Mini Normal 1775 END!

[knightmare]

/confirm

[knightmare]

VOTE: chilledtea

Hot tea is better.

[knightmare]

CONFORM

Clear scum tell

VOTE: Goodlordwill

Shameless sheeping.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Goodlordwill

[knightmare]

For reactions.

Do you think it's alignment indicative?

[knightmare]

That's not an answer to the question, and your last statement is irrelevant because it's not a fact.

I did it because I was amused by smith's reason and knew it would generate reactions. Simple enough. I'd say it's done the job thus far.

So I ask you again - is it scummy? I would like you to explain this one.

[knightmare]

Ok - explain why it is more likely to come from scum.

You can't really say my reason isn't valid. You asked me why I did it and I gave you my answer. If you don't like it then idk what to tell you lol. Again, you're presenting

opinions

as if they are facts which isn't good play in the very least. I was amused by smith's joke vote and figured sheeping it to get something started was better than doing nothing.

Does it matter that I picked his over someone else's? Who would've been a better wagon to vote on prior to that?

[knightmare]

Also - why does it matter that I made an RVS vote before switching?

[knightmare]

Also no "i found his >rvs< reasoning funny" isnt a good reason.

Considering the state of the game at the time, it was good enough of a reason. I don't need some deep thought process to sheep someone's joke vote. That's a stupid point for you to make.

[knightmare]

Ok - explain why it is more likely to come from scum.

Scum reasons:
Blending with another player.
Sheeping a teammate.

Town reasons:
Getting a Wagon started (I already explained why this one's not possible, you would've done it with your first vote if that was your intention).
Reaction Test (Seems to be your explanation, but a reaction test stops being one when everyone knows what's coming).

1) Blending in by doing an action that directly lead to me getting attention? Seems counter productive.
2) Huge reach at this point. There's literally no evidence to suggest this.

You are straw manning the Hell out of this case.

1) Again, you cannot tell me how I would've used my vote. The fact I made an RVS before wagoning doesn't mean shit. You are reaching.
2) I did want to generate discussion/reactions, and it's worked. You bit and now others can weigh in on our interactions.

Also - why does it matter that I made an RVS vote before switching?

I refuse to believe that a Town player would just go "Hey let's vote a random person" and one hour later goes "Oh hey let's randomly sheep this person instead for reactions". Once again, why didn't you do it with your first vote? What made you change your approach this game in that 1 hour time frame? seems a little quick...

Timeframe is irrelevant. It really makes no difference that I made an RVS vote before wagoning someone because the purpose is still the same.

"Refuse to believe" ? That's a rather hard line to take so early in the game when your reasons for me being scum aren't that good in the first place. Not sure if you're scum or just extremely subjective in your scum hunting, but either way it's not a good look.

I would like some others to get involved at this point.

[knightmare]

Alright, but actually. Way too defensive already. It's page 2. Hot damn.

Defensiveness isn't a scum tell.

Townies and scum don't want to get lynched either way. I'm gonna call out bad reasons regardless. This counts as one.

[knightmare]

Ynaut
VOTE: knightmare

Anything else you wanna add?

[knightmare]

I didn't say it's why I voted you. I completely RVS'd. It's page 2, why would you get lynched...?

This wasn't clear from the way you made your posts. I took your second as the reason for your vote.

[knightmare]

You are correct. I actually do believe defensiveness leans more scum. Especially if scum thinks they are

caught and shouldn't be.

I still disagree. I think townies are just as likely to attack bad cases against them. I've caught a lot go scum for this very thing when they push BS reasons for scum reads.

[knightmare]

Yep. Good enough for a first vote. Not good enough for Knight to have to defend. Plus Knight's defense stinks. For reactions, really?

Sakura's reason was because I sheeped an RVS vote. You agree that's scummy?

Also, seriously - why the fuck else would I sheep an RVS vote that was clearly going nowhere while blatantly saying I was shamelessly sheeping it if not for reactions?

JFC you guys lack critical thinking skills.

[knightmare]

Oh hey knight is scum. Good find, whoever started this. Early wagons rule. BLOOD!

VOTE: knight

Stats say at least one of the people on my wagon by now is scum.

Is it you?

VOTE: Lowell

More seriously - did you actually read anything or are you just parroting off of someone you can't even readily recall after 2 pages of reading?

[knightmare]

You are correct. I actually do believe defensiveness leans more scum. Especially if scum thinks they are

caught and shouldn't be.

I still disagree. I think townies are just as likely to attack bad cases against them. I've caught a lot go scum for this very thing when they push BS reasons for scum reads.

Out of curiosity, knight, have you caught scum for "BS reasons for scum reads" right of the RVS gate? Or is that a process that happens later on?

Not RVS, no. It tends to hold more firmly as the game progresses, but that could be as early as EOD1 depending on the type of content that is produced. I find that sometimes scum struggle to come up with reasons to push townies, so they have to make 'narratives' that frame someone in a bad way. That's why I find it important to challenge people on points that I think are bad/not scummy and force them to explain their POV more clearly. It's not fool proof because bad =/= scum all the time but it's constructive behavior nonetheless. Make them be on record so that it can be reviewed later if need be.

[knightmare]

I don't find knightmares intial reaction scummy or townie I feel like it's null for early game,

Jumping onto another wagon and switching your votes in rvs isn't alignment indicative

. His latter talks with sakura seem a bit overly defensive but I don't know knightmare enough to attribute that to a trait. I can see a newer player being defensive but when I went to meta him this is his second game and he hasn't finished the other.

Knightmare have you played on other sites you seem pretty knowledgeable?

Bold is the point I've been stressing the entire time. Amazing.

You're right, this is my second game here on MS. I've been playing Mafia for a while, but I think I'm still adjusting to how things are done here so I feel like the new kid in school or something - which might be where some of the edge comes from. But I also maintain Sakura's reason was bad though, thus reacting as I did.

[knightmare]

Firstly - I would ask why didn't you say this from the get go? It wouldn't have made your vote look as bad as it did initially otherwise.

Secondly - I can tell by reading this that you are working under the assumption that I think I've caught Sakura as scum? That's not the case at all. So with that in mind - let me address your points now.

OK.

Your reaction towards Sakura was really bad. I feel you aren't considering the motivations behind her posts and instead are just posturing here. As a few examples: what is the purpose in calling a post on page like 2 "reaching"?

Who do you think is more likely to "reach" on page 2

, scum who wants to blend in and avoid tipping anyone off; or town who starts with the game with no information and thus wants to push around to get reactions? Both of which are things you said in this thread btw so I know you're aware of this. I think you saw her pushing you and got worried that it would gain traction, and overreacted.

Moreover for someone who acts like they caught scum straight out of RVS phase you haven't so much as voted her and instead keep your vote on the RVS wagon you joined? If you were going for reactions here you should have voted her. I think what you did is more like scum testing the waters to see if their push would be well received before wanting to commit to it, than town who is believing of what they're saying.

Your entire angle contradicts itself tbh, and it's for this reason I'm voting you.

I can react badly to something and still be townie, first and foremost.

Sakura's reason for voting me was crap, and I addressed it as much. You are assuming, again, that I didn't consider their motive. I wondered if perhaps they were just pushing a bad case to see how I'd react, but later she apparently doubled down on it when I pushed her to explain more. So I doubt that was what she was doing.

I called her post reaching because that's what it was. It being on page 2 is irrelevant. A reach is a reach, and her trying to say I could be scum sheeping a partner in Smith is a gigantic leap in logic for that stage of the game. The bold is something I would agree with in a generic sense, but I see what you're getting at. That said, at the point we were in the game either alignment is going to have to 'reach' to make any sort of case.

Once again, you are working under the assumption that I am scum reading Sakura outright - which isn't the case. If it was, I would've stated explicitly and I would be voting here. You'll find that I'm a pretty straight shooter and I say what I mean. I rebutted her case because it sucked, but I'm also very aware that bad cases don't always equal scum and I would need more time to gauge how she progresses elsewhere. Townies tend to trend up, scum tend to trend down in my experience.

"Refuse to believe" ? That's a rather hard line to take so early in the game when your reasons for me being scum aren't that good in the first place. Not sure if you're scum or just extremely subjective in your scum hunting, but either way it's not a good look.

This is a kind of thing I think scum are more likely to say than town because all it is a bullshit neutral sounding comment that's designed to look good and posture. If you were town and you were actually unsure out of her posts what is the point in throwing that "it's not a good look on the end" if not to throw shade at her? And if you were town and thought she was more likely to be scum, you would have said as much instead of acting unsure about it (which again points to being afraid to commit to it).

I said it's not a good look for her because it's not a good look. Plain and simple.

For me, from my POV, I now have to try and evaluate Sakura while ignoring the bias that she is calling me scum for a shit reason if I want to remain objective. So yes, it does look bad for her imo and makes it harder for me to judge her clearly in this regard. If you want to call it posturing, fine, but I don't need to have a 100% read on a slot at this point. I can also challenge something someone says without scum reading them.

2) I did want to generate discussion/reactions, and it's worked. You bit and now others can weigh in on our interactions.

"You bit and now others can weigh in on our interactions"? Plzzzz.

[/quote]

I think you guys are taking this in the wrong way. When I said 'bit' I meant that she reacted to it. Not 'bit' as in I've caught scum who stumbled into my trap. Lol that's ridiculous

I didn't mean it in a negative context, which is apparently how you are interpreting it.

[knightmare]

I had a different understanding of the reason for Sakura's vote. I don't believe that it was just for sheeping.

I didn't say that it was scummy, I said that it was good enough for a first vote, while at the same time not good enough to bother defending against. It certainly

might

be scummy, but your continued poor defense

does

look scummy.

How can you agree if you don't know what the original reason was?

[knightmare]

All of these were perfectly fine for sheeping, yet you didn't you only did so later.

2) I "bit"? That's funny since i could've completely ignored your vote, instead i engaged you on it by asking you a question, something that can't actually be ignored.

Bold - Again,

so what

? I thought Smith's vote was funny so I picked that one. You're seriously making a mountain from a molehill.

2) I addressed this previously, but yeah... you're taking that the wrong way. I didn't mean that negatively, just that you reacted to it generally. Which you did.

VOTE: Sayaka Maizono

Early town points for chilled

I thought this was good as well.

[knightmare]

lol

Two RVS votes?

Must be scum.

[knightmare]

Eh, basically the second thing.

No but really, this guy is scum. I'm a gut player, and my gut is always* right about these things.

The entirety of his ISO is him getting madder and madder while trying to look calm and collected.

Even the latest few "let me put together a ponderous, methodical case on some rube to look like I'm helping" reeks of scum.

Again, not sure how, or why, this wagon started. But don't care. Go with me on this, sheeple. He doesn't like being caught for something so stupid, but hey it's fun for the rest of us.

* not always

This post sounds like a bunch of narrative spin to push me as scum. The bold and italics parts are especially bad, nothing objective there - just an attempt to smear me regardless.

You're acting as if there's never a world where town!Knightmare gets annoyed for being sussed and wagoned for stupid reasons.

[knightmare]

Well I would argue that knight is impossible to lynch, because as soon as the votes got serious many folks, including you, mysteriously got cold feet.

So you see we have a bit of a catch-22 here. Which hurts my brain. Let's do less thinking and more playing with our hearts... and guts.... kill knight.

It's pretty obvious why people second guess themselves when you plop scummy ass votes on my wagon in the manner you did.

You're claiming a lot of ignorance regarding the events of the thread considering how hard you want to lynch me. So instead of acting like opportunistic scum who thinks they've found low hanging fruit - you reread and bring something original to the table?

[knightmare]

Enough of knightmare to get an initial town lean on him. Sayaka though could use some pressure to get them talking.

Can you explain more please?

VOTE: Sayaka

Preliminary town leans: chilled, Garmr & knight. Everyone else is more or less in the null zone.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on those two. Garmr seems to be looking at things objectively but he also strikes me as a strong player generally so I would say my town lean there is cautiously light. I liked chilled's reaction to Sayaka's naked vote earlier, I had similar thoughts to what I'm assuming he did in that instance.

[knightmare]

VOTE: knightmare
Why RVS twice?

The expressed reason was not for sheeping. I can read.

You're right actually, and apparently I have been working off a misunderstanding this entire time. I thought Sakura was sussing me for sheeping an RVS vote, when I guess originally it was because I made a second one? LOL... still, both are terrible reasons to be scum reading me and I stand by that. Saying I am defensive for arguing how these are bad is also a terrible reason to be scum reading me.

I get that it's D1 and players tend to leap on the first person who moves, but when I'm getting pushed for bad crap like this what happens is that it opens up the door for

actual scum

(hint hint: Lowell) to start pushing me for it as well.

[knightmare]

What part?

[knightmare]

Having to think hard to figure out a motive is more or less what I meant about reaching. You had to

really think

as to how it could be scummy for me to do so, and even then you came up with two reasons that weren't very strong.

I think I have stated from the get-go that your reason to push me was bad, and I'll continue to reiterate even now considering I realize that apparently the issue wasn't that I sheep'd Smith's vote (which I did for reactions, thus answering you in such a way since I assumed that was what you were talking about) but because I made a second RVS vote. So no, I don't feel I've misrepped you. The reaching point was just another in which I was proving your case was bad.

All that said, I'm over it. I don't really think you are scum at this point, but I think you need to be a little more critical in how you interpret a player's actions.

[knightmare]

@knight: I don't recall her saying or implying that you were my partner. Is it your understanding that sheeping means partners?

31

Right here.

[knightmare]

@Almost50 Idk why it embedded my question into the quote itself, when I typed it originally it was outside of it. But... *shrug*

And okay, fair enough regarding the other stuff. We will see.

[knightmare]

@Smith - thoughts on anything else? Anything that has stood out to you, good or bad?

Looking at my wagon there is already a decent chance scum is on it. I feel like as much as I've been discussed at this point there's no way they don't bite at the chance to wagon me.

Figure out who it is.

My bet is between Lowell/Boon.

[knightmare]

@knight: This is my first time doing RVS so... I don't know? It does seem that you've been taking this surprisingly seriously, so I wonder if you're a bit too defensive.

But frankly, my scum hunting approach is to try and figure out sincerity, try and figure out who's fake scum hunting, etc. I find it difficult to parse out the BS that's town trying reaction testing and messing with people form the BS that's alignment indicative.

PS Why do you think there's scum on your wagon? Why not just a bunch of townies that thought it'd be fun/interesting/productive to build a quick wagon and see what happens? Do you think that the wagon was a serious attempt to kill you and bring D1 to a quick close?

PPS Did you notice that the only person who hasn't posted since the confirms went in was the scum I caught? Why abandon such a clear winning wagon?

Why is it surprising for someone to be serious? I play these games because they're fun but I also like to win them.

PS: Based purely from a mathematical standpoint, it's already likely that there's scum on my wagon. Any random populace in the game of 4 or more players

should

produce at least one scum. I was up to L-2 at one point. Your question is a good one to ask though. The difference is in how I have been cased. Do you get the vibe that anyone who was wagoning me is doing it just for kicks? Or am I legitimately getting pushed as a serious scum candidate? When it's the latter, knowing my alignment, I now have to discern who is genuine and who is just trying to kill me because they need the mislynch. Can everyone who voted me be all town? Yes, but I strongly doubt it.

PPS: I lol'd at this, good one. Tbh, I haven't noticed though - but I will be giving players their due diligence as they come in though. Expedience/Madonna seem to be the next two up.

[knightmare]

PS: Based purely from a mathematical standpoint, it's already likely that there's scum on my wagon. Any random populace in the game of 4 or more players should produce at least one scum. I was up to L-2 at one point. Your question is a good one to ask though. The difference is in how I have been cased. Do you get the vibe that anyone who was wagoning me is doing it just for kicks? Or am I legitimately getting pushed as a serious scum candidate? When it's the latter, knowing my alignment, I now have to discern who is genuine and who is just trying to kill me because they need the mislynch. Can everyone who voted me be all town? Yes, but I strongly doubt it.

What I'm getting from this post is that you honestly thought (or at least heavily suspected) that it was a serious attempt to kill you. What in that stream of votes made you think that? The L-2 vote in particular was such flagrant bullshit that even I picked up on it.

The fact I got to L-2 alone is troubling for me. Perhaps it's a cultural difference from where I come from and here, but I am not used to wagons being formed for amusement. If you're asking what votes in particular I find the most suspect? Boon and Lowell, as I've stated already.

And I also don't think anyone's vote on me was not serious, minus Almost50. Do you disagree?

I'm not saying I would've been lynched within the first 24 hours of the game - but taking into context the discussion from today - I don't think it's unreasonable to say that I was/am a legit lynch candidate.

[knightmare]

@Expedience/Goodwill - is your post about Lowell a meta thing or are you speaking generally?

Look at 81 again and let me know what you think.

[knightmare]

Oops that should be 84.

My bad.

[knightmare]

This is knight:

"OMG Lowell do something original!"

/OMGUSvotes

Just noting that Lowell continues to make up new reasons to scum read me without taking into account my other content.

Or talking about anything else.

More votes here plz

[knightmare]

@madonna: is it your opinion that the wagon was a serious attempt to end d1 quickly?

I think you're taking this the wrong way, fwiw. Your question was good but this isn't really the conclusion to draw from it.

Do I think the votes on me were serious? Yes.

Do I think I would have been lynched blindly? No.

[knightmare]

I agree with chilled.

13p set up usually is 3 Mafia, not reason to think of 3rd party until we have evidence to suggest it.

This game is considered "normal" so I'm assuming any of the roles listed under that category could be present here.

[knightmare]

I wouldn't mind more posts from Sayaka but I think they're observations on Boon was pretty sharp to point out.

Boon is more of a concern to me than Sayaka, anyway.

[knightmare]

Their observation*

Stupid autocorrect

[knightmare]

@Madonna that is probably a better explanation than I gave earlier. I think Smith took it as me saying I saw those wagoning me as attempting to end Day quickly when I meant I did think the wagon was serious. I was talking about being lynched, which I guess he connected to Day ending.

@Sayana I disagree with you about Lowell. I can accept that people think his vote for me was NAI. I do think 84 and the one from this morning are though. Him saying I am just OMGUSing is crap because there are others who voted me that I haven't attacked. His progression is bad and his focus is narrow thus far. I don't see this as townie play.

[knightmare]

I can understand tunneling, Sayana. I don't think that's the case here.

My point is that I think Lowell is

twisting things to make me look scummy

and that his perspective is not genuine.

Again, look at post 84 again I think it's pretty obvious he is not being objective.

[knightmare]

Not a huge fan of your post there A50.

[knightmare]

See that's how you wagon. With conviction!

Now do that same thing again, but on someone scummy.

Such as?

[knightmare]

I am quoting you, knightmare, but I think others have expressed this sentiment about Lowell as well, and this needs addressing. 84 is a great post. 85 and 89 are great follow-ups. There is nothing indicative of a scum mindset in these posts. 57 is a little eh, but I agree that because of knightmare's play, it is plenty fine.

In terms of content to action ratios, Lowell is doing a whole lot better than most. His reasoning has been simple and clean, and I like that.

I'm not sure we can agree to disagree on this. 84 is a terrible post. His line about me making some "deep, methodical post to look helpful that reeks of scum" is seriously bad and nothing but false conjecture. It's not an objective argument, it's an attempt to smear me. I don't find this townie at all.

85 is an exaggeration. Who was actually freaking out about my wagon? You said yourself Sakura handled it rather passively and that's the only one I would consider getting cold feet at the time that was around.

89 also doesn't make sense in the context he is agreeing with you on.

So no, I strongly disagree that he's making good posts and I find it questionable that you think so. What about his two most recent posts, what's your opinion on those?

[knightmare]

Not a huge fan of your post there A50.

Anything specific?

Basically I think your points are kind of generic. I'm not sure what that means for you, yet, but I don't find any of your arguments particularily strong.

I'll be more specific later when I can quote you properly from a device other than my phone.

[knightmare]

Tbh, reading Lowell's 84 again, I think the way he openly straight up admitted his push was in majority sheeping someone else is a town tell. I wouldn't really expect scum who are going for the "fake aggression" approach to do that. They would be all over it claiming that they had original reasons for knight being scum, not "meh someone else came up with this but it's dead on".

I don't really think he has such a strong scum read as people are claiming he is, I think people are taking issue with his methodology for pushing reads.

You're over thinking it imo. Like how can he sheep without knowing the details of the argument? It's bullshit. It's lazy town at best and opportunistic scum at worst.

We can agree to disagree but he still hasn't done shit to make me think he is town.

[knightmare]

Actually, if it helps, I think Knight is town because of the defensiveness stuff? Haha.

Unvote

RVS off. Next, please.

It doesn't.

I don't understand why you went out of your way to specify your vote on me was random after you pointed out I was doing something that you apparently perceive as a scum tell.

Which is also why you are now town reading me apparently.

Explain?

[knightmare]

VOTE: Knight

Didn't feel like reading his last post. LOL

@chilled - Lel, this was obviously RVS, but k.

It really wasn't obvious RVS though.

I said as much to you back when it happened. The sequence of your posts doesn't make it apparent, so no, I don't think it's unreasonable to draw the conclusion that you were voting me for being defensive.

[knightmare]

I was reading you as scum. From my perspective it was easy for you to come in, add some fuel to the fire and run away. Part of the reason why I think Lowell is scum because he did something similar. He was more aggressive, and his aggression has no reason.

I agree with the above. Boon has a slightly better read now that he's back and engaging, but I still think his entry was weird.

Lowell on the other hand hasn't done anything but throw mud at me while offering no other thoughts anywhere else. For as young as the game is having such hard tunnel vision isn't genuine imo. It's easy to see that my alignment is becoming more clear and basically everyone else who was scum reading me early on has shown progression in that regard except for him.

TLDR - he's scum and can't believably change his stance on me because he committed too hard to it.

[knightmare]

VOTE: Almost50

He's jumped onto every wagon, putting Knight at L-2 and Lowell at L-2, voting Sayaka in between, and now getting scum vibes from Boon. Something seems particularly wrong about putting Knight at L-2 and then putting his accuser, Lowell, at L-2.

You're another one that I'm unsure of. Out of everyone who was scum reading me, or at least supporting the case that I looked bad, you're the only one who didn't vote.

Why?

Also - do you have thoughts on anyone/anything else?

Why is L-2 the important factor here?

Thus far all I've seen you do is support scum cases on players without bringing forth any new info/opinions of your own.

[knightmare]

To be fair, I feel The almost case is pretty established. I'm not commenting on anything else, but tex really couldn't bring anything new to the almost case, I feel.

That's fair.

It doesn't excuse them not doing anything else but following other's leads though. I don't see any scum hunting coming from their end.

[knightmare]

@knightmare, 183: Paragraph responses.

1. It is true; you had not been very helpful up to his 84, just defensive. And emotional, and prone to get further emotional, all over-defensive. In that he was right, and in that I agreed.

2. Townies do not need to sweat much about a Day 1 lynch. Without better scumreads, lynching knightmare is no big thing.

3. chilledtea moved to Sayaka Maizono once you reached four votes. Sakura Hana unvoted once you hit five. 85 is good.

4. 144: it is possible you OMGUSed. 175: post references would have been great, but it is like he has conviction to stand by his vote. Not scummy.

1. Do agree that I made some long, methodical post in order to seem helpful that reeked of scum? That sort of rhetoric is scummy imo.

2. I'm not sure what your point is here.

3. chilled was never a serious vote on my wagon, so I don't think he counts. I'm pretty sure I know exactly why he moved his vote to Sayana when he did, plus he was never calling for me to get lynched. Sakura did unvote later but as you've described yourself (and are scum reading her for, I believe?) passively backed down from it. So yes, 85 definitely is exaggerated. To use his own words, who reacted

unreasonably

?

4. Post 175 is garbage and offers nothing constructive. It's a pop-in post. He doesn't address anything said against him, doesn't interact with me at all, and doesn't mention any suspects. There's nothing to it.

[knightmare]

L-2 is not the important factor. It's jumping on every wagon that looks scummy to me.

No new info? Hmmm...wasn't I the one who pointed out that Sakura's reason for voting you wasn't sheeping.

I am seeing some possible connections between people, but without any flips they aren't worth very much.

That's true, you did, but it doesn't mean much for your alignment imo. When I say you aren't bringing new information I mean that I have no idea where you are with anyone. You've mostly been out of the bigger convos and come in to drop a vote on Almost once a case on him starts building.

What is your opinion on the other wagons?

Sakura/Lowell?

[knightmare]

Which Almost50 vote?

And okay, you're symphathetic to Lowell's case. It seems most are. You agree with him that the vote was warranted when he put it down. Okay, fine - I'm cool with that. The issue

now

is that we have progressed past that point in the game and yet

he is still holding on to it while doing nothing else to help town

.

See the difference?

[knightmare]

Personally I am null on Almost50. He has done some stuff that bugs me a little but that could just be his playstyle. I certainly don't think he looks scummier than other players.

Sakura I am leaning town on. I don't really buy into the theory that she, as scum, sees a mislynch building up and decides to switch gears and suss the wagon instead of riding it out. If she pulls off that sort of transition as scum then bravo but tbh after what she scum read me for originally I'm not sure.

[knightmare]

Almost50 flipping town wouldn't really affect my read on Sakura. It would just mean that a flailing townie didn't vote her.

???

Why is A50 flailing and why should he be voting Sakura?

[knightmare]

This is exactly the problem with making connections without flips.

Got any other town/scum reads?

[knightmare]

Lol not gonna happen.

Is this another one of your 'gut' reads? Thus far you're 0/1 on those.

If you want any sort of credibility to start demanding people follow your reads then you might wanna offer something other than your subjective rhetoric.

Did you read change on me? If so, when/why? Do you have any other reads?

Smith is a new player - so how do you think that affects him on the uncertainty point?

[knightmare]

Madonna, I'll just be blunt about it.

I think you town reading Lowell for what he has done thus far this game is pretty sketchy. I'm not sure what that means about his alignment in conjunction with yours yet but it certainly doesn't make me feel good about you.

[knightmare]

Thumbs up?

[knightmare]

Toss in a50 and could that be scum team? Could it really be THAT easy? Would they really be THAT blatant? Worth considering I suppose. Easy answers make me uneasy but it's not like scum teams never screw up. Hmm...

I doubt it tbh. I still need to figure A50 out. Some of his argument I could see scum making, his case on Sayana in particular I don't find good. But that could also be how he scum hunts. So idk. He's null pending more info. I don't think the L-2 thing people keep bringing up is important though. Like A50, as scum, is intentionally holding out just so he can make L-2 votes? Seriously far fetched.

What bugs me about Lowell/Madonna is her way of arguing his points for him. As to where others seem to be trying to evaluate him, she seems more interested in just countering my case which doesn't make sense to me. Like unless that read is super strong, which I don't see how that can be considering his content so far. So it worries me. Is it white knighting or is she protecting scum!Lowell?

[knightmare]

I doubt Sayana is scum.

Garmr is also very townie.

chilledtea, Garmr, Sakura, Sayana and Smith are town reads for me.
Boon is a lighter shade of green, but he's trending up.

Goodwill/A50 are nullish. Expedience I'm not sure about yet so I'll leave him null too.

Madonna looks scummy. Lowell looks scummy. Texcat looks scummy.

I will lynch any of those three today.

[knightmare]

Ignored the case in general. Typical scum move; focus on something else.

Is this different than what Lowell is doing?

[knightmare]

Maybe you should actually address him then, Lowell.

Also - why am I scum? Lay it out for me, bullet point style if you want.

What are your reads elsewhere? I wanna know what you think about Madonna.

Your bottom three are horrid and besides myself I think the other two are town. So essentially 0/3. For someone pushing with such bravado you lack any real substance to back it.

[knightmare]

Yeah - I am reading their posts and evaluating them as such.

Smith is showing a lot of depth in how he is forming his questions. I would be very surprised if he is scum, especially newb-scum.

I get the potential scum point on Sakura but I personally don't believe that's the case. She has been doing a good job beyond that point also.

And I still want you to answer my other questions.

[knightmare]

Are they boring? Because sometimes I ignore boring ones. Pick the two most important and I'll answer.

What is your read/opinion on Madonna?

[knightmare]

Chilled I need you to explain that better.

Lowell is scum reading Smith for making statements that show uncertainty. Him pulling quotes from his own ISO and explaining them further is constructive behavior imo. I have no idea why you would scum read him for that. I have zero interest in lynching Smith.

[knightmare]

He did the same when I called him scum earlier as well.

@Lowell - I'm starting to think you don't want to answer my question. What is your opinion on Madonna?

[knightmare]

I don't really know the standard here for this board but when I see "normal" I think of a fairly vanilla game. There is probably 3 Mafia, low chance of 3rd party, and likely not many PRs for either team.

So no, I doubt jester is a possibility.

As I said earlier I would entertain wagoning Madonna or Texcat as well.

[knightmare]

Give Lowell a chance to claim at least. I think we can wait some time to let Sayana and some of the other players who can't post as often to weigh in. Garmr/Expedience are back so I would like their thoughts.

I'm still very sketched out by Madonna who is suddenly willing to let Lowell take the drop after defending him as strongly as they did. But not enough that I would reconsider Lowell yet. I can't clear him on his play alone (in fact I think he's pretty scummy for it) but Madonna is the next one in my sights.

[knightmare]

As I said earlier I would entertain wagoning Madonna or Texcat as well.

Neither of them is a good lynch I'm afraid. Madonna is still null to me, and Texcat is jumping between null & slight town atm.

Elsewhere, my read are basically the same, except for smith who has worked his way up to fairly town due to what appears to be genuine scum hunting with some plausible effort and w/o fear.

I think there's a very good chance Madonna is scum, actually. They had no business fighting Lowell's arguments for him like they did because I simply don't believe they could've been town reading him that strongly to do so, if they are town. I also find it sketchy on Lowell's end that he didn't call out this behavior - if he were town.

There's a good bit of scum equity between the two imo.

I agree with you about Smith though. He has come on strong today and he is one of my stronger reads atp

[knightmare]

@Garmr - just general stuff about the game. The stuff that happened today, etc.

[knightmare]

@knight - do you think Madonna is busing then?

Considering their switch from fighting me about how his posts weren't bad to suddenly being willing to hammer - I think it's not a hard conclusion to draw. Lowell gave me a pretty weak read on Madonna as well that I had to really press him for.

So yeah, I think there's a good chance.

[knightmare]

Alright. I like that reasoning. If Lowell flips town, is Madonna still scum for you?

Like I said already, the next one in my sights.

Lowell is scummy on his own and needs to be resolved.

Madonna is scummy for how they handled Lowell, period.

[knightmare]

@Expedience - having 14 days for DL doesn't mean that you need to use all of them. This is the only site I have ever played at where phases are this long. I am used to 72h Days at the longest with some games as short as 48/24 complete phases. 14 days is the ridiculous measure. We have generated a lot of content - what do you need to continue twiddling our thumbs for? The only concrete information we gain is through alignment reveals anyway.

@Boon - I still want to lynch Lowell because I still don't believe he is town and I don't think I can effectively clear him through his play either. I'm not going to spook myself off the wagon because Madonna is being sketchy around it. If anything they are just outing themselves more.

[knightmare]

Madonna wanting to be on the wagon when it becomes apparent the lynch is going thru after fighting it against me should be all the info you need for them.

I'm not arguing for you to not vote them. You're unsure about Lowell? That's fine - but I still want them resolved. Lowell has had ample time to change people's minds since he was wagoned and I don't see it. Madonna won't be going anywhere for D2 so long as the town keeps their focus and doesn't stray for the next shiniest object.

[knightmare]

Lol this is great.

Lowell today, Madonna tomorrow? I don't really care what order they go in.

[knightmare]

If Lowell is town it means ______
If Lowell is scum it means _______

Town means I still think Madonna is scum. Will need to reevaluate some others though and continue pushing the off-wagoners to chip in more. I feel pretty ~comfortable about everyone on the wagon but a town flip makes me second guess A50 and CT a little bit after today.

Scum flip is awesome. Means Madonna is essentially lock-scum for me. It also means the last one is probably somewhere in the quieter posters.

[knightmare]

I could move to Madonna but I don't want to hear some bullshit D2 about WIFOM and how a scum flip on Madonna clears Lowell.

[knightmare]

Who do you think is the better lynch Madonna? Short answer.

You obviously disagree with Lowell - so who should take his place?

[knightmare]

Answer the question lol

Being condescending isn't going to hide the fact you're working so hard to stop Lowell's lynch.

[knightmare]

All I want is a name. You don't even have to give a reason.

Stop beating around the bush. It shouldn't be that hard to recall who you think is suspicious without having to go back and review everyone.