Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Starbuck]

Sorry for my delay into the game, as my signature says I'm currently semi-V/LA due to visiting home until the 16th of Dec. My Great Grandmother passed away and I flew to Connecticut from where I am stationed with the Navy in Sicily. I've been looking forward to this game for awhile, so I hope you all can bear with me for the next week.

Now I'm heading off to catch up.

[Starbuck]

My thoughts from Page 1 to Page 5...

On Elvis & SC

SC seems to get a bit overaggressive over DeathNote's suggested idea to imprint everyone in Post 13, as did Elvis when she voted DeathNote in Post 14. He was just throwing out an idea, and you both overreacted quite a bit. Then Elvis turns around just a few posts later in Post 17 that she likes fast, exciting games and that it really isn't that bad of an idea, but only after SC alluded that it could be okay. This feels like a contradiction to me of her vote of DeathNote.


I'm getting the feeling of elvis and SC buddying a bit. My reasons here are that for one SC voted to imprint both himself and elvis and in Post 119, elvis does the same thing. It just seems like they are trying to work together, as they did when they both shot down DeathNote's idea. Post 119 does nothing but add to my theory.


The following quotes are nothing but WIFOM and make me very uncomfortable imprinting Elvis (or SC, for that matter).

However, I think the odds are hugely in our favor on this. Neither of us knew that mafia can't NK. Therefore neither of us are mafia. Therefore we should be imprinted, and the town can be reasonably sure we are town. This is a huge advantage to us.

I think if I had actually gotten the scum PM I would have read it a little more carefully.

Well, I sort of assumed scum would get a NK to begin with.

Do you think it's possible scum would assume it also even if their PM did not mention it? And that nobody would figure out the truth?

I notice their PM also says they have a QT where they can talk at any time. Do people think it's possible that none of the scum team figured out that they don't have a NK? Or that Iamausername didn't correct them in the QT when they made some mention of NKing?

I also am not a fan of someone who just comes out Day 1 saying that "so&so and so&so are scum" just because you don't like their ideas. Elvis does this in Post 47.

The last thing I'm not a fan of is how overly insulting and condescending elvis has been to quite a few of players. It seems right now that if we don't go with elvis's way, it's the highway. Remember that this is a mafia game and it does get heated, but it doesn't give you a reason to sit and fling ad hom at everyone that you disagree with.

On DeathNote

I definitely don't like his pressure of trying to make everyone choose between either one of his plans.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him.

On TheButtonmen

TheButtonmen does make a very good point in Post 49 and in his original post which was quoted by Elvis as being scummy. While yes, the village has the numbers, the 4 rogue actives know who each other are and know who isn't scum. He also is correct that we can't play this game as normal.

We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.

We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.

This. We need to take everything into account. While I disagree with his plan, he's on the track here.

On VMD

I think VMD's vote on TheButtonmen is a little opportunistic because he wasn't the only one discussing that theory/idea. I don't think he is being against the spirit of the game. Again, here is someone who just happened to bring up an idea that someone else didn't like. It's like the same thing as elvis voting DeathNote because she didn't like his idea.

She unvotes in Post 88 citing that she felt that he was going to cheat in some way. I really think that's a little over the top to assume such a thing. I, for one, am just like you, VMD, where I like to preserve the integrity of the game. I can see where you were coming from with this, but as I said, it just feels a little over the top.

On the theories/ideas

I can see where DeathNote was coming from, especially prior to mod clarifications, but there is just too much that we don't know. Also, with all 4 of the rogues receiving an imprint, it's like we'd be setting ourselves up for failure.

I am also not sure on Limerick's idea, just because it leaves too much open.

While the diceroll idea would be fair and random, it just leaves too much to chance and takes away any discussion we would be able to get.

The scum wouldn't use the NK even if they got it, they'd just be lynched the next day as a result.

The imprints are a subject all of their own. Will we know what imprint the person receives?

Limerick is seeming to allude in Post 43 that we will know. I'm not really comfortable with him making such an assumption. I'm not sure that the mod would give that much away.


I do agree that TheButtonmen's idea is boring and we are here to play mafia. Not vote NL over and over again. I am glad that our mod stepped in and said so as well.

[Starbuck]

Page 5 to Page 8....

On Elvis

I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill, at least not safe enough to auto-confirm people town. And the way elvis words her "revelation" post strikes me as a very, "I've been planning this all along!" sort of thing.

QFT.

But I think this is possibly a REAL way to give the town an advatage here. I think that scum probably knew they had a NK. So giving me and SC imprints is the least risk to the town. I also don't care if I have to be lynched before endgame if my suggestion is SO controversial. I am banking on people seeing the truth in my hypothesis.

Why is it least risky right now to give an imprint to you and/or SC rather than someone else?

I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

If the conclusion came from someone else, other than one of the two of you, then it might look okay. Right now, it really looks like a scum gambit and I'm not at all comfortable with imprinting either of you.

It's like you are trying to force everyone else to view you as confirmed town when you aren't at all confirmed.



I do not like how you answer the question that TheButtonmen asked of SC in Post 125. My reasoning is because you just easily led SC to agree with whatever you said (which lo and behold he did in Post 146). I find this to be very scummy.

[Starbuck]

You know SC...I have DeathNote in my null category right now, but I love how you jump so quick because I mentioned his name in a semi-positive faction and yours and elvis's in not such a positive faction.

This quick overreaction just makes you look scummier.

[Starbuck]

I did an in-depth read. I sat here for about 4 hours this morning taking my time to catch up because everyone has seemed to just write walls of text for this game.

I haven't even done a re-read yet. I hadn't read anything thus far because I am currently semi-V/LA. My great grandmother passed away and I am home in Connecticut (from where I am currently stationed with the Navy in Sicily) visiting my family & friends. We had the memorial service last Saturday.

I posted just so you guys knew that I was around and that I wasn't purposely avoiding the game for any reason. I was supposed to go on a trip to NJ today but my good friend came down with a 101.3 fever, so that got canceled and I figured it would be a good time to fully catch up on the game.

[Starbuck]

Thank you for explaining more, Limerick. I do view you as pro-town. It's just the feeling I got when I was reading.

[Starbuck]

<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

Uh, really? You're calling half of the scum team at the beginning of d1 based on starbuck finding DN only slightly suspicious? That certainly is an overreaction, and a scummy one at that.

Also, wouldn't your vote better serve your theory if placed on DN?

Elvis did this same exact thing in Post 47. She says TheButtonmen and DeathNote are scum.

[Starbuck]

I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.




There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy? You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.

At that point, DeathNote made a suggestion. Later on, yes, he wanted to limit people to two options which I find scummy, but at that point he just merely gave an idea. You blew it completely out of proportion.



I did paraphrase you because I was taking notes in notepad as I caught up. You still only semi-conceded to the idea AFTER SC said it was be decent, but NOT until that point.



If you read the rest of my post, instead of picking apart what you wanted, you would see that I did state my opinion on his idea and that it really wouldn't be a good one.

I also have already stated that I have a null tell currently on DeathNote, due to meta reasons.

[Starbuck]

Again, if you read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I do agree with TheButtonmen that we can't treat this game like a normal game.

It seems as though you are only voting for DeathNote and that you view TheButtonmen as scummy because they disagree with you and vice versa. Right now, according to you, neither one of them could possibly be town because they don't/didn't agree with you. Now, in this last post, you are saying that TheButtonmen is no longer scum in your eyes, but town. How quickly you change your tune.

It seems like he was panicking? I really didn't get that from him. I really just saw him (and DeathNote, for that matter) trying to bring some plans/ideas to the table. It's been you and SC who have overreacted to almost anything anyone else posts.

Vote: Elvis_Knits

Imprint: VMD, lewarcher82, and TheButtonmen

[Starbuck]

I also wanted to add that it seems like you are trying to intimidate others with your long, wall of texts posts. I don't remember you being this way in Twilight, which is why I want to make note of it.

[Starbuck]

You know elvis, all of what you say is coming from someone who's trying to pass herself and SC off as confirmed because you misunderstood a rule.

[Starbuck]

It's also one thing to dislike a plan/idea. It's another to completely overreact to it, and even now that DeathNote has rescinded that it really wasn't the best thought out, you are still all over him or anyone who disagrees with you.

[Starbuck]

Yes, I do. She is trying to pass YOU BOTH off as CONFIRMED now because of that and she has yet to rescind it.

She is scummiest person to me right now and that's why my vote is placed on her.



Those remaining questions are heading into WIFOM territory. So unless, everyone else would like me to answer those, then I will. Right now, I will not.

[Starbuck]

@Starbuck: Do you really get a town read on lewarcher from his one post?

I feel a bit more positive about him being town right now than I do SC or Elvis. I've played with him before and thus far, getting a null/town read.

That's also a loaded question because due to personal obligations, I wasn't able to post until today. That'd be like asking someone else if they think I'm town after I haven't posted for the past few days.

He also paid me the favor of voting to imprint me, so I figured I'd return it.

[Starbuck]

I am not the only person who has dismissed your questions as WIFOM and as distraction from the game. They weren't any type of questions that would help further this game. The fact that you are on this so hard seems like you really want to try and pin something on me.


I discredited Elvis because her theories and such could be discredited. She was wrong. How is it not scummy to try and clear yourself or someone else based on the same thing on Day 1??? It would be completely different if it was someone else saying that you and her were town based on that, but when it's coming from one or the other of you, it's more like "Ooo look what I did!"

I love how you insert your own ideas into what I said to purposely misrepresent me. The situation that I found scummy about you and Elvis was the situation concerning DeathNote, so how could I not mention him when that was what I found to be scummy about the two of you? As I said, I get a null tell on him, but I don't like how the two of you handled that situation, no matter what my read on him was.

[Starbuck]

Those are some strong words there buddy.

Obsession......underhanded defense......

Quite easy for you to go after someone who has pointed out so many faults of yours and Elvis's already.

[Starbuck]

Just a heads up, today is my last day in Connecticut and I fly back to Sicily tomorrow. I will be back to Sicily sometime in the afternoon on Wednesday and I should have a substantial post then.

[Starbuck]

Just checking in from Rome International Airport. I'll be back on base in Sicily tonight and after some well needed sleep and my Statistics final tomorrow, I'll be back in the swing and catching back up with the game.

[Starbuck]

Hey guys, I just got in from my flight from the States to Sicily. I have a Statistics final tonight, but I will be catching up as soon as I can.

[Starbuck]

Page 10 to Page 15

Welcome Farside! I don't think I've had the pleasure of playing with you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, Welcome Reckoner! So nice to have a familiar face.



I still do not see where I was "obsessively defending" DeathNote. The reasons behind SC's vote and Elvis's vote of him were very shoddy and definitely give me the feeling of bussing now that I see his flip. I saw something in both of their full blown attacks on him. It just seems too coordinated.

It almost feels that her attacks of me are coming off as a more personal nature than actually just trying to have fun in a mafia game. I know Elvis has said that she always views me as scum, but I feel as though she's just using that as an excuse.

It probably doesn't matter what I say because Elvis and SC are just going to keep on keeping on about getting me lynched because if DeathNote is scum then Starbuck is 100% scum. I don't see how Deathnotescum = Starbuckscum. I'm getting the feeling of being a scapegoat.

SC's constant misrepresentation and strawmanning of myself is just too much. It seems like I either just really offended him or he's scum trying to shove off a lynch on someone other than himself. He has seemed to be very overaggressive and has quite a bit of overreaction whenever the subject is on me.

The amount of buddying between SC and Elvis is just over the top now. I'm getting called out for buddying when that was not what my posts were about at all.

@SC

I'm not surprised you haven't addressed the content, but it's all there Starbuck. Obsession and underhanded are perfectly fair words for that post. Every section talked about DN. It had nothing to do with having to mention his name - you literally defended him in every section. Look at how much of your post mentions it, it's all there in my post. You CONSTANTLY defend him. If you thought he was town, I'd say it was at least consistent, but you originally said he wasn't completely scummy and now say you think he's null - that's not consistent with your defence. Nor is it consistent with thinking elvis and I are scum together.

I was pointing out the faults of your arguments and elvis's arguments. It just so happened that the situation was about DeathNote. I don't see how that is me defending him when I am pointing out what I see is wrong with what you and elvis are saying.

Because I am both up front about it and actively think elvis is town. Starbuck apparantly think's DN is null read yet defends him constantly. There's a disconnect between her view of him and her defence of him. And she never sets out ot defend him, it just seems to get worked into every facet of her post.

She also continues to say he's null despite her two biggest scumreads being scummy for attacking him. This is not a logically consistent world view.

The Starbuck tell is that she is defending DN in an underhanded fashion. I guess I'm not being clear in why it's scummy. I'll try to be as clear as possible. Starbuck SHOULD think DN is town. She defends him constantly and her two biggest scummy suspects attacked him. But yet she doesn't, if anything she regards him on the scummy side of neutral. (She says he's not completely scummy)
So then go back and have a look at her posts. She's defending him, but she doesn't want to be SEEN to be defending him. And she's doing it A LOT. This to me is the definition of an informed minority tell.

Having played with DeathNote quite a bit, he always is hard to read for me. And again, I was not defending him. This continual misrepresentation of myself is growing old very, very fast.

Because in this theory of the game, Starbuck is defending a buddy. I totally admit my case is absolutely dependent on Starbuck being scum. But mafia is about finding the informed minority, and I'm telling you that is part of it.

So how is it that it's considered that I was "defending my buddy" when it seems as though you and elvis signed a pact before the game even started?

Is defending someone she is not prepared to say is town. Does not acknowledge the defence at all.

Because I wasn't defending him. I was pointing out your faults.

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

But aside from all that, the biggest criticisms of elvis I can see is her 'overreaction' to DN, which of course she can be clared of if he's scum, and her buddying/clearing of me, which again is supported by a DN scumflip.

I'm not comfortable with you trying to set things up. You and Elvis have been your fair share of overbearing thus far in this game. Just because DN flipped scum is not another way that you guys can confirm yourselves as town, and the same goes that it doesn't confirm me as scum.

For anyone thinking I'm scummy for defending elvis, defending my town reads is a BIG part of my game.

The issue that I'm having (and I think others are having as well) as it's not coming off as defending your town read. It's coming off of as in your first post, you were defending elvis. You came straight into the game defending her, and her, you.

@Elvis

Starbuck, please answer this post. It was directed at you.

So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?

He still is voting to imprint everyone except me. How is that pro-town? He may say that he has abandoned his plan, but he really hasn't since he's still voting like he's trying to make it happen.

You are criticising me for not rescinding my imprint on SC and myself. Why would I do that? I'm almost sure he's town. I stand by my theory.

YET, you are not giving Deathnote any problem for failing to unimprint everyone, even after he agreed his plan is bad. At this point, he has admitted his plan is anti-town and yet, he is still voting everyone. And yet, you don't care?

I didn't realize this was directed at me. Thank you for bringing it back up.

It probably doesn't matter what I say, even if I had a chance to answer this prior to Deathnote's flip, because you have your mind set that I'm scum.

I do care, but it still takes more than just his vote to imprint someone. It takes 7 (now 6?) people to imprint someone. His one measly vote on each person really didn't matter.

Thoughts on starbuck: every time I play with her I think she's scum (I think I've played with her in more games than twilight, but I dunno which ones), so I'm trying not to be too judgemental about her at the moment. I'm just pointing out where she possibly missed something from reading too fast, or misinterpreted/misunderstood me. As time goes by, I hope to get a better read on her, and see if me and her can reach some common ground. I feel like she is not listening to me at the moment. I do agree though that she is defending deathnote and lewarcher, which is odd.

I just feel that you are being biased since you just admitted here that you always think I'm scum. I could have missed something because I was taking that day to catch up with game. Now that I'm back at my house in Sicily, I will be re-reading things over again, but your overreactions to just about everything I say has me very wary of you. The same with SC.

You said you feel as though I'm not listening to you, when I have. It actually feels the exact same coming from your side. You have not given me any time of day to consider anything I brought up.

The whole me defending DeathNote thing has been blown out of proportion by both you and SC. I will state again that I was building cases on yourself and SC.

But I'm curious to see as to where I was defending Lewarcher?

If she's scum, you're her buddy.

The above is directed at xRx. So you have the whole scum team nailed now, huh? DeathNote, myself and xRx. So who's your fourth since you seem to throw out accusations left and right?

Also, equating Starbuck defense of DN to me and SC is not a fair comparison. We have a specific reason to think the other is town. Starbuck has no reason to think DN is town. In fact I think she put him at neutral but is defending him. That doesn't make sense.

Blatant misrepresentation. I NEVER said that I felt that DN was town. I said I was null on him. You and SC seem to love to twist people's words to your own benefit.

And what's your specific reason? The fact that you didn't think scum had the NK? Are you still going on about that?

Reckoner seems to be defending Starbuck for no real reason.

So I guess meta means nothing to you then? You said yourself that you always see me as scum. I don't know if this is your bias because I rubbed you the wrong way in Twilight or if you are just using that as an excuse. We have only ever played that game together, so how you could even know my play based on that one game is reaching A LOT.

I do agree with you that it seems odd that xRx had nothing to comment on regarding what I said.

Meanwhile we have Starbuck defending DN and lewarcher (both for essentially no reason), reckoner replaces lew archer and defends starbuck (for meta reasons while refusing to even comment on anything she's said). Interesting how the allegiance between starbuck and lewarcher carried over to reckoner. Axis of evil right there.

Again, wasn't defending Deathnote.

Also again, where exactly was I defending Lewarcher?

I guess no one else but you and SC can have meta reads on each other. Hmm, a bit hypocritical there, don't cha think?

@TheButtonmen

Look at it this way - why would town defend someone she thinks is at BEST null? Why would she do it so often?

See your throwing around words like "Obsessive" and "Often" allot yet Starbuck defended Deathnote as far as I can tell in all of 2 posts, you on the other hand have defended Elvis in 6-7 times. So if your read on Starbuck is due to her defending Deathnote "Obsessively" then I'd love to know why your so confident in your Elvis read that you defending her three times more often then a "Obsessive" amount

This. OMG This.

I find with meta's like Death Notes I find it allot harder to find connections / scumtells due to second guessing and not knowing how much to read into their reactions to pressure.

Welcome to how I feel whenever I play with DeathNote.

@VMD

I want to get it out there that I'm also giving DN the benefit of the doubt for now due to meta reasons; I have read bits and pieces of many games on this website, including a couple that DN was in, and it seems that he always acts like this, and almost always gets lynched for it early on in the game. That said, I certainly don't want to give him an imprint any time soon. People with anti-town metas are far too much of a wildcard to risk something like that.

Thank you for being one of the few people to know where I am coming from when it comes to DeathNote.

Yes, but she reciprocated the buddying. She imprinted him back, and unless she's just terribly, terribly inexperienced with mafia, her reasoning for that imprint is just plain BS.

And you are right. I was curious to see if I just voted to imprint him because he did so for me what the reactions would be.

@Starbuck: Why are you voting to imprint me?

I'm voting to imprint you because I feel that you are pro-town along with TheButtonmen.

On DeathNote

His posts towards the end of page 12, especially when he explicitly stated that he was using appeal to emotion, just screams scum right there. Had I not been with my family and had I been caught up with the game, my vote would have moved right then.

On xRx

Messiah's 236 is a strong post: SC says Starbuck is "obsessed with" and "defending" DN, but someone could just as easily say that he is doing the same with elvis (and vice versa). If it's a scumtell for Starbuck, then it's a scumtell for either elvis or SC. Just because you openly defend someone you read as town (which, way to give NO reasoning behind your unbelievably strong town-read on elvis, SC) doesn't mean that it's more acceptable just because someone thinks the attacks on another null-read are bullshit.

QFT.

@Plum: how many imprints would you give between 1-5, and who are your imprint candidates at the moment?

Actually, let's make that question @EVERYONE.

At this exact moment at your Post 346...

1. Farside
2. VMD
3. TheButtonmen
4. Plum
5. xRx

I also would love to be imprinted. I think that anyone saying that they don't want to be imprinted is a liar.

[Starbuck]

Page 16 to Page 20

I swear it drives me freeking bonkers that every post I read is that unless people are siding with you and elvis they are scum or just not listening. Like wow I'm so not allowed to my opinion everyone. I just be mindless and just listen to EK and SC.

Holy crap, QFT.

On SC

Has this list changed at all?

Elvis - not one person feeling out whether any of my lynch DN then me type plans is a good idea and all of them being rejected out of hand suggests to me that DN is scum for the same reason you just came to your elvis and sc are town conclusion.

I can't speak for everyone, but the reason that I reject your plan has nothing to do with not wanting to lynch DN, it's because of the ridiculous "If I'm town than all of my reads are 100% correct and you should base all of your decisions on those instead of your own reads" thing.

This.

b) That one should not defend someone one thinks is town

No one has said that, the problem is when you defend someone as town with little solid reasoning

Also this.

I concede all points. Not everyone has jumped on the wagon - rather mostly everyone (except DN and Starbuck, I believe) have expressed a willingness to see him lynched.

Way to use my V/LA against me, especially when I posted to check in.

Farside there are eight unique people voting to imprint the three top imprint candidates. I am town and not one of them. That makes at least one scum amongst the eight.

Declaring your towniness with no way to prove it really isn't all that pro-town.

unvote, vote deathnote

executive decision. Let's continue this after a flip.

Executive decision?

Way to cut off the discussion that everyone seemed pretty heavily involved in.

Boom, headshot.

Now, Starbuck should be next. Her post where she constantly defends DeathNote is SIGNIFICANTLY more scummy now.

I understand there is a big negative reaction to quickhammering, but guess what - scum getting imprint powers is a BAD THING and it was going to happen if I'd let that continue.

For all you townies out there - you might not like me or my methods but dammit, listen up. My analysis of the imprinting is IMPORTANT.

If you feel you have to lynch me to be sure I'm telling the truth, then go ahead and do it, just DO NOT IMPRINT ANYONE. Just lynch me, look at the town flip, then look at who you should lynch D2 (cough starbuck cough).

More good options for lynches are anyone who said SC and elvis are scum but DN is MORE scum, because that attitude doesn't make sense and is a clear bus attempt.

Still misrepresenting what I said!

Opportunistic much? Pushing for a quicklynch of myself and all?


Post 485 is reading to me like someone who is flailing.
Post 493 is more OMGUS on people who disagree with him
Post 498 - still setting up lynches I see

On Elvis

And he knows me as a player, so he should have a good read of me. So you should just take what he says more seriously and stop with the paranoia.

But both you and SC have both refuted anyone else's meta reads. So why now should we accept yours?

This is not the first time that people refuse to answer questions posed by other players, insisting that the asker answer the question first or explain why he is asking.

WTF.

THIS IS LAME.

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE ANSWER A QUESTION?

Overreaction much?

I understand that TheButtonmen didn't answer it and I feel that he should, but if SC can't answer that question himself, then I don't think others should either.

At this point I wish I had kept my realization to myself because I could have just voted to imprint him and

known secretly that he is town

without alienating everyone.

Is this you admitting that you know his alignment? Because it seems like a significant scumtell to me.

The thing that really sucks most now is that not only do people not want to imprint either of us, is that people aren't really listening to us. Losing the influence of two town players in a game where 1/3 is scum, is like, really bad. Hopefully as the game progresses though we can look back at the reactions to my theory about me and SC and find the scum easier.

Why are you still talking like you are confirmed when you AREN'T?

On TheButtonmen

I'm opposed to a DN lynch at the moment. Partially because right now it would mean 0 imprints getting handed out today/tonight.

So anyone hammering DN before we can figure out what the plan is in regard to imprints I will assume your scum.

Until this post, I have felt pro-town about TheButtonmen, but this just seems like he was trying to stall the lynch.

FOS: TheButtonmen

[Starbuck]

Page 21 to Page 24

On SC

5 imprints on someone not voting deathnote. Bad times.

Starbuck was imprinting vdm and none of the other top three. More and more likely they are scum together.

I know there are at least two and probably more townies on that imprint wagon. What's so wrong with lynching me or starbuck first? Why do you need to rely on hoping button is town and he gets a useful print when there is more than enough info for more lynches, if not an outright win?

So now that you can't go on and on about DeathNote, you are moving to another tactic. I'm not the only person who has a pro-town read on VMD. So why is it all about me and no one else on her imprint wagon?

Things that make me uneasy: VDM asking what happens if Starbuck is town.

Why does this make you uneasy? Why can't I be town in your eyes? Because I was OBSESSING over DeathNote and being UNDERHANDED with my DEFENSE of DeathNote? *Note the sarcasm please*

On Plum

Starbuck was my next scummiest suspect for similar counts to DN's but not SC's case (though DN flipping scum makes her look no better, to say the least).

So do you have an actual case or is this it?


Also, your Post 517 reads as though you suspect SC more than myself and since you really posted no case on me, it seems as though you are trying to cover his tracks.

FOS: Plum

until she can post a legitimate case

On Elvis

WTF...........................

CAN PEOPLE STOP VOTING SC ALREADY?

If HE F-ING GETS LYNCHED BEFORE I GET A CHANCE TO READ THROUGH THE LAST FEW PAGES I WILL BE RAGE

But you have no problem pushing along a quicklynch on myself before I can catch up.


Post 545 - I don't think I've ever seen someone so eager to lynch me. Are you sure this isn't a personal vendetta?

If starbuck flips town, then we look at other ties to DN, including SC. We weigh that new evidence with other evidence of scummy behavior and arrive at a new conclusion.

But I couldn't possibly be town, no.

On Farside

Post 565 - Way to answer a question meant for someone else. I feel you are a bit misguided here. I have been misrepresented more in this game than any of the games I've played on MS. The fact that thus far you have had no interaction with me makes things quite suspicious.

I do feel still though that you are pro-town, even though this seems very opportunistic.

Vote: SerialClergyman

Imprint: Starbuck, Pug89, VMD, xRx, and Farside

I didn't just want to jump in and imprint myself on the one day that I was able to post when I was in the States. I figure that I probably have no chance of it now, so I might as well vote myself.

The other 4 are people I find to be pro-town. Despite Farside's vote on me, I do feel that she is pro-town.

I am still rather null on Messiah and Limerick.

I'm not comfortable voting to imprint TheButtonmen now after the post I quoted in my last post. I feel that he was trying to stall the DeathNote lynch.

I do not like how Plum casually posted a sentence about me with nothing to support a case with her vote.

We all know how I feel about SC and Elvis.

[Starbuck]

unvote, vote deathnote

executive decision. Let's continue this after a flip.

Executive decision?

Way to cut off the discussion that everyone seemed pretty heavily involved in.

Really odd that you would call me on it, when you yourself pointed out the reason in the same post

You are absolutely right. I am jet lagged like crazy. I have been awake for almost a full day now. I apologize.

I figured SC would pull a last second flip onto DeathNote's wagon. He wasn't getting me lynched so why not bus DeathNote and make me look like scum.

How convenient for him that DeathNote was waiting to be hammered? Wouldn't it make him look more pro-town or CONFIRM (note the sarcasm) him as town because he hammered scum?

[Starbuck]

I'm a little frustrated that things have gotten blown this far out of proportion. It seems as though the scum have used my absence to their advantage.

[Starbuck]

Claim time since I am at L-1. I am town.

[Starbuck]

I was curious to see if I just voted to imprint him because he did so for me what the reactions would be.

I'm voting to imprint you because I feel that you are pro-town along with TheButtonmen.

Were these really your only reasons?

Also, you put Farside at 1 on your town list and me at two, but Farside has been vigorously attacking me and thinks I'm scum. Does this not form a sort of contradiction if you think both of us are town? What do you think of her attacks on me?

Yes, that was my only reason for voting you and TheButtonmen at the time. I'm not the only person who has voted to imprint those that she/he has felt is pro-town.

I didn't do my town list in order from most pro-town to least. It was like 5 am here and I still hadn't slept. I just wrote out who I feel is pro-town.

She's attacking me too. Farside also has her vote on me and not you. So personally, I really think she's reaching because she has had absolutely NO interaction with me. She is going off my one day of posts and almost everything that SC and Elvis say. Although, she says that she thinks Elvis is scum. I don't really have any experience with Farside in a game setting, although I do feel that she is pro-town, even though she is attacking me.

How would it form a contradiction? Townies go at each others throats more often than scum do. I think her post about my connection to you is another thing that's reaching. But she has built case where other people have not. For me, that gives her townie points.

[Starbuck]

Farside is scumhunting. Far better than most other people. So therefore, I feel she is protown, although I do disagree a bit with her case me.

See, I'm not like you and SC. I can disagree with someone's case on me, but still see that they are scumhunting. Rather than, "OMG she won't follow what we say! She's scum!"

[Starbuck]

The night isn't really lost to us because we can no-lynch and go directly to night whenever we want. All SC did was prevent us from imprinting without information. All he did was give us the information of the deathnote flip to work with.

The information he's been oh so sure of from the start.

So why am I getting beat over the head for my supposed defense of DeathNote when that's all Elvis and SC have been doing for each other? Since page 1, I might add.

I'd really appreciate an answer to that question from people other than Elvis and SC.

[Starbuck]

Where "didn't I see" that he was scum?

Also for that matter, I have quite a number of questions based towards you in my catch up posts. I'd greatly appreciate it if you didn't ignore them.

[Starbuck]

Welcome to what I've been dealing with, Farside.

Constant misrepresentations.

[Starbuck]

I am town and my flip hopefully will cause your death.

[Starbuck]

This has been the most opportunistic scum game that I have ever seen. Great job and bussing guys.

Town, you really need to smarten up and stop letting scum lead the way.

[Starbuck]

unvote, vote: Starbuck

Her "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive.

Because I didn't defend him. I was attacking SC and Elvis, but apparently you are too easily blinded by them to think for yourself.

[Starbuck]

Also town, once my flip shows that I am truly one of your own, please go back and re-read everything that I have said.

And for the record, SC, Deathnotescum DOES NOT EQUAL Starbuckscum.


Prepare yourselves for SC and Elvis to go, "But she was so scummy" and "I never thought she could be town". How does it feel to be wrong?

Elvis, I hope this game alone makes you think twice about my alignment now, since this is the 2nd game we played together and you think you know my meta so well.

[Starbuck]

I'm just wondering where our mod is so he can confirm that I am town and you guys can move on with tomorrow and get to lynching people who are actually scum, rather than mislynching your own.

[Starbuck]

Also, don't think the scum were actually waiting for me to get back. They just wanted me to post something so it looks like they waited for me to post before hammering.

[Starbuck]

You lynched me for something that you misrepresented me doing! That's SCUMMY, my dear.

I don't find you frustrating. I actually like you, but I don't like how you apparently couldn't see that I was ATTACKING you and SC, and not defending DeathNote.

I'm pretty sure at this point that you are scum.

[Starbuck]

Also, you should try to separate being in a game from just liking the same things. I'm pretty sure we'd get along.

[Starbuck]

Get ready to vote EK, farside.

[Starbuck]

Messiah's quick hammer of myself is Scummy times Infinity. So I decided to help the town and do an ISO read of him.


The main thing that bothers me is that it really has seemed that Messiah was defending myself a good chunk of the time. His quick flip to be my hammer really surprised me. He changes his tune in Post 573 and in his very next post he hammers me because he thinks that my "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive. I'm guessing that Messiah skimmed all of my catch up posts, way to make me waste my time. If you flip town at all, I will definitely be making sure not to ever play a game with you again because that hammer was scummier than SC's.

Also, WTF on the following:

She did quite a few things to defend him that no one else did, such as referring to ek's original DN vote as opportunistic, calling SC's reaction overaggressive or stating "I could see where deathnote was coming from".(The former two being chainsaw defense as opposed to simply defending him).

EK's vote was opportunistic. How is that me defending DeathNote?
SC's reaction was overaggressive. How is that me defending DeathNote?

Nice misrep there bud. You took part of my sentence from that post to make yourself look better, as has already been pointed out.


He also was going after SC almost as much as I was and then he posts the following:

Because I didn't defend him. I was attacking SC and Elvis, but apparently you are too easily blinded by them to think for yourself.

Heh, maybe. I've wanted SC lynched since day 1, but his posts following DN's flip felt sincere to me at the time and that was enough to temporarily
"blind" me, I guess. I don't plan on making that mistake again.

One thing that sticks out to me is Post 28. He says he likes Limerick's plan of imprinting one person and then no lynching. This is bothersome because this is not how you play mafia. But then in Post 76, he says:

That being said, though, I'd prefer to actually play mafia rather than abuse a game mechanic to pull off an effortless win.

I know the above is about TheButtonmen, but both ideas would "abuse a game mechanic to pull off an effortless win". So, why is it okay for Limerick but not okay for TheButtonmen?




The next thing is a bit of parroting...

Take a look at Post 82:

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a very good point. He presents a false dilemma, leaving out the option that is best for the town. This coupled with his push to proceed with a plan that would most likely be harmful to the town is a good reason to

vote: DeathNote

He just repeated the exact thing that Pug said.




And some distancing...

Post 145:

I don't like ek's insistence that we should consider her town at all. ek, I feel like you're significantly downplaying the possibility that you could be faking or the(even more likely, imo) possibility that scum would have no idea they didn't have a nk.

Post 367

I don't. I think SC is likely scum, but that has nothing to do with you, like I said in my last post.

And just where were his votes placed?

Day 1

Lynch
DeathNote, Post 82 - This is the post that he parrots Pug
SC, Post 214 - "for the ridiculous way he's overreacted towards starbuck and the above scummy line of questioning."
DeathNote, Post 383 - For reasons in previous posts and the "just policy lynch me and get it over with" thing

Imprint
Messiah, VMD and Buttonmen

Day 2

Lynch
SC, Post 480 - No reason
Starbuck, Post 615 - Her "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive.

[Starbuck]

I can still help my town while I am still alive. Hopefully, you guys will re-read everything I've said and pick through it with a fine tooth comb when I flip.

[Starbuck]

Imprint: Buttomen, Pug

Does nobody find this Imprint vote after the hammer a little scummy?

Notice that xRx hasn't really mentioned anything else since?

[Starbuck]

Imprints have to be in before the lynch though, last I knew.

[Starbuck]

Let's take a look at my lynchers...

Arizona (5) - Alaska, Georgia, Virginia, Kansas, Iowa, colorado
SC, Plum, elvis_knits, farside, xRx, and Messiah


We already know SC, elvis and Messiah's reasons for voting for me.


Farside built her own case, and I actually find this to be pro-town. She didn't parrot off of anyone else.


I almost forgot Plum was in this game. I made mention of her in my catch up post but I will do so again. In this post, it seems like she is attacking SC, but she turns around and votes for myself. And she NEVER even built a case on me.

Here's what she said:

Starbuck was my next scummiest suspect for similar counts to DN's but not SC's case (though DN flipping scum makes her look no better, to say the least).

Vote: Starbuck

That was it!

You guys need to look into Plum a bit.


xRx votes for me in this post because:

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan. Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no.

One funny thing to mention is that neither Farside nor xRx had any type of interaction with me before they voted for me.


Way to judge someone for ONE DAY of posting.

And xRx, I thought you were better than this. If you are scum, I can see why you would vote me, if you aren't I'm severely disappointed in you.

[Starbuck]

Elvis, I just want to say that if you really are town that you may want to start rethinking your bias of always viewing someone as scum. I really don't know what I did to make you always assume that I am. I'm barely ever scum and my Wiki can prove that.

It's just something to think about.

I'm not trying to be rude in anyway, just trying to give advice.

[Starbuck]

As much as you probably don't believe it, I really didn't feel you are scum. You have done scummy things, and I didn't feel comfortable imprinting you because you are so buddy buddy with SC, but my vote would never have gone to you.

[Starbuck]

I had the strongest ties, I can see that, but as much as you said that I didn't read what you said (which I did), you never once even tried to look at the other side of the situation where I AM town.

You just automatically assume every time that I'm scum and that's a weakness in your play. Just as my inability to read certain people (ex: DeathNote) is a weakness in mine.

[Starbuck]

It's not an IF I'm town. It's THAT I'm town.

And if you two are both town, I highly suggest that you both look at your play this game and learn from it.

[Starbuck]

To be honest, Starbuck, I'll learn that we were right about one scum and wrong about another and that's better than random chance.

You need to allow people to be wrong.

You need to allow people to have other opinions then your own.

QFT.

And even if someone has a different opinion of you and disagrees with you, it's not ALWAYS a scumtell.

[Starbuck]

To be honest, Starbuck, I'll learn that we were right about one scum and wrong about another and that's better than random chance.

You need to allow people to be wrong.

You need to learn that there are 10 other people playing this game besides you and Elvis.

[Starbuck]

And personally, I won't be offended if either of you don't want to join a game I'm a part of. If this is how it goes every time you both are in a game together, then I definitely would rather bypass the frustration and annoyance.

[Starbuck]

I almost, almost thought about asking for a replacement do to the maryter attitude from both of them.

Me too. I can't stand people who go out of their way to make mafia games unenjoyable for the rest of the people that are playing.

[Starbuck]

I'm not taking things personally.

[quote="Starbuck"
Starbuck, if you're town you should be trying to tell us who you think is scum before the lynch scene is posted.[/quote]

I'm guessing that you haven't read any single one of my posts after the hammer went down?

More ignoring of my posts. I love it.

[Starbuck]

Fail on tags.

that should be

Starbuck, if you're town you should be trying to tell us who you think is scum before the lynch scene is posted.

I'm guessing that you haven't read any single one of my posts after the hammer went down?

More ignoring of my posts. I love it.

[Starbuck]

You asked me to do something that I already did.

And this isn't the first time that you've ignored my posts or other's posts.

[Starbuck]

You perception of reality is not very accurate.

Quite a few others in this game seem to think so too.

I'm not the only one who has called you out on ignoring people.

[Starbuck]

Mafia is a heated game. If you can't take the heat, you need to get out of the kitchen. That's the best advice I have.

I don't take anything personally. I scum hunt when I'm town, I kill when I'm mafia or third party, and I don't apologize for it. As you shouldn't either.

Mafia is supposed to be fun and I don't like when others are making it not fun. I was home for the last 2 weeks in Connecticut because my Great Grandmother passed away. That's why I was on V/LA. I got back to Sicily on Weds night and had my Stats final last night. After that, I sat down to catch up with this game.

It really disappointed me to come back to find out that I was at L-1 and I had only posted for one day, so that you guys wouldn't think I was a scumbag lurker. I have been looking forward to this game for quite sometime as I am a huge Dollhouse fan, and for it to be ruined because people took advantage of the fact that I wasn't near a computer is crap. So yeah, I'm a bit pissed off about that. But am I taking it personally, no.

[Starbuck]

I don't think that's true, but if it is, I will answer anything people think I neglected.

What do you want me to comment on?

How about all the questions I posed to you in my catch up posts for starters?

I don't know what you missed from the others. I had just read it as I caught up.

[Starbuck]

You're taking it out on me and acting like I ruined the game intentionally for you. That is not right. I think you're a very poor sport.

I'm not taking it out on you.

I'm sorry if you feel this way, but that's not my intention.

[Starbuck]

We have put the past behind us.

I think the thing that bothered me most was that I was home on emergency leave due to my great grandmother passing. I was working my ass off to stay caught up and that was taken advantage of.

I was very much looking forward to this game and to have it cut off so abruptly pissed me off.

Starbuck wanted me dead.

This is in no way true. I wanted the buddying that you and SC were doing to stop and for you to think for yourself.

That buddying that you guys came into the game with is what definitely made Day 1 such a hassle, at least for me.

[Starbuck]

SC - just do me a favor. If I'm ever on a player list for a game please don't join it, I will do the same for you.

Your last comments were unnecessary and completely fucking rude.