Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[VP Baltar]

In the neighborhood you circus performer

why would I ask you in the neighborhood instead of in the thread? This is much easier and more transparent.

[VP Baltar]

I mean, can't we just vote in the hood?

Mainly I don’t want to rush this day as I want to see Human’s reads and give a last will of sorts since I am probably dying. Got a lot of slots to sort and would prefer this go slower not faster (another reason wagon looks SvS between the two)

Did you and HEM have any good thoughts overnight that are worth sharing? Who do you think is suspicious on the Wu wagon?

[VP Baltar]

3) The lack of noticing who is on the playerlist doesn’t correspond to their shot claim. They said “someone who started with F” okay still multiple people. If they intended it to be one fua would have just said the name. Instead Skitter goes why fire and Fua goes along with it.

So Fua can’t have suddenly forgot Frog exists while making a PoE of who they shot. That seems off.

This isn't entirely unpersuasive.

The lack of a CC thing is notable though. You'd expect a second killing role in a game this size.

[VP Baltar]

@frof i like fire because they're making good, cogent points abt the game in a pique-ish manner that wont endear them to anybody. They're trying to solve but arent trying to end up on anyone's 'good' list

Really? I mean, I don't think fire is super scummy, but I don't see fire as being particularly prickly either.

While I have you, who were you scumreading coming into today before this whole fua fight? Setting fua aside, who is scum on the Wu wagon?

[VP Baltar]

@frof i like fire because they're making good, cogent points abt the game in a pique-ish manner that wont endear them to anybody. They're trying to solve but arent trying to end up on anyone's 'good' list

Really? I mean, I don't think fire is super scummy, but I don't see fire as being particularly prickly either.

While I have you, who were you scumreading coming into today before this whole fua fight? Setting fua aside, who is scum on the Wu wagon?

[VP Baltar]

Firstly, I thought the votes were still split between Yeet and GeneralWu. So I didn't even think we were near hammer, which is why I kept talking.

ok, hadn't gotten to this post yet in my catch up.

You surely saw there was a series of votes on Wu rapidly at that point didn't you? Did you look at the vote count before you voted?

[VP Baltar]

So I didn't even think we were near hammer, which is why I kept talking.

Also this part

I would think this would be pretty self-evident which makes me suspicious that you question me on this VP

How is that self evident? That's not evident to me at all. There were like three or four rapid votes on him after me.

[VP Baltar]

This doesn’t make sense at all.
Discussing reads in hoods is protown
Pushing people to post is protown.

Can you elaborate on why you say this?

And the hood should be used regardless of scum presence.

I don't agree. There is too much suspicion in the hood for it to be useful right now. People should post their thoughts in the main thread so everyone can see, and the night posting is just giving potential guidance to scum. If it gets purged of scum or we get strong town reads of people in the hood, then it becomes useful as a soft-mason thread. Otherwise, hoods are kind of meh.

[VP Baltar]

I am gonna be honest, I wasn't counting at all, I just remembered this one VC I saw and thought we were approximately there it was like you had 4 votes and Wu had 5 or something. There might have been a very quick shift in threadstate because it really wasn't that far off from where I was.

Note to self to go back and review the thread leading up to Cape's vote.

[VP Baltar]

You could just be terrible town here.

I'd argue that thinking that a player is scum and then rethinking whether or not they are really scum isn't bad town play. I guess you could also argue that Wu was so terrible that it was "good" townplay to get rid of him and maybe?

Look, I'm not going to ding you over potentially changing your Wu read anymore. Clearly, there is a world where you are town and had a better read than me. I think some of our arguing has not been that productive, but there is a certain aspect to your insistence that I'm scum that I find weirdly townie. There is a reason I've never voted you, even if I think some of your thought processes don't make a lot of sense to me.

The place where you and I agree is that we should lim inside the neighborhood today. I would like if you could take a look at what I"m saying about Cape and give me your thoughts. I will review skitter and we can reconvene to see if either of us change our minds.

[VP Baltar]

Cape your hammer is not NAI because there is obvious scum motivation to do it.

If anything because it has hyperlinks it was not a planned hammer so lean more town

Not scum being self conscious about their vote and trying to justify it with

~reasons~

?

[VP Baltar]

The "your better then this!" thing seems forced in at 684.
In 750 VP was talking about how Nero was having this read on GeneralWu's fluffposting calling that "whatever". Anyway, oddly enough in 1293 they vote Wu, cool, so as a sidestep, how does that progress? 1344, 1939 (woah calm down there buddy, I thought Wu was "whatever" ). 1940, 1952, you know, just a casual getting aggressive, also HEM was mega towny at this point, especially with MathBlade on board so as they say in like middle school or something, ratio. gottem. 1995 Gotta ask Ari twice I guess. 2004, 2009, and then they just 2222 they, they.. they... vote yeet?? Oh let's ignore 2214 though . Well, there was 2381. But then like, a post later, they just... kinda swap back to GeneralWu (2388) who I still don't really get why VP pushed here. Also wouldn't Wu be the logical play? You said so yourself 2128.

If I'm giving Cape the benefit of the doubt here, this is so stream of conscious and aimless when it comes to speaking to actual scum motivation from me that is perhaps possible he just spent his morning building this post rather than my original thought that his wall was a honed attack at me. Could be emotional reaction from him to being voted and he is OMGUSing me.

[VP Baltar]

Nah not interested in elimming in the hood unless activity picks up. It’s not a threat to scum so I would rather focus on what is a threat to scum.

If you want me to elim in the hood act like the hood matters

IDK, maybe there is just a lot of distrust in the hood and it's actually townie, but seems likely setup spec there is at least one scum in there. Those are better odds than what I'm seeing being presented as counter cases (fua scum for example). Cleaning the hood would actually make it matter. I don't think that's a bad D2 strat at all.

[VP Baltar]

EoD VC is 2438 which really isn't that long of a time from the other VC I pulled up,

My question is why you didn't skim pages inbetween to see if votes had shifted? Even if you aren't reading, that's pretty standard play isn't it?

[VP Baltar]

Not sold on VP.

im not either tbh but there's things that look scummy to me and i think it's a good wagon

I’d much prefer tene and Scorpio over VP.
VP’s play reminds me of the game I was recently with him. He was widely scumread but a PR. I think people perceive him as a viable target whatever his alignment. He could be scum but I trust HEM’s read of tene and Scorpio more.

hrmm, intereshting. i have not meta read VP yet maybe i should. i wouldn't have guessed that tho, if that's the case it makes me a little less interested. early on i had him read as strong poster relatively helpful townie, but some things made me start to not trust. if he often draws suspicion then... eh. could still be scum but im kinda less into it

monkey scumread tene tho? idr him talking about that in thread

I will confirm that Math's read of me generally speaking is correct. I very often get scum read because I'm a little direct with people in games (and I'm convinced my avi makes people sus of me). It happens regardless of alignment. Datisi has played with me a ton and can verify.

[VP Baltar]

Math, i'm not opposed to a Scorpious wagon because it's not like we are losing some asset if we're wrong. It feels a little low information even if we hit correctly, but I'll think about it. His vote on me for no reason doesn't make a lot of sense.

[VP Baltar]

Well i am replace of Fua.

Deets you should know:

Math is confirmed Mason.

There is a hood of: Nero, skitter, Cap90, VP.

There's a lot of useless posting in this game (maybe even some from me in the last few pages while I was catching up, sorry all!)

[VP Baltar]

This all happened in the span of one page by the way.

Right, what I'm saying is that should have been easy to spot at even a passing glimpse. You saw the vote count but didn't see any of the 7 votes that happened shortly after it?

[VP Baltar]

Going for Scorp today is lazy. I think scum would love nothing more than for us to waste another day.

VOTE: VPB, but I think Yeet has an agenda today too.

Well, I am actually scumhunting and asking questions to determine people's alignments. Big agenda energy.

What are you doing btw? Didn't you vote dragons? Is that fundamentally different from a Scorp wagon?

[VP Baltar]

This all happened in the span of one page by the way.

Right, what I'm saying is that should have been easy to spot at even a passing glimpse. You saw the vote count but didn't see any of the 7 votes that happened shortly after it?

I saw some of them but I really didn't think it shifted that much

Hmm, alright. I'll think about this. I am assuming you are saying you only saw the Math and fua votes just before yours?

[VP Baltar]

Well i am replace of Fua.

Deets you should know:

Math is confirmed Mason.

There is a hood of: Nero, skitter, Cap90, VP.

There's a lot of useless posting in this game (maybe even some from me in the last few pages while I was catching up, sorry all!)

Understood.

Oh, I'm ascetic too, fyi

[VP Baltar]

Any reason we shouldn’t turbo elim you on policy?

Because I'm town, and since when does town policy lim ascetic? That's just dumb.

Pedit- uh ok

[VP Baltar]

i've been playing for almost

3

14 years and i have never seen anyone actually policy a miller

[VP Baltar]

Datisi is pocketing me and it's working.

[VP Baltar]

There aren’t any

Why did you vote me then?

[VP Baltar]

it's the softer and more timid shading of me coming from other places that I'm more concerned about. I'm being kept in the elim pool and saved for later. No, I do not have an exhaustive list of who is guilty of this.

This is wildly paranoid if you're town. It's also very vague

[VP Baltar]

This game is not going well.

[VP Baltar]

Pretty much all of HEM’s scumreads are wagons or sussed
Namely tene Scorpio and April. Skitter has her tell and stock equity goes way up if April is.

Been thinking about this today. I sort of think there are two possible things maybe going on here. Either:

1) it is close to what HEM thought and a lot of the low content/impact people are on the scum team.

Or

2) the scum are more well hidden than town has really pushed. Something like a Datisi/skitter or Cape/fire core.

I can see a HEM kill in either scenario, so that isn't too helpful. The wagon also doesn't help clarify a ton for me either.

If you have a strong inclination to do the low volume pool today Math, I may just give you my vote to use. Tenebros explanations maybe seem the most contrived, but his frustration also read sort of real. Idk

[VP Baltar]

The wagon also doesn't help clarify a ton for me either.

Referring to the wu wagon here obv

[VP Baltar]

Do you think the frustration could be experienced by scum under suspicion? I guess that’s my running theory currently particularly given the severity of reaction after being suspected by a few people. I think that being under suspicion feels like a much bigger deal (in general) to scum than to town.

Yeah, of course. What I actually need to do is reread some of the early poking at tenebro and see how he responded in comparison.

[VP Baltar]

Where is it made fact that Mathblade is town?

Math claimed masons with HEM unprompted, and HEM confirmed that. HEM has since died and flipped mason.

[VP Baltar]

I've had like three posts, anyone saying I'm scummy is pulling it out of their ass. I've only been in this game less than 48 hours total of day time.

Did you not read overnight at all?

[VP Baltar]

Did you not read overnight at all?

oh hey, this reminds me of the fact that scorpious entered the day complaining about how many pages there are and how he didn't read, after a period of 48 hours where there we absolutely no posts, isn't that wild haha

To be fair, I often avoid reading during night because of the flawed reasoning that I might die of someone else unexpected might die which would change things.
Of course, I am just lazy, but it’s not hard to come up with a bad excuse!

Same, honestly.

None of that applies if you replace in and have more than 100 pages to catch up on. Not the same situation

[VP Baltar]

Luminary are you pushing Malcolm now, what is happening?

I will say, Frogster's aloofness in this game is very different from his town play in the last game.

What's up with that Frog? You've seemed not super engaged with the flow of the game for awhile now.

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, VP Baltar, Eyes without a face, April Ludgate, Skitter

^
correct vote pool

You're starting to make me suspicious again. Are you actualky reading the day?

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, VP Baltar, Eyes without a face, April Ludgate, Skitter

^
correct vote pool

You're starting to make me suspicious again. Are you actualky reading the day?

i am. What's making you sus?

Because your reads are very static. This is essentially the same pool you stated overnight in the hood I believe. Feels very safe for you to camp on and take pot shots at considering no one seems to care all that much.


VOTE: frogster BTW.

Will do this iso today, but frog was like losing his mind going after people for all kinds of tinfoil shit our last game where he was town and this game he is barely a presence. Idgi

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: frogster

not loving the fact that it feels like everyone and their mother is defending scorp, but let's see what happens here

Vote scorp then? Why follow me?

[VP Baltar]

Do my reads have to change?

If town, then likely yes.

Everything in your post after this is bloat.

[VP Baltar]

Sorta think that town are the ones that will have stronger opinions and scum are the ones that wil be more open willing to change on the drop of a a hat-you know that you and dats

Not true at all. Bad town of course will latch onto reads and death tunnel and conf bias, but scum feel obligated to create reasons to change reads. That's work. And people are lazy.

Anyhow, mafia theory debate isn't useful. If you're town, convince me why I should be voting skitter. Or Eyes for that reason. You're not doing that, as evidenced by the fact no one is following you.

[VP Baltar]

April, why are you TR Cape again?

[VP Baltar]

You're not doing that, as evidenced by the fact no one is following you.

*shrug*

There have been plenty of times when I've gone after scum and haven't been sheeped. But you are the leading wagon so...

Getting me to be a minor ass wagon on D2 is about as hard as getting rid of free pizza. (Also, would argue you actually did almost nothing to get this wagon)

You think you're truly going to get me limmed today with some lazy vote campers?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah I hate the sudden flurry with no case.

Which of the votes do you question?

Malcom, can you link the game you're referring to?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah I hate the sudden flurry with no case.

Which of the votes do you question?

Malcom, can you link the game you're referring to?

All of them

[VP Baltar]

Yeah I hate the sudden flurry with no case.

Which of the votes do you question?

Malcom, can you link the game you're referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88932

Here you go. As I say only time we've played together and their approach was basically identical to this early on. They got a stronger read towards the end of the game though so not a completely neutral approach, but a lot of kinda softball questions and stuff like that.

Is that the same though? This game he pushed Yeet almost all of D1 out of an RVS vote, and then followed tenebros onto fua/enchant (which I would assume you'd find interesting)

In the game you linked he pushed Galron semi-aggressively early on, and had some tinfoil things like voting Not Mafia. He definitely has some softballs that game too, but I'm not certain it is analogous. Compare the ISOs directly

[VP Baltar]

Not necessarily identical but more just the general posting style seems similar. Frogster's definitely been less engaged this game I'd say but a lot of the softball questions and the like which helped sparked sudden interest in them don't feel out of character.

The not really voting is the more concerning (though related) part. He isn't trying to do stuff, which seems atypical from what I just saw from frogger

[VP Baltar]

Actually, I’m not sure I love this wagon anymore? I think I’ll stick around a bit just to see what happens.

What changed from 15 mins ago?

[VP Baltar]

Re skim of ISO, weird naked adamance in pushing me
Skimming Malcolm’s provided ISO
Math’s adamance against the wagon

Enough to make me think it’s certainly possible this is town!Frogster.

These are terrible reasons to lose spine on a wagon, and especially to townread frogster

[VP Baltar]

I've gotten this feedback many times before in games or social situations after the size of the group is increased. I'm experiencing heightened feelings of vulnerability in this game so far compared to other games because of the high speed and large player count. It's observant of you but NAI and possibly scum motivated to push.

Do you have meta that backs this up?

[VP Baltar]

frogster pinged me in my catch up but i'm a little wary of the wagon so far

Why?

[VP Baltar]

why'd he ping or why i'm wary of the wagon

Wary of the wagon. I get not liking Yeet's waffling, but I think what I'm picking up on here is real.

[VP Baltar]

frogster pinged me in my catch up but i'm a little wary of the wagon so far

Why?

i guess my best answer to both is i'm concerned more about yeet than i am about frogs at this point

Ok, fair

[VP Baltar]

but I think what I'm picking up on here is real.

is this your strongest scumread at the moment? what other scumreads do you have?

I still want to yeet the fuck out of cape, but that was going nowhere. People are willing to give him a pass today even though he is doing nothing and had a very questionable hammer yesterday, as I've explained.

If I was going to compromise on something, I might be willing to back a tenebros wagon, but I go back and forth there.

[VP Baltar]

“I reskimmed their ISO and reevaluated them, read an example of their townplay”, these are bad reasons but themselves?

I looked at his iso here, the game Malcom linked, and the recent game I played with frog. It's not a convincing point that he is town.

[VP Baltar]

Pretty much all of HEM’s scumreads are wagons or sussed
Namely tene Scorpio and April. Skitter has her tell and stock equity goes way up if April is.

Been thinking about this today. I sort of think there are two possible things maybe going on here. Either:

1) it is close to what HEM thought and a lot of the low content/impact people are on the scum team.

Or

2) the scum are more well hidden than town has really pushed. Something like a Datisi/skitter or Cape/fire core.

I can see a HEM kill in either scenario, so that isn't too helpful. The wagon also doesn't help clarify a ton for me either.

If you have a strong inclination to do the low volume pool today Math, I may just give you my vote to use. Tenebros explanations maybe seem the most contrived, but his frustration also read sort of real. Idk

@fire - this is a very recent post from me that indicates where my head is at in terms of scum hunting. My frogster realization came after this obv.

Are you asking for like a ranked reads list or something?

[VP Baltar]

I think people had mentioned Frog like right b4 he voted though

What?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I think Frogster is being slept on after the very early game which felt kinda townie.

VOTE: frogster BTW.

Will do this iso today, but frog was like losing his mind going after people for all kinds of tinfoil shit our last game where he was town and this game he is barely a presence. Idgi

so it seemed a little opportunistic. + I don't think he ever mentioned frog up until that point and if he was meta scum reading Frog why was he just now mentioning it?

Why did you omit the context that Yeet was replying to my original suspicion. That's scummy af

[VP Baltar]

It's literally in the post you're quoting from

[VP Baltar]

Compared to the above example, there is more structure in this game because Mizzy and theworst are able to stay on top of the votes, but there is far more chaos underlying that structure here than what I experienced in the above example, so I imagine the change may be more noticeable and seem even more pushable than it did before.

I'll give these a read today. thanks.

[VP Baltar]

My townread on Frogsterking also kind of dropped.

@Yeet, this is the most substantive thing I see you saying about frog in your ISO before I brought him up. Is there something you thing I'm missing?

[VP Baltar]

i just want to know who you think looks scummy on an individual level. if you want to give a ranked list, go for it, that would answer my question, but it's not necessary, just give some names of who you individually scumread.

People who are scummy/I would yeet today:

Cape
Frogster
tenebros
.
.
.
.
skitter
Yeet
Eyes

(From top to bottom tier is increasingly compromising)

[VP Baltar]

on the subject of VP Baltar, now that's a scum who jumped on my wagon as they have a clear and defined agenda.

except I brought up suspicion of you before Yeet ever posted because it was overnight in the neighborhood. How's what you're saying even remotely true?

[VP Baltar]

hy you want . executed 4 times?

Never liked that guy

[VP Baltar]

hy you want . executed 4 times?

Never liked that guy

Why STD not in list?

I actually like dragons' more recent posting. I think there are a lot of lims I'd like to see before that today

[VP Baltar]

i mean i don't really trust the claim either but is that the best lim today? won't we only have more info tomorrow?

I go back and forth on this. We might, but if scum do have a RB, don't they just rb enchant again tonight?

Mayne we get lucky and lim the scum RB in that scenario though, which would be a point against an enchant lim

[VP Baltar]

VP, didn't you say you would address cape's case on you? Have you done so?

Hello? Is anyone home?

I did. Read the game. You expect me to reply to all 400 posts he links that are meaningless? Not going to happen.

[VP Baltar]

one day i'll have my fuechant wagon
one day

VOTE: scorpious

Why are you vote flopping so much? Like what is that achieving?

[VP Baltar]

Why are you scum leaning me again, fire? I know you've been vaguely name dropping me, but don't think I understand why.

[VP Baltar]

This is where I am at right now. I think I have too many town reads

town:

Frogsterking - 24, 71, 135, 194, 150

light town:

skitter30 - 33. 67. 172 bottom part sticks out a lot
Aristeia - 218 felt genuine. Voting monkey is good .
fireisredsir - 197 seems to take 178 a little too for granted. 87.
DeasVail - 110, 152, 168 for this last one, I think trying to randomly convince another person of a townread you have is town+.
GeneralWu

null:

Datisi (I will try again later idk),

light mafia:

tenebrousluminary - 116 just has a tone about it that I think looks not so great.

mafia:

humaneatingmonkey

206 makes me like fire and dislike frogs, mostly the townread on generalwu for those posts is questionable

False

both players look good off of that post.

Fire doesn't see it as a sort of joke read as I initially did.

Frogs somehow justifies this read GeneralWu as like "Huh do you mind elaborating why maf have more motivation to make friends than town?" which feels like such a stretch that it just wounds up being a towny stretch.

Wu needs to step the fuck up and start contributing to the game.

Okay coach. Make sure to tell him in your little "neighborhood"

VOTE: Cape

This seems sus for reasoning I think the foundation for will be apparent. Not sure how to explain it yet but I am hoping my wording will evolve into something people can understand.

Both I believe are a bit strange for different reasons, definitely would flip Nord over Wu, but I do kinda think Wu just kinda has been a nonpresence in the game.

I think that 2101 is an odd thing to comment on about the hood that they are not even a part of. Maybe they are trying to cool the discussion of this or just flat out know all 4 of us are town. Either way it feels like pretty empty speculation.

VOTE: GeneralWu

Latest postings from Eyes has been decent. I kinda like the double down on a... very meh post admittedly in 2427. I also kinda like 2404. I think General is a stronger vote then this and definitely Yeet

Also, fireisredsir defended me for a time, right?

this also looks like a WIFOM attempt at a frame job if General flips red

I think you are scum as people are defending you by attacking me versus explaining why they TR you.

You know, I think this might mean that some people defending me are scum.

There is also this which is pretty similar and is a bit generalized too

Here is Cape's full progression on Wu.

Has him as a light town read early on. Defends him a bit. Says he's been a nonpresence. Then votes him and gives three posts of reasoning why.

Like, I would totally buy "eh, I just wanted to end the day." The over explanation of the vote stinks. The progression of the read stinks. The not asking for a claim before hammering in a day when PRs got run up stinks.

Cape can go on and on about "VP is mean and has an agenda", but the facts are in Cape's posts and vote. That has nothing to do about agenda and if he was town, he'd spend his time explaining his thought process and reasoning rather than trying to shade me and act like he's a victim.

keep in mind, Yeet literally voted me first and VP literally passively called me town all of day 1.

I called you likely scum in the hood long before Yeet voted you. So what are you even saying here?

Yeah, I was never directly reached out about that. Maybe you should have literally asked me, especially if you think I am mafia for doing so, I am right there I literally can respond to you.

Oh yeah totally....

VOTE: Cape90 Let’s start with this greedy hammer vote. Sure it could be town miscounting but scum could totally use that as an excuse. I am unhappy that instead of running Wu up, we ended up straight hammering him, and I have seen scum just go for the kill because wifom. Why Cape is getting zero scrutiny is shocking to me.Plus they are in a hood with VP and Nero and skitter who I all believe to be stronger town than Cape atm.

VOTE: cape

Gonna be a min before I can catch up but this was also my read overnight.

Cape, can you explain how you went from calling Wu town to hammering him?

Also, why did you keep explaining your vote after you hammered?

OH SHIIIIIII......

Okay so I call Wu a "nonpresence" that isn't exactly the amazing townread you think it is

What I'm saying is that before that point you never expressed any interest whatsoever in voting Wu. You didn't push him on the previous wagons. You barely acknowledged his existence other than a light town read and a mild defense in a separate argument.

Why did you not ask him to claim before your hammer? This is the third (?) time I've asked. Did you answer that and I missed it?

These are all responding to points cape brings up, and furthering the discussion about his giant post

[VP Baltar]

The "your better then this!" thing seems forced in at 684.
In 750 VP was talking about how Nero was having this read on GeneralWu's fluffposting calling that "whatever". Anyway, oddly enough in 1293 they vote Wu, cool, so as a sidestep, how does that progress? 1344, 1939 (woah calm down there buddy, I thought Wu was "whatever" ). 1940, 1952, you know, just a casual getting aggressive, also HEM was mega towny at this point, especially with MathBlade on board so as they say in like middle school or something, ratio. gottem. 1995 Gotta ask Ari twice I guess. 2004, 2009, and then they just 2222 they, they.. they... vote yeet?? Oh let's ignore 2214 though . Well, there was 2381. But then like, a post later, they just... kinda swap back to GeneralWu (2388) who I still don't really get why VP pushed here. Also wouldn't Wu be the logical play? You said so yourself 2128.

If I'm giving Cape the benefit of the doubt here, this is so stream of conscious and aimless when it comes to speaking to actual scum motivation from me that is perhaps possible he just spent his morning building this post rather than my original thought that his wall was a honed attack at me. Could be emotional reaction from him to being voted and he is OMGUSing me.

[VP Baltar]

This is all pretty easy to find in my ISO

[VP Baltar]

Save 2807, those seem like mainly just trying to discredit him to me, but okay

Discredit him how? By calling his points bad and explaining why? What, specifically, do you think I have not addressed that should be?

[VP Baltar]

I did a quick skim and did not find the above. I also recall you acknowledging this and saying you would address it when you had more time.

Did it look like this:

Compared to the above example, there is more structure in this game because Mizzy and theworst are able to stay on top of the votes, but there is far more chaos underlying that structure here than what I experienced in the above example, so I imagine the change may be more noticeable and seem even more pushable than it did before.

I'll give these a read today. thanks.

Who are your scum reads and why?

[VP Baltar]

Why are you scum leaning me again, fire? I know you've been vaguely name dropping me, but don't think I understand why.

1) as an overall trend, the biggest thing for me is that i think a lot of your reads and takes feel pretty surface level in a way that lacks the nuance i would expect from an experienced player. like a prime recent example is 3266, hard to believe you really think that is scum-indicitave for nero, and why call it scummy if it's not? a few other recent examples are 2648, 2685, 2706, 2824

2) some of your pushes and interactions with people feel forced and artificial. 684, 1040, 1194, 1208 are examples. not a big deal imo but it pings (ping ping ping) a lil bit

3) didn't like the way you were leaving your options wide open and dancing around committing to specific scumreads today.

4) even yesterday i didn't really get the feeling you honestly believed wu was that scummy? just felt like you were filling the "good townie" role of herding people towards consolidating wagons (on 2 town btw), and then later you were just saying it was the "logical play" (2128) and that "we will get a lot of information" (1939), but then after the flip, you say "the wagon doesn't help clarify a ton for me" (2988), so i guess it wasn't a good information flip after all?

5) i don't really buy your cape suspicion, just doesn't feel genuine. like, 3249? tell me that's honest. you think he's maf cause of his hammer and that he has "done nothing" despite him being way more involved today? it feels like you feel obligated to be sus of him due to his case on you but it just doesn't feel like your heart is in it at all.

1) Gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. The posts you're linking (nero intentionally removing context from a quote to shade me, for example) are absolutely worth me calling out. Might seem minor to you, but I do think there is scum in my neighborhood somewhere probably, and I'm going to push on things I don't like to try to flush that out and feel more confident in my own reads there. In terms of the other examples you cite, scum do actions that are contradictory to things they say in the game all the time. I call those out so either A) scum feel pressure or B) town doing stupid shit explain their thought process.

2) "feel forced" is another way to say "gut". I don't agree, but also can't really respond to that in any kind of concrete way.

3) How was I leaving my options open? I responded with a very concrete list when you asked. If I was leaving options open, I would have put far more people as potentials for me. I listed three stronger preferences.

4) I think that's a more fair point. I did come away from the Wu wagon thinking Cape and Yeet perhaps don't look great off it, but that's fewer reads than I was hoping when I went back overnight to look at the wagon and why people got on it. I was actually hoping for a scum flip though...that is what felt like it would have been very informative from it given the cycle of stagnation and resistance that wagon faced. You're correct that part of what i was doing yesterday was herding though. In my experience of larges, getting people to the finish line D1 is helpful for town in the long run. The Wu wagon could still prove to be more informative in the long run, but we'll need more dead bodies on it. (also why Fua failing to kill last night is kind of disappointing).

5) Cape is not doing much today. His case on me was not good if you actually read it, it's just large, which people too often conflate with "good". I addressed anything that would even remotely objectively be considered to be a real point, and showed why they are not good. Who is Cape pushing today? Other than popping in to say "anyone like an april wagon", I haven't seen him do much to further the game today. The fundamental consideration with Cape is whether you believe he didn't actually see the pile of votes on Wu before he hammered. After I deeply questioned him on this, I can maybe see a world where he did not, but if he's town I'd like to see a lot more from him today to help me get there in believing that.

[VP Baltar]

i had to ask you three times, and your first two responses felt like dodging the question. the final list was fine, im talking about how you felt reluctant to give one, and weren't really stating many scumreads until I asked you about it

I don't agree and I think the way you were asking questions was not really clear, which is why I asked follow ups to clarify what you were actually wanting. I'm not a mind reader.

[VP Baltar]

Save 2807, those seem like mainly just trying to discredit him to me, but okay

Discredit him how? By calling his points bad and explaining why? What, specifically, do you think I have not addressed that should be?

You going to answer this tenebros?

[VP Baltar]

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

[VP Baltar]

if you're sus of him bc of his case on you being bad just say that. that's what i FEEL from you, but your words give other reasons that are kinda weak and don't feel like you really care about them that much. it smells like someone who does genuinely think the case is bad, and is annoyed about that, but doesn't want to sus for that bc that would look bad or something. and that smells more like maf to me

I don't think his response to immediately OMGUS me with some

le sigh

wall because I pushed on him is a super town response.

Think about this from my perspective: I telegraphed overnight in the hood that I was going to come at cape. I vote him for reasons I made clear ahead of time, and his response is to go super overboard trying to shade me with a lot of filler that is NAI. That is supposed to look good to me? Obviously I have a bias here, but I don't think I've treated cape unfairly in the slightest.

[VP Baltar]

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

it's not that it's towny because it's not good, it's towny cause it feels, as you called it, "stream of consciousness and aimless". it's kinda disorganized but it shows a clear thought process. idk cape meta cause he only has a few games and all are town but it does fit in pretty well with how he posts as town from what ive read

Yeah, I mean, the aimlessness of that mid section of the case could be town. It could also just be trying to make a thin post look beefier, but if I'm being generous with cape, that is why I would lean town there if I was going to.

It of course feels more like bullshit to me because I can see my role PM.

[VP Baltar]

Why the enchant hard town read?

[VP Baltar]

fua and cape hammered Wu last night when I wasn't here and today dats, VP and Yeet threw down 3 rapid fire votes on Frog and I said I didn't like it so he's complaining that I didn't say anything about the hammer last night?

The problem seems to be you taking issue with rapid voting on a wagon that is nowhere near a yeet and not with an actual, you know, miselim.

[VP Baltar]

YOU were the one that pushed the mislim the hardest though

I'm just explaining what datisi is saying to you because you seem to NOT GET IT

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: tenebros

Ok, bye then.

[VP Baltar]

VP did you read my post yet?

No. Did you answer my question of who your scum reads are and why yet?

[VP Baltar]

I wasn't planning to, no.

is there a reason you are refusing or are you just saying: "no, I will not answer this" ?

The question is asking for a lot of effort and I would rather just drop the topic than give it.

It's not a lot of effort for me to ask you to give me specifics instead of generalizations that are shading me. It's only a lot of effort if you're making shit up and don't have actual reasons for what you're saying.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, Noraa is hyperposting as scum in this game to dominate the thread and create confusion. The speed of the game became much faster than the setup would indicate:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=84085&start=1625

Eh, in this one you are definitely voting and poking people a lot more than you are here. You have reads and you're pursuing them, even if noraa is spamming the thread. I can see how it slows a bit in later days, but the hunting is still there

[VP Baltar]

The game is chaotic to the extent there is a point in the game when the mod is unable to determine whether or not there has been a hammer. You can get some sense of the chaos by reading the mod iso:
viewtopic.php?p=12086810&user_select%5B%5D=33505#p12086810

This...is the same game as the first you linked

[VP Baltar]

Scum were planning to case me because of my decreased presence in the thread making me seem like a good mislim target. Scum tunnel me though as the last town power role and they convince themselves my behavior change is because of my role:
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=84243&start=25

Scum are so convinced my decreased presence is due to my role they make a play that puts them in autolose if they're unable to kill the final TPR. Town then wins the game because I'm killed and our last power role is able to survive the night.

Oh I see you're trying to point me to specific moments in this single game.

Eh, I don't think your play in that game is that analogous to this one. This game you linked is also 2 years old. Do you have any more current examples of games where you were town and lost for reads/asking a lot of softball questions without pushing in any directions?

[VP Baltar]

Also Datisi, I kinda see this and I think your full of it, your cocky

naw just scum

You're scum reading Dats now?

[VP Baltar]

Anyway, what is the mindshift?

the mindshift where you voted me very easily in that blitz game, and hell voted generalwu very easily on d1, but seemed very timid in actually playing a vote down on baltar

It should be very obvious after the blitz game why I would be hesitant voting someone after a big wallpost I made

Can you explain for me? I wasn't in that game.

[VP Baltar]

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table.

Not Voting (2): Frogsterking

[VP Baltar]

First of all, I'm not lost for reads I've nearly PoE'd half the table.

Can you like remind me who your scum reads are? I read your game first, which I guess is a condition for answering this question.

[VP Baltar]

before I tipped you off.

Lol OK yeah, I'm sure.

When did you start scum reading me?

[VP Baltar]

before I tipped you off.

Lol OK yeah, I'm sure.

When did you start scum reading me?

When Malcolm was patiently explaining to you why the meta read doesn't make sense and you didn't bother to fake any kind of recognition or reaction

What? I your iso in the game he linked and explained why that is not the same as your play here.

But follow up, why were you afraid of "tipping me" when your vote is just in reaction to me scum reading you? What was your concern there?

[VP Baltar]

but I think what I'm picking up on here is real.

is this your strongest scumread at the moment? what other scumreads do you have?

I still want to yeet the fuck out of cape, but that was going nowhere. People are willing to give him a pass today even though he is doing nothing and had a very questionable hammer yesterday, as I've explained.

If I was going to compromise on something, I might be willing to back a tenebros wagon, but I go back and forth there.

what's your case for scumCape?

I'm more convinced of frogster than Cape right now given the last several pages, but if I was summing up cape, I would say:

1) his hammer yesterday was not good, and then he kept explaining after the hammer, which looked like more effort than was actually needed. (His defense here is that he did not allegedly know he was hammering)

2) I told him overnight I thought he didn't look great off the wu wagon. I voted him today. He responded with a giant "case" on me that is both bad, and didn't contain a vote on me for some reason? (He voted after I called him on that part).

3) he has not done anything of note today other than to join the Nero shade parade of VP.

It's not a slam dunk case by any means, which is why I think this frogger progression is much more interesting rn.

[VP Baltar]

And yes I know I'm voting tenebros. He is just fucking annoying and maybe scum

[VP Baltar]

April, when you have a minute, I'd love your take on frogster

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: frogster

More comfortable with this lim I think.

[VP Baltar]

And full disclosure Yeet, Datisi, Eyes, Skitter, Dragons, and April are the other slots I still need to sort.

Sorry for the late follow up (juggling work stuff while trying to stay up to date with this game is alot), am I correct in understanding that you think all the scum are in this pool and me? You're town sorting everyone else, correct?

[VP Baltar]

I don't like townhunting as a goto I just feel like there are a lot of posts and conflicts in this game and I keep getting townreads.

What do you mean by "conflicts in this game"?

[VP Baltar]

I don't like townhunting as a goto I just feel like there are a lot of posts and conflicts in this game and I keep getting townreads.

What do you mean by "conflicts in this game"?

Arguments and fights

Hrm. Trying to understand your thinking here. What makes the fighting in this game different from any other game?

[VP Baltar]

1) his hammer yesterday was not good, and then he kept explaining after the hammer, which looked like more effort than was actually needed. (His defense here is that he did not allegedly know he was hammering)

Weren't you just making the case that I "had" to try hard today or something just earlier today?

I'm not following whatever point you're trying to make here.

[VP Baltar]

I don't remember if it was you or Yeet but I am pretty sure that one of you said something like "oh Cape HAS to try hard today if he is scum because of the hammer he made yesterday". Which I suppose isnt a wrong take I guess. But now according to you I... tried too hard. Should I have just tried less though? I had more free time this day 2

I don't think that was me

[VP Baltar]

April, looking through Malcolm and VP, I would feel better about eliminating VP at this point. Was there a particularly compelling reason you had for not eliminating VP? Apologies if I've missed it.

There's no actual case. That's the most compelling case for not eliminating me.

I'm fairly-annoyed at how badly town is playing here, but will try to answer questions before this laziness slumps toward my elim, which is what is happening.

[VP Baltar]

Read fire's case at my response. That's the strongest reasoning that has been stated toward eliminating me today, and half of it is "feeling". The good news is if I'm dead, yall will see I'm right

[VP Baltar]

*fires case and my response

[VP Baltar]

That’s possible but no offense to VP he’s not a power wolf

*joins wagon on town with his scumreads

*sips matini and makes old rich lady level comments about my play ability.

It hurts

[VP Baltar]

Last general appeal, and then I need to move on with my morning so I can stop being annoyed:

Look at actions in the game. Who are the people DOING things that are scummy. So many new people on this site get obsessed with personality rather than actions. Actions are louder than words. I can't help yall beyond that.

[VP Baltar]

v/la 24 hours

ended up falling ill, and i'm not able to think. i'll see if i feel better tomorrow.

That sucks. Feel better!

[VP Baltar]

Who are these SCUM that are doing scummy things?

I've spent all day calling out people doing actually scummy things.

Meanwhile, you're running a marketing campaign to make me a popular yeet by just saying "vp is scum" as many times as you can without actual reasons behind it. If you're scum, good on you. This works in 90% of games I play on this site because people here respond to repetition without thought. I see scum use this tactic all the time, and it's pretty silly, but whatever. There's not much effective defense for this kind of play because it requires the followers to actually think about what they are responding to.

Don't act like I'm being hysterical here and haven't been making very clear points about who I think is scum and why. You know I've been clear.

[VP Baltar]

So you think town are the ones that are wagoning you and there's not scum on you? Do you think that scum are just going to stay off you and let town mislim you or ???

Never said town are the ones wagoning me. There are certainly town on me though. Math voted with his scum reads! That's the level of play happening currently.

Why are you asking me such stupid questions btw? What are you hoping to achieve?

[VP Baltar]

I do think VP is scummy and is a decent elimination today but I do think there could be scum in Apri, Eyes, Skitter, Enchant and maybe Dats

This process of walking back will continue as I get closer to dead. Expect to see scum both A) sluff off my wagon near its conclusion and B) soft defend me for town points at my inevitable green flip.

[VP Baltar]

Nero, what's your bullet point case on me again?

[VP Baltar]

Quickly please. Should be easy

[VP Baltar]

pushed all town with the exception of maybe Fua day 1.
hypocritical stances and I don't think you actually believed in your Wu push yesterday. He was just an EZ push
manipulation
can't decide on a hood stance

I don't feel bad about the Wu yeet.

Once your reads are not good this game, so not sure how you think me pushing some town on D1 is scummy. Literally a point that can almost always be made about any town player D1.

Manipulation? Wtf does that even mean. Who am I manipulating?

My hood stance has never changed. So nice lies!

[VP Baltar]

pushed all town with the exception of maybe Fua day 1.
hypocritical stances and I don't think you actually believed in your Wu push yesterday. He was just an EZ push
manipulation
can't decide on a hood stance

I don't feel bad about the Wu yeet.

Also your reads are not good this game, so not sure how you think me pushing some town on D1 is scummy. Literally a point that can almost always be made about any town player D1.

Manipulation? Wtf does that even mean. Who am I manipulating?

My hood stance has never changed. So nice lies! /quote]
This is not a good case, like every case that's been brought against me today, it is hot air that has almost nothing to do with game actions.

[VP Baltar]

April, looking through Malcolm and VP, I would feel better about eliminating VP at this point. Was there a particularly compelling reason you had for not eliminating VP? Apologies if I've missed it.

There's no actual case. That's the most compelling case for not eliminating me.

I'm fairly-annoyed at how badly town is playing here, but will try to answer questions before this laziness slumps toward my elim, which is what is happening.

You seem experienced enough to know that "wah, no case" is a classic scum defense, and yet.

Remember when you threw a hissy fit in the thread because I asked you to give specifics on the nonsense you were saying? Good times.

[VP Baltar]

yeah, again, this is where VP's insinuations don't match what he's actually saying. when asked to commit to some actual individual scumreads, he lists 6 people (3297) and none of them are nero, but here he's discrediting nero in a way that can only imply that he thinks nero is scum. it's just shade for the sake of shade and he doesn't actually believe it. i don't know why anyone would do that unless they're maf

No mostly I'm just very mad. Nero has been shading me since yesterday for no actual reason, and even when I tried to offer him an olive branch to work with him, he just straight ignored me.

Nothing pisses me off more than when I put a bunch of effort into a game trying to work with people and they continue to say stupid shit and tunnel. So yeah, notice I have never voted Nero. But I am going to call him out for saying things that make no sense. He could be scum or he could just be honorary scum here. Idk.

It's hard for me to think scum is this tunneled, but also this game would be easy mode for scum right now.

[VP Baltar]

Cool discredit VP. Got anything else?

Would you like me to quote the posts for you?

[VP Baltar]

The "town is playing bad" feels like a classic deflection - makes posters on the fence second guess where they stand in an attempt to sway it.

Nah, just the math vote is kind of the last straw for me. I'm not going to put a bunch of effort into something I've already dedicated a lot of time to for very few results. I don't need to spend half my work day trying to convince lazy townies to actually critically think about the arguments being presented. I've pressed people to articulate their reasons. I've posted rebuttals to those reasons and pointed out why they are bad.

What else am I supposed to be doing here in your eyes? As I stated before, my flip is going to justify everything I'm saying.

[VP Baltar]

Regardless of how you characterize that interaction (and I disagree), bringing it up in response to my unrelated point is discrediting.

Discrediting what? What you said was pointless, and I brought up a tangible reason why you are much more likely to be scum than me (you can't actually explain your positions with details, only broad statements). Seems pretty relevant.

[VP Baltar]

I'd be intrigued to know VP's thoughts on how April has played the game so far, and what they make of what I thought was April's fairly flimsy mafia case against me.

My thoughts on the Ari slot:

I didn't really have a scum read on Ari. I could see an argument being made against this slot, but their frustration with the game also struck me as genuine.

As for April's case on you, IDK. April plays and thinks about the game very differently than me. I don't find it all that convincing, but I do appreciate pressure being applied in novel places today.

The biggest point against April I think is that she could be scum trying to pocket me. I found it a little weird that she agreed that my Cape case was decent, when what I posted would actually take a little time to fact check to see if what I was saying was accurate. Could be laziness, and April certainly had other things to reread, but given where she put me on her list, I'd think she'd want to check out my thoughts for accuracy/scum motivation.

[VP Baltar]

. I don't have a meta on you but you seem experienced...do you think calling townies lazy is likely to get them onside?

No, but I also don't have the WIM at the moment. Like I said, the the math vote has me tilted for the sheer nonsense.

I'll take a break right now, get some coffee and try to not be mad so I can respond if people have actual questions.

[VP Baltar]

does town imply that they think cape's case is bad and scummy and frustrating while stating that he is a top scumread for unrelated reasons, while also never really pushing there in earnest?

This us an incredible misrep. I did push there. It was how I spent the first half of my day. People are obviously not eager to join a cape wagon. I understand to some degree that there isn't a slam dunk case there, so I can only point out what I see. I'm not going to act belligerent about getting my way if I'm not managing to convince people with the facts I've pointed out repeatedly.

As far as Nero and do I call out his case as being BS reasons and a smear campaign even if I think he might be town? yes! Of course I do. Some town players do this and act as honorary scum, as previously stated. Pointing out how bunk what he is saying actually is does not reflect poorly on me, and you saying it does is kind of bullshit.

[VP Baltar]

I don't hate this line of reasoning actually, would be a clever play from April if you're town and eventually get eliminated.

I'm fairly sure that tactic is pretty explicitly stated in Flavor's guide to scum.

I'm not saying that is definitely what happened, but if I do die today, it should be remembered in the future.

I don't love calling it out because it isn't like I have many allies in this game rn, but I need to assume I will die and plan for town's long term success here.

[VP Baltar]

you know the case looks towny even if it's not very good

What does this mean?

[VP Baltar]

you don't really believe he's scum, so why did you do it?

He could be scum here, but I'm not entirely sold on that. Said this like 50 times. I do think Nero waffling very slightly on my wagon is worth calling out because he did the same thing in a more dramatic fashion yesterday. Anyone who pushes a wagon and then backs away at the moment of truth gets scum points.

Like, what you're saying is a completely absurd statement that essentially boils down to "do not point out things that are potentially scummy unless you are ready to go all in on calling that person scum".

You know very well that's not true and you're either being biased here or trying to score what you think are easy points to get my wagon over the hump. I can point out a bunch of times this game you were implying I did scummy things without actually calling me scum. So I don't even get what the point you're trying to make is.

[VP Baltar]

Some town players do this and act as honorary scum

learn some personal responsibility or something, shesh.

Yeah ok. You've played like shit all game if you're town but clearly that's on me.

Seems like you're just trying to get me tilted, but I don't fall for bait like that. Better than you have tried.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah ok. You've played like shit all game if you're town

I mean maybe?

I thought Wu was scummy and then I was less sure when there was meta evidence presented for why he wasn't scum and then you and Skitter continuously ignored that and said I was scummy for not having a static read. Meanwhile, you pushed least 3 town in me, Wu and HEM. Maybe you could make the argument that Wu was so bad that he needed to be flipped and that it was good play on your part but if you are town I don't see what's great about you so stop being a pot or w/e identify as.

Like I said, I don't regret pushing the Wu yeet. He was a low utility player who had a non-zero chance of flipping scum, and who a lot of people talked about, meaning there is higher potential for future information as slots on that wagon get revealed.

If you are actually town here, I have reached out to you more than once to try and resolve these differences we have in seeing the game and you keep trying to take cheap, stupid shots at me. Be more mature and talk to me if you want me to engage you again. I asked you for your perspective on skitter awhile back now and you just basically ignored me. It's incredibly frustrating to me if you're actually town in this scenario because I make good faith efforts to think about your alignment, and there is no reciprocation. And I don't really want to have pointless convos that just bloat the thread.

[VP Baltar]

FWIW, I don't need people to defend me.

Nero, how do you think Eyes' read on me should have progressed? I kind of get what you're saying, but it also feels kind of like you're just giving him shit because he doesn't agree with you.

[VP Baltar]

If you are actually town here, I have reached out to you more than once to try and resolve these differences we have in seeing the game and you keep trying to take cheap, stupid shots at me. Be more mature and talk to me if you want me to engage you again. I asked you for your perspective on skitter awhile back now and you just basically ignored me. It's incredibly frustrating to me if you're actually town in this scenario because I make good faith efforts to think about your alignment, and there is no reciprocation. And I don't really want to have pointless convos that just bloat the thread.

Nero, do you feel like you're bad faithing me at all this game if you take a second to consider I'm town?

[VP Baltar]

I don't care if he agrees with me or not just that town reading you off of your 15th post makes him look informed and not really paying attention to the game.

Yeah, it's lazy. Maybe informed, but could also just be holding onto reads. I don't really know. Are you saying you want to flip Eyes today?

[VP Baltar]

I could have conf bias but I'm not treating you in bad faith.

why have you repeatedly not engaged with me when I've tried to do things like talk about your skitter read then? I feel like when I am trying to set aside your nonstop surface level spamming of calling me scum and try to actually talk to you, you're just nonresponsive. That doesn't feel like good faith from my perspective.

[VP Baltar]

then how can you town read me? You basically just keep calling me scum here but you won't push. Why?

I think your bad faith is more likely just really bad town play and tunneling. You've stuck with it too long, considering you're going to look like shit if I ever flip. Scum you would know that. (Which is also why i think if you back off too late on my wagon it is +scum for you). I don't really get OMGUSy too often with people for bad reads. That doesn't make a person scum automatically.

What I've been trying to get you to do when I engage is for you to actually think about the arguments you're making and see why they are not good.

[VP Baltar]

You know that I never unvoted, right?

Yes, I called it out before it could even rise to an issue. If you're going to snipe me all game, I expect you to follow through. I'm not going to leave the door open for a scummy backpedal at the last minute to give plausible deniability in a clear misyeet distraction today. If you do happen to be scum here, you would have gotten away with your Wu backpedal.

If you are town, clearly you are going to let your ego get in the way of thinking critically about your own play here, so we can just move on.

[VP Baltar]

I didn't backpedal on Wu. There was contradicting evidence and I listened to that. Like I said earlier if you thought Wu was so bad that he needed to be that d1 elimination then fine? He played pretty poorly down the stretch and I was more than ok with his elimination. But still, that's not a backtrack, and claiming that it is one is a horrible misrep and/or treating

ME

in bad faith.

You won't vote me b/c I'm not the path of least resistance.

sure.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar when was the last time you got elimmed as either town or scum?

Um, as town I would need to check. I usually get NKed eventually. As scum, I think it is like WAY back in 2020 when I rolled scum against Datisi and that was late game, like D4 or 5.

I can get you specifics if you want. I don't have a good memory for games. It's pretty rare I get limmed overall though.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar when was the last time you got elimmed as either town or scum?

Um, as town I would need to check. I usually get NKed eventually. As scum, I think it is like WAY back in 2020 when I rolled scum against Datisi and that was late game, like D4 or 5.

I can get you specifics if you want. I don't have a good memory for games. It's pretty rare I get limmed overall though.

Ah forgot this game. I got limmed as town in LimLo because Toog instavoted me for no discernable reason right at the day start. viewtopic.php?p=13168613#p13168613

That was in December and the last time I was limmed as any alignment.

[VP Baltar]

The other main thing for me is the Day 2 vote progression. I don't like the vote on tenebros in 3392 nor the rationalisation in 3479. I think it's fairly obvious that a big part of VP voting tenebro (as town or scum) would be because it was a more popular wagon than VP's other scumreads, yet VP seems to avoid admitting that, and the change of vote in 3502 seems to be pretending that the fact that the tenebro wagon fell apart is not why VP's changing his vote.

I don't think it is accurate to say that I only voted tenebros because his wagon is bigger (though of course I don't want to be eliminated here). I had tried to engage with tene several times before that and ask questions to understand their play, all while tene was being somewhat antagonistic to me.

As to your second point, that's just silly. I started the frogster wagon and it was never more popular than the tene wagon. What you're saying just isn't in line with votes. I could have just stayed on tene, what is the scum motivation for me to get off that?

[VP Baltar]

Not sure why you would think that you could have just stayed on tene

He's a more popular target than frog very clearly.

[VP Baltar]

Like, that's a no brainer.

[VP Baltar]

If I'm scum in that situation, I could just sit back and see how the day develops and wind town!tenebros up into more emotional outbursts. Instead, I choose to go back to a wagon I think has an actual strong case that isn't super popular.

The key to finding scum is to look at motivations. That's always the giveaway. There is no clear motivation there.

[VP Baltar]

The fact that you are pretending there are other viable scum play is concerning.

You already voted. Don't be so dramatic.

I'll get my final thoughts together here when I can. Think I'm at E-2 rn?

[VP Baltar]

You are in serious danger of being eliminated. Tenebro was a very viable alternative for you until I and then Fire backed off. At that point, sitting back will not work. Clearly the main pushers of the tenebro wagon were no longer reading their outbursts as scummy.

Also, just want you on record here, you're townreading tene now correct?

[VP Baltar]

Also I’ll be as dramatic as I like

I demand a feathered boa if you're going to insist.

[VP Baltar]

April, I'd like you to take a final position on my wagon please. Is this a good or a bad yeet for today.

Pedit - ok, why do you say that?

[VP Baltar]

Here's the thing, people don't like the case/reasoning I made. Big whoop, don't mean I'm not right. Wouldn't be the first time I was the only one standing up pushing a scumhead.

My energy the whole game. Anyway! No accounting for taste.

[VP Baltar]

I need to finish some work, and then I'll try to do a full wagon analysis before yall finish me off

[VP Baltar]

VPB, I think Frogster is probably town.

Might be! I think his play this game is dramatically different from my town play with him and in basically all the meta provided. Maybe he is struggling with the speed, but he has no true aggression or gusto for this game. His posting looks like he's trying to look active rather than trying to find scum.

[VP Baltar]

I think disagreeing with someone is perfectly valid and healthy for the game, but I think VP’s commentary on Nero goes beyond this, whilst truly thinking about Nero’s alignment takes a backseat

Above is @eyes

Do you think Nero or I is the lead instigator here? This is a wild ass take on those interactions. I've been extremely reasonable with Nero.

[VP Baltar]

Wagon analysis time:

VP Baltar (7): Scorpious, tenebrousluminary, Nero Cain, Frogsterking, fireisredsir, MathBlade, DeasVail (E-2)

Scorpious

This is obviously a trash vote. I asked him why he was voting me and this is what he said:

There aren’t any

Why did you vote me then?

Idk, someone said me and you were scum and said it was too easy..

Since I’m not you just be based on that logic.

Since then, Scorpious hasn't really said anything to me and has called the game state boring. He did state I'm a top scum read though. I guess because "someone" said it was him or me.

Very possible coasting scum here, but who knows with his play this game.

tenebrousluminary

Going back through my interactions with Tenebros, he maybe looks less scummy than I should have assessed him in the moment. What really set me off was the way he was egging on my fight with Cape with posts like this:

Uh oh, now it just sounds like you have an agenda neighbor!

You made that giant post after I called you out and you don't actually vote me?

Who you calling a coward?

For the record, I made a post last night about 30 mins before deadline expired calling out Cape because I didn't want my actual thoughts on the game to go to the grave with me. I figured if I ate a vig shot or something, at least someone who is town could carry on my concerns today.

Judging by the size and extent of that post Cape just made, it seems clear to me he started writing that response about at that point knowing I was going to come out of the gates at him today. The fact there is no vote there on a giant wall case makes no sense.

Did you plan on responding to its substance, or just shading Cape for writing it?

What tene is saying here is pretty scummy on its face in the sense that he's not talking about details, just trying to shade me and say Cape and I should be arguing more (we were already going at it). Cape's case was demonstrably not good, as multiple people besides me have said, but that's irrelevant to tene in his interactions with me.

HOWEVER....

In looking at tene and my interactions, I did notice this post and worry maybe I lost my objectively a little bit in that fight because tene was being kind of belligerent.

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I haven't found tenebros all that scummy, and fua did look like shit in that interaction, as well as for not killing/not claiming target this morning.

You seem very eager to shade me on flimsy reasons.

Anyhow, I think tene's vote on me is pretty lazy, but perhaps less scum inclined than I was feeling more presently.

Nero Cain

Not going to go super in depth here. I still think Nero is kind of a village idiot. He certainly deserves scrutiny after y'all see my flip, but if I'm looking for scum in the neighborhood, I think it's much more likely between skitter and Cape.

Frogsterking

I stand by my scum read here. Frogster was not even talking about me until I called him out for vote camping on Yeet D1, and then he planted an OMGUS vote on me and has once again become a non-entity in the thread.

I encourage anyone to contrast his play in this game with Mini 2258: viewtopic.php?t=88600&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Frogster was getting into in that game with almost anyone and everyone, and wildly going after scum reads to a point where he looked delusional and everyone could tell he was town. He's extremely timid and readless this game by comparison.

fireisredsir

To April's read about there being scum in fire and DV, I think fire is much more likely. His scumread of me today seems more opportunistic and his reasons are largely "feelings" based.

It's a little hard to tell because DV and fire are kind of playing off each other, but fire's vote is the follower here and he was kind of sniffing around my wagon for awhile before he put a vote down.

I think I have gotten myself into a tunnel and after a reassessment I am no longer sure of this read.

UNVOTE: Tenebro

Reading through tenebro’ Iso again, I am more inclined to think that the dismissive nature is an unhelpful way of communicating, but I don’t actually think it lines up with the scum-tenebro image that I had created for myself. If I thought that tenebro was scum trying to blend in and appease, then their approach to suspicion in fact does the opposite.

I am happy to discuss with anyone regarding this, and would particularly be interested if anyone thinks I am making a mistake in backing off this, but I think it’s more likely that tenebro-scum was a world I wanted to be true rather than one that actually is true.

yea ive been starting to feel this way as well. i wanted to keep the tene wagon leading to see if anyone would try to push it in, but eh might as well switch now. eyes is p much as good as voting there, with a townread on VP and a scumread on tene.

VOTE: VP Baltar

There's a timid nature in fire's play where he is playing off other people to express his suspicions. I felt like D1 he was being much more original in his thought process, but he's been pretty meh today. Example:

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

it's not that it's towny because it's not good, it's towny cause it feels, as you called it, "stream of consciousness and aimless". it's kinda disorganized but it shows a clear thought process. idk cape meta cause he only has a few games and all are town but it does fit in pretty well with how he posts as town from what ive read

MathBlade

Confirmed town obv. Disappointed in Math's play, but not surprised.

DeasVail

Like I said, I find DV more town out of him and fire. I think his vote is meh overall, but I don't detect a lot of malice. I've misread DV's town play in the past, iirc, so it's not surprising to me that he is making some wrong choices. Probably town and he can apologize to me in post game.


------

So final analysis is probably scum in Scorpious, Frogster and Fire on my wagon. If I'm guessing, probably only two of those and I'm wrong somewhere.

Off my wagon, I think there is likely a scum between skitter and Cape.

Final scum is a bit more wild card. I'm a big concerned that someone defending me is scum. April and Datisi are both smart enough to do that, so worth watching there long term, but I wouldn't lim either in the short term. Let their play and reads speak for them. I think Eyes is probably town being noble, but you never know. I think people will come after them for being TMI when I flip green, but I wouldn't necessarily buy it. Yeet is the other possible defender scum, and I did mark in my overnight look that Yeet and Cape were the biggest question marks for me on the Wu wagon. I probably should compare my wagon to Wu's and see if I need to update that. Yeet's defense of me feels a little more organic than Eyes for sure.

TL;DR - kill the scum that's been attacking and discrediting me today before you worry about the single scum who may have been defending me. Scum are going to want to focus on that smaller pool after my flip, but don't be fooled by that bullshit.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

What do you mean I'm not in danger of getting limmed? I was at E-2. That is pretty much the definition of in danger on D2 of a large.

[VP Baltar]

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

oh and i still think VP/malc is decently likely

In a hypo-VP&malc world, why would Malcom not just bus me here?

I find your stuff of my wagon very weird.

Why are you deciding you don't want me suddenly again?

[VP Baltar]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

[VP Baltar]

replace Cape with Malcolm, and this is the exact team I proposed earlier, VPB.

Scorpius, Malcolm, Fire, Skitter.

Definitely. I'll reread your Malcom case probably tomorrow to see how I feel about it. I'm still not sure, but I did find that one interaction with him that pinged me earlier, so I should pour over that time in the game again.

[VP Baltar]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

Tbh I was tempted by the wagon too because OOO SHINY and had to tell myself to stay strong

Lol, I do not understand.

But you have to admit, if you believe me and Malcom are scum, you'd have no reason to Switch wagons there.

[VP Baltar]

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

i think it's a possibility. and cause i think april has cool ideas and im a big fan of the sudden unexpected wagon to see if it throws scum off their balance

This is fake as fuck

[VP Baltar]

If the reasoning for Malcolm is that he's a partner with VP I'm not sure why we should stop voting VP?

Nero making actual sense

[VP Baltar]

If the reasoning for Malcolm is that he's a partner with VP I'm not sure why we should stop voting VP?

Nero making actual sense

He isn't actually, because that is hardly the main reasoning being used. Main pusher April does not even think that is what is happening.

No one is saying that's a reason to suspect Malcom. I'm saying fire isn't genuine given his flop off me, someone who he says is scum

[VP Baltar]

If the reasoning for Malcolm is that he's a partner with VP I'm not sure why we should stop voting VP?

Nero making actual sense

I've made plenty of sense this game its just that it's been about you and you're pouting

Nah, you are bad at mafia. It's fine. The stronger players will sort this game out.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: fireisred

[VP Baltar]

i didn't think you were that likely to be elimmed

If you're town!fire, and you see scum!vp at fucking E-2, do you ditch that wagon and then say "lol, this lim wasn't going to happen"?

That's insane! You barely have to do any kind of convincing to finish my lim at that point. Fire doesn't believe in what they are saying. These are votes of convenience and popularity. Fire is going with the flow and using other people's suspicions to drive his own, as I stated in my wagon analysis.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: fireisred

Nooooo not my vibe buddy!

You're getting played

[VP Baltar]

why do you think I'm convinced that you're scum? it's day 2 I'm not convinced of anything. there's enough things that you've done that i think are scummy that i would like to see you elimmed, but there's enough things you've done that are towny that I'm ok going another direction

You were plenty hot to trot on my wagon. You haven't pushed anywhere else since it became cool to push me. Then April comes in and pushes elsewhere and you're suddenly switching? Nah dawg, you're trying to get off a townie flip at the last min and didn't think it through.

[VP Baltar]

I think I have gotten myself into a tunnel and after a reassessment I am no longer sure of this read.

UNVOTE: Tenebro

Reading through tenebro’ Iso again, I am more inclined to think that the dismissive nature is an unhelpful way of communicating, but I don’t actually think it lines up with the scum-tenebro image that I had created for myself. If I thought that tenebro was scum trying to blend in and appease, then their approach to suspicion in fact does the opposite.

I am happy to discuss with anyone regarding this, and would particularly be interested if anyone thinks I am making a mistake in backing off this, but I think it’s more likely that tenebro-scum was a world I wanted to be true rather than one that actually is true.

yea ive been starting to feel this way as well. i wanted to keep the tene wagon leading to see if anyone would try to push it in, but eh might as well switch now. eyes is p much as good as voting there, with a townread on VP and a scumread on tene.

VOTE: VP Baltar

yeah, again, this is where VP's insinuations don't match what he's actually saying. when asked to commit to some actual individual scumreads, he lists 6 people (3297) and none of them are nero, but here he's discrediting nero in a way that can only imply that he thinks nero is scum. it's just shade for the sake of shade and he doesn't actually believe it. i don't know why anyone would do that unless they're maf

This us an incredible misrep. I did push there. It was how I spent the first half of my day. People are obviously not eager to join a cape wagon. I understand to some degree that there isn't a slam dunk case there, so I can only point out what I see. I'm not going to act belligerent about getting my way if I'm not managing to convince people with the facts I've pointed out repeatedly.

eh i think your iso tells a different story. the key word there is "earnest". you pushed him a little about his hammer, then he wallposted you, then you talked about how the wallpost was bad for a while, then a bit more about his hammer, then you moved on to other things. but anyway the main point is about your reasons, not about whether you pushed or not. when asked about it later you said he was your top scumread but that it was for how he acted around the hammer and that he had done nothing today. that's weak, and i don't believe that you believe that.

when you were arguing back against his wallpost, you were implying that he was scummy for it. but later, that apparently didn't factor into your scumread. i think that's because you know he's town, you know the case looks towny even if it's not very good, and so you didn't want to list it as a reason. you wanted to stick to the scummy actions of his, just like you're telling other people to do, those are safe and objective. that doesn't feel honest, doesn't feel like town

As far as Nero and do I call out his case as being BS reasons and a smear campaign even if I think he might be town? yes! Of course I do. Some town players do this and act as honorary scum, as previously stated. Pointing out how bunk what he is saying actually is does not reflect poorly on me, and you saying it does is kind of bullshit.

that's not what im talking about. you are obv allowed and expected to point out when a case made against you is bad even if he might be town. your mistake was in 3603. that's not pointing out BS reasons. that's creating a scum narrative for his play. and you and i both know that you don't really believe he's scum, so why did you do it? maf has motivation to appeal to the crowd and discredit his case, they don't have to be honest about how they feel. why would you do it as town?

considering i had eyes and yeet as top picks for VP partners idk if i can really endorse this

but maybe im wrong, idk

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

oh and i still think VP/malc is decently likely

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

oh and i still think VP/malc is decently likely

Interesting. I hadn't really thought about that pairing, but I can see some cases for it.

Malcolm hasnt hopped onto the VPB wagon, and VPB has shied away from Malcolm.

I'll keep it in the back of my mind, not necessarily feeling it, but it's something I'll think about.

I really liked VPB's last hurrah post.

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

Lol this guy says he isn't arguing I'm scum. Very unsure!

[VP Baltar]

if im hard committed to you as scum there is zero reason for me to peel off especially when you specifically called out beforehand that scum would do that

Yep, you fucked up. Sorry.

[VP Baltar]

oh and i still think VP/malc is

decently likely

Totally off hand comment and he thinks I'm possibly town!

[VP Baltar]

VP do you actually believe what you’re saying?

It almost feels like you’re trolling at this point.

I vote where I believe. Stop being a fire stan and think about what you're doing this game.

[VP Baltar]

Fire is stunlocked

[VP Baltar]

Fire is stunlocked

What does that mean?

He went quiet and doesn't have an actual reply to all the times he called me scum and yet bails off my wagon at the cusp of my green flip

[VP Baltar]

Lol this guy says he isn't arguing I'm scum. Very unsure!

didn't say that lol. obv i was arguing you were scum before. but i wasn't convinced, i never am

So you always argue people are scum up to e-2 that you're unsure about? How unsure were you?

[VP Baltar]

oh and i still think VP/malc is

decently likely

Totally off hand comment and he thinks I'm possibly town!

.......yes? that is accurate what's your point

I can't both be decently likely scum and you being unsure.

[VP Baltar]

Lol this guy says he isn't arguing I'm scum. Very unsure!

didn't say that lol. obv i was arguing you were scum before. but i wasn't convinced, i never am

So you always argue people are scum up to e-2 that you're unsure about? How unsure were you?

what kind of a question is this lmao? yes??? that's how mafia works?? everyone is always unsure

Mafia run from committing. Town are unafraid at the moment of limming

[VP Baltar]

(vp is stunlocked)

Nah, you boring. I've made my point, scumfuck

[VP Baltar]

How do people read Datisi?

Datisi is not an easy read. He is more likely to have controversial opinions as town,

[VP Baltar]

I think that team would be excellent because only VP is under suspicion.

I think maybe I win as scum a lot because I play scum differently?

If that was the team, this game would be so easy it'd be a joke.

[VP Baltar]

Also, yeah, Fire/DV has scum in them, VPB. Don't know which, but you're stuck in the center of it.

Don't worry, fam. I got you if you're town. I'm leaning into my lim for a reason. I'll flip green to set this game right

[VP Baltar]

Also, yeah, Fire/DV has scum in them, VPB. Don't know which, but you're stuck in the center of it.

Don't worry, fam. I got you if you're town. I'm leaning into my lim for a reason. I'll flip green to set this game right

I don’t think this is a good idea if you’re town.

People do this and it works at best 25-50% of the time

You play how you play, I play how I play. Scum want to come at me, I will make them do it head on and regret it long term.

Think about how I saved you last game. Scum were coming for me and you that day and we fucked them up because of my PR and you being cleared.

I'm not an easy lim and scum will have bloody noses out of it.

[VP Baltar]

Also like it or not, you have to face the fact that at least one of me/Fire is town.

So you are saying one of you is definitely scum? Also, how is this a fact?

[VP Baltar]

if this is true then why was my hammer scummy in the first place. Gottem LOL.

Like I said, if you had just said "wu needed to get got, and I killed him, so what?", I probably would have backed off you immediately.

I know you're teasing me here, but I do think town are more likely to show convictions at the end of a wagon than scum are.

[VP Baltar]

VP has stopped thinking about their reasoning and has started just spewing nonsense (see the attack on fire filled with logic holes and misinterpretations that others have obviously noticed).

Yes, fire makes nonsense moves with his vote based on his stated scum reads, but VP is irrational and a menace to society! You are so pocketed it's kind of sad, fmpov.

Nothing I said is a misinterpretation of what fire said. I quoted him directly. Those are his words for the world to see, not mine.

Further, the "others have obviously noticed" that you mention is you and fire essentially. So your using your own position to validate your position, which is pretty silly.

[VP Baltar]

It genuinely might be the worst theory of the game so far and I've rated most of Fire's posts

@deasvail - your town read's assessment of Fire's nonsense last night.

"Others have obviously noticed"

[VP Baltar]

Idk I just assumed

That’s not an assumption

That was stated as fact

VOTE: Yeet

If this flips red scum are also someone who played with me last game

Wait what? So you think yeet might be an alt, and that is why you think they are scum?

[VP Baltar]

Oh you think he has inside info fed from someone else in the other game.

Eh, I just assumed Yeet could be an alt that almost slipped.

[VP Baltar]

Deas’s townpoints on Malcolm are not convincing to me, but I am certainly biased there.

Let's assume Malcom scum, what does that say to you about who the rest of the scum team is?

[VP Baltar]

I haven’t thought that far yet, honestly

You can get back to me today, and I'll give this Malcom case an in depth assessment in exchange.

[VP Baltar]

Scorpious, why are you voting me?

[VP Baltar]

Scorpious, why are you voting me?

someone made a comment back in 1997 about the game solve is so easy and one of us us scum an it isn't me..

So it HAS to be you,no?

There is no mechanical reason to think one of us HAS to be scum if that's what you think.

[VP Baltar]

Scorpious, why are you voting me?

I promise I'm not trying to troll, I'm finding myself struggling to get into this game. I am attempting to follow, just been a crazy week.

Alright. I hope you can catch up on some stuff. Things to look at:

- April's case on Malcom
- Fire's inconsistent and internally dissonant thoughts on me being scum

[VP Baltar]

Also like it or not, you have to face the fact that at least one of me/Fire is town.

So you are saying one of you is definitely scum? Also, how is this a fact?

idk what happened in the last 24 hours to make you start not understanding what words mean but ig it's a pattern now

The pocket continues!

[VP Baltar]

"You said at least one. So you think there's exactly one?

This is not what I said. Read and try again.

(BTW, I write for a living, so I don't think you're going to win on a reading comprehension argument. I'd take a different approach if I was in your shoes.)

[VP Baltar]

"at least one in a group of two is town"

this means either 1 or 2 are town. conversely this means that either 0 or 1 are scum.

your response: "so you are saying one of you is definitely scum?"

that's uhhhh not right

My point is that DV is saying it is a fact at least one of you is town. That's not true from April's perspective, so either DV is trying to bullshit, or is implying they have inside knowledge. Like I said, reading comprehension.

[VP Baltar]

VP feels town so i don't really want to vote there

Malcolm is still a townread for me

i'd rather we get Yeet or Scorpius or April or Eyes today

How would you feel about a fire wagon? I don't think I'd want April or Yeet today most likely.

[VP Baltar]

like I can't say the the L word but people can say "scumfuck" and have 10 different accounts,just weird sometimes..

That word is definitely hurtful to some folks.

But if it makes you feel any better, this is the only account I've really played on. No alts here!

Flavor is open about his alts at least, so it's not too annoying.

[VP Baltar]

Well i am replace of Fua.

Deets you should know:

Math is confirmed Mason.

There is a hood of: Nero, skitter, Cap90, VP.

There's a lot of useless posting in this game (maybe even some from me in the last few pages while I was catching up, sorry all!)

april here is the replacement info post. also VP is claimed ascetic, enchant (fua) is claimed vig who tried to shoot me last night and nothing happened

here you go, new friends

We used to be such good friends!

Hi Titus! Hi Galron! Thanks for replacing.

Don't think I've ever played with both Titus and Math in the same game.

[VP Baltar]

it was a combination of the way you acted towards Tene during that bout, the gamestate momentum, and the

political placing you were in during the time.

April, I'm reading through your interactions with Malcom and your reasoning. Can you explain what you mean by this?

[VP Baltar]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Let's assume April's case against you is incorrect, why should that automatically mean town should be pressuring April?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, my general thought on the Malcom case after review: I think April is presenting a view of the game that makes some sense, but is largely dependent on a tene!town read. What I did like is that I'm seeing logical consistency from April as to why she is pushing it (also helps explain her Frogster town read), and if correct there is good potential to shift the dynamics of the game in a clearer scumhunting direction.

It's definitely not a slam dunk case, and parts of it are reaching over semantics ("actual evidence") than I probably would do. April, of course, is already admitting it isn't a slam dunk.

I may be willing to support April here given I do think the upside is significant. My hesitation is that I do think fire is much more likely to be scum, and his bail off of me at E-2 and onto Malcom is weird if you think of them as S-S.

[VP Baltar]

It's pretty overconfident to assume you can catch more than one at a time, imo. It's better to play the game we know is in front of us than one we can build up in our heads but might be fake.

Who is this referring to?

[VP Baltar]

You -- I'm saying let's worry about whether Malcolm is scum or not before we go assuming we know who his partners are if so.

Eh, maybe if Malcom is a strong scum read for me that logic applies, but if my leading scum read right now doesn't fit with Malcom scum, that's a negative point.

[VP Baltar]

Political placing is what people do when they need to be read a certain way by certain types of people. They're more focused on their positioning than catching scum, and while this can come from town, it's much more common to come from scum because they want to find a secure spot most of the time, and default to coasting until they have to make more action. It's one of the reasons I believe taking action before it's necessary is so important as scum.

Sorry, I mean specifically as it relates to Malcom. Where do you see him doing this?