Open 45 - Baby Too Much Scum - Game Over! before 506

[Jennar]

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

please quit avoiding my questions..arent you voting for me for the same reason I am voting for menme? If not, please explain why your vote if different.

Its not dodging a question. See it more too bust laughing at you to bother. You voted for Mneme for jumping on some about the random voting but supplied no reason other then his were bad. You come out looking like scum eager for a kill. Townies won't be too worried on day one about a lynch or not. The only night kill we have to fear is the SK.

You are far to eager for a lynch to be town.

-J

[curiouskarmadog]

Its not dodging a question. See it more too bust laughing at you to bother. You voted for Mneme for jumping on some about the random voting but supplied no reason other then his were bad. You come out looking like scum eager for a kill. Townies won't be too worried on day one about a lynch or not. The only night kill we have to fear is the SK.

You are far to eager for a lynch to be town.

-J

so maybe you just skimming through this game but let me put up my reasoning up again so you see it.

this looks like a lame excuse "to place a vote for no damn reason"...are you still in the random stage? or was this a serious vote?

now lets look at what you said

You come and Mneme come off looking like scum who are edging for anything to vote on just to try and get a lynch off.

-J

seems like we are saying the same thing…however, you go a step further and say I come out look like I want a quick kill…why do you feel it necessary to misrepresent me? You fail to mention the fact that I removed my vote from someone that had 2 votes and placed it on someone who didn’t have any votes on them. “eager for a lynch”?..hardly. I removed my vote and placed a vote on mneme to get conversation started (and because I felt her play was strange) Also I note that you have not said anything about flyinghawk, who placed a second vote on mneme. That didn’t look scummy or eager for a quick lynch?…interesting.

unvote
vote Jennar

For poorly misrepresenting me, avoiding questions, and being a hypocrite.

Jennar, how do you feel about flyinghawk? How am I eager for a lynch when I removed my vote off someone who had 2 votes to someone who had none?

[Jennar]

You come and Mneme come off looking like scum who are edging for anything to vote on just to try and get a lynch off.

-J

seems like we are saying the same thing…however, you go a step further and say I come out look like I want a quick kill…why do you feel it necessary to misrepresent me?

I'm not. You gave an out of left field reasoning for your vote. You have nothing to go on a vote for Mneme on other then she went after someone who called the random stage to be useless. then you later say that you did it to spark up some activity. Which is it? You seem to be doing alot of backpeddleing now.

You fail to mention the fact that I removed my vote from someone that had 2 votes and placed it on someone who didn’t have any votes on them. “eager for a lynch”?..hardly.

You moved your vote from someone who had nothing suspicious wise going for them to someone with a more abstract vote. It would be easier to draw attention to Mneme for the way she posted then your previous target that had nothing said about them for a page. You are fishing for a bandwagon.

I removed my vote and placed a vote on mneme to get conversation started (and because I felt her play was strange) Also I note that you have not said anything about flyinghawk, who placed a second vote on mneme. That didn’t look scummy or eager for a quick lynch?…interesting.

It does but your attitude is more suspicious. Here you are trying to divert attention away from you. If you are town you need to put down the shovel as you look more and more like scum each passing second. Why are you so defensive?

unvote
vote Jennar

For poorly misrepresenting me, avoiding questions, and being a hypocrite.

Jennar, how do you feel about flyinghawk? How am I eager for a lynch when I removed my vote off someone who had 2 votes to someone who had none?

Flyinghawk gave more reasons and logic for his change in vote then you did. Where his vote makes sense based upon what Mneme said yours does not. If Mneme is suspicious for voting for someone just to vote for someone then you are more suspicious for voting for someone cus they voted.

My reasoning for voting for you is backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture. You voted for someone with little reason and got called on it. You suddenly spring to the offensive against me because I did. You attempt to divert attention to Flyinghawk to try and get out of heat. And go so far as to vote for me in an attempt to turn it around.

And if Flyinghawk is so scummy from throwing down with a second vote then why did you vote for me instead of him? If he is as scummy as you claim then what makes me that much worse?

A reason beyond "I'm voting for you cus you voted for me." would be nice. That is all you can seem to come up with though.

-J

[mneme]

1. Mneme is a 'he'. See the icon.

2. I missed ckillor's unvote between ckd's "feeling old and tired" unvote and bird111. 3 sequential unvotes make a mneme confused. I'd have voted for ckillor otherwise. (but not ckd, since his explaination was more reasonable). This wasn't a random vote, but was a fairly low-seriousness vote -- there is something scummy in seeing the "random stage" as a joke rather than the launching off point of more serious bandwagons, but not that much. Regardless, it got a reaction and -was- more or less a philosophy vote, so

unvote

.

3. As I mentioned, the difference between scum in town in this game is very similar to that in many other games, despite the lack of night kill. Town want to identify scum and lynch them; scum want to secure a lynch of anyone outside their group, or failing that, be seen as town. They'd like to lynch the SK, but then, all but one of us would.

4. I'm fascinated by the hot ckd/Jennar action, but not going to commit on one side or the other with a vote yet. ckd's looking better than Jennar, though.

[mneme]

Oh, re "play your own game" -- Yes, this is a team game, but it's one that relies on everyone playing actively rather than asking others what to do. If people just follow and trust blindly, the town will typically lose -- badly.

[curiouskarmadog]

You gave an out of left field reasoning for your vote. You have nothing to go on a vote for Mneme on other then she went after someone who called the random stage to be useless. then you later say that you did it to spark up some activity. Which is it? You seem to be doing alot of backpeddleing now.

Who is backpedaling now? You yourself said you thought mneme looked suspicious, why is it ok for you to say that mneme is suspicious but it is not ok for me. There was little reasoning, because (wake up) we are on page 5. Everyone has little reasoning. Do I want to lynch her based on that? No. Did I even call her scum? No. Did I place a vote, and ask questions to get conversation started, yes. Did it? You be the judge.

You moved your vote from someone who had nothing suspicious wise going for them to someone with a more abstract vote. It would be easier to draw attention to Mneme for the way she posted then your previous target that had nothing said about them for a page. You are fishing for a bandwagon.

Am I? What are you doing then?

It does but your attitude is more suspicious. Here you are trying to divert attention away from you. If you are town you need to put down the shovel as you look more and more like scum each passing second. Why are you so defensive?

(laughing). Oh, the “why are you so defensive” maneuver. I call you out for your hypocritical vote, I aggressively attack the obvious flaws in your case, and ask you questions…then you label that has “defensive”. I think you have mistaken offensive as defensive.

Flyinghawk gave more reasons and logic for his change in vote then you did. Where his vote makes sense based upon what Mneme said yours does not. If Mneme is suspicious for voting for someone just to vote for someone then you are more suspicious for voting for someone cus they voted.

OK, now we are getting to the meat and potatoes. “Flyinghawk gave more reasons and logic for his change in vote then you did.”

My stated reason:

this looks like a lame excuse "to place a vote for no damn reason"...are you still in the random stage? or was this a serious vote?

flyinghawk’s reason:

Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post? This seems very very odd to me.

Vote:Mneme

He provided more logic? How?

And your stated reason for leaving your random vote on me was “backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture.”

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

Again more logic? Does anyone else see what I am seeing here?

My reasoning for voting for you is backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture. You voted for someone with little reason and got called on it. You suddenly spring to the offensive against me because I did. You attempt to divert attention to Flyinghawk to try and get out of heat. And go so far as to vote for me in an attempt to turn it around.

So you honestly are saying this is not flimsy conjecture? Honestly?
If I am suspicious for my vote, you should be just as suspicious. You don’t see the logic circle of crap on your end?


You didn’t call me out on anything, there was little reason for my vote…we were at page 5, there is little reason for every vote on the board. I find you scummy, because you are trying to push a crap logic case and you are having problems admitting when you are wrong.

And if Flyinghawk is so scummy from throwing down with a second vote then why did you vote for me instead of him? If he is as scummy as you claim then what makes me that much worse?

A reason beyond "I'm voting for you cus you voted for me." would be nice. That is all you can seem to come up with though.

-J

AGAIN you misrepresent me, I never gave my opinion on flyinghawk. Please quote where I claimed flyinghawk was scummy. Why are you putting words in my mouth? I thought it was interesting that you thought I was scummy but he wasn’t. Please show me where he provided more logic for a vote.

Also please explain this to me.. Given your “logic” you don’t see flyinghawk’s play as eager for a quick lynch.

SO let me get this straight. I remove my vote from someone who has two votes on them to someone who has none, because of a mneme’s odd play. In the process I ask her questions to get conversation started.

Flyinghawk, place a second vote on someone and doesn’t ask any questions to get conversation going

This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?

[edion0]

damn

um, i'm not sure if i'd call that rape, but Jennar, you definitely got shredded dude. i'd add to it, but ckd got everything as far as i can tell.

vote: Jennar

personal reasons for it: way too aggressive of a case with such little ground to go on. if you're just an aggressive player, admit that you were wrong and the vote will be gone...though i will be watching your actions closely from here on out.

[joost]

And if Flyinghawk is so scummy from throwing down with a second vote then why did you vote for me instead of him? If he is as scummy as you claim then what makes me that much worse?

A reason beyond "I'm voting for you cus you voted for me." would be nice. That is all you can seem to come up with though.

-J

AGAIN you misrepresent me, I never gave my opinion on flyinghawk. Please quote where I claimed flyinghawk was scummy. Why are you putting words in my mouth? I thought it was interesting that you thought I was scummy but he wasn’t. Please show me where he provided more logic for a vote.

Also please explain this to me.. Given your “logic” you don’t see flyinghawk’s play as eager for a quick lynch.

SO let me get this straight. I remove my vote from someone who has two votes on them to someone who has none, because of a mneme’s odd play. In the process I ask her questions to get conversation started.

Flyinghawk, place a second vote on someone and doesn’t ask any questions to get conversation going

This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?

Out of the whole debate this is what stands out to me most. I think CKD is right here and Jennar did twist his words. Which is a scum tell in my book. So

FoS: Jennar

I won't vote for him yet as he already has 2 votes against him.

However Flyinghawk did ask questions to get the conversation going and CKD even quoted them in his post.

Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post?

Furthermore I think Edion0's vote is pure bandwagoning. It's very easy for scum to watch two people argue, then pick a side and vote for the other guy.

IGMEOY

[mneme]

Actually, Edion0's vote is very scummy on multiple levels -- the "yeah, I'm voting for you, but if you put up a half-assed defense, I'll unvote" feels very much like a bus to me.

[curiouskarmadog]

However Flyinghawk did ask questions to get the conversation going and CKD even quoted them in his post.

Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post?

you are right I was in the heat of the arguement and stand corrected..but even with that, I still wonder why flyhawk is less eager for a lynch than myself (in jennar's eyes) and still want the question answered.

[joost]

you are right I was in the heat of the arguement and stand corrected..but even with that, I still wonder why flyhawk is less eager for a lynch than myself (in jennar's eyes) and still want the question answered.

I'm interested in that too.

[bird1111]

2. I missed ckillor's unvote between ckd's "feeling old and tired" unvote and bird1111. 3 sequential unvotes make a mneme confused. I'd have voted for ckillor otherwise. (but not ckd, since his explaination was more reasonable). This wasn't a random vote, but was a fairly low-seriousness vote -- there is something scummy in seeing the "random stage" as a joke rather than the launching off point of more serious bandwagons, but not that much. Regardless, it got a reaction and -was- more or less a philosophy vote, so unvote.

Why would ckillor have gotten your vote had you seen his out of curiousity? There was a slight difference in wording, but other than that our behavior was similar.

3. As I mentioned, the difference between scum in town in this game is very similar to that in many other games, despite the lack of night kill. Town want to identify scum and lynch them; scum want to secure a lynch of anyone outside their group, or failing that, be seen as town. They'd like to lynch the SK, but then, all but one of us would.

I generally agree with this, but the mafia do not want the SK lynched day 1, as that means the mafia needs to get 3 (if neither are found) or 5 (if one is found) misslynches. While with the SK alive, they can win by Day 3 at the latest if neither of them dies.

[bird1111]

Mod, could you add the quotation marks to the messed up quote tag? Thanks

Vote: edion

He chose curiouskarmadog supposedly because curious had shredded Jennar's arguments (which I dissagree with) and because he felt Jennar had been too aggressive (which I also dissagree with), and yet is ready to unvote if Jennar is a little less aggressive. He seems to be choosing a side without commiting himself, which is a scumtell.

[mneme]

Why would ckillor have gotten your vote had you seen his out of curiousity? There was a slight difference in wording, but other than that our behavior was similar.

He did it first. Following can be a scumtell, but so is doing something scummy first
(actually, he didn't do it first, but I'd already let similar sentiment pass on previous pages, since I didn't notice and was talking about other stuff; only really noticed that on a re-read too).

I generally agree with this, but the mafia do not want the SK lynched day 1, as that means the mafia needs to get 3 (if neither are found) or 5 (if one is found) misslynches. While with the SK alive, they can win by Day 3 at the latest if neither of them dies.

I'm not going to do all the math for this right now, but this depends greatly on perceived odds of a mislynch (which is very dependent on average and mafia skill) and odds of the SK killing a mafia member (assuming the SK is choosing randomly or even avoiding mafia prospects (an interesting question, since the SK loses ties), 1/3 on night 1 (1/6 if we lynch mafia), 1/2 on night 2 (1/4 if a mafia has previously been killed)).

Oh, and in terms of practicing what I preach...

vote: edion0

[curiouskarmadog]

Mod, could you add the quotation marks to the messed up quote tag? Thanks

Vote: edion

He chose curiouskarmadog supposedly because curious had shredded Jennar's arguments (which I dissagree with) and because he felt Jennar had been too aggressive (which I also dissagree with), and yet is ready to unvote if Jennar is a little less aggressive. He seems to be choosing a side without commiting himself, which is a scumtell.

Understand your reason for the vote on edion..

do not understand if you think i anwered and retorted to Jennar's arguements, you feel like Jennar was justified? Seems like you have an opinion, interested to see what it is...

[edion0]

wow. this changed fast...

sorry if i seem scummy, but what i said was what i honestly felt about ckd and jennar's argument there. by the point i had posted, jennar's case was pretty much gone and was refusing to admit it.

as far as my "bandwagoning" is concerned, i had left my browser on the bottom portion of page 4, hit F5 to refresh it, saw the final posts on there, and was writing a post out when i noticed that we had moved to page 5. i stopped my post, read page 5, and couldn't find any other textual evidence for my case that ckd hadn't already given. so, rather than make an entire post restating almost everything that ckd had, i sipmly said that i agreed with him. i stand by my feeling that jennar was just being too aggressive, and i will agree to disagree on if he was too aggressive or not (and yes, i realize that ckd was being fairly aggressive as well).

perhaps i'm too lenient w/ people about removing my votes, but at the moment i was still playing this game as though the mafia had a NK- ie, a mislynch is incredibly bad. , so i don't have to be so worried about removing votes at the slightest defense. i understand that ANY mislynch is a bad thing, but this isn't a 6 player game where a D1 mislynch could spell the end for the Town.

unvote

i guess i'll just sit here and watch for a few more days until i see something truly scummy to come by and hope not to get labeled as wagoning when i put my vote on, since agreeing with someone is now a dead-giveaway that you're scum.

[Jennar]

(laughing). Oh, the “why are you so defensive” maneuver. I call you out for your hypocritical vote, I aggressively attack the obvious flaws in your case, and ask you questions…then you label that has “defensive”. I think you have mistaken offensive as defensive.

And yet you still fail to address the main points of my comments. You fail to point out anything having to do with you trying to redirect to flyinghawk. In fact you deliberately avoid the comment.

this looks like a lame excuse "to place a vote for no damn reason"...are you still in the random stage? or was this a serious vote?

Hey look comments out of context. Lets look at what Mneme said.

joost: Play your own game.

Personally? I'm happy to punish people who treat the random stage as a joke.

unvote
vote: bird1111

Unvoting your random just because the game seems to be stalling seems to be some wierd mutation of "unvote for no damn reason".

Morover, the entire attidude -- that there's some hard and fast stage between "random" and "exiting the random stage" when random votes are discounted is both artificial and seems to miss the point of random voting in the first place.

Now you voted for him because you felt it was a lame excuse but then go to ask him if he is still in the random stage or if it is a serious vote. He gave reasoning for his vote against Bird and you wonder if he is just random voting? You are fishing for excuses to go after people. You have now jumped to me because I presented myself as a target.

flyinghawk’s reason:

Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post? This seems very very odd to me.

Vote:Mneme

He provided more logic? How?

He gave reasoning for his vote. From what I see he finds the reasoning behind Mneme's vote to be odd. See this is providing logic as to why he felt it was odd. You don't even go that far. In your typical fashion for the last few pages you don't actually answer points made against you but instead just redirect and sk more questions.

And your stated reason for leaving your random vote on me was “backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture.”

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

Again more logic? Does anyone else see what I am seeing here?

You thing I have a logical fallacy? You are a walking talking debate fallacy. First non-sequitor arguments against Mneme and not Begging the question arguments against me.

You didn’t call me out on anything, there was little reason for my vote…we were at page 5, there is little reason for every vote on the board. I find you scummy, because you are trying to push a crap logic case and you are having problems admitting when you are wrong.

I stated the point of weakeness in your logic then and now and all you can do is fire back with rhetoric on how far into the game we are. You now find me scummy because I came at you for it. And I now see more then ever that my vote should sit right where it is. You are by far acting more scummy then anyone here.

SO let me get this straight. I remove my vote from someone who has two votes on them to someone who has none, because of a mneme’s odd play. In the process I ask her questions to get conversation started.

You asked questions of Mneme that could be answered if you actually read the post. And as I stated before no one was following the votes on your previous target. you went after someone new to try shift attention to them. And it worked with flyinghawk doing the same. You are very gun-ho for a lynch.

This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?

He if you actually read my post instead of just picking out the parts you like then you might have actually caught the answer to this. I do feel flyinghawk was scummy but not as scummy covered as you.

And hey where are your thoughts on flyinghawk, mneme and Edion? You bob and weave through everything without actually bringing anything new to the table which is a flat out scum tell.

-Jennar

[Jennar]

personal reasons for it: way too aggressive of a case with such little ground to go on. if you're just an aggressive player, admit that you were wrong and the vote will be gone...though i will be watching your actions closely from here on out.

Yes I play offensively when I feel that someone who has a scum tell to their post is not being called on it. And I do not think that I am wrong with CKD so I will not retract it.

-J

[Flyinghawk]

Actually Jennar, while I appreciate that you feel I had a good defense backing up my vote on Mneme, I now consider the vote to be a little rash of me. Looking back, Mneme's attack of Bird1111 could easily have been a mistake, and he's played well enough that I believe him when he did say it was a blunder.

And I wasn't 'eagerly' trying to get a quick lynch off, that would be hypocritical of my even earlier post stating that quick-lynching is a bad idea and a scum-tell.

So:

Unvote, FOS:Jennar

Jennar's attack seems too aggressive in comparison to the information she had to back herself up on. I don't want to vote her because this might put her too close to a lynch, but she is a pretty prime scum candidate.

[Flyinghawk]

ooh, sorry, one more quick thing.


Mod, you promiseda vote count at the top of each page. I'd appreciate a vote count soon, as there has been a sudden flurry of activity. thanks!

[curiouskarmadog]

Jen, have a retort coming don’t have the time right now...again you must be skimming over my post or deliberately missing points..

Interested to hear other’s comments as well, seems like people for the most part are just sitting back and letting Jen and I bump heads and go around in circles, waiting to see who will come out on top.

[joost]

Well your head bumping is pretty interesting. I do however have a question for Jennar:

This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?

He if you actually read my post instead of just picking out the parts you like then you might have actually caught the answer to this. I do feel flyinghawk was scummy but not as scummy covered as you.

Where exactly did you say or imply that you thought Flyinghawk was scummy? I've reread your posts and I can't detect where this was implied. In fact it seems like you said Flyinghawk wasn't scummy because he gave a reason for his vote. And does that mean you think CKD and Flyinghawk are scumbuddies?

PS. It seems to me that there are only males in this game. I'm not so sure about Flyinghawk, but I think he/she will confirm their gender soon. If we start referring to eachother as she and her I'll get confused....

[Jennar]

Jen, have a retort coming don’t have the time right now...again you must be skimming over my post or deliberately missing points..

Interested to hear other’s comments as well, seems like people for the most part are just sitting back and letting Jen and I bump heads and go around in circles, waiting to see who will come out on top.

Honestly we'll be at this all day because I feel that you are doing the same to me. All you seem to do is pick the parts that you like to criticize and don't actually read what I am saying.

But whatever. flame on.

-J

[joost]

Are you going to answer my question at all, Jennar?

[theopor_COD]

Shameless filler.