Mini 566: Justice League Mafia Game Over

[cicero]

Sure. Here's the question, actr. Why aren't you asking more questions.

Right now you are just lurking through. Look at your posts - seriously, use the dropdown menus at the bottom of the page and look at them all - and compare them to my posts. What do you see?

So why don't you write a good long post. Somewhere between 100 and 1000 words outlining what you think of the game so far, and telling us your suspicions.

[Mr_Gnome_It_All]

Vote Count:

Thesp

(1) : roffman

cicero

(1) : Capricious

WhoMe?

(2) : actr, Thesp

roffman

(1) : Haschel Cedricson

Capricious

(3) : Sierra, WhoMe?, ZONEACE

actr

(1) : riktus

ZONEACE

(1) : Mirth

Haschel Cedricson

(1) : cicero

Not Voting:

Khelvaster

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Also, riktus has requested replacement. Now seeking.

[Khelvaster]

So, tell me again why we can't just have a mass nameclaim without the mass roleclaim? I am assuming everyone has a name, and the bad guys might have been stuck with "evil" names. On the chance that everyone has a good name, we lost nothing.

As I said in Mini 483 and 553, someone can prove this proposition utterly worthless right now by claiming a vanilla, nameless townie.

[ZONEACE]

you really didn't read the whole game did you.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote, Vote Khelvaster

.

The only thing somebody claiming vanilla townie would do is narrow down where the powerroles might be.

[Thesp]

Thesp: Why are you defending Capricious?

Because I think he's pro-town. Why else would I?

Thesp: why are you happy with your vote?

Because I think WhoMe? is scum.

So, tell me again why we can't just have a mass nameclaim without the mass roleclaim? I am assuming everyone has a name, and the bad guys might have been stuck with "evil" names. On the chance that everyone has a good name, we lost nothing.

How significant do you think that chance is?

mith said something once about vigging N0 - "Sometimes it is correct play - however, it is

rare

that the player can know it is correct play."

I think this is true with massclaims as well - it might be the right thing, but it's highly unlikely that you'll know it's the right thing. Without evidence to suggest otherwise, the town might be ruthlessly punished for a massnameclaim. Unless you have a good reason for a massnameclaim that goes beyond the standard arguments (i.e. I think you need an actual, role-based reason for it), I think massnameclaiming should be shelved, and even

if

you have a good role-based reason for doing so, you may want to consider whether it's worth coming out right away for the argument, because it probably isn't. (I am not in a position to make that determination.)

Can we get on with hunting WhoMe?'s partners?

[Thesp]

Also, this is what a massclaim would look like, anyway.

[Sierra]

Capricious, lets say there was a justice league cop, who did investigations, let's call him, saaaaay, a detective. Maybe even the world's greatest detective. What would that detective/cop's name be?

The last time i was in a justice league game i was batman and I was an Inventor, NOT THAT UNEXPECTED.

Lookee here, two people who are arguing against mass claiming had two different opinions about Batman's role. This is not convincing me at all. Who is to say Batman couldn't be a Vig, a mason, or just plain vanilla? The mod can twist the flavor however he wishes. I did not believe any power roles would be discovered through mass claiming, but that was my opinion. Maybe you guys have experience/flavor information that cause you to believe names could b associated with powers, whatever, I have none. So, I will stop pushing for a mass claim because we don't have unanimity.

the reason I seem wishy washy is that I am ambivalent as to whether a mass claim would be pro-town or anti-town. It all depends on information I don't have. Do the scum have safe claims? Would we be successful in getting them to claim first? Do the roles we have fit any sort of pattern etc etc. The point I had against Capricious, was him laying out all the reasons it was a bad thing for town, and then promoting it.

All I layed out was that we had a slim chance of something going good for us, while the scum appeared to me, at least to have an even slimmer chance to get something good in return. That was why I supported mass claim.

I'm very bothered by the fact that mass claiming is all we've heard about from Capricious this game. I'm not at all tempted to remove my vote from him.

Capricious, maybe you could drop the subject of mass claiming for a minute and tell me if you have any suspicions so far of people being scum? See if you can convince me to switch my vote to someone else.

[Mirth]

Also, this is what a massclaim would look like, anyway.

Maybe I'm being daft, but I don't get it?

Khelvaster, did you actually read the game? Because it's really not that long. And won't take that much effort. What with half the people not posting and all. Why are you continuing to beat the dead horse with the stick? I think we've sufficiently checked its pulse and come to the conclusion that its no more, its has ceased to be, its expired and gone to meet its maker.

[Capricious]

Capricious, lets say there was a justice league cop, who did investigations, let's call him, saaaaay, a detective. Maybe even the world's greatest detective. What would that detective/cop's name be?

The last time i was in a justice league game i was batman and I was an Inventor, NOT THAT UNEXPECTED.

Lookee here, two people who are arguing against mass claiming had two different opinions about Batman's role. This is not convincing me at all. Who is to say Batman couldn't be a Vig, a mason, or just plain vanilla? The mod can twist the flavor however he wishes. I did not believe any power roles would be discovered through mass claiming, but that was my opinion. Maybe you guys have experience/flavor information that cause you to believe names could b associated with powers, whatever, I have none. So, I will stop pushing for a mass claim because we don't have unanimity.

the reason I seem wishy washy is that I am ambivalent as to whether a mass claim would be pro-town or anti-town. It all depends on information I don't have. Do the scum have safe claims? Would we be successful in getting them to claim first? Do the roles we have fit any sort of pattern etc etc. The point I had against Capricious, was him laying out all the reasons it was a bad thing for town, and then promoting it.

All I layed out was that we had a slim chance of something going good for us, while the scum appeared to me, at least to have an even slimmer chance to get something good in return. That was why I supported mass claim.

I'm very bothered by the fact that mass claiming is all we've heard about from Capricious this game. I'm not at all tempted to remove my vote from him.

Capricious, maybe you could drop the subject of mass claiming for a minute and tell me if you have any suspicions so far of people being scum? See if you can convince me to switch my vote to someone else.

I am supposed to convince you to switch your vote? What does that even mean? That I should act in a manner to appear pro-town and righteous as you see fit? No, I should act in whatever manner I want that I deem right.
I already stopped pushing for mass claim, partly because Khelvaster brought up the only reasonable point against it: that some of the town might not have names.

Now: scumhunting

I was trying to scumhunt by getting us to mass claim. I see now how that might be a risky endeavor.

Sure. Here's the question, actr. Why aren't you asking more questions.

Right now you are just lurking through. Look at your posts - seriously, use the dropdown menus at the bottom of the page and look at them all - and compare them to my posts. What do you see?

So why don't you write a good long post. Somewhere between 100 and 1000 words outlining what you think of the game so far, and telling us your suspicions.

Cicero's point was alright: that he was trying to get actr to contribute more. His delivery though, appears to be trying to give a newbie the impression that post length= pro-townness. It's not hard to see how the newbie might be swayed that way.

Why would riktus soft-claim superman in his very first post? Unvote. Vote Riktus

Try to look townie much, evildoer?

subtle attempt to fish

Other good candidates for scum: take your pick of people on my wagon. Scum like reasonable wagons where they won't appear suspicious, and my wagon fits because I was arguing for mass claim: a play that is traditionally viewed as bad. Therefore, scum feels they can look justified to wagon me.

Good candidates for town: Riktus, his post restriction feels genuine, I already have a good idea of who he is, and would be surprised if he is not revealed as that character. This is also why we need a replacement for Riktus: to test his post restriction.

[WhoMe?]

Some of the town might not have names? Are you kidding me. Who in the justice league doesn't have a name? We all have names, even the scum I expect - tho their names will be Lex Leuthor etc etc

[Mirth]

Other good candidates for scum: take your pick of people on my wagon. Scum like reasonable wagons where they won't appear suspicious, and my wagon fits because I was arguing for mass claim: a play that is traditionally viewed as bad. Therefore, scum feels they can look justified to wagon me.

Good candidates for town: Riktus, his post restriction feels genuine, I already have a good idea of who he is, and would be surprised if he is not revealed as that character. This is also why we need a replacement for Riktus: to test his post restriction.

A. Riktus has 2 posts. 2. One cannot have a good idea of who is town from a whole 2 posts, most of which are flavor. It is also page 8.
B. Or, you know, you could be scum yourself, since that is who'd benefit most from a mass claim. You're also playing the "they voted me so they must be scum" card.

[Mirth]

Simulpost. Darn

Some of the town might not have names? Are you kidding me. Who in the justice league doesn't have a name? We all have names, even the scum I expect - tho their names will be Lex Leuthor etc etc

WhoMe, why did you just claim a named role? You don't know for a fact if the rest of us have names, and if we're smart about it, none of us are going to tell you.

[WhoMe?]

Simulpost. Darn

Some of the town might not have names? Are you kidding me. Who in the justice league doesn't have a name? We all have names, even the scum I expect - tho their names will be Lex Leuthor etc etc

WhoMe, why did you just claim a named role? You don't know for a fact if the rest of us have names, and if we're smart about it, none of us are going to tell you.

Yep, I did. This is because of what I believe about the game, though when I go back to read the initial post there is no confirmation of my belief, so my bad maybe. My belief is that we ALL have names. Good guys have justice league names, bad guys have bad guy names. I wouldn't be surprised if every good guy has a power relating to their name. Don't know if the same would apply for scum.

[WhoMe?]

from the opening post

It's a quiet day at the Justice League HQ. When you're suddenly blinded and knocked unconscious by a flash of light

how many nameless civvies do you suppose would be in Justice league HQ?

[cicero]

Heya capricious. Let me respond to your points concerning me:

Cicero's point was alright: that he was trying to get actr to contribute more. His delivery though, appears to be trying to give a newbie the impression that post length= pro-townness. It's not hard to see how the newbie might be swayed that way.

Interesting point. The underlying point here is that I'm trying to sway actr to think of me as town. Trust me when I tell you I dont think he'll be around long enough for that to matter. But more importantly, I've already been fairly abrasive with the chap, which in my experience makes newbs

more

willing to vote for me, not less. The real reasoning for me to say what I said to him is obvious on an honest reading. It is to make him post more. He's come in and written one line posts with no capitalisation or punctuation. Then he floats away again. He's clearly not engaged in the game and that makes actr, essentially, an empty seat. He may be worse because if he just quit we could replace him. If everytime we prod him he comes in and says something like:

again guys i am here this is my first forum only mafia game and i am trying to keep up if there are any questions for me just ask

We're stuck with that empty seat forever. I'm goading him into playing the game. Harshly. And people I'm rude to tend to be more inclined to vote for me not less. So your accusation here feels forced and therefore a bit dishonest. I'm also probably being grouchy with him because people who type on forums with no punctuation or caps kinda piss me off. It's disrespectful to your readers. This isn't an instant messenger, Actr. Please demonstrate your intelligence and engagement in the game by doing what I asked. Put some effort into this game please. That goes for everyone else floating by as well.

Why would riktus soft-claim superman in his very first post? Unvote. Vote Riktus

Try to look townie much, evildoer?

subtle attempt to fish

This is a very fair thing to say. But the thing you're missing (wilfully ignoring?) is that at that point in the game there was nothing else to talk about. We came out of random and that was the only "remarkable" thing I saw. So I talked about it. In truth, I didn't figure for a second it would catch him out because what he had said was so blatant, and what I said was so blatant that he could easily shield himself as a power role. I also figured anyone being that brazen in random was probably vanilla. Scum and power don't really

tend

to jump up and down and make a lot of noise at that point. The game is more to say something completely innocuous and get the fuck out of the random votes unquestioned.

So really, I was more looking for who would take up the bait and how. I guess I don't see how you could see any subtlety in what I wrote. I was very clearly grabbing what Riktus threw up to be grabbed. And I'm too experienced to have done it with the end result being "durrrh, maybe he'll break down and admit he's the [___insert Power Role___]. I figured I might take some heat for asking but I sort of wanted to.

Look, the things you mention above were done for one reason and one reason

only

. To get people talking. There's no rolefish subterfuge and no attempts to make my play seem more townie to a newbie. In fact, I'm taking a scummy hit for doing it. Quite deliberately. Either people talk or the game fucking dies. It really is that simple. I can't scumhunt until people say stuff. So I've had my poking stick out. Now we finally have some stuff to work with. Yaaaaay!

[Mirth]

how many nameless civvies do you suppose would be in Justice league HQ?

I'm not going to comment one way or the other other than you possibly said too much. Possibly not. Just wish you didn't say anything.

Cicero: why do you say you don't think actr will be around very long? Planning to kill him or something?

[Capricious]

Simulpost. Darn

Some of the town might not have names? Are you kidding me. Who in the justice league doesn't have a name? We all have names, even the scum I expect - tho their names will be Lex Leuthor etc etc

WhoMe, why did you just claim a named role? You don't know for a fact if the rest of us have names, and if we're smart about it, none of us are going to tell you.

Yep, I did. This is because of what I believe about the game, though when I go back to read the initial post there is no confirmation of my belief, so my bad maybe. My belief is that we ALL have names. Good guys have justice league names, bad guys have bad guy names. I wouldn't be surprised if every good guy has a power relating to their name. Don't know if the same would apply for scum.

This was my belief as well, and I, in my calculation of whether mass claim was beneficial, I left out the probability that some of the town might not be justice league members. That was the only detriment I saw.

Now, I see something else that has not been mentioned, and I've already dropped the mass claim issue.

[cicero]

Cicero: why do you say you don't think actr will be around very long? Planning to kill him or something?

I'd like it if people stopped asking blatantly dishonest questions. Actually no. Keep asking them. It gives me a bead on who the scum is. At this point I'm leaning toward you, Mirth. This is strike two on your dishonest posts meter.

In order to ask that question you need to assume that I am so profoundly stupid that I would announce my intention to kill him in the thread, thereby yelling out either "I'm a vigilante" or "Hi, I'm a member of scum" and wilfully ignore the context in which I said it.

The context of the post is obvious. I think he's not interested in the game and will eventually stop coming back to the board. As newbies often do. And I am challenging him to prove me wrong. How is that hard to see?

[Mirth]

The context of the post is obvious. I think he's not interested in the game and will eventually stop coming back to the board. As newbies often do. And I am challenging him to prove me wrong. How is that hard to see?

It's not so obvious if I have to ask. So you're saying its okay to be abrasive, just not in your general direction?

[cicero]

The context of the post is obvious. I think he's not interested in the game and will eventually stop coming back to the board. As newbies often do. And I am challenging him to prove me wrong. How is that hard to see?

It's not so obvious if I have to ask. So you're saying its okay to be abrasive, just not in your general direction?

But the question is: Did you really have to ask? Saying you had to is a restatement not an answer. Others will have to answer that. After all, what else would you say at this point?

Also, how is your point about my abrasiveness a paraphrasing of what exists in that quote box, Mirth, (or in any way implied by anything I wrote)?

[Mirth]

I did not have to ask, just as I do not have to do anything. But I wanted it clarified. And I wanted to get a reaction out of you. (I could have asked in a more neutral manner, agreed). Right now I'm still reaction testing, though.

My comment to abrasiveness is in reference to your post in response to Capricious about why you were "goading" actr "harshly". Perhaps I should have included context. Question still stands though

[cicero]

Now you've switched to word games.

You

used the phrase that you "had to ask" it was equivalent to insisting that clarification was needed.

On abrasiveness, obviously I'm not going to say "yes, I get to be abrasive to others and no one should be abrasive to me" so what are you trying to achieve? Your question was still a purely false paraphrase because it implies I'd been exercising a double standard, and there was no double standard for miles. I am abrasive when abrasiveness seems useful and polite as a general starting point. Actr's play rubs me the wrong way so he got my abrasiveness as an attempt to engage him in the game. Maybe you could play good cop and ask him nicely?

[Mirth]

No, *you're* playing the semantics game with me now. Clarificiation *was* needed. I never negated that. Your original statement was not clear enough, I believe. I could have asked for clarification neutrally, though, which I believe is your problem with my asking, since I chose to do so in a manner almost guarenteed to get you to react negatively.

Maybe I'm being abrasive to you because I can't make you out yet. It does worry me, however, that when I question you, and when Haschel questioned your motives before, you respond only with attacks. I have no opinion of actr as of yet, as he has said nothing remotely of value, and that registers as a null to me. I could ask him nicely to actually contribute, but I don't think he'll react either way, honestly.

[cicero]

No,you're the one playing word... ahh, nevermind.

It does worry me, however, that when I question you, and when Haschel questioned your motives before, you respond only with attacks.

First, I havent only attacked. I've answered the questions.

But I attack wherever and whenever I see people doing things that need attention. Especially at this point in the game. Once again, I'm not going to let the word OMGUS tie my hands. People should decide whether either your points against me or yours against you make sense. I

try

to avoid attacking people who attack me. But if the accusations seem blatantly disingenuous like yours and Haschel's I have a

responsibility

to point that out. Frankly of the three of you, Capricious's question about why I called out on Riktus seemed the most reasonable.

I also didn't have to make an issue of your question as I did. Safe play if I was scum would be to be non-confrontational. Unfortunately my job isn't survival it's scumhunting. So yeah - if I think you are full of shit prepare for a full blown OMGUSSING. But if I think your points are fairball, I'll be happy to concede points and explain things. Honestly, I have no problem with people suspecting me of things. Townies are in the dark. I'm just attacking when I think there are problems with the original questions. And I think that is fair.
Now - on the subject of clarification: You cant have it both ways. Were you asking a question for clarification? You clearly didnt need clarified that which you said you did. The question "are you planning to kill actr" presumed its answer. The answer was going to obviously be "no". Both because if I was going to kill actr, I wouldn't have answered yes to your question AND more importantly

if I was going to kill Actr I sure as shit would not have announced it in the thread.

So I called you on a provocative dumb question. And rightly so.

This is a small mini on Day one. Scum dont have the luxury of honestly scumhunting like they might in a large game with two or three factions. They (you?) have to throw crap and see what sticks. Therefore it is completely appropriate to point it out whenever I see someone throwing crap around.

Maybe I'm being abrasive to you because...

I didn't think you were being abrasive to me nor did I accuse you of it. Again you have a way of switching the subject ever so slightly.

I also have no opinion of actr yet. I am quite decidedly not accusing him of being scum. I am merely trying to get him and others to contribute to the game. I will say though that I have been called "Captain Anti-Lurker" on this site so the longer people try to float under the radar on day one, the more likely I am to turn my cannon on them.