Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over


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Post Post #350 (ISO) » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:26 pm

Post by darkdude »

Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.
Like I said before I thought Yvonne was scum because of the hellbent way she wanted me lynched, but now that she is dead and proven to be doctor I'm really lost.

Is it now a crime to admit that you don't have a clue about who the scum are? I'm not saying that I'm not trying though. Just that I don't have much success. This is partially due to the fact that everyone's focusing on me now, so there's not much to work on, as said I won't try to investigate myself. If I were not the lone suspect perhaps things would be better....
And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?
This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.
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Post Post #351 (ISO) » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:33 pm

Post by windkirby »

Well, I think DD's defense has been significantly improved, so I'm going to remove my
FOS
... for now...
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Post Post #352 (ISO) » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:27 pm

Post by Crub »

Fourth Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (4):
vikingfan, Cephrir, Pink Puppy, QuantumFruit
thevampireofdusseldorf (2):
windkirby, darkdude
Pink Puppy (1):
thevampireofdusseldorf

Not Voting (3):
zeddicus, Talitha, Akonas

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

I haven't been paying to much attention for the past 2 pages, will get onto prods today.
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Post Post #353 (ISO) » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:06 pm

Post by vikingfan »

darkdude wrote:
Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.
Like I said before I thought Yvonne was scum because of the hellbent way she wanted me lynched, but now that she is dead and proven to be doctor I'm really lost.

Is it now a crime to admit that you don't have a clue about who the scum are? I'm not saying that I'm not trying though. Just that I don't have much success. This is partially due to the fact that everyone's focusing on me now, so there's not much to work on, as said I won't try to investigate myself. If I were not the lone suspect perhaps things would be better....
And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?
This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.
Although this could also be considered WIFOMy since we think that and then he looks better later on for helping you with little . I'm still leaning toward you as scum though I'm still a little leery after the mozsuggs case. But I don't want to just play things off just because of the newb label...that rewards bad behavior. So I'm sticking with my vote for now.

I'm also not for forcing a claim at the moment. Though, there is this to be considered. Say we find through a claim that a vig is present. Then we can leave the vig alone and lynch somebody else. Then even if the mafia kill our vig (assuming he's telling the truth), the vig can still get a kill off and hopefully kill a mafia, assuming the mod arranges the kill in a proper way. If there is no duplicate kill, then we just lynch the vig. I'm not in favor of forcing any claim, but there are some that wouldn't absolutely kill the town.
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Post Post #354 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:28 am

Post by Akonas »

QuantumFruit wrote:
darkdude wrote: I don't think VoD has a good defense. He's basically saying that he made a mistake by accident and we should ignore it. To me the best way to deal with this is to push for more information.
This is tripe and horrible for town. There is nothing more to discuss on the issue, he can continue saying it was an accident and whoever doesn't believe him can not believe him and we can argue until we get a deadline and not focus on anyone else. Fine. That would be bad for town, whether he's scum or not, because even if we end up catching scum (and I don't feel like VoD is), we haven't paid attention to anyone else and we have nothing to go off of.
It's not tripe and horrible for town. There is something to discuss, which is our reactions to it. No, maybe we don't want to lynch him right away, but we want to see how he reacts to having votes on him. What you're arguing for is essentially to ignore the fact that he did something stupid/scummy.

Also, generally the reason for a claim is so that we don't lynch a pro-town power role; they have the possibility of being protected, and if they claim we'll lynch someone else instead (letting the scum do a NK rather than doing their work for them). It's kind of a last-ditch-before-we-kill-you type thing.


darkdude wrote: The conformity argument really disables any other defenses I may have had.
What's the conformity argument? That you think you will be screwed no matter what you do? That's not really so much of a problem... just say what you mean, who you think is scum, and you generally won't have too much of a problem.
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Post Post #355 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:40 am

Post by Pink Puppy »

darkdude wrote:
And I want people to think for themselves, even if it disagrees with me.
Well now if I change my mind and follow your advice I'll be more scummy right? ;)
lol.

I'm not trying to make it a catch-22 for you. I just thought it was weird how you listened to viking to vote. I see some possibilities that are scummy: either you were afraid to vote before and then thought it was safe to do so. Or else you felt bullied by viking and just gave into him to satisfy him. Either way it's weird to me.
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Post Post #356 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:08 am

Post by darkdude »

What's the conformity argument?
Originally I was pushing VoD because of my suspicions of his actions. Then I was told to "put my vote where my mouth was", so I did that, but then got criticized for conceding so easily. Then multiple people put up good reasons as to why I shouldn't have asked VoD to claim, and that doing so makes me scummy. If I stand my point I will appear scummy, and if I change my mind I'll still be scummy.
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Post Post #357 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:14 am

Post by Cephrir »

Akonas wrote:It's not tripe and horrible for town. There is something to discuss, which is our reactions to it. No, maybe we don't want to lynch him right away, but we want to see how he reacts to having votes on him. What you're arguing for is essentially to ignore the fact that he did something stupid/scummy.
I think you missed QF's point. Pressuring VoD more because of the supposedly accidental hammer is useless and retarded.
dd wrote:Originally I was pushing VoD because of my suspicions of his actions. Then I was told to "put my vote where my mouth was", so I did that, but then got criticized for conceding so easily. Then multiple people put up good reasons as to why I shouldn't have asked VoD to claim, and that doing so makes me scummy. If I stand my point I will appear scummy, and if I change my mind I'll still be scummy.
You're sort of right, in a way. Now that we realize this, we can choose not pursue that particular argument and focus on his having done it at all. But it was a scummy action that got you in the situation, dd.
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Post Post #358 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:01 pm

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

darkdude do you see now why pushing for a claim prematurely is a bad idea, unless someone is at L-1 or looking very certain for a lynch then there is no need for a claim.
I also a bit baffled by three different peoples comments about roles darkdude mentioning mansons & cop vikingfan mentioning vig and ciepher mentioning cop.
Ive also noted a couple of role related words mentioned by a couple of people, darkdude said I won't try to investigate myself and wk said my vote is my only weapon.
No as I have said earlier I am still new and only know certain aspects of the game so far, I have heard of role fishing but have not been able to find a good definition of it or how it is done/how it works so If someone could eplain this to me more fully that would be great.
I take the role related words from dd and wk to mean respectively I'm trying to say I'm cop and I'm trying to say I'm town, now I can understand wks rather blatant attempt to say I'm town (but it means mostly nothing but seems odd to use role related ideas in a post), I'm really not sure about what darkdude ment by this but I find it very odd.
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Post Post #359 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:31 pm

Post by Cephrir »

VoD wrote:ciepher mentioning cop.
I did? (I assume that's supposed to be my name, since nobody else's starts with a C :P )
VoD wrote:No as I have said earlier I am still new and only know certain aspects of the game so far, I have heard of role fishing but have not been able to find a good definition of it or how it is done/how it works so If someone could eplain this to me more fully that would be great.
I take the role related words from dd and wk to mean respectively I'm trying to say I'm cop and I'm trying to say I'm town, now I can understand wks rather blatant attempt to say I'm town (but it means mostly nothing but seems odd to use role related ideas in a post), I'm really not sure about what darkdude ment by this but I find it very odd.
It's pretty simple, really. Rolefishing is trying to find out someone's role or get hints as to it in a way that attempts to be subtle. Also, and this is one of my things that really annoy me, don't point out power role tells. Or vanilla tells. It only helps the scum, generally. Although I suppose it could, maybe, help the doctor, which is irrelevant seeing as we don't have one anymore.
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Post Post #360 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:40 pm

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

Yeah I ment you sory, well I can understand not wanting to point out power role tells but I find it strange a power role holder would put a tell in their posts or game style, obviously you would not want to give scum a chance to detect this. That is why I found dd's mention of investigate kinda wierd, as in I didnt understand why he would use that word. But I dont see any harm at putting a town tell in your post as scum already know that person to be town (presumably unless 2 scum groups or a sk).
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Post Post #361 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:31 pm

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

Ah vanilla tell yes true that helps scum, sorry bout that. I guess it best to keep all pro town role tells to myself.
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can we get your cattle prod on the bovine rumps of Talitha and zeddicus

Prodded zeddicus, Talitha + QuantumFruit get one more day. - Crub
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Post Post #362 (ISO) » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:13 pm

Post by Talitha »

Bovine rump??! Well i never....

Cephrir continues to rub me the wrong way, by saying that pressuring a player is useless and retarded. When people make comments like this it gives me the impression that they already know that person is town.

Sorry, I ran out of time to make a proper post about it tonight..
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Post Post #363 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:09 am

Post by darkdude »

Cephrir continues to rub me the wrong way, by saying that pressuring a player is useless and retarded.
I see, especially when the guys are pressuring me....

However I also think you are a bit suspicioius for lurking, and coming out immediately when lurking is brought up.
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Post Post #364 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:35 am

Post by Pink Puppy »

Talitha has been low-volume so far, but when she does say things, they make sense to me.
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Post Post #365 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:38 am

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VoD wrote:I find it strange a power role holder would put a tell in their posts or game style, obviously you would not want to give scum a chance to detect this.
It's often unintentional. Certain power roles have a tendency towards certain behavior, which I'm not going to talk about farther so as not to help scum choose an NK. Suffice it to say that I can remember at least one incidence where my (true) claim was believed based on stuff like that.
Talitha wrote:Cephrir continues to rub me the wrong way, by saying that pressuring a player is useless and retarded. When people make comments like this it gives me the impression that they already know that person is town.
What I meant is that we have already gained as much information as possible from that line of questioning and pursuing it farther isn't going to do any good.
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Post Post #366 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:17 am

Post by darkdude »

Talitha has been low-volume so far, but when she does say things, they make sense to me.
I remembered once when she also said that she'll contribute some more later but never did.

I think that's just a tad suspicious. Could easily be lack of time though.

Also, since you guys convinced me not to pressure VoD any more for now I'll
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Post Post #367 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:52 am

Post by vikingfan »

Talitha concerns me...she's said several times that she's busy but that she'll get to the game, and she still hasn't really done it yet. Please give us some more content, ASAP.
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Post Post #368 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:16 pm

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Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in, also yes talithas lack of decent sized posts does bother me but some of us do have busy lives so I 'm not saying this is suspicious yet.....but if it is an ongoing thing then is very noteworthy, and zeddicus has also been very quiet this game just went back and noted the most activity he has done was on the day moz was lynched......
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Post Post #369 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:26 pm

Post by Akonas »

Cephrir wrote:
Akonas wrote:It's not tripe and horrible for town. There is something to discuss, which is our reactions to it. No, maybe we don't want to lynch him right away, but we want to see how he reacts to having votes on him. What you're arguing for is essentially to ignore the fact that he did something stupid/scummy.
I think you missed QF's point. Pressuring VoD more because of the supposedly accidental hammer is useless and retarded.
I think you missed my point. It's not. Voting for him has a point. Note that I'm not voting him anymore; I'm arguing this more based on principle than on this particular case. The point is, voting who you think is most scummy is important. Putting on pressure on people who act scummy is important, and it helps get town information.
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Post Post #370 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:23 pm

Post by Talitha »

Hey, I'm not lurking. I have a real busy life (a busy job plus 3 young kids) and am trying hard to keep up with the game. But you shouldn't expect too much outta me during the week. Long weekend for Easter is coming right up so it's all good.
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Post Post #371 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:40 am

Post by Cephrir »

VoD wrote:Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in
If it's true, it's generally unintentional.
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Post Post #372 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:15 am

Post by QuantumFruit »

I got prodded! But I only posted a page ago. :( Also, this is going to be a really long post. I apologize, and brace yourselves.

Anyway...
@Akonas:
Akonas wrote: I just don't agree with your logic.

1. A good argument is one that makes its maker seem like town.
2. Scum would make a good argument, so as to seem town.
3. vampireofdusseldorf's argument is bad, therefore scum would not make it.
4. scum would not make it, therefore it is a good argument.
Proof by contradiction. One of those must be wrong (hint: it's 3); QED.
It's not a good argument, though, because most of us aren't buying it. A better argument would be knowing that it was the hammer vote and strongly feeling that mozsuggs was scum. Then we might ask for explanation, but it wouldn't look as scummy. The "I didn't know" crap makes VoD look like he's trying to get out of it and doing a bad job. This argument doesn't make him seem like town at all, it just seems like he's trying to be honest. He could still be town or scum, the argument he's making doesn't prove or disprove either.

@Talitha: Why are Cephrir and vikingfan suspicious to you?

@darkdude:
darkdude wrote: More like "Your attack can make any town into scum" but whatever.
GAHHHH!!!!! We're trying to find who scum is. How do you propose we do that, if not to "attack" whoever seems scummiest? (I'd prefer to use the word interrogate - attack is much to violent for the effect I'm employing.) You've already admitted that you see why you appear scummiest. Please use argument and logic, or point out why other people are suspicious - anything, really!

@Akonas:
Akonas wrote: Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum. Try to find who scum is and you will help town win. Worry overmuch about suspicion on you and you will just serve to clog up the works. I don't know whether you're scum or not; I'm getting some scum vibes, but the fact that people are suspicious of you DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET LYNCHED! So just put your head on your shoulders and PLAY THE GAME.
:applause: (Also, on his shoulders as opposed to his arse? - I think that's where mozsuggs said his was.)
Anyway, how strange that you've been more active than I have. I guess we can blame Civ IV for that.

@darkdude:
darkdude wrote: Well yes I know, but given the situation I think the priority right now is that I should avoid getting lynched, because if town loses 2 members by tomorrow it could be disastrous if there were 4 scum.
But you're not doing anything to avoid getting lynched!
darkdude wrote: Obviously you can suspect me due to scummy play, but Quantum Fruit stated that I was suspicious due to the fact that I pressured VoD while ignoring that I was also a good suspect (at least that's what I made of her statement). So simplified:

Case = I point fingers at people while ignoring possible signs of scum from myself
Counter = I did not need to concentrate on details against me if I were pro town
When did I do that? The way you accused VoD was when there was a bandwagon already forming and it seemed as though you were doing that to divert attention from yourself.

@VoD:
VoD wrote: I had a chace to put an L-1 vote on you that probably would have caused an even greater freak out
Are you afraid of looking more suspicious for similar behavior?
VoD wrote: I have not even completed a full game on this site yet but what has helped me to understand this "community culture" is reading through the forums or the wiki.
Yeah, I haven't completed a full game either. I haven't really read through the forums or the wiki either. Then again, Akonas has been playing for a while, so maybe that's why I'm used to it.

--

Hmm...I think I'll break the posts up a little. This is all in response to page 14. Now, I'll do 15 in another post.
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I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by
madness, starving hysterical naked...

--

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Post Post #373 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:31 am

Post by QuantumFruit »

@darkdude:
darkdude wrote: Just that I don't have much success. This is partially due to the fact that everyone's focusing on me now, so there's not much to work on, as said I won't try to investigate myself. If I were not the lone suspect perhaps things would be better....
You're like Saev in my newbie game. Actually, not a bad idea - try to analyze your actions and see how some stuff is scummy and some stuff isn't. Admit it when something you've done could be potentially scummy. It makes you look less like you're trying to cover your own ass and more like you're trying to make town make their own decisions based on the facts they have.

--

@Akonas: I'm not going to quote post 354 in its entirety, so I'll just reply. First of all, I don't feel like what VoD said in his "defense" was defense at all. I felt like he was just saying what had happened and apologizing for it and that's that. Neither he nor I advocated completely ignoring it, just looking at other stuff too because we were getting much too polarized on a minor detail. We'd all already discussed our reactions to it and the discussion was growing redundant. I don't disregard the fact that the whole situation is something to keep in mind. I completely think it is.

--

@VoD: I think darkdude's use of "investigate" just meant look into why his actions were scummy. I didn't pick it up as a hint he was cop until you'd said it. That makes sense and all, but I wouldn't expect that hint-dropping coming from him.
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--

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Post Post #374 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:39 am

Post by Pink Puppy »

thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in, also yes talithas lack of decent sized posts does bother me but some of us do have busy lives so I 'm not saying this is suspicious yet.....but if it is an ongoing thing then is very noteworthy, and zeddicus has also been very quiet this game just went back and noted the most activity he has done was on the day moz was lynched......
Now would be a good time to stop talking about power roles. As cephrir said, hints to a person's role are either unintentional or mafia setting up a claim for later. But the more you talk about it makes me uneasy.

Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.

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