Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Tammy]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[farside22]

VOTE: cakez

Maybe I'm colored by my frustration but this is shitty.

He just refuses to consider town motivation for changing meta and also refuses to consider the disadvantages of playing so obviously differently as scum when multiple people in the game have played with him before.

I think town would be approaching it differently.

This is scum posting. ^

cakes' case is very shallow

Agreed.

Are you even reading my posts?

I didn't read your last big post. I did read your case and the lots of quotes reminded me of biker wars.

I liked Infinity for town-lean early but as time goes on I like him less.

No he wasn't @farside

Not sure I like the wraith wagon. The wisdom vote was weird but very sloppy for scum play.

Would like other answers about whether cakez is this shallow as scum vs. town

@cakez What do you think about wisdom's response that he changed playstyle because he felt like it? Do you think that's unlikely?

I don't know who scum is, but that's ok I guess. This game I'll try a more patient approach and not judge anyone until I have a solid read on them.

Town lean is in that sentence. And he didn't explain the issues.
Speaking of which, why did you vote him in the first place?

Yeah I don't like this one. I clearly explained why my read had changed.

Let's review the important thing.
First you say you had a town lean in the begining.

it could still mean that he doesnt find your reasoning convincing enough to think that was a genuine progression
idk wraith come explain that post of urs pls

pedit: wahat

This

I liked Infinity for

town-lean early but as time goes on I like him less.

I like Kraska for town but find her scumread on Kagami strange.

Kagami still strongest townread.

PeregrineV townread.

Biggest scum leans are farside and Wisdom but they aren't particularly strong at this point.

However if anyone actually reads wraith issues with infinty it starts with post number 10 in the game.
So exactly what was earlier that read town and why not mention issues till way later after others already said something?

Specific stuff I don't like about Infinity so far:

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I rolled scum

that's what you really meant, admit it

Why no vote?

This really rubs me the wrong way. It's a pretty obvious joke literally less than 10 posts into the game but he's jumping on it like it's scummy.

I liked him town-lean early for posts 25, 28, and 39, but so far that's kind of it.

Ha! I thought it had something to do with the numbers.

Tammy - Understanding P5's humor since 2016. Go me!

Infinity - Did you just vote nacho because there was a wagon started on him already?

Yes

This rubs me wrong too.

You're entitled to your opinion. Since I don't think farside's vote was particularly scummy, I'm not going to bother to argue it.

He says this, but previously had like five posts questioning the motives of farside's vote. ???

His vote on me without explaining why is odd but could easily just be looking to get a reaction out of me. I guess it worked a different way because it drew a lot of reactions from other players.

I might shift my vote in a minute. About to re-read Wisdom's ISO to see if I'm remembering things right in my evaluation of him.

[farside22]

And I'm sure I'll get shit for this but I feel comfortable calling wraith and Infinity scum and would vote for either.
I noted 2 times Infinity stated issues with wraith but stayed mostly away from voting him and finding his vote onto others instead for rather weak reason's.
Also crazy enough I'm scum reading bulba.
Cakez moved to null.

[Tammy]

I was aaaaahing at wraith's last post, not nachos' which I appreciated.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see the gears turning in cakez's head. I can see how he would be uneasy with wisdom changing up his style, but making a judgement so early without trying to figure him out is somewhat scummy imo.

That's why he's continuing to interact with Wisdom. And making a judgement early is entirely valid if Cakez has experience with Wisdom and can tell something is off.

Also I can't believe that wraith doesn't have more votes.

This shift off of him was kinda weird. I didn't expect to suddenly have a following.

I also was concerned about Bulbazack's lack of quote stripe response to everything in the thread.

I don't do that when just starting out, just when catching up in a thread I'm already active in. Starting out, I'm just trying to get a foot hold. At most, I might just do some sort of reads dump.

I was kind of expecting a bit of suspicion thrown my way from bulba but I didn't even get a mention :p

Was there something I was supposed to be suspicious of?

My Bulba not being here concerns have gone away for obvious reasons, he's a townlean now

Activity never has anything to do with my alignment. I was just busy.

you do realize how fake you're sounding, right?

I didn't like this part of the Cakez/Wisdom exchange. It felt like mud flinging.

Also crazy enough I'm scum reading bulba.

Is this going to be a thing with us? Because funnily enough, I'm not sold on you-town either.

I was aaaaahing at wraith's last post, not nachos' which I appreciated.

What about it did you dislike?

@Nacho: Why are you ignoring me?

[Infinity 324]

And I'm sure I'll get shit for this but I feel comfortable calling wraith and Infinity scum and would vote for either.
I noted 2 times Infinity stated issues with wraith but stayed mostly away from voting him and finding his vote onto others instead for rather weak reason's.
Also crazy enough I'm scum reading bulba.
Cakez moved to null.

I had issues with wraith, yes.

They mainly had to do with him not scumhunting. Whatever you want to say about him, he's scumhunting now.

I don't particularly like his posts, but I don't think they're scummy

[Infinity 324]

I will say my scumread on cakez is lessened. Partly because of how many people agree about wisdom's meta change. (Still I find it odd that it would be so obvious and odd that cakez wouldn't consider that, but ok)

My vote stays where it is for now.

[Bulbazak]

Infinity, what is your experience with Wisdom?

[Infinity 324]

I've played one game with him

[Wisdom]

wraith's post re:shaddow is weird
You feel like hes going to be forcing a scumread on him when it begins but by the end hes actually doing the "i dont understand why this is being voted" thing
I dont know what to think here

[Wisdom]

Townread on farside is more solid now

[farside22]

And I'm sure I'll get shit for this but I feel comfortable calling wraith and Infinity scum and would vote for either.
I noted 2 times Infinity stated issues with wraith but stayed mostly away from voting him and finding his vote onto others instead for rather weak reason's.
Also crazy enough I'm scum reading bulba.
Cakez moved to null.

I had issues with wraith, yes.

They mainly had to do with him not scumhunting. Whatever you want to say about him, he's scumhunting now.

I don't particularly like his posts, but I don't think they're scummy

That is not scum hunting and you know better.

Aaawwwww I love you to bulba.

In all seriousness I missed where you think wraith is scummy.
Nope I'm wrong, you just voted shaddow for no reason and commented about wraith scumminess.
Yup that's classic scum.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry farside you're just wrong here. I'm allowed to have an opinion that's different from yours, and you're pretending like you're seen my towngame to be able to judge what I would think? I think wraith is attempting to scumhunt now. I don't think he was before. I think his current play would be unusual coming from scum and rather sloppy for scum play. I think it would be similarly odd coming from town which is why he's null. I'm sitting here having that opinion about wraith's play, and you're sitting here saying that I couldn't possibly have that opinion. So you do you I guess, but it's kind of difficult to work with you when you're in this tunnel state.

Also I never voted shaddow so ???

[Infinity 324]

Well, you have seen my towngame in princess bride. Point still stands.

[Wraith]

Okay I did a full thread re-read and took better notes this time. Here they are, WoT warning:

• Again I immediately have a problem with Infinity’s nitpicking re: Wisdom early. I ignored it the first time but every time I re-read it I like it less
• Still think Kagami’s early activity is townie
• I agree with Tammy in #36 that it’s strange (and somewhat hypocritical) that Infinity seems concerned with farside’s RVS vote and potential scumread on him when he himself had nitpicked Wisdom’s lack of vote earlier
• Still don’t like that Infinity admits he put his RVS on Nacho because there was an RVS wagon forming there
• Like I said #221, Infinity in #51 acts strangely when he claims he doesn’t think farside’s vote on him is scummy and won’t argue about it when he spent much of the second page arguing about it
• My #52 is really dumb and I was clearly not paying attention early
• I agree with Infinity that shadow’s #55 seems like a dumb fluff question
• I have a pretty strong early townread on Nacho and that hasn’t changed
• Peregrine being surprisingly active early on gave me a soft townread on him
• In hindsight I don’t think Wisdom’s #87 “180” is as bad as first appears. His one-sentence explanation for his townread of Inifinity can make sense from a certain point of view I suppose. But I don’t agree with it, I think there was a lot of hypocrisy/strangeness in Infinity’s early posts
• It’s hard for me to a read on Tammy this early. She seems similar to MoI to me in that it’s easy for her to make frequent and good contributions in order to appear town even if she isn’t. So I think by default I’m filing her as a soft townread. Like MoI, I need time and player flips to get a more accurate read on her
• Posts like Nacho’s #98 are posts I especially like, because they’re posts that follow the same line of thinking as me, and since I’m town, and tend to assume people who following the same lines of thinking as town!me are also town. That may seem strange regarding this particular post, since it’s criticizing one of my own posts, but in hindsight I do see how dumb that particular post of mine was and I’ve come to the same conclusion
• Yeah, I should’ve waited for SirCakez to make his own case re: his vote on Wisdom in #120. I was overeager to find something to get a scumread on (I really hate D1 and RVS) and as a result I think I blew an opportunity to get a more accurate early gauge on SirCakez. And again this ties into my strong townread on Nacho because he calls me out on it in #143
• I think Wisdom is overly concerned when people vote for him. Same with Infinity
• Shadow’s question to me in #147 is pretty damn disingenuous, now that I think of it. My problem isn’t that “people’s reads shouldn’t change” but that when they do change I require visible progression, which is what kraska suggests in #184
• I have a soft townread on kraska even though I disagree with her evaluation of Kagami
• I don’t like that Wisdom continually tries to validate his scumread of me via other players, like what kraska says in #165. I don’t like that as of #200/203 it seems like his top scumreads are coincidentally the same people who voted for him
• Kagami’s #202 is sound
• I don’t like Wisdom’s #220. Most of his posts between my vote of him and #220 aren’t him giving much explanation for his changing read, but rather him trying to evaluate if other players also think I’m scum for voting him
• Infinity’s #225 is meh. Wisdom doesn’t have “fluff” so much as an OMGUS-esque fixation on me. Finding someone scummy for “fluff” is itself a little weak anyways. I also don’t like Infinity’s #227 because it has shades of trying to buddy me
• I still really hate how Wisdom has reacted to my vote on him. He’s been beating this dead horse about me for something like five pages now
• Again Nacho #229 saying what I’m thinking
• Peregrine’s #238 is ???
• Peregrine’s #246 is good. I think it’s again a bad sign for Wisdom that two players I have townreads on (Nacho from #247 and kraska from #206) and one player I don’t (Infinity from #208) both have nullreads on shadow from his limited ISO while Wisdom somehow has a scumread from it. Especially since Wisdom finally stops beating the dead horse that is me in favor of this scumread in future pages, but it’s actually more justifiable to have a scumread of me than shadow
• I think Infinity making his case on Wisdom throughout page 11 is arguing from the completely wrong direction and I’m not sure what to make it. It could range from genuine mistake to deliberate misrep
• Cakez’s case in #297 is shallow, but it’s also early game, and I’m understanding the direction he’s coming from. Generally, the vibe I’ve been getting from Wisdom all game is that he wants the approval of other players and actively seeks it out rather than building an actual case against his scumreads, and I think that’s scummy
• Farside’s scumread and subsequent justifications for it make more sense than Wisdom’s. Nevertheless, I don’t like farside’s #345, because I explained why my read on Infinity had changed. It makes me interpret it as a deliberate misrep. Still, in hindsight of this re-read, I don’t think that’s enough to justify my continuing to vote for farside. I have a stronger scumread on Wisdom at this point
• The hardcore lurking by Leonshade and Bulbazak is very annoying
• How Wisdom is “leaning town” on Bulbazak in #377 after only two posts by the latter player is puzzling. In #379 Wisdom posts in reads list and has Leonshade as “leaning scum” – how he leans scum for Leon (who has one post) and leans town for Bulba (who had two posts at that point) seems really contradictory
• I don’t get Kagami’s vote for shadow in #384
• I like Bulbazak’s #385
• I like Tammy’s #406
• Wisdom’s #343 is just strange. He tries to draw me to the shadow wagon in #405, so I read shadow’s ISO and find a couple things I don’t like but not very much. But then Wisdom says my post on that ISO is odd because it feels like I was trying to “force a scumread.” Did he want me to just vote for shadow without a read at all?

Going to post a reads list and vote change shortly.

[Wraith]

My reads list is in tiers and exact descending order - T1 = Townread, T2 = Soft Townread, T3 = Neutral/Murky, T4 = Soft Scumread, T5 = Scumread

Nacho

Kagami
Kraska
PeregrineV
Tammy
Bulbazak

SirCakez
Leonshade
Shadowwez
Infinity

farside

Wisdom

Unvote

Vote: Wisdom

[SirCakez]

I don't even care. The fact that I'm getting town reads makes me so happy because it means I'm trusting again. I went on a hell of a scum streak and the result was that I've had a really hard time feeling good about town reads in the few town games I've gotten. Feeling paranoid about literally everyone in a game feels a hell of a lot worse than having a town read or two wrong on day one.

This is super duper genuine and I'm like 100% sure Tammy is town now

Okay let's take a look at shadow's short ISO

Firstly, it's somewhat of a good sign to me that both Wisdom and SirCakez both scumread him. It's a little early in the game though to present doubts on that front for fear of WIFOM.

What the heck does this mean?

Also crazy enough I'm scum reading bulba.

Why? I find his posts very townie.

My Bulba not being here concerns have gone away for obvious reasons, he's a townlean now

Activity never has anything to do with my alignment. I was just busy.

I was going off the one game I can remember seeing your play (Mafiaception) where you were pretty active as town
But I don't think I've seen your scum game so that's moot anyway

[Wisdom]

I think it’s again a bad sign for Wisdom that two players I have townreads on (Nacho from #247 and kraska from #206) and one player I don’t (Infinity from #208) both have nullreads on shadow from his limited ISO while Wisdom somehow has a scumread from it.

this feels a little forced
"I don't get how Wisdom has a different opinion than others = bad sign for Wisdom"
nah

[Wisdom]

Generally, the vibe I’ve been getting from Wisdom all game is that he wants the approval of other players and actively seeks it out rather than building an actual case against his scumreads, and I think that’s scummy

you have the right vibe, you just described my playstyle. I work with people, I don't make cases.

[Wisdom]

• How Wisdom is “leaning town” on Bulbazak in #377 after only two posts by the latter player is puzzling. In #379 Wisdom posts in reads list and has Leonshade as “leaning scum” – how he leans scum for Leon (who has one post) and leans town for Bulba (who had two posts at that point) seems really contradictory

bad for the same reason as above
you're pretending to be the judge of how I am getting my reads when you are not in my mind and you don't think like I do

[Wisdom]

• Wisdom’s #343 is just strange. He tries to draw me to the shadow wagon in #405, so I read shadow’s ISO and find a couple things I don’t like but not very much. But then Wisdom says my post on that ISO is odd because it feels like I was trying to “force a scumread.” Did he want me to just vote for shadow without a read at all?

I expected you to give a solid stance on him but you waffled - started with weak reasons with which to scumread him and it appeared like you were going to force a scumread on him - but then you went "eh I like this post so I don't see why I should vote him"
Doesn't say much, you could still be buddies, but I found it notable

[kraska77]

The first post from kraska reads like a stretch and a bit of buddying towards me rubs me wrong.
Her defense of Infinity and attack on you I don't see how she comes to this conclusion.

what
"buddying"? really? what part of that even remotely looks like me buddying you? i hardly even mentioned you there

[Infinity 324]

• Again I immediately have a problem with Infinity’s nitpicking re: Wisdom early. I ignored it the first time but every time I re-read it I like it less
• Like I said #221, Infinity in #51 acts strangely when he claims he doesn’t think farside’s vote on him is scummy and won’t argue about it when he spent much of the second page arguing about it

Ok, so you say things you dislike about me, then I respond to them in 227, then you state them again without addressing my responses

while referencing the post my responses are in.

This shit pisses me off.

• Still don’t like that Infinity admits he put his RVS on Nacho because there was an RVS wagon forming there

Why?

And why am I null instead of a scumread when you said multiple times you think I'm scummy?

• I have a pretty strong early townread on Nacho and that hasn’t changed
• Posts like Nacho’s #98 are posts I especially like, because they’re posts that follow the same line of thinking as me, and since I’m town, and tend to assume people who following the same lines of thinking as town!me are also town. That may seem strange regarding this particular post, since it’s criticizing one of my own posts, but in hindsight I do see how dumb that particular post of mine was and I’ve come to the same conclusion
• Yeah, I should’ve waited for SirCakez to make his own case re: his vote on Wisdom in #120. I was overeager to find something to get a scumread on (I really hate D1 and RVS) and as a result I think I blew an opportunity to get a more accurate early gauge on SirCakez. And again this ties into my strong townread on Nacho because he calls me out on it in #143
• Again Nacho #229 saying what I’m thinking

So much appeasing and buddying

Seriously, you do this shit and call me out for buddying when I say I have townvibes from you?

As much as I dislike about this wraith post, the fake-feeling appeasing and buddying of nacho is the only thing that's scummy. But that's worth a vote

VOTE: wraith

[Wisdom]

Ok, so you say things you dislike about me, then I respond to them in 227, then you state them again without addressing my responses while referencing the post my responses are in. This shit pisses me off.

Agreed, he did that to me too. He says for example he doesn't understand a few of my reads without addressing where I explained them at all.

[Wisdom]

Posts like Nacho’s #98 are posts I especially like, because they’re posts that follow the same line of thinking as me,

and since I’m town, and tend to assume people who following the same lines of thinking as town!me are also town

.

also I feel like he unnecessarily puts emphasis on how he's town here. The post would still carry his point even if he didn't include what I bolded.