Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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sorry, i thought we were in the random/joke vote phase.Megatheory wrote:Self voting is ridiculously stupid. It accomplishes nothing positive for the town and provides no information that we can use to determine your alignment. Knock it off. Seriously. Don't try to defend this boneheaded action or you will just be risking getting yourself lynched for no benefit whatsoever.
unvote
funny. it is "ridiculously stupid" and has "no benefit", yet you use my self vote to show your towniness.
just to be clear: have we moved past the random/joke vote phase?town 39-32
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my vote broke the ice. by virtue of us still talking about it, it has obviously generated some type of discussion. discussion is pro town. also, the idea of the random vote is multi faceted. by randomly choosing someone we can hope to land on scum. if we land on scum then perhaps a "scumtell" comes through in their reaction. so why wouldn't a "scumtell" come through in someone elses reaction to a self vote? i.e. you say my lynch has no benefit. does that mean that you know i'm town?Megatheory wrote: You're acting like the random phase has no actual purpose. Besides breaking the ice, sometimes scumtells can come through during that time.
i believe you mean "anti-town." self voting can actually be a "good" scum manuver later in the game if properly executed. again, the fact that we are having a discussion contradicts your assertion that self voting is ridiculous. come to think of it, it also contradicts the fact you are trying to make with the above statement.megatheory wrote:Beyond that, self voting is badall the time.
generate discussion.megatheory wrote: What was your intent other than to say "haw haw, I self voted! Isn't that goofy?"
uh, thanks?megatheory wrote:This is a team game, remember? If the town doesn't work together, there is no chance for success. Advising you the way I did is intended to move you towards better play.
your intent is irrelevant. youmegatheory wrote: I don't know if you are town or not, but statistically you are probably town unless I have a reason to believe otherwise. My intent was not to appear now townie, that was just a side effect.usedmy self vote. you responded. now we are talking. do you still believe a self vote in the random phase to be "ridiculous and stupid"?town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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discussion always helps town. that is my stand.Megatheory wrote:
Discussion does not always benefit the town. If two townies get into an argument and one of them gets lynched over it, their discussion was ultimately bad for the town. Our goal here is to find scum, so our discussion needs to be aimed at that end. Discussions about self votes rarely help find scum.don_johnson wrote: my vote broke the ice. by virtue of us still talking about it, it has obviously generated some type of discussion. discussion is pro town.
multifaceted was meant to imply that there are more than just two ideas and motivations behind the random voting phase. you make no sense here. first, are you implying that you can determine someones alignment based on who they randomly vote for? the self vote promotes discussion. through that discussion scum can be exposed.megatheory wrote:
Two aspects of this are completely wrong. First, you're ignoring the fact that we can gain information about a random voter's alignment. If said voter votes for himself, there is no alignment related information to gain. Second, scumtells usually come out during random votesdon_johnson wrote:also, the idea of the random vote is multi faceted. by randomly choosing someone we can hope to land on scum. if we land on scum then perhaps a "scumtell" comes through in their reaction. so why wouldn't a "scumtell" come through in someone elses reaction to a self vote? i.e. you say my lynch has no benefit. does that mean that you know i'm town?when a scum reacts to someone voting for them. The idea is that the scum is more concerned about being lynched than a town player, so they will be more sensitive about a vote for them and react too strongly.
also, as i said: someones reaction to a self vote can also contain a scumtell. the point you italicize is part of the point i made. we agree on that. no aspect of what i said is wrong. you have misunderstood.
this:
equals this:Second, scumtells usually come out during random votes when a scum reacts to someone voting for them.
see? so we agree.by randomly choosing someone we can hope to land on scum. if we land on scum then perhaps a "scumtell" comes through in their reaction.
who said "self voting is good for the town because it's good for the scum in certain situations"? if one is scum, then self voting can be a "good" manuver late in the game. i.e. to cut off discussion and drop the hammer on oneself. no one implied or said anything about this being good for town. you said "self voting is always bad." what you should have said is "self voting is anti-town." either way, you are wrong. self voting is notmegatheory wrote:
Wow, this makes no sense whatsoever. Self voting is good for the town because it's good for the scum in certain situations? So why on God's Green Earth would it be good for adon_johnson wrote: i believe you mean "anti-town." self voting can actually be a "good" scum manuver later in the game if properly executed. again, the fact that we are having a discussion contradicts your assertion that self voting is ridiculous. come to think of it, it also contradicts the fact you are trying to make with the above statement.townieto self vote? If I didn't know better, I'd see this as you admitting that you are scum!alwaysanything.
you seem to be overly concerned with lynching. its quite early in the day. also, for someone so concerned with this argument leading to a mislynch, you seem to be pushing it towards that end quite forcefully. are you going to vote me now?megatheory wrote:
Yes. You haven't demonstrated that self voting is good for the town in any way, except "it generates discussion." Is it still good for the town if we are both townies and this argument leads to one of us being lynched because you didn't realize what you were doing?don_johnson wrote:do you still believe a self vote in the random phase to be "ridiculous and stupid"?town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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QFT.Nameless wrote:
If two townies get into an argument that still helps an attentive town as much for other people's reactions as the two arguing. If one of those arguing is lynched, then it's the voting that's causing a problem, not the discussion itself. More discussion means more analysis, if a townie can't cope with the quantity that's a personal time issue that could be overcome by eg. just analysing key exchanges. Given it's the primary source and basically the point of the game for the town, discussion = good. Portraying discussion as sometimes bad (or trying to keep discussion low) seems slightly dubious.
hindsight is always 20/20. once you find one scum it is definitely worth going back and analyzing their vote pattern. however, there is usually going to be no way to pick out a scum pair usingmegatheory wrote:Combined with other factors, random votes can help determine someone's alignment. For example, scum might vote for one of their parteners as a low risk way to distance themselves. If you think two players are scumparteners, such a vote may be evidence that such a relationship exists.
Can you provide any examples of how self voting promotes discussion that helps the town?onlythe random voting phase. so yes, combined with other factors, random votes can help determine someones alignment. just like my self vote. to answer the question: see above. and of course, hypothetically, if this discussion were to tailspin into your lynch and you flipped scum then my self vote would have been extremely good for town.
see above. without seeing how this game plays out you cannot say whether my self vote was good or bad. i believe discussion to be good for town and i believe my self vote generated at least some.megatheory wrote:If you are town, why would you want to do something that is demonstrably only good for scum? That makes no sense.
you are free to drop it anytime you wish.megatheory wrote:I'm not pushing towards your lynch. I'm not voting for you. I don't find you suspicious. You are using some weird logic and I am interested in seeing where this goes, but if you are willing, I'd be fine with droping this altogether.
not voting is not necessarily scummy. not giving reasons for a vote or answering questions about a vote is.
chaosomega: do you have anything to say relevant to your current vote?town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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i am not implying that you are scum. i find you slightly suspicious because you have said that my self vote was ridiculous and implied that the discussion generated by said vote would be useless to town, yet you continue the discussion. also, now you are voting Juls to "see where it goes". which is more anti town: self voting in the RVS or abstaining from voting during said time with a reasonable excuse?Megatheory wrote:
Why are you implying that I'm scum? Do you find me suspicious? If so, why?don_johnson wrote: hindsight is always 20/20. once you find one scum it is definitely worth going back and analyzing their vote pattern. however, there is usually going to be no way to pick out a scum pair usingonlythe random voting phase. so yes, combined with other factors, random votes can help determine someones alignment. just like my self vote. to answer the question: see above. and of course, hypothetically, if this discussion were to tailspin into your lynch and you flipped scum then my self vote would have been extremely good for town.
how is my logic "wierd"? you initially said:megatheory wrote:
I'd love to, really, I would. But you are using such weird logic in this discussion. You are unwilling to recognize any risk to yourself, and you keep turning it back on me, like I will be lynched regardless of the fact that I'm not pushing you, nor did I find you suspicous before. You're certainly getting there, though.don_johnson wrote: you are free to drop it anytime you wish.
now, from the ensuing discussion you are threatening me with:Self voting is ridiculously stupid. It accomplishes nothing positive for the town and provides no information that we can use to determine your alignment.
how could i be "getting there" if the discussion is useless and the self vote provides no information that you can use to determine my alignment? simple answer: i couldn't. the self vote generated discussion. the disccussion may or may not have been helpful to town. just like any other discussion that stems from a random vote. even if i were to be lynched because "i didn't realize" what i was doing, town would have both discussion and a full bandwagon to analyze in order to track down scum. that means this:I'm not pushing you, nor did I find you suspicous before. You're certainly getting there, though.
is not necessarily true. this happens all the time.megatheory wrote:If two townies get into an argument and one of them gets lynched over it, their discussion was ultimately bad for the town.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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mega never actually said the word "useless", but i felt he was implying that my self vote was exactly that. i was just pointing out that it wasn't as he was obviouslyPlum wrote:
Quote from Don_J:
Wait, what does this have to do with anything? Everyone's trying to prove their alleged townieness; the point was that selfvoting generally tells little about the voter. Yes?don_johnson wrote:funny. it is "ridiculously stupid" and has "no benefit", yet you use my self vote to show your towniness.usingit to show his towniness.
i liked your post, though i would definitely request less "stream of consciousness" posting. i do it as well sometimes, but i find it easier to communicate when things are structured well.
vote: megatheorythe more i think about it the more i realize that on page 1 he used my self vote to not only paint me in an anti town light, but to show off his towniness. he pseudo threatened me with a lynch by implying that i didn't understand what i was doing, pushed the discussion on(perhaps due to ego), and then backed off after threatening to find me suspicious. not finding me suspicious, but threatening to.
if i were to assign each player a number and then roll a die to cast my vote "randomly", i would have just as much chance of landing on myself as any of you. to insinuate that a self vote in the rvs is any more or less informational or beneficial to town than any other random vote in the same stage of the gamebeforeensuing discussion reveals any relevant information regarding players alignments is bad logic.
juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town shoulddefinitelylynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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ip: what a wonderful, long, and insightful post. you must be town.
insanepenguin02 wrote:don_johnson: 3
1) First off, the self-vote which has been a good spark of discussion and has brought up the point about self-pointing (if it has one). It sure was ballsy to start off that way. I have to say that at first, I saw it as just something stupid and meaningless to get the game started for you, especially since you did unvote shortly after. But as time goes on, that feeling has changed....
2)THIS IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT!!!! WHY?!?!?!
3) If I had to take a stance on you right now, I would say that you and mega agreed at the start of this game to throw a pointless conversation out there right off the bat so that you two scum buddies could really spin the heads of the townies. If this is true, it will be very interesting to see how it progresses. If this is false, you have mega to blame (and yourself a little) for really putting a bull's eye on you, in my eyes.
4) Please post something about another aspect of this game soon or I we will have no other info to work off of to get a fair picture of who you are. If you are town, I would get out of the arguement ASAP. Especially since the door was opened for you to finish but you didn't.FOS: don_johnson- post something more!
to answer your question(which i bolded): perhaps its because that is the only thing people are talking to me about. i am aware of other goings on in the thread and will comment on them when i see fit. funny how this is the only direct question you ask me. post something more?
okay, here's something more:
you are willingly hopping onto a bandwagon with two players you find scummier than the person you are trying to lynch. you rate both chaosomega and me as scummier than megatheory(co:3,dj:3, mt:3.5). yet you vote for megatheory. please explain your rationale behind this vote.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing. if mega were lynched and flipped scum this would cast enough doubt as to my alignment that i feel it could be devastatingly bad for town in a lylo situation. the other scum would have a premade case to get me lynched thereby costing town the game. this would work vice versa. i never said that one of us is definitely scum, and i never stated that lynching one of us would offer any clues as to the others alignment. i just don't want to hand scum an easy argument at lylo.Juls wrote:
This statement seems strange to me. This is very anti-town. I can only see a scum saying this. If we lynch Mega first and he flips town then you have covered youself because you know he is town therefore your request to be lynched would not apply. If we lynch you first and you do flip scum you are trying to get mega to be lynched next and taking one for the team. I am less convinced you and mega are scumbuddies and more convinced that you are scum. Let's pretend now that you are town. Why would you want to get yourself lynched if mega flips scum? I don't like this at all.don_johnson 80 wrote: juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.
not in the least. are you saying that you want to lynch megatheory for "information" instead of lynching one of your top two scum suspects? how would lynching megatheory clue you in to anyone elses alignment, especially considering he has been tied up with me for most of the thread? where is this "sound reasoning" you speak of?ip wrote:To be honest, the third vote made on mega was made as I was making my near hour and a half post (watching fball too) so I thought that I was going to be vote 3. However, I am very comfortable with my vote on mega as his reaction and possible lynching will tell me much more about my other feelings and analyses that I didn't post of as well as the more general analysis that I posted.
I guess that that doesn't really affect me much (joining a forming wagon) as long as I am comfortable in my reasoning with my vote. I will VERY rarely vote unless I have very sound reasoning to vote.
I hope that answers your questions.
i NEVER said that one of usnameless wrote:dj wrote:i liked your post, though i would definitely request less "stream of consciousness" posting. i do it as well sometimes, but i find it easier to communicate when things are structured well.
This makes me laugh because you have trouble finding your Shift key. But seriously, you're exaggerating Mega's scumminess in your game theory exchange and saying one of you must be scum is very wrong. (Protip: Townies disagree often, and you are getting tunnel vision. There will be more than one scum, why not take a break from Mega and try to give opinions on who the others might be? You're allowed to have some initiative rather than wait for questions, you know. -_-)mustbe scum. thanks for noticing, but believe me, i am aware of the perils of tunnel vision.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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still waiting on insanepenguin to answer why he wrote this:
but did this:ip wrote:I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.
ip wrote:All in all, I want to say: Vote: megatheory.unvote, vote:insanepenguin02
i understand rl delays, but your initial answer did not suffice and i don't feel that this should just be swept under the rug. it is suggestive that ip knows my alignment. only scum know alignments of other players.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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ebwop: just to be clear, i am saying that ip may know that i am town. he may also know that mega is town as well but by placing his vote on a growing bandwagon he has a better chance to avoid accountability. i.e. if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched. it just doesn't sit well with me for someone to vote for who they think is the third scummiest player in the game.town 39-32
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desperation? are you implying that i am desperate? why would that be? i'm not getting this at all. we are on page 5 and nowhere near a lynch. my hypothetical "lylo" situation was just to show that i am aware of what i'm doing. also, lylo is a possibility in any game. it is not a warning, just a very sensible suggestion.Atronach wrote:
Posts like these strike me as extremely odd. Why in the world would you be talking about a lynch or lose situation this early in the game? This line of thinking reeks of desperation. A lylo situation is not even a remote possibility at this point so why the "warning"/attempt at contingency plans?
less about knowing alignments, yes. if he is scum then he knows alignments. it is peculiar voting which draws my attention. normally one would vote for the person most likely to be scum. but ip is voting for the player with the third place rating. why? it could lend itself to ip knowing i am town and jumping a bandwagon. it could lend itself to mega being ip's scumbuddy. it could lenditself to chaos being his scumbuddy(not voting, but scoring high so that if chaos is lynched later, he can point to his original post and say, "see i thought so."). it could lend itself to me being his scumbuddy for the same reasons. in any scenario i can think of to describie why he is voting the way he is, however, there is a clear parralel. that being that in every scenario, he is scum. so unless he can explain why he is voting that way i have no alternative but to begin campaigning for his lynch.plum wrote:I see it being scummy, but I don't see too much indication that he knows your alignment - unless you're scumbuddies with him. Or he knows you're town but is deliberately voting his scumbuddy instead (in such fashion that he's becoming suspected, no less) because he knows you're town.
Scummy yes. Strong case of very scummy alignment-knowledge? Nope.
On Preview: O . . . kay. In my opinion, actually joining a bandwagon on a Townie comes with its own set of difficulties for scum. But I see where you're coming from there now and it makes general sense. You're really saying it's less about knowing your alignment and more about joining a more advantageous Townie bandwagon, yeah?town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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this is the easy answer. it still does not explain your scoring system. if you wanted to pressure mega, you would not have listed him as your third place scum candidate.insanepenguin02 wrote:
Well in all actuality, I really wanted to get some reaction out of mega. As he has not responded much since, I have been left without the additional info (reaction) that I wanted. I do think that you, don, have been scummier than mega overall, HOWEVER I wanted to see some more specific reaction out of mega, thus the vote. If you want me to vote for you, I have absolutely no problem with that but for now, until I get more from mega, my vote stands.town 39-32
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you are saying your vote on mega was a pressure vote. what kind of pressure were you hoping to apply by giving him such an obvious out? i.e. if you wanted to pressure him you could have made a much shorter post and jumped on the bandwagon to gauge his reaction. you, however, wrote a novella about every players scumminess or towniness. what kind of reaction did you expect other than, "huh? why are you not voting for who you think is most likely scummy?"insanepenguin02 wrote: I think that this post right here shows that nobody really knows anything at this point and are just trying to dig for info for their own and for the group's good. What if this, what if that? We don't know and that is why I asked so many questions and enjoy sparking discussion!
And if it apparently so clear to you that I am a certain role in the game, why would I make such a "peculiar" vote in your opinion? IMO that wouldn't be a very smart move for me to make. And see, I didn't vote for the one that I saw "most scummy" though am getting a pretty good reaction out of you. Why is that?
had you not said yourself that:
you would have a case. had you not rated TWO playersip wrote:I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.morescummy than mega, you might also have been able to get away with the "it was a pressure vote" excuse. you, however, bandwagoned. plain and simple. plum has already pointed out the wifom defense which is poor. even still, if you ask me that question i'd say that you just slipped up.
why are you getting a reaction out of me? oh, i don't know, maybe because i'm paying attention.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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i'd like for ip to get into the discussion a bit more. a pr claim isn't a free pass. you have done nothing but omgus against your "three scummiest" players and presented nothing in the way of hard evidence. how do you feel about juls? you scored her at 7, i believe.
porkens: don't know your meta, but i don't see you as necessarily anti-town. who are your top picks for lynch and why? please include what it is you found scummy enough about ip to put him at L-1. for the record, i agree that an L-1 claim is standard.town 39-32
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the only way for you toMegatheory wrote:There's no way his wagon wasn't scum driven. I still think he's scum because if I was his partner, I would probably bus him, too.knowthat the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. butdefinitely? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.
canadianbovine: are you aware that ip has claimed a power role? i still find him scummy, i'm just not sure if you noticed he claimed or not. your post didn't seem to mention it. also, please stop saying the day 1 lynch doesn't matter. it does. yes, sheer odds point to a mislynch, but there is a huge difference between the best lynch, a good lynch, a not so good lynch, and the absolute worst lynch.town 39-32
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typical is an extremely subjective term. short answer, yes. ip's post was horrible. do i believe there was no scum on the wagon? no, but i accept the possibility. i'm just saying to choose your words carefully here. if ipMegatheory wrote:
So you think a typical town would run up penguin to L-1 in that situation without any scum voting for him?don_johnson wrote: the only way for you toknowthat the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. butdefinitely? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.isscum, then he could have pretty readily been sandbagged by 6 eager townies while his scum partner(s) faded into the background. smart scum isn't going to push a wagon it doesn't need to.town 39-32
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if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.cb wrote:do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.town 39-32
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i would like to see more contribution as well. not sure if i will agree with a lynch. depends on the rest of the day(i.e. a counterclaim).Nameless wrote:Yeah, IP's not even trying to be helpful now. Given that he did put the effort into his series of questions and answers earlier I'm not inclined to believe he's an angsty townie. He dies comes deadline if nothing else major comes up.
i have reread porkens posts. they are not suspicious to me. the L-1 vote is almost suspicious, but somebody has to do it. his laziness in helping lynch scum could be just that. later in the game it would be more suspicious, but on day1 anyone who actually dropped the hammer would be stupid. that said, let's be cautious with putting people at L-1 as long as canadianbovine walks among us.nameless wrote:Don doesn't find Porkens anti-town? Even though Porkens hasn't contributed really at all? That's being (mildly) suspiciously overgenerous.
i agree. megatheory has been racking up scumtells from page one when he insinuated i was town. not sure yet if he is slipping, or if he is just choosing poor words.nameless wrote:Megatheory states there are no cops in this game (from flavour NPC kills). He also states that scum must be on IP's wagon. I find both these statements overly sure and dubious. And Mega, yeah I'm serious about that promise. It's not about whether IP is town or scum, it's about dissuading scum (and overeager townies) from cutting off discussion time in a constantly deadlined game.
i wouldn't say scummy. it is wifomic. its poor play.nameless wrote:Okay, seriously, people who think D1 doesn't matter are wrong. Discussion now is just as important as any other day, skilled townies can pick up on scummy actions just like any other day etc. Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy. I'm looking at you, bovine.
i've thought on this, but, well, they may just really be canadian.nameless wrote:Either bovine is not reading the thread, or bovine is BSing. Going to go with BSing here,FoS: canadianbovine. Also, believe it or not, "consistent posting" is not an excuse for you to look scummy. -_-
there are so many variables, but letting him live a night or two could be very helpful. if we have a doc, and we lynch scum, then doc doesn't have to protect him. let the mafia confirm him or leave him be. whoever he investigates can confirm him. i don't think theres anyway to completely confirm him without his eventulal death, though. at least none that i can see. if we think he's lying we lynch him day 2. the most important thing to do to spin this to our advantage is to lynch scum today. so everyone not worried about who we lynch should start paying attention.nameless wrote:Atronach, stop and think about that plan for two seconds. Tracker not equal cop. If IP is a tracker and targeted scum, the scum will just claim a powerrole. Or IP could target a powerrole, and they'll be forced to claim, so we're not going to know which from IP alone. Or IP could target a vanilla townie. Or IP could be scum and claim to have targeted a vanilla townie. Do you see where I'm going with this?
your reasoning is somewhat sound, but lynching an uncounterclaimed pr on day 1 is just plain silly. if you are so sure he's scum then we should be able to pick out his partner(s) from all this mess. i would like to hear from juls, she posted earlier to say she would post later. she hasn't as of the time that i'm writing this. apologies in advance if i get ninja'd.nameless wrote:Oh Porkens, not you to. Even if we assumed the game had no cop that's not reason to assume there must be tracker, or that if there were and IP weren't they would they'd need to claim now. And it's GREAT to know you have no reason to believe IP is scum after putting him at L-1 and saying other cases had convinced you.
[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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wifomic in the sense of whether or not complacency is a scumtell. porkens might just beNameless wrote:
That's not what WIFOM is. Also, gah, with posts like the one you just made it is really hard to not to start mentioning connections between players. (Not that it stopped you suggesting I look for connections from IP.)don_johnson wrote:
i wouldn't say scummy. it is wifomic. its poor play.Nameless wrote:Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy.lazy. cb might just not be observant.
NOONE suggested leaving him alone until endgame.Nameless wrote:Yes, IP is right. He can't prove himself in one night. Therefore, we must leave him alive until the endgame. *Nod, nod* Also, did he seriously just blame his lack of analysis on the weather?your alternative is to lynch an uncounterclaimed town power role on day 1?had you actually read my suggestion.
holy pile of crap statement. you are insinuating that the person(me) probably most responsible for pointing out ip's initial flawed post and then actively campaigning for his lynch is in league with said character. the third member of your "scum team" is a player who very well may have accidentally hammered ip? the fact you are trying to call a scum team on day 1 is far worse than speculating on scum partners which has already been discussed as poor strategy. also, your blanket statement(by sheer probability) has around a 25% chance of completely screwing up the game for town. odds suggest that each of the three names you mentioned(and this would work with any three players names) has a 25-30% chance of flipping scum. and you don't want to explain this? how could you possibly narrow down the field in such a manner? why would you even post this this early in the day? not to mention the generic, wifomic,Nameless wrote:Screw it.I'm saying this much in case I die N1, but don't expect me to elaborate further unless one of them flips scum: Possible insanepenguin02 - canadianbovine - don_johnson scumteam. That is all.
nonsensical "if i die tonight" bullshit.
vote: nameless
this is nowhere near omgus. nameless is posting wifom to confuse town. there is no other explanation for posting the things he has posted at this point of the game. my vote stays until you explain yourself logically.town 39-32
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statements like this draw my attention. i.e. how would someone know that three players make up thegeraintm wrote:you better start posting better cause i am very tempted to vote for you, my own little lynch all liars mantra is lynch all who attempt to guess on day onethe entire scum team...
entire scum team? geraintm, please explain why you are assuming(like nameless) that we are dealing with a three player scum team?
that aside, if we've been paying attention: there were two nk's to start this game. we are probably dealing with either rival families or an sk. correct? i am not as familiar with twelve person set-ups but i would assume that rival families would have to be pairings and not threesomes. though geraintm may have just chosen words poorly in their post, this idea makes my suspicion of nameless swell just a bit more. i never really trust players who point out obvious things like ,"in case i'm not here tomorrow..." but i digress. i would like more discussion on recent matters. still waiting for juls to pick up where they left off.town 39-32
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i figured. just had to ask. why do you think nameless named three? does that strike you as suspicious(aside from thegeraintm wrote:don, it was just a follow on from his post, where he named three people. i have no clue how many scum are in the game. it is just poor choice of words, no more no lessgeneralsuspiciousness of the statement)?
ip: please give us your opinion on nameless.town 39-32
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what stirkes me as odd is that he would choose three as his number. two night kills, one a beheading, and he chooses a "three" player scum team. are you thinking two or three scum? my thought is that tossing out a three player scum team may be an sk trying to throw town off track. i am speculating, but until more discussion ensues or nameless comes up with something better my vote will stay. consider it a pressure vote at this point.canadianbovine wrote:
i think its scum and sk. Scum usually shoot the night kill, if im not mistaken, as there are anti night kill roles such as bullet proof, which stops scum night kills. I don't know why, but when I think of beheaded I think of SK's.
I don't quite understand Nameless' claim of their being a 3 scum team that he's already named. especially when one of them is un counterclaimed tracker.town 39-32
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it is just not that simple.Atronach wrote: This is a lot like what I was talking about in post 185. Penguin claimed. This needs to be put to the test. If he finds scum, we lynch the one he found. If they flip town, we lynch IP. If they are in fact scum, we'll see if he can find scum again. If he doesn't find scum, we lynch IP. Doctor, should there be one, should keep IP safe during the night.
ip: exactly what kind of information can you get? people have mentioned that if you investigate a town pr you would get the same result as scum? sorry, i have not played with a tracker yet.
as i said before, doc protection for ip should maybe depend on whether who we lynch today flips scum or town. ip so far has proven nothing to us. though it doesn't make sense to lynch him, protecting should not be a definite. also, by not letting scum know for sur what we are doing it gives us a better chance of avoiding an nk.
i will not worry about deadline just yet. for now i suggest we try and find someone other than an uncounterclaimed town power role.town 39-32
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why and why?Megatheory wrote:
Please save it until we've made a decision about penguin.Juls wrote:Finished readthrough (finally!). A post will come tonight with my thoughts, I just need to turn my notes into a coherent post.
Also, let's not direct the doc, if there is one.
i'd like juls thoughts. i am not saying to direct the doc, but agreeing on some guidelines that would help us in confirming our "tracker" would be helpful to town. if all tracker can do is confirmvanilla towniesthen we needn't waste protection on him. if he is who he says he is then he's probably safe at this point anyway. we can lynch him tomorrow if we still feel it makes sense. then at least we can confirm his one investigation and him.town 39-32
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i asked geraintm to guage a reaction, to which i got what i consider a null tell. naming a scum team or pairing is bad on day 1. you are feeding mafia strategy. you have no real case against two of the three you name, and you refuse to draw out the connections you've made. i hope what you posted is not your connections, because by those accounts we are all connected. so if you do die tonight town is left to wonder and suddenly begins picking off the players you named in hopes of finding scum? is that your hope? that is extremely anti-town. the mega/don scum pairing was brought up, which is what prompted me to post the statement that juls can't seem to stomach. with two kills a night(three if town has a vig), lylo is way more of a possibility than you think, so my statement was simply good advice to town: don't bring a fallguy to lylo. it costs town the game more often than not. that being said i am happy to lynch you today.Nameless wrote:
@ Don, I "assumed" a three player scumteam because I noticed interactions between ... three players. I find it interesting that you ask the question to geraintm, rather than myself, though. Why was that?
*gets behind wagon, starts to push* "come on! let's lynch this guy!"
juls: good observation on dan. do you feel he has the best chance of flipping scum? because it doesn't seem like he would be a good informational lynch. your suspicions of me seem to waver a bit. i have explained the quote you question twice now. you do realize that day 3 could be lylo for town? i disagree with your ip plan, but i do think he should be left until tomorrow.unlesshe starts doing some actual scum hunting i say we almost have to get his results and lynch him sonner rather than later, regardless. it would be a nicer scenario if we lynch scum today. also, why would you assume someone countering ip's results to be scum? that makes no sense to me. in any case:
*hands juls a flier with a digitally enhanced picture of nameless swinging from a tree branch*
"vote nameless"town 39-32
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it is wifom like this that keeps me from embracing you as town. rather than whining about it and living in the past, the best thing you can do is start scum hunting. you need to change players minds about you, not just keep apologizing and regretting your behavior. also, as a townie you should be less concerned with your own demise. your death will vindicate you if you are who you say you are, and will also serve to confirm whoever it is you choose to target. that said:insanepenguin02 wrote:
So there is a lot of chance, I guess. IMO, not the easiest thing to claim if I were actually scum. For the good of the town, I shouldn't have posted what I did earlier by asking so many questions and looking suspicious in so many of your eyes' because then I could have lived a few more days and given the town some very good info, I would imagine. But now I am targeted by fellow townies (I would assume) who want me lynched EVEN AFTER A POSSIBLE GOOD TRACK IN NIGHT ONE and obviously would be targeted by the mafia due to being a power role.
*hands juls a flier with a digitally enhanced picture of nameless swinging from a tree branch*
"vote nameless"
care to elaborate? your only defense at this point that you are not scum is that you are lazy. do you plan on playing like this the entire game?porkens wrote:Between the Don/Nameless/Ger conversation, the last few interactions, I believe, have gone into namelesses corner.town 39-32
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i would like some more analysis. that is all. i was not implying that you are scum, just pointing out that you seem to be enjoying playing on the fringe. the question was somewhat rhetorical. i don't know you, but i am expecting you to contribute more.Porkens wrote:
What do you want? An un-cc'd claim? Some kind of proof? Gimmie a break.don wrote: your only defense at this point that you are not scum is that you are lazy. do you plan on playing like this the entire game?
No, I don't.
also:
*hands porkens a button that says "vote nameless"*
i am getting quite the loner vibe from nameless. i know his "off track" posting may not seem scummy to most, but with the flavor of the first nk's and his pointing to a three person scum team with no real connections and then refusing to comment further on it points to sk. at least for me. its worth a shot. ip is by no means "clear" in my mind, i just see more value in him as a day 2 lynch if we choose to go that route. live scum can prove helpful in flushing out more scum, if you get my meaning.town 39-32
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for starters:Porkens wrote:Tell me more about this "loner" vibe...?
the "if i die" speculation should be reserved for twilight, and even then, should be fully explained. why do i use the term "lonely"? because to me, fear of nightkill is a shared dilemma. we are all at risk of dying at night, to single yourself out is suspicious.nameless wrote:Screw it. I'm saying this much in case I die N1, but don't expect me to elaborate further unless one of them flips scum: Possible insanepenguin02 - canadianbovine - don_johnson scumteam. That is all.
also, wanting to lynch an uncc'ed tracker on day 1 is like saying "we(i) don't need any help in this game." town needs help. mafia and sk do not.
"poor me, why is everyone picking on me?" there are in truth only a couple of us who responded to these posts. so yeah, i feel like nameless has isolated himself.nameless wrote:Yeesh. I make one sidenote and suddenly it's FLAME ON.town 39-32
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are you kidding? please show us where you "can see where that "vibe" you are getting is coming from.". piggybacking on my case makes you look even worse. you do realize that, don't you?insanepenguin02 wrote:don - You have an intriguing case building. Looking back over nameless's posts, I can see where that "vibe" you are getting is coming from.
*Take the handout from don_johnson , folds it up, and puts it in the right, back pants pocket*town 39-32
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i don't agree. i think porkens has been a null tell. they don't fall into the category of "lurker" for me, and the L-1 was a null tell play(though maybe not the smartest). though setting up a "quidckhammer" may be a viable way to catch newb scum, you run the risk of having someone like canadianbovine stepping in and "accidentally" hammering. whether or not they(cb) are scum is still undecided.Nameless wrote:So anyway, I propose we lynch one of the following players:
Porkens, for lurking and the dubious L-1.
i will do a reread here. is lynching a player who has little interaction with the group going to be all that beneficial for town?Nameless wrote:Danchaofan, for saying VERY little but filler (see Juls's #224), especially after comments like "if I don't see scum hunting, eventually, I'll be serious.".
its nice how you detail my actions but don't really explainNameless wrote:u]don_johnson[/u], for the self vote, following overly long/pointless discussion, following mega vote and the awful "wifomic? yes. but only until my death." self pairing THING, still disagree with the way he jumped on the IP bandwagon with what I see as the (then exagerated) smallest reason, seriously arguing semantics (eg. #172), frequently using "wifomic" to cast false suspicion on arbitrary players/posts, for a second time exagerating and pushing a single minor point as the only reason to lynch somebody (that's me!), make it overly clear that he doesn't know the scum setup, trying to partially direct the doc (#220), aaaaaand epic stretching by taking a cassual comment ("Yeesh ...") as serious evidence that someone (me again) is SK.howthey are scummy. my votes have been pretty well explained. you disagree with my jumping on the ip bandwagon? intersting. i thought i was like the first one on that wagon. jumping? more like pushing. as i stated earlier, my reasoning was not simply that he voted his third scummiest. my vote on ip was because of how they voted. they made a list with actual rankings of scumminess andthenvoted the third on that list. a pressure vote it was not.
also, i believe you were speculating as to whether or not cb was scum due to their "accidental" hammer vote on ip. that is what i was referring to as wifom. that is wifom. any argument you have in the game of mafia regarding whether a person would act a certain way because of their alignment is wifom. i bring it up alot because it exists on almost every page.
what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game. again, you exhibit the "loner" vibe.
i'm not saying you are sk. i'm saying you are suspicious. suspicious enough to lynch day 1 for sure. interesting how you strawman a case against me while accusing me of it.
noting connections with no explanation is crap. no i don't want you to feed mafia strategy, but you already fucked up by drawing connections. without explaining yourself you leave the players in question with no possible way of defending themselves from what may eventually turn into an angry mob. i don't think anyone's seeing strawman here. i am notnameless wrote:@ Don, first you say I'm "feeding mafia strategy" by daring to mention something for later, but then accuse me of refusing to elaborate ... which is what you've been calling scummy in the first place. Do you WANT me to actually feed mafia strategy?One last time guys, noting possible connections for future consideration not equal seriously claiming I've found a three man scum team.Everybody else seeing Don's strawman here? Good. (Also, I work under the basic assumption the town aren't as retarded as you make them out to be, and will not mindlessly lynch a player because one townie noted some connections earlier.) The fliers are a nice touch, though.accusingyou of refusing to elaborate. youarerefusing to elaborate. thats a fact. trying to insinuate that i think town is retarded is strawmanning. its putting words into my mouth to make yourself look better. why? because you have no case and you are scum and you need to rely on smoke and mirrors to get your votes. me? i'm grassroots!
*begins handing out fliers with digitally enhanced pictures of nameless' body being dragged around a vacant lot behind a pick-up*
"vote nameless! you won't regret it!"
why are you no longer pushing for ip's lynch? your new "best lynch" list is two players you are labeling as "lurkers" and an omgus. you do realize that, don't you?town 39-32
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noone is "directing" the doctor", but having a strategy isn't bad. ultimately, if we have a doctor they are always free to make up their own mind, but in the case of ip, i strongly suggest not wasting the doc's ability on themJuls wrote:
Don’t direct the doctor. If we start putting out direction to a possible doctor you are broadcasting to scum what town wants to have done. Let the doctor decide if there is one. Lets keep them hidden!don_johnson 256 wrote: what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game. again, you exhibit the "loner" vibe.if, and onlyif, we lynch scum today. i am not asking doc to claim, or in any way do something that could hurt town. ip has shown themselves scummy. tracker results, as many have now pointed out, have the distinct possibility of outing a town power role, so protecting said player would be silly in any case, but if we lynch scum today, protecting them is unecessary. in my opinion. "broadcasting" strategy to scum is bound to happen. the key is finding a strategy that works whether they know it or not. it is all i am suggesting.town 39-32
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juls, you are either misunderstanding me, or i am not being clear. i said nothing about the doctor in regards to who ip fingers. i am saying that the doctors power would be wasted protecting ip,Juls wrote:Big FOS: don_johnson.It seems pretty suspicious to me that you would tell the doctor NOT to waste their power on someone that IP fingers.It seems like scum not wanting a doctor to protect a town power role. Let the friggin doctor decide if there is one. You just directed the doctor after saying no one is directing the doctor. You can direct a doctor by insinuation. If there is a doctor out there, please make up your own mind and do not do anything that ANYONE tells you to do. It may be scum (like don_johnson) directing you.ifwe lynch scum today. i am speaking in terms of a town strategy, not trying to tell the doctor what to do.
i am putting this up for discussion:
if we lynch a townie today it makes sense to offer ip protection. if he is town he will need protection and we would better benefit with results from an investigation. even if he is scum, results from a fraudulent investigation could turn out to be helpful in either outing ip as scum, or his partner(s).
if we lynch scum today, then we need the results of ip's investigation less so, and so i would say protecting ip in that scenario would not be as important. this is my opinion, i am not trying to direct the doctor. i am trying to help town find a strategy where ip is useful, because as of right now, they are not.
if we lynch scum today, and ip is town, scum would be better off nking them(ip) than leaving them alive due to their "investigative powers". if they do so, then ip is confirmed at the start of day two. ip confirmed is more helpful than living, breathing, useless non scum hunting ip.
if mafia leaves ip alive, then we have results of their investigation and go from their, possibly outing another scum day 2. further, if ip's investigation sounds suspicious, we lynch ip confirming not only ip(if they flip town), but also whoever they investigated. get it?
if we lynch scum today, ip could be just as helpful dead as they are alive. if we mislynch, ip would be better off "doctor protected" and alive for the start of day 2. that's what i'm saying.
i don't think it really benefits mafia to know this strategy. if doc wants to protect ip regardless, then by all means they should do it. the fact that they might will have mafia guessing and will therefore work in our favor anyway. i said nothing in regards to ip's target and how anyone should act forthwith. i bolded the above part of your statement which is a complete miscommunication between us.
also, how do you feel about nameless?
*hands juls another flier... and a button*town 39-32
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veiled threats will get you nowhere and do town no good. i am not deciding for the doctor(if we have one). i am not trying to sway the doctor. nor am i trying to decide this strategy for the town. i am simply giving my thoughts on the subject. the fact that you seem to be turning a deaf ear to my entire theory based on the small misconception you have that i am trying to lead the town doctor is brow raising. i'm not going to bother with an FoS.Juls wrote:LET THE DOCTOR DECIDE!!!!!
If the hypothetical doctor decides the mafia is forced to take a chance on an IP night kill and possibly come up empty handed (assuming IP is telling the truth) or focus on somebody else.Still FoS on don....stop leading a potential doctor. If you do it one more time I am switching my vote to .
do we agree that it is a bad idea to walk blindly into day 2 with no plan whatsoever?
also, according to your previous suggestion,anyone countering ip's investigation will be scum?so if ip investigates a town pr and calls them out as scum, they should not counterclaim? so we lynch them(even if they are a town pr) on ip's word? the other option being that if they do counter his investigation we lynch them for "countering"? makes no sense. further, what if ip targets avanilla townieand paints them as scum. we lynch them on ip's word? or they counter, you assume them scum and they are lynched anyway? i am not seeing how your idea is any better than mine.
also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?town 39-32
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whatever. fact: doctor(if there is one) will make the decision in secret. i don't think it detrimental in the least to have a plan, but obviously this conversation is bothering you(referring to the all caps and multiple exclamation points). what you are not realizing about my plan is that if we follow it, it simply isn't going to matter whether scum knows ip will have doc protection or not. the idea is to create a situation where town has some control over how its remaing players begin day 2. you wanna wing it? go ahead.Juls wrote:
If the things you were suggesting had no effect on what mafia does at night I wouldn't have a problem with it but I would rather the doctor make the decision in secret on Day1!!!!!!!don_johnson 262 wrote:also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?town 39-32
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sure. cb claims he had no idea about the claim. if he hadn't read that part, odds are that he hadn't noticed ip was at L-1 just before the claim, or that people had unvoted, thus clearing ip from danger. the way it looked to me is that cb almost accidentally dropped a hammer vote on ip without even realizing what was going on. you speculate that they are no that stupid. which is where my wifom comment came in. this:Nameless wrote:
I'm not sure WHY you're using the term "hammer vote" (or accidental for that matter) here when there has been no mention from cb or myself about him trying to hammer. Care to explain?don_johnson wrote:also, i believe you were speculating as to whether or not cb was scum due to their "accidental" hammer vote on ip. that is what i was referring to as wifom.
is wifom. being optimistic isn't a bonafide mafia strategy.Nameless wrote:(As for the speculation, you see, I have this optimistic outlook on people that I honestly don't believe any player would be stupid enough to make a vote without actually reading any new posts first.)
yes. a loner vibe points to sk. my case against ip was not weak. for exapmple, would you find it suspicious if i wrote:Nameless wrote:Incidentally: You were the third on the wagon (I still think your point was the weakest against him/exaggerated), depends how you define pressure, that's a rather loose and meaningless usage of wifom then, and you did say that what I was doing specifically pointed to an sk.
i think anyone might as it makes no sense. ip's post screamed scum to me as it just so happened that his vote went onto a live bandwagon instead of on to his top two scum.nameless and juls are the scummiest two players i see. vote: danchaofan.
this is a complete 180. reasonable? yes. but still a complete 180.Nameless wrote: I'm no longer pushing for IP's lynch because there is some benefit to leaving him alive for a day or two, and more to the point I know I'm not going to convince enough people to lynch him today.
agreed, so stop doing it.nameless wrote:misleading the town is obviously a problem too)
my reasons for voting you are sound. i have not implied that you have done anything i cannot prove.nameless wrote:and yes, youdosuck for voting me in the same flawed fashion as you did IP as well as the various other reasons most of which I noted even before you attacked me.
And hey, this attack on me only came after I noticed a few dubious actions of yours and noted you in the connections, so we can ignore it as an overreacting OMGUS too, right?
townies lynch townies all the time. if you don't want to leave a good trail of information then you're not playing this as a team game. loose speculations in the manner which you put them, without any evidence has the potential to mislead even the smartest townie.nameless wrote:
This? This is the part where you seriously consider the town would playdon_johnson wrote:you leave the players in question with no possible way of defending themselves from what may eventually turn into an angry mobthat badly. I'm going to go ahead and keep playing as if the town weren't idiots, if that's okay with you.
please explain this strawman. 262 is a list of questions determined to help me understand what juls is talking about. inn that post i am seeking clarification of her plan.nameless wrote:Also, suggesting a strategy for the doctor is the same thing as directing the doctor, no questions. And Don is doing just that (#260, OMG), after it having been explained several times why this is a bad idea.Don is also strawwomaning Juls in #262, no questions there either.
also, no one has explained why using the doctor to towns advantage is bad. in fact, you and juls just keep reiterating the fact that it is bad, but have not come up with a plausible scenario where it is bad. i have not asked the doctor to expose themselves, but asked town to come to a consensus on how we go about using ip to our advantage. i have asked for input, not dictated others actions.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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wifomic. i use it as an adjective to describe when someone speculates on why a player is acting a certain way and how it refers to their alignment, or anything parralel. look it up. almost evcerything we argue about in this game is wifom. i keep saying it because people say i'm misusing it. saying "the town is smart and so they wouldn't run off half-cocked and lynch a guy over a crappy post from day 1 that had no substantiating evidence" is wifomic. why? because it is basing a resolution of an as yet undetermined situation on a number of assumptions, one being that town is somehow "inherently intelligent". like i said, "optimism" does not seem like a good thing to base one's strategy off of.plum wrote:
What WIFOM? I'm getting sick of you slapping that term around without regard (you use it so often and too often it's misplaced or simply not really the point you're trying to get acroos. Seriosly, next time you want to say 'WIFOMic', explain what you find townie/scummy/circular about the subject in question, just as an experiment).dj wrote:nameless wrote: (As for the speculation, you see, I have this optimistic outlook on people that I honestly don't believe any player would be stupid enough to make a vote without actually reading any new posts first.)
is wifom. being optimistic isn't a bonafide mafia strategy.
i have not accused anyone of having "brains the size of eggplants", nor did i refer to anyone as "retarded". those two terms were placed into this conversation by plum and nameless respectively. sorry for trying to point out that nameless doesn't have connections, is lying, and is scum.
you say you are so smart, but noone here claims to see the benefit of discussing the doctors(if we have one) role in town strategy. the point is moot. me talking about what the doctor will do is meaningless to both the doctor and mafia. to insinuate that i am somehow hurting town by discussion is entirely scummy.
so far, almost everyone's "alternative" to lynching ip is to string up a lurker. at least atronach is trying. if you want me on the list that's fine, it would just be nice to see someone actually substantiate a case against me:
1) nameless: for the "loner" vibe, strawmanning, for "optimistically" depending on something other than their own wit, muddying the waters with scum team speculation, "if i die tonight" bullshit(see loner vibe), omgus etc.
2) ip for his horrendous post and subsequent meltdown.
3) don_johnson for attempting to discuss and form a cohesive strategy to which town can use ip's day 1 blunder to their advantage, using the word wifom too much, asking people to substantiate claims and present evidence, and actually trying to campaign for someone elses lynch.
how's that for ya?
atronach:
thank you for your observations. i will take a closer look at geraintm. i believe they are v/la over the weekend and will look forward to their response.
plum: if we don't lynch scum today, you don't want to have ip protected so we may benefit from their results? you just want the doctor to decide? even if the doctor is geraintm who(as determining by their "random lynching" comment) may simply apply their power randomly so as to have no effect on town strategy? yes, i am speculating, but you, like juls and nameless, have not explained how this hurts town.
here are two situations(both considering ip to be town aligned):
hypothetical 1: we all agree that doc protects ip. mafia nk's someone else because they know our strategy..
hypothetical 2: we all agree that doctor should decide for themselves. mafia nk's someone else due to the mystery surrounding whether or not the doctor actually did protect ip.
two scenarios. one outcome. town still has ip's results the following day.
and if ip's scum(provided we don't lynch him today)? he's not going to die anyway. we waste doc protection for night 1. ip claims "roleblock" or feeds town terrible results and gets himself lynched.
let me be clear: IF TOWN HAS A DOCTOR THEY SHOULDN'T BE LISTENING TO ME AND ONLY ME! I AM NOT TRYING TO DIRECT YOU. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT.
that said: i will not mention strategy again. i am willing to switch my vote if someone brings a case against a better lynch candidate than my own. i am willing to lynch ip or hop a bandwagon i don't necessarily believe in, ONLY to avoid a no lynch situation. other than that my vote is going to stay where it is. i will be doing a reread of the few others whose names have been suggested for lynch.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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okay. post 226 is a short explanation of why leading the doctor can be bad, however, you are ignoring the current situation of an uncc'd power role. doc can do as they wish and i will drop the subject. i must point out that noone has even discussed my ideas. i don't get it.
also, i am not understanding juls plan at all. that is why i asked her questions. she said she didn't want anyone to counter ip's investigation. i get that, "if you are a town pr don't reveal yourself". however, then we are left with the quandary of who to lynch. the later idea of ip keeping their results a secret is a good one, however, if they are nk'd night two then we lose results. perhaps we should compromise and ask ip to reveal results in twilight? i really don't know here, what i am hoping is to form a good strategy so that we don't just waste our tracker(if he is who he says he is).
i did not say loner vibe = sk. i said it points to it. in my opinion. also, by the phrases you choose to use i can provenameless wrote:You can prove a loner vibe that equals SK now? (At least, that hilarious and cutting retort still holds if I've actually managed to wrap my mind around that confusing statement right.)whyi'm getting a loner vibe. you have yet toproveyour strawman accusation(see above). part of the reason i keep on you, nameless, is because of statements where you have been putting words in my mouth. to me that is scummy. if you want me to stop responding then i will ask that you stop spinning my arguments.
"veiled threats" refers to the obsession players have with using their vote in a threatening manner. "you better knock it off or i'll vote you." it seems more of a scum tactic. this being a team game, townies are often asked to "take one for the team" because their mislynches will provide valuable information. townies, especiallyvanilla townies, should really not be afraid of peoples votes and should therefore see no benefit to using them in a threatening manner. therefore i generally associate threats being a daylight strong arm tactic used by mafia who seem to have good standing with the town. that's what i mean.
well place this in the context it was in in ip's post. complete with numerical scores.nameless wrote:
Only depending on the context.dj wrote:would you find it suspicious if i wrote [nameless and juls are the scummiest two players i see. vote: danchaofan.] ]
unvote
*tears up fliers, tosses buttons into garbage can*
it is obvious noone sees what i am seeing. my only logical solution is to admit i have had tunnel vision for a few pages, go back and reread a bit.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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current top three:Danchaofan wrote:
@don: discussion of what the doc should do gives an idea to maf who the doc will protect giving them a better chance have a successful kill. Not good eh? Announcing in twilight doesn't help as mafia still get to make use of the information albeit marginally less time to contemplate the results. Please post a list of people you wouldn't mind seeing lynched.
1) nameless
2) Juls
3) ip
i have already explained why ip and nameless fit into my list. juls has been strawmanning all day in regards to my posting. this could be a miscommunication issue, as i am obviously not understanding her "nobody counter ip's findings" bit, however, she has exhibited what i find to be scum tells with both the veiled threat of a vote and her putting words into my mouth. if you need to i can digf up the quotes, but if you read my posts in isolation you can find all my responses to juls. also, both her and nameles have rather stealthily worked me into their top three lynch lists based on facts that really aren't scum tells. i know you disagree with discussing what the doctor should do, and i have since droppped that discussion, but in the context of utilizing our uncc'd tracker i believe it is more than a viable subject for discussion.
i am not going to imply a scum pairing here as i don't think that's the case, but i could easily see one of the two of them as scum buddying up to town. nameless "isolation" wordings in his posts have him as my most likely scum, but alas, there is inevitably some omgus in my findings. i do think that one of the two of them is scum as they have been supporting each other quite a bit and have both exhibited the unconscionable manuvre of putting words into my mouth. nameless accused me of strawmanning because i asked juls questions in order to clarify her position.
other than that, i just seem to rank high on both of their lists for my use of the word wifom, and my persistence in trying to decide on a town strategy to deal with our "tracker", which it seems as though everyone is abandoning at this point. my list is under review, but i am not going to lynch someone for "lurking". not on day 1. it leaves us with nothing to go on.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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no. not answered. the above paragraph makes no sense to me. why? if ip targets someone, finds out they went somewhere. we do nothing until ip dies? i don't see how that works to anyones advantage. your plan makes little sense to me. it gives ip and those he targets a free pass until when, exactly? i'm not trying to argue with you on this, i just don't see what you are trying to accomplish with this plan.Juls wrote:
Answered in post #257 and post #263. But I guess I will answer it again...That is based ondon_johnson 286 wrote:this could be a miscommunication issue, as i am obviously not understanding her "nobody counter ip's findings" bit,. The goal is to keep power roles hidden. The hypothetical where IP says:"DJ targetted Plum last night". and to avoid being targetted you say "no wait! I am a watcher!". If you were to do that and we had already agreed to my plan to just ignore IPs claims until he is proven by his death then I would assume you to be scum trying to get out of it.if we used my plan
this is a good idea, however it goes against your plan juls. what if ip tracks a town pr? the only way to know if ip finds scum is to lynch whoever he fingers, right?Juls wrote:
OK. So basically we treat him as a one-shot tracker and then if he finds scum he gets another shot. I can go with this. @IP - if you really are the tracker and we go with this strategy please don't lie to stay in the game. Your goal is for town to win, not for you to stay alive.Mega_Theory wrote:-Penguin can only get off the hook if he finds a player who targeted a dead player.
-If that player is lynched and comes up scum, penguin should be lynched unless he finds another player who targeted a dead player.
-This continues until penguin does not find a scum or three scum are dead. At that point, penguin is lynched.
-We guarantee that penguin does not survive until endgame.
i get the feeling you don't like me or something. i get alot of negative emotion from your posts. discussing strategy is not anti-town. discussing town pr set up's on day 1 is. trying to utilize everything at towns disposal in order to not only confirm a claimed pr but also find scum is not. funny, you have now admitted to threatenging me in order to get your point across. veiled threats are scummy. why do you think i would fear your vote?Juls wrote:
The point of the threat was to get you to SHUT UP plain and simple. I was trying to give you every opportunity to realize that what you were doing is anti-town and you should cut it out. The more you kept it up the more you looked scummy...and I can't help but notice you STILL continue to talk about it. Not leading anymore but completely keeping it in the discussion when everyone else is trying to move on from it.don_johnson 286 wrote:she has exhibited what i find to be scum tells with both the veiled threat of a vote and her putting words into my mouth.
i apologize for lumping you together. i certainly should not. it will give the wrong impression. sorry, but my feelings on how i am climbing the charts still stands.Juls wrote:
I can't speak for Nameless but I voted you in post #94, mention suspicions in post #224, and then of course there is #259, #261, and #263. That's not stealthy. You weren't top of my list when I posted my long post but you certainly weren't super townie to me either.don_johnson 286 wrote:]also, both her and nameles have rather stealthily worked me into their top three lynch liststown 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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could be subconsciously, but i don't believe so. neither of us seems to understand the other and we both feel as though we are using "the plainest of language". when you all caps phrases like "shut up" i take it personally. i am trying to gauge how much of your suspicion of me is based on what i am saying, and how much is based on you not liking how i am saying it. like i said, i have been a victim of tunnel vision with nameless, but it is what he is saying that gets me. how he says it bothers me, but i expect it from scum. the actual words and phrases he has chosen to get his points across are what i am suspicious of. i didn't have you pegged as scum before, but this constant inability to understand each other has to stem from somehwere. if its not that my style bothers you, and its not that we are just misunderstanding each other, then it must mean that you are scum. so i guess the answer is yes. you are female and i do not want you to be scum.juls wrote:Not game Related: Out of curiousity, why suggest that I "don't like you" when you didn't suggest the same for nameless or megatheory during your arguments with them. Is it because I am female?town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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funny. you must not have read my response to your accusations.(see post #256.) i am not just throwing around terms. i have explained why i am using those terms each and every time anyone hasd asked. try again.Nameless wrote: I notice Juls gives the same Lynch List as I do, which is either coincidental, or indicitive that we are both awesome scumhunters (probably not the later). Don has us both on his, and doesn't mention this fact (only that he's on both). Juls already responded to this, but it bears repeating ... there has been nothing "stealthy" about my arguments with Don and ongoing suspicion thereof. I'd say he was strawmanning, but Don is throwing that word around almost as much as wifom. Nevertheless, take note that Don ignores the majority of the reasons I'd lynch him (for a summary, please see #246.)
why is this bad? no one seems to agree with me. you mention plum, but they seem disinterested. what's wrong with admitting tunnel vision? i have been focused on you. it occcurs to me that i am not swaying voters. therefore my time is better served trying to do more scumhunting. i can alwaysNameless wrote:Another thing that I find suspicious, is that despite nearing deadline and still listing me as his #1 lynch candidate, Don unvotes me. He says "it is obvious noone sees what i am seeing." even when several postshaveindicated similar suspicion of me (I've even made Plum's scummy mashup!). He apparently admits tunnel vission, but continues making misleading statements about myself. Basically, without any obvious trigger or change of position, Don has unvoted as we near deadline.
This is a bad thing, and I'd love to hear an explanation for it.
vote: nameless
see. its not that hard.
this entire game is wifom. but thats just my opinion.nameless wrote:
I've been suspected from semantics, from someone who can't even use the term WIFOM sensibly. Well that's just great. Sigh.don_johnson wrote:the actual words and phrases [Nameless] has chosen to get his points across are what i am suspicious of.
unvote
okay, jump on me for speculating about a possible sk. i have been in games with them. the flavor fits. but i digress. apparently noone wants me to talk.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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thank you for posting them in such a readble way. if i may respond:Juls wrote:
My suspicions of you are based on:don_johnson 292 wrote:i am trying to gauge how much of your suspicion of me is based on what i am saying, and how much is based on you not liking how i am saying it.
1) talking about lylo on day 1 and I feel preparing an escape clause for yourself if MT turns out to be town.
2) being distracting. This is the third "fight" that you have started and have difficulty ending. you and MT had the theory discussion, you had your button/flyer campaign for nameless with few real bites, and now with me, you wouldn't end the doctor discussion despite at least 4 people suggesting it is a bad idea.
3) you were leading the doctor despite being asked to stop.
4) you targetting me in an OMGUS kind of way and the other person who finds you suspicious just happens to be on your lynch list. And the third person on your list is IP which at least 3/4 of us find suspicious.
1) i have been in lylo as early as day two in other games. day 3 easily. my lylo comment was meant to help town when deciding who to bring with them. i am not a viable endgame townie. my alignment is in such obvious doubt that i really don't see too many scenarios where it is in towns best interest to keep me alive for endgame. i do not believe that i am a good day1 lynch, but i understand i may be a liability for town come endgame.
2)i am not trying to "fight". i have pointed out things i see as scum tells. i have not shut anyone out, nor ignored any single question posed to me. i may not be the best communicator, but i have been trying. i was accused(by nameless) of strawmanning because i listed a series of questions for jul in order to better understand her plan.
3) i was not leading the doctor, i was attempting to engage town in a discussion to find the best way to utilize our uncc'd tracker. i repeated this many many times. saying that i was leading the doctorisstrawmanning. also, both plum and nameless keep saying that town is so smart. well if they are so smart then why would you even care if i was leading the doctor? if town is so smart then they would know better. anyhow, the point is moot. i never attempted to lead the doctor, i only sought town's help in developing a strategy to deal with ip.
4) i have been suspicious of ip since his "post". that suspicion has never wavered. i have well documented my case against nameless. i have pointed out extremely specific things he has posted as what i see as scumtells. i have not put words in his mouth(which he has repeatedly done to me), and i have unvoted due to lack of interest in his lynch. now he is suspicious because of that? i am in a no win situation here. juls, you have climbed my list because you are agreeing with nameless and i don't see how anyone protown can agree with his pov regarding my posts.
i feel i have been as helpful as i can possibly be. it is not omgus, i just honestly believe that a bandwagon on me would contain most(if not all) of the scum in this game.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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i have not been using wifom as an accusation. i have simply pointed out where players are using it and trying to pass it off as fact.Plum wrote:
You can take this approach to WIFOM if you feel like, it. It's legit enough, I guess. Just realize that if the whole game is WIFOM, WIFOM becomes an inherently useless accusation. I generally reserve WIFOM accusations for the times someone chooses to use a WIFOM-laden statement as an actual defense ala IP.don_johnson wrote:this entire game is wifom. but thats just my opinion.
QFT. this absence is unacceptable.juls wrote:@IP: If we don't hear something from you by tomorrow I am going to start pushing really hard for your lynch. You have been around the site but you are neglecting this game. People are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt despite every scumtell in the book but don't take advantage of us. Post something of substance ASAP.
plum is somewhat correct. talking setup is not going to be helpful, however, my case on nameless is what jumpstarted the speculation. the flavor is what got me thinking on it at the start of the game but i ignored it for a bit. when nameless began "isolating" himself it just kind of grabbed me. it is speculation. i just completed a game where i thought there was an sk and was wrong. turned out to be two families. so guessing at this stage may not be helpful. however, i don't see anything anti-town about simply bringing it up. plum's reaction is a bit harsh.mega wrote:I'd love to hear about it. Please. Make your case for there being a serial killer.
not whining. just not going to keep talking to the wall. i've been scumhunting since page 1. nameless is at the top of my list, but noone seems to want to go and reread his and my posts. if you do you will see how he is spinning every argument i make to look scummy. he is not explainingplum wrote:Stop the whiny-townie attitude here, if you please. I'd like you to talk scum-hunting sense. Not speculate about an SK. That speculation is worthless, distracting, and anti-town Day 1.himselfat all, nor does he respond to my accusations. he just brushes them aside behind a curtain of insulting comments. if you read my replies to his accusations you will see a much more cohesive line of explanations regarding my own actions.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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ebwop: regarding the sk/nameless case. my suspicions are not solely that nameless is sk. mafia tend to isolate themselves as well. his actions have convinced me that he is anti-town. the rest is my own speculation. please reread my posts. i posted more evidence based suspicions that we are no longer discussing. read where he accuses me of not replying to post 246. then read 256 and tell me what you think.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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not sure i buy this. are those your only two abilities? do you get to choose which you use at what time?geraintm wrote:claim then
Jack of All Trades, i can't focus on anything, i like to imagine myself as randy from my name is earl.
one shot tracker
one shot vig
as i said, i had flavour in my role message, hence my liking that post which was askign for flavour from penguin.
glad that got sorted out quick, you can all either decide to lynch me or go looking for someone else to go lynch.
if what you say is true, i don't remember ip adding flavour to his role. so why do you believe him? i am rereading the last two pages but want this question answered.
to all, vig is a nightkiller. perfect cover for scumorsk.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
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just finished reread. all of geraintm's contributions have come at L-2.
why did you not speak up previously? the discussion of what to do about ip carried on for several pages. why only mention this now?ger wrote:yep, planning how to deal with a tracker on day one when you are going to get results from otehr players seemed odd. i knew that i was going to be able to throw in a tracker result too for example, and i strongly suspect there will be mor epro-town info to come after night 1. i considered it a waste of time.
nice way to squeeze me in knowing full well my lynch is a consideration. way to cover your ass when i flip town.ger wrote: chaos
don
mega
plum
they seem the worst to me. lynching them different matter, if i thought they needed lynching i woul dbe voting for one of them already
why are you saying this NOW? the discussions had been going on for most of day 1 and you choose NOW to point out how you feel about these subjects...ger wrote:don - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:01 am his post here where he brings up the "more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing"
i never saw this.
up to this point, i found his posts to be pretty wishy washy, full of quantity but very little quality.i don't find his posts helpful in trying to find scum at all. too often responding to others comments, pressuring them to talk more or him directly asking questions, the whole doc thing, just a waste of time...same with any mention of SK
atronach has presented the weakest case so far. ger summed it up here:
yet he is absent from your scum list?ger wrote:so far, from what i can see, you have me as scum for not spotting a smiley, for suggesting a random lynch, for forcing penguin to fully claim and for not taking my vote off. that right?
penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker"ger wrote:penguin wanted to, but wasn't allowed to.
yes, vig could be a good cover for a SK or scum, but i wasn't going to claim and not include it.anda "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?
also, i find it interesting that you don't think i have been scum hunting. you could say i have been extraordinarily poorly scum hunting, but to say i haven't been scumhunting to me is extemely suspicious. i have over fifty posts in this game, and though some contain arguments with other players, they are mostly arguments over who i believe to be scum. i have repeatedly pointed out why i think players are scummy. i have backed up every reason i have used with evidence. you can call my evidence weak, but to say it is non existant is a complete misrepresentation of how i have been playing. i believe at this point that you are scum. you were cornered. though your claim doesn't seem desperate, you have pushed the town in my direction with your subtley placed criticism of my play which you have backed up with absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE.
i will withold my vote so as not to get you hammered prematurely, but unless you can explain why you posted the things about me that you already have, and why ip and atronach are absent from your scumlist, then i will support your lynch.
do not try to spin a new case on me. please back up what you have accused me of.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7398
- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
ebwop: i have rethought some things and alot will depend on how you respond. however, vig may be an entirely provable claim due to flavor in this game. i.e. if town directs ger's one-shot kill i would think it would not turn up as "beheaded". just a thought. what are others ideas?
P.S. anyone who tries to spin this as me directing the vig is scum. i am opening an avenue for discussion. not telling anyone what to do. directing any town pr is something town should do as a whole with an agreed upon strategy.
ger: i would like you to respond to my reqeust for evidence. if you have made an error i would like you to explain yourself.
seeing as how my current list is unacceptable to most townies and that deadline is approaching i will turn my attention to Atronach. their most recent attack doesn't sit well at the moment, however, i may simply be skewed by ger's response. i will post my assessment later today. until then:
ger please respond.
others: address how we can confirm geraintm. simply letting anyone who claims a power role off the hook on day one with no strategy to confirm any of them is poor play.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7398
- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
he also claimed one shot vig. i agree, though, why two trackers(one being a JOAT)? which is why i would like them both to post a paraphrase of their pms(mod approved of course).canadianbovine wrote:on the subject of confirming ger...That would be quite hard. He has that one shot tracker ability, and we can put him on the same plan we have for penguin. I just find it weird to have a JOAT with a tracking ability and a tracker also...town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7398
- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
thank you for your input on my suggestion that both claimed pr's "paraphrase" their pm's. if town directs the vig kill, the flavor of said kill may vindicate geraintm. you people realize that i would not be repeating myself so often if people took what i'm saying seriously and responded to it?Plum wrote:
It's possible, I suppose, though the likelyhood . . . meh.Porkens wrote:Why would we have two trackers?
Unvotefor now. DonJ is, of course, my second choice, so my vote's going there for now.
Vote: don_johnson
You responded with this when asked to name your top suspects. You're not voting anyone. Can you explain this here?geraintm wrote: chaos
don
mega
plum
they seem the worst to me. lynching them different matter, if i thought they needed lynching i woul dbe voting for one of them already
it is possible we have two trackers, but why a tracker and a JOAT with tracker as an ability? i think one of these two is lying.
meta question: also, is anyone familiar with the JOAT role? does it normally only have two abilities? the name suggests to me that their should be more than two options...town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7398
- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
ebwop: found this on wiki.
several implies more than two.The Jack-of-all-trades is a role withseveral night abilities, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.
i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7398
- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
pay attention much? Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig). come on man, we're close to deadline, the least you can do is RTFT.dan wrote:so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
yet another example of classic strawman. don_johnson NEVER stated that Atronach was scum.Nameless wrote:
Don thinks Atronach's case is weak, echoes Gera's (incomplete) rebutal, yet considers scum BUT withholds vote. (This close to deadline?) Don also accuses someone ELSE of "squeezing him in" their lynch list.
i am simply trying to help town and avoid a no lynch. i have been accused of spending too much time focusing in one area, now that i offer to focus elsewhere, nameless gets back to his old tricks. for the record: i reread Atronach's posts in isolation and found no reason to vote them. geraintm is not the best at explaining himself, and atronach's interpretations, though flawed, are not scummy.dj wrote:seeing as how my current list is unacceptable to most townies and that deadline is approaching i will turn my attention to Atronach. their most recent attack doesn't sit well at the moment, however, i may simply be skewed by ger's response. i will post my assessment later today.
vote:nameless
this is now my official deadline vote.
mega's last few posts have been nothing but town to me. their reasoning is solid, and being the first to suggest the self vig gives them townie brownies from me. it only makes sense to look through peoples posts and distinguish "bad play" from scum tells(see strawman above).nameless wrote:Note that Megatheory attempts to handwave the different cases against three players under the same category of "bad D1 play". This is stupid because bad play is an incredibly general term that pretty much every scummy action falls under, and because Mega tries to use this as a reason to attack several players for, god forbid, pushing a single player for lynching. Mega then states that one of Don or I must be scum (BAD, townies get into arguments too, you know). Mega also obviously defends Gera.HoS: Megatheoryand this man needs to be examined closely D2.
holy distraction batman! save it for twilight if you are the lynch. why do you continue to muddy the waters?nameless wrote:Oh, and after a quick reread and since it was so wildly popular last time, Gera - Mega - Bovine connectionsNOTED WELL.
*digs into garbage can, pulls out flier with picture of nameless swinging from a tree.* here ya go!nameless wrote:Argh, unsure whether / where to move vote for the greatest chance of scum or a useless townie or ANYONE being lynched today. >_<
dan is not paying attention. ADHD is not a scumtell.nameless wrote:I can't help but notice DCF suggested the idea but has not yet himself listed lynch preferences.town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra
this is what nameless has levied suspicion against cb for. this does not look like cb giving ger an "easy way out" as nameless puts it. it looks to me like a suggestion from someone who is clearly unsure of how to deal with the situation. i quote this only to show that nameless is not just targeting me with his misrepresentations.canadianbovine wrote:on the subject of confirming ger...That would be quite hard. He has that one shot tracker ability, and we can put him on the same plan we have for penguin. I just find it weird to have a JOAT with a tracking ability and a tracker also...town 39-32
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don_johnson Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 7398
- Joined: December 4, 2008
- Location: frozen tundra