433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 5:31 am

Post by Eletriar »

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Okay, I'm retracting Dodgy's claim.

Objectively, he probably claimed to help the scum nail the doctor at night.

I need a Vote Count.

Also, I found Dasquian's fourth vote quite pro-town. It's a move that helps the town yet draws suspicion.
Fascinating. First with Dodgy's getting really nervous with just two votes on him, and then the claim not only being retracted, but...

CES, I have a few questions on this. Do you mean to admit that he did so to try to out the doc? Basically, that almost sounds like an admission, in that case.

It could also mean that the claim holds...
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 5:42 am

Post by Dasquian »

I'm not sure this one is worth pushing. Dodgy claimed doc way earlier than he should've done if he were the doc, but he might have been scum doing something wacky, or a non-doc townie doing something wacky. Given the confusion surrounding the whole event, it's very possible that the mafia might make a bad call on him tonight.

If that's the case, we probably don't stand to benefit by trying to dissect the claim-and-retraction unless we think Dodgy/CES could be scum. Currently I'm leaning towards townie who lost the thread.

I'm happy with my vote on thorgot - it seemed a somewhat "minimum effort" contribution with a hint of OMGUS.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 5:50 am

Post by Eletriar »

I suppose, but that does not mean that it didn't strike me as a little odd. How is it town to claim doc if you're not, though? Sorry if I'm asking something dumb, but in this case I'm well and truly confused.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 5:56 am

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Because if the real doc understands what you're doing and you don't get lynched first, you can draw mafia fire and buy the townie power roles more time.

I don't think it's a great tactic, but what matters is what Dodgy thought. And as I say, I don't think it's in our interests discussing unless there's a serious motion to lynch CES.
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 6:05 am

Post by Eletriar »

Oh.. right. I hadn't thought of that... anyway, moving on.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 6:15 am

Post by The Fonz »

Dasquian wrote:Because if the real doc understands what you're doing and you don't get lynched first, you can draw mafia fire and buy the townie power roles more time.

I don't think it's a great tactic, but what matters is what Dodgy thought. And as I say, I don't think it's in our interests discussing unless there's a serious motion to lynch CES.
There
has
to be a serious motion to lynch CES, though. LynchAllLiars. I don't know about anyone else, but I would like to see CES genuinely claim here.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 6:42 am

Post by Dasquian »

Has CES actually lied, though? Or has he simply retracted Dodgy's claim which was made at a point where his motives as a
player
, let alone his role in the game, are dubious?

I agree that if CES is now explicitly claiming not-doc, then either he or Dodgy must have lied and that that needs to be talked about.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 7:04 am

Post by The Fonz »

Dodgy and CES are the same person. One of them lied. On a metagame level, anyone caught lying ought to be lynched. However, it's also intuitively right not to lynch a claimed powerrole on day one. Hence, CES should claim.

Actually, this might be a good discussion point. Who think CES should and should not claim, and why?
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 7:08 am

Post by Dasquian »

I think not, for the reasons above. I also don't think CES has lied - I read it as retracting the claim without denying or confirming it.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 7:13 am

Post by The Fonz »

You don't retract a claim without denying it. (At least, I don't think so... CES?) And one or other has lied, and let me remind you, they are the same person. Anyone else?
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 7:37 am

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I also think he shouldn't claim. I don't see any reason why Dodgy would do what he did if he was a regular townie. The only 2 options are that Dodgy really was the doctor or that he was mafia.

I say that we assume for now that ECS is the doctor. If, for some reason he survives the night, we can look into whether he might actually be mafia.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 7:49 am

Post by The Fonz »

Southpaw wrote:I also think he shouldn't claim. I don't see any reason why Dodgy would do what he did if he was a regular townie. The only 2 options are that Dodgy really was the doctor or that he was mafia.

I say that we assume for now that ECS is the doctor. If, for some reason he survives the night, we can look into whether he might actually be mafia.
If he really were the doc, why would he retract the claim?
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 7:54 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

I'm not going to comment at my role at this time. I see no convincing reason to claim, so I'm not going to give the scum any role information.
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!

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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 8:47 am

Post by The Fonz »

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:I'm not going to comment at my role at this time. I see no convincing reason to claim, so I'm not going to give the scum any role information.
I'm not buying that. You wrote:
Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Okay, I'm retracting Dodgy's claim.

Objectively, he probably claimed to help the scum nail the doctor at night.
Now, I suppose you can say that that meant 'to out the real doctor' or 'to get himself/his replacement nightkilled' but I just can't see how a retraction of a genuine claim here helps the town. I'd be all for lynching CES right now, in the absence of a power role claim. If you are a power role other than doctor, please claim and request protection. If you are town, you're either setting yourself up for a NK, or possibly worse, the scum playing WIFOM with you until the cows come home.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 9:03 am

Post by Dasquian »

Or: CES replaces into a doctor role whose predecessor outed himself in the middle of a hissy-fit. The best thing for the town is for the doctor
not
to be outed, and, fortunately, Dodgy was being erratic enough for this to be believable - a quiet retraction of the claim leaves a question mark over the original claim.

If Dodgy lied, there's no guarantee he did so because he was anti-town - at that point, he seemed more anti-
Fonz
than anything, and generally annoyed at the world in general. Who knows why he might claim a power role - he was claiming a
lot
of stuff, I reckon he would've claimed to have invented electricity given another page or two. If Dodgy told the truth, however, there are valid pro-town reasons for CES to go back on Dodgy's word and turn the cricumstances of Dodgy's replacement to his, and the town's, advantage.

LynchAllLiars is a good rule of thumb, but it doesn't mean that townies can't manage the truth in beneficial ways. I agree that this does little for CES' credibility, though.

You can correctly assume from the above that I thought Dodgy was genuine when he claimed doc and CES was doing damage control. The fact I could very well be wrong is why I don't want to pry; let's make the mafia make that call, we can always come back to him tomorrow if he is still around.

Today, I reckon we're much better off looking at the lurkers. thorgot tops my list, but I'm also getting slightly scummy vibes from kilmenator and, less so in the last page, Eletriar. We will also need to properly consider gorckat at some point, depending on whether he becomes replaced or reappears, and when.
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 9:21 am

Post by superstring91 »

Eletriar wrote:
The Fonz wrote:EBWODP: AH, he actually didn't delete that, it was in a post further up.
Um, not to be annoying, but could you clarify what 'EBWODP' means? I've not heard that one before.
its a typo of EBWOP
which means Edit By Way Of Post. so you can make an edit in the game, because we dont have the option of editing our posts


The Fonz wrote:
Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:I'm not going to comment at my role at this time. I see no convincing reason to claim, so I'm not going to give the scum any role information.
I'm not buying that. You wrote:
Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Okay, I'm retracting Dodgy's claim.

Objectively, he probably claimed to help the scum nail the doctor at night.
Now, I suppose you can say that that meant 'to out the real doctor' or 'to get himself/his replacement nightkilled' but I just can't see how a retraction of a genuine claim here helps the town. I'd be all for lynching CES right now, in the absence of a power role claim. If you are a power role other than doctor, please claim and request protection. If you are town, you're either setting yourself up for a NK, or possibly worse, the scum playing WIFOM with you until the cows come home.
i agree with dasq that LAL is a good rule of thumb, but thats just it. its
a rule of thumb
it doesnt apply in every case. and [assuming dodgy/CES is lying] i dont know that it does here.

right now fonz is topping my scumlist.
it seems like he is being very opportunistic. someone replaces into a game where his predecessor made a claim in a hissy fit. he retracts the claim. fonz accuses him of lying, and pushes for LAL.

thorgot is next.
hes not giving many opinions.

id like to hear more from eletrair and kilm before i comment about them.
the same goes for CES
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 9:47 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

Mod interjection: EBWODP is not a typo, it means "edit by way of double post."
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 10:09 am

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superstring91 wrote: right now fonz is topping my scumlist.
it seems like he is being very opportunistic. someone replaces into a game where his predecessor made a claim in a hissy fit. he retracts the claim. fonz accuses him of lying, and pushes for LAL.
That's a total misrepresentation. I'm not accusing CES of lying. I'm saying either CES or Dodgy
has to be.
You just don't retract a true claim. Therefore, LAL applies. Let me ask you, what are you going to do if CES doesn't get lynched or nightkilled, and then says, alright, I was the doc. Do you lynch him then? What about the next day?
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 10:15 am

Post by The Fonz »

EBWODP: And it's not a rule of thumb. That's why it's called lynch
all
liars, and not, in general lynch liars.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 10:21 am

Post by Eletriar »

Okay, from what I see, here's the situation.

It looks to me that we should not lynch CES at the moment, but wait and see if he's NKed. I understand the things brought, but at the moment it looks like by our discussion we are merely giving scum clues. I agree with Dasquian here - woudn't we feel silly if we lynched the doc? I vote we move on to other people and see what the morning looks like.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 10:25 am

Post by The Fonz »

But he's marked himself out as a likely powerrole anyway. So if the scum don't kill him overnight, it's WIFOM central. I don't advocate lynching him today unless he claims townie. But I do think some kind of claim is absolutely in the interests of the town.
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 11:20 am

Post by Sweenytodd »

Okay in response to The Fonz who said...
You said you thought it was reckless, yet that you thought southpaw was in no danger. If it's not dangerous, how is it reckless? Oh look, Dasquian just recklessly put someone who might be town in no danger whatsoever!
I thought it was clear that I was advocating caution because i felt the pace at which 4 votes had piled up un-nerved me. I urged caution and nothing came of it so yes, in actuality i suppose Southpaw was in no danger of a lynch but I could easily have seen a 5th vote and maybe a 6th coming which would have been even more reckless and yes I suppose you could argue that scum wouldn't use that obvious head on tactic, I will even concede it would be strange, but I have seen opportunistic scum hammer early and try to talk their way out of it in the past, so rather than have that as a possibility i thought a Lynch -3 to be too fast. That being said, it isn't of any more consequence...

The issue at hand appears to be Dodgy's meltdown. So in the same post that Dodgy claims Doc, he also claims
I set this f***ing site up, co-wrote the "Wikki" that people keep refering to and thought that I would be in a game with players that had the intelligence to read between the lines.
I don't know, evil genius/site creator... So a bogus doc claim in the same post is out of the question? I think CES did exactly what he was supposed to do, told us that the claim ws worthless and if we want to LAL, we'd have to find Dodgy and string him up.

So Fonz... There are a couple of possibilities with CES:

1. Dodgy's claim was accurate and CES is lying, and we lynch our Doc.

2. Dodgy's claim was BS and CES is telling the truth and CES is Town and we mislynch D1.

3. Dodgy's claim was BS and CES is telling the truth and CES is Mafia and we lynch scum D1.

We do not want to discuss this further, role-fishing is baaad.... CES has retracted a bogus claim and if he acts scummy we can discuss that. I do not like trying to out a Doc D1 Fonz... that is bad play... In fact I am going to
Vote: The Fonz
for blatant Rolefishing and trying to push a lynch of CES for bogus reasoning. Lets not try and help the mafia with their NKs okay?
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 11:25 am

Post by The Fonz »

I'm not fishing, i'm outright asking for a claim. It's the only way we'll know where we stand. Your list of possibilities is of no relevance whatsoever to the task at hand, and is therefore hugely scummy.
Lets not try and help the mafia with their NKs okay?
FFS, if he's not mafia, the scum already know he's likely powerrole! If he's not a powerrole, he's lying anyway and still needs lynching.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 11:26 am

Post by Sweenytodd »

I'm sorry for the double post but I wanted to respond to this...
But he's marked himself out as a likely powerrole anyway. So if the scum don't kill him overnight, it's WIFOM central. I don't advocate lynching him today unless he claims townie. But I do think some kind of claim is absolutely in the interests of the town.
So you don't want to lynch him unless he claims vanilla... Yet you want him to claim... So if he IS the doc u want him to out himself? Or if he isn't the doc you want to lynch him? This is not a good move.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 11:28 am

Post by The Fonz »

If he is the doc, he's ALREADY outed himself!

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