Mini 873 Plainview Game Over
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Holy crap there's a lot of words. I'll have to read through all this again. Good thing we still have two weeks.
Initial impression, we have scum somewhere in: foilist, SpyreX, cruelty, peanutman
Especially worried about SpyreX. I'm not used to seeing almost nothing from him in a game (until that last post I mean). Usually he tries to run the town.
But again, I'll need more than this cursory read because damn people.
P.S. I think we have some alts all up in here.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Sup. Looks like we're reading the game the exact same way.archaebob wrote:Oh, and just so that I didn't lie to you:
foilist13
peanutman
cruelty
Spyrex
I do need to hear from the replacements soon though.
I just finished an iso read of cruelty and I saw a lot of evasion and not much substance. The whole "I'm not posting scumlists they're evil" and "votes are tender kittens and I'll not abuse them kthx" just reeks. Great way to avoid bandwagon/post analysis later. The only real scumhunting he's done is on Foilist13, who just happens to be today's taste du Jour, and the climax of all that tunneling (iso 20) is really weak.
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There's been like a hundred cases posted ITT, I'll have to go back and read those in context. But honestly guys the walls need to stop, they're smothering the game. Every time I try to make some progress there's another damn wall posted and I want to beat my head on the desk.
Also: Thread title says Open, where are the roles?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I've PMed the mod regarding if this is an Open setup or not.
So I went through the cases ITT, and it turns out there's 9 (!!) of them that I found, and I may have missed some in all the walls. If I were to post all that stuff in here, I'd just be contributing to the problem, so I'm just gonna make a summary and I'll post the big thing only at request.
Like I said, 9 cases. BTW, I'm willing to bet that, since this is Day 1 and the town's been so chaotic, that none of these cases are buses:
Case 1: foilist13 vs. Muffin (125)- bad case
Case 2: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game
Case 3: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.
Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. MordyS (also 221)- Horrible. All theory and wrong at that. lulz
Case 5: Muffin vs. cruelty (289)- PbPA, I agree with all points here.
Case 6: cruelty vs. archaebob (290)- Playstyle nonsense.
Sanjay's 327 isn't a case but it was lulz so I thought I'd say so here.
Case 7: SpyreX vs. AlmasterGM (351)- I agree with a couple of points here. Good case.
Case 8: archaebob vs. Peanutman (370)- This case is pretty much predicated on Foilist13 being scum.
Case 9: PhaerieM vs. Muffin (464)- Some good points here.
One thing I'm concerned about is that I'm seeing a lot of people try to form scumteams... it's too early. We need some flips before we can do that.
Anyway, going to make this official now, prolly should have done it earlier.
unvote: Foilist13
vote: cruelty
AlmasterGM is also a good lynch, both from an informational as well as a scumminess standpoint. I won't mind switching there at all.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Interesting. So if that big post was a case, why aren't you voting Foilist13?Sanjay wrote:I've only made like one substantive post all game so far so I would feel awful if it was left out.
Also, while I'm here, who else is scum?
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@MordyS, I found the Peanut one, and I swear I had it marked before and just completely forgot about it, but I can't find the others. Can you give me links or post numbers for those?
@Everyone else, if I missed one of yours let me know so I can recompile the list. Also, holy crap 10+ cases on day 1.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Arrite, so help me understand what the point of the case was then. Typically cases are built to convince the rest of the town that hey ho look I've found scum, so I have to question A. why you didn't even vote for your own case (lol) and B. why you bothered to post it if you're just going to settle on Foilist for strategic value.Sanjay wrote:Two reasons. One because I'm not fully caught up and two because I wasn't interested in pressuring him when I made that case.
Also reiterating:
Papa Zito wrote:Also, while I'm here, who else is scum?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Oho no good sir. We don't lynch an uncountered townie PR. If he's telling the truth the scum will take care of it, or if they don't he lives to see another day. In the meantime we lynch another good candidate(hint: cruelty). If he's lying we can always get him later.SpyreX wrote:You damn straight.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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You're making me defend him. This is my sadface. --->SpyreX wrote:If you can give me ANY good reason for the VT Gambit that isn't some form of survival mechanism mayyybe I can be persuaded to shift to foil. Maaybe.
How about: he's a VT who's trying to protect the doc while simultaneously saving his own skin.
If he's not scum they'll be all OH GOD DOC YES KILL HIM NAO and we'll just be down a VT. A VT who'd normally have no chance of getting NKed I might add, given all the wringing of hands/gnashing of teeth/rending of garments ITT that he's not dead yet.
You throw roleblocker in the mix - why the hell wouldn't they kill the doc, and roleblock someone else? A guaranteed doc death and possible/maybe cop block would be worth far more methinks. I mean, as scum if you don't kill him off you're risking your RB is offed by a vig or something and then you've got a live doc mucking things up still right?
(Mafia 101 conversation is weiiiiiiird)KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Feel free to join the chorus screaming NO COUNTERCLAIM PLZ then. Because that's the road to fail, I agree.MordyS wrote:He clearly claimed doctor because he doesn't want to be lynched. Now either he's actually doctor and wants us to lynch someone else today and he'll be NK'ed, or he's actually scum and is lying about being doctor. There's no third possibility where he's actually VT and is claiming doctor to protect some theoretical doctor from being NK'd... just ridiculous dude. So there are only two possibilities for the softclaim VT. Either he softclaimed to take scum attention off him during the NK because he's actually a doctor, or he softclaimed to lie then and now that he's heading towards lynch, he's going to try to force the Town doctor out with a counterclaim.
Also, Option 3 is what we call a townie gambit, and it's perfectly legit imo tbh.
Anyway, my opinion on AGMGate is pretty obvious, and I won't be voting him today. The rest of you kids can do as you want.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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1. watMordyS wrote:[1]So you're backing off your explanation. [2]Can you give an explanation for him softclaiming VT? [3]Or do you really think he softclaimed it because he wanted to take any PR attention off him. Because 1) I doubt there was any PR attention on him. [4]He was on so many people's scum lists any scum (all this assuming he isn't one himself) would've left him alive to sow confusion in town, 2) he could've easily have given the answer he gave me on this page -- ie, that he's been way more aggressive in other games. instead of lying about his role, and 3)[5] lynch all liars.
2. It may have been a screw-up.
3. No, not at that point, that doesn't make sense.
4. Yeah, just said that. The thing is that he's not in imminent danger of being NKed, he's in imminent danger of being mislynched. (I'm playing AGM-is-VT here) So he avoids what he knows is a certain mislynch and he does a good deed for the town. A+ Boy Scout material.
5. Bah, that's the easy way out.
PREVIEW EDIT:
See #4 above.MordyS wrote:Also, 4) "Also, Option 3 is what we call a townie gambit, and it's perfectly legit imo tbh," why exactly is this a legit townie gambit? Honestly, look at his circumstances. He's probably going to be lynched, and he already softclaimed VT. What exactly does he stand to gain from gambiting a false doctor claim?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I think the reasonable possibilities are vanilla townie, doc or scum (of some sort, doesn't matter).SpyreX wrote:Wait, hold up.
You're saying you think AGM IS a VT?
Based on his play I think he's more likely scum than the other two. However as policy I don't go lynching uncountered power roles unless there's a super duper good reason (obv lying about targets, etc) I'd prefer we wait until later to deal with it and also see how night actions sort things out.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Update to this since I think it'll be important later:
Case 1: MordyS vs. foilist13 (100, 131)- hmmmmmm these are pretty good points, especially this early.
Case 2: foilist13 vs. Muffin (125)- bad case
Case 3: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game
Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.
Case 5: AlmasterGM vs. MordyS (also 221)- Horrible. All theory and wrong at that. lulz
Case 6: MordyS vs. AlmasterGM (238)- Some of these are nulltells I think but I agree that just abandoning the Gammagooey point just because people questioned it is scummy.
Case 7: Muffin vs. cruelty (289)- PbPA, I agree with all points here.
Case 8: cruelty vs. archaebob (290)- Playstyle nonsense.
Sanjay's 327 isn't a case but it was lulz so I thought I'd say so here.
Case 9: SpyreX vs. AlmasterGM (351)- I agree with a couple of points here. Good case.
Case 10: Sanjay vs. Foilist13 (356)- This is actually quite good, but I'm not sure how this proves he's scum... could he be just embarrassed town?
Case 11: archaebob vs. Peanutman (370)- This case is pretty much predicated on Foilist13 being scum.
Case 12: MordyS vs. Peanutman (455)- Not a huge fan of this one; the best points depend on AGM flipping scum.
Case 13: PhaerieM vs. Muffin (464)- Some good points here.
Arrite, so. After all this cruelty is still my fave. AGM is #2 except the damn claim muddles everything. Sanjay has rocketed up the charts to #3 (congrats!).
BTW 13 cases on day 1 is insanity.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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There are a few ways.MordyS wrote:How can you tell whether a doctor is obviously lying about targets?
1. He picks people that don't make sense. (Choosing some random guy vs. another claimed PR, choosing someone the town in general feels is scummy, etc)
2. He picks people he himself previously listed as scummy.
3. He picks someone who died. "How'd he die then?" "Gee I dunno."
I feel like there's a couple more that I can't think of off the top of my head. This sounds like a good wiki article.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Sup kids. I had a great weekend, thanks for asking.
So then, on to cruelty. I can't believe you guys are actually asking for yet another case to be posted, but hey, when in Rome. First I'd invite the crowd to read Muffin's 289, which was quite spot-on.
PbPA gogogo.
0. RVS (null)
1. Foilist
2. Foilist
3. AGM / Foilist
4. Foilist
5. null
6. Foilist / refusal to share
7. refusal to share / AGM
8. AGM / Foilist
9. ARCHAEBOB vote & case???
10. null
11. Archaebob
12. Foilist
13. Foilist
14. null
15. null
16. archaebob
17. Foilist
18. AGM
19. null
20. Foilist
21. Foilist / AGM
22. Foilist
23. Foilist
24. Spyrex (on request)
25. defense
26. defense
27. defense
28. Foilist
29. AGM
30. Foilist
31. Foilist
So what does all this tell us then?
- First, cruelty has refused to provide his thoughts on people unless pressured. The only ones who really have to worry about this are scum. More wiggle-room for later, fewer tracks if you're flipped, amirite?
- Secondly, cruelty has stuck to the main bandwagons all game. He's pretty much tunnelled on Foilist the entire time and, regardless of his alignment, Foilist has been an easy target - precisely the type scum go after. Cruelty has also lobbed a few stones AGM's (aka The Other Big Bandwagon's) way. Anyone else? Nope, not unless you count -
- Iso post 9 - a terrible case on archaebob, and vote, when he hadn't mentioned the guy once before. This case came immediately after Muffin posted his case on cruelty - classic deflection. Even worse, the case was abandoned, archaebob unvoted, and the issue dropped completely when the town didn't follow. Last point on this - Did archaebob have a wagon on him at the time? You bet he did.
One final thing, and this is a recent development so I won't include it up there. He's really really nervous about my vote. My one single vote. He doesn't like it, and he's desperate to hear a case from me. Even though I've had my vote on him a while, his calls for explanation have coincided with other players starting to put pressure on him. Seems like nervous scum to me.
Spyrex stuff coming in a bit.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Spyrex. Buddy. Help me out here.
Ben 490: AGM at L-2, Foil at L-6
Spy 517: Kill AGM nao
Spy 531: He's a doc, kill him anyway!
Pea 565: unvote, AGM at L-3, Foil at L-6
arc 575: vote, AGM at L-3, Foil at L-5
San 576: vote, AGM at L-2
Spy 583: unvote, AGM at L-3, Foil at L-4 ****????****
Spy, you want someone dead, you've been desperate to lynch AGM - Why the hell would you abandon the AGM wagon here?? At that point the AGM wagon was still more viable than the Foilist one, by three votes. I don't get it.
Also:
SpyreX wrote:Ok, if there is an actual doctor, please claim. 1-1 is fine.
lolwutSpyrex wrote:Idon't want to out our doctor.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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So I feel better about SpyreX now. I asked Benmage for that clarification, and this is one of the reasons why. Good deal.SpyreX wrote:ORLY amendment change huh.
Unvote, Vote: GM
If I'm forced between AGM And Foilist I'm going Foilist, but damn what a crappy choice to make. If we had more than a couple days I'd push for a Sociopath wagon because there's no way in hell he's just having that hard a time just catching up.
Actually, you know what, let's do this. Cruelty can wait. Hop aboard.
unvote: cruelty
vote: SocioPathKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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I've already given opinions on Almaster and Foil. They haven't changed. Read the game plz.Gammagooey wrote:Oh look, another useless vote with barely any actual opinions of Almaster and foil. As much as Socio needs to post, two days before deadline after 30 pages of discussion is not the time to pressure vote.
And you're defending the lurker? Interesting.
2 days is plenty of time if we build some steam. gogogoKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I think he's been suffocated. I agree the vote nonsense is somewhat bad, but I don't think that's slam-dunk-the-guy-is-scum-lynch-nao kind of deal. Despite all the rhetoric in this thread I haven't seen a good case on the guy, and I've seen him trying to contribute despite being constantly attacked. So no, I don't want to vote for him.Gammagooey wrote:Personally, I'd like to see your own thoughts instead of just your comments on the cases of others.
I'd much rather lynch cruelty or Sociopath for his blatant lurking; wouldn't mind Sanjay either (get to him later). I've already stated why I don't want AGM lynched. Cruelty obviously isn't happening. Let's lynch the serial lurker instead.
Why not drop a vote and find out then.Gammagooey wrote:Given that we still can't come to an easy consensus after THREE WEEKS, what makes you think it can happen in about a day.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Did you miss the whole back-and-forth between me and SpyreX?Sanjay wrote:
When did this part happen?Papa Zito wrote:I'd much rather lynch cruelty or Sociopath for his blatant lurking; wouldn't mind Sanjay either (get to him later).I've already stated why I don't want AGM lynched. Cruelty obviously isn't happening. Let's lynch the serial lurker instead.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Yes, it's because of the doc claim. That was the entire crux of the argument; I'm not sure how you missed it. I'm not willing to lynch a claimed Doc on day 1. Just to make sure there's no misconceptions - Without a Doc claim, I'd happily be aboard the AGM wagon.Sanjay wrote:Is it because of the doc claim?
I had no issues with Muffin really, he gave me a townie vibe. But SocioPath's lurking at such a critical juncture feels deliberate. Since you're here and posting, I'd rather go after the lurker. I already said we'd get to you later.Sanjay wrote:Besides, I thought I was your number 3? If you gave up on cruelty and you don't like AlmasterGM, what happened to me?
Sanjay and Peanut, if you really want to make this happen then you kids need to vote SocioPath. I'll reiterate - if it comes down to deadline, AGM has the lead and Foilist is the only other viable candidate, I will switch.
@Gamma - You're starting to see support already. Hop aboard choo choo.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Now we're cookin.
Unofficial:
AlmasterGM (1)foilist13,
foilist13 (5) cruelty, archaebob, AlmasterGM, peanutman, Gammagooey
SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS
Not Voting (1) SocioPath
Can't do a wagon in one day my ass.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Unofficial:
AlmasterGM (1) foilist13
foilist13 (4) cruelty, archaebob, AlmasterGM, Gammagooey
SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS
Not Voting (1) SocioPath, peanutman
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It does seem kinda fast but I think this is a better option than the other two so. And we can certainly revisit AGM tomorrow.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Lawl SpyreX.
I'd like to give it another day if we could. Let anyone who hasn't popped in and given a reaction have a chance to give one.
Gamma, you willing to hammer?
I have a feeling these three bandwagons are going to give us oodles (oodles!) of info down the line.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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SpyreX, wryyyyyyyyyy???
Arrite. Our flip wasn't just scum, but scum Godfather. This is a huge deal. Here's where we sat when we made our switch:
I'm willing to eat one of SpyreX's hats if foilist13 isn't town based off of this. There's no reason scum would shift a wagon from Scum Role X onto a Godfather.Benmage wrote:Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (3) MordyS, foilist13, SpyreX
foilist13 (6) cruelty, archaebob, Sanjay, AlmasterGM, peanutman, Gammagooey
SocioPath (1) Papa Zito
Note Voting (2) SocioPath, PhaerieM
Deadline November 20 4pm EST
Now, again, we need to look at those who attempted to deflect/stall the Godfather bandwagon. And we have:
archaebob 791 wrote:This makes very little sense. Can people please explain why foilist/AGM is suddenly not a good lynch anymore? I'm very suspicious of all these sudden wagon hops.Gammagooey 811 wrote:I'm going to make the naive assumption that he's reading through and making an amazingly revealing mind-bogglingly good post RIGHT NOW. Should I be proven wrong yet again, I'll hammer tommorrow afternoon.cruelty 814 wrote:As for my opinion on the matter.. I just hope you're right. I don't have a huge problem with this lynch - I think there are scummier players in the game but I have no issue with the logic of the lynch; there is a legit, unanswered case on muffin out there and the massive inactivity of Sociopath is definitely questionable at best.
... which ties nicely to ...peanutman 817 wrote:I would definitely hammer at this point but will wait for Socio to respond first. My read-through of Muffin didn't change my mind.
cruelty and archaebob remained on foilist13, and we had peanutman and Gammagooey off either wagon. I'd say we have at least one scum among these four.Benmage wrote:FinalVote Count:
foilist13 (2) cruelty, archaebob
SocioPath (7) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS, foilist13, AlmasterGM
Not Voting (3) SocioPath, peanutman, Gammagooey
Special mention:
Worst hammer ever. SocioPath wasn't going to get away so this is a possible mercy killing. Also AGM is still alive, lol.AlmasterGM wrote:Unvote. Vote: SocioPath.
With all this said, plus stuff that happened yesterday, here's where I sit.
cruelty
AGM
archaebob
Gammagooey
peanutmanKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Yeah, PhaerieM's defense makes a lot of sense, which is why Peanut is at the bottom of my list. Gammagooey had basically the same reaction, so he's down there as well. Incidentally this is another problem with ABM's hammer - We were hoping to seesomethingout of SocioPath before deadline, and he prevented this from happening, completely without warning.
Archaebob and cruelty, however, both clung stubbornly to the Foilist wagon.
Actually, let me get the ball rolling here.
vote: crueltyKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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The way I saw it, he unvoted rather like peanut did, then pressured me to figure out what I was doing. I don't really see any issues with him scumhunting in that situation and tryiing to test motivations.PhaerieM wrote:[Actually, didn't Gamma have the *opposite* reaction? He came on & for several posts argued with you back and forth that this was a stupid idea, and there's no way there'll be enough people who switch in time to lynch Socio. How did he push forward the lynch?
I have a theory but I don't know if it's wise to share at this point.PhaerieM wrote:Also, does anyone have any insight into possible reasons why spyrex was killed?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Drunk mod is lulz.
Cruelty, your 871 isn't very impressive. We've now had two flips, two or three major wagons, 20 cases, and a partridge in a pear tree. I'd like for you to analyze all these things (especially the partridge) and give us your opinion on what these events mean. The time to play cards close to the chest is over and that ^^^ seems to be in that vein.
Same to you, archaebob. Aside from the cards bit.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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:/cruelty wrote:Zito prepare to be unimpressed.
Why did he help steer a wagon to his Godfather then?cruelty wrote:I still think foilist is slightly scummy, but I'm not as convinced as I was yesterday.
Also, if you had to vote right now or explode, who would you vote for?
It'd involve PR speculation. Remind me in a day or two if we're still around.PhaerieM wrote:I'm also curious about your theories a couple of you mentioned on Spyrex's kill (although I think fear of doc protection on me or Zito & the fact that spyrex has a good townie reputation are pretty good ideas to me), but I understand if you'd rather not say.
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Archaebob does seem to be lurking. Not wise, given what happened yesterday.
BTW, if we lynch archaebob and he flips scum:
These two look much better.Papa Zito wrote:Case 3: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game
Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.
Told you that thing would come in handy.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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I just went back and looked. This is true actually. He was vote #6.cruelty wrote:He didn't vote until 5 other people did, either, so I think your question is misleading. He was fairly obviously just riding the wagon.
I can see two reasons for that.
1: foilist-town sees safety, both in numbers and from his own impending lynch, so jumps on the wagon.
2: foilist-scum sees which way the wind is blowing and slips quietly on the back of the wagon.
If we go with the theory that there was a late busser, then it would be one of Foilist or AGM. I say that in particular because of this:
SpyreX 797 wrote:Actually, I'll take it a bit further. If he is scum:
SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS
I'd put HEAVY money on that whole list being town.
How you like them apples.
SpyreX declares the wagon town, and Foilist joins it in literally the very next post.Foilist 798 wrote:Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.
unvote, vote:Sociopath
hmmmKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Suggest you go back and read then, since several people have posted why they want cruelty dead.archaebob wrote:
All of you, 'splain please. I'm not seeing the case here.Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
Sanjay, why aren't you voting?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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*flex*cruelty wrote:(big Papa Zito)
I'm less sure, given our earlier conversation on the matter. (If you are scum like I think then well done hurting his credibility)cruelty wrote:
Still think this?Zito wrote:I'm willing to eat one of SpyreX's hats if foilist13 isn't town based off of this. There's no reason scum would shift a wagon from Scum Role X onto a Godfather.
What does reasonable mean?cruelty wrote:I also think that he's slowly recapturing the limelight so I guess we'll see what happens there. For now though, I don't think he's a reasonable lynch.
Also who is your prime suspect now then?
@Sanjay - You missed my question. Why aren't you voting?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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So I'm not quite sure how to take this. Lazy town? Or scum trying to undercut townie cred? But why be so blatantly wrong?archaebob wrote:I assume you have interest in giving us a better reason than that. Especially in light of...recent events.
Anyway, here's everything rite here so it can't be missed again:
Papa Zito iso 16 wrote:So then, on to cruelty. I can't believe you guys are actually asking for yet another case to be posted, but hey, when in Rome. First I'd invite the crowd to read Muffin's 289, which was quite spot-on.
PbPA gogogo.
0. RVS (null)
1. Foilist
2. Foilist
3. AGM / Foilist
4. Foilist
5. null
6. Foilist / refusal to share
7. refusal to share / AGM
8. AGM / Foilist
9. ARCHAEBOB vote & case???
10. null
11. Archaebob
12. Foilist
13. Foilist
14. null
15. null
16. archaebob
17. Foilist
18. AGM
19. null
20. Foilist
21. Foilist / AGM
22. Foilist
23. Foilist
24. Spyrex (on request)
25. defense
26. defense
27. defense
28. Foilist
29. AGM
30. Foilist
31. Foilist
So what does all this tell us then?
- First, cruelty has refused to provide his thoughts on people unless pressured. The only ones who really have to worry about this are scum. More wiggle-room for later, fewer tracks if you're flipped, amirite?
- Secondly, cruelty has stuck to the main bandwagons all game. He's pretty much tunnelled on Foilist the entire time and, regardless of his alignment, Foilist has been an easy target - precisely the type scum go after. Cruelty has also lobbed a few stones AGM's (aka The Other Big Bandwagon's) way. Anyone else? Nope, not unless you count -
- Iso post 9 - a terrible case on archaebob, and vote, when he hadn't mentioned the guy once before. This case came immediately after Muffin posted his case on cruelty - classic deflection. Even worse, the case was abandoned, archaebob unvoted, and the issue dropped completely when the town didn't follow. Last point on this - Did archaebob have a wagon on him at the time? You bet he did.
One final thing, and this is a recent development so I won't include it up there. He's really really nervous about my vote. My one single vote. He doesn't like it, and he's desperate to hear a case from me. Even though I've had my vote on him a while, his calls for explanation have coincided with other players starting to put pressure on him. Seems like nervous scum to me.Papa Zito Iso 30 wrote:
cruelty and archaebob remained on foilist13, and we had peanutman and Gammagooey off either wagon. I'd say we have at least one scum among these four.Benmage wrote: FinalVote Count:
foilist13 (2) cruelty, archaebob
SocioPath (7) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS, foilist13, AlmasterGM
Not Voting (3) SocioPath, peanutman, GammagooeyKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Basically. Making the synopsis means you're leaving meat out but yeah.archaebob wrote:These are the reasons that I can see for your cruelty suspicions:
- you agree with Muffin's case on cruelty
- Cruelty's general unwillingness to divulge information
- Cruelty's voting position on primarily the main bandwagons all game
- his bandwagon vote onto me
- Cruelty wasn't on the socio-path wagon.
Is that everything?
I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it because generally the point of the game is to lynch the scummy people. Also it doesn't help that you aren't advocating a lynch at all despite the wealth of information in this thread.cruelty wrote:I don't want you lynched. I think you're scummy.
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For some reason it feels like only the same people are talking. Do we have lurkers? I'll have to check.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Credibility is a fickle thing. Let's go with the scenario that you're town. If you were to present a WOW case about someone right now and demand their lynch then the worst thing you'd do is leave great information for the town the next day. Helping your faction is never a bad thing, even when your faction wants you dead.cruelty wrote:This is true. Therefore I don't need to really go after him too much, his attacks on me have already sealed his fate (after his day 1 antics). Also, do you honestly think I currently have the town cred to be able to push the lynch of a claimed doc?
Maybe this is a semantics problem. You say you don'twanthim dead but it sounds like you mean aren'tableto make him dead. Putting the credibility issues aside, do youwanthim lynched?
I'd rather you not worry about how much you can accomplish and simply drive at your suspects, honestly.cruelty wrote:I think my time is better spent not worrying about AGM and seeing what else I can uncover.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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It's not the same at all, unless I'm reading it wrong. The doc claim isn't figuring into his thinking, it's the fact that he's unable to form a wagon and get the town to follow. My reasoning was and is entirely based on the doc claim.archaebob wrote:I really don't see the confusion about Cruelty's position on Almaster. It's the same as mine, and it's also the same as yours was at the end of the day yesterday, Papa. I think he explained it pretty fully yesterday: he thinks that AGM is scummy, but because of mitigating factors related to strategy and information flow, he has decided that actually lynching AGM is not the most beneficial move for the town to take.
I'm trying to ferret out his motivations, and it's a damn hard job. Your white knight act isn't helping.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Unofficial vote count:
Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
archaebob (2) peanutman, PharieM
peanutman (3) cruelty, MordyS, archaebob
Not Voting (1) Sanjay
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@Sanjay, I'd like to see you commit to someone.
@Peanut, you stole my thunder. I was going to bring that up later. :/
@Bob, Why did you ask me for my cruelty case and then ignore it?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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That's not what I'm asking. You requested the information, I gave it, you summarized it, and then nothing happened. No opinion one way or another. I guess you don't realize how odd this is after you've been defending cruelty all day?archaebob wrote:I just missed it the first time, when I was reading in iso. It came after your big list of what cases had been posted in the game, so for some reason or another, it didn't catch my eye. When you quoted it for me, I realized that I was wrong, went back and read it, and then used the information from it to compile all the points to your position that I could see. You said that my Post 1004 did a decent job of summarizing your views, so i stopped talking about it. i wasn't intentionally trying to misrepresent you, I just didn't see that part of your post at first. The whole reason for my post 1004 was to make sure that Iwasn'tstrawmanning you.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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I did miss it somehow. Sorry. Carry on.Sanjay wrote:You missed this post. Apparently so did peanutman.
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Unofficial vote count:
cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
archaebob (2) peanutman, PharieM
peanutman (4) cruelty, MordyS, archaebob, Sanjay
Not Voting (0)
10 means 6 to lynch, so cruelty and peanutman are at L-2.
I just realized that we still have an even number of players. That could be a problem later.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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I was expecting you to attack the case since you've attacked anything against cruelty today. So I'm surprised that you were silent. If you're still evaluating then that's fine.archaebob wrote:
I don't see what's odd, unless you were expecting something further from me. You're the one who's on the cruelty wagon, and I'm trying to understand your position. I'm looking at each one of your points and thinking seriously about how valid it is, and in the meantime, you've told me to stop actively defending cruelty. What do you want from me? Do you want me to go into depth about why I don't think cruelty is scum or not?PZ wrote:I guess you don't realize how odd this is after you've been defending cruelty all day?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Happy birthday Gamma!
We seem to have stalled.
Deadline is in 7 days. We need to start reaching a consensus.
And I'm so not feeling a Peanut lynch.
But it seems cruelty's not happening.
?
LULZcruelty wrote:I think of it like having an ugly girl as backup in case you can't score the hot oneKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Argh. What the hell is with this game.
1st, cop. If we have a counter, now's the time to do it.
2nd, investigation. I'd suggest Foilist, hard.
3rd, WTF is with the explosion of attacks on people? We have likely townies given the Godfather wagon but people are tearing down prob town instead of lynching scummy players?
I'm sure I missed a ton of stuff in this mess but goddamn.
I don't get the MordyS votes at all. Archaebob's worse and I'll vote him if I have to but this is starting to look like yesterday a bit and I suspect scum have a hand in it. Assuming our cop is real then we know at least one of yesterday's wagons was on town which half-validates the false dichotomy feel I had to the proceedings. This sudden weird shift is feeling similar.
I really don't want to wade through a bunch of arguments... can one of the MordyS voters present a case?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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You've invoked my name a couple of times now, so I feel the need to respond.
You're twisting this out of proportion. Let's review.archaebob wrote:1) Cruelty is suspicious because Papa Zito found him suspicious, and MordyS trusts Papa Zito's opinion as a result of him having lead the wagon on Muffin.
This is completely and utterly bogus, especially since Papa Zito has said himself several times that he didn't actually have a strong scum read on Muffin. That Papa Zito happened to hit scum is no indication whatsoever of how good his read is on the game, since he never claimed to have thought Muffin was scum, meaning that Muffin's flip doesn't make PZ "right". And even if it did, this is an extremely lazy reason to find someone suspicious.
I didn't have a strong scum read on anybody, and why should I... it was Day 1 of a game I'd replaced into. I did, however, have a pair of competing wagons, one on a claimed (unchallenged) Doc and one on a player whose case I didn't really believe in.
Like I said earlier, I felt like I was facing a false dichotomy scenario... that the scum had quietly led the town around into a pair of wrong choices. That led me to casting my gaze elsewhere.
If you go back you'll notice I started popping questions at SpyreX. He wasn't receiving any attention at all and was quite capable of engineering what I described. But then I noticed that we had a player lurking, near deadline, with the false dichotomy looming.
This raised a huge red flag.
I'll admit that I didn't have much of an issue with Muffin. This was entirely about SocioPath and his lack of presence in thread. It grew more egregious as he posted in other games and avoided this one. Why replace into a game and refuse to participate? It was simply too off.
I'm a mostly gut player. I tend to do my best work early on in games before I start trying to puzzle things out logically. But that doesn't mean I don't have a basis for my actions. The above was my basis for this one.
Now, to the above. You keep saying Muffin, and I've said earlier that my issue was with SocioPath, not Muffin, so to keep repeating Muffin strikes me as disingenuous at best and scummy at worst. I also don't like how you're attempting to downgrade my scumhunting abilities here. Obviously I'm not a cop with guilties and innocents but that doesn't make my scumhunting crap either. Finally, to your last point... If nobody listened to or agreed with each other, despite not knowing alignments, then bandwagons would never form and we'd never lynch scum. So it's not "lazy" it's a freaking natural occurrence of the game.
/rantKappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Papa Zito Jack of All Trades
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Jesus Christ. Page 52 on Day 2 of a mini? Seriously?
MordyS has basically stolen my thunder re: approach to the game. I find it extremely unlikely that one of them was on the SocioPath wagon early which is why I'm baffled as to why people are pushing on players on that part of the wagon when there are better candidates around.
I absolutely will not vote prob townies, and MordyS is one of those. And not just for his place on the wagon either.
I gave it at the beginning of the day and my approach hasn't changed. I feel like an attempt has been made to muddy the waters (damage control) and I don't like it.cruelty wrote:@PZ, you didn't actually give us any idea of where you're leaning right now. Who do you find suspicious - still me? bob? Mordy? foilist?
AGM and peanutman go off the list.Papa Zito wrote:cruelty
AGM
archaebob
Gammagooey
peanutman
cruelty
archaebob
Gammagooey
At least one if not both our scum are on this list.
And I'm sorry I'm not posting a ton but I'm sick, and this game is really hard to keep up with.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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He's borderline. He hopped aboard the wagon right after SpyreX posted his prob townie list (which is "whoooosh" as a famous philosopher once said) but he's not as bad as those who avoided the wagon or attempted to derail it.Sanjay wrote:Yo, Big Papa:
Why aint foilist13 on the list?
I admit that I'm mostly lynching him because I don't want him around at lylo, but foilist13 was off the list of probable scum and I really can't remember why that was the case.
It's why I suggested he be the cop investigation. If it turns out Foilist is town also then we had competing townie bandwagons, which makes the SocioPath wagon even more interesting.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Lawl Sanjay.
Why are you insinuating that I'm not answering things honestly?archaebob wrote:@ Papa Zito -
Please answer this honestly...have you read my posts about MordyS, seriously, and thoroughly? I don't blame you if you haven't, as I understand how annoying a flood of words can be to sift through, but your current opinion sounds a little uninformed. If you still entirely reject the case on Mordy, I'd like to know why you aren't bothered by the multitude of points I have brought up against him.
I am absolutely in tune with MordyS' view of the game (or vice versa, whatever) and I absolutely see where he's coming from. I also see his frustration and it feels genuine to me. I don't buy your points on him. I feel he's defended his position.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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No. HisGammagooey wrote:Papa, do you think that if foil was investigated and turned up inno his arguments as a confirmed townie would be useful?statuswould be really helpful though. Reducing the possible scum pool yet further... it'll be too shallow for them to hide.
Why are you directing this at us in particular?KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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Er. You're making a huge assumption about game state here. Why is Lylo even entering the equation at this point?Gammagooey wrote:Because you and archae seem to be ignoring foilist's comments at the moment, and I don't think that if he is town, he would be a useful and intelligent member in LYLO. Quite honestly, I think he's a liability to the town regardless of his alignment.
And I can't see why a confirmed town Foilist is a liability. If you don't like his arguments you could just ignore them but you'd at least you could take them at face value.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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watGammagooey wrote:Because I'm trying to take into account the worst-cast scenario here. Best case, archae is scum, gets lynched, and we find the last scum member tommorrow for an awesome win. But assuming the best-case scenario is the one that's going to happen is dumb, and I think that just about anyone else would be much more useful to have their opinions as confirmed if they are investigated and turn up town.
No, assuming any case doesn't make sense. We need to react to today's game state, not a possible future one. And honestly this is all just really insulting to Foilist. It seems like you're just attempting to discredit him in case he's picked.KappaJust MonikaAge is a very high price to pay for maturity.-
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