Mini 817: Chosen (Game Over!)
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Observation.AshMC1984 wrote:
Insinuation without accusation or questioning? If you think MM is scummy say so.Papa Zito wrote:
My turn?MiteyMouse wrote:Vote: Papa Zito
It's your turn my friend!
That's two votes on me. Hmm.
Vote: Papa Zito
There's a school of thought that the third voter on a bandwagon is likely scum. What do you think?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I'm in an ongoing game with nadroj15 and another with BloodCovenent at the moment. Mitey invited me here, we've played together in I think it's three other games now. I dunno the rest of you lot.Zorblag wrote:Could everyone please give a list the other players in the game that you've played with or modded in the past using experience with nadroj15 rather than myself?
Scummiest player so far.afatchic wrote:Papa what was the vote on Nuwen for?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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+1 to character posting.Zorblag wrote: Troll be happier talking like this but Troll knows that some no care for it much. As a rule Troll drops the character when Troll be replacing into games but Troll do be most happy to waive that if those in this game would like Troll to.
Sure, they're minor, but it's early game.Zorblag wrote:I see a few very minor things that have happened that make her more likely to be scum
Game seems to be stalling, like everyone's waiting on me or something. So in the interest of getting things moving again:
Nuwen
This argument is enormously overblown. Random votes are never taken seriously. It's only after we emerge from the RVS and when bandwagons form that votes are taken seriously.Nuwen wrote:And by not voting, do you realize that you're neutering one of the most effective tools the town has: vote history. Votes form a discernible pattern that can be used in conjunction to other scum hunting techniques. Players are also held accountable for their votes - no vote, no responsibility, no trail.
No opinion on the bandwagon. You know what else leaves no trail? Not posting opinions.Nuwen wrote:Business as usual.
Again, an overblown argument. People aren't allowed to evolve in their play?Nuwen wrote:My concern is that you're now abiding by a strict policy, but haven't before.
Nuwen votes immediately afterwards for these poor reasons. What's even worse is she doesn't even mention that I also didn't random vote and it's also unusual compared to my past play. To me this says she zoned in on the first person to give her a convenient excuse.
One other thing.
TDC
First post, TDC votes Archon using Nuwen's argument.TDC wrote:vote: Archon
"Opinion" on my bandwagon. Nuwen mirrors this later, as discussed.TDC wrote:I don't see anything unusual in it.
Another TDC-Nuwen tie. TDC doesn't like that Nuwen has been voted. We should keep these in mind if one of them flips scum.TDC wrote:Call.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I both brought attention to it and requested opinions.TDC wrote:Do you disagree? If you think it's unusual, why do you not comment on it?
TDC wrote:Why are you singling me out on this? Several people enquired.
It's another part of the interaction between you two that I find interesting.
lolTDC wrote:Is that the royal we?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I really like where Troll's going.
I'm not sure which of the four I'd choose. I would have to research them all and figure out which ones appeared most pro-town on average. I'd pick those four.
If you really want me to pick people I can but you'll have to give me some time.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Only way to kill the Chosen is a lynch. So as scum I would have to exclude players who are typically hard to lynch/can defend themselves well.
Archon - KEEP - Mini 781.
AshMC1984 - KEEP - Serial lurker - Open 143, Mini 779 (scum) Mini 801 (town).
Bloodcovenent - KEEP - His only completed game is Newbie. Fun fact, I learned in that Bloodcovenant and Cateraction are friends in Realtime.
afatchic - EXCLUDE - Highly active; gets killed N1 a lot.
MiteyMouse - KEEP - I dunno, I always see her as scummy.
nadroj15 - KEEP - Only completed game is newbie.
Nuwen - EXCLUDE - Vet, plays strong as town, lots of analysis.
Papa Zito - HURR. Though objectively I'd exclude me if I were scum. And if I were a different player. Looking at me. ... ?
TDC - EXCLUDE - Similar to Nuwen.
So afatchic, Nuwen, TDC. For the fourth I'd throw in Mitey since apparently everyone else seems to view her as town. hehKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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No lynch = no fun. Basically the Chosen is just an extra scum-loss mechanic. Since lynching the Chosen doesn't guarantee the town a loss, I'd just ignore that he/she even exists. I still like the lists though, it's good to get in people's heads.
ORLYZorblag wrote:If we've still got the chosen in the last four players then the mafia have to lynch them and cannot lynch the other townie or we lose.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Is it just me, or does this not scream "I don't want you to know our strategy"?Raivann wrote:I could give you a list but it is pretty much random because I dont know...
The idea is good as long as scum excluded the players they thought were the best. They could have done the exact opposite, no?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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It's standard practice to allow scum replacees to communicate with their partners, isn't it?afatchic wrote:This feels like reaching to me. IF Raivann is scum, he still wasn't here when they came up with the strategy. So how would he know what their strategy was?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Reading the quicktopic would inform the replacement of scum strategy, wouldn't it?Herodotus wrote:Not quite. Normally, there is a quicktopic (basically a private thread,) and they can read whatever the original players wrote.
Example:
In this (abandoned) game http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11252
the QT was here http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/YRngLQvvHXPmZ (it's in reverse chronological order)
When kieraen replaced Gateway, he was given a link to the QT, so he could read what Gateway, Rishi, and I had discussed in pre-game, but none of us could post there during the day.
Anyway,unvote; vote: Raivann. Pressure produces results.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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My entire Mafia experience is this site. And I'm a relative newbie to the game. My games and their links are listed on my wiki page if you'd care to look.Special Ed wrote:What I would like, at this point, if it's not too much trouble, is a couple of sentences from everyone. First describing your experience with Mafia on this site and i total, as well as some general impressions on how Day 1 usually goes here.
From what I've seen, games here generally begin with a "random voting stage" (RVS) where people vote one another for bogus jokey reasons. At some point somebody seizes on some tiny minuscule thing, and then people begin to banter back and forth, etc.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Troll, you're starting to worry me a bit.Zorblag wrote:We've got a deadline now. It's a week away so there's plenty of time left. I think it should be clear to everyone that it's better for us to lynch someone before we reach it but just in case, here's the reason. If we can be pretty sure we won't hit the chosen today then any lynch we choose is better than a random lynch which we know won't hit scum but might be the chosen one. If things go well then we'll hit scum but even if we're wrong we're in better shape with the information from the votes than we would be otherwise.
If you remove the Chosen mechanic from the equation, this game becomes a standard 7 vanilla vs. 2 vanilla scum setup. All the Chosen does is remove a couple of mafia win conditions, i.e. 2 scum vs. Chosen or 1 scum vs. Chosen.
For some reason you seem to be subtly pushing the idea that a Chosen lynch would be extremely detrimental to the town. This is simply not true; it just turns the game into a standard one. Saying things like a random lynch "won't hit scum but might hit the Chosen one" is a scare tactic. And it's also factually incorrect: a random lynch is twice as likely to hit scum as it is to hit the Chosen.
Getting back to my worry - you've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at mechanics and not scumhunting. I agree there's value in the Chosen lists that we generated, but I think there's less value there than if we were playing as if the Chosen mechanic didn't exist. Which, incidentally, is what I would propose we do so that this doesn't turn into more of a distraction than it already has.
Ignoring the Chosen issue entirely, can you please give a list of who you feel are most scummy at the moment? TIA.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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I put "Keep the Chosen Alive" below "Lynch Scum" on my priority list.MiteyMouse wrote:Papa...I was thinking on your post about having the Choosen on die and this just turning into a regular Mafia game. From reading the PMs at the start of the game thread, killing the Choosen is one of the /winCons of the Scum. Do you really think that it's not important to keep them alive?
Papa Zito's Priority List
1. Lynch Scum
2. Keep Chosen Alive
3. Keep Self Alive
See?
I'm worried about Zorblag putting so much emphasis on #2 and not enough on #1. A couple people have mentioned it and I'm starting to agree, this is starting to look like a distraction.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Boy did it get quiet around here.
Raivann, I'm still waiting for a Herodotus case.
Call me old-fashioned Troll, but I think we have a better shot at this game going about it the regular way. The whole Chosen thing is like the bubblegum ball at the bottom of an ice-cream cone. You don't buy the cone for the gum, the gum is just an extra added surprise.
Also, someday in one of our games Mitey is actually going to think I'm town and the world will end.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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You willing to switch at deadline?BloodCovenent wrote:I'll re-read the case against Rai, but my top suspect is still MM.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, Zorblag. Maybe my lack of experience in a mountainous setup is coloring my perspective but I'm not seeing the Chosen mechanic as particularly important. My opinion is that we've already squeezed all the blood from that stone with the lists you requested and it's time to move on.
Mitey, I think you owe us some analysis of the game. Top 3 suspects?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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1. Her vote for me didn't make any sense when it was made and she never adequately defended it later on.Zorblag wrote: Papa Zito, I don't mind people agreeing with me but why do you think that MiteyMouse is our most probable scum right now?
-Zorblag R`Lyeh
2. She attacked me with a weak cuddling claim for naming Raivann/Nuwen as scum.
3. She had absolutely zero interaction with our scum player slot all of Day 1. The reverse is also true.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Yeah, I nailed Nuwen early on. How horrible of me.
I don't understand why you're so fixated on this passing messages thing. The fact isboth the people you accuse of passing messages were on the scum lynch. That alone should completely blow your theory out of the water, and yetyou continue to insist that some form of messaging happened.Beyond these vague message accusations I haven't seen you do any real scumhunting this game. What gives?
Ash/Special Ed are still scummy and a great #2 candidate, but you are more scummy due to what Zorblag talked about and the points I made. You have yet to make any concrete statements regarding this message business, and you have yet to refute anything put against you. If you want my vote to move you're going to have to mount a defense.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.
Also:Nuwen wrote:Vote: Archon
Herodotus is totally the Chosen. No lynching the Hero plz.Raivann wrote:I like my vote on Heredotus.
Also also, my view of the game (bold is confirmed):Vote Count 1 wrote: 2Archon:,TDCNuwen
0AshMC1984:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
0: [/color]Nuwen
2Papa Zito: MiteyMouse,AshMC1984
0TDC:Vote Count 2 wrote: 2Archon:,TDCNuwen
0AshMC1984:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
1:NuwenPapa Zito
2Papa Zito: MiteyMouse,AshMC1984
0:TDCVote Count 3 wrote:3Herodotus:,TDC,RaivannAshMC1984
1AshMC1984:Papa Zito
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
2: Zorblag,RaivannHerodotus
1Papa Zito: MiteyMouse
0:TDCVote Count 4 wrote:1Herodotus:Raivann
0Special Ed:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
3: ZorblagRaivannHerodotusPapa Zito
0Papa Zito: MiteyMouse
0:TDC
Actually while doing this vote count 3 struck me. Here's Ash's reasoning:Lynch Count wrote:5: Zorblag,RaivannHerodotus,Papa Zito,,TDCSpecial Ed
1Herodotus:Raivann
0Special Ed
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
1Papa Zito: MiteyMouse
0TDC
This was terrible reasoning then and it's terrible now. Given that I'm 99% positive that Hero is the Chosen, this looks me like Ash is trying to help his partner get the Chosen lynched.AshMC1984 wrote:The last game I played with Archon, he was replaced early and flipped scum when his replacement died. I don't think he likes playing scum.
unvote
vote: Special EdKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Nor do I expect you to. I do hope, however, that you don't expect me to ignore your predecessor.Special Ed wrote:
I cannot tell you what Ash was thinking or why he may have voted the way he did.Papa Zito wrote:I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.{{{{SNIP}}}KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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There are only very very very rare cases where townies should self-vote. This is not one of them.Dry-fit wrote:A quick theory question: Would it be better for Ed to not self-hammer so that there are more people on the lynching wagon, or do non-voters/those with votes elsewhere provide as much information for vote analysis?
The day isn't over, and my mind isn't set in stone. If someone were to present a good case on someone else I'd consider moving.
Special Ed, could you give us a breakdown of where you think people stand? Something like:
Prob Scum
X
Y
Scummy
X
Y
Neutral
X
Y
Townish
X
Y
Prob Town
X
Y
A sentence or two of why you think those things would be great too.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Are you asking for a translation?Special Ed wrote:Herodotus??
I'll give it a shot, though my Spanish sucks.
This thread needs moar Don.hohum wrote:Official Count of the Vote:
Special Ed(3): Dry-fit, Papa Zito, MiteyMouse
MiteyMouse(2): Zorblag, Special Ed
Not Voting: don_johnson
With seven votes, it takes four to lynch.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Hero's gambit was fun. I wish I'd been online to participate.Zorblag wrote:Papa Zito, what do you think of don-johnson so far? Any change on Herodotus based on the gambits that are being bandied about
Don seems like he won't help unless forced to. I'm not sure how to interpret this. I'll have to find past games of his so I can judge.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Ether, did you invent this setup?
I don't know a thing about game balance so I can't comment on that. The only thing I will say is that I think the sample size is too small to really judge at this point.
Troll, now that the game is over you know I'm town and can take what I said at face value. I don't want to rehash the argument again; I just want to apologize that you got frustrated since that lessened your enjoyment of the game.
For my part I enjoyed the game a great deal and I was sad to be NKed early yet again. It was still fun to watch though. Hero for MVP.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.
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