Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Kinetic]

Can we not have an entire page or 1-2 line posts. Seriously, the two of you can spend an entire page going on about nothing and make it seem completely useless. I've been thinking about a mass claim and how it might be a good idea for this game. I have an idea that I've been wanting to try since WiH3, but I'm not sure about it... In the mean time, I want everyone else to think about Mass Claim and see if they think it might be a good idea here.

Specifically, claiming why type of role you have, names aren't necessary really, nor are powers. I think if we can split the town a little bit, we might have an easier time finding scum.

[kanyeknowsbest]

how does mass claiming make it easier to find scum?

[kanyeknowsbest]

are you trying to set up scum/town versions of a role in a 1v1? whats to stop scum from just not claiming it an instead getting all of our prs big rage targets on their backs?

[Kinetic]

are you trying to set up scum/town versions of a role in a 1v1? whats to stop scum from just not claiming it an instead getting all of our prs big rage targets on their backs?

There is something... but I don't want to reveal it right now. In fact, I'd have to wait until after such a claim to reveal my main idea, because revealing it before the claim would stop the scum from "messing up", but that's why I want you to THINK about it. Think about the bad ideas for this plan because I'm not sure where they are yet. And if enough concerns are brought up, I'll think about what I think might help and whether it would be worth going through with such an idea and whether I want to push to try to convince others.

[Tierce]

Hell to Tierce, Hell to Tierce: please attempt reading the words again.

Sorry too busy watching ponies to actually notice stuff like this. >.> You can be Town. Proceed.


My latest experience with D1 massclaim was a massive game stall and general demotivation throughout the rest of the game. I'm against it if all that there is for it is ~vague benefits of vagueness~.

[Kinetic]

Hell to Tierce, Hell to Tierce: please attempt reading the words again.

Sorry too busy watching ponies to actually notice stuff like this. >.> You can be Town. Proceed.


My latest experience with D1 massclaim was a massive game stall and general demotivation throughout the rest of the game. I'm against it if all that there is for it is ~vague benefits of vagueness~.

Its not a vague benefit that I'm thinking about, its a very specific course of action following the claim, but I don't want to go into details just yet.

[quadz08]

To be honest, I think it's far too likely that Flay has included

fancy new things

in this edition of the game to make massclaim a wise idea. Scum almost certainly has powers beyond what has been typically been included in WiH games in the past, now that Rage can be used by anyone.

Re: one-liners. If I'm not posting fairly regularly as other people speak in-thread, my gameplay quality falls drastically. So, I'm going to be posting frequently. Sorry. *shrug*

[Kinetic]

To be honest, I think it's far too likely that Flay has included

fancy new things

in this edition of the game to make massclaim a wise idea. Scum almost certainly has powers beyond what has been typically been included in WiH games in the past, now that Rage can be used by anyone.

Re: one-liners. If I'm not posting fairly regularly as other people speak in-thread, my gameplay quality falls drastically. So, I'm going to be posting frequently. Sorry. *shrug*

I'm worried more about moderation. That last page was brutal to read though because it had virtually nothing but a MattP/Quadz circlejerk. Posting frequently is good, but at least try to have some content, and wait until there is something to comment on. Your last post was fine, and I'm not asking for walls of text either, just enough so that it doesn't seem like I'm reading a bad AIM conversation.

[quadz08]

Fair enough; I'll do what I can.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Firstly, I have never been an advocate for town controlled "kills". I find the hurt system to work in a similar fashion. The entirety of being able to hurt is that a small group of townies who know they are town can overcome the odds.

I find that with the coordination that scum have over town, "town" controlled kills become anything but.
In the same fashion, we should be publicly using rage points, but NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE TOLD HOW TO USE THEIR RAGE. If people are to use Rage, they need to be accountable for it. You don't want the scum team manipulating rage. Town intent will shine through with Rage use and we'll figure out the scum faster this way.

Personally, with the Hurt mechanic is feel VERY VERY similarly to the Rage mechanic, but the issue is that while Rage is limited, Hurting is only time sensitive, and it can become very out of hand. Confusion hurts town just as much as placing all our eggs into the "town controlled" mechanic.

I think the best solution might be to, at certain points in the game (let's say every 3 days?) have everyone announce who they want to hurt (without actually hurting them), and then we apply 1 hurt point to the people chosen per every 1 nomination they get above one. (I.E: if Quadz had 3 people who wanted to hurt him, 2 people would put hurts onto him).

This way, people are ACCOUNTABLE for their hurts (and can't just follow a popular train of thought). The only issue I can think of with this plan is that it can potentially leave people open to scum Rage killing.

But if the Rage works the way I think it does, if all townies only use their rage in thread we should be able to determine who used rage to kill a target if people rapidly come in and heal up the people who remain hurt. (Someone correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong.)

In the end, the biggest issue I've learned with these kinds of strategies is that if everyone is trying to do their own strategy then the town will ultimately fail. Even if I don't agree with the idea Tierce and past players have put forward, if that's the more accepted plan I will follow it just for the sake of a solid plan being followed in the town, so that people can focus on scum hunting and not on mathcrafting/plancrafting.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, I'm against massclaiming for the time being, unless someone can give me a really good reason why we should be outing our Power Roles.

[quadz08]

Even if I don't agree with the idea Tierce and past players have put forward, if that's the more accepted plan I will follow it just for the sake of a solid plan being followed in the town, so that people can focus on scum hunting and not on mathcrafting/plancrafting.

I agree with this.

I'm not really sure why lynching people like this is normal mafia is a bad thing though, LLD. Do you consider the lynch to be a less powerful and useful weapon than a vigkill?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Even if I don't agree with the idea Tierce and past players have put forward, if that's the more accepted plan I will follow it just for the sake of a solid plan being followed in the town, so that people can focus on scum hunting and not on mathcrafting/plancrafting.

I agree with this.

I'm not really sure why lynching people like this is normal mafia is a bad thing though, LLD. Do you consider the lynch to be a less powerful and useful weapon than a vigkill?

I consider a vigkill infinitely more powerful than a lynch. Especially when

everyone can do it

. It's a matter of accountability and intent. Yes you can learn a lot from lynch wagons and things, but it's my opinion that scum can more easily deceive their intent when it's a wagon full of people, and their accountability isn't as high. You see a lot of compromise lynches, lynches just to lynch, "information" lynches, and all of these can be coming from town or from scum.

So yes, there is a skill in deciphering which is which, but I think it's a HELL (heh) of a lot easier to decipher motive if people are directly accountable for their actions and they have to show their intent in every move they make.

Just like a Vig who shoots someone who isn't the town consensus, they need to be accountable for that kill and the intent behind it can reveal quite easily whether they are a serial killer or an actual vig. (it's the reason why you won't see very many SKs claim Vig).

[Kinetic]

Just like a Vig who shoots someone who isn't the town consensus, they need to be accountable for that kill and the intent behind it can reveal quite easily whether they are a serial killer or an actual vig. (it's the reason why you won't see very many SKs claim Vig).

There are many more reasons why an SK won't claim Vig, among them, it puts a target on their back for the mafia. But most SKs DO claim Vig when they are pressured or "caught", so I don't really think this reasoning holds up.

At the same time, I see the hurt/heal mechanic much more similarly to a lynch system then a vig system. This isn't Texas showdown. It is the "vig" mentality that lead to the chaos that caused the town to lose every single War in Heaven game. Every time someone said "Let's just hurt and be hurt" the scum let them, and the town killed themselves off. Because the scum had the inherent advantage of both hidden attacks and coordination.

Now, the town has rage, but we have no idea when we will regain rage, when it will accumulate, or how much we will have throughout the game. Hell, in War in Heaven rage was accumulated only when a) an angel was killed, or b) at a set period of time. The "town" version of rage may not accumulate like that at all. We will see, but I don't think we should count too much on it just yet.

As for the mass claim plan, I have a pretty sure fire way to catch 1-2 scum with it if things go right. I'm just unsure if I've out thought Flay or not.

[Zdenek]

Also, if we assume everyone has ~11 HP, as the sample role PM does, then it will take at least 48 hours to lynch anyone at the beginning of the game. If we lynch incorrectly, assuming scum is using their Rage effectively, Town players will be missing much more health than scum players. We need to publicly announce when we use rage. Anyone who uses rage in secret is anti-town and will be treated as such.

Well, with the use of rage, we can get it done faster.

Basically, the strategy should be, vote, get a majority, and then kill the person as fast as possible once it's decided he should die to avoid the person as scum picking up more rage/using his rage. Unless people are being killed, they should be at full health, so town should not be using rage except for this purpose. I'd actually be happy if scum used their rage to help lynches along. Since this is the only acceptable town use of rage, I don't see the benefit in announcing it because (almost?) any other use of rage should be regarded as scum motivated.

We should expect that scum will try to kill people all at once with their rage (at least early in the game, later on it might not be possible because of diminished rage capacity for the whole team) because otherwise that person will be very likely town and it would make sense for us to heal him to keep him alive.

No. Absolutely not! This is a terrible idea. If we keep it secret only the scum win because they can better hide their plays.

What do you think will stop them from lying? What scenario do you have in mind?

When making the decision about claiming rage, we should keep in mind the possibility of power roles like the ophans of last game, which may noit accumulate rage at the same rate as others, or stronger roles that accumulate it faster. If there are these roles in the game, they could be outed quickly if we start mass-claiming rage.

If a "secret rage" happens we can force our biggest scumreads to heal the player and basically drag out the rager since the rager would not be able to heal. If scum are going to rage it's going to be the more suspected scum because they're more likely to go soon and therefore it's more useful to use up their rage. So if we forced our four or five biggest scumreads to heal we would have definitely found a scum and it would have been a nifty one-time trick.

Scum being aware that this might happen does not stop us from trying it - if someone is injured by rage, we force the scum reads to heal. I guess there is one problem with this, but there might be ways around it. I'll bring it up later when it's relevant.

That said, I doubt that the game is designed so that it can be broken in this way, but it's worth a shot.

FOr example, assume that most townspeople would have accrued 3 rage at a certain point in the game and a ton of rage just got dumped. forcing proof that everyone has the amount of rage they should have (3 minus whatever they claimed to use before) then scum are either caught here or must spend 3 less rage for scum purposes than they otherwise would be able to. this may or may not be possible but theoretically i like it as an idea.

I can sort of see how this could be a scum-hunting tool, but with scum lying and town's people accumulating rage at different rates, I really question whether it will be helpful.

I think the best solution might be to, at certain points in the game (let's say every 3 days?) have everyone announce who they want to hurt (without actually hurting them), and then we apply 1 hurt point to the people chosen per every 1 nomination they get above one. (I.E: if Quadz had 3 people who wanted to hurt him, 2 people would put hurts onto him).

No. Everyone needs to be at full health, unless they are being lynched. It drastically reduces the power of scum rage. If a bunch of town are at low health, scum can pick them off. It forces scum to use more of their accumulated rage to get a kill that they want to go through. Also, because scum may get more rage for being in on a townie kill, we should limit those people who we allow to hurt at all.

[Zdenek]

I'm still thinking about mass-claiming in general.

[quadz08]

Zdenek, there is no pro-town reason not to claim that you're using rage to put a lynch through. I agree, if someone uses rage outside of putting through a lynch, that's bad. But worse is doing so and not telling anyone you did it.

In fact, I agree with everything in your post aside from the fact that you want rage to not be public, which reads as fairly scummy to me. "These things are all clearly pro-town so I have to agree with them / make good points about them, but this one piece is reeeeeeally gonna fuck with how my scumteam can win. Better disagree with that one."

FoS: Zdenek

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, there is no pro-town reason not to claim that you're using rage to put a lynch through.

That is false. In endgame, it will benefit scum to kill of people with the most accumulated rage, for them to not know who has spent the most rage benefits town because they will be able to kill off scum faster.

Frankly, this concern about announcing rage use in the thread looks contrived to me, but so it goes. I really don't see what benefit this information has to town. So far the best people have said is that the knowledge will help the town but I don't actually see how town can put it to practical use at this point.

[MattP]

Ok, how about this for a DEMOCRATIC way of killing players:

We all respect a pseudo-vote system, similar to a regular game. Once a player reaches majority, we agree that we will kill that player. If anyone uses healing or hurting to go against this system they are playing anti-town

This is my last mechanic-related post

[MattP]

Removed doublepost.

[quadz08]

In endgame, it will benefit scum to kill of people with the most accumulated rage, for them to not know who has spent the most rage benefits town because they will be able to kill off scum faster.

This is true. However, it is also of significantly lesser consequence than

allowing scum to be able to secretly kill someone

, especially if we're letting town players get away with doing the same thing. I don't remember which past WiH it was (I think it was the completed large theme), but in mid-game, the scum basically went on a killing spree using rage, because there were so many town players who were at middling health, because town had been hurting each other willy-nilly. The same situation will occur here if we allow people to rage willy-nilly.

Rage gets claimed publicly. Period.

P-Edit: So... that thing that was suggested on the very first page that everyone who isn't LLD agrees with?

[MattP]

P-Edit: So... that thing that was suggested on the very first page that everyone who isn't LLD agrees with?

OH

YEAH THAT

[Zdenek]

This is true. However, it is also of significantly lesser consequence than allowing scum to be able to secretly kill someone, especially if we're letting town players get away with doing the same thing. I don't remember which past WiH it was (I think it was the completed large theme), but in mid-game, the scum basically went on a killing spree using rage, because there were so many town players who were at middling health, because town had been hurting each other willy-nilly. The same situation will occur here if we allow people to rage willy-nilly.

I've absolutely said that town should not use rage willy-nilly. I don't have a problem with town using rage to accelerate lynches. Here is what I am missing: how does publicly announcing rage use for this purpose in the thread stop scum from secretly hurting people?

[charter]

I haven't played in one of these before, so if there's something important I should know, let me know.

MattP is town.
Zdenek's quicklynch to prevent scum from using all their rage idea is pretty unlikely to work. I think it unlikely we sit around talking about how scummy someone is for three days, and the scum don't see a quicklynch coming.

I would be fine with a massclaim, or at least a rage/HP claim.

[quadz08]

when somebody who we did not target to be lynched

is suddenly shown as missing health

we will know that scum has targeted them

we then follow the plan listed earlier of forcing scummyfolk to heal the person who's been targeted

anyone who cannot do so (because cooldowns) gets immediately lynched to death