433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[superstring91]

EBWODP: AH, he actually didn't delete that, it was in a post further up.

Um, not to be annoying, but could you clarify what 'EBWODP' means? I've not heard that one before.

its a typo of EBWOP
which means Edit By Way Of Post. so you can make an edit in the game, because we dont have the option of editing our posts

I'm not going to comment at my role at this time. I see no convincing reason to claim, so I'm not going to give the scum any role information.

I'm not buying that. You wrote:

Okay, I'm retracting Dodgy's claim.

Objectively, he probably claimed to help the scum nail the doctor at night.

Now, I suppose you can say that that meant 'to out the real doctor' or 'to get himself/his replacement nightkilled' but I just can't see how a retraction of a genuine claim here helps the town. I'd be all for lynching CES right now, in the absence of a power role claim. If you are a power role other than doctor, please claim and request protection. If you are town, you're either setting yourself up for a NK, or possibly worse, the scum playing WIFOM with you until the cows come home.

i agree with dasq that LAL is a good rule of thumb, but thats just it. its

a rule of thumb

it doesnt apply in every case. and [assuming dodgy/CES is lying] i dont know that it does here.

right now fonz is topping my scumlist.
it seems like he is being very opportunistic. someone replaces into a game where his predecessor made a claim in a hissy fit. he retracts the claim. fonz accuses him of lying, and pushes for LAL.

thorgot is next.
hes not giving many opinions.

id like to hear more from eletrair and kilm before i comment about them.
the same goes for CES

[Thestatusquo]

Mod interjection: EBWODP is not a typo, it means "edit by way of double post."

[The Fonz]

right now fonz is topping my scumlist.
it seems like he is being very opportunistic. someone replaces into a game where his predecessor made a claim in a hissy fit. he retracts the claim. fonz accuses him of lying, and pushes for LAL.

That's a total misrepresentation. I'm not accusing CES of lying. I'm saying either CES or Dodgy

has to be.

You just don't retract a true claim. Therefore, LAL applies. Let me ask you, what are you going to do if CES doesn't get lynched or nightkilled, and then says, alright, I was the doc. Do you lynch him then? What about the next day?

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: And it's not a rule of thumb. That's why it's called lynch

all

liars, and not, in general lynch liars.

[Eletriar]

Okay, from what I see, here's the situation.

It looks to me that we should not lynch CES at the moment, but wait and see if he's NKed. I understand the things brought, but at the moment it looks like by our discussion we are merely giving scum clues. I agree with Dasquian here - woudn't we feel silly if we lynched the doc? I vote we move on to other people and see what the morning looks like.

[The Fonz]

But he's marked himself out as a likely powerrole anyway. So if the scum don't kill him overnight, it's WIFOM central. I don't advocate lynching him today unless he claims townie. But I do think some kind of claim is absolutely in the interests of the town.

[Sweenytodd]

Okay in response to The Fonz who said...

You said you thought it was reckless, yet that you thought southpaw was in no danger. If it's not dangerous, how is it reckless? Oh look, Dasquian just recklessly put someone who might be town in no danger whatsoever!

I thought it was clear that I was advocating caution because i felt the pace at which 4 votes had piled up un-nerved me. I urged caution and nothing came of it so yes, in actuality i suppose Southpaw was in no danger of a lynch but I could easily have seen a 5th vote and maybe a 6th coming which would have been even more reckless and yes I suppose you could argue that scum wouldn't use that obvious head on tactic, I will even concede it would be strange, but I have seen opportunistic scum hammer early and try to talk their way out of it in the past, so rather than have that as a possibility i thought a Lynch -3 to be too fast. That being said, it isn't of any more consequence...

The issue at hand appears to be Dodgy's meltdown. So in the same post that Dodgy claims Doc, he also claims

I set this f***ing site up, co-wrote the "Wikki" that people keep refering to and thought that I would be in a game with players that had the intelligence to read between the lines.

I don't know, evil genius/site creator... So a bogus doc claim in the same post is out of the question? I think CES did exactly what he was supposed to do, told us that the claim ws worthless and if we want to LAL, we'd have to find Dodgy and string him up.

So Fonz... There are a couple of possibilities with CES:

1. Dodgy's claim was accurate and CES is lying, and we lynch our Doc.

2. Dodgy's claim was BS and CES is telling the truth and CES is Town and we mislynch D1.

3. Dodgy's claim was BS and CES is telling the truth and CES is Mafia and we lynch scum D1.

We do not want to discuss this further, role-fishing is baaad.... CES has retracted a bogus claim and if he acts scummy we can discuss that. I do not like trying to out a Doc D1 Fonz... that is bad play... In fact I am going to

Vote: The Fonz

for blatant Rolefishing and trying to push a lynch of CES for bogus reasoning. Lets not try and help the mafia with their NKs okay?

[The Fonz]

I'm not fishing, i'm outright asking for a claim. It's the only way we'll know where we stand. Your list of possibilities is of no relevance whatsoever to the task at hand, and is therefore hugely scummy.

Lets not try and help the mafia with their NKs okay?

FFS, if he's not mafia, the scum already know he's likely powerrole! If he's not a powerrole, he's lying anyway and still needs lynching.

[Sweenytodd]

I'm sorry for the double post but I wanted to respond to this...

But he's marked himself out as a likely powerrole anyway. So if the scum don't kill him overnight, it's WIFOM central. I don't advocate lynching him today unless he claims townie. But I do think some kind of claim is absolutely in the interests of the town.

So you don't want to lynch him unless he claims vanilla... Yet you want him to claim... So if he IS the doc u want him to out himself? Or if he isn't the doc you want to lynch him? This is not a good move.

[The Fonz]

If he is the doc, he's ALREADY outed himself!

[Sweenytodd]

MOD EDIT.

Southpaw: 1 (thorgot)
gorckat: 1 ( superstring)
The fonz:2 (CES, sweenytod.)
thorgot: 1 (dasq)

Oh I get it now....

FFS, if he's not mafia, the scum already know he's likely powerrole! If he's not a powerrole, he's lying anyway and still needs lynching.

If he is a power role as Dodgy claimed then we ought to lynch him or out him? And if he is not a power role and simply trying to salvage the poor game he replaced into we ought to lynch him to save the Mafia a NK they could use for someone... God this discussion is frustrating... The point is not to out all of the targets for the mafia it is to FIND the mafia. There is no claim he could make to appease you nor should he... If he acts scummy, THEN we can lynch him but so far you are holding him accountable for a predacessor's insane actions as if this drama has ANYTHING to do with the game. Dodgy messed up... He shouldn't have claimed... That said CES definitely shouldn't claim.

If he is the doc, he's ALREADY outed himself!

If Dodgy's claim is in any way believeable... Which it isn't... And there is no good that can come from lynching CES in that position... You popose that CES is the Doc, who retracted a claim, and thus should be lynched if he claims vanilla... So best case scenario... We lose our Doc N1, bad play Dodgy. Otherwise, CES claims vanilla and we lynch him he turns up Doc.... Bad Play Fonz.... If CES claims vanilla and turns up mafia that would be one thing but I don't see it yet.

[Eletriar]

So... we're back to this. If he's mafia, he'll not die N1. If he isn't then either mafia will kill him to make things easier, or leave him alive, in what point d2 is going to be interesting at best. That's pretty much what's already been said. So I say we go after the other people who look suspicious and see what happens, but I don't know if that's a smart play or not.

[superstring91]

fonz, i really dont think you should be pushing on CES so hard right now.
we've driven the discussion about him into the ground.
dodgy was an ass.
we should not lynch CES just because of what dodgy has done. we need to see how he acts.
that being said, i will stick by my scumlist and

vote:fonz

[pete d]

I'm not going to comment at my role at this time. I see no convincing reason to claim, so I'm not going to give the scum any role information.

I agree with this 100%. I don't like how the Fonz has gone after CES so rabidly.

CES isn't very suspicious, but he did retract a doctor claim, and being "definitely town" is a death warrant.

The Fonz, for attacking Dodgy, isn't very suspicious to me, because he is drawing too much attention.

Gorckat isn't very suspicious to me, because he is so inactive.

Dasquian, I find you somewhat suspicious, because you are that perfect level between Gorckat and The Fonz, being active and helpful but not offending anybody.

This doesn't really make sense to me at all, particularly the last point. It sounds to me like someone who isn't paying much attention to the game.

I'm feeling a bit suspicious of superstring and fonzy. I know i said i bought Fonz as town before, but his recent behaviour has made me a bit more apprehensive of him. superstring seems overaggressive to me, its more of a gut feeling on my part, he seems a bit opportunistic to me. Eletrair and dom:inc both seem to be fence-sitting a bit (dom:inc hasn't commented for a while though).

[dom:inc]

Its interesting to see that everyone thinks CES shouldn't claim yet Fonz is still pushing for one.

You

can

retract a claim without denying it... CES has done just that. I think Dodgy's claim, in light of the situation at the time, cannot be trusted. There are too many possibilities (draw fire, mafia trying to out doc, is the doc, yada yada) for us to know whether it was more likely true or false, so why ponder on it?

Dodgy and CES are the same person. One of them lied.

How can they be one person, yet

one

of them lied, that makes them two people playing the same role. We have no proof yet to even remotely suggest which of them lied and so can't just lynch CES cos he's the one playing the role now. And anyway... CES hasn't stated whether or not he is or isn't the doc yet so hasn't even made a statement that could be true or false. He just retracted the claim, it could still go either way.

Sure having a player out there with a role we're unsure on isn't very good but then, we're unsure on everyone's roles thus far so why push for a lynch on someone that's just joined the game. You may have been getting somewhere with dodgy (no longer in the game remember) but CES is new to the game. We can't hold Dodgy's actions against him and imo, we've just lost a couple of pages. Nothing to q_q over.

FOS: The Fonz

(opening sentance)

[Dasquian]

Hmm. I am going to have to

FOS: The Fonz

simply because I don't think he's done good town play re: CES. That said, I think there is a very good chance he

thinks

he has been doing good town play, and overall I would not say I get a major scummy vibe from him - if he is mafia, he's certainly going for lynch kill with no regards for subtlety (usual WIFOM disclaimers).

Because my gut tells me Fonzy is an aggressive townie, mild FOS on the people who voted him. I think he's wrong, not evil, but it's a great excuse to bandwagon him.

And I still want to hear more from thorgot Essentially, my belief on D1 is that with a veritable smorgasbord of potential lynchees, we should pick the ones who don't post as much over the ones who make themselves a target, unless we have some good degree of certainty. It gives us a stronger end-game situation and it's sound in the metagame too.

[The Fonz]

MOD EDIT.

Southpaw: 1 (thorgot)
gorckat: 1 ( superstring)
The fonz:2 (CES, sweenytod.)
thorgot: 1 (dasq)

Oh I get it now....

FFS, if he's not mafia, the scum already know he's likely powerrole! If he's not a powerrole, he's lying anyway and still needs lynching.

If he is a power role as Dodgy claimed then we ought to lynch him or out him? And if he is not a power role and simply trying to salvage the poor game he replaced into we ought to lynch him to save the Mafia a NK they could use for someone... God this discussion is frustrating... The point is not to out all of the targets for the mafia it is to FIND the mafia. There is no claim he could make to appease you nor should he... If he acts scummy, THEN we can lynch him but so far you are holding him accountable for a predacessor's insane actions as if this drama has ANYTHING to do with the game. Dodgy messed up... He shouldn't have claimed... That said CES definitely shouldn't claim.

This is just flat out, and obvious misrepresentation.

If he is a power role as Dodgy claimed then we ought to lynch him or out him?

Nope, if he is a power role we definitely shouldn't lynch him. As I said before, we're not going to out him because he has already outed himself.

And if he is not a power role and simply trying to salvage the poor game he replaced into we ought to lynch him to save the Mafia a NK they could use for someone.

Do you not understand the concept of lynch all liars?

If he is the doc, he's ALREADY outed himself!

If Dodgy's claim is in any way believeable... Which it isn't... And there is no good that can come from lynching CES in that position...

You popose that CES is the Doc, who retracted a claim, and thus should be lynched if he claims vanilla... So best case scenario... We lose our Doc N1, bad play Dodgy. Otherwise, CES claims vanilla and we lynch him he turns up Doc.... Bad Play Fonz.... If CES claims vanilla and turns up mafia that would be one thing but I don't see it yet.

1. I do not propose that he is doc who retracted a claim, I propose that as of right now, I don't know what the hell he is, but the mafia probably do.

I wouldn't even put it past dodgy that he might have been a different powerrole. Think about it, if he's trying to screw the town, and hence me, what better than to get one powerrole lynched and the other outed day one? The best case scenario right now for town is him dying night one.

If he survives, we're in the same confusing position we are in now. Like i said before, WIFOM central.

2. Why the hell would he claim vanilla, then turn up doc? That's ridiculous craplogic.

Vote: Sweenytodd

Its interesting to see that everyone thinks CES shouldn't claim yet Fonz is still pushing for one.

That's because you're wrong, the continuing confusion hurts the town, and I'm doing my damnedest to demonstrate

why

.

You

can

retract a claim without denying it... CES has done just that. I think Dodgy's claim, in light of the situation at the time, cannot be trusted. There are too many possibilities (draw fire, mafia trying to out doc, is the doc, yada yada) for us to know whether it was more likely true or false, so why ponder on it?

Let's look at those three possibilities.

a) Is exactly the situation for which LAL was devised, should lynch him.
b) Explain why we shouldn't lynch him in this case?
c) Shouldn't lynch him.

Dodgy and CES are the same person. One of them lied.

How can they be one person, yet

one

of them lied, that makes them two people playing the same role. We have no proof yet to even remotely suggest which of them lied and so can't just lynch CES cos he's the one playing the role now.

But... they are playing the same role! For game purposes, they

are

the same person. You also say you don't know 'which one of them lied.' That implies that one of them definitely lied. Which completely contradicts what you said in the first paragraph.

Sure having a player out there with a role we're unsure on isn't very good but then, we're unsure on everyone's roles thus far so why push for a lynch on someone that's just joined the game.

No, we have no idea of anyone else's role. We can see Dodgy might well be the doc, and more importantly, so can the mafia. So he's a likely nightkill candidate already (therefore if he is powerrole, best to claim, so the town have as much info as the scum do) and him not dying will leave us in the same, confused, position again tomorrow.

You may have been getting somewhere with dodgy (no longer in the game remember) but CES is new to the game. We can't hold Dodgy's actions against him and imo, we've just lost a couple of pages. Nothing to q_q over.

FOS: The Fonz

(opening sentance)

This is unsettling. In general, you have to hold people to the actions of the predecessor. If I were replaced right now, would you give my replacement a free pass on everything I said and did? Even when you find me so scummy?

[Southpaw]

Hmm. I am going to have to

FOS: The Fonz

simply because I don't think he's done good town play re: CES. That said, I think there is a very good chance he

thinks

he has been doing good town play, and overall I would not say I get a major scummy vibe from him - if he is mafia, he's certainly going for lynch kill with no regards for subtlety (usual WIFOM disclaimers).

I have to agree with Das. I find it unlikely that scum would keep pushing an issue in which most of the town is against. It's generally bad policy for mafia to do anything that puts the spotlight on them.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP, to get out what I'm actually saying re: Sweenytodd.

Oh I get it now....

If he is a power role as Dodgy claimed then we ought to lynch him or out him? And if he is not a power role and simply trying to salvage the poor game he replaced into we ought to lynch him to save the Mafia a NK they could use for someone... God this discussion is frustrating... The point is not to out all of the targets for the mafia it is to FIND the mafia. There is no claim he could make to appease you nor should he... If he acts scummy, THEN we can lynch him but so far you are holding him accountable for a predacessor's insane actions as if this drama has ANYTHING to do with the game. Dodgy messed up... He shouldn't have claimed... That said CES definitely shouldn't claim.

This is just flat out, and obvious misrepresentation.

If he is a power role as Dodgy claimed then we ought to lynch him or out him?

Nope, if he is a power role we definitely shouldn't lynch him. As I said before, we're not going to out him because he has already outed himself.

And if he is not a power role and simply trying to salvage the poor game he replaced into we ought to lynch him to save the Mafia a NK they could use for someone.

Do you not understand the concept of lynch all liars?

If he is the doc, he's ALREADY outed himself!

If Dodgy's claim is in any way believeable... Which it isn't... And there is no good that can come from lynching CES in that position...

You popose that CES is the Doc, who retracted a claim, and thus should be lynched if he claims vanilla... So best case scenario... We lose our Doc N1, bad play Dodgy. Otherwise, CES claims vanilla and we lynch him he turns up Doc.... Bad Play Fonz.... If CES claims vanilla and turns up mafia that would be one thing but I don't see it yet.

1. I do not propose that he is doc who retracted a claim, I propose that as of right now, I don't know what the hell he is, but the mafia probably do.

I wouldn't even put it past dodgy that he might have been a different powerrole. Think about it, if he's trying to screw the town, and hence me, what better than to get one powerrole lynched and the other outed day one? The best case scenario right now for town is him dying night one.

If he survives, we're in the same confusing position we are in now. Like i said before, WIFOM central.

2. Why the hell would he claim vanilla, then turn up doc? That's ridiculous craplogic.

Vote: Sweenytodd

[kilmenator]

I agree that if he is not scum he will not die tonight, but I also like the "lynch all liars rule" if he is now claiming vanilla, he is basically playing head games with us. He is either the doc, or scum, or townie, but being that he already claimed doc, I find it extremely scummy that the claim was retracted. I would like to second the request for a true role claim, I do agree that we should not lynch someone just because of their predecessor. More comment later.

[The Fonz]

He's not claiming vanilla, atm he's not claiming anything. I just think if he genuinely is a power role, the cat's out the bag for the scum anyway, so not claiming only serves to confuse the town.

[Southpaw]

What good would having him claim do anyways? If he says he's mafia, he's dead. If he says he's a townie, he's also dead. So no matter what he is, if he's forced into a roleclaim he'll just say that he's the doctor.

[The Fonz]

What good would having him claim do anyways? If he says he's mafia, he's dead. If he says he's a townie, he's also dead. So no matter what he is, if he's forced into a roleclaim he'll just say that he's the doctor.

Untrue. If he's town, saving his own skin should take a back seat to giving the town accurate information, so getting lynched ought to be preferable to surviving by lying. He should claim truthfully, even if it means his own lynching. If he's scum, of course, it makes sense to claim doc, but it also makes sense to claim that if

he actually is

the doc. Vanilla is the only claim that ought to get him lynched, but he should still claim VT if that is what he, in fact, is.

[gorckat]

I'm alive- Net at work was done since last Wednesday and my home life has been crazy (b-day party with my daughter, best friend bought a house and is moving- loads of drama).

I'll try to catch up today.

[Dasquian]

Untrue. If he's town, saving his own skin should take a back seat to giving the town accurate information, so getting lynched ought to be preferable to surviving by lying.

But, he hasn't lied, by your own admission he's not claiming anything. Your original stance was pursuing a contradiction between Dodgy and CES, but you seem to have backed down from that?

You haven't demonstrated that it's in the town's interests for him to claim at this point; sure, it's been a talking point, but we don't benefit from him claiming.

- If he's scum, he'll claim doctor anyway and we (presumably) won't lynch him.
- If he is the doctor, the mafia probably knew that as soon as Dodgy claimed.
- If he's not the doctor, the mafia probably assumed he was the doctor as soon as Dodgy claimed.

Why does it help

the town

for CES to clarify which? The only benefit I can see to getting a definite answer is for the scum, who know whether or not to target him, and if he

isn't

the doctor, this discussion is putting stress on the real doctor, once again, making things easier for the scum.

Tomorrow, he'll either be dead and we'll be glad we didn't waste a lynch on him, or he'll be alive and we will be in no different a situation to if CES had not retracted the claim - as soon as anyone claims doctor, the mafia have the opportunity for WIFOM shenanigans, the claim retraction makes no odds to that.


gorckat - good to have you back, I'm happy to accept lack of access as an excuse if you leap headfirst into the discussion