Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[VysePresident]

Heya guys! Serious vote time!

VOTE: Aristophanes

His tone is bugging me, and I'm disliking the way he's engaging at present. More on that later.

Lyserg gets Townpoints for that last post. I'm still sorting out Ginko, but I like that they're pushing the game forward.

[VysePresident]

@Prawneater - No thoughts on anything yet?

@Ginko - Is your vote serious, or RVS?

Also, if those you who came here from the above mentioned forum don't mind sharing, I'm curious how much experience you have playing the game?

I've got to wake up in about five hours, so I'll catch you guys again tomorrow.

[VysePresident]

Prod dodging, because I've been getting Life'd to death, and it's five A.M. now.

I'll try to post in the morning, and failing that, evening for sure. Sorry guys. >_<

[VysePresident]

@Ginko - Could I get a quick overview of your reads, particularly on the non-MS people you've played with before?

[VysePresident]

Acryon seems like he's gotten kinda defensive. He also hasn't really done much contributing as of yet. Acryon, other than thinking my tone to be funny, what are your thoughts on the players here? Ginko and Lyserg have said stuff, why not look into them a bit?

This is quite weird to me. For one, I didn’t think I was being defensive at all, but given someone else also mentioned that, I guess I’ll accept that it looked like I was.
Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

Why did this merit a vote?

[VysePresident]

Just as a disclaimer, this is going to be a quick, tired semi-stream of conscious post, since I can't seem to get on here at a reasonable time. I'll try to clarify anything that gets lost in translation tomorrow.

So, I'm finding the pace of the game interesting, particularly on reread. There's been a fair bit of talking from a few people, but I'm noting that a lot of it is in the form of the odd read here and there, and an occasional vote. What I'm not seeing is much in the way of a narrative forming, or any sense that we're being moved along, and it makes me feel like scum are playing hesitantly, by and large. (or are MIA)

At the moment, I'm relatively okay with Lyserg & Metal, and Orcinus & West seem decent as well. I've liked the way they're interacting so far: Lyserg feels like he's genuinely sorting through the game, Metal leans Town for playing Anti-scum, Orcinus is harder for me to gauge but I'm okay with him so far, and West's posts feel more like he's just stating his reads than creating a narrative, for lack of a better term.

Acryon & Ginko are bugging me a little at present, but I'm going to hold off on this until I've had a chance to sleep & gauge responses from them. I also really want to hear from Prawn & Lalandra, along with whoever replaces farstefen & Gliffe. (Sorry to see you go. )

I'm still not thrilled with Ari. His early posts bugged me because he seemed to be more inclined to banter than engage, and more importantly, when he did engage, it seemed more directed at creating suspicion than sorting through the game. That said, I'm not sure he's my first choice anymore.

Catch you guys tomorrow, with any luck at all.

[VysePresident]

I'd really like to hear more from Young, Vyse and prawn.

I'll get to this tonight. Life's not quite so overwhelming, and I've already caught up with the other games I'm playing, so it should be easy enough.

Sorry for being such a mess up to this point.

[VysePresident]

So, I've spent several hours trying to sort through this game, and it's six A.M., so I'm just going to start throwing down my notes and letting you guys pick through them.

-First off, I'm finding the constant player meta tells & conversation to be mostly empty noise, and it's making it painfully difficult for me to sort through for something I can use. I feel like I'm trying to follow a book without having a clue who the characters are, or why they're relevant. Basically, it's like trying to read Robert Jordan.

Seriously though, I'd really appreciate it if we could either tone this stuff down, or at least explain it in a way that's easier to follow for those of us who have no clue what you're talking about. (Also, if somebody could post a game to skim through that you've all (or at least mostly) played together, that'd be really cool.)

Also, please keep in mind that line breaks are an eye's best friend. Paragraph walls aren't.

[VysePresident]

Anyway, down to business.

VOTE: Ginko

--I'm not really sure about my Ari read at this point. I still dislike his early play, but his more recent content is so far afield of what I'd expected from him that I'm second-guessing my ability to read him. He's not a terrible lynch, but I'm leaning towards one of Ginko or Acryon at the moment, for reasons I'll hit in a second. Prawn isn't great, but there's not a lot to go on, and my read on Lalendra is pretty meh at this point. I'd probably put them both lower on my list than Ari.

--So, the thing that's bugging me the most about Ginko is that I gather both heads have played a number of games with most of you guys, and I'd have expected them to be on top of the mess I'm seeing here as Town. We're stuck in a morass of text-walls being hurled at each other, with very little purpose or effect that I can see.

Correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I feel like they're in the best position to be sorting through the game, and I don't like that they're not actively doing so. There's a bit of Townish noise, but it doesn't really seem to lead anywhere. I'd really, really like to see some more content from you guys. It wouldn't be too hard to get me to shift my vote at this point.

--I dislike Acryon's 121 - I'm not really seeing the defensiveness people were talking about, but I do dislike the way he puts his vote on Ari. His reasoning is weak, and feels more like an excuse. His response implying that he was pressuring is thin.

On the other hand, there are a few posts of his I like, mostly from when it feels like he's sorting through the game. Consider this me taking note of a bad gut read that I really need to sort through.

--I'll analyze the Lalandra case & wagon in the morning. I'm literally falling asleep at my computer right now.

[VysePresident]

[float=][/float]Actually, since I can do this really quickly.

@Lyserg - Regarding me calling Metal "Anti Scum". -- In short, the posts talking about how he didn't want to be lynched seemed like a blatanly counterproductive thing for scum to say. It translates into a weak Null-Town read. Basically, I'm not really seeing much in the way of direction or positioning from his posts, which tends towards being a good sign.

(By direction, I mean that he doesn't seem to be trying to lead us anywhere with his posts. By positioning, I mean things like playing safe and trying to avoid notice, or trying to create a narrative for Town to follow.)

Hopefully that was understandable. It's late, and I'm brain dead, so that's it for me for now. More tomorrow.

[VysePresident]

It's a weak vote, yes. To steal a line from somebody, I feel like they're engaging less than they're capable of. (My understanding being that both have played here

It's not hard yet because I'm not confident in how well I've been reading this game to date. I got ambushed by Life in a moderately annoying way, and it's throwing me off my normal, semi-obsessive style. (I'm aiming to test for my second-degree black belt, and the requirements just got raised, plus I'm going to have to work enough hours to pay for everything) I think I can clear up enough time to give the game the attention it deserves, but if I can't do that within the next couple of days, I'll sub out.

@Ginko - I'd actually like to get your thoughts on Acryon specifically, please. Also, did you ever elaborate on who the 'real suspect' you mentioned earlier was?

@Farside - The Acryon invitation is open to you too.

[VysePresident]

Answering this because it's quick & easy.

@Lyserg - Ah, thanks for letting me know about the link. I missed it while I was skimming. I don't suppose you guys have a way to look at ISO's on your homesite?

So, this is going to be bare bones, but in short, I'm using 'Direction' as sort of a quick, go-to phrase for a few things I tend to find scummy.

Basically, one thing I've noticed is that you can generally figure out a person's goals by reading between the lines just a little. When I refer to Metal's "Lack of direction", what I mean is that I don't feel he's pushing an agenda, or positioning himself to avoid negative attention, or playing opportunistically. I feel like he's legitimately scumhunting, and doesn't really seem to have much in the way of the awareness that scum typically have. That's only so much of a tell in this game, but it feels more like weak Town play at this point. Hence the iffy Town read.

This sort of extends to my take on the majority of the game. I'm not seeing much in the way of an agenda beyond Town play coming from West, Metal, & Lyserg. I'd kinda like to see Orc posting more.

Also, yeah, Town players should definitely also be pushing in directions of their own, but the trick is reading the difference between the two.

Heading to bed now.

[VysePresident]

So, I tried to do a hard reset on my reads, and ended up spending the whole night looking over the darn thread off and on. I'm going to make this quick, and I'll expand in the morning, particularly in regards to Acryon.

@D2'ers - Can I get one of you guys to link me to a TownAri game & a Scum one? I just want to skim through them to get a better feel for his thought process.

@Farside - I'd really like why you're Townreading Acryon? I'm actually really disliking what I'm seeing from him, and it's not just 121. (Thoughts on that being appreciated.) Oh, and I appreciate you pointing me to the ISO button, but I was actually asking about the D2 forum. Sorry for the confusion.

-I'm liking Ginko a little better on reread. I made a few assumptions based on skimreading and some early impressions, but I actually like some of the things they've said recently. :/ Call this Null, maybe leaning Town. Not really seeing the West case at this point, though.

VOTE: Acryon

Catch you guys in the morning.

[VysePresident]

None of those read Town to me. :/

Here he is the first to point on Ari strange wording about asking for players he is town reading
He also calls out metal in that post.

That post is actually one of his first to seriously catch my attention. The reasoning for his vote feels disingenuous - Ari's question was not inherently scummy - and I'm noting it came at a time when the wagon was just gaining steam. It feels more like an excuse than a reason, and I'm iffy on his follow up posts. I kinda liked 151 at first glance, when I was looking over his ISO, but it doesn't quite mesh with how I'm reading him back in 121.

Then there's the Lalendra wagon, which fits closer to my original read. I think he's baiting a Newbie for Newbish mistakes. These posts in particular stand out to me - 173, 207, & 214. I actually wouldn't have minded them if he was building off of pressure, but he's indicated it's serious multiple times now, and it doesn't feel like a natural read. There's little analysis and no real growth to it.

Basically, Acryon feels like a relatively level-headed Scum player who's more focused on getting a lynch than sorting through the game.

[VysePresident]

liked his response to Orc reads as not pushing on shit taking a stand back from something that can be read either way.

Scum don't avoid dumb arguments?

goes on when pushed no wishy washy stance on that.

Non alignment indicative. It's kind of the obvious answer.

follow up question shows he is reading post and getting to the meat of what players are not saying.

Better, but Scum can scumhunt in this game, and this bit wouldn't be particularly impressive even in a normal game.

[VysePresident]

Oh, not at all. I think Lal is almost definitely scum. Hence why my vote hasn't moved.

Why? I'm not seeing it.

I pointed out a couple posts in my thoughts on you. Could you elaborate on your thoughts process here? (173, 207, 214)

Why is this scummy, and not just Newbish mistakes?

[VysePresident]

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

I think it's more likely that he's just pushing on a perceived weakness. Otherwise, I'm in agreement.

I also like points iii) & iv) in 297.

[VysePresident]

@Mod - Could you please note replacements on Page 1? Thanks in advance!

[VysePresident]

I'm still reading but I saw lyse comment about my town read so I'm going to explain a bit of what I see more times then not come from scum.

Scum tend to be very uninvolved in scum hunting aspect. Typically weak cases, weak reasons, somewhat low under the radar. When you have 2 scum groups to content with this practice tends to be more prevalent because as scum they worry about being killed by the other team if they are too town.
So when I read lal as scum and let's say she is scum acryon looks more town pushing against scum and maybe targeted for said push.
Second thing for my town read is no one has really put any case against him as why he is scummy.


*Gets off soap box to finish read.*

Typically, yes, but I know from personal experience as scum, and

that it's actually really freaking easy to

Also, Werewolves don't have

[VysePresident]

...I hate the touchpad on my laptop so much. Half a sec for the full post.

[VysePresident]

Sorry, got distracted on a thread walk.

Anyway, that tell can be a useful starting point, but it's not the be-all, end-all, particularly against more experienced players. Acryon doesn't read like potential Newb-Scum to me. He feels level-headed enough not to get tripped up so easily by the little stuff.

I'm primarily looking at his manner of scumhunting, and it feels really shallow. There've been a couple of things I've liked about his play individually. 173 actually feels pretty decent, outside of context, and I liked the post where he questioned your thoughts on Lal's play just being Newbish.

However, the majority of it has been pushing weak 'tells', like Lal's Ari vote. It feels like an unnatural read on his part - I've played with enough newbies on my other site to feel that freaking out over a wagon isn't particularly alignment indicative, and I think Acryon threw out the possibility of Newbish play too quickly.

Also, I'm noting his focus is primarily accusatory when he's left to his own devices, and that's a serious red flag for me as well.

The problem with the Lalendra case is that I'm not really sure what she's supposed to be doing that's scummy. She's tripping over herself somewhat, but it doesn't seem to add up to anything yet. I'm not Townreading her by any stretch, but nothing's actually pinging hard enough for me to be particularly interested, either. As far as I'm concerned, it's borderline to being a blind lynch.

Also, as a counterpoint to scum fearing a NK, I'll point out there's a team in this game that needs only fear a lynch.

[VysePresident]

Sorry, got distracted on a thread walk.

Anyway, that tell can be a useful starting point, but it's not the be-all, end-all, particularly against more experienced players. Acryon doesn't read like potential Newb-Scum to me. He feels level-headed enough not to get tripped up so easily by the little stuff.

I'm primarily looking at his manner of scumhunting, and it feels really shallow. There've been a couple of things I've liked about his play individually. 173 actually feels pretty decent, outside of context, and I liked the post where he questioned your thoughts on Lal's play just being Newbish.

However, the majority of it has been pushing weak 'tells', like Lal's Ari vote. It feels like an unnatural read on his part - I've played with enough newbies on my other site to feel that freaking out over a wagon isn't particularly alignment indicative, and I think Acryon threw out the possibility of Newbish play too quickly.

Also, I'm noting his focus is primarily accusatory when he's left to his own devices, and that's a serious red flag for me as well.

The problem with the Lalendra case is that I'm not really sure what she's supposed to be doing that's scummy. She's tripping over herself somewhat, but it doesn't seem to add up to anything yet. I'm not Townreading her by any stretch, but nothing's actually pinging hard enough for me to be particularly interested, either. As far as I'm concerned, it's borderline to being a blind lynch.

Also, as a counterpoint to scum fearing a NK, I'll point out there's a team in this game that needs only fear a lynch.

[VysePresident]

>_<

Sorry for the doublepost.

[VysePresident]

Oh, not at all. I think Lal is almost definitely scum. Hence why my vote hasn't moved.

Why? I'm not seeing it.

I pointed out a couple posts in my thoughts on you. Could you elaborate on your thoughts process here? (173, 207, 214)

Why is this scummy, and not just Newbish mistakes?

I mean my thought process seems like it was pretty straight-forward, no? These aren't newbie mistakes; they are pretty blatant contradictions. One of her primary criticisms of Lyserg was that he put Ari close to a lynch (he didn't), and she put Ari to L-1. So the reasons for suspecting people are BS, which also makes sense why she chose to comment on my joke post but nothing else. The move to voting Ari was unnatural.

Then let me explain my take on those posts.

Spoiler: Post 173: Opening points on Lal

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

I just find it odd that simply a naked vote from Ari would be enough to convince you the slot is scum. And not only that, but convince you enough to put him to L-1, something you literally

just

scrutinized Lyserg for, and Lyserg's vote was only the 3rd on Ari, whereas your's is the sixth!

UNVOTE:
Because I want to avoid a quickhammer.

And also
VOTE: Lalendra

I'd actually like this post, just by itself. You open with a couple questions/challenges for her to field, and while I find the case itself lackluster, I could see it being used to gauge her better.

On a side note, why were you worried about a quickhammer?

Spoiler: 207

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

That still seems like an odd thing to comment on, when there are other things I've done that are much more worthy of comments. It just seems like textbook faux-commentary.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Really? Do you have examples in games to back this up? I don't think this is the case at all, and it also seems like extreme wishful thinking to believe that we caught scum so hard this early that they are just giving up.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

Well, again, putting someone to L-4 isn't exactly putting them "close to lynch."

The vote just doesn't seem natural to me, and it doesn't seem to line up with your posting. I think you're discounting the complexity of the game.

Rarely is scum caught with extreme confidence, especially this early "We got em boys!" just doesn't really happen that often in my experience. Putting too much confidence in it leading up to the lynch just causes confirmation bias to drive it the rest of the way, which is terrible for town.

This is where I get iffy on you again. (FutureVyse Note: By *again*, I'm referring to my initial take on 121) You're pushing a line here, but now it feels more like salesmanship than analysis, and your own vote feels unnatural for me. Lal's vote is a contradiction, but I feel more like it's coming from a disorganized and slightly reactionary thought process than being inherently scummy. Walk me through it, if you disagree.

it doesn't seem like an inherently scummy one to me. At the moment, it feels more like her thought process is disorganized and slightly reactionary.

As a pressure case, still okay-ish, but then we have 214, and you make it clear your read is serious.

Spoiler: 214

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6528792

This is setting off all kinds of alarm bells, because it still feels like a poor reason to vote. Like, here's my own thought process. I've seen a lot of newbie play back on my homesite. Her vote appears to be the product of a disorganized and slightly reactionary thought process.

I can kinda see where this might be a difference of opinion, but I don't like that you're so set on this little thing. I'd appreciate you going a little deeper into your thought process, if you can, because I already felt like you were selling a weak case before, and I'm not sure I believe that you're really sorting through Lal.

[VysePresident]

I didn't notice that only one faction had a kill.

How can you say lal's done nothing scummy.

I didn't. I'd struggle to name anything off the top of my head, but there's some stuff pinging me on a gut level. Mostly, it's a difference in thought process I can't quite account for.

That's not my ideal lynch.

You point to level head and expectations but none of that is om scum it's an oppinion.

Isn't everything? I think too many people expect scum to be glaringly obvious, and miss the more subtle hints and tells that would be more useful. I'm not pretending to be perfect, but at the same time, I'm at a loss as to why you're dismissing this so easily.

When I'm scumhunting, I'm looking for narratives, for a sense of 'direction' from a player that fits with what I'd expect from scum. It's not so much what people say that's most interesting, as what's between the lines.

Acryon is passing decent in a few individual post, but by and large, I'm noting his scumhunting consists of taking an accusatory tone towards glaring mistakes, rather than building off a natural thought process. Even accounting for the possibility that I'm just missing said thought process, I'm not seeing much in the way of him sorting Lal out, either. (Or Ari, actually.) It feels like he's looking for an opening, rather than sorting out Town/Scum.

This is a constant pattern, even behind some decent-ish play on his part. (I think I noted this in my response to acryon.) He's navigating the thread fairly decently, and can engage when he wants to, but it doesn't actually work against the reason I'm scumreading him. It seems more likely that he's simply aware of what to avoid.

Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

[VysePresident]

sure. VOTE: lal

I mean you don't need to feel pressured into voting there, but it was just something I expected following that post.

What are your thoughts on that vote?

[VysePresident]

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

I think it's more likely that he's just pushing on a perceived weakness. Otherwise, I'm in agreement.

I also like points iii) & iv) in 297.

How is it exactly that I'm playing purely reactionary again? Given I was the person who first started the push on Lal. And iv is also terrible and I've explained why. You can try to find reasons to call me scum, but these aren't even close to being legitimate.

I don't think you're *purely* reactionary. You seem to engage easily when there's blood in the water. You don't seem to do much beyond that except when challenged/questioned.

iv)Interests me because it feels like it wasn't really a factor in your Lal read, though I'm iffier on this one.

Basically, Acryon feels like a relatively level-headed Scum player who's more focused on getting a lynch than sorting through the game.

I mean we have one day left and no lynching is pretty bad. And certainly getting lynches is a big part of sorting the game out. You lynch the people you think are scum/wolves and rinse and repeat until you win.

To rephrase, I think your play indicates that you're looking for a lynch more than you're looking for a scum lynch. Theory's sound, play isn't, basically.

[VysePresident]

I think I've addressed everything. Hit me with a list if not.

Now bed.

[VysePresident]

@Prawn - Quick question, are you an alt?

[VysePresident]

More thoughts in a bit. I strongly disagree with Ginko's Werewolf assessment, but I'll get to that later. Looking forward to Prawn's response.

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/

[VysePresident]

3. I agree that Seer should look at

Acryon not really seeing Young

. Acryon's switch from Ari to Lal right at the beginning of that wagon pretty much cleared him in my books unless the seer tells me otherwise.
- Johnny

Did you accidentally switch the names around in that first sentence? This bit isn't making much sense, taken straight.

[VysePresident]

I'm currently going over the thread. I'll try to have a post done by tonight, but prod-dodging just in case.

[VysePresident]

Just curious, who all's played with TTH before?

[VysePresident]

At risk of being a hypocrite, I'd really like to get some content from YYR soon.

[VysePresident]

Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

More in a few hours.

[VysePresident]

Or not. Forgot about this one until just now, and it's six A.M. again. Heading to bed.

[VysePresident]

Prod dodging again.

I have a lot of time tomorrow, and while I'm going to be splitting it between multiple games, I should be able to get some real content up here.

[VysePresident]

Prod-dodging because I accidentally lied.

Sorry guys. I have the gist of what I want to say down, but it's ridiculously late, and everything's in note form. >_<

[VysePresident]

Welp, slowly working my way back into the game for real.

[VysePresident]

I'll just go into skim mode tonight. Close reading is always a bad idea.

I'd actually be really curious what your thoughts are on the game in general. Why Metal & Acryon? What are your thoughts on the group as a whole?

[VysePresident]

feeling a bit paranoid about acryon with people still scum reading him. I also had to take a step back and asked him about west and lal because I found west asking lal questions.
Lal didn't interact with west, which west called out and lal used west case as a good point. None of that equal scum together.
I found it a dishonest response from acryon not to note those points about lal and west when I asked him.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm get that you're scumreading Acryon, but I'm not sure why.

[VysePresident]

@Lyserg - Can I get a short summary of your reads on each player, please? I'm having a difficult time telling where exactly you are at any point. Like, aim for maybe one or two sentences, please, and we'll work from there.

[VysePresident]

@vyse: I don't look at join dates typically. Lal read lost to me and bad from the word go. West has read more indepth thought process. I have played with someone who never played online mafia and came across as west did. No one really said anything about ari but the more he post the more he reads newb. He may not be, it's not obvious and I asked acryon for reaction purposes and he failed.

Not sure if this was meant to be addressed at me, but I'm curious, why is the Lal read suddenly lost to you now?

How did Acryon fail the reaction test?

I'm having a hard time following your thought process.

[VysePresident]

Metal's is the best as far as I've read.
But acryon's is cool too!

Not comfortable with this post.

Looking forward to you explaining your reads.

[VysePresident]

My knowledge of my alignment is gonna trump whatever my interpretation of Lal's meta is. I happen to know that Lal and I were not on a team, and one of the benefits of that knowledge is that I don't have to consider at all whether Lal's attempts to use my reasoning against Ari was wolf buddying wolf. I'm not gonna bring up "reasons to disagree with farside's points" that I know to be untrue, whether or not they are confirmed to be untrue to the rest of the game.

That's where my head is about that. I get that it might not be helpful to you, as you don't know my alignment and might see all of this as lies, but whatever.

This hurts my head to read.

More in a moment.

What do you think about it?

[VysePresident]

@Metal - Could I get your thoughts on Ari, both his early-game and current play? I'd actually appreciate you diving into this a little bit, even if it's not fully worked out yet.

[VysePresident]

Vyse: I actually didn't even realize a good chunk of his content has been about me until I went into his ISO, but it doesn't really look like he is scumhunting. He also started off the game with an Ari vote and then backed off for reasons I'm not sure were made clear. Like, what does this post mean, actually?

I'm still not thrilled with Ari. His early posts bugged me because he seemed to be more inclined to banter than engage, and more importantly, when he did engage, it seemed more directed at creating suspicion than sorting through the game. That said, I'm not sure he's my first choice anymore.

Especially given no follow up or actual questioning of Ari. For someone who is unsure on a slot, he sure isn't asking any questions or appearing to actually figure him out.

This is going to be more of a quick overview of my read than an explanation, just FYI. It's late.

Short version is that I didn't like Ari's early posts. They seemed inclined to banter over providing substance, except when he could throw easy suspicion. (See: Acryon, Gliffe, & bandwagons.) I also didn't buy some of his explanations for various bits of his early play.

His later play shook that read, because it didn't continue to follow that route. Instead, he was weird, and off the wall, and it forced me to rethink my initial thoughts on him. Currently, I'm against lynching him, because his thought process as a whole makes more sense with the acknowledgement in 252. It explains why I felt he was making his points up, without being able to scumread him for it, when I looked back.

Also, you'll note I'm kinda sucking all around at the moment. I'll ask questions as I get the chance sort through my thoughts enough to have something relevant. I don't have the same grasp on this game as I'd like.

[VysePresident]

I'm just going to address West real quick in a spoilered quote wall.

Spoiler: Stuff

It's weird to me that Vyse, during the last section of yesterday, was much more "anti-Lalendralynch" than "pro-acyronlynch." He fights pretty hard against farside's assertion that Lal is scum, and then kinda just weakly probes and nudges at acryon. Not sure how to read this, and wondering if that's just a part of Vyse's meta.

What did I do that made me look like my priority was defending Lal? I understand getting some flak here, but I don't see how my push on acryon was 'weak probing.' It was pretty darn serious on my end. :/

It was this:

Yes, this is a guess. It's an educated guess, based on an observation, and yes, opinion. I could be wrong. There's a reason why I'm still trying to talk with him. But I think I'm right, and I'm willing to take a chance on it.

...?

Why does that bit stand out? This wasn't my case. You can find that starting in 320 and in long form from 360 down.

wrote:
Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

There's something really funny to me about "this is what I think about the nightkill. Screw that guy that brought up his thoughts about the nightkill."

It's more like "This is what I think on the NK. Ginko's thoughts bother me because it feels like he's reaching, and he seemed to be pushing it relatively hard compared to what I felt it merited. Maybe Wolf?"

It's a light suspicion at this point. I don't think that's unfair.

@West: It feels too shy from you that you commented on Vyse anti-lalwagon attitude but didn't at least mention the natural conclusion of them both maybe being scumbuddies and said you didn't know how to read that instead. I imagined maybe you had some big doubt about that.

The doubt was from me not knowing if being cautious like that is a part of Vyse's meta. Since then, he addressed me and that post without really addressing that portion of it, making me more confident that it's not a meta thing.

I generally don't bother with self-meta. It's kind of a WIFOM game, and I generally don't need to push for a Townread on myself. My analysis tends to take care of that for me, in most cases. Also, this game is falling painfully short of my Town (&Scum) Meta. I'm not really getting as good a grasp on the game as I'd like. #RedundantComplaints

I will say that I like to analyze narratives that form in the game to find scum. I try to build a very strong understanding of the undercurrents in a game, and compare others' analysis to my own, factoring in my understanding of their personality along with my take on the game to find scum.That's probably my favorite way to search for scum, actually, and the most effective.

The weird thing about this game is that there wasn't really much in the way of narratives early on, with the exception of Acryon, who's Ari & Lal cases didn't feel genuine to me. Now I'm not sure. :/ I still don't like his play, but Prawn and Jordan jumped on that wagon pretty easily, and I'm a bit leery of them, given my take on the early game is that there was a lot of Town back & forth going on.

Like, if you want self-meta, then I can't be scum because I wouldn't be addressing you with a wall right now. There are easier ways to avoid the attention. I'd be answering you in a way that turned the conversation back outwards. (Honestly, I should probably be doing that now anyway, but I'm curious to see your thoughts.) #WIFOM

[VysePresident]

I'll quit ranting for now. I'm getting too tired to think straight, and this thread is already starting to look like my ISO. I'll try to have a reads list sometime later, life permitting.

I'd really, really like to see some content from Prawn & Jordan. I'd really like to get a feel for our quieter slots.

[VysePresident]

Prod acknowledged. I'll have a post up during the weekend. I've dropped one of my games, and trimmed a few other things out of my schedule, so hopefully that should free up enough time for me to actually be useful.

Sorry

again

, guys. Please believe this is just as frustrating for me as you all.

[VysePresident]

Vyse

Spoiler: Dis you really spend hours on this game?

So, I've spent several hours trying to sort through this game

I don't think so, because I've put in less than two thus far.

[VysePresident]

I'll try to be on tonight to offer stuff.

I'll try to actually follow through this time. >_<

[VysePresident]

I'm sorry guys, this just isn't working out. I keep trying to get on here and post something useful, but I've been devoting far too much time to Mafia, and that's consistently kept me from getting the sleep I need, and now it's starting to seriously effect both my health and my life in general. In the meantime, I'm not even being useful in this game.

@Mod - Please replace me.

Sorry to do this.

[VysePresident]

Also, I just want to add that I enjoyed playing with you all, and I really hope I can play with you guys again, when I have the time to give the game the dedication it deserves. Y'all seem like a pretty cool bunch.

[VysePresident]

GG scum.

Y'know, my reads were pretty terrible this game. :/

Sorry for replacing out, guys. I had fun playing with you all, but I over committed myself, and basically reached the point where I didn't have any reads worth a darn at all. The breaking point was when I fell asleep on my millionth attempt at reading the thread & we no-lynched.

I hope I get a chance to play with you all again sometime, when I can focus on the game. Thanks for modding, HB, and I'm sorry I couldn't stick around.

P.S. West, your old avatar was better.