it the next game day.

- Dice

[Riptide]

I addressed it to HS for a reason...
But w/e
Señores Riptide:
What was dice's read on Elyse before the case? How strong?
What was doce's read on Elyse after the case? How strong?
Apologies if you've answered these already. If you have, please still respond with new words instead of just quoting old stuff. Thanks

Sorry, I didn't know you really cared. HS told me he's going not going to be posting all too much due to having other games.

My read on Elyse was scum. It was only slightly leaning scum.

As for my read after the case, I think the best label for it is undefined. HS posted his case in the chat, but I didn't have time to read any of it before the flip came.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Well herro to you as well, Sleepy dude. My brain isn't screwed in quite right at the moment. Dud so e turbo studying and now I can get a bunch of random facts about Model T's out of my head(did you know Ford didn't invent the car OR the assembly line?) for Acreus' sake...
But just what dice said.
-HS
Will probably do more in the morning. Working stuff over with dice.

[Riptide]

Okay, well, uh, dice and I are working on something pertaining to B_E, but Sleepy already said my part of the post... So...
BPC- Would you care to show us what posts he made that lead you to think he's town and explain why they do, please.
-HS

[Riptide]

Also, I thought your working theory was that BE was my partner. Now I'm with Riptide?
And with the way multiple people on the Cho wagon voted (I.E. almost naked-ly), you don't think I could have come up with a short reason in order to join on if I'd wanted to?

1. Yes, either partner pairing is possible. I don't understand what the issue is here.
2. Of course you could have come up with a short reason. But maybe you wanted a more convincing reason so people wouldn't find it scummy.

You also haven't explained to me why it makes sense for me

as scum

to wait to unvote if I had some better wagon to be on anyway.

See above.

I'm looking, but I don't see an answer. You gave possible motivation for me not voting someone else, but not for me keeping my vote on TSO when I was supposedly waiting to take it off anyway. What was I waiting for?

Sorry, I misread the question.

The answer is, again, that there could be several scum-motivated reasons. One could be that you were waiting for somebody to give you a reason. Another could be that you were trying to stay out of the spotlight so you didn't want to vote or unvote and draw attention to yourself. Another could be that you weren't waiting at all, and rather that you just didn't believe in your case very much and so the second a townie attacked it you felt like you had to distance yourself from it.

I already responded to Cho when she said that exact same thing. You've read the post, I'm sure, seeing as you already quoted it.

Uh...I looked through your ISO just now and found a post where you responded to Cho challenging your read on TSO. That was the post where you unvoted TSO. But I didn't see anything where you responded to Cho talking about your unvote. I'm not even sure Cho did talk about your unvote.

Can you point to the post you're referring to?

You're getting bogged down in the fringes of what I said. The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

That is what I responded to. Note that you didn't say anything about my unvote here. You had a list of 3 items which had to do with my

keeping

my vote on TSO despite dropping the meta-related part of my argument, which is something I already responded about when Cho brought it up.

OK. Then what I'm saying is that it looks bad to me.

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

I've noted the scum motivation several times now.

This is a very odd thing to say. Up until this post, you hadn't noted any scum motivation, so you responding to me with this makes it seem like you're trying to make my arguments look redundant when they aren't.

Lol this should be fun. Let's quote all the times I've listed the possible scum motivations:

Spoiler: All the times I've given possible scum motivations for Jargonaut's actions

It almost seems like Jargonaut was waiting for an excuse to unvote TSO so she could go hop on a more viable wagon (that post was made when Riptide was at L-3 and Cho was at L-2.

I still find it generally suspicious for a player to cave the way you did. It feels like it's not genuine play, and town play with genuine-ness.

No, because scum have no genuine town motivation behind voting for somebody. So it would make sense for scum to want to vote for somebody else but not be sure who.

The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

Maybe you hadn't made up your mind as to which wagon you wanted to get on. Maybe you only felt pressure to unvote and you didn't feel so much pressure to hop on a different wagon. Maybe Riptide was your partner, so you didn't want to vote for them, but you also couldn't drum up a convincing enough case on Cho in time to hop on the wagon before it hit L-1.

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

@BE - The fact you called out my vote on Cho and not this one really bugs me.

Please elaborate on why he should have called me out for my vote instead of/along with yours, because from where I'm sitting this looks like a very sneaky way of pushing suspicion on to somebody else.

@TSO and Jargonaut: If you were to vote for anybody right now, who would it be?

@Rubicon and The Betting Pool: I'd like to hear some more explanation for your votes.

Okay, so BE originally called me out because he said we waited for other people to vote Cho before voting for her, which in fact is absolute bull crap. If you look at the timing of our posts of our interactions with Cho, there were no votes added to her until from the moment we engaged her to the moment we voted her. The reason we say he should've said something about that post is because the way you worded it, it sounded like you could have been waiting to see how the wagon was going before actually voting (at the very least, you were waiting on Cho to defend herself). If you read the wording of our post, it was not "Look at Tool! He did it too!" it was more like, "By your logic, shouldn't you have called Tool out as well?". One benefit from posting this was the reactions that came from it. We gave BE some town points for calling you out on your post and not just straight up tunneling, but lost town points when he tried to call us out on a deflection that wasn't there.

At this point, BE is just trying to fabricate reasoning on us that's not even there.

[Riptide]

- Dice

[Riptide]

Vote: TheBettingPool

This is mainly gut and that I feel that this slot has been coasting through this game. HS isn't exactly sure yet.

SK - I for one, have never been a big fan of mass claiming, but I have had very little experience in situations where mass claiming is helpful, so I would love to discuss your thoughts on why it would be a good time now.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Dice, thoughts on the above?

I can see how you can take that perspective, but I'd think scum would jump on a fellow scum's wagon later rather than sooner. It's more of a bandwagon than a bus IMO, but obviously that's my perspective because I know I'm town.

TSO, how do you differentiate a bad bus from scum not knowing which townie to vote because they're not sure how to fake genuine scumhunting?

PEDIT:
Dice, I'm assuming worst-case-but-still-in-the-game, which would be 3v2 LYLO tomorrow. The earlier you claim, the harder it is to make stuff up later. Massclaims in general are a good idea because they give information to town and force scum to think on their feet. Early massclaims are bad because then they give too much info to the scum, but I think it's late-enough in the game that benefits outweigh risks at this point. I think.

Makes sense to me. Honestly, I'm no expert in this category.

idk about tool. you're right that his push was weak, bad, whatever, but I've played scum with tool before and when he interacts with you, he puts in effort. if him and Jargo were scumbuddies, meta tells me his reaction would be a lot more concerted. I don't really know his town meta, I guess.

Open 545, btw.

... one game?
he clearly

was

putting in effort with Jargonaut
but I think he eased off the gas when he realized no one was paying attention to them because of B_E




also hightideofdice, thoughts on my tool case?

I'll take a look at it. HS and I are both reading Tool as town at this point.

[Riptide]

Why not? My gut has been one of my best tools in games, so why do you have such a problem with it? That last sentence looks like AtE.

So I have a question TBP. In 23 pages you made 4 vote. 1 RVS, and 3 on the largest wagon. Why have you been so conservative with your vote?

[Riptide]

Must've thought I already read it when I was on my phone. My mistake.

I see what you're saying. I do agree that it seems really odd how quick it was dropped without any notice. I like my vote where it is for now though.

P-EDIT: Yeah, it wasn't as much on inactivity as it was on coasting.

[Riptide]

TBP - Your reaction to our easily dismissable gut vote are another thing that's bugging me. See that's what I love about gut votes. They can be used in such a manner to where you can catch scum snapping back defensively.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Or would you rather we elaborate on your textbook scum bandwagoning you have been doing all game?

- Dice

[Riptide]

Yeah, there's gotta be scum on that wagon.

Egg - Could to give us some reads?

- Dice

[Riptide]

VOTE: Cho

Frankly there is nothing going for this girl. Her absence while she waited for the pressure to leave didn't work, and she admits that is what she was trying to do. How is that town in anyway? Town know that sometimes they will die and they should accept that and give as much info before their death by arguing their case so when they get mislynched it can be analyzed later by surviving town.

Cho are you sure you're a veteran of this site? There are mean people here who's play style is basically just to be a jerk. So your point's 2b and 2bi shouldn't be said, and I think you just posted that to try and explain some of your scummy activity away.

Why are you backing off on the unlynchable thing? I would of liked you more for town if you stuck to it... Don't try to appease us by backing off it please.

Oh come on! You've been skimming the thread for instances of your name? Are you just compulsively admitting to your own scum behavior? Are you a jester or something?

Why are you asking for us to ask you questions when you think you are going to be mislynched today? Scum fear the hunt of a town person about to be mislynched because after the flip all the information they gather is confirmed to be from a town source. How about you start asking some questions instead? There wasn't one "?" in that whole post and that is why you are scum.

-Lucky

A lot of this stuff is stuff that's already been said. Vote is the 5th vote on the most popular wagon.

Your posts suck shit, B_E.

be nice...

I agree with your vote on Dunham and until P_A forces me to change it, let me join you

VOTE: dunham

Question though, you have B_E and Dunham as scum reads. If one flips town does it hurt your read of the other? In other words, are you reading them as a team or separate?

Sheeps BPC and is the 4th vote on most popular wagon.

So Lucky and I got to chat a bit last night, and I'm good moving our vote in light of that.

VOTE: Burning_Earth

Lucky is the half of the hydra that has experience quickhammering people in non-is-scum-in-LyLo situations, and he agrees with me that Burning_Earth really isn't playing like town who messed up and wants to make amends.

tool, explanation for the vote, Lucky thought Dunhamganger looked like scum. I disagreed, but since I didn't have a strong scum read of my own I was all right leaving our vote there. Now I do, and I even got us synched up on it for now.

Incidentally, I'm currently comfortable calling tool town based on differences between this and Micro 318. Lucky's only willing to go as far as 'not scum' but I'm leaning on him. Other recently completed experience with MTD-wise, I have a weaker sense that this is town-MTD. Not as strong as tool, but I was always better at the contrasting parts than the comparing ones.

--PA

Reasoning for BE vote isn't very good. This is the 4th vote on the most popular wagon.

All of TBP's votes (excluding RVS) have been votes with reasoning that has already been expressed or something not very good smack dab in the middle of the most popular wagons. If this isn't coasting and bandwagoning all game, I don't know what is.

[Riptide]

All - I haven't heard back from HS in awhile, so I think he must be pre-occupied with finals or something.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Must've thought I already read it when I was on my phone. My mistake.

I see what you're saying. I do agree that it seems really odd how quick it was dropped without any notice. I like my vote where it is for now though.

P-EDIT: Yeah, it wasn't as much on inactivity as it was on coasting.

@SK - I know this is a little weak, but I wanted to discuss it with my second head without going out on my own because we were both town reading Tool.

Yeah so, HS and I are basically split on reads. We do agree Egg is town, and somewhat on our BPC read, but otherwise we're split. I'm going to try to talk things out with him, so we can have a clearer understanding on our reads.

[Riptide]

Hai guys! Interesting and crazy night. Me and P_A have had very little time to talk to each other so I am just going to represent myself here.

I support the mass claim. Mostly for the reason that it shows us the scum killer who would be pretty much conf town unless scum is foolish enough to try and counter claim it or something. My current scum reads are between tool and riptide. I should have gone through Jargo's ISO after the first night flip, I'll make sure to catch myself up there over the next day or two.

Riptide, why are you opening today with a vote based on gut and inactivity? Don't you think it's time to base it on something a little bit more substantial given that there are multiple flips and 23 pages of posts? Of course you could just be scum looking for the easiest to mislynch, which I'm kind of offended you think is me but oh well.

TBP - Your reaction to our easily dismissable gut vote are another thing that's bugging me. See that's what I love about gut votes. They can be used in such a manner to where you can catch scum snapping back defensively.

- Dice

pffft. How is it defensive to hate a bullshit reason for a read?

Or would you rather we elaborate on your textbook scum bandwagoning you have been doing all game?

- Dice

Yes we would!... though from skimming forward I think you already did so I'll get to that.

Well your post to come in for the day consists of a scum read on me, a mis-rep of my reasoning (calling inactivity instead of coasting), and AtE. Plus, having to respond to one vote on you based on gut isn't even worth it. If gut is as bad as you think it is, you should have no problem just letting the vote be.

[Riptide]

@TSO- why the sudden tone change? You seem like you drifted away after a strong D1. Why don't you want to comment on most stuff(besides the sleepy/tool arguements. It's boring, and I kinda just want to get rid of tool because absolutely no one is paying any attention to him or the person he's arguing with.)

Speaking of which- tool, please tell me why you seemingly want to get into wall wars that only serve to annoy and distract the town?
-HS(I'm BAAAAACK)

[Riptide]

I disagree with HS's wall wars comment. I actually find wall wars can be very informative and telling. We're probably sounding extremely waffly right now, but saying wall wars only distract and annoy the town would is incorrect to my justification.

- Dice, the owner of Waffle House

[Riptide]

I was just saying this wall war in particular. Not all wall wars. Then I would be a huge hypocrite.
-HS

[Riptide]

I don't know, Riptide, it really takes it out of you when you're so sure someone is scum and then they flip Town. You have to go back, you have to re-analyse everything, absolutely everything, and all you see is constant reminders of you being wrong. I was incredibly sure of Cho-scum, and it was horrible seeing her flip Town, but the real kick came when, just as I began to settle on Burning_Earth, he flipped and I was wrong there as well. I'd love to get back into the game, but often I look at it and I just think, "Oh Jesus, this game, nope."

I do want to engage, though, I really genuinely do. It feels a bit like everyone has about one person they're talking to, but I have no-one, so it's hard to find a way back in. If people were to ask me questions, I'd probably find it easier.

As well as this, it feels like we're going through the motions because we basically have the game locked down - Egg's conftown, tool and BPC are very town, I know I'm town and people get that as well, so we're just deciding on who we lynch and who Egg kills tonight and barring unlikely circumstances, we can't lose.

PEdit: Do you guys have a QT where you post thoughts? It doesn't really feel like it.

We can relate to that feeling. It does knock your confidence sometimes.

How about this. Answer us some questions. What do you think about TBP's voting pattern? Even with SK vs Tool argument being boring (I need to finish reading that), who do you feel has one that argument? If you had a day vig shot, who would you shoot right now and why?

We do have our own little chat, but we got kind of messed up when I disagreed strongly with something he posted, and he felt like he needed to respond.

[Riptide]

What do you think about TBP's voting pattern?

They start off RVS voting Dunhamganger, which is fair enough, I guess.

The next vote is them moving onto the Cho wagon. I'm probably biased here but Cho was so scummy that it wasn't actually an outrageous thing to do. On the other hand, it did start the trend they've continued to set of jumping on big wagons.

Their next vote is, again, on Dunhamganger, The case on Dunham wasn't good and unlike the Cho vote, it has no prelude in terms of them interacting or commenting with Dunham. They just blatantly sheep BPC.

Then, when the counterwagon on Burning_Earth comes ...they conveniently move onto B_E. The way p_a shows their transition could be described as legit, but she's definitely good enough to fake it and it's still bad regardless.

They haven't voted today.

I'll admit, after reading that, I'm more convinced TBP is scum than beforehand. They haven't had a problem with any wagon at any stage in the game, at all. That does worry me.

Basically my thoughts, just a little more in depth. I'm trying to give this a fair thought process though. Why would town hop on the largest wagon every time? I know it can happen when your confidence level takes a blow and you try to listen more to others, but that's not the case with TBP.

Even with SK vs Tool argument being boring (I need to finish reading that), who do you feel has one that argument?

Oh, tool, definitely. I haven't even read them that well, to be quite honest, but I looked at some of tool's answers and they're solid. A lot of SK's case is highly subjective and open to interpretation/opinion, whereas tool's answers aren't.

Some things tool said bugged me (don't really agree with disengaging from your scum read when you feel like it's pointless), but otherwise from that, I feel like Tool defended himself pretty well, and some of the things he said are town telling to me.

If you had a day vig shot, who would you shoot right now and why?

Errrghh, this is a hard one. I would have said either you or Krew, with Krew probably just minimally more scummy than you, before this post, but now I'm not that confident that TBP is Town anymore. So, gun to my head... out of Krew/TBP, maaaybe Krew? (I'm glad I'm not a dayvig!)

Why would you say you want to kill SK? Because of his case, or his play? Same for TBP and I.

[Riptide]

BPC - If you aren't sure on your read on us, you should engage us. Give us some questions or something, not just making a scum read with cloudy reasoning.

I would like to see TBP's response to 705 with an additional question. Who do you think is the partner of your top scum read?

[Riptide]

Back, but I might have to replace out of this hydra slot,

- Dice

[Riptide]

Oh whoa the sites been up longer than I expected O.o I guess my phone was being weird yesterday.
For now I'm gonna make us

UNVOTE

1) because I decided TBP wasn't scum, and because the site crash made me extremely paranoid in the opposite way as TSO.

[Riptide]

I wish my other head would talk to me before unvoting, so we don't waffle so much.

[Riptide]

I'm still waiting for HS to tell me why TBP isn't scum. Until he works on that, I'm going to

VOTE: TheBettingPool

BPC - ilu <3

[Riptide]

That's not very nice

Actually it's C. I'm town voting for scum. Always go with C.

[Riptide]

I'm confident. I'm not always this confident in every read, but I'm pretty sure about this one.

[Riptide]

If you don't believe me, I always talk like this. Just go read up on some of my games.

[Riptide]

I did say I, as in not we. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what my partner is thinking about because taptalk ate his post to "have us rethink our reads". (I don't think I'm going to re-think my TBP read anyway)

[Riptide]

TBP - Go back and quote some posts you made you feel like genuinely contributed to the game and tell us why you feel that way.

We understand being out of sync, as we have been in that state before, so we want to try to read your slot fairly and not just be a tunnel hard like I usually do. How about you answer some of these questions.

Who do you feel is the most iffy read to you at this time? Why is that?
If you had a vig shot, who would you shoot right now?
Why do you feel you are so out of sync this game?
Do you feel confident in the reads you made? (whenever you make them)

I will probably have more post reads, but these are good for now.

[Riptide]

- Dice

[Riptide]

Ultimately we have our lynch/vig/lynch, and if we can't hit scum in any of those we deserve to lose.

Wait this is wrong. If there are 2 scum left, then we lynch wrong it's 6, Egg shoots wrong 5, Egg is killed 4, 2 vs 2 is a loss.

And please nobody hammer. I'm still waiting for lucky to answer my questions.

[Riptide]

@TSO - Can we borrow one of your town games?

[Riptide]

Which one of those would you say you had the most aggressive start?

- Dice

[Riptide]

Counter-claim? Do you mean claim? Also, we would think if he was going to shoot us, he would be voting us and not on the wagon we led.

Also, we'd still like to know which game you feel you're most aggressive in.

- Dice

[Riptide]

I didn't really get the joke, as you can tell.

Bad joke TSO

Also

Which one of those would you say you had the most aggressive start?

- Dice

You're slippin' bro

What do you mean?

[Riptide]

If you think trying to stop tunneling and ask questions to initiate someone is scummy, then I can't really help you there. I am curious why you're calling me out now instead of earlier when I was initiating TSO with similar questions.

Also, calling my questions awful, then proceeding to suggest Lucky answers them is super weak.

P-EDIT: I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to, Egg.

[Riptide]

Who do you feel is the most iffy read to you at this time? Why is that?
If you had a vig shot, who would you shoot right now?
Why do you feel you are so out of sync this game?
Do you feel confident in the reads you made? (whenever you make them)

I will probably have more post reads, but these are good for now.

I am going to eliminate the bad questions first.

2. If I had a vig shot, I'd probably shoot you. I have no idea why you would ask this questions instead of "Who is your top scum read?" since they are the same thing. Would anyone not shoot their top scum read?

3. I answered this.

Why didn't you read my post?

4. First, if my answer to this was yes, than your first question is moot. Second, you are using two different tenses here. Are you asking me about future reads or past reads? I JUST said that I would be revisiting my reads, but it looks like the one read that isn't changing is that you are scum. I hope Egg shoots you.

Back to your first question.

1. My most iffy read is TSO. I think he is town, but he has outbursts of things that set off my scumdar.

2. Not always. In my first game as cop, I decided to cop my null reads. I hit the entire scum team of 4 in the first 4 nights. While it's true this question is pretty similar to your top scumread, sometimes people like to shoot someone they are unsettled about to get them out of the way.

3. You said why you're out of sync as a hydra, not out of sync in this game. I'm wondering why it's been so hard for you to engage in the game.

4. It's hard to believe you would be confident in every read, so the question could be looked at more of "which reads are you most confident in?". Second, I literally said, "when you make them". Do you not read my posts?

1. What sort of thinks are setting off your scumdar?

The fact that I'm making an effort to engage lucky in this game, and he's treating it as "these questions are useless" does bug me. It's almost as if he doesn't want to be engaged.

[Riptide]

Hi ffery

[Riptide]

Egg has claimed vig, who shot Jargo.

[Riptide]

I had a lot more to work with, given three known scum ISOs to comb through. But, like I said in the middle of the night, I think there's some stuff to glean from jargonaut's ISO.

I still have a lot of data to sort through.

What's the basis for the TBP wagon?

My main reasoning comes in post #642. If you want further elaboration, I can explain more in depth.

[Riptide]

@Mod - Highshroomish has told me he will have very limited access until further notice.

- dice

[Riptide]

The fact that I'm making an effort to engage lucky in this game, and he's treating it as "these questions are useless" does bug me. It's almost as if he doesn't want to be engaged.

You'll have to excuse me if I am being cynical, but as you are my top scum pick, I don't take you seriously at the moment.

So basically, you're going to start scum tunneling?

[Riptide]

In my opinion, that ties into gut reads and such. Whether the tunneling is done by scum or town is more of perspective.

[Riptide]

@Mod - Highshroomish has told me he will have very limited access until further notice.

- dice

Confirming this.


The reason I said that my paranoia was in the opposite way as TSO's, I was saying that I was thinking everyone was town.

The fact that I'm making an effort to engage lucky in this game, and he's treating it as "these questions are useless" does bug me. It's almost as if he doesn't want to be engaged.

You'll have to excuse me if I am being cynical, but as you are my top scum pick, I don't take you seriously at the moment.

So basically, you're going to start scum tunneling?

what's the difference between scum tunneling and town tunneling?

Scum tunneling is trying to distract town and clog the thread with bs.
Town tunneling is trying to prove to the town of a persons scummieness.

While they both do the exact same thing, they have different motives.

Really, we're just calling you scum.

-HS

[Riptide]

Hey BPC, can you remind us what your reasons are for scum reading TBP and us? Also, do you believe TBP and us are partners?

[Riptide]

Yep, I got distracted, sorry!

Rip: Your scumtheatre moments when you and your partner fought just feels so forced and it annoys me. I think it's scummy as all hell. Nothing this game really makes me think you're town thus far. There is more that I've stated before and you can feel free to ISO, I'm too lazy to write out now.

Well, considering this is HS and my first time hydraing ever, we didn't know how it would work out, so I'm not surprised we've been waffling so much. Are you scum-reading TBP for the same reason?

[Riptide]

Hey BPC, can you remind us what your reasons are for scum reading TBP and us?

Also, do you believe TBP and us are partners?

Can you answer the bold too please?

[Riptide]

Why not? My gut has been one of my best tools in games, so why do you have such a problem with it? That last sentence looks like AtE.

So I have a question TBP. In 23 pages you made 4 vote. 1 RVS, and 3 on the largest wagon. Why have you been so conservative with your vote?

Reading through your posts (which I'm still working on), this post made me want to ask you a direct question. Where has your gut been a good tool?

Are you asking in a certain game or just in general?

- Dice

[Riptide]

@683-685 - I can't really talk about ongoing games, but HS and I have had disagreements with wall wars before.

Also ffery, wanted to note that Jargo has a lot less games than me, so her coaching me wouldn't make a lot of sense.

[Riptide]

Why not? My gut has been one of my best tools in games, so why do you have such a problem with it? That last sentence looks like AtE.

So I have a question TBP. In 23 pages you made 4 vote. 1 RVS, and 3 on the largest wagon. Why have you been so conservative with your vote?

Reading through your posts (which I'm still working on), this post made me want to ask you a direct question. Where has your gut been a good tool?

Are you asking in a certain game or just in general?

- Dice

In this game.

Well, not much yet this game. I didn't really use gut for Cho, as she was just scummy in general. Day 2 Rubicon vote was mainly gut, which didn't produce much because he got NK'd. Day 4 gut vote on TBP, which I did provide more reasoning on later. I really won't know how effective my gut was until after this game is over, but in general I feel my gut can be better than when I try to reason things out. (Just lost a LYLO situation offsite recently because I followed reason instead of gut)

[Riptide]

@683-685 - I can't really talk about ongoing games, but HS and I have had disagreements with wall wars before.

Also ffery, wanted to note that Jargo has a lot less games than me, so her coaching me wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Fewer games at MS or in general?

Actually, I was comparing my total games 20+ to her games on MS. I'm not really sure if she has played any offsite games.

P:EDIT - TBP wasn't on everyone's scum list initially though. It wasn't really until I started bringing up their voting placement when they started getting scum reads.

I don't really have any onsite scum meta to use anyway

[Riptide]

Ffery - Honestly, I don't think Egg should shoot at all. On the off chance I'm wrong about TBP, if he shoots wrong, then town loses.

[Riptide]

Ffery - Honestly, I don't think Egg should shoot at all. On the off chance I'm wrong about TBP, if he shoots wrong, then town loses.

It sounds like what you're saying is that he shouldn't shoot if TBP flips town. What if he flip scum?

Yes, if TBP is lynched and happens to flip town, Egg shouldn't shoot, but also if I'm lynched, I don't think Egg should shoot either. Imo, I'd rather not put the town's last chance in the hands of one person, however right they have been in their shots this game.

[Riptide]

Internet has been kind of shoddy, so I don't know how well I'll be able to respond to stuff tonight.

[Riptide]

Anyone - If you have any questions for me, I'll be on til the deadline.

[Riptide]

@TSO - If tonight ends with you not having a vote, I'm taking that as a scum claim.

[Riptide]

^It's actually probably best you vote me. Egg has the possibility of getting blocked if scum has a RB. At least with my flip, town will have more info.

[Riptide]

Well, Egg dying wouldn't give us much knowledge would it? At least if I died, then you guys would know my intentions are truthful.

[Riptide]

that totally doesn't make sense.

Makes me think TBP is the scum PR and you're making a last ditch effort to keep them alive.

How doesn't it make sense? Me dying gives more info than a no-lynch.

[Riptide]

I'm going to try to be pretty transparent about my reads here.

Due to PoE and the fact HS has been nagging my butt about how scummy TSO is since last game day, I'm pretty he's scum. I need to talk to my partner about who the other scum would be.

Egg being alive today leaves me with 2 ideas

A) Scum is causing some sort of WIFOM
B) Scum felt confident if Egg shot that he would shoot wrong

Either way, I'm pretty sure Egg is town.

That leaves me with ffery and tool, both who seemed pretty town to me. I will probably do some sort of VCA to help narrow things down more, but I really need to think about these two.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Who are you popcorning to ffery?

[Riptide]

Ffery and Tool - If you guys were going to vote Jargonaut on day 2, what would your motivations be?

[Riptide]

VT.

Popcorn to Tool

[Riptide]

For those who want to know, the point I had when asking that recent question is that it can catch scum offguard if not ready. One of Tool/ffery would have struggle with a decent answer because they already knew Jargo was scum, therefore had to generate some reasoning for it/read back and try to figure something out.

HS doesn't believe TSO's claim at all. I'm trying to reason out why he would claim it as scum.

[Riptide]

@T S O Here's how I "justify" your "crumb."-
You ask scum if they are paranoid of you. How is that a crumb specifically for PGO? Because you used the word "paranoid"? It fits for any PR, if it can even be considered a crumb! A VT could say the exact same thing simply to mess with the scum team. And in a game with a Vig, a PGO is, from my POV, a safe claim. The Vig would be too scared to touch you, as would the scum team, which would perfectly justify you staying alive if you were a town leader.

-HS

[Riptide]

I decided to take a break from mafia for a couple days. Will catch up now.

[Riptide]

I was considering TSO's claim, and I wasn't entirely sure, but my mind was made up when I looked back and saw the argument started by SK against Tool. If SK and Tool were both scum, and SK led an argument against his buddy right after they lost Jargo, then I would eat my hat. We are both in complete agreement with

VOTE: TSO

I can't prove it, so I guess I'll drop it.

Based on you and tool's reaction, though, I don't see you as a team, meaning Riptide has to be scum.

Basically this is scum grasping at straws, then when it gets shot down, he drops it.

[Riptide]

I'm not entirely sure yet. I want to read more in depth in TSO's reactions with you and Tool. I'd also like the opinion of my other head too.

[Riptide]

The cool one.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Burning_Earth gives off let's-push-people-and-see-how-they-respond vibes, which leans him toward town for me.

caledfwitch's post #55 pings my scumdar a little. Could be pushing an argument toward a mislynch without getting too involved/opening herself up to criticism/stepping out into the spotlight. The phrasing is kinda cautious.

@Dunhamganger: Could you explain your vote on MTD? And is it serious or RVS?

Elyse's votes seem fine to me.

MTD is a slight town lean for the same reason that Burning_Earth is.

@Riptide: Has the other head of your hydra posted/shared their thoughts with you yet?

oh hi tool!

winning scumteam last game: you paranoid of me?

Uh yes.

Burning_Earth, your opinion on the above would be appreciated.

Why Burning_Earth?

Everybody else either hasn't contributed enough for me to respond to or I have nothing to say about them yet.

UNVOTE: Egg

So this heated up fast.

You seem disappointed.

This by itself is a weird conclusion to jump to after me saying "So this heated up fast."

But taken with this post:

I'd ask why town would do that.

You like lynching players you have a townread on as town? Good to know.

It begins to look like you're intentionally jumping to conclusions in order to push people.

Why are you doing that, dun?

Why would Town put themselves in their own "Unlynchable" pool? It's more likely to come from Scum than from Town, in my opinion, because it's a rather sneaky thing to do.

This is the weakest point of your case. I mean, come on, I doubt even newbscum would actually believe that they could trick town into thinking they were town by slipping themselves into a list of "unlynchables."

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

Excellent vote.

Town:

Spoiler: caledfwitch/Rubicon

Nothing comment-worthy from caledfwitch.

I think Cho was probably the best wagon.

Fucking quickhammers, though.

This post makes me think Rubicon is town. If he were scum and knew that Cho was a mislynch, I would expect him to distance himself from it in twilight (he hadn't placed a vote yet and the above post was in response to me asking who he would have voted for if he'd had the chance.) If he were scum, he could have easily said "I don't know, I haven't looked at the other slots yet" or something like that, but instead he tied himself to the Cho wagon.

Spoiler: Egg

Posts #9, #14, #68, #193 and more seem like genuine, equal-opportunity scumhunting to me.

Generally getting towny vibes from this slot.

Spoiler: MTD

In post #106, MTD unvotes Cho when she was at L-3. I don't see scum doing this. The reasoning he gives afterward for unvoting Cho seems genuine:

Her reaction to being pushed seemed genuine to me, but yeah, much of it is gut and the absence of a reason why I

would

want to lynch her.

Does it not bother you that she basically contradicted herself on her TSO read?

How so? Not seeing it.

Also, doesn't it bother you that she tried to pass lurking off as town?

Not really seeing this either. She showed a possible town motivation for it, didn't say that it was a towny thing to do.
Generally speaking, lurking is null.

Otherwise nothing particularly scummy I see in this slot.

Null-town:

Spoiler: Dunhamganger

When looking through Dun's meta, I couldn't find any viable scum games to compare his play to, so these are all town games. The links are posts that remind me of his play in this game:

Mini 1388, 20th Century Philosophy: 12, 19, 175, after that he begins actually posting content

Mini 1393, Oh What a Year!: 175, 177, 188, 201

Mini 1382, The Mystery at Lake Village: 40, 194, other than that he actually isn't a whole lot like he is in the current game, in the sense that he is contributing more, asking people questions and is willing to engage with them.

The conclusion here is that Dunhamganger acts this way (being a bit of a jerk to people, not giving much reasoning to his votes, not being all that willing to engage in meaningful conversation with other players early in the game) when he's town. I don't know if he acts this way when he's scum, so it's not enough for me to fully townread him, but generally conforming with your town meta is a fairly good sign of being town.

Spoiler: TSO

Time for TSO's mighty CHO BACKTRACK POST OF SCUMMINESS.

Not sure what this post was all about.

A lot of TSO's posts on here (Posts #105, #123, #124 are good examples) remind me of the game I played with him where I was scum and he was town in that TSO is very aggressive, very confident and sometimes downright mean. Conversely, his play in the game where I was on a scumteam with him was quite different. In that game he was much calmer and much less willing to tunnel on people. It seemed more like he wanted to stay at the edge of the spotlight in that game, whereas in this game he deliberately thrust himself into the center (or near-center) of it.

I also feel like all but one of his reasons for pushing Cho were legitimate reasons, which makes his push against her feel more genuine. The one I disagreed with was him saying that it was scummy for Cho to include herself in her "unlynchable" list. I didn't, and still don't, see that as anything more than just a thing that any player would say regardless of alignment.

That being said, I don't like that Cho was more or less the one player TSO focused on on D1. Yes, that was the "biggest" thing happening, and yes, TSO did interact with other players, but I don't think I saw him giving a legitimate read on any other players during D1 (besides his "Riptide can be town because he agrees with me" thing) -- that's a problem, and enough to stop me from fully townreading TSO.

Null:

Spoiler: mnemonic

Wow. I am not caught up on this.
Will make a long catchup post by weekend at the latest.

Would like to see this.

Null-scum:

Spoiler: Riptide

Also, The only other vote that I would maybe have found to be worth commenting on was burnings' for wagon-jumping much but Riptide already did that. Other than that I often don't find much to comment on in RVS.

No, you vaguely said, "them OMGUSs are incredible" which literally means nothing and places no suspicion on anyone. The fact the you call it "commenting on something" shows that.

I don't even... I know MTD already said something, but nowhere was the expresion "them OMGUSs are incredible" said vaguely. It's right in the middle of his first post. It can't be much clearer than it is. And why would someone cast suspicion on someone this early, especially with their RVS post?

Why would somebody cast suspicion that early on? For a number of obvious reasons: to get out of RVS, because they find something genuinely suspicious, because they're scum trying to look like they're scumhunting, etc., etc. Those reasons are numerous enough and obvious enough that Riptide's question here seems like a forced defense of MTD. I see a scum motivation behind that kind of defense regardless of MTD's alignment.

Hah I love how you try to make lurking look town.

Still. Lurking is not town. Ever. (Unless you get in PRs, which is different, and I'm not getting in to)

I agree lurking is most often null, but trying to pass it off as town is ridiculous.

So lurking is not town, and it's usually null, but it can be scummy. So what's the difference between Cho's lurking vs. the lurking of caledfwitch and mnemonicdevice?

By the by, most of our play so far is just dice being dice.

Like I mentioned before, this post doesn't sit well with me. I've seen scum use their partner as an excuse before and it was basically a way to not answer for their slot's scumminess.

This slot looks suspicious to me, but not as suspicious as B_E, with whom this slot is diametrically opposed. As I said before, if one of {B_E, Riptide} flips scum then the other is probably town.

Spoiler: TBP

Post #164 is the only post in this ISO that gives content without saying some form of "sorry we haven't been active, will catch up later." The reasoning behind the Cho vote is, I believe, entirely made up of things people have already said. The activity level of this hydra on D1 could be described as activelurking.

Scum:

Spoiler: B_E

Moar votes on riptide plz

This post strikes me as a little weird because B_E's original vote on Riptide had very little stated reasoning. When I saw the original vote on Riptide I actually assumed it was just early game trying-to-get-out-of-RVS shallow voting. Yet the above post reads like B_E thinks Riptide is lynch-worthy at this point and therefore not just a shallow vote. Could be scumB_E not having a genuine reason for scumreading Riptide because B_E is scum and therefore has no genuine reads.

Post #138 is B_E sticking to his original case on Riptide, which was formed very early in the game and has apparently not changed up to that point. Then Rubicon comes into the game and in post #245 he again calls for more votes on Riptide. This seems like a lot of pushing for a read that was formed pretty early in the game and so far only has one piece of reasoning behind it (and not a very strong one at that).

B_E hammers Cho in #275 after hard-defending Cho for most of the day. He says he didn't realize it was a hammer, which can't be proven or disproven so it's null. He gives this as his reasoning for voting Cho:

she made some really bad posts. See 254.

The laziness of that case supports B_E being scum because it makes the following scenario more plausible:

B_E sees Riptide as a mislynch target -> continues to push Riptide but doesn't post much reasoning because he doesn't have much reasoning -> thinks Cho mislynch won't go through (while pressure

did

build steadily on Cho yesterday, pressure also built pretty steadily on the Riptide wagon and there were moments when it looked like the Cho wagon wouldn't go through) -> B_E sees Cho wagon can actually go through and decides to hammer

That being the case, I would guess B_E is just a goon and therefore sees himself as more expendable and would think it's better to make himself look scummy by hammering a mislynch than waiting on a partner to do it (this is assuming at least one of his partners wasn't on the Cho wagon).

I feel pretty confident in saying that if B_E is scum, Riptide is probably not, and vice versa. I don't see scum continuing to push a partner like that when a juicy mislynch was there to support instead.

Spoiler: Jargonaut

The combination of this post (which is in reference to TSO):

I looked at some of your town games, and to be honest, you play fairly aggressive most of the time. I'm retracting the meta part of my argument. That said, you're still my biggest suspect, so I'm keeping my vote on you.

And this post (which is in response to Cho):

I never said meta was the biggest part of my argument against TSO. However, seeing as a lot of people have stated that he plays in a similar manner all the time, I'm doubting whether my initial read was very good.

So actually, you're right in that my vote on TSO doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
UNVOTE:

Seems suspicious to me though. It almost seems like Jargonaut was waiting for an excuse to unvote TSO so she could go hop on a more viable wagon (that post was made when Riptide was at L-3 and Cho was at L-2. To be fair, Jargonaut

didn't

vote anybody else before the end of the day, but then she didn't need to in order for Cho to get lynched.

This actually fits in pretty nicely with my theory that B_E hammered because he's a goon and he'd rather make himself look scummy than have a scumpartner with a PR do it. If either Jargonaut or B_E were to flip scum, I would be looking at the other.

VOTE: Burning_Earth

I don't think that post is actually particularly bad - it's one of Cho's best posts, Burning_Earth.

I don't agree that it's one of Cho's best posts, but I don't think it was particularly scummy either. Now that you point it out, B_E pointing to that post as the main reason he flip-flopped and voted for Cho makes B_E look worse in my eyes. There was plenty to scumread Cho for before that post, but that's the one that made him switch? Seems like shallow reasoning to me.

The Jargonaut-scum argument bores me because it feels like it's more rhetoric than anyway solid.

Activity is shit. Prod everyone, N, and I include myself in this.

I don't think that post is actually particularly bad - it's one of Cho's best posts, Burning_Earth.

I don't agree that it's one of Cho's best posts, but I don't think it was particularly scummy either. Now that you point it out, B_E pointing to that post as the main reason he flip-flopped and voted for Cho makes B_E look worse in my eyes. There was plenty to scumread Cho for before that post, but that's the one that made him switch? Seems like shallow reasoning to me.

I would have to agree. I'm starting to dislike Burning_Earth more and more - he feels off today.

You'll notice that between my posts 87 and 209, multiple people said that TSO's play at the time was similar to his town meta.

I may have asked this before, but what meta of me were you using? I'm not particularly aggressive as scum, so I'd like to see it.

But of course there are things that can change my opinion! (winkwink)

I'm admittedly thick sometimes, but I have no idea what you're talking about here.

I'm still town though.

And you felt the need to tell us this ...why?

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.

Pretty much this is my Dunham stance.

What's your read on Jargonaut, anyway?

I don't really know why he opposed the Cho wagon - it was almost like he felt he had to do it, but not in a scummy way, he just felt that someone should object. That showed in a rather weak and uncommitted argument. I'm not scumreading him, but he's not incredibly Town either. Gun to my head, Town.

I don't approve of the dunham wagon. Yeah, he doesn't seem very invested and his posts are generally not that serious, but really, that doesn't scream scum to me and as others said, the not-that-seriousness seems to be in his meta.
It really just seems to be an easy target which scum would love to hop on to me.

Also:

I'm short on time but I just wanna say I approve of the Dunham wagon.

Why this? You are voting him, it is obvious you approve, so why say this?

Start an alternative wagon and give us a good reason to vote it with you.

Not really a new wagon, but I will
VOTE: b_e
(I did think I already was doing that...)
As I said I p much agree with what tool said there, also that "being angry at himself" seemed fake to me, I especially wouldn't expect a townie to make that much of a fuzz about "you should probably lynch me".

I'm liking MTD more and more with posts like these.

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

I would have to disagree with this - I thought his analysis of TSO-Cho was fair and unbiased. He's a townread.

Vote: Rubicon

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything you've produced so far.

This is such an out of left field vote. Other than not being impressed do you think he's scummy?

Do I need to think he's scummy to vote him?

Um, yes, actually. You do. That's the point.

toolendo town read.

Indeed.

Would really like for TSO to do something town with the interactions from his push on Cho yesterday.

Having a look now.

Also, I thought your working theory was that BE was my partner. Now I'm with Riptide?
And with the way multiple people on the Cho wagon voted (I.E. almost naked-ly), you don't think I could have come up with a short reason in order to join on if I'd wanted to?

1. Yes, either partner pairing is possible. I don't understand what the issue is here.
2. Of course you could have come up with a short reason. But maybe you wanted a more convincing reason so people wouldn't find it scummy.

You also haven't explained to me why it makes sense for me

as scum

to wait to unvote if I had some better wagon to be on anyway.

See above.

I'm looking, but I don't see an answer. You gave possible motivation for me not voting someone else, but not for me keeping my vote on TSO when I was supposedly waiting to take it off anyway. What was I waiting for?

Sorry, I misread the question.

The answer is, again, that there could be several scum-motivated reasons. One could be that you were waiting for somebody to give you a reason. Another could be that you were trying to stay out of the spotlight so you didn't want to vote or unvote and draw attention to yourself. Another could be that you weren't waiting at all, and rather that you just didn't believe in your case very much and so the second a townie attacked it you felt like you had to distance yourself from it.

I already responded to Cho when she said that exact same thing. You've read the post, I'm sure, seeing as you already quoted it.

Uh...I looked through your ISO just now and found a post where you responded to Cho challenging your read on TSO. That was the post where you unvoted TSO. But I didn't see anything where you responded to Cho talking about your unvote. I'm not even sure Cho did talk about your unvote.

Can you point to the post you're referring to?

You're getting bogged down in the fringes of what I said. The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

That is what I responded to. Note that you didn't say anything about my unvote here. You had a list of 3 items which had to do with my

keeping

my vote on TSO despite dropping the meta-related part of my argument, which is something I already responded about when Cho brought it up.

OK. Then what I'm saying is that it looks bad to me.

The reason I said your scenario is convoluted is because there doesn't seem to be scum motivation for me to do the things you are saying I did.

I've noted the scum motivation several times now.

This is a very odd thing to say. Up until this post, you hadn't noted any scum motivation, so you responding to me with this makes it seem like you're trying to make my arguments look redundant when they aren't.

Lol this should be fun. Let's quote all the times I've listed the possible scum motivations:

Spoiler: All the times I've given possible scum motivations for Jargonaut's actions

It almost seems like Jargonaut was waiting for an excuse to unvote TSO so she could go hop on a more viable wagon (that post was made when Riptide was at L-3 and Cho was at L-2.

I still find it generally suspicious for a player to cave the way you did. It feels like it's not genuine play, and town play with genuine-ness.

No, because scum have no genuine town motivation behind voting for somebody. So it would make sense for scum to want to vote for somebody else but not be sure who.

The core of my argument is this. These behaviors:

-Retracting the biggest part of your argument for scumreading someone
-Declaring that they are still your biggest suspect
-Keeping your vote on them anyway

Seem scummy to me because they contradict each other and therefore suggest that your motives aren't genuine.

Maybe you hadn't made up your mind as to which wagon you wanted to get on. Maybe you only felt pressure to unvote and you didn't feel so much pressure to hop on a different wagon. Maybe Riptide was your partner, so you didn't want to vote for them, but you also couldn't drum up a convincing enough case on Cho in time to hop on the wagon before it hit L-1.

OK I'm ready to vote Cho. This looks much more like the townTSO I'm familiar with than the scumTSO. Also, people's defenses of Cho against TSO's case haven't convinced me as much as what I've seen from her slot (or from most of TSO's case). Also:

It's natural that your suspicion of Cho is fading; she's lurking out the pressure like a true scumfuck.

This is a very good point. This is something that I have deliberately done as scum before, and it worked like a charm.

VOTE: Cho

@Dunham: would you mind giving a serious response to my question, or was #89 as serious a response as I'm going to get?

@BE - The fact you called out my vote on Cho and not this one really bugs me.

Please elaborate on why he should have called me out for my vote instead of/along with yours, because from where I'm sitting this looks like a very sneaky way of pushing suspicion on to somebody else.

@TSO and Jargonaut: If you were to vote for anybody right now, who would it be?

@Rubicon and The Betting Pool: I'd like to hear some more explanation for your votes.

@TSO, Jargonaut, TBP and Rubicon: I asked you questions on the last page.

Like I said, no time brother, many apologies. Will do tomorrow. ugh.

idk about tool. you're right that his push was weak, bad, whatever, but I've played scum with tool before and when he interacts with you, he puts in effort. if him and Jargo were scumbuddies, meta tells me his reaction would be a lot more concerted. I don't really know his town meta, I guess.

Open 545, btw.

lazy and antitown as it sounds, I really like tool and I'd love him to be Town, so I may be a little stubborn.

don't worry, though, I won't hesitate to give my vote if I think he's scum.

tool <3

What stage in the argument would you think tool realised they were being ignored?

I meant to do some more work on this game today but IRL stuff happened. I'll get to looking through ISOs tomorrow.

So for now, here's what I have to say. BPC looks very town to me, because why would scum hammer a mislynch when they had two people who had already declared intent to hammer that mislynch?

TSO looks town for almost the same reason -- Rubicon had already declared intent to hammer, so why declare intent to hammer?

So assuming neither of them are scum and there are two scum remaining, I have a 50% chance of hitting scum with my vote.

As for SK's case:

So let's summarize
tool said "you did this thing which I think is scummy"
Jargo said "it is not scummy and you didn't note any scum motivation"
tool said "I did indeed note scum motivation and here are examples"
Jargo said "ONE (1) of those examples is from after I asked the question!!! conversation over!!!"
tool said "okay"

Let me ask you this -- did

you

think there was anything productive going on in that conversation? I didn't. We were going around in circles. I had already stated my beliefs and saw no reason to carry on. Jargonaut remained one of the scummier-looking people in the playerlist to me, and that was that.

tool did not point out the gigantic logical fallacy made by Jargo.

I learned very early on when I came back to this site that logical fallacies are committed just as readily -- sometimes moreso -- by town as they are by scum.

tool did not actually try to convince anyone of Jargo's scumminess besides Jargo herself. tool was making a lot of noise while trying not actually to be heard.

I wasn't making my posts in a vacuum; everyone could see my case. People generally chose not to respond or didn't agree. Meanwhile I had this other player, B_E, who looked much worse to me -- so I stuck with that wagon instead.

Spoiler: Jargonaut

-Votes TSO in #67, second post of the game. Suggests TSO isn't partner.
-Then unvotes TSO for weak reasons when pressed by Cho in #209. Suggests partner, but I'd tip the balance in favor of TSO not being a partner because why vote for him in the first place that early instead of someone else?
-Votes Riptide in #316. This was the third vote on the Riptide wagon and it took 6 to lynch so she put Riptide at L-3. The only other vote was Egg's on Dunhamganger, so it didn't really have a competing wagon at the time. Could be bussing.
-Unvotes Riptide in #398 because she looked through their ISO and found that they didn't look as bad as she remembered without doing work. This was when the wagon had come down to only two votes, Jargonaut included. Fits into the bussing theory because Jargonaut may have panicked upon seeing that her partner was the early wagon with momentum, hopped on, then come back off. Weak reasoning supports that as well because it was shallow enough that it could have just been scum being lazy.
-#403 supports Riptide as a partner as well:

Also, I thought your working theory was that BE was my partner. Now I'm with Riptide?

...because I had only suggested that it was possible that she was partners with Riptide and she takes it as "he accused me of being partners with Riptide" -- this point's not the strongest because it could have also just been Jarg flailing and grabbing at anything to discredit my arguments
-#470, calls B_E scummy for not explaining his case against Riptide, when literally Jarg's whole Riptide case was "I agree with Cho." Almost seems like a Freudian slip.
-Only interaction with TBP is asking for a prod in #316 -- null.
-Doesn't interact with Dun slot much. When she does it's half null questions and half defending Dun. See #398 and #477 for defense.

Spoiler: Dunhamganger/SleepyKrew

-Dun doesn't interact a whole lot with Jargonaut, answers two innocent questions in one post.
-SK hops on largest wagon that's not him as soon as he joins the game (votes for B_E, is 3rd vote with 6 needed; wagon on him was at 4, so L-2). Generally this makes me lean scum, but B _E did look pretty terrible and he had reasoning, so this makes me lean more toward null.
-Tunnels B_E until he's lynched.
-Gets in an argument with BPC.
-#570/572, dodges attempt to get him to form read on BPC. This looks scummy to me because it denies information to town -- why not just say how he felt about BPC? The given reasoning is that the game was headed toward nighttime, which seems weak to me. What's the downside in just giving a read?
-Very little interaction with Jargonaut.

Spoiler: Riptide

-Gets on Cho wagon pretty early (#54, third vote with 7 needed I believe), so doesn't look too opportunistic. Provides plenty of reasoning, doesn't seem too weak. Nothing too scummy here IMO.
-Going to lengths of building case during night on Elyse does suggest town. Isn't an untouchable argument though -- case could have been developed solely to grab towncred and could have been developed after they said they'd written it. #440 lends some support to that theory. Overall, I'd give the edge to town on this one.
-Overall, very few interactions with Jargo despite being a pretty active player. That's a point in the scum category.

Spoiler: The Betting Pool

-Leans toward voting Cho in #76 (second post of the game from this slot) when Cho was at L-2. Doesn't vote Cho until 90 posts later (#164), putting Cho at L-2. Seems a little like scum cautiousness to me, but reasoning is solid enough when they do make the vote.
-Barely posts for the rest of D1 -- that seems scummy to me.
-Dun vote in #379 was a little weird, unexplained, and not really explained when I questioned it later on.
-Literally no mentions of Jargonaut from this slot until after she's dead.

VOTE: The Betting Pool

The extreme lack of interaction between the Jargonaut slot and the TBP slot is not a good sign, and neither was the lack of posting after voting Cho D1 or TBP's vote on Dun/dodging of explanation of why the vote was placed.

Second choice would be Sleepy, third would be Riptide.

Would like others to give their opinions on SK, TBP and Riptide as well.

Will go through ISOs of BPC, TSO and Egg next. I think they're all town (especially Egg and BPC), but you can never be too cautious. Elyse taught me that.

Do you think there was scum on the B_E wagon?

Well we already know there was at least one scum on the wagon, but yes -- I believe there was another. For reference, here's all the votes on the B_E wagon when he was lynched:

Vote Count 2.11

Burning_Earth

(6)

toolenduso,

MTD

, SleepyKrew, The Betting Pool,

Jargonaut

, BipolarChemist

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

B_E looked bad, I had already done a lot of legwork in building a case on him and he kept making himself look worse. I think it would be hard for scum to resist hopping onto that wagon.

Spoiler: MnemonicDevice/BipolarChemist

Mnemonic did nothing that indicates alignment to me.

-BPC makes a pretty good entrance and appears to be scumhunting.
-The weirdness starts in #490, where he says B_E feels like lynchbait, but he has a scumread on him, but he might not be scummy.
-Gets in an argument with SK about waffling/scumminess/etc.
-#506/509, attacks SK's case against B_E.
-#512, says he doesn't think B_E is town.
-#555, says B_E is being scummy, but BPC has a bad feeling about the B_E lynch. Reiterates that B_E is scummy, but BPC might be wrong about B_E being scummy, but B_E should die anyway.
-#575, BPC hammers B_E and says B_E is buddying him and the conversation is going nowhere. Rubicon and TSO had already declared intent to hammer, so I just can't really think of a realistic scum motivation behind this hammer unless BPCscum just didn't care about the game that much and wanted to secure a mislynch and didn't care about his own slot anymore.

Spoiler: TSO

-#28, starts off by placing second vote on Cho.
-Pushes Cho wagon hard, getting more aggressive and frustrated as he does (see #51, #57, #123, #124 and #126), which reminds me of TSO's town game and seems different from his scum game. As town, I saw TSO get frustrated, angry and aggressively push people where he wants them to go. As scum, I saw TSO take his time, consider his options and play without putting himself in the spotlight.
-#119, big case against Cho.
-The rest of D1 was TSO pushing the Cho wagon. Again, in my experience with him that's more how he plays as town. As scum he tends to put himself in a less active role and leaves multiple options open for lynches.
-D2, TSO starts pushing B_E but doesn't vote (see #335).
-#365, dismisses my case against Jargonaut.
-#414, opposes Dunham wagon despite the fact that it's the largest wagon (4 votes at the time, with 6 needed, so L-2). Says Jargonaut would be town if forced to give read.
-#427, calls one of Jargonaut's posts strange. I could take TSO's interactions with Jargonaut as either town or scumpartner with equal plausibility -- the null-ness of TSO's read on Jargo is what I would expect from a partner, but his interactions with that slot don't look particularly different from his interactions with confirmed town slots like Rubicon and MTD.
-#554, states intent to hammer B_E. This was made one day after Rubicon declared intent to hammer. I have a hard time justifying this from a scum perspective too, especially since we know Rubicon is town. If TSOscum saw a townie willing to hammer a mislynch, why would he offer to do it himself?

Spoiler: Egg

-I'd do a more in-depth read of Egg's ISO if I thought there was any reason to doubt his claim, but scum fakeclaiming vig at this point would guarantee that they wouldn't live to the end of the game and there haven't been any counterclaims.
-So the only thing to report from Egg's ISO right now is that I didn't see any crumbs as to who he was going to shoot.

tl;dr -- I didn't really see anything that changed my mind about any of these people. Reads list, from most towny to most scummy:

Egg
BipolarChemist
TSO
Riptide
SleepyKrew
The Betting Pool

There's a lot of stuff I'm not going to comment on. Tool-SK bores me to death, to be honest; I don't think I'm going to vote tool today ever.

I'm not scumreading TBP as strongly as Riptide/SK at the moment; he just feels like a mislynch. Not a scum-pushed mislynch, but a mislynch nonetheless.

Egg, you need to discuss your Vig shot with us. Who are you hitting?

Still here. I kind of want to look over this again to see if the time away from the game changes my perspective at all. I'll be pretty busy this week though, so...not entirely sure when that will happen.

@TSO: What about the site downtime made you more paranoid?

Re-read:

TBP

-Comes across as semi-active. Not quite stepping into the spotlight and not quite lurking, but kind of just participating enough. That in itself is not scummy, but when you factor in the consistent participation in wagons it does begin to look like scum-motivated behavior.
-#323 also looks scummy. TBP says that B_E's hammer looks like town, but agrees that town should probably lynch B_E. Lynching somebody you think is town is always hard to justify, but the justification TBP provides ("it's a glaring point that will hurt town later if it's not resolved") is especially hard to swallow. Why would town want to lynch somebody they think is town without trying to convince other townies that the hammer didn't come from scum first? This looks like scum pushing town toward a mislynch while trying to avoid being blatant/inventing reasons to do so.
-Play has felt more genuine after being pressured/sitting at L-1 and L-2 for a while, but I don't place that out of the reach of capability for the players in the slot as scum.

BPC

-BPC's interactions with the playerlist upon replacing in seem pretty genuine to me. He pushed people, asked legitimate comments and applied pressure that looked like he was trying to move the game forward and not just score the easiest lynch.
-#490 strikes me as pretty town. I just feel like scum wouldn't want to discredit one of their own reads like that, especially when it's on a player who looks like they're headed for a lynch.
-Looking back on it, the waffling on B_E actually makes me lean more town. Again, it just doesn't seem like something scum would do. I feel like if BPC were scum he would have either committed to one read on B_E and stuck with it, or transitioned as subtly as possible -- not openly and transparently waffled back and forth and then dropped a hammer when he could have let somebody else do the dirty work for him. The waffling has a very plausible town explanation: wrestling publicly with a read because as town, you can't be sure until you see that player's flip.

Dun/SK

-Dun's play looked pretty awful to me but then I did my meta read on him and found out that he plays like that as town so now I don't feel so confident in reading dun. What I will say is that the voting pattern looked somewhat opportunistic (MTD -> Riptide sheep -> Cho sheep)
-#465 shows genuine effort to build a case on B_E, but it's not so well-done that I couldn't see it coming from SKscum.
-It's interesting how SK got in this extended argument with BPC without voting for him -- he's pointing out flaws (waffling, mainly), but not voting based on them. Or even really scumreading BPC for it. Which seems contradictory when you consider that in #613 he says he probably would have been all over Jargonaut had I pointed out the flaws in her posting.
-I also get vaguely towny vibes upon rereading SK's general interactions with other people -- I guess it just feels like his attitude of confronting people is town-motivated, but it's kind of hard for me to articulate fully why I think that.
-That being said, the way SK likes to vote somebody at the beginning of the day and then not budge doesn't sit too well with me. That part of his play leads me to believe that he's got a target in mind and lacks the towny paranoia to seriously consider other people.
-The case against me is still the thing that sits the worst with me in SK's ISO. It just feels like he was looking for reasons to scumread me without genuinely caring whether I really looked scummy for those reasons.

TSO

-My previously-articulated meta argument still stands.
-There is one thing that looks scummy to me in TSO's early D1 play, and that's his point that Cho including herself in her "unlynchables" list is scummy. That's just such a weak point to me that it looks like TSO was reaching for reasons.
-Post #119 and TSO's subsequent reaction to B_E's dismissal of his case reads as genuine to me.
-His interactions with other players read as genuinely trying to get reads to me; #634 is a good example of this.
-TSO has placed very few votes in this game (actually, I think the only vote he's made was on Cho), which has a solid scum explanation (grabbing towncred by avoiding mislynches) and a town explanation (being unsure of himself, decreased confidence after driving home the first mislynch). I guess if I had to choose which explanation seems more likely to me, it would be the town one -- it holds up with the overall arc of TSO's play. And again, he did attach himself to the B_E lynch even if he didn't actually vote for him, which seems towny to me because he could have just hung back and let Rubicon look scummy for hammering the mislynch.

Riptide

-It's not that this slot doesn't engage people -- they do. It's that the reasoning they use in their arguments just generally isn't very strong (see #78, 150, 405). That rings somewhat scummy to me, because having trouble offering genuine reasoning can be a symptom of scum not truly having genuine reasoning.
-The part about writing a case against Elyse during the night does strike me as town. It's actually kind of hard to reconcile that with Riptide being scum.
-I said it before, but #722 is weird to me. Was Rip saying they were paranoid of active people? Because, who was even active in the game when they posted that?

Egg

-Yeah, Egg is confirmed. No need to reread, really.

So that didn't really change my reads much but I'm glad I did it because I did notice a few specific things I didn't before. Looking forward to TBP's next posts.

Hey tool, what exactly are your reads? They're not really that clear to me.

I'm making it as Egg --> BPC ---> TSO ---> TBP ---> SK ---> Riptide, from T-S, but you should correct this.

Also, I don't remember your meta argument. Link me.

Hey tool, what exactly are your reads? They're not really that clear to me.

I'm making it as Egg --> BPC ---> TSO ---> TBP ---> SK ---> Riptide, from T-S, but you should correct this.

Towniest to scummiest:

Egg
BPC
TSO
Riptide
SK
TBP

The reread was because I wanted to see if the time away from the game changed my reads at all, but it didn't really. TBP is still the player I feel most comfortable lynching.

Also, I don't remember your meta argument. Link me.

I feel like I've done it a few times, but #319 seems to be the most complete version.

The reason I said that my paranoia was in the opposite way as TSO's, I was saying that I was thinking everyone was town.

...you were paranoid of people being town? That doesn't make sense to me.

fferyllt's entrance seems quite towny, but it's also shown me that she's likely just a strong player all-around, which means it should be well within her capabilities to replace into a game as scum and look very towny. I'll want to look at some of her meta to get a better read, but I doubt I'll be able to before deadline. fferyllt, could you point me to some of your completed games where you replaced in?

Also, I don't remember your meta argument. Link me.

I feel like I've done it a few times, but #319 seems to be the most complete version.

But doesn't this meta show that I tend to play aggressively as town, which matches up with this game?

But doesn't this meta show that I tend to play aggressively as town, which matches up with this game?

...yes. That's what I've been saying.

Now's goodish. I tend to get slices of time for mafia throughout the day.

I'm procrastinating about more ISOs atm.

Who's your top scumread at present?

But doesn't this meta show that I tend to play aggressively as town, which matches up with this game?

...yes. That's what I've been saying.

Errr... right. I thought you were calling me scum for this.

before I look at any teams I think it's only fair to admit that Riptide/TBP is my first pick. I'll try not to be biased, but no promises.

Could you explain why you think this?

I won't be awake when deadline happens, but I'll check before I go to bed, which will be an hour or so before deadline. I'm still most comfortable with a TBP lynch.

A scum vig would mean that Egg shot Jargo, which makes no sense. Egg is most definitely town.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Woah. That was part of me attempting to ISO Tool and TSO's reactions. I didn't mean for that to be there.

@Mod - If you could delete all those quotes that would be fantastic.

- Dice

[Riptide]

Woah. That was part of me attempting to ISO Tool and TSO's reactions. I didn't mean for that to be there.

@Mod - If you could delete all those quotes that would be fantastic.

- Dice

Forgot to bold it. Double my bad.

[Riptide]

Or maybe I'm just confident? I understand I'm being scum read by everyone alive and that town will lose if I'm lynched, but this is not the time for me to spas out about how I am town. This is time for me to take some time and show you everyone the reactions between TSO and Ffery and Tool, so that you will realize TSO is actually scum.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure when the ISOs will come. I hope by tomorrow, but if not, it will probably be more like Sunday because I'm busy Saturday.

Also, TSO is making a big deal out of his claim but he claimed something that was

A) Unprovable
B) Guaranteed him a spot in LYLO if we would have lynched his partner

Plus, the Tool/SK argument made me completely sure on TSO's scum win condition, so the claim didn't really matter that much to me.

[Riptide]

Explain (B).

And how does the argument between tool and SK reflect on TSO's wincon?

Alright, so let's play out this scenario. I'm town. TSO's scum. One of Tool/Ffery is scum. Let's say we decided to lynch one of, and we lynched the scum. Then, TSO had an excuse to be alive in LYLO because scum wouldn't shoot him. Actually as I'm typing this I realize Egg will get shot no matter what because he's confo town, so I guess this point is kind of null.

Like I said, SK starting an argument against his own scum buddy just wouldn't make sense. That would've taken some serious planning, to which I would applaud them heavily. Scum could do that in theory, but the more I thought about it, the less likely I thought scum would do that after losing their buddy.

[Riptide]

...and? we lynch him today, we worry about his partner tomorrow.

unless you mean you don't think he's scum, in which case I'd ask you to look at how he's treating my claim. It literally did not change his viewpoint whatsoever. that's scum as fuck.

Of course, you would push that off untiil next day because there won't be a next day if I'm lynched. Town will lose, and you and your buddy will win.

[Riptide]

Why do you have tool as more likely than my slot?

What do you mean?

[Riptide]

Where did I say that?

[Riptide]

Maybe you didn't. I had kinda come away with that impression from an earlier post.

From just what I've seen recently, I am slightly leaning Tool/TSO, but that's not really to strong. You and TSO had engaged in a lot of discussion, while Tool didn't have nearly as much and was kind of laying low. As I said before, once my ISOs are done, I feel like I should have a clear grasp on who TSO's partner is.

[Riptide]

Or maybe I'm just confident? I understand I'm being scum read by everyone alive and that town will lose if I'm lynched, but this is not the time for me to spas out about how I am town. This is time for me to take some time and show you everyone the reactions between TSO and Ffery and Tool, so that you will realize TSO is actually scum.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure when the ISOs will come. I hope by tomorrow, but if not, it will probably be more like Sunday because I'm busy Saturday.

Also, TSO is making a big deal out of his claim but he claimed something that was

A) Unprovable
B) Guaranteed him a spot in LYLO if we would have lynched his partner

Plus, the Tool/SK argument made me completely sure on TSO's scum win condition, so the claim didn't really matter that much to me.

You mean this, Ffery?

[Riptide]

Phone post - Wish I had time discuss and respond, but I won't have time until Sunday. (I think HS is working on some research)

Ffery - Would you interested in seeing my scum meta? While it is offsite, I think if you read even one of the games you would see how completely different my town game is from my scum game.

I would hope Egg and Tool would read it as well, but I know how enthusiastic ffery is about her research.

[Riptide]

Lol, Tales of You. More like "Tales of Wish You Were There"

Yeah, I really wish we had a ISO system.

I am Kirby on this site, and I only have 3 scum games.

http://www.sixprizes.com/forums/threads ... win.10863/
^This game was my most recent scum game and a very unlucky one for me. The town PRs were split into even/odd nights (1 odd night doc, 1 even night doc, one odd night cop, one even night cop; also scum team didn't know each other until night 1) If a lynch wasn't reached, RNG ate one player. That lucky player day 1 was our Godfather. Day 2 cop revealed guilty on my other partner, then I got PoE'd.

http://www.sixprizes.com/forums/threads ... win.10401/
^You don't have to read this one, but to summarize my experience, I got day vigged day 1.

http://www.sixprizes.com/forums/threads ... -win.8817/
^Pretty sure this is my first legit game ever, or maybe second. Game was going well until one person got modkilled, then we all collapsed.

I've some tough luck as scum, but never really played all too great.

[Riptide]

I've played a couple games with you, (watched over tales of you a little bit) and you seem to be the replacement who likes to check every corner. (This game especially)

[Riptide]

Reading up now.

Yeah I think scum would have quickhammered by now so one of TSO/Riptide has to be scum. I'm pretty much ready to vote Riptide. Ffery and Tool, what do you think?

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum, one of them should vote me first. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

[Riptide]

It's so fucking obvious you're scum because you fail to realise that action gives you as Town a 50% lose chance. You can't even fake the Town mindset that's a minimum for good scumplay.

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum, one of them should vote me first. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

The message I take away from this is that anyone besides Egg who votes you is scum. I don't understand how that makes sense from RipTown PoV, because both myself and fferyllt have leaned/outright stated we think you're scum. Since you're convinced TSO is scum, it doesn't make sense that both me and ffery could be scum as well.

Actually, the more I try to wrap my head around that post, the less I understand what you're saying from a town perspective.

[Riptide]

It's so fucking obvious you're scum because you fail to realise that action gives you as Town a 50% lose chance. You can't even fake the Town mindset that's a minimum for good scumplay.

Duh, obviously I knew that, but your too busy trying to piss off on me, your not reading my posts clearly enough. I was saying if someone votes me, it shouldn't be Egg. I never said someone should vote me. I wish people would realize how scummy it is when you piss off on me every few posts and have no backbone behind it, but continue to leave yourself on cruise control if you wish.

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum, one of them should vote me first. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

The message I take away from this is that anyone besides Egg who votes you is scum. I don't understand how that makes sense from RipTown PoV, because both myself and fferyllt have leaned/outright stated we think you're scum. Since you're convinced TSO is scum, it doesn't make sense that both me and ffery could be scum as well.

Actually, the more I try to wrap my head around that post, the less I understand what you're saying from a town perspective.

No, I never said that. Hell, even at the end I said that I wish scum would vote me, so I can figure out the scum team and this game will be easier. I want whoever is town out of you to hold onto your vote.

[Riptide]

@Tool - The main point of me posting my meta was to show you guys my inexperience as scum, and how uncomfortable I am as scum because of that lack of experience. While I don't know if it really showed you an accurate comparison of this game, it at least showed you some of my habits as scum, but it also shows you how much time I have had to develop my confidence as town. Also, the point about hydra is kind of null because it has been mainly me this game.

I swear tool, if you use that argument that I post that I'm busy as scum, you will piss me off on new levels. People tried to use that argument against me in one game, and I was town, and it was the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

[Riptide]

I wish people would realize how scummy it is when you piss off on me every few posts and have no backbone behind it, but continue to leave yourself on cruise control if you wish.

Quit your AtE, it's not going to work. I wanted to lynch you yesterday and I've said nothing but that today; backbone is one thing I don't lack. You're confirmed scum.

Quit your whining, that's not even AtE, and if you wanted to lynch me yesterday, you should have been more vocal, and not backed off, so you could let TBP be lynched first.

No, I never said that. Hell, even at the end I said that I wish scum would vote me, so I can figure out the scum team and this game will be easier. I want whoever is town out of you to hold onto your vote.

You didn't say you wished scum would vote you, you said:

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum,

one of them should vote me first

. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

Which says to me that you don't know which one of us is scum but you want one of us to vote you.

I guess I misread it/you worded it poorly, but the way you explained the post just makes me think now that it basically means nothing. Kind of like saying "I wish scum would just tell me who they are."

So that clears that up. As for your thing about how TSO's reaction makes him look scummy...you've been latching onto everything he's said since pretty much the beginning of D5 and it's clearly become confirmation bias, so it doesn't really sway me too much.

Same goes for TSO -- I feel like most of his posts today have been tunnelling on Rip.

TSO, I'd like to hear who you think is Rip's partner.

Rip -- do you still think you're going to post your ISO reads/thoughts on who TSO's partner is today?

The point of the post was to get Egg NOT to vote first. It was also sort of a way to goad scum into voting me, albeit not that effective when you have to explain it. I want to hope I'll get the ISOs done tonight, but given that I'm still really tired and it's not even 6 yet, I might have a hard time. I think HS is actually doing some work, so he might have something done sooner than me.

no, tool, he's just scum.

Can you explain why RipScum would post that?

Can you explain why RipTown would post that? Can you explain why RipTown would attempt to goad scum into voting him when literally everyone thinks he's scum and Town would then be a vote away from losing? He's barely even fighting his lynch, he hasn't posted in days.

Duh because I'm town, and you can't see the situation because you're scum. If the second scum votes me, then I won't be quicklynched. If I show everyone I'm town, and everyone sees that and lynches you, then the town wins the game. Also, you know I've been busy, but trying to bring up activity is weak as hell. Both scum and town in my position would want to be active.

Yes, I am going to work on responses to earlier stuff, but I might as well address this newer stuff while you guys are on.

[Riptide]

Can you explain why RipTown would post that? Can you explain why RipTown would attempt to goad scum into voting him when literally everyone thinks he's scum and Town would then be a vote away from losing? He's barely even fighting his lynch, he hasn't posted in days.

I can't really explain his post from either alignment, that's the problem.

Who do -you- think is Riptide's partner?

I feel like fferyllt is the more obvious choice, but I'm starting to get paranoid based on you and Rip's play today that it could be a designed bus. If I were to vote right now for a Rip partner, it would probably be for fferyllt.

@Tool - The main point of me posting my meta was to show you guys my inexperience as scum, and how uncomfortable I am as scum because of that lack of experience. While I don't know if it really showed you an accurate comparison of this game, it at least showed you some of my habits as scum,

The thing is, though, I didn't find any really consistent differences between those games and this one.

I guess it's a perspective thing. I feel like this game I have shown much more confidence, ethic, decent responses as town than me as scum.

but it also shows you how much time I have had to develop my confidence as town.

How does it show me that?

Well if only 3 of my games are scum that means every other game I have played on that site, and every game on this site has been town, which is a lot of town games compared to scum.

Also, the point about hydra is kind of null because it has been mainly me this game.

Maybe like 60% you, but HS has done plenty and there's also a significant number of posts in your ISO where I don't know if it's you or HS. The hydra makes things different because:

1. It means that there are two heads to post, meaning it's harder to compare activity levels between games.
2. Your partner will almost certainly be influencing you in your hydra chat outside the game.

You're right in both accounts. I guess I didn't really think about it that way.

I swear tool, if you use that argument that I post that I'm busy as scum, you will piss me off on new levels. People tried to use that argument against me in one game, and I was town, and it was the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

You being pissed off is no concern of mine. And it's not exactly a central point either; the ultimate point of my post was that I didn't get a whole lot of solid indication from your meta.

Well then, I'm sorry I wasted your time. Hopefully my ISOs will be a lot more telling of my town win condition.

[Riptide]

I wish people would realize how scummy it is when you piss off on me every few posts and have no backbone behind it, but continue to leave yourself on cruise control if you wish.

Quit your AtE, it's not going to work. I wanted to lynch you yesterday and I've said nothing but that today; backbone is one thing I don't lack. You're confirmed scum.

Quit your whining, that's not even AtE, and if you wanted to lynch me yesterday, you should have been more vocal, and not backed off, so you could let TBP be lynched first.

It clearly fucking is AtE, and I openly stated my preference yesterday in #884, so you're wrong here too.

Nope, it's not AtE, but you can keep stating it's AtE if it makes you feel better about being scum. Also, I said if you wanted my lynch you should have been

more

vocal. You were not as vocal as you could have been. PLUS, you didn't even have a vote on me yesterday. Heck, I just looked back. Cho is the ONLY VOTE besides me now you have all game long. Been saving it for a rainy day scum?

No, I never said that. Hell, even at the end I said that I wish scum would vote me, so I can figure out the scum team and this game will be easier. I want whoever is town out of you to hold onto your vote.

You didn't say you wished scum would vote you, you said:

Actually, if Ffery or Tool thinks I'm scum,

one of them should vote me first

. If you vote me now, scum will most certainly quickhammer. If scum votes me now, then I have the scum team figured out.

Which says to me that you don't know which one of us is scum but you want one of us to vote you.

I guess I misread it/you worded it poorly, but the way you explained the post just makes me think now that it basically means nothing. Kind of like saying "I wish scum would just tell me who they are."

So that clears that up. As for your thing about how TSO's reaction makes him look scummy...you've been latching onto everything he's said since pretty much the beginning of D5 and it's clearly become confirmation bias, so it doesn't really sway me too much.

Same goes for TSO -- I feel like most of his posts today have been tunnelling on Rip.

TSO, I'd like to hear who you think is Rip's partner.

Rip -- do you still think you're going to post your ISO reads/thoughts on who TSO's partner is today?

The point of the post was to get Egg NOT to vote first. It was also sort of a way to goad scum into voting me, albeit not that effective when you have to explain it. I want to hope I'll get the ISOs done tonight, but given that I'm still really tired and it's not even 6 yet, I might have a hard time. I think HS is actually doing some work, so he might have something done sooner than me.

So, once my partner had voted you along with the nefarious me, what was your plan then? Wouldn't it make sense that you'd have content at the ready to convince the remaining Town players of your alignment? You don't seem to have much prepared.

Nope I don't have anything ready, but I would have to show Egg and whoever didn't vote me, how you and whoever did vote me are scum together.

no, tool, he's just scum.

Can you explain why RipScum would post that?

Can you explain why RipTown would post that? Can you explain why RipTown would attempt to goad scum into voting him when literally everyone thinks he's scum and Town would then be a vote away from losing? He's barely even fighting his lynch, he hasn't posted in days.

Duh because I'm town, and you can't see the situation because you're scum.

wow nice response, very convincing.

If the second scum votes me, then I won't be quicklynched. If I show everyone I'm town, and everyone sees that and lynches you, then the town wins the game. Also, you know I've been busy, but trying to bring up activity is weak as hell. Both scum and town in my position would want to be active.

This is wrong on multiple levels. Firstly, scum-you knows you're fucked. You're just putting up token resistance and probably trying not to give away meaningful associatives. Secondly, even if I -was- scum and got lynched, Town wouldn't win the game. They would have to successfully lynch my partner. So you're wrong yet again.

Ugh.

I don't even know what token resistance is, but I have posted several times I'm going to start working on ISOs, so this point is crap. Yes, town would win the game, but again you cannot see it because you are scum. If I didn't get quicklynched, the town player who didn't vote and Egg would have two possibilities. A) I'm town, and the other two players are scum. B) I'm scum and either my partner bussed me, or stayed of the wagon. Since I am town, the rest of the town would know the two scum were the people on my wagon.

[Riptide]

Nope. Nope. Nopenopenope. Not happening. In Hunger Games, Kirby, ironically, was scum. I did things that could be seen as being scummy. Heused those and basically just brushed off everything I said with "You're scum so of course you'd say that." Kirby was scum. His only arguements were really "Well scum would obviously say that, he's flailing." I'm not gonna let this happen to me again. Parallelism FTW.

Dammit me

[Riptide]

Yep, you're wrong.

I do have a question for you Egg. Does it not bother you that starting the day, everyone had a scum read on me?

[Riptide]

- Dice

[Riptide]

@Egg Scum have yet to quickhammer T S O as well. And you obviously didn't read Hunger Games yet. I suggest you do.

[Riptide]

Okay, so then scum have yet to quickhammer us. So that point is moot. And I did tell you.

[Riptide]

Nope. Nope. Nopenopenope. Not happening. In Hunger Games, Kirby, ironically, was scum. I did things that could be seen as being scummy. Heused those and basically just brushed off everything I said with "You're scum so of course you'd say that." Kirby was scum. His only arguements were really "Well scum would obviously say that, he's flailing." I'm not gonna let this happen to me again. Parallelism FTW.

[Riptide]

So remember when I asked for TSO's meta? I didn't just leave it there. I decided to take a quick skim over it and found a few interesting notes.

1) Votes - In 3 out of the 5 games, TSO died early. Even considering that, TSO has more votes in each town game than in this one. Voting is one of the most useful tools to townies and this game TSO has been quite conservative with his vote. Why would Town do that?

2) Early death - This isn't that strong of a tell, but TSO is viewed as a very strong player, so much so, he was nightkilled night 1 in two of his meta games and night killed night 2 in one of them. With the super strong start that TSO had, you would think he would be a prime target for scum, but somehow he hasn't been night killed yet. You can argue how this is WIFOM, and I guess this is in some ways, but TSO not dying was something that was bugging me earlier on in this game as well.

Thought I had one more point, but I can't really remember it atm.

Also, those associative tells are super weak. You should try to make up something better, TSO-scum.

- Dice

[Riptide]

A) Unprovable

As usual, this is bullshit. The claim is very provable. It was crumbed and it makes perfect sense with the set-up, neither of which aligns with me fakeclaiming as scum. You've repeatedly skipped over this point because you don't have a response to it, other than vaguely saying it suits any claim, which everyone immediately shot down.

When I said unprovable, I didn't just mean it couldn't be proved correct. I meant it couldn't be proved wrong either. I have no way in proving your claim is false, but you have no way in proving it true. By the looks of your play, you seem to be a very competent player as town and scum. I don't put it past you to fake a crumb.

B) Guaranteed him a spot in LYLO if we would have lynched his partner

This isn't bullshit, it's just nonsense.

Yeah, I kind of realized that as I posted it.

Plus, the Tool/SK argument made me completely sure on TSO's scum win condition, so the claim didn't really matter that much to me.

"I have no explanation for how his claim could be untrue, but it doesn't matter, I'm sure he's scum."

Right because it was your unprovable claim vs. scum starting and arguement against their buddy right after another buddy died. It was an obvious choice, especially having to listen to HS tell me how much he thinks it's TSO.

unless scum are crossvoting atm then the game is now within hammer's reach of scum. :/

...

From town-you point of view, this statement is impossible. If both Riptide, you, Egg and I are Town, there's not enough scum left, ffery. What's up with this?

Or maybe I'm just confident? I understand I'm being scum read by everyone alive and that town will lose if I'm lynched, but this is not the time for me to spas out about how I am town. This is time for me to take some time and show you everyone the reactions between TSO and Ffery and Tool, so that you will realize TSO is actually scum.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure when the ISOs will come. I hope by tomorrow, but if not, it will probably be more like Sunday because I'm busy Saturday.

Also, TSO is making a big deal out of his claim but he claimed something that was

A) Unprovable
B) Guaranteed him a spot in LYLO if we would have lynched his partner

Plus, the Tool/SK argument made me completely sure on TSO's scum win condition, so the claim didn't really matter that much to me.

You mean this, Ffery?

It's all tied up in your confidence. If TSO is town, then his vote on you sets town up to lose. You apparently didn't even entertain that as a possibility. Same with your vote of T S O if you're town.

You have more research to do looking for the other scum, but you have a vote down that if you're actually going to do more research, the result could change your mind.

While I was away, I didn't just put this out of my mind. I would think about it before going to bed or whenever a thought came to me. My final choice came in reading over the SK vs Tool. HS was also telling me since last game day that TSO was scum, and I pretty much ignored him because I was so sure on TBP. I thought about all the possibilities and in the end, TSO being town just didn't make sense to me, so it's not like I threw that vote out there without any thought. I thought about it for some bit before actually voting, which is why I was so confident.

Scum hasn't quickhammered, so it is obvious TSO is scum. The results of my ISO will make me sure on the 2nd scum.

[Riptide]

Votes: I always use meta to refute meta, so here. Micro 312: 2014 Mafia. I died n2 and up to that stage I had voted exactly twice ...so town-TSO doesn't use his vote a huge amount, as you're trying to say I do.

Early death: It's pretty obvious why I didn't die early - n1, scum left me alive because they thought I'd be mislynched for being wrong on Cho. n2, Rubicon simply looked more town than I did. n3 and n4 are probably results of scum Cop because hitting 4 PR's in 4 nights is no coincidence.

If these tells are so weak, why can't you refute them, Dice-scum?

You died night 2. This is day 5. There is a difference.

You should know that that is not how it works. There are occasionally the one or two people that vote the main driver of the past days wagon, but usually that person is not lynched. If I was scum, I'm pretty sure I would've shot you night 1.

I don't know what scum was thinking. In one she's partly defending me, which isn't that strong at all. The other she's voting me, probably so that she doesn't look like she is just bandwagoning.

[Riptide]

@Egg, Tool, and Ffery - I would all like your thoughts on post #1110

- Dice

[Riptide]

@Mod - I'm sorry to inform you that I am going to be very busy for the next few weeks, and I feel like I owe it to the town to finish up this game. I'm going to talk to HS, and if he can't maintain a good enough level activity, then please replace this slot. I'm sorry you have to do this so late in the game, but with the long downtime for the site, I didn't factor in my vacation.

Good luck to all players left in this game. I hope you have fun and make wise decisions.

- Dice

[Riptide]

fuck. This will be interesting for sure. And Egg, OF COURSE IM SAYING THATSXWHAT HES DOING.
Why would I just randomly say that? Why?
-------------------------

Nope. Nope. Nopenopenope. Not happening. In Hunger Games, Kirby, ironically, was scum. I did things that could be seen as being scummy. Heused those and basically just brushed off everything I said with "You're scum so of course you'd say that." Kirby was scum. His only arguements were really "Well scum would obviously say that, he's flailing." I'm not gonna let this happen to me again. Parallelism FTW.

"I looked scummy there, and I look scummy here, but I was scum there and I'm not here, therefore TSO is scum!"

Umm... What. I *looked* scummy in both situations. I wasn't scum there. Dice was, yes, but I wasn't. Yes, you are scum.

Aside from the fact you're confscum, you promised content and never delivered, you have significant associatives to Jargo which I lack, you've looked like scum all game, etc. etc. etc.

Aside from the fact that I actually did NOT promise anything, I missed where you pointed out said associative tells, which I can't say if you do or do not lack because I think they're rather stupid and don't use them, and you're whole D2 was a fucking pity-party after your strong D1 and you were saying it was because your strongest scum read was town. And then it took Dice and I to wake you up after telling you IT HAPPENS ALL THE FUCKING TIME. There was no reason for it at all. That along with what you've been doing this game day is (mostly) why I think you're scum.

[Riptide]

Well I guess we're not getting that analysis from Dice.

Shroomish, are you still planning on posting research? And are you staying in the game?

Dude... I... Ugh... Let's just go with no.
Yes. I'm still in this thing.

[Riptide]

And how exactly would he hammer me, seeing as how there's only one vote on me?

[Riptide]

How did you come up with the first part? And the second part- I'm only kinda trying? Ha funny. I'm still waiting on those associative tells I /Dice had with Jargo.

[Riptide]

TSO is making me uncomfortable. I don't know much about how he usually plays, but I had a game with him a little while back where he used a similar sort of hyper aggression as scum. These posts in particular stand out to me:

Hang this, thanks.
When she flips scum I'm conftown, by the way.

Well, it's a textbook scum response, because it's really vague with no specifics, but its grandeur suggests I have been roaring to all the players since I came in about my incredible amount of

swagger

towniness. The only problem is I haven't.

VOTE: TSO. Why are you trying so hard to look town?

This looks like an early and weak by Jargo on TSO.
360 and 343 seem like weird pseudo-defense of TSO/Defending his TSO vote.

Now those are some pretty damn significant associative tells, aren't they.

[Riptide]

I would refute them, but I've done that about 20. Bloody. Times.

Really? Do tell where you've refuted them as associative tells. Your ISO tells a different story.

And of course mine are so damn different from yours aren't they. Oh wait. No they're not.

From what I can tell you had a scum read on us originally for when we... Voted Rubicon? You used associative tells? When I gave my overnight-Elyse-scum arguement? And from the beginning of D2-On We're your #1 scum read. What have you said recently that makes me scum? I misinterpreted a post, and then ITS SO FUCKING PBVIOUS HES SCUM EVERYTHING HE DOES IS SCUM THIS MINISCULE THING THAT DOESNT MEAN SHIT SO OBVIOUSLY POINTS TO RIPSCUM

[Riptide]

I... You're kidding tool. Once. Maybe twice was there a mention of doing research. There was in no way an avoidance of information. And tool of course it's better to vote now. Cause I just fuvking realized that unless ffery comes back in the next 24 hours town is fucking screwed because the scum team is probably you(tool) and TSO. Fuck.

[Riptide]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

[Riptide]

No, this is not a fake rage. This a rage. I'm just imagining the dead thread being like "Now he finally gets it. Let me get the popcorn."
Dammit ffery.
But let's see if I can get that U just right-
FUUUUUUUUUUUCK

[Riptide]

It's a first for me.

[Riptide]

If I was scum I would be dancing for joy right now. But of course I've been scum before.
This however, is a first time truly raging.

[Riptide]

PoE. It was either you or ffery. I've decided you.
And I keep forgetting dices posts. Fuck.
FUUUUUUUUUUCK
So this is what it feels like to lose an arguement...

[Riptide]

The only thing I have left to say is- look over TSO's posts today and pay attention to just how fucking smug he is.

[Riptide]

I'm gonna hammer myself so scum doesn't get the satisfaction before I hit the sack.

[Riptide]

Ah fuck it it's not like you'll change your mind, Egg.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: HIGHSHROOMISH

[Riptide]

DEEEEEERRRRRRPPPPP
UNVOTE:
VOTE: RIPTIDE

[Riptide]

Damn it was TSO/ffery.

[Riptide]

I shit you not, btw.

[Riptide]

That's what I do in Yugioh. When I know I'm gonna loose I just go kamikaze and take myself out so my opponent doesn't get the satisfaction of doing it themselves.

[Riptide]

I was mostly going for too stupid to be scum towards the end...

P-Edit: Was it? Because tool was gonna do it anyways.

[Riptide]

Yes because I am completely pretending that we just lost.

[Riptide]

Yeah, you guys were all wrong.

Also, a message to the town: If everyone starts off the day with a scum read on us, you should know something is off. That being said, scum played a good game, and as much as I want to yell at TSO for the amount of buttface he was, I know it's all in the scum strategy.

I'll talk more if I get a chance in a week. GG all

- Dice

[Riptide]

Are you trolling us ffery? I hope not.

[Riptide]

Actually, you arguing for a tool lynch would've have been one of the towniest things you could've done.

[Riptide]

And sorry for breaking my V/LA or whatever, but I didn't think I would be able to be on today.

[Riptide]

Wait. Wat. This doesn't make sense.

[Riptide]

Good game...

[Riptide]

Yes.
Guys, next time, you do not fuck with my parallelism. It's a magical thing that has always worked when I use it.
P-Edit: which is what I started to think.