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Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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I agree with the choice as well...What would their be to discuss? At this point it would be random guess. Based on the choices I think he picked the safest path plus we have a goal to get to the tree!
Rhinox looks left... oooh, scary cliff. Rhinox looks center... aaargh, scary forest. Rhinox looks right... hey, look at that tree. I wonder whats there?
Its the only choice that gave us a destination, instead of a path. Its always good picking the path that gives somewhere to go.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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ORLY?occam wrote:Can't blame RS for picking that pathas it seems like he didn't even mean to- unless there's something in his role about being the one who picks the way, it looks like he was voting for a direction without realizing he was actually picking it.
Jebus, the mod wrote:The first person to bold either Path A, Path B, or Path C has made the decision.Rogue Shenanigans, in the first game post wrote:Later when it actually matters more. I do not condone such immediate choosing without a little chin wagging. But as it was said that such a choice right now wouldnt mean much,I took it apon myself to feel a bit special and pick the path.unvote, vote Occamfor not reading the thread-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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mwahaha!Rogue Shenanigans wrote:
Korts claimed scum.raider8169 wrote:Was anything important said in the comments that were deleted?
Quicklynch go!dies of laughter, its now night 1...
in all seriousness, RS started a bandwagon on Korts and said something to the tune of "yay! bandwagon time" so I responded with a "you're right!" and put the second vote on RS... I don't remember anything else.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Whats so noteworthy about that?Occam wrote:Also worth noting is that both Rhinox and MM have posted since I asked someone to explain the Lunar wagon and neither has done so. This reinforces my belief that it's unfounded.
Mod-Edit Votecount 1-4
Lunar Tick - 5 (Rhinox, MonkeyMan, Rogue Shenanigans, Korts, Kiro)
BSG - 1 (Prom King)
Rogue Shenanigans - 1 (freeko)
MonkeyMan - 1 (BSG)
Kiro - 1 (Occam)
Not Voting - Syplus, Lunar_Tick, Raider
With 12 left, 7 to lynch.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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That all depends on whether or not LT is scum.Why are you still on LT's wagon? Do you feel it's justified?
Actually, it means I don't disagree with the votes on LT, which carries a slightly different meaning. My vote stays on LT because I don't find anybody any more scummy than anyone else, so LT is just as likely to be scum as anyone else I could be voting for. If he gets lynched, he gets lynched. I'm not afraid to participate in lynching anybody. You have a problem with LT being lynched?If so, please explain why to me, because you're still a vote on it, which implicitly states that you agree with it.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Thats quite bad wifom, considering that scum often argue against a townie mislynch to prove their good townie judgment.Occam wrote: A. I I were scum the LAST THING I would be trying to do would be steering the town AWAY from a mislynch.
I'm not asking you to prove anything... but surely you must have some reason, or some information, that makes you think LT would be a mislynch, as opposed to simply a bad lynch at a bad time.Occam wrote: B. I'm not sure it's a mislynch. I just see no evidence that it will be a good lynch.
C. Asking me to PROVE that LT is town is the same as asking someone to PROVE that they aren't scum (then using the fact that they CAN'T as evidence that they ARE scum, or in this case, the fact that I CAN'T prove that he's town as evidence that he's scum):
But its nice to see you know how to browse the wiki
hmmm... fishing much? Occam defending LT doesn't mean they are linked.freeko wrote: Oh and isnt all that ABCD crap WIFOM? I mean an actual reason might help. The only thing you are telling me is that the 2 of you are linked somehow. Lovers? Scummates? Help yourself out here.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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I've been trying to wait for LT to post something before I do this, but whatever...Occam wrote:I'm actually attacking... Rhinox ...via and because of your bogus play. It's more an act of scumhunting than it is a defense, if you read closely.
Unexplained bandwagons DO serve a purpose Occam, especially on D1. Lots of purposes actually. You can see what type of response you get from the person being bandwagoned, you can see who jumps on the wagon and why, you can see who ignores the wagon all together, you can see or supports the wagon but doesn't vote, you can see who is vocally opposed to the wagon and why, etc... All of this is valuable information to keep tucked away until later in the game when concrete information is known about players roles, and then logical conclusions can be made.
That being said, lets talk about why you suspect me... first, it was because I didn't justify the case for the wagon on LT. Well, seeing as my vote was random and the first vote on LT, I'm not really part of the wagon. My vote should be analyzed separately from the rest of the bandwagon votes.
Ok, so then it was because I didn't remove my vote from LT after the wagon started, so it must mean I agree with it and support it. Well think about it... leaving my vote on LT during the wagon gives us the opportunity to get answers to the questions I posted in the first paragraph in this post. Removing my vote... does nothing. It removes pressure from LT, preventing any type of a reaction. It might stop others (possibly scum) from jumping on the wagon, and possibly stalls the game. Yes, LT might have possibly been lynched - He could be town, or he could be scum. But even if he were town, the information gained from the quick, unjustified lynch of a townie would be worth the loss of a townie on day 1 (which I believe I've been told that site wide, day 1 ends with a townie lynch something like 60-80% of the time anyways).
What you've done by defending LT is choke the town of valuable information. Because of you, LT hasn't had to respond to the bandwagon, and probably doesn't view it as a threat. What we do learn is that you're furiosly opposed to the wagon on LT. That might mean you and LT are scum partners, that might might mean that you're scum trying to earn "good townie" points by defending a town player -or- it might mean you're town that thinks there is scum on LT's wagon, or you're newbie town that doesn't understand the utility of D1 bandwagons, or you're just a townie making a stupid move by not letting LT speak for himself and possibly make a mistake. Afterall, if you're town, for all you know LT could be scum so you might as well use this bandwagon (even if you feel its unjustified) as a way to get a read on LT before assuming the wagon is bad, right? Because if you're town, you don't know whether LT is scum or not, right?
Here's another way to consider this. Think of it as analogous to the chicken or the egg dilemna - if we all had to have definitive evidence before we voted someone, then we would never vote anyone. If nobody ever voted, then scum would never give us any tells we could use as evidence.
Now that I've explained all this, the utility of my vote on the LT wagon has run its course. I don't see anything scummy about how LT has acted so far, but I was hoping this wagon would give us something to get a better read on him. I've taken note of who jumped on the wagon, and who ignored the wagon, for later when we know more about all the players invloved. I find Occam scummy for defending LT. Yes, Occam, defending LT in the manner you did is scummy, because instead of trying to determine which, if any, of the 5 players voting for LT might be scum, you put out a blanket statement "The wagon is bad and everyone voting for LT is scummy" when clearly all 5 players can't be scum in a mini. However, I find freeko scummier.
unvote, vote: freeko-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Occam wrote:Rhinox - do YOU think what LT did was scummy?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rhinox wrote:Now that I've explained all this, the utility of my vote on the LT wagon has run its course.I don't see anything scummy about how LT has acted so far, but I was hoping this wagon would give us something to get a better read on him.I've taken note of who jumped on the wagon, and who ignored the wagon, for later when we know more about all the players invloved.
Its not convenient for me at all, if I'm scum, or if I'm town. By calling me scummy for leaving my vote on LT, you're assuming 2 things - that I'm scum, and LT is town. There are 3 other scenarios. Consider this... I leave my vote on LT, and he's quick lynched and scum. What does that mean? What if I remove my vote because of the bandwagon, and LT is scum? What if we're both town? There are just too many possibilities, and too many WIFOM angles, based on too many assumptions you can't possibly know are accurate, for me leaving my vote on LT to be anything more than a null tell. Using certain assumptions, you could come to the conclusion that I'm scummy regardless of whether or not I immediately removed my vote. But instead of worrying about which decision would make me look scummier, I made my decision based on what choice would provide the most information to the town - and keeping my vote and allowing the bandwagon to continue provided more information than removing my vote and playing the WIFOM game of who's scummy for bandwagoning LT.Occam wrote:I see leaving a vote on someone being bandwagoned as an easy way for scum to justify being on a bandwagon. It's very convenient for you, if you're scum, that the bandwagon formed on the person who you had a random vote on. Does that make you scum? No, but I still find it suspicious.
Strange that you can come to that conclusion without even knowing whether LT is town or scum... Do you think 2 or 3 scum are on LT's wagon if LT is scum? In either case, I find it unlikely that there would be so many scum out of just 5 votes on LT's wagon. I would be suprised if there were 2 scum out of the 4 other players (besides myself), probably either 1 or none.Occam wrote:There are probably somewhere between 2 and 3 scum. MM, Korts, and Kiro are the scummiest of the 5 on the wagon. Does that mean the other 2 aren't suspicious? No. Does it mean any of those 5 are automatically scum? Also no. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to hold back a vote on something I consider scummy.
Freeko was fishing. Hard, and obviously. He used an invalid assumption that you and LT are scum mates (based on nothing more than you defending LT) to try to pry more information out of you about your role.Occam wrote:However, you've moved your vote. Can I ask why you think freek is scum? You've laid out a page long summary of why you think I'm scummy, and not mentioned freek, but then said he's scummier. I agree that freek's question about me and LT being "connected" is suspicious - but is that the reason you're voting him? Anything else to add on that?
Aside from that, freeko hasn't really done much. He hasn't been scumhunting, and he's thrown out Japanese proverbs that seem like nothing more than a charade to try to make himself look smart. But the biggest thing is that in his 7th post (looking in isolation), he viewied the LT bandwagon as nothing more than "a play to get some information from the player that is bandwagoned", but came to the conclusion that you and LT are BOTH scum based on nothing more than your defense of the LT wagon, and used that to attempt to fish out more information about your role. I mean, what was he expecting you to say? "Oh you're right, freeko, LT and I ARE scum partners... you got us!" Not likely...-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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You do suck at quoting, because thats not what I said... Here is what I did say:"there is scum on LT's wagon" .. i suck at quoting, so meh.
...and the implication is that we need more information before we can come to any sort of conclusions about who was on the LT wagon.Rhinox wrote:I would be suprised if there were 2 scum out of the 4 other players (besides myself), probably either 1 or none.
What you did, was selectively quote what Occam selectively quoted from this statement:
which was 1 of my 5 given possible explanations for why Occam might be defending LT, other than that they are connected.Rhinox wrote:it might mean you're town that thinks there is scum on LT's wagon
In other, simpler words... this is a scummy misrep.
Actually, I got the idea that you had them pegged as connected, by numerous statements like this one:Freeko wrote:Rhinox, where do you get the idea that I had them pegged as scum-mates? For all I know they could be lovers. I love how you make this attempt at turning my questioning completely sideways here.
It wouldn't have been quite as scummy if you did say you thought they were scummates - then, its only using false assumptions to come to a possibly incorrect conclusion. However, you just openly stated you don't necessarily think they are scum mates and you just think they are connected in some other way, by role. Way to openly confess to role fishing...freeko wrote:The only thing you are telling me is that the 2 of you are linked somehow. Lovers? Scummates? Help yourself out here.
ok... so I guess that means I can add fence-sitting to your list of scummy offenses. You did say this:freeko wrote:If you missed a MINOR little detail, I do not have my vote on Occam. Nor did my vote ever get placed on Occam at any point.
Definate fence-sitting, while giving yourself an opportunity to jump on whichever wagon you felt like later, based on, again, the assumption that Occam and LT are scum partners. So maybe this was the post that gave me that ideafreeko wrote:I am truly considring moving my vote either onto you or onto the bandwagon for LT, as it seems to have gotten a reaction out of you. I cant help but think that LT is playing the silent lurker scum while you are playing the more vocal of the group trying to convince everyone else that others within the group are worth more attnetion than your scummate?
Any other straws you want to grasp at, scum?-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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..... :annoyed:
unvote, pending confirmation from PK
I shouldn't have to ask you to spell it out, but just to be sure... freeko, does your role state that you know PK is town? Same for PK... do you know for sure freeko is town? Without that certainty, the mason claim doesn't mean much.
[side rant]
Why is it that whenever I play in games with masons, the masons play the scummiest and are forced to reveal themselves D1... 2 games with masons, same result... 'course, last time I was SK, so I didn't mind.
[/side rant]-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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IMO, being a mason is a power role because someone can confirm your innocents if you are told your mason partners allignment.Raider, my mason partner gave ME away actually. We are actually what looks to be 3rd party masons. Our victory condition (at least mine) is simply to get to the town alive on day 6. I also have the town win condition of winning when all scum are found. It is unknown to me what PK's alignment is.
Personally, I dont see how my role is a "power" role. The only thing I have is the ability to talk with someone else during the night phase.
That being said, I'm a tad confused about the inconsistancies between what you just said was in your role, and when PK said he knew you were town.
As far as I always knew, masons were either confirmed (you know each other's allignment) or unconfirmed (you don't know each others allignment). PK claimed he knows you're town, but you claim you don't know PK's allignment. Can anyone here more experienced with masons tell me if that sort of thing (1 mason being confirmed, the other being unconfirmed) has happened before, and if it seems reasonable.
Regarding PK, if he is sure you're town, and you're unsure he is town, then this claim gives us valuable (and from now on, confusing) information about PK... either he is town and he believed you knew he was town, and he outed you to save you and confirm 2 townies, -or- he's scum gambiting that it would make him seem confirmed as town by preventing his mason partner townie from being lynched.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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I'm not sure if that would be the best thing. In my other game with masons, someone suggested a cop investigate one of them, and it was pretty much shot down by everyone as the worst idea ever, although I'm not exactly sure why. Mainly, I think, because the cops investigation choice shouldn't be determined by the town, since there are scum who could manipulate the cop.freeko wrote:Would it be unreasonable to ask for someone who has an investigative ability to look into him?-
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Well maybe... but as this is a theme game, we can't count out the possibility of unusual roles - even ones we haven't seen before.Occam wrote:I don't think you're missing something, I think it's a bullcrap claim.
We still haven't heard from PK again yet, so its a little premature to be calling for the lynch of a claimed mason, who's mason partner claimed he was innocent. even if they are lying, there are still more scum to find as well.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Just to add on to what korts said, in my only other game with masons, the masons had to claim on D1. Both of them were acting scummy, and a few people, myself included still wanted to lynch them after the claim. After discussion, this is what came out of it:BSG wrote:And it would be nice if Korts could explain why he thinks it's bad to lynch one of Freeko or Prom King.
(PS: skip the quotes and read below for a summary)
Mini 688
G-Force - vanilla wrote:I'm inclined to believe the mason claim at the moment, only because I doubt scum would claim confirmed mason with their scum buddy this early. If its ever found that either one of them is scum via cop investigation, death scenes or whatnot, they're screwed.Xtorm (one of the Mason pair) wrote:Cop shouldn't be investigating us in the first place.G-force wrote:Well, I was speaking hypothetically, but yes, investigating you or RBT would likely be a waste.bionicchop2 - doc wrote: Xtoxm and Rice probably both know I am not a fan of how they have played this game, but meh. Nothing can be done about that. If we believe their claim (I do. The risk vs. reward is very poor for scum to pull this gambit as has been mentioned) it does allow us to not be distracted by their play styles (no offense meant Xtoxm, since I actually like playing in games with you despite not really liking how you play).mrfixij - cop wrote:Rhetorical question. Given that masons are mafia without a nightkill (and win with town), you can see just how convenient a mason claim is for scum. At the moment, I think it clears, but masons being outed always gives me a funny feeling.Xtorm wrote:Mason is one of the worst claims for mafia to make, and it's nothing like being mafia.bionicchop2 wrote:Especially on d1, masons is a horrible scum claim and the risk vs. reward just doesn't balance out. If either player turns up scum during the game, the other is an auto-lynch. Only the best players could argue their way out of a mason claim when their 'partner' turns up scum. Now if this was close to endgame, mafia might pull a gambit if the numbers worked out where they felt they could gain enough trust to push enough mislynches for the win.Rhinox - SK wrote:Off topic theory regarding the mason claim: I agree its a bad claim to make as scum on D1, but I'm wondering is it suicidal? meaning, are there situations where it can work? Yes, if one of them dies and is scum, the other is an auto lynch, but how would 1 of them die if they're scum? Assuming the town believes them, then an SK or vig would have to hit one. An sk might hit 1 to try to get the town to lynch the other if they're both scum. I've heard an sk's first priority is to eliminate the mafia, just like town. A vig might hit 1 to prove the claim and either give us a good lynch the next day, or a confirmed townie for at least a day. A cop could get a 2 for 1 investigation by investigating 1 of them.
Assuming none of those scenarios happen, I suppose the 2 claimed masons lasting until LyLo (when there is suspected to be more than 1 scum remaining) might raise suspisions, but even that wouldn't prove they're scum. Now consider that both RBT and Xtorm were directly in the town's crosshairs... is it worth playing the mason gambit if you think you can't argue your way out of the lynch otherwise? Either it was planned at night to claim mason if needed, or Xtorm dragged RBT into it by claiming, forcing RBT to play along. Knowing little about mason involvement on the site, my first reaction is to think that saying its a horrible scum move to claim mason D1 is WIFOM if there is a chance or examples of scum being able to pull it off. If its never been done/can't be done, then I'll concede the point and label RBT and X as "most likely town"bionicchop2 wrote:As for the masons - no it definitely is not suicide. One thing I do know about xtoxm though is he does not gambit much and he is not an exceptionally skilled liar by his own admission outside games. I haven't seen a fake claim from Xtoxm yet (outside of claiming vanilla as scum) and I don't think RBT plays that way either. This isn't to say I don't expect them to ever make a fake claim as mafia, but I find it unlikely mason would be the first choice. So, for me, that is definitely giving an early game pass through d1 and possibly d2. Closer to end game I could consider them being scum if both happen to still be alive.G-Force wrote:The problem with that is that is that its very likely that at least one of those scenarios will happen throughout the game, especially the SK kill. Claimed masons are either real masons or lying scum. SK's need to kill masons quickly since confirmed innocent's are extremely dangerous to SKs late-game, and if they don't have NK immunity, the mafia are high on their list of targets as well. Therefore, even the possibility of an SK makes claiming mason with a scum buddy extremely risky. Scum can't afford to risk two members (likely 2/3 of their team) on those odds.volkan - mafia RB wrote:Xtoxm says cop shouldn't be investigating the masons. This I do not like. Think about it: Xtoxm has said they were confirmed town to each other. Thus, they are either both town, or both scum. That means that a cop investigation would be able to clear or criminalise both of them. That's by no means a bad investigation (I am not saying a cop should necessarily investigate them; I am simply saying that there are good reasons for such an investigation)Xtorm wrote:This makes me very happy with a Volkan lynch today.
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tl;dr version:
"Ugh. Mason claim from my two top mislynches. I'll see if I can salvage a cop investigation on them, though."
I've posted all the quotes so players could come to their own conclusion, instead of having to just rely on what I say. Basically, it is my belief, based on this game, that scum claiming mason on D1 is unlikely due to the fact that it is very likely 1 of them will be killed at some point, revealing their true roles. Therefore a cop should not waste an investigation on the claimed masons due to both the unlikliness that scum would try this gambit D1, and the inevitability that one or both of them will be killed before LyLo anyways, revealing who they are. In the event that a cop is still considering investigating them anyways, note that only an innocent on PK will clear both of them in our game, but a guilty on PK does not mean they are both guily. A guilty on Freeko means they are both guilty, but an innocent on Freeko doesn't clear PK. However, it is my belief that a cop should not investigate either of them, especially freeko.Volkan wrote:X, you are completely twisting my words. I didn't positively say or imply that a cop SHOULD investigate you. I simply disputed your argument that a cop should NOT do so. My position is simply this: it would not be inherently unreasonable for a cop to investigate the masons, contrary to your blunt and unsubstantiated assertion that "Cop shouldn't be investigating us in the first place. "
This game is slightly different in that both can't confirm each others innocence. Given what i said above, I find it unlikely that both are scum. I think Freeko is innocent, given that he is the confirmed one of the pair, but we must still be suspicious of PK because he is not confirmed. PK may be gambitting that by claiming to save freeko from lynching, he will be viewed as town, especially in the event that freeko is later nked and proven town. That doesn't mean we should immediately lynch PK - rather, throughout the rest of the game, we can't simply consider him to be confirmed town, even if freeko dies and is a town mason.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Sorry MM. I remember Jebus posting this in the queue regarding this game. Since it was posted in the queue for all to read, before the game started, its info about the game we should all assume is truthful:
This game doesn't have any vanilla roles, so that makes you lying scum I believe.Jebus wrote:Which makes my game the only one currently open.
Which means that you people who may or may not be reading this should get over here and sign up.No vanilla = moar fun :O-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Because I'm already voting you, and I don't know what a cleric is or does, so it would be nice to have a description to base a decision of whether your claim is believable or not... anyone can throw out a role name, and you already lied about your claim, so it would be nice to know if your role is something that would justify a lie to protect.
Mod-Edit Votecount 1-9
MonkeyMan - 7 (BSG, Rhinox, freeko, Occam, Raider, Sipylus, Korts)
Lunar Tick - 2 (Rogue Shenanigans, Kiro, MonkeyMan)
Occam - 1 (Prom King)
Not Voting - Lunar_Tick
With 12 left, 7 to lynch.
That's a hammer. See night scene below.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Well I'm not convinced, but I would still like to hear more discussion before someone hammers.MM wrote: Well, my role is provable, but I'd rather not do so at this point, my only safeguard against being killed is that the mafia doesn't know what I do.
You're really just creating a WIFOM situation here. On one hand, mafia might nk you anyways because you imply you have such a powerful role - on the other hand, if you're not nked, maybe its because you are mafia.
If I was not voting for you now, I would not hammer until I heard a full role reveal, but I have not yet heard enough to justify removing my vote. I will leave it up to others to demand a full role reveal from you if they see fit, but I strongly urge nobody hammer until MM gives a full reveal.-
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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Rhinox Mafia Scum
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You can't prove anything if you don't tell us what you're proving.
As far as your claim, you really haven't. You first lied, then threw out a role name that no one seems to know, and we're just supposed to take you at your word that you can prove your role?
For the record, if someone demands you claim (properly) or die, and you choose death, then it is most definitely your mistake and not the towns.-
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Jebus wrote:This, unlike morning decisions, is a constant with very little effect.Mod: if I'm reading this correctly, then I understand this decision has very little effect. Is this correct?
If this is true, then there is really no need to debate about it. The only thing I see coming from the debate is information helpful to the mafia - i.e. who's protown, or who has some role incentive to being the watcher seems to me like info that only helps the mafia, if there is little effect (i.e. no benefits or consequences) to whoever watches. It makes logical sense that whoever watches should be town, but if it truely doesn't matter like the mod says, then we should just let the dice roll decide. (also, if it doesn't matter, then why do we even have to pick?) That being said, I'll be the watcher if its requested of me.
I also have a question about MM: is an indifferent Doc a doc that is not alligned with either side? So, like a survivor doc? That explains why MM didn't full claim I guess... his incentive was to survive and not necessarily help the town.
Also I'm glad I went back and read the death scene again to see this:
...before bitching out the mod for not keeping vote counts accurateJebus wrote:only six votes to lynch.-
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Well, someone thought I was scum that game you're referring to... I did get vigged N1...Juls wrote: I have to start Rhinox with a disclaimer. Rhinox is VERY good at this game. I was in the game where he was serial killer and totally thought he was town (I was the cop btw, but replaced out). People who can be so convincing at anti-town roles make me nervous.
The only thing I want to note for future study is that he seemed to lead the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim. I want to note it because it will be interesting to see in the long run if this was intented to make town doubt them or if it was good townie discussion. To be determined.
The post that started the discussion:
Also, I'm not putting doubt into the mason claim... actually, I was arguing that masons who claim D1 are usually indeed masons, and not lying scum. It was important to know whether the masons were confirmed or not.
I'm also wondering... Why is it a problem if I was "leading the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim" (which I wasn't doing), if you are doubting their claims (i.e. you're voting PK and you say freeko is slightly less suspicious than PK.)? Why do you doubt their claim?
Also, Juls, I thought I remembered you saying a while back you were through with mafiascum... I'm glad to see you decided to stick around.
This is about the worst reason I've ever heard for lynching someone...What reason do you have to suspect korts is scum? This is no different than singling anyone else out and saying, "eh, their either scum, or their not". If this is really the route you want to go, we'd be much better off lynching either you or PK... at least that way, we might confirm a townie (or catch a second scum).freeko wrote:Its more of a check than anything else. and to that extent i think its real simple (and pretty much wifom as well). Either korts is telling the truth and he flips town, or he is not and he is a scum. I am very heavily leaning twoards teh scum side right now. Problem is there is only one way to truly find out.-
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PK, seriously, participate. You've claimed to be a town role, so start acting like it. Quit giving us reasons to doubt you.Rhinox wrote: Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.
This is not helpful:
Its only fishing and speculation. Why don't you try making a case against someone?Prom King wrote:Did anyone get any valuable info last night??
Also, I'm assuming Occ was killed by the mafia.
I'm guessing LT is going to be replaced.
Megaflare: more out of you would be nice. Since you're a replacement, maybe you can make a post similar in style to juls where she summarized her scum reads on everyone.
Sipylus: is this player still in the game? or was he replaced? prod if he is, hasn't posted since the 19th.-
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RS was already replaced by megaflareon...mod: how recently was Rogue Shenanigans prodded?
This absolutely sounds like you think we or at least korts should have known that the 6th vote was the hammer. If not, what are you saying then?freeko wrote: Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me. It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.
As far as Korts choosing to watch without the town's consent, its WIFOM to attempt to figure out if thats scummy or pro-town. Maybe Korts is scum, and watched so someone from the town couldn't, or maybe Korts is town and watched to prevent scum from taking watch. Even if Korts is scum, it doesn't mean he was lying about his watching results, and it doesn't mean we'll magically get his information if we kill him and he is lying. Therefore, lynching Korts based on his decision to watch last night is not a good idea.
I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.
In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.
Mod-Edit Votecount 2-2
Prom King - 2 (BSG, Juls)
Korts - 1 (freeko)
Not Voting - 7 (Rhinox, Megaflareon, Prom King, Lunar_Tick, Korts, Sipylus, Raider)
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick.-
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yes, and no. Firstly, I figured we'd talk about who's watching tonight when tonight comes. Secondly, my theory is just that - a theory. Saying what I'm speculating won't effect the outcome, but IMO doesn't need discussed now because its all pure speculation, and doesn't help us catch scum today.raider8169 wrote:
Are you asking everyone to just let you watch tonight and test out your theory?Rhinox wrote:I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.
In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.-
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QFTJuls wrote:Freeko are you just not reading or do you often have difficulties understanding what people mean? He is saying that HE is the only person that HE knows to be 100% town (because he knows his role). He is NOT saying that we know him to be 100% town.
and... QFT. Well, minus the lynching freeko part. I don't think freeko is scum, I just think he's completely off track with his scum hunting. If he were scum, with a faked mason claim, I would expect him to start lurking to hide behind his facade of innocence... oh hey, kinda like what Prom King is doingKorts wrote:I have half a mind to just lynch freeko for all the misinterpretations and bullshit. Also why do I get the feeling that only three or four of us are talking? There should be ten of us still alive and pointing fingers for fuckssake.-
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Thats absolutely true... PK hasn't said anything about the mason claim since he said "*wink wink* I know freeko is town". I don't know whats so hard for him to actually answer a question and paraphrase his role PM for us...Prom King has yet to respond to the claimed mason part if I am not mistaken.-
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What was said, is that, alegedly, PK knows 100% that freeko is town, but freeko is unsure of PK's allignment and can't confirm him.freeko, did you say that you can't confirm PK's alignment?
Possibilities:
1)PK is scum, freeko is town. My feelings, Its possible, but unlikely. Here's why: PK voluntarily confirmed freeko. It wouldn't make sense for scum-PK to do that. Instead, PK could have hoped freeko was lynched, and shown up as mason. Then later in the game, if/when PK was found suspicious, he could have claimed to be freeko's mason partner, and there would have been no counter claim. He also could have stated they were confirmed to each other, and it never would have been known that PK wasn't confirmed. Of course, freeko would have claimed before getting lynched, as it seems it was getting to that point anyways, and the specific role information would have then got out anyways. PK's flaky play so far makes me think that the early role reveal is on par with flaky play, and not some scheme to make us think he's town for being so willing to prevent his townie mason partner's lynch.
2)Both are scum. My feelings, its possible, but unlikely. It would be a gambit, but with freeko being "confirmed", and PK not, this seems on paper like it would be a perfect ploy to make freeko seem like town after lynching scum-PK. Freeko's mention of wanting to lynch PK makes me worry this is possible. However, I doubt this is something that freeko and PK could pull off and improvise on the fly after the freeko wagon started, so for this to be the case, it would have to have been prepared in the night. I find it unlikely that, especially in a mini with probably either 3 or 4 on the mafia team, that a gambit would be tried D1 to intentionally sacrifice 1 member, and implicate another, with the chances of it working being less than if the scum just played straight.
3)Both are town. My feelings, most likely, based on the unlikliness of the alternatives. Either way, based on my feelings of option 2, freeko is probably town. PK may or may not be town, but shouldn't be our focus today. There are probably 3 other scum in the game even if PK is scum. Our focus should be on finding the other scum, and worry about PK later in the game if he makes it that far.
4)freeko is scum, PK is town. Impossible, unless PK doesn't understand his role PM, and freeko is lying about being confirmed. Given PK is being flaky, that is whyPK really needs to paraphrase his role pm for us
But if we hope to acomplish anything productive today, we need the other half of our town participating. Me, Korts, Juls, Freeko, and Raider have been posting mostly regularly today.
Sipylus, LT, and PK pretty much need replaced.
BSG and megaflareon have been posting, but I would like to see some more participation... mf moreso than BSG.-
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So you're saying that just because PK isn't confirmed, that automatically makes him scum, because otherwise the role doesn't make sense? Isn't that kinda a form of trying to outguess the mod? If thats the case, why would PK have bothered to confirm freeko, unless he didn't know freeko couldn't confirm him. But if thats the case, how does freeko know PK can confirm him?Out of all the opitions I think this one makes the most sense to me. The next being both of them town. Why else could one confirm the other and not get it in return.
I would expect the role PMs to be consistent, like:
PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment, but he doesn't know yours; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment, but he knows yours
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PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment.
Of course, I guess that means I'm sorta playing the outguessing the mod game as well...
@Juls: I agree, if PK is dies and is revealed Town mason, or scum mason, then freeko is definately town. I don't see how paired scum masons makes much sense, considering scum already can talk to each other at night. If PK dies and is scum, w/o the mason part, then we should probably assume freeko is scum.
I'm starting to rethink right now... the only other game I've played in with masons, they both claimed to be confirmed, so they were either both town, or both scum, for sure. So, it was considered bad to lynch them because if they were town, scum would pretty much have to lynch 1 or both of them by LyLo anyways, since confirmed town players are dangerous to the scum, and if they were scum, The likelyhood that an sk would have taken one out, or a cop investigating them to confirm by day 3 or 4 when it would be getting close to LyLo would have made two scum faking confimred masons practically suicide. Lynching PK, if he is the best choice, might confirm freeko, even if that makes freeko the likely nk choice.
Since PK has been dodging questions, which is definately scummy, and assuming he's unconfirmed, thats a good enough reason for a vote IMO. I certainly don't find any of the other active players as scummy as PK is right now.
vote: prom king
time to start talking.-
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Got it. You're a town alligned survivor.Freeko wrote: Though I have the basic town win condition of "find the scum", I think I am likely to be an indifferent 3rd party. As I only care about getting to the next town alive. Most of this is all stuff I have said before, a little reading would have shown you this. I know and PK knows that I am town aligned. I do not know his alignment though.
But... even if the mafia gets a mojority at some point in the game, I think there are still situations where some members of the town can make it to the next town without being able to be killed by the mafia... does that mean those townspeople lose since they don't have the make it to the next town wincon, even though they're not dead?
@Juls, I like your theory about Occam going off to investigate something. Without speculating too much, that means he can investigate something, but has to be away from the group for the day? or, maybe he'll return sometime today once we trigger something? like, when we get to a certain number of votes or something.
Whats bothering me though, is that if this is true, then something is missing from last night...-
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Sorry Jebus, trying to stay active here because I think this is a very interesting game so far, with the extra choices at day and night and what not. But the inactives, specifically PK has really ground this down to a halt.
Maybe later today I'll post some PbPA's of everyone and see if anything pops up though... no promises though. Super Bowl today. GO STEELERS!-
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Yay! Vi came
You might think differently when you read the part where freeko said his role PM said he was confirmed...Vi wrote:HOWEVER. Based on freeko's reaction to being outed as expressed in the QuickTopic I was given with my Role PM, I don't think he's Mafia.
OK, there is now an obvious solution here:
unvote, vote: freekofor insisting he was confirmed when he's not. Lynch All Liars. If freeko is scum, I'm comfortable letting Vi live a while, but not as confirmed town.
If freeko is town, then Vi isobvScumprobably scum for coming in and telling us freeko was not confirmed when he was (freeko said he was confirmed - if he's town, he's probably telling the truth).
Oh. My. God. Hilarious! (especially because I was practically typing up a post to confirm vote you for lying about your role, until I realized you were joking around). never a dull moment when Vi is aroundVi wrote:Confirming in.
Good evening, middle of hostile nowhere!
It looks like I'm going to have to claim first thing. Fair enough... I am seafoam. I'm a Miller, because people confuse me with Ocean Spray (that disgusting canned drink from the '90s).
...wait, I think I missed something. I signed up for Water Mafia, right? *reads cue card* I'll come in again.
hehe. Prof. Guppy has a friend.Vi wrote:Again, terminal idiot. Expect him to make a guest appearance in my rulesets.-
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EBWOP:
Another Lie? Freeko says his role PM has an alternate win condition of making it to the next town, and Vi says his does not. At least one of freeko or Vi are probably scum... I thinking freeko, because scum-Vi could have gotten out of his lynch in a way that wouldn't have made him the obv lynch choice the next day.Vi wrote:
I saw, but I haven't seen anything that specifically says that anything happens at that point. It's heavily implied, but I don't see anything "in writing".freeko 361 wrote:Vi, just so you know. The caravan reaches the destination town on the start of day 6. That is listed in the game rules.
Rereading now.-
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hmmm... good point actually. However, one of the 2 of them are lying, which means at least 1 of them are scum for sure. Freeko seems more likely to be lying to me, and if he's town, we're going to get Vi anyways. Freeko should be lynched first.korts wrote: Vi's claim makes me think that they're both scum, actually. PK I can easily imagine as having tried a crude gambit (claiming masons with a scumpartner) and pulling freeko with him; freeko's response fits the profile of wary scum going with the plan but ready to bus, and Vi's most recent claim of neighbour covers all bases in case of a lynch of either one of them.
Well, Vi's claim post makes me think if they're both scum, thats not how Vi would have claimed... It would have been better IMO to keep with the story freeko already started, and then gotten out of the lynch by simply participating, to keep both scum alive, instead of really throwing freeko under the bus. But thats WIFOM, so maybe they are both scum... And if freeko is town, Vi basically just climbed into the coffin.Juls wrote:But then, I don't see why they would openly disagree about it during day for all to see.-
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You should read this post then, and see why at least one of them HAS to be scum... unless you think town have a reason to lie about their roles...korts wrote:Out of the two, freeko is more likely to be scum; but I don't really like how hard you're pushing the notion that one of them is definitely scum. My stance is that it's more probable that both are, but entirely possible that neither are scum. Vi makes a fair point about how you're setting up a Vi (mis?)lynch upon a mislynch of freeko.
ORLY?? I'm fabricating lies? lets go back to the tape...freeko wrote:I said that my win condition is that I make it to the next town alive, this happens on day 6 (as the rules state). I have made the assumption on my own that surviving until day 6 would be the alternate win condition. It also says that I win when all threats to the caravan are removed.
This is what I have said from the start. The only lies are the ones you are choosing to fabricate out of twisting things away from what they really are.
Last side note, go look up Neighbor from the role wiki, it redirects to Mason. I presume that since we are not sure of each olthers alignments it is more correct to call us neighbors than masons.
freeko wrote:We are actually what looks to be 3rd party masons.Our victory condition (at least mine) is simply to get to the town alive on day 6.I also have the town win condition of winning when all scum are found. It is unknown to me what PK's alignment is.here you say you have the alternate win condition of making it to the town alive at the start of day 6. Vi does not have this condition, and town roles (me, occam) do not have this win condition explicitly stated. If you have it, you are the only one.
freeko wrote:I cannot directly quote my role pm, so I cannot really answer it better.He knows my alignment (town), but I do not know his it seems. The last line of my pm says something to that effect. That I am not sure of his alignment.Here you said PK knows you're allignment. Vi says PK doesn't know you're allignment. One of you 2 are lying.
freeko wrote:Just so you know korts, the caravan reaches the destination town on day 6. It is the last rule in the Other category.PK and Iwin by either siomply making it to the town or by finding all scum. (Would be hard to get killed if there are no scum left I think)Here you say PK and you BOTH win by making it to the next town. Vi says PK does not have that win condition. Again, one of the 2 of you are lying.
freeko wrote:The reason you vote for PK is thatI cannot confirm PK while PK can confirm me.again you say PK can confirm you. blah blah one of you are lying
freeko wrote:Rhinox has it right on the money when he said thatPK knows my alignment and I do not know his.and again...
freeko wrote:Though I have the basic town win condition of "find the scum", I think I am likely to be an indifferent 3rd party.As I only care about getting to the next town alive.again with the alternate win condition...
freeko wrote:I know andPK knows that I am town aligned.I do not know his alignment though.again with PK knowing your allignment...
Also, here's something else I found...
ORLY?freeko wrote:If you all decide to lynch PK, then so be it.I dont agree with this lynch,but I understand why it would happen.
freeko wrote:So my scumdar goes something like this. I will gain information by thelynchingof RS,Korts, orPK.you said you would gain info from lynching PK...
freeko wrote:Anyways. My speculation is that PK is trying to hide something from me. He did not participate in the discussion at all. All he really did was force me into tipping my hand and making me need to claim my role all the more relevant to my survival. The problem always has been that I cannot confirm him, but he can confurm me.you think PK is trying to hide something from you... (p.s. again with saying PK can confirm you)
freeko wrote: I want him replaced. hopefully his replace metn could do.. SOMETHING in the game where PK did nothing in our discussion thread in the last game night. Along with obviously being absent for this game day as well.As an extension of this, I would not entirely mind him getting lynched, as I cannot cofirm his alignment. The way the pm I have is worded is so that I am to be suspicious of his alignment right from the start.here you say you wouldn't mind him being lynched...
freeko wrote:This is unfortunate, we are at an impasse effectively. Is there a possibility of modkilling if no one replaces?here you say you want him modkilled if not replaced...
So why is it that when we were actually considering lynching PK, you said you didn't agree with it?
*facepalm* Seriously? thats all you got? I've let it slide before you not reading and misrepping me, but now its rediculous. OBVIOUSLY, what I was saying is that if you are scum, then Vi can live for a while, but I wouldn't call Vi confirmed town if you are scum.freeko wrote:Cry OMGUS all you want, but its not about you voting for me. Its about you not wanting people to live when they are confirmed town. Only reason for that is obvious.-
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Sheesh... from no activity, to not being able to keep up...
yeah... I see what you're saying, but I think you're trying too hard. As I believe what I actually said was if freeko was scum, you've earned your right to live and NOT be tomorrow's lynch, but if freeko is town, then you're scum (see my last post for "Reasons why one of the 2 of you are lying").Vi wrote:I like how thinly veiled this is getting.
Vote: Rhinox(L-5)
If he's scum, we lynch Korts-scum for being his partner.
If he's Town, we lynch Korts-scum for feeding his wrongness.
See what I did there?
Korts is the one being ambiguous. He's the one who brought up that he thought you were both scum. I agreed that he had a point, but knowing one of the two of you have to be scum (see my last post for "Reasons why one of the 2 of you are lying"), I think that freeko is more likely scum and should be lynchedfirstbefore considering whether or not freeko and Vi are potentially scum partners (I think my use of the word first was wrong and not representative of what I was trying to say)
So, while I understand your concerns, I think you were reading too much into what my intentions were/are slash not realizing how obviously freeko has been lying since the mason claim was made.
hehe... uh-oh, beware Vi's wrath!BSG wrote:Before I'll go into the things that has been said sinceVI'sfirst post (welcome BTW), I'd like to know from Freeko what his role is called in the PM.
Pre-emptive EBWOP:
You were perfectly happy to lynch korts as soon as the day began, and you were not sure he was scum. That had nothing to do with just moving the game along, which by the way is THE WORST reason ever for lynching someone, unless there is a deadline imminent.freeko wrote:I would not entirely be happy with lynching someone who I was not sure was scum, but I would have done it to move the game forward.In reality I would have been expecting the NK there so I would have been able to get away from this game pretty cleanly and not really care that half the people in the game then are inactive.
Also, just because you "expected to be the nk", that doesn't mean that you should automatically stop caring about events in the game that may be a deciding factor in whether or not your side wins... That sounds selfish and scummy to me...
Instead of sarcasm, maybe you should try to explain how you have not been obviously lying about your role all game...freeko wrote:Now that your skills at taking things out of context are complete. I now grank you the rank of context knight. You still have a ways to go before you are one with the context of things.-
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C'MON! this isn't pinging anyone elses Radar as rolefishing, now, on top of everything else?freeko wrote:
You tell me yours and I will tell you mine. There will be no other terms or negotiation here.I'd like to know from Freeko what his role is called in the PM.
Freeko, it should not be too hard to just answer the question. You've already claimed your role... might as well give us a name. Also, please quit dodging the issue and explain to me how I'm taking things out of context, and how you've not been lying.
BSG, the only part of my post directed to you was the part about Vi's wrath... the first line about not being able to catch up is because everyone is posting so rapidly at the moment, that everytime I post I'm crossposting, so I'm not being able to keep up...-
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Vi wrote:2) Prom King claimed to confirm freeko as Town. freeko understandably had no idea what was going on with that, because my Role PM says absolutely nothing about a confirmed-Town partner and I'm willing to believe freeko's doesn't either. So here you have a conflict of interest for freeko - Prom King is calling freeko obvTown AND is "linked" to him, but at the same time is acting like obvscum who deserves a noose necklace.
ok... I see whats going on here... This may potentially be a huge oversight on my part... I thought freeko kept insisting that PK could confirm him because it said so in his (freeko's) role PM. But why wouldn't freeko have just said that to clear it up, instead of acting all wierd and saying nothing but "your taking things out of context and fabricating"...Vi wrote:And this is a no-win scenario, because I believe freeko is Town (if not confirmed Town).
If you're up in arms about someone lying, I've already covered that Prom King lied to you and everyone about having a confirmed partner, so there's really no mystery about it. But I don't think you're interested in who's lying, so long as one of us gets lynched.
Also, lining up lynches is *bad* in the general sense.
However, I have another question... shouldn't the topic of whether or not the masons can confirm each other come up in the quicktopic pre-game discussion? I've never been a mason before, but that seems like the first thing I would want to ask my partner...
Occam and myself have both said we don't have any 6 day alternate win condtition in our roles PM.Vi wrote:1) That our win condition is to survive until D6, with eliminating the bad guys being secondary. This is an understandable misreading (well, understandable to me because I can read my own Role, although I can't quote it to you) but, as mentioned earlier, not the case. Dare I ask if anyone else got a similar message in their flavor text?
Also, my issue with freeko's claim of an alternate win condition is that:
A) if he has it in his role PM, then he's (probably) the only one, but in one post he claimed that you and him both had that win condition (and you've confirmed today that you dont, and
B) If he doesn't have it in his role PM, it seems like he read the rules, saw that the town made it to the next town at the start of day 6, and assumed that all town probably had that win condition as well - however, the fact that he originally stated he recognized it as an alternate win condition makes me think A) is more likely, unless he stated it that way to be safe, and thought townies would come to his rescue saying "oh I have that win condition too..."
^^those issues aside, I still don't know why freeko has a problem stating his role name, now that we already know his role, and I find it extremely scummy to ask for BSG's role name in return.ok, so he's given us his name now... seems believable to me.
@Freeko, does your role PM state Vi can confirm you, or did you just infer that based on PK actually claiming you were town? Does your role specifically say you have an alternate win condition of making it to the next town alive, or did you just infer that from the flavor? I want answers to these questions before I consider unvoting.
@Raider: I've been trying to get a read on you all game... I get the feeling you play as sort of an active lurker... would you say that is an accurate description of your playstyle, and do you think that is a legitamite strategy to use as town?
Ah yes... the wrath of Vi returns.Vi wrote:Um, hello? You DO realize who you're talking to, right?
P.S. Next game you mod, you should include a Dayvig named Right Said Fred, who must include the phrase "I'm too sexy" in every post
Mod-Edit Votecount 2-6
Rhinox - 3 (Vi, Freeko, Korts)
Freeko - 2 (Rhinox, BSG)
Not Voting - 5 (Megaflareon, Lunar_Tick, Sipylus, Raider, Juls)
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick and Sipylus, in that order. Megaflareon has one day to respond to his/her prod.
Deadline is in 17 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.-
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FFS yourself...
These are two simple and easy to answer questions, and neither requires you to quote your role PM. I'll make it multiple choice.Rhinox wrote:@Freeko, does your role PM state Vi can confirm you, or did you just infer that based on PK actually claiming you were town? Does your role specifically say you have an alternate win condition of making it to the next town alive, or did you just infer that from the flavor? I want answers to these questions before I consider unvoting.
1: Does your role PM state Vi can confirm you, or did you just infer that based on PK actually claiming you were town?
A)Yes, my role PM says Vi/PK knows I'm town.
B)No, my role PM does not say so, but I thought PK knew I was town since he claimed in thread I was town.
C)FFS... I'm being unnecessarily defensive and hostile, and I refuse to answer any question or be helpful in any way.
2: Does your role specifically say you have an alternate win condition of making it to the next town alive, or did you just infer that from the flavor?
A) My win condition says I win when all threats to the town are eliminated, or if I survive to make it to the next town.
B) My win condition says I win when all threats to the town are eliminated. The flavor to my role says I only care about making it to the next town, but is not stated as a win condition.
C) I don't care what you have to say, and I'm not going to be helpful to the town.
So far you have answered C for both questions. I want to hear in your next post a clear A or B answer for each question. There will be no compromise here. Give an F-ing straight answer already.
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Sort of... I'm still piecing some things together.Raider wrote:I dont try to be an active lurker but I do come across like that. So I guess it could be considered an accurate description but I try to be more then that. I guess you need to play a few games with me to see that. My problem is that I miss the little things other people pick up on. Some people have a knack for it, I am not one of those people. As far as a legitimate strategy I would have to say sure, I have yet to be replaced in any game I have been in. One thing that gets me is when someone has an argument I stay out of it until I decide which side I think it right.
Hope that explains it.
By legitimite strategy, I meant, do you think it is a protown way to play?
The problem I forsee with staying out of arguments until you decide which side is right is that it sounds dangerously like scum fence-sitting until there is a wagon to jump on...
You made this comment earlier:
But, you've only placed 2 votes the entire game, both on the same person: your random on monkeyman, and then the vote on the monkeyman wagon. Its seems to me like you're not following your own advice - you say the way to get people talking and figure out the best player to lynch is to throw your vote around, but you haven't done that at all. Should I infer, then, that you're intentionally playing in a way to not generate discussion to figure out the best player to lynch?raider wrote:Not removing your vote is not a bad thing it causes discussions and that is always good. I am a reserved voter as in I normaly do not vote unless I have reason too. However I have learned its the people that toss their votes around that get people talking and in the end figure out the best people to lynch.-
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Thanks...freeko wrote:Oh wow. I think I get it.. A (were)wolf in sheep's clothing. What an excellent flavor for this game.
Oh, I guess since you made it multiple choice. The closest answers are B for both of them. Though for the first one I would add that PK is/was a (fill in the blank how you wish)ing idiot. The second one is spot on though.unvotewhile I reread and figure out whats going on now.
FYI, the reason I voted for you is because I thought when you first roleclaimed, you said the answers to those questions were both A, and Vi came in and said the answers were both B. You should have been more clear with your initial claim, and when it became apparent I didn't understand 100% what you actually claimed was your role and what was just flavor or inferred, and when I asked you to clarify how I was misrepping you, taking things out of context, and fabricating, maybe you could have actually done that instead of calling me scum.
I'm still suspicious of you for asking for a role name from BSG before giving your role name.
BSG, just to clarify, were you asking freeko to confirm what his role is labeled as in his PM (mason or neighbor), or were you actually asking him for his flavor name?-
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Since thats the case, then I'm suspicious of your question...BSG wrote:Flavor name, as it was already clear that the actual name isn't mentioned in the PM.
I mean, I know why you would want to know if you're town - to see if the flavor name is similar in style to your town flavor name... however, we don't know you're town. In a theme game, rolename fishing aka flavor fishing is kinda scummy, since scum need an idea of flavor and names they can use if/when they need to fake claim.
vote BSG, but still exploring other routes as well.-
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oh wow... I completely missed Vi:408... have some comments on it:Vi wrote:...and your seeming-ignorance of me OBVIOUSLY BANDWAGONING SOMEONE is out of place.
I don't remember L_T saying he had mod-giving info about the choices, I think L_T incinuated that there might be mod-given info in some people's roles (I.E. RS) about picking paths, and he said so in a scummy role fishing kind or way.Vi wrote:RS later joined the Lunar_Tick wagon in 67 after L_T said he had mod-given info about which choices are better than others. Whoever replaces L_T needs to talk about this, pronto.
This is what I'm trying to determine.Vi wrote:raider seems to like slipping by. His comments tend to be dispensable one-liners. Am I missing a meta here, or is this an obvious front for activity?
You're right... this is VERY interesting.vi wrote:THIS is interesting. Did you seriously think until me and freeko claimed that all the Townies were sheep? Excoos me for being incredulous here. With no sample Townie PM to base your judgment on, this either means your role is Sheep and your role PM has no indication that anyone else in the caravan is human, OR you have no idea who's in the Town because you're not one of them.
I was trying to be discrete, so as to not remove any pressure LT might have been feeling as a result of my vote being on him. The LT wagon was the first of the game, and it happened to be on who I randomed for. Instead of unvoting with an "OMG why is LT being wagoned", I decided the LT wagon was a good oportunity to see how everybody reacted to an early, unjustified wagon (IMO, an LT lynch would have been entirely unjustified). Both my comments are truth. If LT would have been lynched and were scum, then there probably would have been some underlying justification for the wagon that I just didn't see. my second comment was my way of saying my vote should be seen as random and left strictly for pressure/reactions without actually saying "my vote had no purpose but for pressure."Vi wrote:Occam 104 wrote:
Why are you still on LT's wagon? Do you feel it's justified?
Um, what?Rhinox 107 wrote:
That all depends on whether or not LT is scum.
Um, what?Rhinox 134 wrote:
Well, seeing as my vote was random and the first vote on LT, I'm not really part of the wagon. My vote should be analyzed separately from the rest of the bandwagon votes.
ty;dr version: my vote on LT was random, but it was left on after the wagon started for pressure. My comments were meant to keep up the facade that the vote had a real threat of leading to a LT lynch, so that we would maybe get some sort of reaction out of LT (that never came, but it was interesting to see who jumped on the wagon, and who avoided it alltogether - a subject I really should revisit now that you've reminded me about it).
I get the feeling you're ALWAYS going to have an uneasy read on me do to past games unless we're confirmed masons together, or on the same scum team.Vi wrote:When not saying overtly suspicious things, Rhinox has come off as somewhat reasonable, to produce a generally uneasy read on him.
(And Juls, I know better than you do how good Rhinox is at this game )
Oh my... Its perfect! /pre-in!!!Vi wrote:When Jailbreak is over, I'll poll everyone about what the next game's theme should be. An iPod theme is definitely one of the optionsRight Said Fred Daykill: I'm too sexy for Rick Astley-
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So is OMGUS!korts wrote:unvote, vote: Rhinox
Opportunism is a solid tell.
wait... lets try that again...
Its awfully opportunistic to vote someone for being opportunistic, no?korts wrote:unvote, vote: Rhinox
Opportunism is a solid tell.
One more time?
Lies.korts wrote:unvote, vote: Rhinox
Opportunism is a solid tell.
Now for the "playing it straight" answer:
My post 420 is actually an extension of post 419, I just didn't put the EBWOP at the top. So I was still being vebose. I voted you for the point Vi made about you slipping up and calling MM a sheep - I thought he had a good point - and for a bit of pressure, and Vi wanted to wagon you, so I thought I would see where it went. Plus, Vi said you claimed scum. Can't argue with thatkorts wrote:unvote, vote: Rhinox
Opportunism is a solid tell.
So you've said you're a sheep. Don't know why you would assume all townspeople were sheep, but that goes for whether you're actually town or scum. I don't think you need to claim - no sense in outing your super-sheep powers. Vi's expressed curiousity in what power you might have is noted.
unvote
Back to BSG... BSG, why did you want to know freeko's flavor name? I was assuming you were asking for him to give his role name, I.E. mason or neighbor, to see if it was consistent with what Vi said.
1) I don't know how well you keep tabs on your ongoings in which you're deceased in, but I replaced into one of them where you were lynched D1 as scum. I'm exploring a bit of this meta connection since you're playstyle seems similar to that game.Raider wrote:I did say the best way to start conversation is to toss your votes around. However that is not how I like to play. I do not concidered it pro-town or anti-town as that is just how I play.1) I have been lynched for it as town and scum but that is just how I like to play. I like to think I become more useful as the days goes on as I have bandwagons to look into and more general information on the other players.We are on day 2 and you have placed 8 votes. To me that says you are just trying to lynch anyone.2) Is 8 votes excessive or are you just not sure who should be lynched?If I vote someone I fully intend to see that person lynched or gain some valuable information from it. It sounds like you are trying to twist my playstyle around to sound like my play is always scummy however I play based on the information I have. Alot of new information has come about in the last couple of days.3) We do not need to rush things.
I dislike the excuse "well I've been lynched for my playstyle as town as scum, so you should view it as a null tell because its just how I play", because you're basically admitting that you're aware your playstyle comes across as scummy to people, and you've done nothing to change it. Thus, when you're town, your playstyle is anti-town and detrimental to your win-condition if it gets you lynched and you have the self-awareness to forsee that your playstyle could get you lynched. My logic says, then, that you shouldn't act this way as town (because it would be anti-town and against your win condition), so the only other option is you're scum. I can also conclude that you only act that way as town, then, so you can have a meta defense when you want to lurk as scum (such as the game I replaced into).
2) Thats quite a loaded question. I don't think 8 votes are excessive, and yes I am currently unsure of who would be today's best lynch. But I like to use my vote to help determine that in addition to questions and logic - especially early in the game when there is less to go on and I'm more unsure than later in the game. I think if you meta my past games, you'll see that I throw my vote more early in the game, and later in the game I'm more sure of who to vote for and don't throw my vote around as much. Furthermore, when I'm throwing my vote around, I usually either ask questions/make comments along with my vote, intended to invoke a response, or I explain my vote afterwards when the utility of my vote has worn off (such as with my votes on LT, and now korts in this game). I also have a personal goal of always knowing who my top suspect is, so I should always be able to have my vote on someone. Sometimes that gets me into trouble when I try to hard to find a reason to vote someone. Its also not a rule, so I don't follow it religously. Thats why I call it a goal - its more like a destination of how I would ultimately like to play all the time as town.
3) I'm not intending to rush anything, and I don't know what gives you that idea... ok, maybe after Vi replaced in and I was really confident in lynching freeko, but that was based on a misunderstanding of what I thought freeko said was in his role. Other than that, what gives you the idea that I'm in any hurry to rush things along?-
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So... let me know then when you're actually being atacked for itVi wrote:Wow, what a horribly weak excuse for an attack. You'll notice I didn't ask for a claim; I was just amused by the potential for a Sheep role.
Your overreaction to my statement that WASN'T an attack, is now also noted.
No, I don't view it as backpedalling... excuse me for humoring your attempt at a wagon on Korts. If you'll notice, I was expressing concerns about BSG before jumping on the wagon... Did you really think I just thought "Oh forget it, Vi's going to let me get away jumping on Korts wagon so we can lynch him and no one will notice I didn't support my vote lololololllollololl" without intending to return to my concerns about BSG at some point (either after the korts wagon lost its utility, or korts really did claim scum and we lynched him )? You've been in too many of my completed games (3/5) for me to think you don't know better than that...Vi wrote:Y'know, on most non-kiddie bicycles backpedaling doesn't actually do anything.
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In light of Rhinox 416, again, backpedaling.
NPC Jebus was sheep in the mod N0 flavorkill...freeko wrote:Though Korts is the ONLY person to refer to anyone or anything as sheep in this game.-
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hehe... lets see how freeko gets daykilledfreeko wrote:Oh my..
That should be Vi.. Sorry about that.
hmmm... don't know what to make of this post. On the surface, its rolefishing. However, he might be completely honest here... wolves might be told to go after the sheep, so someone with a role as wolf would both know that sheep exist, and suspect that sheep are town (assuming wolf would be a scum role)... The "mafia" in this game might be a pack of wolves, or there might be a different mafia group, and a lone wolf sk type who's wincon is to eliminate the sheep... I remember someone talking about wolves before, going to go see if I can find out who.Raider wrote:Is anyone else a sheep? I knew from the start there was a sheep as my role hinted towards that. I sort of went into that before thinking that Freeko was a sheep or going to claim that. I have reason to believe that the sheep is also town.-
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I never really said you only take the popular side...raider wrote: And if you remember you said I only take the popular side in this case I am taking korts side.
But since we've already had the conversation about your playstyle, you taking korts side now can be seen as you trying to WIFOM us into thinking you're town because you're not taking the popular side, so... Don't know if you were intending to shoot down my meta observation by saying that just now, or if it was more of a "by the way..." type comment to just take a jab at me.-
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