Mafia 1013 - Prozacs Basic Theme - Game has ENDED

[llamaeatataco]

@Raivann: Exaggeration =/= lying. Well, technically it does, but in practice...

Now, is anyone going to make some tenuous connection between raivann and fishy, or do I have to? (buddying and such.)

[Flameaxe]

Unvote!

I'm not totally sold on buddying just yet, personally. I will however point out my current suspicion of fishy (not necessarily sold on raivann yet). You agree with such logic as "he had lots of smilieys in his post, therefore = sucking up to the town"? Seriously? Maybe it's just because I've known Blackberry for so long and have had many conversations with him over AIM that it seems absurd, but honestly, it just seems like a huge stretch to me. If anything, I see Berry's "random questions" to be a town-tell itself. He sparked discussion on page one of a game. While most was short-lived, its still much more discussion than one would get with randomly voting during the day. As far as it see it, this whole ordeal is being blown way out of proportion. Not by raivann who originally made the point, but by fishy. Going from a random vote to berry is likely scum in roughly a page of posts is a bit ridiculous.

PS: I would normally vote after this, but I'll wait for a votecount first.

[Fishythefish]

@BB: speaking for myself, when I am town it matters to me how I look. When I am scum I

obsess

about it. I believe this is broadly true for the population as a whole. I totally agree that a great town strategy is to be very open about your thoughts on the game, because when I achieve that is easily when I play my best mafia. But that still brings us back to the fact that your were thinking about your own image.

@llama: what's wrong with my vote, exactly? I don't understand your explanations thus far. Can you also please explain exactly what the connection between Raivann and me is - all I see is that we agree on something.

FoS: Llama

Right now I don't feel your attitude towards me adds up. Also, your stance on me seemed to become less certain between posts 35 and 48, and yet you voted for me in the latter - after your position had received support from xvart.

@flameaxe: I think that
1) People who use smilies to excess are more likely to be trying to be liked by the town.
2) People who are trying to be liked by the town are more likely to be thinking about how they are viewed.
3) People who are thinking about how they are viewed are more likely to be scum.
When I said BB was "likely scum", I meant that he was more likely scum than average. Obviously, it's too early in the game to be very sure.

[Porochaz]

Fishythefish - 2 - xvart, llamaeatataco
Blackberry - 2 - Fishythefish, Jack
Llama - 2 - Mitsuru, raivann
Strangercoug - 1 - mallowgeno
Flameaxe - 1 - Strangercoug
mallowgeno - 1 - Blackberry

Not Voting - 3 - Anon, Budja, Flameaxe

Deadline: 17th August.

[Porochaz]

Anon has not posted so will be prodded.

[StrangerCoug]

SC was tiptoing around his opinion, calling Jacks vote "interesting" for example.

Fine. Noteworthy. You happy?

[mallowgeno]

Also,

Vote: mallowgeno

for the moment. Him not responding to my question suggests he may not have read any of the other posts (though I doubt this considering I bolded everyone's names). So I'll see what he says .

Soz didn't read your post.

mallowgeno - Do you think people who get angry easily and use cuss words/act like the other person is stupid is more likely to me mafia, or it is 100% personality?

Depends on player. I think more experienced players wouldn't do either regardless.

[mallowgeno]

Fine. Noteworthy. You happy?

After that statement, my vote shall remain.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Fishy, I'd hardly consider thinking about how you are viewed as scummy. Whether you're town, scum or whatever, you want to be seen as town. That's common to all roles, is it not? What makes it scummy in the first place?

Unvote

for now. Expect a serious vote shortly.

[Raivann]

Fishy, I'd hardly consider thinking about how you are viewed as scummy. Whether you're town, scum or whatever, you want to be seen as town. That's common to all roles, is it not? What makes it scummy in the first place?

Unvote

for now. Expect a serious vote shortly.

Do you know who your serious vote is gonna be for? Or were you gonna makeup something shortly?

Why not just serious vote now ?

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Because I don't see anyone who needs a vote yet. Just a whole lot of overreacting.

[Porochaz]

Hi guys, just letting you know Ill be away from the 5th to the 10th. Farside has graciously offered to do votecounts and if necessary lock the thread during that time. If night falls during that time, I will still be taking night choices. I will tell you all again nearer the time. But thought I should let you know.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy, I'd hardly consider thinking about how you are viewed as scummy. Whether you're town, scum or whatever, you want to be seen as town. That's common to all roles, is it not? What makes it scummy in the first place?

Unvote

for now. Expect a serious vote shortly.

I've already answered this. I believe that scum think about how they are viewed

more

than town. This is based on my personal experience, and I think it's fairly sensible - as scum, your own life is much more important than being right about things, so the emphasis in your thought process is on "how will this look?" rather than "is this true?".

[Flameaxe]

1) People who use smilies to excess are more likely to be trying to be liked by the town.

I've heard some pretty absurd arguments in my time on this website, but this one is really creeping to the number one spot. Do you honestly believe that using a lot of smilies would be a scum tactic? Calling this a stretch is quite an understatement.

When I said BB was "likely scum", I meant that he was more likely scum than average. Obviously, it's too early in the game to be very sure.

Not buying it. Likely scum and more likely scum than average are completely different. Given the overall tone of said post, I did not (and still cannot) feel "more likely than average". The speed at which you changed gears can be summed up by one word: Fishy. (rimshot?)

Vote: Fishy

---

Yo, Jack. Where you at, brah?

[Fishythefish]

Well. That was how I was intending the phrase "likely scum". I think it would be kind of absurd for it to have the other meaning - there is simply no motivation for a player of any faction to make a statement with such unjustified certainty that early in the game. I also think it's pretty clear from my post 36 (shortly after the vote) that this was my meaning - I said BB's post was "a bit more likely to come from scum than town" and that it was "more likely to be right than a total nulltell". I don't think those phrases jive at all well with what you think I was saying.

I'm not saying the actual smilies themselves would be a concious scum tactic. Rather, worrying about how people see you would lead to an ingratiating post style, as you tried to make people like you.

I don't think my argument was wrong. If it's not obvious, I don't feel what I pointed out is a mega-strong scumtell, but I do think it is a scumtell. And in the RVS, I'll vote on anything that I think makes someone more likely to be scum. I really don't understand why people have such big problems with this vote.

[StrangerCoug]

Fine. Noteworthy. You happy?

After that statement, my vote shall remain.

Being flippant is not a tell. Sorry.

[xvart]

@xvart- I didn't vote Blackberry I FoS'ed him.

You're right; but my point is still valid regardless.

I'm not saying the actual smilies themselves would be a concious scum tactic. Rather, worrying about how people see you would lead to an ingratiating post style, as you tried to make people like you.

I really don't read BB's post that way; I mean there are a couple parts that might seem a little AtEish but nothing substantial. That's why I think this whole debate is somewhat concocted.

xvart.

[Budja]

unvote, vote Llama

, (heavy dose of gut here, Raivann's point was ok).

I don't get the antagonism against Fishy. It's a decent wagon at this stage of the game.

[llamaeatataco]

@Budja: So you as well are saying that you believe scum would use smilies more often than town?

Also, the antagonism is because it makes the day go faster.

@Fishy: My stance on you didn't change at all. I was clarifying. There was one shred of truth in all of the stupidity, and I was confirming its existence. The rest of it was still stupid.

@Mitsuru: Yes, we're overreacting a little bit. It's better than under-reacting.

[Fishythefish]

@llama: and my other questions? To repeat:
- Why, exactly, am I scum? What is it that was stupid about my vote, and why was that stupidity (or anything else about it) scummy?
- What is the link between me and Raivann, and why did you bring it up?
- If your stance didn't change between those posts, why did you only vote in the second one?
I feel you are rather strawmanning my argument on BB by condensing it to "scum use smilies more than town". While I suppose that is a consequence of it, it makes the argument sound more silly than it is.

@xvart: when posting early in the game, I endeavour not to random vote. That means I'm looking for any tell of any magnitude to vote on. If the result sometimes looks "somewhat concocted", that's no great surprise to me. By the way, what do you mean when you call my vote "opportunistic", in the context of it being the second vote on a wagon, with the first being random?

[mallowgeno]

Fine. Noteworthy. You happy?

After that statement, my vote shall remain.

Being flippant is not a tell. Sorry.

I never said it was a tell. You just did. I WILL say that that just makes me suspect you more and I think you just slipped.

[Budja]

@Llama, Pushing an "innocent" persona -> slightly higher chance of being scum -> good starting wagon. Yes, it could be a personality thing, but why WIFOM.

Reread a bit. Expanding (slightly) on my gut, you feel hollow/fake to me. The opinion changing on Fishy especially feels off (to take from Raivann).

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

I never said it was a tell. You just did. I WILL say that that just makes me suspect you more and I think you just slipped.

This makes absolutely no sense.

[llamaeatataco]

@llama: what's wrong with my vote, exactly? I don't understand your explanations thus far. Can you also please explain exactly what the connection between Raivann and me is - all I see is that we agree on something.

Whoops. OK, connection between you and Raivann: You backed up his absolutely batshit insane theory, he's now attacking me for attacking you, etc. It's slightly silly, but I did say tenuous, didn't I?

Anyway, what's wrong with your vote? It's stupid. 'Smilies = sucking up to town' is absolutely retarded. It's quite obviously a personality thing.

If your stance didn't change between those posts, why did you only vote in the second one

Because I didn't feel like taking my random vote off in my first post.

Llama, Pushing an "innocent" persona -> slightly higher chance of being scum -> good starting wagon. Yes, it could be a personality thing, but why WIFOM.

It's the first link that is a problem. The first link that you didn't list, that of "People who use smilies are trying to look innocent."
(This also applies to Fishy) If you don't agree with your argument after I take it to its (silly) logical conclusion, then be a man and unvote and accept that you are wrong.

To beat a dead horse:

I feel you are rather strawmanning my argument on BB by condensing it to "scum use smilies more than town". While I suppose that is a consequence of it, it makes the argument sound more silly than it is.

I'm not making it sound

more

silly than it is, you're trying to make it sound

less

silly. I'm not strawmanning you, I'm showing you what your saying without dressing it up with stupid crap to make it sound legit.

Reread a bit. Expanding (slightly) on my gut, you feel hollow/fake to me. The opinion changing on Fishy especially feels off (to take from Raivann).

Cool story bro. What's this opinion change thing again? The part where I acknowledged that there was a bit of truth in the mess of fail?

I never said it was a tell. You just did. I WILL say that that just makes me suspect you more and I think you just slipped.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Indeed. 'splain Mallow?

[Fishythefish]

No. You are strawmanning my argument. My full argument goes:
- BB's jokey style in his first post, including smilies, make me think he is trying to be liked.
- This, and the fact that he talks about his playstyle (which is an argument you have made no reference to), make me think he is thinking about his own image.
- This makes me think he's scum.
I think it's clear that that is not equivalent to "smilies are scummy". I don't believed that you actually went back and looked at my posts when I challenged you on that. And since your supposedly basing your vote off my posts, I find that pretty suspect.

unvote, vote: llama